Older people still living with or going back to live with their parents

[sutin]

Not neccicarily parents, but wish there was more of a culture of large groups of people getting as big house together - if it works with family then so be it - not everyone needs to live alone, it often plays right into capitalism's grubby hands, and proves that we're not really ready for anything else as a society.

Isn't that what you usually do until you settle down with a romantic partner? Between the age of 20 to 33 I lived with a bunch of mates in a big house, as did almost everyone I know.

[bgmnts]

It's something I'm ashamed of but I really really would prefer to live alone. Even it's just a tiny little bedsit. I just want to be alone.

[PlanktonSideburns]

Isn't that what you usually do until you settle down with a romantic partner? Between the age of 20 to 33 I lived with a bunch of mates in a big house, as did almost everyone I know.

I'm thinking more like a culture of it being a means to an end, avoiding the housing ladder stuff by pooling resources

Like different infrastructure for it

Massive family houses with different floors for different generations, like they do in Austria, or where families are not applicable, making groups

[Zetetic]

I think the biggest barrier for most housing coops is still broadly the cost of housing (and that's with a fair number of coops being setup in the last 70 years with a commitment to helping start new ones).

Can also be tricky to match with precarity and people moving around so much, at least on the usual models and their approaches to funding?

[Buelligan]

Britain's housing market is depraved.  Here, in my village, there's a tiny stonebuilt old barn (more like a one up, one down, really tiny).  It's built into what were the old castle walls, so only has a front door and a window on the floor above, that's it but the roof is new and the walls are solid and it's on the market for around €8K.  There was another one, nearby, in rather worse condition, that sold a while ago for €3K.  In a little village in the middle of exquisite beauty.

[TrenterPercenter]

A mortgage is basically a massive debt and I fucking hate debt so shan't be doing that.

Hmmm whilst not untrue not the best way to think about things;

Modern day mortgage is basically like a long-term tenancy agreement with "benefits" i.e. that besides the interest[nb]and a few intermittent bits and bobs[/nb] you are buying a share in the property each time you pay "rent".  The bank is effectively paying your "rent" upfront over the term of the mortgage and you are paying them back.  This is no brainer if you can do it.

Just on a year basis let's say your rent is £600 you pay £7200 in that year to live in that house/flat

Let's say you can get a similar property with a mortgage of £750, it is usually less than rent because that is how landlords make their money but lets just say you are upgrading slightly, these are ballpark figures based a typical 25 year mortgage (we'll come back to this in debt terms).  You would pay then £9000 a year in "rent[nb]your mortgage[/nb]"; now £2800 of that would go to the bank in interest; and £6200 would go into you buying 1/25 share of your house.  That slice of asset is yours so as long as that asset maintains it's value then you have paid £4400 less a year on rent.  House prices are going up constantly because the government is using this money to asset trick to run the economy[nb]it isn't going to change anytime soon and there are protections if it crashes i.e. all properties will be affected[/nb] so you are not just getting £6200 in assets back each year you are getting more like £7000 a year with house price inflation which increases year on year in a compound fashion (more in some areas).

In terms of debt; yes you have a large debt overall that has been broken down into structured payments but you are buying the asset + saving on rent so if you couldn't afford the mortgage at some point you sell the house (and you are in a market in which people are desperate to buy house because of scarcity) and exchange your assets for the cash you put in.  Bank obviously then makes money of the new buyer by loaning them the money again and charging them interest.

It's a massive con there is no doubt it's incredible we allow these banks to do this it's literally criminal but that is how it works; private renting is just the same you are just paying someone else's second mortgage which is the next thing getting people to service your assets (proper capitalism mate).

[TrenterPercenter]

Another mad things about mortgages;

So you "buy" a house for 200k; on a mortgage term of 25 years; you live in it for 3 years and make your mortgage payments.  On a repayment basis you will have reduced the overall mortgage over that time by about 20k you own 3/25th of the of property in debt terms; but the house has gone up 10% so it's market value is 220k; you now got a an overall debt left to pay of 180K so in equity you actually have 1/5th of the property value of when you bought it; it is a bit like being paid a dividend of 6.5k a year for doing fuck all.

