I hear you're an IRA supporter now, Nigel Farage.

[Wonderful Butternut]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_European_Constitution_referendum

Unlike Britain, though, the Irish leaders just forced them to vote again until they got the result they wanted.

Ah yes, the referendum where the government just assumed it would go through and made no fucking effort to explain the benefits, or even what it was. Your Local TD says "Vote Yes" was deemed enough as a campaign approach. 'They shouldn't have just made them vote again' is a valid line of argument, but it'd be a stretch to view that as some sort of fundamental rejection of the European Union by Irish electorate.

[Pranet]

It's not like nationalist sentiment elsewhere.  It really isn't.

Yeah nationalists never claim that their nation is uniquely virtuous.

[derek stitt]

I think one of the things that made Brexit possible was the fact that there is a sizeable tranche of the British population (right and left) who actually believe somewhere deep down inside that, by dint of being British (English) they're better[nb]naturally equipped and destined to be in charge of the world[/nb] than everyone else.  They should've been in charge of the EU, they can't take rules or orders from lower orders[nb]people who are not them[/nb] and nothing bad can happen to them as a nation, whatever arseholery they get up to, because of who they are.  I don't think there are many dickheads like that in Ireland.

There, I've said it.

What an incredibly English thing to say.

[Paul Calf]

It's not like nationalist sentiment elsewhere.  It really isn't.

The Irish are not filled with the belief that they, rightly, should be running what goes on in Belgium or Lithuania.  Irish nationalists want to control and run their own country, they don't believe they should be at the top table in any and all things domestic and international.

If you think this is a uniquely British phenomenon, a visit to India or Thailand will dispel this. Irish and Scottish nationalism is how nationalism is born; it grows ugly as it ages. It's not better or different, only newer. You could look at Israel for an example: a project born in optimistic, welcoming hope that has ended in apartheid.

It's also worth reminding ourselves that the campaign for Irish nationalism already has a substantial civilian body count.

[earl_sleek]

It's seems pretty strange to believe British exceptionalism is bogus while simultaneously believing British nationalism is exceptional.

[TrenterPercenter]

It's seems pretty strange to believe British exceptionalism is bogus while simultaneously believing British nationalism is exceptional.

Nationalism generally needs real/or made up powerful enemies to work.  Don't get this mixed up with imperialism which is generally the other way round.

Exceptionalism is more akin to petit beliefs around imperialism than nationalism.

[Buelligan]

Yeah nationalists never claim that their nation is uniquely virtuous.

It's pretty odd that you need to shear off most of what I said when addressing my point.  And you're not alone.  Almost like you're concentrating on point-scoring, rather than thinking about what I actually said.

If you think this is a uniquely British phenomenon, a visit to India or Thailand will dispel this. Irish and Scottish nationalism is how nationalism is born; it grows ugly as it ages. It's not better or different, only newer. You could look at Israel for an example: a project born in optimistic, welcoming hope that has ended in apartheid.

It's also worth reminding ourselves that the campaign for Irish nationalism already has a substantial civilian body count.

I didn't say it was unique[nb]though I do wonder if Indians or Thais believe they should be running the EU or even the UN, there may well be Israelis that do, I'd say those lads are probably arrogant destructive dickheads on the level of the English ones I'm speaking of[/nb].  And it has nothing to do with motivations, good or bad, or body counts.  Its simply an honest observation about the reasons why it was possible to convince so many English people to fuck over their own country (and the rest of the United Kingdom).

ETA the footnote about Israeli dickheads - for fairness.

[bgmnts]

So Scotland and Ireland wanting a level of liberty and sovereignty means it will end being a horrible, oppressive state? Does this apply to literally evey country that didn't used to exist but now exists?

[TrenterPercenter]

So Scotland and Ireland wanting a level of liberty and sovereignty means it will end being a horrible, oppressive state? Does this apply to literally evey country that didn't used to exist but now exists?

I don't think so; nations (or individual people and groups) don't exist in a vacuum they have interactions with other nations in the world.  Self-determination or individuality for nations (or individual people and groups) as an imagined end goal is very different to the impact of how you might get there; so you can achieve self-determination but what determination is built on is going to dictate the flavour of that self determination when it arrives.

Sorry that might sound a bit complicated but in practice if you based your self-determination in the victimhood of another imagined/real actor[nb]as most nationalism is[/nb], when you set up peoples mind to fight this oppressor and that oppressor is either removed/neutralised/or didn't really exist/is exaggerated in the first place[nb]or not in the form it was sold[/nb] then you are likely to be dependent on the continuation of that battle for your self-determination.

[peanutbutter]

Possibly, but the question would remain - who would we trade with outside of the EU, if we left? The UK, probably, just because of proximity, but who else? Do we even have anything to offer that other countries couldn't get for cheaper elsewhere?

Since the last politicians to actually spill blood for Ireland died (in the Republic at any rate), the people running the country have been all about that delicious, delicious money. They won't do anything that'll risk that. And there just aren't enough immigints to stoke the hate necessary to use that as a platform on which to run. If we were located closer to the Mediterranean, then maybe.

yep, really the only thing other than the tax stuff is a largely educated English speaking workforce with direct EU access. Plus along with all of that the Irish voting system virtually guarantees coalition governments, it'd be quite hard to have a trump or a brexit. The obvious weak point to that system being the country's high number of referendums, but even then it's kind of been drilled into people that there'll just be a second one if the wrong descision is made.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

It's also worth reminding ourselves that the campaign for Irish nationalism already has a substantial civilian body count.

