Scotland's future

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Mind-blowing rebuttal.

"I was in Ireland for a week and it's the same as England" doesn't deserve much of a rebuttal.

[Zetetic]

Not sure that Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Montenegro or Macedonia would agree with that assertion, (although maybe Montenegro would still, the cucks).

Serbia was nowhere near dominant in the way that England is - that Yugoslavia's experience was what it was should be demonstrative, but with the caveat that for many reasons Britain's is going to be far worse.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

"I was in Ireland for a week and it's the same as England" doesn't deserve much of a rebuttal.

That's not even close to what was said, so perhaps rather than wasting my time, making yourself look like a grandstanding glib prick in the process, why not engage in a even perfunctory bout of basic comprehension (not to mention good faith) before interacting with me in future.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Serbia was nowhere near dominant in the way that England is.

This is your argument and assertion, so the burden falls on you to make it, please expand.

(Sorry to put you out, but I have no reason from what I have read, along with my personal interests in the region's history to just take your word for it.)

[Zetetic]

41% vs 84% for a start.

[Cuellar]

I don't feel British because I don't like football

[TrenterPercenter]

That's not even close to what was said, so perhaps rather than wasting my time, making yourself look like a grandstanding glib prick in the process, why not engage in a even perfunctory bout of basic comprehension (not to mention good faith) before interacting with me in future.

The poster is being needlessly aggressive/glib but I have to say the idea that people in Ireland identify as culturally British is rather something; though I don't think this is quite what you meant.

My Grandad for example was a massive Man Utd and Ferguson fan but if you suggested he was culturally British he'd cut your balls off.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The poster is being needlessly aggressive/glib but I have to say the idea that people in Ireland identify as culturally British; I don't think this is quite what you meant though.

My Grandad for example was a massive Man Utd and Ferguson fan but if you suggested he was culturally British he's cut your balls off.

Absolutely, the poster went further and says I claimed they are 'the same'. This is clearly nowhere near what can fairly be interpreted even if you failed to apply a minimum level of good faith and assume that no-one would actually say that.

National and regional identities are keenly felt and identity is a source of pride, pride props up people's self-worth and shapes their identity. Obviously an Irish person may feel offended if their identity is perceived as diluted. I apologise to anyone reading if that's how it came across and will try to expand.

In any context, globally, continentally, Ireland is within a group of countries that has distinctive differences that form a legitimate national identity but also is within an umbrella of shared cultural experiences, traditions and values that spans the British Isles, one that can be experienced in everyday life and recognised without needing the say so of anyone's Grandad.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

That's not even close to what was said so perhaps rather than wasting my time, making yourself look like a grandstanding glib prick in the process, why not engage in a even perfunctory bout of basic comprehension (not to mention good faith) before interacting with me in future.

I mean dude I'm not the one who cited Kerry people talking about English soccer teams as proof of a shared British cultural blah. We play and follow sports that aren't even on your radar. Our class system is totally different. Our "cities" are way smaller than yours. We're almost monocultural/monoethnic because of centuries of emigration, which also enables us to hide our racism better (not enough black or brown people around to hate). Moving beyond cultural differences, our system of voting is different. Hereditary titles aren't awarded here. We're 100 years out from you now, apart from the North, and we've done a lot of work to repair and preserve a distinctive culture that was utterly decimated because of an agricultural disaster that was horribly mismanaged by a foreign government that cared more about capitalism than human suffering. You call me a glib grandstanding prick? You think you know about Ireland because you were here on your holidays, what do you call that?

ps I love that I'm being characterised as aggressive when I didn't even swear or insult anyone.

EDIT:

National and regional identities are keenly felt and identity is a source of pride, pride props up people's self-worth and shapes their identity. Obviously an Irish person may feel offended if their identity is perceived as diluted. I apologise to anyone reading if that's how it came across and will try to expand.

Oh okay so you knew this anyway and still decided to call me a glib grandstanding prick, nice.

[robhug]

Presume you still agree that just like how the large numbers of Scottish, Welsh, Irish people living in England can participate in English elections, English people should get a say if they happen to be legally resident in another country. Further still, that they should be allowed to live in Wales pre or post future independence.

Because otherwise its just a few small steps from there to 'Wales for the Welsh' and very ugly, flawed nationalist nonsense.

Im saying population percentage-wise the chances of Wales voting for independence are extremely  unlikely if you consider its a small population overall with a significant percentage of that small population being ethnic english (if such a thing exists). If Scotland departs and there's a referendum which will virtually be 'should Wales be Independant from england?' youd be up against 20%+ of the population voting against it just because their english, and not whether its the best thing to do for Wales. Scotland doesn't have some of its largest conurbations very near the english border so I would say its nowhere near as pronounced. 