This is how the banks are utterly parked in the lives of everyone; the money is always relative to where you are in the system and the money tbh isn't important it just circulates in in system flipping between assets and sales with the bank creaming off the top.  It is insane but just because it is insane don't think that it doesn't work or has to fail; that happened and they know they can't let it happen again; it is a parasitic relationship banks have with the country another crash and the risk is like last time people wake up and see their beaks firmly stuck in their arms gorging themselves on their blood.

[Gurke and Hare]

There's a fetish for home ownership in England, Ireland and a few other places that some European countries don't have. Is it something like 70% renters in Spain or something?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

Spain is 76% owner-occupier. UK is 63%, which is towards the low end of western European countries that are generally between 60% and 80%. Germany is the most notable outlier at 51%.

[Johnny Foreigner]

It's something I'm ashamed of but I really really would prefer to live alone. Even it's just a tiny little bedsit. I just want to be alone.

You might want to look for small independent landlords; avoid agencies. Agencies are useless. I lived in a small, self-contained studio flat for several years－with an oven, washing machine and fridge etc.－that cost me 350 quid a month. Living on your own also entitles you to a 25% council tax reduction. My landlord owned a small number of such flats and rented them to both students and people in full-time employment.

Such properties tend not to be well-advertised. I think I found my flat on Gumtree or somewhere.

[paruses]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

Spain is 76% owner-occupier. UK is 63%, which is towards the low end of western European countries that are generally between 60% and 80%. Germany is the most notable outlier at 51%.

I have to say I've been guilty of this too  but I often hear "almost everyone rents in Spain. It's just normal". I hear it said in good faith with the idea that in the UK renting is seen somehow a mark of failure or a stepping stone / rite of passage and it shouldn't be. I just found it interesting that Spain has almost exclusively been the go-to and isn't right - maybe it was in the 70s / 80s. I am going to start saying "almost everyone rents in Nigeria. It's just normal"

[checkoutgirl]

Part of the argument usually is that because renting is so hideously expensive, it can be cheaper to be paying a mortgage and rather than burning money you get a house out of it eventually.  But yeah.  Still need a huge deposit and it's still a huge debt

The problem over here is lack of regulation and rent control. Once I asked why a couple were buying a house and was told they were turfed out of their apartment by landlords 7 or 8 times. I've personally been given the heave ho by letter because they were selling up. For all I know they were selling it to themselves via a shell company so they could jack up the price.

Can you imagine the Tories, who are probably mostly landlords themselves, bringing in regulations and rent control etc to protect the tenant? Post EU especially.

[bgmnts]

You might want to look for small independent landlords; avoid agencies. Agencies are useless. I lived in a small, self-contained studio flat for several years－with an oven, washing machine and fridge etc.－that cost me 350 quid a month. Living on your own also entitles you to a 25% council tax reduction. My landlord owned a small number of such flats and rented them to both students and people in full-time employment.

Such properties tend not to be well-advertised. I think I found my flat on Gumtree or somewhere.

I moved out for a few months three years ago renting from an independent landlord. A tiny, tiny house in a shit town next to an industrial estate renting a room with another guy there and a tiny room upstairs for some other poor tennant.

425 p/m it was. Which would have risen to 440 p/m in the summer for some reason.

That's my only experience.

[Darles Chickens]

I have to say I've been guilty of this too  but I often hear "almost everyone rents in Spain. It's just normal". I hear it said in good faith with the idea that in the UK renting is seen somehow a mark of failure or a stepping stone / rite of passage and it shouldn't be. I just found it interesting that Spain has almost exclusively been the go-to and isn't right - maybe it was in the 70s / 80s. I am going to start saying "almost everyone rents in Nigeria. It's just normal"

My experience living in Spain is that there's very much a culture of "renting is throwing your money away; live with your parents until you're 30 if you have to, save for a deposit, and buy a flat on a low long-term mortgage when you can". 40 year mortgages are common here, paying no more than 400€ a month.

What I like though is that property is really treated as a home, a place to live and grow old in, not just a shrewd investment that'll make some money in the medium term.  Property prices in Spain aren't crazily inflated, nor is there any certainty that they'll keep going up.  But everyone needs a home, and people tend to prefer to buy than rent.  Another notable difference between Spain and the UK is that "leasehold" isn't really a thing - if you own a flat in a building with 8 flats, each owner is a 1/8th owner of the entire building and its land.  The community of residents operates as a tiny business, with its own president, each owner contributing towards common bills each month. 