Imagine the civilian body count of British exceptionalism and entitlement.

The obvious weak point to that system being the country's high number of referendums, but even then it's kind of been drilled into people that there'll just be a second one if the wrong descision is made.

That's only happened once.

[Buelligan]

Imagine the civilian body count of British exceptionalism and entitlement.

Fuck me, I'd rather not.  Is it even possible to really understand a number that big?

[bgmnts]

Going to go with a nice round number and say 200 kil dead.

[Famous Mortimer]

Ah yes, the referendum where the government just assumed it would go through and made no fucking effort to explain the benefits, or even what it was. Your Local TD says "Vote Yes" was deemed enough as a campaign approach. 'They shouldn't have just made them vote again' is a valid line of argument, but it'd be a stretch to view that as some sort of fundamental rejection of the European Union by Irish electorate.

Or, they voted honestly the first time, and were lied to the second because the politicians and corporations didn't get the result they wanted.

[Buelligan]

Yeah, because, as we can see from the rosy garden that is post Brexit Britain, voting to leave the EU or fuck it over, is the way to give those politicians and corporations a kick up the arse whilst improving life for the people all round.

Do you think the great big capitalist kleptocracies, like the good old US, are butthurt and worried about the EU being fucked over?

[Paul Calf]

Imagine the civilian body count of British exceptionalism and entitlement.

Handwaving doesn't bring those dead civilians back to life. Please stop excusing the murder of innocent bystanders.

[Buelligan]

She's not.  She's saying, IMO, quite reasonably, if you're going to start digging up bodies, take a look at the Brits' pile.  Looks like we're going to need a bigger carpet.

[peanutbutter]

That's only happened once.

Twice, Nice in 2002 and Lisbon in 2008

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

She's not.  She's saying, IMO, quite reasonably, if you're going to start digging up bodies, take a look at the Brits' pile.  Looks like we're going to need a bigger carpet.

I didn't want to patronize Paul Calf by slowly and patiently recounting the circumstances that led so many young men in Northern Ireland to feel as though the only solution to the denial of their civil rights, frustration of political means through gerrymandering, and the continuing threat of violence from police, armed forces, and the Unionist community was to pick up guns themselves. But perhaps I should have. It was a lot more than a nebulous concept of "Ireland for the Irish".

[Paul Calf]

It doesn't matter how you justify it. You are handwaving away the murder of innocent people. I'm not. I know about the death toll of the British Empire and I make no excuses for it because killing innocent people is not excusable for any reason whatsoever.

[AllisonSays]

Black and white moral statements don't tend to fare very well when applied to the complexities of actual history, PC, although I know they happen to be your preferred mode of speech. The question isn't a moral one (is killing people excusable), it's a historical one (why did the PIRA do what it did, how did that change over time, and so on). Daniel Finn's recent book is very good on this, I think.

On Irish nationalism, I think if you look at the debate over direct provision, for instance - or the treatment of travellers by the state and the media - it'd be hard to argue that it doesn't also entail practices of exclusion, violence, and so on. It's not the same as British nationalism because of their historically distinct production, but I guess I'm pessimistic about the possibility of any kind of radical or emancipatory nationalism.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

It doesn't matter how you justify it. You are handwaving away the murder of innocent people. I'm not. I know about the death toll of the British Empire and I make no excuses for it because killing innocent people is not excusable for any reason whatsoever.

Please show me where I justified murder.

[TrenterPercenter]

It doesn't matter how you justify it. You are handwaving away the murder of innocent people. I'm not. I know about the death toll of the British Empire and I make no excuses for it because killing innocent people is not excusable for any reason whatsoever.

No one is handwaving.  That is a ridiculous thing to say.

[Lfbarfe]

I don't think the cunt needs any more money. In fact, I'd like to see him begging on the streets so I can urinate on him.

Join the queue.

[Glebe]

Claire Byrne schools Nigel Farage Again.

Cop yourself on Nige mate!

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Claire Byrne schools Nigel Farage Again.

Cop yourself on Nige mate!

404 page not found

[Glebe]

404 page not found

Yeah sorry fixed. Try again!

[Wonderful Butternut]

Or, they voted honestly the first time, and were lied to the second because the politicians and corporations didn't get the result they wanted.

Ok I'm sorry, you are in fact right. My experience of actually being there to witness the debate at the time and remembering what it was about, the lack of Euroscepticism in political debate in Ireland generally, the absence of a party who've made so much as an utterance about wanting to take Ireland out of the EU from Dail Eireann, the fact that the single largest reason given for rejection (as per the link you provided) was lack of clarity on what the treaty actually meant rather than wanting out of the EU, all count for nothing compared to what 5 minutes of what you looking at Wikipedia revealed.

There is in fact a major push in Ireland to leave the EU that we cannot see cos we're too busy laughing at the Brits.

I shall now delete my CAB account, because you are a gentleman and a scholar.

Yeah sorry fixed. Try again!

It's the same interview I posted a couple of days ago?

[Glebe]

Fuck me he's done it again!

Fool me once etc.

It's the same interview I posted a couple of days ago?

D'oh! Soz folks.

[Wonderful Butternut]

Fuck me he's done it again!

New national Irish pass time, pay Farage to support the IRA.