Frank Zappa's music is a load of horrible, smug old bollocks CHANGE MY MIND

[Video Game Fan 2000]

and yeah Varese is emotive music of course.

That's what makes Zappa such a waste. He drew some weird fucked up line between Varese and modernism, and the doo wop and bubblegum he loved. Brilliant stuff in theory, the thoughts of a true eccentric. Then deliberately did the opposite of exploring that because of his bizarre misanthropic and frankly misogynist views about what was and wasn't acceptable as music.

Vliet did something very similar with blues and cubism/vorticism and took it to the moon. Because he wasn't existentially ashamed about his own passions showing through his music.

[Head Gardener]

I edited his 1981 live Halloween 6 disc box set into an hour long mix if you can be arsed

https://soundcloud.com/shanequentin/frank-zappa-halloween-mix

[PlanktonSideburns]

did you take all the solos out lol

[sutin]

A lot of my favourite music is very humourous (Sparks are my all-time favourite band and i'm also a big fan of They Might Be Giants, DEVO, The B-52's, Primus, Mr. Bungle, Oingo Boingo, Cardiacs blah blah...) but there has to be a certain joy and enthusiasm. Zappa's music is just so cold and cynical (for the most part).

[SpiderChrist]

Saw him live at Wembley in 1988 when my then boss at HMV asked me if I wanted one of the free tickets that a rep had given him. Wasn't particularly a fan before, certainly wasn't a fan afterwards. I think the thing that annoyed me most was that he would stand there all arch, huffing on a cig, and when it came to inevitable guitar solo, he made a big deal of putting his cig in an ashtray and walking over to pick his guitar up, accompanied by the cheers of the faithful.

That may seem a shallow way to judge a gig, but it happened a lot, and it really made my piss itch.

That said, I like Peaches En Regalia and Willie The Pimp, but the man himself comes across as an irredeemable arse and that bleeds into the music.

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

I'm a long-time big fan, but really dislike certain eras and aspects.

Early (pre-68) MOI get an occasional listen, but the mix of abstract experimental "performance" and doo-wop doesn't really gel with my own personal taste;
68-70 MOI is my favourite period of MOI, where the music becomes more orchestrated and FZ's chops on the guitar really start to develop;
Interim solo jazz Hot Rats.  Ace.  Nuff said;
70-72 Flo and Eddie Mothers largely unlistenable (the abovementioned Billy The Mountain being a particular low-point), but Chunga's Revenge is pretty good, as is SOME of 200 Motels and a couple of instrumentals;
72 Wazoo era with the big bands and serious jazz-tinged compositions are great.  I'm one of those FZ fans that think Trevor Charles Howell was the best thing that ever happened to Zappa - without him, FZ wouldn't have had time to compose "proper" music or progress on the guitar and the Flo and Eddie Mothers would have carried on for several more albums (a fact confirmed by FZ and everyone in that band).  You also get the full-time debut of the great great great Ruth Underwood ("MORE RUTH!!!!"), previously only appearing sporadically as a temp session musician;
In 73 you start to hit the REALLY good stuff - Jean Luc Ponty, Ralph Humphrey, Tom Fowler.  They've already supported Mahavishnu Orchestra several times and often been on the same bills as King Crimson and FZ decides that the band needs to be better, tighter and faster.  Fantastic melodic jazz-rock, excellent musicianship, which of course leads to...;
The 73-74 "Roxy" era, by which time the band could - and often did - play anything.  My favourite period.  Wonderful wonderful music, amazing musicians;
75-77 is the main Terry Bozzio era where the jazz is largely edged out by a more rock infused feel, but the playing is still brilliant, including the amazing christmas 76 shows with the SNL band;
78-80 more "comedy music" starts to get introduced again, Ruth Underwood has unfortunately left, and Ike Willis - one of the biggest influences on which way the music would go over subsequent years - comes in.  Vinnie Colaiuta on drums though, and it's still a very tight unit with some excellent music being played;
By 81 pretty much all links to "classic" period Zappa are long gone, with only Ray White remaining from the mid 70s.  The rest of the band are all new and very young.  FZ's guitar solos become less melodic and more atonal and "shreddy", and even more comedy songs and on-stage skits are introduced.  Chad Wackerman - an admittedly amazing drummer in his own right - has a terrible terrible drum sound.  This goes on through to 84, and is a period I'm not overly keen on and rarely listen to;
88, the final tour, and a final big band, with more older songs introduced, as well as some more complex newer material.  (Interesting factoid - Roxy alumnus Chester Thompson is invited to rejoin as second drummer following the completion of Genesis' Invisible Touch tour, but [politely] turns FZ down as in the interim he's become a born-again christian and some of FZ's material doesn't gel with his beliefs.  The two nevertheless remain good friends until Zappa's death).  Comedy music and on-stage antics reduce slightly, but inter-band fighting and Zappa rarely bothering to be involved with rehearsals put a strain on the band that can't be fixed;
No more live tours, no more bands, just abysmal synclavier noodlings being the nadir of his career (in my opinion).