[TrenterPercenter]

My old commie dad would say people shouldn't be allowed to buy houses; he lives in a council house; I think he is wrong, and a hypocrite considering he bought a house once himself.  He is not entirely wrong though whilst I don't think the state should own all houses; I think it should always be in control of the market in regards to ensuring affordable houses and houses for those who cannot afford these exist.  Rent controls are a no brainer you just have to not care about a private landlord economy; private landlords get have properties if they want but they should be ensuring they are actually doing the public service job that they often wax lyrical about and not just lining their own pockets.  I don't think being a landlord is "a job" and where it is for the few that don't use letting agents it's still not a job with the intensity and demands of most other jobs.

The thing is releasing all that capital into the real economy would solve so many problems; we do this intentionally in order to sustain our elitist hierarchy in this country it is not just a byproduct of the market.

[JaDanketies]

When my dad died, it felt like I'd lost the only person who would ever consistently offer me a place to live, through thick and thin.

S'alright though, now I live in his old house.

His estate has continued paying his interest-only mortgage up to now but we're gonna get our own mortgage, it feels like we're just a few more forms away. Renting is definitely not as good as having a mortgage. I really reckon mortgages separate the poor from the not-doing-too-bad. You're gonna spend several hundred pounds a month anyway, may as well use it to increase your equity in a property rather than increase your landlords' equity in a property.  When I left my rentals after a few years, I was lucky to get the security deposit back. If we sell this place after a few years, we'll get literally tens of thousands of pounds back. There's no comparison. Landlords are parasites and freeing yourself from them is the only way for most people to ever accumulate any wealth.

[JamesTC]

I'm pretty lucky I lived in the area I do.

Living with my mother, paying nominal monthly keep (£250) with a bruising year of 12 hour days meant I was able to get the deposit together for a £67k home at 25. £260 a month mortgage for 20 years. Houses round my way have already shot up in price to the point I wouldn't be able to afford it now. I think my house is now worth north of £80k.

If I'm honest, the only reason I rushed through it is because of paranoia of being homeless. Likely misplaced as I have loads of family who would take me in.

If I didn't live where I do when I did, I don't know how long it would have been till I got my own place. Rent just isn't an option. Paying for somebody else's mortgage with extra is just absurd to me. Broken system when that is just accepted.

[Icehaven]

When my dad died, it felt like I'd lost the only person who would ever consistently offer me a place to live, through thick and thin.

S'alright though, now I live in his old house.

His estate has continued paying his interest-only mortgage up to now but we're gonna get our own mortgage, it feels like we're just a few more forms away. Renting is definitely not as good as having a mortgage. I really reckon mortgages separate the poor from the not-doing-too-bad. You're gonna spend several hundred pounds a month anyway, may as well use it to increase your equity in a property rather than increase your landlords' equity in a property.  When I left my rentals after a few years, I was lucky to get the security deposit back. If we sell this place after a few years, we'll get literally tens of thousands of pounds back. There's no comparison. Landlords are parasites and freeing yourself from them is the only way for most people to ever accumulate any wealth.

That's all very well but if you don't stand to inherit a property or earn enough to save a deposit it's basically impossible. Not saying you personally but there often seems to be an assumption that everyone's parents own their homes, so they'll eventually get either the house or a share of it between siblings, which in a lot of cases would go a long way towards a deposit. My mum rents her flat and my dad's never been in the picture so I won't be inheriting anything.

[JaDanketies]

That's all very well but if you don't stand to inherit a property or earn enough to save a deposit it's basically impossible. Not saying you personally but there often seems to be an assumption that everyone's parents own their homes, so they'll eventually get either the house or a share of it between siblings, which in a lot of cases would go a long way towards a deposit. My mum rents her flat and my dad's never been in the picture so I won't be inheriting anything.

Agreed. I don't want to sound gauche but since I became self-employed, and my partner got a promotion, our household income is better than 90% of British households. We actually could've swung getting a mortgage for the £70k council flat we lived in at the time my dad died, but 'living in my dad's house rent free' was definitely a big factor in us getting a mortgage for an actual family home. I'm honestly not sure if we could've got a mortgage for more  if it wasn't for the rent-free part, despite having a better income than almost everyone. Dad selfishly had an interest-only mortgage and intended to spend all his money before he died. But his interest-only ownership meant we could buy the properly for less than it would cost on the market.

