Frank Zappa's music is a load of horrible, smug old bollocks CHANGE MY MIND

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

Just to stop the Terrible Album Covers thread's current  ongoing off topic direction. Maybe all that needs to be said had been said by the detractors on there, and maybe their comments could be shifted onto here. Literally the only Zappa song I have a reluctant sort of liking for is " Valley Girl", because of some nifty bass guitar work, and Zappadaughter's vocals remind me of Katie Puckrick, but even then the song itself is a bunch of grown  men sneering slightly sexistly at the way young people we have nowadays they had themadays spoke.
I've always been a bit disappointed at the high regard Buelligan has for him; and her, a lovely, usually tasteful lady.
So, continue the Zappabashing ( or Zappadefending) in this thread ( if you want to, like).

[H-O-W-L]

Zappa's work has a lot of objectifying and sexist undercurrents in it IMO and it's one of a litany of reasons I dislike him.

[first skeleton on mars]

never listened to any of it as I'm far too put off by the man's moustache, sort of thing shouldn't be allowed

[MrsWarboysLover]

For me it's completely devoid of any emotion or feeling, it's entirely soul-less; I don't even know what mood he's trying to convey - like it's never fun, happy, sad, mysterious - it's just a bunch of notes that are meaningless. So I don't get why people would like him above any other technically talented musicians who are equally uninteresting.

Having said that, this is entirely subjective, but it leaves me cold.

[greenman]

Honestly never listened to much of it beyond the late 60's jazz rock stuff(Hot Rats mainly) which is ok but really I think pales next to Miles Davis rock jazz of that period and as mentioned more lacking in mood.

[PlanktonSideburns]

I think there's little moments of joy in some of his tunes, which often come from the lovely musicians he has assembled. There's a small amount of beauty in the craft of it, he's trying to make really intricate stuff, and has this bunch of ambitious musicians along for the mad ride

I think that would have been enough to make it worthwhile if it hadn't been buried in a mile of things which aged like meat in the sun: weird attitude to women, impenetrable postmodern sneering, and as Goblin mentioned over in the other thread, totally over baked production of things that probably sounded much more interesting as immediate recordings. He even managed to figure out a revolutionary (at the time) system to ruin the live recordings!

Been listening to lots of Hermeto Pascoal recently, and wish I could go back in time and give a couple of CDs of his stuff to my teenager self - has all the things I loved at the time, wild performers, mad slices of time, barrages of notes, but somehow manages to be joyous and gorgeous also

[Epic Bisto]

I went through a dark period of full-on Zappa listening but snapped out of that eventually (I only dared go there because I needed to complete my Beefheart collection).  I'll vouch for the 60s Mothers stuff (though that can be a bit spotty) but I cut off at Weasels Ripped My Flesh, although Waka/Jawaka is alright.  Garbage from Chunga onwards.  Horrible man.

[Gregory Torso]

I've somehow managed to never hear Frank Zappa (with the exception of Willie The Pimp which a friend put on a tape for me many years ago). I just always assumed it would be shit, wacky, hairy, prog nonsense with a cheeky bit of frat boy misogyny and perhaps someone is in blackface in the background playing a toy saxophone. Happy to have these notions quashed - quashed! - if anyone wants to recommend some top tracks (although really do I want to start getting into Zappa this late in the game?)

[the ouch cube]

Lots of good stuff, more punk than punk while also being more prog than prog. An elaborate, ever-evolving circus of sound, and far more engaging than the stiff, self-conscious blues experiments of Beefheart. Not fussed about the sexism, he's clearly on a wind-up, and you fell for it like the fascists you are.

Dislike mostly comes from ageing post punk/indie schmindies, who allowed (even encouraged) Lou Reed and MES to behave like shits, while wanting everyone else to be 'relatable' and bang on about football or some similar rubbish.

Also whinged about by rock journalists, who cross over with indie schmindies to a large degree as we all know, and who traditionally spend most of their lives sitting on their fat arses sneering at easy targets. Then along comes Frank, who is way better at sneering than they are, and they get all defensive, they don't like that he's holding up a mirror that way.

