Oliver Stone

[12 Storey Crisis]

For some reason, I've been seeing a lot of Oliver Stone movies recently (bought The Doors & Salvador on DVD a while back, and caught Nixon on TV a few nights ago).

I was just wondering what other Verbwhores make of him as a director? I know some critics argue that his output tends to be too simplistically left-wing - and that JFK doc BBC2 last year certainly looks to have defintively put paid to Stone's conspiracy theory - but I always enjoy his movies nonetheless (not just the aforementioned films, but also Platoon, Talk Radio, U-Turn, Born On The 4th July Natural Born Killers & Scarface, which he of course wrote).

I know he made documentaries on Castro and the Israel/Palestine conflict within the past couple of years, but they are incredibly hard to find. Has anyone here seen them?

Also, is Midnight Express worth seeing?

[king mob]

Hes a love him or hate him type of director, i love his work so bleeerughhh to his haters;)

Midnight Express is very much worth seeing but even more essential is Salvador which is probably still my fave Stone film.

As for that JFK doc, well i'm off home so i may have a rightous pop at that later.

[Purple Tentacle]

Heheh, we had a right set-to about that JFK docu on the old boards, my opinion at the time was that it was an interesting documentary, but definitely not definitive.

I absolutely LOVE Nixon, Hopkins bears absolutely no resemblence to Richard Nixon but pulls it off magnificently, the awkward gestures, the mannerisms, lovely.

A good, solid, quality film. The bleeding steak scene rarely leaves my mind.

Surprisingly sensitive too, imagine making a biopic of Richard Nixon that actually makes you feel empathy for the guy..... great achievement.


Didn't get on with Platoon funnily enough, I thought Kubrick and Coppolla's work was more engaging, but I'm clearly in a minority of one.


JFK is far far too pious, but his editing and use of sound rivals Scorsese, and never fails to bring out goose-bumps.

An immensely important man in the field of fillum.

[Marcus Or Relius]

I've never seen Nixon and no-one's ever recommended it to me before, but after the above couple of posts I fink I'll try and rent or buy it sometime.

I enjoyed JFK and Platoon and I love Natural Born Killers. Virtually everyone I've met utterly hates NBK but I thought it was great for the same reasons most people despise it - the whacky visuals, the rapid cuts and OTT performances from everyone. It also has the best soundtrack of any movie ever, IMHO. The DVD has some interesting deleted-scenes, including one of a couple of body-builders in wheelchairs who, during an interview with Wayne Gayle, express their admiration for Mickey & Mallory - even though aforementioned pair chainsawed off their legs.

I found The Doors a little boring, as with Born On The Fourth Of July, but on the whole Olly's films get my two-thumbs-up.

[12 Storey Crisis]

Now this is interesting...with regard to the JFK doc, what do people not think it's definitive. Speaking as someone who was a confirmed sceptic of the lone madman explanation (not to mention someone who lapped up James Ellroy and Bill Hicks' incendiary takes on the authoritarian "go back to bed America" response of the US political establishment), I found it to be compelling and convincing. But by all, means prove me wrong!

[12 Storey Crisis]

Btw, has anyone else seen Talk Radio? One of the great 'lost' films of the eighties. Incredibly claustrophobic, menacing atmosphere, and a stellar performance from Eric Bogosian in the lead role.

[Purple Tentacle]

But by all, means prove me wrong!

Arrrgh you tempress! It kind of reached a Stalemate last time, but if I remember rightly my critisism of the documentary were:

1) Too much time devoted to character assassination: Yes, Oswald was an unpleasent man, No, Garrison is not the saint that Costner portrayed him to be, Yes Jack Ruby was an extrovert. But too many of the "lead" characters were written off as "unreliable" or "show-offs" and discounted out-of-hand, without a decent examination of other mitigating factors (Ruby and Shaw's ties with the CIA for instance

2) The REALLY interesting conspiracy factors were virtually ignored (the three hobos, Oswald's defection AND UNHINDERED RETURN, the removal and loss of Kennedy's brain), and replaced by unsavoury Republican-types virtually telling us that we are silly children to believe such nonsense.