Also I could only take the plunge into being self-employed because I had a financial safety net. I wouldn't have been able to have risked it otherwise.

[Fr.Bigley]

[TrenterPercenter]

That's all very well but if you don't stand to inherit a property or earn enough to save a deposit it's basically impossible. Not saying you personally but there often seems to be an assumption that everyone's parents own their homes, so they'll eventually get either the house or a share of it between siblings, which in a lot of cases would go a long way towards a deposit. My mum rents her flat and my dad's never been in the picture so I won't be inheriting anything.

My partner and I bought our house without any help from anyone; we had to wait until we were 38 to buy it; but it is possible as you say you have to have an income vs outgoings that allows you to save, patience and be willing to make sacrifices (i.e. holidays etc..).  House prices need to be kept inline with wages but the other solution is increased borrowing and support for deposits - which is basically what they will keep doing.  One big massive ponzi scheme but since we decided that money isn't real (apart from when it is Labour spending it or if you are spending it on nurses etc...) then it doesn't really matter; the base can just keep growing and growing by creating more debt.  It's completely insane really.

[imitationleather]

Would honestly rather go on the game than move back in with my mum.

[TrenterPercenter]

Would honestly rather go back on the game than move back in with my mum.

FTFY

[Cuellar]

Would honestly rather go back on the game and move back in with my mum.

FTFY

[checkoutgirl]

seems to be an assumption that everyone's parents own their homes, so they'll eventually get either the house or a share of it between siblings

Even if your parents own their home, what if they don't have the decency and  consideration to drop dead when they do die? What's to stop them eventually selling the house to spend on a care home after years of pain and reduced mobility?

[imitationleather]

Gonna be so, so, so many juicy cases of people killing their parents over the next decade.

The Crime & Investigation channel are rubbing their hands with glee.

[checkoutgirl]

Would honestly rather my mum went on the game so I could then move in on her.

[MojoJojo]

So you "buy" a house for 200k; on a mortgage term of 25 years; you live in it for 3 years and make your mortgage payments.  On a repayment basis you will have reduced the overall mortgage over that time by about 20k you own 3/25th of the of property in debt terms;

You won't own 3/25ths after the first 3 years. The interest you pay is based upon how much you still owe, which goes down every month as you pay it back, but your payments are constant. The effect of this is that at the beginning of your mortgage, most of your payment goes towards interest with only a small amount reducing your debt, but buy the end of your mortgage this has flipped and you will be paying only a small amount of interest and most of it paying off your debt.

[Icehaven]

My partner and I bought our house without any help from anyone;

Except each other.

[TrenterPercenter]

Except each other.

Exactly (though that isn't really that same as being given money; after all we've been through to be able to by a house I'm not taking being put in the same pile of people that used the bank of mummy and daddy); I mentioned this before but considering the abusive relationships and domestic murders that occur because someone see's there only way of owning a home is find a partner; house prices should be considered an issue of safeguarding; this obviously affects women more than men but it is just a misery factory all round really.  There were stories a few years back in how landlords where even having the gall to advertise reduced rents for sexual favours from tenants.

People should be able to afford to live on their own; it literally could the choice between life and death for some people.

[TrenterPercenter]

You won't own 3/25ths after the first 3 years. The interest you pay is based upon how much you still owe, which goes down every month as you pay it back, but your payments are constant. The effect of this is that at the beginning of your mortgage, most of your payment goes towards interest with only a small amount reducing your debt, but buy the end of your mortgage this has flipped and you will be paying only a small amount of interest and most of it paying off your debt.

3/25ths of the money owed on the entire mortgage term (and 3/25th of the value based on your interest staying the same); that is how repayment mortgages work; which is higher than the house price.  I took a mortgage out for 215k; less than 3 years later and I have an outstanding amount owed of about 194k; the total owe-able with interest is much higher but that depends on returning to the providers rate; what mortgage I get next controls the amount of interest.  You never EVER pay the fall back rate and you always secure the lowest interest and pay based on that.  If you keep the interest rate low you are paying off much more of the actual debt.