"Oh well it's all slap bass and smug Friends-style wankery"

[Neil]

How is it that so many British people just don't seem to get Seinfeld?  It's the greatest show around (although Curb is gearing up to eclipse it), but so many Brits aren't prepared to put in a little bit of work to reap the benefits.  It's amazing that it always recieves pretty much the same criticism from people (see subject line), why is the slap bass even important?!  Why is it even worth mentioning just to dismiss the show?!  Seinfeld is certainly not without its flaws...someone very wisely said on here before that Jerrry doesn't so much act as deliver lines as if they're part of his stand-up routine, but the slap-bass remarks and Friends comparisons are just daft, and the latter proves that the complainer hasn't put enough time into the show.  The characters in Seinfeld are real, they talk flippantly about peoples habits or foibles, they have genuinely nasty sides to them....

I could go on about this series all day and night, I'm just curious why people always dismiss it with the same reasons.

[12 Storey Crisis]

I like Seinfeld, although to be honest I probably prefer Curb Your Enthusiasm. I have to say, though, that Jerry Seinfeld's stand-up is absolutely first-class, just hysterically funny. I think I probably laughed as much at that one-off TV special he did (may even have been released on video?) as I've ever laughed at anything in my life...

[grindyourmind]

It's crap. I hate the bits with the slap bass.

[dan dirty ape]

It's admittedly clutching at straws, but  maybe part of the blame can be down to the haphazard way it was scheduled on BBC2, seemingly always on a double bill with Larry Sanders, as if the two were like The Pink Panther and Crazylegs Crane or something, and often slung out after midnight when they'd normally be showing some shite like Grace Under Pressure.  Seinfeld is, as you say, a grower (I didn't really get into it until I saw 'The Contest' and the subsequent two episodes, with all the little back references like George getting aroused by the silhouette of a nurse sponging a woman down next to his mum's hospital bed.).and it  took me a while to appreciate how agreeably fucked up the characters actually are. Watching some of the first series, before it had found its feet, I remember thinking it was, well, alright, then from the second series onwards, when I started to appreciate it, you seemed to have to really search for it round the schedules.

[NobodyGetsOutAlive]

It does seem to me that people do just tar it with the Will and Grace/Friends brush and say "sod this yank wank, I'm popping on Only Fools and Horses*!!" without really getting to grips with how perfectly detailed the characters are.

I think also the problem might be the realism of the show - some lines and conversations are there just to add to the mood of the scene as opposed to  get to a punchline and every scene doesn't close with a joke like Friends certainly does, therefore not satisfying people's appetites for joke-after-joke hilarity. Which is a fucking shame really.


*I do like OFAH incidentally

[Neil]

Yeah that's a good point, not every conversation is there to advance a story.  It's just so well written that it's bloody annoying when people compare it to Friends...the dovetailing storylines are brilliant and, at their best (see The Marine Bioligist) you know they're coming but they still catch you completely unawares.  It's sitcom perfection.

[NobodyGetsOutAlive]

Yes, the dovetailing plots are tremendous. I love the way they make up for the realistic characters by having outrageeous plots which somehow just manage to come together in the end in the most fantastic way.

Curb...has this too, although it's more just the themes that recur than the plots that link up, if that makes any sense although sometimes this doesn't work perfectly, which is a shame.

Spoliers:

Take "The Terrorist Attack" for instance, the bit at the end with Larry revealing that secret is so obvious that you can see it coming before it actually happens, but then the show ends as soon as he tell her, leaving the end at an anti-climax. It would be better if Alanis had chased him out of the house or something as the music played instead of just leaving Larry whispering in Mindy's ear.

But that's a minor niggle that I'm only going on about because I watched that episode last night and the ending felt spoiled.

But yes, Seinfeld was fucking tremendous and should be loved by all. As should Curb.

[Rev]

See, I dismissed Seinfeld when it was on BBC2, and only came round to it a couple of years ago.  The main problem is that, on the surface, it does seem to be yet another standard American sitcom, the kind of stuff that the networks over there grind out like sausage.  Jerry doesn't do much to help this, for the delivery reason already mentioned, and having sat through many a sitcom-vehicle-for-a-stand-up type effort, it's natural to expect him to be the best thing in the show, and the rest of the cast to just be there for him to bounce jokes off of.  I had to watch a good few episodes before I really got into the thing.  Did anyone like it from the moment they clapped eyes on it?

[TOCMFIC]

I actually liked the show when it was this obscure little beast on the BBC... But then I came to Canada, where it was on about 7 times a day, every day, and everyone was obsessed with it.

Basically, I came to where it was popular and lost interest because it wasn't this quirky little show anymore, EVERYONE was blathering about it, and I got sick of it.

[Munday's Chylde]

Seinfelds not a dipper though, thats the problem - as someone said a lot of the pleasure comes from it's constant back referencing. I was trying to talk a friend into borrowing my discs but when finally agreed to give it a go he wanted to know which episode to watch... I was like, "No! You must watch all of them, IN ORDER!" and he reluctantly agreed... I then realised that meant he would probably get as far as episode two and go "nope" so I snatched the discs back, pouted and told him he couldnt have them.

Interestingly I had no such fears with curb, I know as long as I can get them to agree to at least watch the first three then I'll have them hooked... Does that make it a better show? THe jurys still out in my head... I think I may be swaying towards Curb these days though.

