Polexit

[Buelligan]

Really don't want to feed anything here but I'm really not comfortable with someone trying to imply the current criminalisation, murder and abuse of LGBTQ people in Russia and Saudi Arabia are consummate to the EU under the guise of some silly misanthropic woo-woo about humans.

No need to reply Buelligan; just wanted to register my rejection of such a statement.

No worries, Trenter, I don't even understand what you're saying, you nasty little goblin.

[TrenterPercenter]

No worries, Trenter, I don't even understand what you're saying, you nasty little goblin.

No worries, you tend to not understand things when it suits. 

I wasn't asking for your approval on anything either; I think most people can see equating the human rights of LGBTQ people in Russia and Saudi Arabia to the EU is pretty repulsive.

We'll leave it there. Cheers.

[Buelligan]

No one is equating it, in the sense of suggesting they are equal.  Quite the opposite.  Try reading what I said again but dial down the hatred.

[bgmnts]

The problem lies with humans, humans with their religions, their narrowness, their fear of anything they can't control or don't understand.  It's not exclusive to the EU any more than it is to Russia or Saudi Arabia.  In fact, I have a gay friend in Russia right now trying hard to get to the freedom of the French EU.

When I was in Morocco there were so many young women in the English classes I volunteered at who were dying to go and live in Canada or some such place just because it's unbearable where they are.

Poland doesn't seem that bad in comparison I suppose.

[Shit Good Nose]

.

They're probably slightly better than Neo-Liberal on wealth distribution, but are very Christian-right, anti gay "all gays are paedophiles" etc), anti immigrant, anti free speech - they attempted to force through a law that all media companies had to be Polish which would basically benefit one channel that is overwhelmingly staffed by pro-PIS people and never runs anything negative about them. The foreign-owned channels are the ones that tend to call them out on their shit. Anti-abortion, anti-women's rights.

I get this mostly from my partner, so I'm not the most knowledgeable about it, but basically they're a bunch of corrupt, old, religious bigots.

I have several Polish friends (some of them living in Poland), and yes - this.

It's a funny old place - I'm massively over-simplifying (MASSIVELY), but as I understand it 50% of the government is so conservative that it makes the tories look like Corbyn's wet dream, whilst the other 50% would make Corbyn go "ooff, a bit commie there".  When it comes to the population, no of course they're not all right-wing racist mentalists stuck in the past, and it's fair to say that most of them (apparently an overwhelming majority) want to remain in the EU as they've seen everything that has gone wrong with the UK's brexit. 

A couple of my Polish friends think it's just hot air and the media adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 5, but my cautionary response to them was that most Brits never thought for one second that we would actually vote to leave.  And look what happened there...

Poland doesn't seem that bad in comparison I suppose.

Poland ISN'T that bad, BUT I think it does depend on where you live. 

All of my Polish friends who either live in the UK or have lived in the UK say, without exception, their health care system is much better (important to note that it doesn't work the same way as the NHS, but it's something they bring up regularly, especially when it comes to waiting times for certain things) and the cost of living is more "sensible" is the word they like to use.  None of them are on, or have been on, any state benefits or anything so I can't speak for that with any knowledge. 

LOTS of military presence on almost every border, and regular maneuvers as well, which don't tend to get reported.

[Huxleys Babkins]

All of my Polish friends who either live in the UK or have lived in the UK say, without exception, their health care system is much better (important to note that it doesn't work the same way as the NHS, but it's something they bring up regularly, especially when it comes to waiting times for certain things) and the cost of living is more "sensible" is the word they like to use.  None of them are on, or have been on, any state benefits or anything so I can't speak for that with any knowledge.

I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

Polish healthcare is largely privatised, but quite inexpensive. There's no healthcare megacorp/insurance setup designed to keep prices high as you'd find in the US. And because Poles are largely no nonsense, they don't see the value in expensive hospitals that operate like luxury hotels. There's also healthcare professionals everywhere, so there's plenty of choice and availability. My ex once saw a gynaecologist who was operating out of a block of residential flats. All licensed, nothing dodgy, just no requirement for fancy commercial property, the savings passed onto the patient.