[TrenterPercenter]

But it's just that people in Dubai and ME love the premier league but we don't think of them as culturally British. 

Obviously an Irish person may feel offended if their identity is perceived as diluted. I apologise to anyone reading if that's how it came across and will try to expand.

I actually do think there are a lot of crossovers with Ireland and UK though, we have a shared history of a sorts.  I don't think any apology is required but I also don't think the Irish see Britishness as diluting their identity; they don't see themselves as coming from Britain in the first place.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

I don't think any apology is required but I also don't think the Irish see Britishness as diluting their identity; they don't see themselves as coming from Britain in the first place.

Yeah just as a general rule don't call Irish people British unless they're Unionists.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

But it's just that people in Dubai and ME love the premier league but we don't think of them as culturally British. 

I actually do think there are a lot of crossovers with Ireland and UK though, we have a shared history of a sorts.  I don't think any apology is required but I also don't think Irish see Britishness as diluting their identity; they don't see themselves as coming from Britain in the first place.

Yes agreed and it's not necessary to point that out or really fighting against anything I am trying to say. The point I will repeat is that cultural traditions are a series of layers some spread over small areas thickly, some spread over larger areas, thinly, and when comparing Ireland to its immediate neighbours there is a series of shared cultures, even excluding large parts of England and for better or worse a history of being ruled over that can't be removed, with a legacy that will be present for a century at least. These are hugely significant when comparing their relationship with their neighbours to many other independent states. It doesn't make them any less independent, nor by conceding this does it make anyone any less Irish.

Yeah just as a general rule don't call Irish people British unless they're Unionists.

Good job I didn't. Perhaps more importantly than ever, when in doubt (for example, the sort of doubt whether a grown man would directly claim an Irish person was basically British) apply a modicum of good faith on the part of the poster. That will compensate for any lack of comprehension and avoid leaving the impression that you can't understand the contents of sentences.

[Kankurette]

I AM ENGLISH but my dad was Scottish so if you guys break away, and I would totally not blame you if you did, I'm applying for dual nationality.

Wouldn't Spain oppose Scotland joining the EU because it might give the Catalans Ideas?

[bgmnts]

ENGLISH SCUM SPEAKING BELOW:

These countries have existed prior to the Union and do today, your preference in the sentence below is something that already exists.

If you are talking about a change in how the states are governed and wanting not only devolved government (seemingly relatively successful for Wales and Scotland, less for for N. Ireland) but full independence then that will not change your daily life or others hugely, though I concede it may still be preferable as a notion for you.

You will continue to be culturally British until the day you die, whether that is a source of pride, shame or whatever, just as someone Yorkshire born and bred will have different cultural traditions to someone from the West Country, but far more in common with them. Mutually intelligent shared language, similar geography and climate, similar pastimes and occupations, similar villages, towns and cities. This is something really reinforced on my trip to County Kerry, a long way from Westminster but the locals were talking about the Palace v Brighton game, and in all real senses part of a British Isles cultural umbrella that includes distinctive regional/country differences but an unusually similar shared day to day existence and commonality. If the government of the day is not trying to crush your expression then the only real practical question is what shape should that government take. I agree that the UK as a concept and Britain as a concept can be progressive and posseses lots of fine elements, just as the very flawed EU does, just as the very flawed Yugoslava did.

I would never question your own feelings in your heart as to your identity, but where direct political resentment is concerned it's important to direct the anger where it is deserved and that is at an unrepentant, unreforming, crooked London centric elite, in which case you have the same enemy as most of England does, and we should all club together to defeat it and come out the other side together too.

What is culturally British?

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Good job I didn't.

Good job I was replying to Trenter, wasn't it. Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension so as to avoid looking glib and prickish.

[Zetetic]

41% vs 84% for a start.

Serbia was roughly twice the size of Croatia. England is roughly 10x the size of Scotland.

The entire post-Tito setup of executive power next (vs the UK where the only relationships in executive power at the UK-level are explicitly unidirectional from the 80%-English Westminster admin at the devolved admins).

Everything about the breakup of Yugoslavia that shows the extent to which the republics had and were able to build distinct bases of power in a way that the UK thoroughly forbids and undermines.

[TrenterPercenter]

Just as aside one of the most Irish things I've experienced[nb]well that and my auntie delores insisting I eat a cake about the size of my head with each cup of tea she gave me - but that is standard[/nb] is my auntie Mary taking me upstairs to show me her new boiler that allowed her to have hot water whenever she wanted in any room of the house

"Would ya look at dat"
- Oh yes
"Just look at it dere"
- very nice
"look at the pipes though"
- It is very good
"dat's de proper stuff dat, real copper"
- Nice
"Look at it dere"


It was very impressive tbf tbs

[Zetetic]

Again on Yugo vs UK:
There is nowhere in the UK that competes with the Anglo-UK capital in terms of economic significance, but actual and perceived. Scotland is considerably better off regarding this (and diverse forms of capital) but Edinburgh-Glasgow still pales in comparison to London. Wales and NI have nothing like the economic areas of significance that Croatia, Slovenia and even Bosnia did - that same broadly goes for intellectual/political/civic capacity.