"Soulless" is a slightly more convincing criticism but not everything has to be heart on sleeve, believe it or not, and in any case, complaining about lack of soul (maaaan) is the hallmark of the ageing Weller/Stereophonics fan last time I checked. 

You'd have to be a lunatic to like everything he's done, of course. Thing-Fish and 200 Motels are too obnoxious even for me. I do like a lot of the maligned 80s stuff however, especially You Are What You Is

[Kankurette]

I will always love Let's Make the Water Turn Black. It was on one of my dad's favourite mixtapes and as a kid I thought it was hilarious.

[the science eel]

I went through a dark period of full-on Zappa listening but snapped out of that eventually (I only dared go there because I needed to complete my Beefheart collection).  I'll vouch for the 60s Mothers stuff (though that can be a bit spotty) but I cut off at Weasels Ripped My Flesh, although Waka/Jawaka is alright.  Garbage from Chunga onwards.  Horrible man.

Agree with every word.

Give Freak Out! a go - it's very good in places.

[H-O-W-L]

Not fussed about the sexism, he's clearly on a wind-up, and you fell for it like the fascists you are.

Dislike mostly comes from ageing post punk/indie schmindies, who allowed (even encouraged) Lou Reed and MES to behave like shits, while wanting everyone else to be 'relatable' and bang on about football or some similar rubbish.

Kindly fuck off.

[the ouch cube]

Dear me, we are feeling brittle today, aren't we

[bgmnts]

I've only ever heard the song Catholic Girls by him.

I suppose in retrospect that could be considered misogynistic but as a teenager I just assumed he was ripping the piss out of Catholicism and it's sexual repression.

[Famous Mortimer]

I tried, and I know there are / were a few fans of his on here, but it's just so dull. There's the odd song which might fit towards the end of side 2 of a mixtape when you're trying to find something to fit a theme, but I just can't imagine listening to him for fun.

[Pauline Walnuts]

I still quite like some of it, but sometimes the prigishness and sneering at anyone who basically isn't Frank Zappa gets tiresome. Never thought most of the sexism was ironic.

Oh, and when he went Prog saying it's not Prog, but a parody of Prog ain't going to work when you have to listen to the whole freakin' 25 minutes of Billy the Mountain 😴

[chveik]

far more engaging than the stiff, self-conscious blues experiments of Beefheart.

grave

[Ron Maels Moustache]

grave

Yeah what the fuck, I don't think there's been a less self-conscious musician than Beefheart. He just was who he was, good and bad, without irony or conceit.

Pretty much the polar opposite of Zappa, where everything he did was conceptualised to the nth degree.

The thing about Zappa, you know when you're a teenager and discover irony for the first time and think it's the coolest thing ever to be aloof and insincere all the time, well I feel like that was Frank, except he never grew out of it. He seems to've spent his whole professional life hiding behind a wall of cynicism and disdain, never ever allowing himself to be "real" or let anyone in. Clearly massively intelligent(and knew it) and a brilliant composer, but totally closed off.

When I watched the Alex Winter doc (which was really well made) I was hoping it might get under his skin a little and give a glimpse behind the façade, but it didn't unfortunately. The most striking part I think was Ruth Underwood talking about the final performance she did with Zappa not long before his death, and how even then it seemed like he couldn't fully drop his defences and admit to actually feeling something akin to actual emotion.

[Shit Good Nose]

I'm a long-time big fan, but really dislike certain eras and aspects.

