It's still under construction, so please bear with me
Started by Bigfella, October 06, 2021, 09:39:51 AM
Quote from: All Surrogate on October 07, 2021, 02:20:37 PMYou're equating England with the UK/Britain, and implying that all the 'evil' done by the British Empire etc. is the sole responsibility of english people, and that scottish people were completely innocent. That isn't the case. Scottish people were intimately involved in the building of the empire, and it's arguable that the scottish independence movement in part grew out of the decline of the British Empire and the loss of the benefits that it provided to Scotland.It's also worth bearing in mind that a major reason that the Union occurred was because Scotland's own attempt to build an empire, the Darien Scheme, had failed. By forming the Union, Scotland got to biggy-back on the growing english colonial system; having an empire was an attraction of the Union for Scotland, not a detraction. The reason Glasgow flourished is the same reason that Liverpool did: building ships to transport slaves (and other things, of course).
Quote from: Blinder Data on October 07, 2021, 01:14:28 PMIf it helps, feel free to replace Royal Mail with any UK government service (DVLA, HMRC, MOD, etc.).
Quote from: Clatty McCutcheon on October 07, 2021, 03:53:17 PMI wouldn't disagree with too much in your first paragraph, although not sure about the decline of the British Empire being much of a factor in the Scottish independence movement, unless you take a very broad interpretation of 'loss of empire' as part of the mix of circumstances that led to industrial decline in the 20th C.It's fair to say that much of your second paragraph caused my eyebrows to raise just slightly, though. You make it sound as if the Scots were just delighted to be able to join the Union and get in on the Empire action, rather than the Union having been negotiated by a gang of Scottish aristos for their own benefit, with England playing a pretty major role in manoeuvring Scotland into that position (including by deliberately undermining the Darien scheme). The Union was very unpopular in Scotland for quite a long time afterwards, and while there were benefits of Union/Empire for some, there was also military subjugation of large parts of Scotland, depopulation and mass emigration, and deliberate destruction of Scottish social structures and traditions.h
Quote from: Clatty McCutcheon on October 07, 2021, 03:53:17 PM... negotiated by a gang of Scottish aristos for their own benefit ...
Quote from: All Surrogate on October 07, 2021, 08:43:39 PMWell, of course. But that's an argument against aristocracy, rather than for or against union. Do you think the english aristos operated in order to benefit the common english people?
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