It's a shame that most people think of Zappa as doing nothing but sexist comedy songs with a few guitar solos, when the reality is he covered almost every single genre going - free jazz, jazz rock/fusion, prog, punk, country, doo-wop, modern classical, pop, comedy, spoken word.  Like Prince, his body of work is so large and with so much variety that it makes it impossible to just dip in and out at random to see if you think you'll like it.

I don't - and will never - apologise for loving Zappa, but I completely understand those who don't and their reasoning, and will never ever force him upon someone unless they are genuinely interested.



RE Beefheart (who I'm also a fan of - there's no law saying it's one or the other) - I've always quite liked the "Tragic Band" era.  Very listenable, even toe-tapping.  Now we're several generations away from the drubbing at the time, has there been a re-appraisal of that period?

What an excellent, passionate piece of writing. You do a thoroughly good job of justifying your liking for Zappa's music in an articulate, knowledgeable and thoroughly engaging manner.

I still think Zappa was a cunt, and virtually every single piece of music he produced was a load of old shit, mind you.

[Noodle Lizard]

I don't think there's any argument to be had about his/the bands' technical proficiency, but I'm surprised to see people intimate that his music is humourless or emotionless. Granted there's nothing especially sentimental in any of it, but nor's there really supposed to be. It doesn't stop me being able to extract a lot of emotional resonance from something like Peaches en Regalia, mind.

As for humour, I find plenty of it very funny; not only in a dry, sardonic way, but also the puerile, childish and fantastical aspects to it (I also enjoy the work of the poster 'poo', so take that for what it's worth). The live shows from the 70s onward featured a level of comic interactivity between all members of the band that I don't think I've seen elsewhere. It's difficult for me to watch something like this and come out saying they were "joyless", but to each their own: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzzWEeiUf3Y

My main gripe with Zappa, I think, is that he put out more uninteresting/just plain bad music than he did good - but that's not too surprising when you consider how vast his discography is, and I think it took some wanking around to find the occasional bit of gold, which I find is the case with a lot of ambitious/experimental music. Beefheart seems to get more of a free pass in this regard, but I'd argue that a good half of even Trout Mask Replica isn't all that good. There may be a bit of scarcity bias there, whereas Zappa has the opposite issue. It's interesting to note that a lot of musicians who music journalists and others assume must be influenced by Zappa (the Ween boys, Mike Patton, Devin Townsend) tend to say they don't like his music. I'm not sure how much of that is genuine or if they find the comparison lazy and annoying. I'd understand both.

[jobotic]

Never really took to him that much, but might give him another chance after reading some of the sanctimonious responses on here. Cheers, lads.

You should listen to music you don't like to wind up the lefties more you winner.

Not a fan generally but a friend played me the original version of Lumpy Gravy and it's a delight.

[Pauline Walnuts]

It's interesting to note that a lot of musicians who music journalists and others assume must be influenced by Zappa (the Ween boys, Mike Patton, Devin Townsend) tend to say they don't like his music. I'm not sure how much of that is genuine or if they find the comparison lazy and annoying. I'd understand both.

I retrospect he was a musical dead end, No effect on any* music since his death really, Maybe that one Sistem of A Down song, but that's about it.

*Never say 'any' when you really mean so little as to be effectively 'any'

[idunnosomename]

how did this work, economically? how the fuck did he manage to put out like 3-4 albums a year and remain profitable? is this what getting namechecked in Smoke on the Water gets you?

[Noodle Lizard]

I retrospect he was a musical dead end, No effect on any* music since his death really, Maybe that one Sistem of A Down song, but that's about it.

*Never say 'any' when you really mean so little as to be effectively 'any'

I'd be very surprised if Devin Townsend wasn't at least partially inspired by him. Aside from the fact that he got his foot in the industry by being part of the Steve Vai band (along with other Zappa band members), his Ziltoid albums undeniably owe a lot to Zappa's concept albums, and the humour in some of his work is also quite similar. They don't sound all that similar, of course, but I think Zappa would be quite difficult for anyone to ape anyway.

[Noodle Lizard]

how did this work, economically? how the fuck did he manage to put out like 3-4 albums a year and remain profitable? is this what getting namechecked in Smoke on the Water gets you?