3) Gavin Esler is such a fucking prick.

4) While there was an incredibly compelling case for the rear-shot theory, there was virtually no examination of the grassy knoll theory, simply saying "our theory is very plausable, therefore all other theories are wrong".... it MAY have come from the book depository, or it MAY have come from the knoll..... there was no solid proof one way or another.

The magic bullet explanation was wonderful though, although I still find the "jet spray" explanation of why Kennedy's head jerked back a tad speculative.



I hasten to add that I'm not a conspiracy nut, I just have a big problem with sloppy-mouthed yankophiles telling me that THIS is the TRUTH and then not scientifically eliminating the other possibilites.

[Munday's Chylde]

Hes a love him or hate him type of director, i love his work so bleeerughhh to his haters;)

No, it's not a two camps job at all. I could put at least one of his films in my top ten best ever and at least another in my top ten worst. I prefer him if he isn't playing pop video director myself.

[bill hicks]

No I'm with you Purple. Full Metal Jacket is the better film, and Apocalypse has more to say. Platoon wants to be profound, but Stone just doesn't do porfundity.

Still love his work. My legendary Media Studies teacher maintained that Natural Born Killers was the best film ever made, and his arguments when you watch the film are very persuasive...it is asthonishingly good cinema, if a little clunky in places.

One that no-one seems to have seen is Any Given Sunday. Yes it's about American Football, but it really does sum up everything that's great about Stone. The whole thing examines male identity and machismo (Platoon), Corporate power and greed (Wall Street) and uses just about every trick in the book to do it.

I think I read that the average shot length was just over a second. Highly recommended.

Oh and his Castro doc is apparently rubbish.

[bill hicks]

But by all, means prove me wrong!

Arrrgh you tempress! It kind of reached a Stalemate last time, but if I remember rightly my critisism of the documentary were:

1) Too much time devoted to character assassination: Yes, Oswald was an unpleasent man, No, Garrison is not the saint that Costner portrayed him to be, Yes Jack Ruby was an extrovert. But too many of the "lead" characters were written off as "unreliable" or "show-offs" and discounted out-of-hand, without a decent examination of other mitigating factors (Ruby and Shaw's ties with the CIA for instance

2) The REALLY interesting conspiracy factors were virtually ignored (the three hobos, Oswald's defection AND UNHINDERED RETURN, the removal and loss of Kennedy's brain), and replaced by unsavoury Republican-types virtually telling us that we are silly children to believe such nonsense.

3) Gavin Esler is such a fucking prick.

4) While there was an incredibly compelling case for the rear-shot theory, there was virtually no examination of the grassy knoll theory, simply saying "our theory is very plausable, therefore all other theories are wrong".... it MAY have come from the book depository, or it MAY have come from the knoll..... there was no solid proof one way or another.

The magic bullet explanation was wonderful though, although I still find the "jet spray" explanation of why Kennedy's head jerked back a tad speculative.



I hasten to add that I'm not a conspiracy nut, I just have a big problem with sloppy-mouthed yankophiles telling me that THIS is the TRUTH and then not scientifically eliminating the other possibilites.

I can't remember the doc but did they manage to explain why the autopsy photo strongly suggests the presence of a big fuck off exit wound on the back of his head?

[12 Storey Crisis]

Whilst I did enjoy Platoon, I too also prefer both Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now. With regard to the Purple's Kennedy doc refutation, I dunno, I still think the doc was very, very good - and I want SO MUCH to believe the conspiracy theories!

I actaully thought Any Given Sunday was quite boring, it's one of only two occasions where I actually fell asleep in a cinema (the other being Attack Of The Clones). I thought Pacino was a bit hammy, and as for Cameron Diaz...I remember Stone being asked what it was like to work with her, his reply was, "I love watching her, she has such incredible elegance, a real movie star face, so attractive on screen..." I remember thinking that it sounded more like he had a hard-on for her than actually rated her as an actress.