Early (pre-68) MOI get an occasional listen, but the mix of abstract experimental "performance" and doo-wop doesn't really gel with my own personal taste;
68-70 MOI is my favourite period of MOI, where the music becomes more orchestrated and FZ's chops on the guitar really start to develop;
Interim solo jazz Hot Rats.  Ace.  Nuff said;
70-72 Flo and Eddie Mothers largely unlistenable (the abovementioned Billy The Mountain being a particular low-point), but Chunga's Revenge is pretty good, as is SOME of 200 Motels and a couple of instrumentals;
72 Wazoo era with the big bands and serious jazz-tinged compositions are great.  I'm one of those FZ fans that think Trevor Charles Howell was the best thing that ever happened to Zappa - without him, FZ wouldn't have had time to compose "proper" music or progress on the guitar and the Flo and Eddie Mothers would have carried on for several more albums (a fact confirmed by FZ and everyone in that band).  You also get the full-time debut of the great great great Ruth Underwood ("MORE RUTH!!!!"), previously only appearing sporadically as a temp session musician;
In 73 you start to hit the REALLY good stuff - Jean Luc Ponty, Ralph Humphrey, Tom Fowler.  They've already supported Mahavishnu Orchestra several times and often been on the same bills as King Crimson and FZ decides that the band needs to be better, tighter and faster.  Fantastic melodic jazz-rock, excellent musicianship, which of course leads to...;
The 73-74 "Roxy" era, by which time the band could - and often did - play anything.  My favourite period.  Wonderful wonderful music, amazing musicians;
75-77 is the main Terry Bozzio era where the jazz is largely edged out by a more rock infused feel, but the playing is still brilliant, including the amazing christmas 76 shows with the SNL band;
78-80 more "comedy music" starts to get introduced again, Ruth Underwood has unfortunately left, and Ike Willis - one of the biggest influences on which way the music would go over subsequent years - comes in.  Vinnie Colaiuta on drums though, and it's still a very tight unit with some excellent music being played;
By 81 pretty much all links to "classic" period Zappa are long gone, with only Ray White remaining from the mid 70s.  The rest of the band are all new and very young.  FZ's guitar solos become less melodic and more atonal and "shreddy", and even more comedy songs and on-stage skits are introduced.  Chad Wackerman - an admittedly amazing drummer in his own right - has a terrible terrible drum sound.  This goes on through to 84, and is a period I'm not overly keen on and rarely listen to;
88, the final tour, and a final big band, with more older songs introduced, as well as some more complex newer material.  (Interesting factoid - Roxy alumnus Chester Thompson is invited to rejoin as second drummer following the completion of Genesis' Invisible Touch tour, but [politely] turns FZ down as in the interim he's become a born-again christian and some of FZ's material doesn't gel with his beliefs.  The two nevertheless remain good friends until Zappa's death).  Comedy music and on-stage antics reduce slightly, but inter-band fighting and Zappa rarely bothering to be involved with rehearsals put a strain on the band that can't be fixed;
No more live tours, no more bands, just abysmal synclavier noodlings being the nadir of his career (in my opinion).


It's a shame that most people think of Zappa as doing nothing but sexist comedy songs with a few guitar solos, when the reality is he covered almost every single genre going - free jazz, jazz rock/fusion, prog, punk, country, doo-wop, modern classical, pop, comedy, spoken word.  Like Prince, his body of work is so large and with so much variety that it makes it impossible to just dip in and out at random to see if you think you'll like it.

I don't - and will never - apologise for loving Zappa, but I completely understand those who don't and their reasoning, and will never ever force him upon someone unless they are genuinely interested.



RE Beefheart (who I'm also a fan of - there's no law saying it's one or the other) - I've always quite liked the "Tragic Band" era.  Very listenable, even toe-tapping.  Now we're several generations away from the drubbing at the time, has there been a re-appraisal of that period?

[Rainbow Moses]

Never really took to him that much, but might give him another chance after reading some of the sanctimonious responses on here. Cheers, lads.

[peanutbutter]

I really can't be bothered getting into Zappa, have tried loads of times and never managed to stick with it, but one thing I'm mildly confused by is that he seems like someone who would be sampled really heavily yet Madlib seems to nearly be the sole person sampling his shit. Given his positioning and rate of output I'd've half expected him to stumble onto some massively sampled hip hop staple tbh.

Is his estate super litigious or do I just have a really bad idea of what his sound is?