From that Alex Winter documentary that came out last year, I think they mentioned that he wasn't especially financially solvent a lot of the time. But certainly being one of the first major musicians to cut out the record label/middlemen meant that he was the more direct recipient of any profits[nb]Of course, he also lived in a time when everyone had to buy LPs, so if he was able to produce more of them whilst doing a lot of the work himself, it makes sense that he'd see more profits

EDIT: Also, since he wasn't part of a "band" as such, he didn't have to split profits with anyone. I would guess he just paid the musicians for their session time.[/nb].

[daf]

Really liked 'Peaches En Regalia', and bought this best-of just to get hold of it. *



Nothing else on it came close to tickling my fancy in the same way. Was that a one-off, or did he do a bit more of that sort of stuff elsewhere?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
* found out later that the version on there was some sort of modern remix - when the original (better) version turned up on a 60's compilation ('Magic Bus') I bought a few years after he died.

[H-O-W-L]

I'd be very surprised if Devin Townsend wasn't at least partially inspired by him. Aside from the fact that he got his foot in the industry by being part of the Steve Vai band (along with other Zappa band members), his Ziltoid albums undeniably owe a lot to Zappa's concept albums, and the humour in some of his work is also quite similar. They don't sound all that similar, of course, but I think Zappa would be quite difficult for anyone to ape anyway.

I think a categorical difference is that Devin loves both music and his fans and is unafraid to explore the genre and elaborate on it, and his own flaws, and is more than willing to be self-critical, whereas -- as many others have said in this thread -- Zappa was a total closed circuit. Devin is an open book and forever evolving. I think he might've been inspired by the ideas of Zappa and I think there's some mild overlap in the context of the jokes they've made but at the end of the day Devin's sense of humor is honestly drastically different. Not least because Devin's "

Spoiler alert

Rape

[close]

Song" off the self-titled Strapping Young Lad album is basically three solid minutes of Devin saying how much he wants all

Spoiler alert

rapists

[close]

to die rather than "woohoaoah this guy in the seventies was a wacky feller who liked to

Spoiler alert

rape

[close]

women what a character"

[PlanktonSideburns]

Yea Devin Townsend has more influences is New Age music and pop than Zappa. Even in his really pissed off era there's this openness

[H-O-W-L]

Also the fact that Devin's released a couple straight-laced country/ambient/chilled out albums with absolutely no irony to them merely because he found the music he wrote for them worthwhile without shitting all over them with production or humor puts him leagues apart to me. There's this very strange element to how Zappa's work is both pedestaled as jeenyus while also being so... self-defeating and self-debased. Like he was both shockingly overconfident but never confident enough to give stuff room to breathe.

Devin's Ghost may be one of the most relaxing and beautifully produced albums I've ever heard honestly.

[Stoneage Dinosaurs]

I can't defend a lot of the lyrical content but musically speaking I love a lot of his stuff. I just love the fiddly all over the place melodies and chords and just the general feel of it all. Like Noodle Lizard I really don't get the idea that it's soulless or incapable of eliciting emotion, even something as simple as the chord progressions in Mothers tunes such as Oh No or
Absolutely Free (despite the thick slatherings of irony) are enough to do it for me.
Smutty sarky Zappa is, as others have said, the worst - tried part 1 of Joe's Garage and then just never bothered with the rest. And I'm heavily sceptical of the idea that he's a genius, I think he'd need a far better ratio of gold to dog dirt to warrant that title.

[PlanktonSideburns]

Also the fact that Devin's released a couple straight-laced country/ambient/chilled out albums with absolutely no irony to them merely because he found the music he wrote for them worthwhile without shitting all over them with production or humor puts him leagues apart to me. There's this very strange element to how Zappa's work is both pedestaled as jeenyus while also being so... self-defeating and self-debased. Like he was both shockingly overconfident but never confident enough to give stuff room to breathe.

Devin's Ghost may be one of the most relaxing and beautifully produced albums I've ever heard honestly.

Devin always looks like he loves everything he's doing, and is delighted to be alive, even in the Doctor robotnic Times

[H-O-W-L]

Devin always looks like he loves everything he's doing, and is delighted to be alive, even in the Doctor robotnic Times

And he's never afraid to make himself the joke, like in the Vampira music video or the Lucky Animals video (which he only made because of fan request -- he loathes that song)

[McChesney Duntz]

A few examples of Zappa music that lacks his frequent difficult/misanthropic/smug/smutty thrust - enjoy (or don't; what do I care?)...