Hmmm, NBK the best film of all time. I thought it was good, but not quite that good!

[12 Storey Crisis]

I can't remember the doc but did they manage to explain why the autopsy photo strongly suggests the presence of a big fuck off exit wound on the back of his head?

I think the point the doc was trying to make was that the wound on the back of his head was attributable solely to the shot from the book repository - hence the putative confirmation of the lone-gun man theory.

Christ, I'll be voting GOP next...

[bill hicks]

Whilst I did enjoy Platoon, I too also prefer both Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now. With regard to the Purple's Kennedy doc refutation, I dunno, I still think the doc was very, very good - and I want SO MUCH to believe the conspiracy theories!

I actaully thought Any Given Sunday was quite boring, it's one of only two occasions where I actually fell asleep in a cinema (the other being Attack Of The Clones). I thought Pacino was a bit hammy, and as for Cameron Diaz...I remember Stone being asked what it was like to work with her, his reply was, "I love watching her, she has such incredible elegance, a real movie star face, so attractive on screen..." I remember thinking that it sounded more like he had a hard-on for her than actually rated her as an actress.

Hmmm, NBK the best film of all time. I thought it was good, but not quite that good!

I like Pacino in it. When he delivers the big speech during the last game I still get chills. Plus Stone uses Labradford as the score for that bit too. Excellent taste.

Oh and on a related note: Does anyone else agree that Oliver Stone does the best commentaries out of any directors? Everyone I've seen him do is excellent, very informative and always worth listening to til the end. Only Ridley Scott can compete in my opinion.

[gazzyk1ns]

Heheh, we had a right set-to about that JFK docu on the old boards, my opinion at the time was that it was an interesting documentary, but definitely not definitive.

Hehe yes, I like to think of it as a "Michael Moore"-type film... on one level it's entertainment... but it's full of lies and largely a publicity/hype vehicle.

[12 Storey Crisis]

Whilst I did enjoy Platoon, I too also prefer both Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now. With regard to the Purple's Kennedy doc refutation, I dunno, I still think the doc was very, very good - and I want SO MUCH to believe the conspiracy theories!

I actaully thought Any Given Sunday was quite boring, it's one of only two occasions where I actually fell asleep in a cinema (the other being Attack Of The Clones). I thought Pacino was a bit hammy, and as for Cameron Diaz...I remember Stone being asked what it was like to work with her, his reply was, "I love watching her, she has such incredible elegance, a real movie star face, so attractive on screen..." I remember thinking that it sounded more like he had a hard-on for her than actually rated her as an actress.

Hmmm, NBK the best film of all time. I thought it was good, but not quite that good!

I like Pacino in it. When he delivers the big speech during the last game I still get chills. Plus Stone uses Labradford as the score for that bit too. Excellent taste.

Oh and on a related note: Does anyone else agree that Oliver Stone does the best commentaries out of any directors? Everyone I've seen him do is excellent, very informative and always worth listening to til the end. Only Ridley Scott can compete in my opinion.

He uses Labradford?! Which track? I love them, especially Mi Medea Naranja and Fixed: Context. Speaking of which, is the track Up To Pizmo - from the latter album - named after the scene in the Big Lebowski where John Good man is scattering Donny's ashes? There's a moment where he talks about the washes drifting "up to Pizmo". Coincidence? Surely not!

And yeah, I agree that Stone's commentaries are always insightful and informative. I also enjoy David Fincher's commentary tracks on Seven and Fight Club.

[12 Storey Crisis]

Heheh, we had a right set-to about that JFK docu on the old boards, my opinion at the time was that it was an interesting documentary, but definitely not definitive.

it's full of lies

Are you talking about the doc or the Stone film? Cos if it's the doc I'd like to know what the lies are. I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely just curious. As I said above, I was coming from a position of extreme scepticism and I found the documentary to be very convincing.