However, because it is still for profit, there's quite the culture of the customer always being right. Most of my Polish friends will moan because UK doctors "don't want to help" their kids, but what they really mean is that they are used to taking their kids to see doctors in Poland and paying them for antibiotics for colds, or ultrasound scans for a tummy ache. There might be a large number of doctors working in one city, so none of them want to get a reputation for being difficult or unhelpful and lose patients as a result.

Also, the big drug companies have their claws in over there and generic meds aren't particularly popular over there. Too many doctors and pharmacies getting kickbacks. Walk into a hospital and there will be ads for big brand painkillers all over the waiting room walls. That's not to say that doctors will prescribe you stuff you don't need, but they won't be doing much to reduce your bill at the pharmacy.

And, as a final point, I really wouldn't want to be having a serious mental health issue over there. They are still a long, long way behind the curve on that front.

[TrenterPercenter]

And, as a final point, I really wouldn't want to be having a serious mental health issue over there. They are still a long, long way behind the curve on that front.

MH care is still in the dark age in lots of places; best place for MH easily is Australia absolute light years ahead, Canada is pretty good as is Ireland, Netherlands, Japan, UK are actually relatively decent but still massively underfunded.

I've got quite a few Romanian and Czech friends and they all say UK has got problems but it is much better on LGBTQ and racism; my Czech friend was telling me how it is not everywhere in the country but in some places it is really bad especially against the Roma community.

[chveik]

the EU doesn't care that much about human right infrigements, compared to economic growth and whatnot.

[Zetetic]

In fairness, it's often been unable to deal with either Article 2 violations or specific holdouts against (e.g.) competition law in the single market.

Unless there's another member state that really gives a fuck, for better or worse. But this brings us back to the same pre-Brexit stuff, of course.

[monkfromhavana]

Poland ISN'T that bad, BUT I think it does depend on where you live. 

All of my Polish friends who either live in the UK or have lived in the UK say, without exception, their health care system is much better (important to note that it doesn't work the same way as the NHS, but it's something they bring up regularly, especially when it comes to waiting times for certain things) and the cost of living is more "sensible" is the word they like to use.  None of them are on, or have been on, any state benefits or anything so I can't speak for that with any knowledge. 

LOTS of military presence on almost every border, and regular maneuvers as well, which don't tend to get reported.

On the first point, you have their equivalent of our north/south divide, but theirs is west/east (or as it's jokingly known by the Poles I know, "Poland A" & "Poland B". Poland A falls more under the German influence and is generally richer, Poland B is more Russian-influenced, poorer and far more industrial. PIS probably get more support from Poland B and from rural/village communities.

I never had to use Polish healthcare when I lived there, but it seems that it runs pretty smoothly, but is very much a 2-tier system. I don't know anyone who had to use the state health service (which is free) over there, but I think it's pretty limited and with long waiting times, although it'll get the job done. As for mental health, I know someone who had/has some issues with this (Polish). I can only speak for their case, but the doctors were very reticent to prescribe brain pills, but instead got sent to a psychologist first (and still sees), and spent some time in a mental health institution (I visited them there, it was fine). Then after all that they were prescribed brain pills along with continual visits to see a psychologist (can't say whether this was private or not), so it's not that bad for mental health.

Legally they have some good things, if you're renting a property it's very difficult for the landlord to kick you out, and if you're pregnant or have a young child it's basically illegal for them to kick you out, whether you pay the rent or not. However, the cops are cunts.

There can still be quite a lot of issues with regards to racism, if you're black you're probably going to get a bit of verbal racism every day. I had an adult student (in 20s) say the word "n*gger" in class and didn't seem to quite get it when I told her that that wasn't acceptable language to use in any circumstance.

*Edit* Also regarding the cost of living, if pretty much all of your energy comes from burning coal and you don't give a fuck about pollution or the environment, then yeah, your bills are going to be pretty cheap.

[Catalogue of ills]

the EU doesn't care that much about human right infrigements, compared to economic growth and whatnot.

I think this is right, and the primary evidence is that Slovakia is able to run a nakedly apartheid education system against Roma people in full view, and no-one in the supposedly liberal EU really gives a shit. It's what helps me feel not too bad about Brexit.

[bgmnts]

I thought a big reason for leaving the EU was people earnestly having concerns about being ruled by Brussels? Seems they have a pretty hands off, laissez faire attitute to me.