[Shit Good Nose]

I really can't be bothered getting into Zappa, have tried loads of times and never managed to stick with it, but one thing I'm mildly confused by is that he seems like someone who would be sampled really heavily yet Madlib seems to nearly be the sole person sampling his shit. Given his positioning and rate of output I'd've half expected him to stumble onto some massively sampled hip hop staple tbh.

Is his estate super litigious or do I just have a really bad idea of what his sound is?

The Zappa Family Trust (spits), which was set up by Gail Zappa, is notoriously tight.  Admittedly it all stems from how many times - and how badly - FZ was fucked over by record companies, labels and distributors (and it's not as if he was completely naive - he had a very very shrewd business mind - he was just incredibly unlucky again and again), but they have it all locked down so tightly now that a few years ago there was even a legal battle between Dweezil and Ahmet when Dweezil did one of his Zappa Plays Zappa tours.

[itsfredtitmus]

Not for me!

[Egyptian Feast]

I really can't be bothered getting into Zappa, have tried loads of times and never managed to stick with it, but one thing I'm mildly confused by is that he seems like someone who would be sampled really heavily yet Madlib seems to nearly be the sole person sampling his shit.

MF Doom samples some bits from 200 Motels on Mm..Food. Not sure how he cleared them, but they're still there on reissues, unlike his lovely usage of the Children's Television Workshop theme. I can't think of any others though.

Not hip-hop but 'w.c.s.' by dEUS is built on a sample of 'Little Umbrellas' off Hot Rats.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

used to like when was babby but am now adult with a fully formed soul

[lazyhour]

Yes, his music hasn't got the most sincerity or warmth, but I don't think that's an inherently bad thing. I don't get much of these qualities from the 20th century avant-garde composers he so loved, either. Is Varese shit for cunts because his music lacks warmth? Is Stockhausen?

I like a lot of Zappa stuff, and dislike lots more. What I like, I really like.

90s post-rock band Tortoise, again not a terribly warm band, must surely have been influenced by Zappa's "Zoot Allures"...

https://youtu.be/VInuvlshJ4M

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

no bc varese is good

[chutnut]

90s post-rock band Tortoise, again not a terribly warm band

What!
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what people mean when they describe music as 'warm', but I don't understand how anyone could say something like this isn't terribly warm
Tortoise - Glass Museum


It's also much better than Zappa imo

[lazyhour]

I fucking love Tortoise and they definitely have warm *moments* but come on, they are mostly minimal, glacial, austere, artsy, angular, and somewhat cold.

Edit: in fact, I wouldn't say Glass Museum is *especially* warm. It's gorgeous and brilliant, but play it to a hundred random people and I can't imagine very many of them reaching for that adjective.

Edit 2: Tortoise are perhaps neither warm not cold. Does that make them ambient?

[Video Game Fan 2000]

There's a version of "The Torture Never Stops" with Beefheart on vocals from that record, which would be wonderful aside from the fact Zappa has his band interpellate what sound like late-70s Magic band parodies inbetween the verses, the marching band horn stuff, including over Beefheart's harmonic playing.

Just a fun blues song with a decent joke about the music industry being like BDSM, dripping tap repetitive riff to drive the point home, best vocalist going and he had to fuck it up with parodies of the vocalists main band. Then the proper version of the song is just totally undiluted cringe.

Another good example is George Duke's version of Zappa's Uncle Remus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K6lgW6b3gw which is a cool, melancholic pop song with heartfelt lyrics about how Frank and his buddies used to hate racists back in the 1960s, some anecdote about smashing lawn jockeys (I think this was Vliet?), how hipsters used to emulate black styles that were based on protest, black musicians hating assimilationism, all interesting heartfelt stuff. Hard to believe its written by the same guy that did Thing Fish. Frank's own version is partly sung in a comedy black person voice and the band do a quirky bouncy thing and gospel parody plus wank solo. Pits of narcissistic selfloathing going on. Here's a song about how mad it made me when people were racist to my friends, better sing it like a cunt and have the band go nardle nardle noo in case the audience think I've caught feelings.