[El Unicornio, mang]

No I'm with you Purple. Full Metal Jacket is the better film, and Apocalypse has more to say. Platoon wants to be profound, but Stone just doesn't do porfundity.

.

Gotta disagree there. FMJ is good for the first hour, but after that it just gets annoying, with characters who you don't care about either way, and filming in London was just plain stupid.
Apocalypse Now, although a great film, is a very unrealistic portrayal of Vietnam.
From what I've heard, Platoon is the favourite with Vietnam vets as it is the most truthful to how it really was.

As for Stone's other work, I like JFK, Scarface and Salvador, Midnight Express is okay, NBK I find quite tasteless

[gazzyk1ns]

Are you talking about the doc or the Stone film? Cos if it's the doc I'd like to know what the lies are. I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely just curious. As I said above, I was coming from a position of extreme scepticism and I found the documentary to be very convincing.

Shit, I kind of misread Tentacle's post there, didn't I - I meant that the Stone film was full of lies. I agree with you about the doc.

[daveytaylor]

Stone, for me, is a genius. He has his off days (the fucking music in Wall Street was one), as do all directors, but he is one of only a handful of auteurs left. I've seen the majority of his work I still marvel at it after numerous watches.

More Ollie, please.

[Marcus Or Relius]

I was wondering what Oliver Stone had done recently and found, on the IMDB, he's currently working on a flick titled Alexander, due for release this year.

It's about Alexander The Great and is set to star Anthony Hopkins, Brian Blessed and Jared Leto (the yuppie in American Psycho who gets a lecture about Hewy Lewis & The News before being introduced to a big axe). As someone moderately interested in history it sounds promising.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Confusingly, there's another Alexander the Great film out next year, directed by Baz Lurhman and starring Leo Dicaprio. Be interesting to see which one does better box office (my money's on Baz's flick)

[daveytaylor]

Confusingly, there's another Alexander the Great film out next year, directed by Baz Lurhman and starring Leo Dicaprio. Be interesting to see which one does better box office (my money's on Baz's flick)

That should be interesting. I love Lurhmann's work as well (though I haven't seen Moulin Rouge because I hate musicals with a passion) but I figure that Lurhmann is more loved by the Hollywood top brass than Stone so I don't think this battle will be fought on quality of the film but on billboards and advertising. If that's the case then Lurhmann will win.

[terminallyrelaxed]

I find him extremely variable. I have a lot fo respect for Platoon, it may be a bit heavy-handed and Defoe and Barnes are a bit over the top, but I thnk its impressive for an early effort. Naturally I think Full Metal Jacket is better, and Apocalypse Now superior to any in the genre.
I think Natural Born Killers is an appalling film, and it can't just be the way its shot, although I've only seen it once so I won't try and figure out why, maybe I just didnt  like it. And its not really his fault.
Midnight Express I vaguely remember as being rather harrowing stuff, but good - I kept watching it til the end anyway.
JFK - well, it all just seemed a bit "yeah, so? 4 Hours?" It should have been called 'One Man's Blinkered Obsession With JFK', I mean I'm as interested as the next person, and want to hear the different theories, and if Stone wants to do a mommoth treatise on the entire affair then fine, I think he's qualified, but instead we get this unlikeable Garrison guy played by barely likeable Costner, for fucking hours on end, making an arse of himself. Thumbs Down.
I thought Nixon was ok, strange indeed to sympathise with the man. Talk Radio was good too, but don't really remember much apart from being quite surprised that such an uneventful film could have such tension.
I do however quite like Any Given Sunday. I didnt think much the first time, but on a second viewing I really appreciated it. As someone said it does pack all the elements of the macho psyche, and I think the american sports genre, right in there, and I think Pacino is great in it. Its quite a window on the bizarre world of American Football. I would reccomend people giving it a second go.

