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Did Japan deserve the H-bomb?

Started by Chedney Honks, October 16, 2021, 09:10:18 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Chedney Honks

I've seen Grave of the Fireflies, I've read some books and I've just watched Ip Man and from what I've heard about what they did to the Chinese and to POWs, the Atomic Bomb was apparently a necessary evil to destroy the national psyche and make sure the Japanese people were forever afraid of the ultimate consequence. As much as I love Akira Kurosawa, Yasujiro Ozu and Satoshi Kon, as well as Japanese food and Godzilla, I wonder if the Atomic Bomb needed to happen to change the course of history. I really wouldn't know.

I haven't reached a conclusion but I'm sure the DK bright sparks of this forum will have a more rounded conclusion than I could ever reach. What's the answer?

touchingcloth

Would have been good if it had smeared Akira Kurosawa.


shiftwork2

The answer is it didn't have the H-Bomb.



Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Doesn't matter, Truman was going to use it anyway.

shiftwork2

Christ.  In other language, "the H-Bomb was never used against Japan"

Chedney Honks

Quote from: shiftwork2 on October 16, 2021, 09:21:46 PM
Christ.  In other language, "the H-Bomb was never used against Japan"

Correct.

GoblinAhFuckScary

no. and the us's motivations in dropping it had little to nothing to do with actually ending the conflict with japan.

Enola Gay by OMD is one of my favourites.  It wouldn't have existed but for Hiroshima.  So, it's in the balance: thousands of lives against my musical enjoyment; not an easy choice.

shiftwork2

Chonks, you've fucked it again.  You need to get on the amphetamines asap.

idunnosomename

the narrative you always hear that it was the only option to prevent a land invasion that would've cost more lives is a fallacy. while getting the Japanese Empire to surrender was complex, the bigger worry for the US was that Soviets would occupy the territory instead, and the two bombs were a flex of their power.

I recommend this Shaun video even though it is over two hours! watch it in chunks of course, but I think it lays things out really well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCRTgtpC-Go

main thing he's wrong about is that America didn't have a plan for land invasion (Operation Downfall) and you can argue about some of the US sources he uses (who aren't entirely reliable after the event) and quibble about the end thesis of it being racist against east Asians rather than Europeans. but still food for thought.

and yes it was a pair of A-bombs. an h-bomb has never been used in combat. which I think is a testament to human world civilisation not being totally fucking shit.

bgmnts

Reading accounts of what fire bombings or terror bombings entailed, a swift end to everyone's existence with a big bastard nuke seems like it was the best option.


Of course, I still reckon it was a love weapons test but may have been for the best.

Chedney Honks

shifter, fair play for not falling flat on your face like the guys who don't even bother reading the replies before steaming in.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: idunnosomename on October 16, 2021, 09:29:43 PM
I recommend this Shaun video even though it is over two hours! watch it in chunks of course, but I think it lays things out really well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCRTgtpC-Go
Here's the bit relevant to this thread: Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, and General Dwight Eisenhower all said afterwards that Japan was already defeated/ready to surrender, the atomic bombs played no role in the defeat of Japan, and there was no need for that now lads.

https://youtu.be/RCRTgtpC-Go?t=126

Chedney Honks

Just watching Fist of Fury with some biscuits and I feel like they totally deserved it.

Catalogue of ills

Like there aren't enough episodes of QI already

idunnosomename

Quote from: bgmnts on October 16, 2021, 09:30:02 PM
Reading accounts of what fire bombings or terror bombings entailed, a swift end to everyone's existence with a big bastard nuke seems like it was the best option.
it wasn't though was it. the fallout is the real killer. you cant imagine what it's like when you're caught in a cloud of radioactive flakes that will give you terminal cancer

ProvanFan

Everyone was dropping H bombs back then, it was a different time.

bgmnts

Quote from: idunnosomename on October 16, 2021, 09:35:07 PM
it wasn't though was it. the fallout is the real killer. you cant imagine what it's like when you're caught in a cloud of radioactive flakes that will give you terminal cancer

Of course, but a few more years of fire bombing japanese cities horribly killing hundreds and thousands of people doesnt sound like a lot of fun either.

Chedney Honks

I read the Japanese did experiments on pregnant women and driv over the babbys' heeds. If anyone deserved the H-bomb which was allegedly drop on them, it is probably them.

shiftwork2


idunnosomename

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on October 16, 2021, 09:32:57 PM
Here's the bit relevant to this thread: Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, and General Dwight Eisenhower all said afterwards that Japan was already defeated/ready to surrender, the atomic bombs played no role in the defeat of Japan, and there was no need for that now lads.

https://youtu.be/RCRTgtpC-Go?t=126
but of course we have to understand those as retrospective sources after the event, which Shaun doesn't quite do, but i still think he did a very good job of pulling it together visually with the calendar and everything.

genuinely I don't think you can defend the deployment of atomic weapons against two civilian targets. especially because of the long-term health impact

Goldentony

how long dyou reckon til we get there, off to the races etc

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Chonks have you seen Barefoot Gen? I think it's on YouTube. Very graphic though.

All Surrogate

Quote from: bgmnts on October 16, 2021, 09:30:02 PM
Reading accounts of what fire bombings or terror bombings entailed, a swift end to everyone's existence with a big bastard nuke seems like it was the best option.

Quote from: idunnosomename on October 16, 2021, 09:35:07 PM
it wasn't though was it. the fallout is the real killer. you cant imagine what it's like when you're caught in a cloud of radioactive flakes that will give you terminal cancer

Quote from: bgmnts on October 16, 2021, 09:36:59 PM
Of course, but a few more years of fire bombing japanese cities horribly killing hundreds and thousands of people doesnt sound like a lot of fun either.

I thought a major element of the death toll was the fire storms caused by the bombs, so I don't think it makes much difference on that front.


PlanktonSideburns

Just had a bomb, really wanted to use it innit?

INVENTS CITY DESTROYING BOMB

OOOH LOOK A SITUATION WHERE WE SIMPY MUST USE THIS CITY DESTROYING BOMB

it's like when you invent a machine that shags you, the fuse is already lit

touchingcloth