I wonder if Brexit cunts will ever go full mask off and just day yeah I hate forrins.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

With regard to cost of living, most of the Polish people I know came to Ireland for economic reasons. My youngest sister turned down a job teaching English over there because she did the maths and her pay was so low that she'd only be scraping by.

According to one of my friends the old age pension there is really low. His 80+ year old mother is being kept afloat by him and his other siblings, who send her money regularly to supplement her income. And this is not a woman with expensive tastes, this is a woman who in his words is happy with a potato for dinner.

I sympathise with the idea that we should turf countries with oppressive regimes out of the EU. But that doesn't do anything to help the people living under those regimes, and also those regimes might be overthrown, you never know. Don't forget that the Brexit referendum was a nearly 50-50 split. And don't forget that when Ireland joined the EEC, divorce and abortion were illegal.

[Buelligan]

I agree.  I think, with this kind of shit, opening mental doors to ideas like women having rights over their own bodies - and people discovering how this improves their own lives, how flying in the face of right wing authoritarianism, patriarchy and religion, can succeed.  How rebellion makes their lives and the lives of people they love, so much better - well, once one gate creaks open, once one gatekeeper's overrun, it's the floodgates next.  Those spritual, cultural, mental floodgates.  Blowing the bloody doors off. 

The EU, the human rights laws, shit like that is the toe in the door.  That's what a lot of the exit shit is about.  Keeping the little people penned up, separated, isolated and dominated.  Keeping the door to rights and choice and freedom firmly locked.  Because once they see through one lie, one repression, who knows where the axe will fall?

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

I agree.  I think, with this kind of shit, opening mental doors to ideas like women having rights over their own bodies - and people discovering how this improves their own lives, how flying in the face of right wing authoritarianism, patriarchy and religion, can succeed.  How rebellion makes their lives and the lives of people they love, so much better - well, once one gate creaks open, once one gatekeeper's overrun, it's the floodgates next.  Those spritual, cultural, mental floodgates.  Blowing the bloody doors off. 

The EU, the human rights laws, shit like that is the toe in the door.  That's what a lot of the exit shit is about.  Keeping the little people penned up, separated, isolated and dominated.  Keeping the door to rights and choice and freedom firmly locked.  Because once they see through one lie, one repression, who knows where the axe will fall?

Also, on a more practical level, EU membership also grants freedom of movement. We throw out Poland and we make it harder for LGBTQ Polish citizens to move somewhere where they have better protection.

[peanutbutter]

MH care is still in the dark age in lots of places; best place for MH easily is Australia absolute light years ahead, Canada is pretty good as is Ireland, Netherlands, Japan, UK are actually relatively decent but still massively underfunded.

I've never heard anything particularly positive about the country's actual mental health services and the barrier of having to pay 50 euro to see the GP to get things rolling at all is surely enough to undo a lot of it anyway.

I would say having considerably better social security for the less well off is probably enough to outstrip basically anything the UK has in terms of mental health care thats better on aggregate though

[Gregory Torso]

Just on that whole whale-killing thing.  Imagine, a world where there was a land creature bumbling about right now, today, chatting to its friends and family, living off of gnats, a land creature far bigger than even the biggest dinosaur that ever lived and people were driving around firing missiles at them.  Imagine how popular it would be if the slaughter of these intelligent, gentle, giants took place right in front of the kiddies instead of hidden behind miles of empty ocean.

Can't be arsed reading the rest of this thread but I really enjoyed imagining a herd of whales walking around through the grasslands talking to each other absent mindedly bursting those fat trees full of water they have there, cheers. Although it was followed by sadness, knowing that they would immediately be hunted to extinction by dentists and solicitors on murder holidays. I bloody love whales. I think they might be my favourite animals, after albatrosses.

[Buelligan]

Absolutely agree.  I implore you, Torso, everyone who is not Torso too, read Olga Tokarczuk's Drive Your Plow Over the Bones of the Dead immediately.  I may have mentioned this before but I do not apologise.

[The Mollusk]

This is the thing, re: the EU. How supportive are they of LGBT+ rights, really?

You never see them changing their logo for pride month do you? Now that I think about it, they sicken me.