[Munday's Chylde]

One that no-one seems to have seen is Any Given Sunday. Yes it's about American Football, but it really does sum up everything that's great about Stone..

Yep, that would be the one on my top ten worst films ever i'm afraid.

[bill hicks]

Whilst I did enjoy Platoon, I too also prefer both Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now. With regard to the Purple's Kennedy doc refutation, I dunno, I still think the doc was very, very good - and I want SO MUCH to believe the conspiracy theories!

I actaully thought Any Given Sunday was quite boring, it's one of only two occasions where I actually fell asleep in a cinema (the other being Attack Of The Clones). I thought Pacino was a bit hammy, and as for Cameron Diaz...I remember Stone being asked what it was like to work with her, his reply was, "I love watching her, she has such incredible elegance, a real movie star face, so attractive on screen..." I remember thinking that it sounded more like he had a hard-on for her than actually rated her as an actress.

Hmmm, NBK the best film of all time. I thought it was good, but not quite that good!

I like Pacino in it. When he delivers the big speech during the last game I still get chills. Plus Stone uses Labradford as the score for that bit too. Excellent taste.

Oh and on a related note: Does anyone else agree that Oliver Stone does the best commentaries out of any directors? Everyone I've seen him do is excellent, very informative and always worth listening to til the end. Only Ridley Scott can compete in my opinion.

He uses Labradford?! Which track? I love them, especially Mi Medea Naranja and Fixed: Context. Speaking of which, is the track Up To Pizmo - from the latter album - named after the scene in the Big Lebowski where John Good man is scattering Donny's ashes? There's a moment where he talks about the washes drifting "up to Pizmo". Coincidence? Surely not!

And yeah, I agree that Stone's commentaries are always insightful and informative. I also enjoy David Fincher's commentary tracks on Seven and Fight Club.

Apologies, I got my bits messed up.

Labradford are on the soundtrack, although not the CD, but I'd have to watch the film again to remember where in the film. The track is 'WR' from Mi Media Naraja.

Also on the soundtrack, again not the CD, are the even more obscure and post-rocky Rachel's with 'On Demeter' from the Selenography LP.

The bit with Pacino's amazing speech is scored by Paul Kelly, a track called Peace.  It's available on his LP Soundings In Film but it's a bitch to get hold of.

EDIT:

Uploaded the track to the first bit of webspace I could find. This is a great speech, and a great piece of music too:

http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/inbetweendays/audio/peace.mp3

[Lord Spong]

Btw, has anyone else seen Talk Radio? One of the great 'lost' films of the eighties. Incredibly claustrophobic, menacing atmosphere, and a stellar performance from Eric Bogosian in the lead role.

I've seen it.  I remember it was on late at night on either BBC1 or BBC2 years ago.  I think it might have been part of a 'Moviedrome' season, beacuse I'm sure I can remember Alex Cox or somebody doing an intro piece to it.  Anyway, I remember I really enjoyed it, I'd love to see it again.  The only other film I've seen Eric Bogosian in is 'Under Siege 2: Dark Territory'..

[jutl]

Btw, has anyone else seen Talk Radio? One of the great 'lost' films of the eighties. Incredibly claustrophobic, menacing atmosphere, and a stellar performance from Eric Bogosian in the lead role.

I've seen it.  I remember it was on late at night on either BBC1 or BBC2 years ago.  I think it might have been part of a 'Moviedrome' season, beacuse I'm sure I can remember Alex Cox or somebody doing an intro piece to it.  Anyway, I remember I really enjoyed it, I'd love to see it again.  The only other film I've seen Eric Bogosian in is 'Under Siege 2: Dark Territory'..

He's in Atom Egoyan's Ararat as well - good performance in a good film (as with Talk Radio). I seem to remember that Bogosian was actually a DJ, and that Talk Radio was based on a play he wrote about his experiences.

[Ronson]

stalin

[king mob]

Dont forget he made the Michael Caine classic "The Hand"

[Ronson]

stalin