Village Of The Sun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQHU-Widcoo

Blessed Relief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Qk8VxUwuM

Toads of the Short Forest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acpOO0kvfn4
(the first minute of it, anyway - beyond that, it will irk a lot of you, though I'm fine with the showoffiness of it)

Little Umbrellas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmFx4nJIJws

Apostrophe('): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXP_pr7np-o
(very nice impromptu studio jam with former Creamster Jack Bruce and future mom-killer Jim Gordon)

And yes, the fact that only one of these has lyrics says something, not too favorable, about him...

[Pauline Walnuts]

They don't sound all that similar, of course, but I think Zappa would be quite difficult for anyone to ape anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJPK35hChAk

[Stoneage Dinosaurs]

Anyway, Tim Smith was a massive Zappa fan, and he's responsible for some of the most emotionally rich and beautiful music ever made, so that's something

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

Always thought Cardiacs were a load of old shit too, to be honest.

[Noodle Lizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJPK35hChAk

I meant "ape" in the sense of trying to pass it off as your own, sincere music. But that is a solid parody, to be fair!

[Shit Good Nose]

Weird Al's parody is pretty good as well, although I know some find it a bit too on the nose.


I don't bother trying to defend most of the criticisms (although the more recent claims of racism can fuck right off and clearly come from people who have no idea about FZ and his history), but I must admit I don't get all the cold, sterile, heartless and humourless comments - you can't tell me that something like Black Napkins, Watermelon In Easter Hay or Outside Now are completely devoid of heart and emotion, or cheapo sci-fi love letter Cheepnis isn't funny.  I don't understand it at all.

[idunnosomename]

From that Alex Winter documentary that came out last year, I think they mentioned that he wasn't especially financially solvent a lot of the time. But certainly being one of the first major musicians to cut out the record label/middlemen meant that he was the more direct recipient of any profits[nb]Of course, he also lived in a time when everyone had to buy LPs, so if he was able to produce more of them whilst doing a lot of the work himself, it makes sense that he'd see more profits

EDIT: Also, since he wasn't part of a "band" as such, he didn't have to split profits with anyone. I would guess he just paid the musicians for their session time.[/nb].

thanks. i always find the monetary aspect for artistic production fascinating. of course any mad cunt could sit in their bedroom now and put out an "album" every few months, but back in those days you had to have the backing to get it on tape and press it to vinyl. quite extraordinary how much he put out when you think of that, and of course his health deteriorated right on the cusp of the CD era. imagine how much stuff he would've been putting out c.2000

[MrsWarboysLover]

you can't tell me that something like Black Napkins, Watermelon In Easter Hay or Outside Now are completely devoid of heart and emotion, or cheapo sci-fi love letter Cheepnis isn't funny.  I don't understand it at all.

On the subject of heart and emotion, I like bands that could be seen as insincere (ween) or cold and emotionless (kraftwerk), so its really hard to qualify exactly why they resonate with me and Zappa doesn't. He just doesn't.
I did listen to those songs, and I did like them more than most of his output I had heard, but it still tended to remind me of a (to me) less good version of something I already like.

I'm not claiming that Zappa's music is definitively soulless, or that people pretend to like or it or anything like that - but for me personally, I just don't "get it", but fair play to others if they do.

[gilbertharding]

Only like Valley Girl.

I hope it burns his piss that I like the song, but hate what I presume is the satirical intent.

Same thing goes for his couple of appearances on The Monkees. "That song was pretty white..." Yeah - and 1000 times better than anything you'll ever do, Frank.

[lazyhour]

Weird Al's parody is pretty good as well, although I know some find it a bit too on the nose.

Yeah, it's great fun if you're familiar with Zappa's music.

https://youtu.be/ZwFf9vGRqcs

[Petey Pate]

The thing about Zappa, you know when you're a teenager and discover irony for the first time and think it's the coolest thing ever to be aloof and insincere all the time, well I feel like that was Frank, except he never grew out of it. He seems to've spent his whole professional life hiding behind a wall of cynicism and disdain, never ever allowing himself to be "real" or let anyone in. Clearly massively intelligent(and knew it) and a brilliant composer, but totally closed off.

I think a lot of his worldview was informed by his arrest and brief imprisonment for 'conspiracy to commit pornography' back in the mid-60s. I was really into Zappa but I've not really revisited his stuff much in recent years, probably cause I've moved past my 'aloof and insincere' period. 

In addition to Captain Beefheart, listening to the likes of Johnny 'Guitar' Watson or George Duke's solo work is another way to experience Zappa-like music but without the more annoying aspects of Zappa.

Also any Zappa thread, positive or negative, should include this clip from Tom Scharpling's Best Show on WFMU.  Even as a fan, it's spot on and hilarious about everything that people object to about him.

https://archive.org/details/podcast_best-show-gems-with-tom-scharp_bryce-calls-about-frank-zappa_1000122519275