A neat example of the latter is looking at British healthcare think-tanks and charities, and how there is almost no serious interrogation of healthcare outside of "the NHS" (sic) in England.

[Zetetic]

Transport networks in Yugo and UK provide a neat insight, with the latter showing a broad orientation towards delivering labour and goods towards England - Wales is the most extreme example, of course, where geography reinforces rather than acts against this tendency.

[mothman]

IT'S COMPLICATED (Half Scottish, half... well, that would be to give too much away, not English - or even British - as such, though from originally English expatriate stock)

I guess in a way I'd prefer the U.K. to remain as is, because it's what I've always known? Though I appreciate that if people don't want to remain a part of something, they shouldn't be compelled to.

The thing that annoys me is that if a line is drawn, I'll be left on the side of it that has all the cunts. Would be interested to know whether having a Scottish father would grant me any immigration rights. I have a certain set of skills (honed over a long career, etc.) that a young nation is going to need...

And the thing that makes me uneasy about anything like this is, what about the Remain-Britishers in Scotland? What happens to them? They get told to either suck it up or fuck off? Isn't that a double standard given a large part of the SNP's current attack lines are that Scotland didn't vote for Brexit? By that same logic parts of Scotland that vote to remain in the U.K. should have the right to opt out of independent Scotland. But that argument runs slap bang into the nationalist ones.

So what happens? Partition along impossible-to-get-right geographic lines like India in 1947, or like in Ireland? Leading to forced migrations and all sorts of other horrors, and/or a residual population of pro-U.K. Scots who suddenly feel like second-class citizens in the country they'd (thought they'd) known their whole lives up to then?

And - I can't believe cynical misanthropic old me is asking this -is carving the world up into increasingly Balkanised ghettoes really the way to go? Shouldn't we all just try to get along?

[Jerzy Bondov]

I AM ENGLISH (I don't really think of myself as English but I grudging accept that I basically am) and of fucking course the UK needs breaking up. Are you joking? It's a fucking nightmare and has been since it was put together. Think of all the evil done in the name of Britain, not just around the world but right here. We need to own up, accept we're the baddies, and listen when people say they want to get away from us. Of course this will never ever happen.

I'll be very jealous when Scotland and NI get away from this shit show

[Old Nehamkin]

And the thing that makes me uneasy about anything like this is, what about the Remain-Britishers in Scotland? What happens to them? They get told to either suck it up or fuck off? Isn't that a double standard given a large part of the SNP's current attack lines are that Scotland didn't vote for Brexit? By that same logic parts of Scotland that vote to remain in the U.K. should have the right to opt out of independent Scotland. But that argument runs slap bang into the nationalist ones.

So what happens? Partition along impossible-to-get-right geographic lines like India in 1947, or like in Ireland? Leading to forced migrations and all sorts of other horrors, and/or a residual population of pro-U.K. Scots who suddenly feel like second-class citizens in the country they'd (thought they'd) known their whole lives up to then?

Gonna take a wild guess that this would not happen.

[Cuellar]

a residual population of pro-U.K. Scots who suddenly feel like second-class citizens in the country they'd (thought they'd) known their whole lives up to then?

Tough

[Zetetic]

There will clearly be substantial Anglo-British populations (and Anglo-British-owned economic and strategic assets) left in Scotland and Wales following any independence in the near future, and these will be part of the international justification for English interventions in the subsequent decades.

Edit: One of the more hilarious suggestions in Welsh independence advocacy is that Wales uses English dependence on Welsh water as leverage, when of course in reality all this will do is provide a pretext for the death squads to operate more openly with explicit state support.

[poo]

not bothered really

[bgmnts]

Oh and for the record, unless you're like high up in the mountains or hills in the northwest, you're probably going to be quite Anglicised in most of Wales anyway. So it's not like Wales for the Welsh it's just i dont know a bit of agency and not having to bow down to posh over privileged cunts in another nation.

[Gurke and Hare]

And the thing that makes me uneasy about anything like this is, what about the Remain-Britishers in Scotland? What happens to them? They get told to either suck it up or fuck off?

In the sense that this is just an inflammatory way of writing "accept the result of a democratic vote or choose, of their own free will, to move." then yes.

[katzenjammer]

If Brexit is anything to go by requiring a super majority would be a good idea.

[Zetetic]

Ukraine's independence referendum in 1991 had 92% in favour with an 84% turnout, if you're trying to work out what cutoffs guarantee a stable future.