[Marcus Or Relius]

I liked most Seinfeld episodes, there were some really imaginative scenarious, such as the one where the scenes were placed in reverse order (like the movie Momento) and another where Seinfeld and The Short Fat One were somehow mistaken for the guests of honour at a Neo-Nazi rally.

The main problem I have with it is simply the awkward scheduling. It would usually be on somewhere between eleven and twelve on BBC2 when I'd either be heading to bed or, having decided there was fuck all on earlier in the evening, had sat down to watch a video or play endless computer games and would not give late-night programmes a second thought.

The slap-bass pisses me off though. It sounds like a guitar vomiting up a big greasy kebab, but it didn't detract from a lot cracking lines.

[Jemble Fred]

I'm not one of those who's ever compared the show to Friends or had a go at the slap-bass, (although that is undeniably wanky) because I don't know why I dislike Seinfeld, or why the characters are like nails down a blackboard to me.

I hope I can safely say that I have good taste in comedy, but neither Curb nor Seinfeld hold my attention. I watched the first three or four Curbs when they were on BBC2, and I was sadly forced to admit that it was just self-indulgent twaddle to me - I've seen half-arsed home videos far funnier.

A case in point - I saw one episode where (what's his name? Larry?) got into a pickle because someone he was with thought he had an erection and it was just the way his trousers rucked up. This took over the whole episode, as I recall, and yet in real life it wouldn't even be referred to. It seemed to be the equivalent of (f'rinstance) Basil Fawlty spending half an hour getting in a paddy over salt in the sugar bowl.

But Seinfeld and Curb are probably the only shows that I am prepared to accept are great works, without personally enjoying them. You lot and Linehan & Mathews can't be wrong, even if Alison Graham can.

And if I have to thank Jerry, Kramer et al for Father Ted and Black Books, then all power to all of their elbows.

[elderford]

Not much to add, around that time I was a huge fan of both Seinfeld and Larry Sanders, but it really did get tiresome chasing it around the schedules.

I don't understand how the reasoning works with TV schedulers at times.

Both were excellent shows, but deemed buriable and moveable, it did feel like an effort to find what day and time it (the double bill) had been moved to this week.

The other point has been made, that yes indeed it was a grower. At first glance Seinfeld's character came across as: he can't really act, he is a loud, brash New Yorker. And we've all seen those comedy vehicles whereby a stand-up gets a sit-com and doesn't pull it off.

The strength of the show was that all the characters were flawed and mainly caused their own downfall, George being a case in point, the episode where his mother caught him masturbating was pure fried gold, or the way he constantly wanted a girlfriend but would reject them for perceived flaws only he was aware of.

I particularly enjoyed it once they had their sit-com about nothing gag up and running, it really was a joy to watch at times.

...but, if you joined it in the middle of the run, I'm sure they would all come across as irritatingly whiney, always complaining about imagined complaints, a kind of what is wrong with these people? response from the viewer who thought that zany Kramer was the only funny character.

[5:09am]

I never really got into Seinfeld until BBC2 aired the final series a couple of years ago. I then borrowed all the episodes from a friend and was simply stunned that this could have passed me by till then. I'm constantly suprised by how many people find the slap bass grating. It just fails to even register with me after a few episodes.

I think the main reason I rate Seinfeld as my favourite show is that I just like all the characters. I've often heard Kramer dismissed as just a wierdo who gets his laughs from opening Jerry's door quickly and falling over a bit, but as the series went on he became much more rounded and believable. In the first series, we're told he never leaves the apartment building but by the end he has the most active live of them all outside the foursome, constantly referring to friends he has outside the circle. Elaine becomes increasingly slutty with each series to the point where she's sleeping with Puddy again because she couldn't move a bureau. George never collapses into a caricature despite most of his comedy coming from being disproportionately angry ('It's so self-absorbed and egotistical, like those hip musicians with their complicated shoes!'). Even Jerry, who is probably the emptiest of them all, succeeds as a character smugly commentating on what the others are up to. And he sounds funny when he tries to raise his voice.

It's clearly not just the characters that make the show work, but it adds so much to the comedy when a likeable character with a rich backstory is put into a cleverly drawn situation rather than just a bland stereotype (see Coupling).

I'm not sure if the series 9 finale worked for me. I never felt that Kramer was as self-absorbed as the others and his filming of the fat guy getting mugged seemed wildy out of character. By the way, has anyone else noticed that in a few episodes in the third or fourth series (I can't remember exactly) Kramer is cheered by the audience as he enters Jerry's apartment a la 'Norm!' in cheers, often so much so that he has to delay delivering his first line? Did they specifically ask the audience not to do this (the practice stops after a few episodes) as it was impinging on his performance?

Also, was that a Seinfeld homage or a rip-off in Frasier last night?

[Neil]

I watched the first three or four Curbs when they were on BBC2, and I was sadly forced to admit that it was just self-indulgent twaddle to me - I've seen half-arsed home videos far funnier.

I believe they've only shown one episode of Curb on BBC2.  The big bastards.

A case in point - I saw one episode where (what's his name? Larry?) got into a pickle because someone he was with thought he had an erection and it was just the way his trousers rucked up. This took over the whole episode, as I recall, and yet in real life it wouldn't even be referred to.

Yeah that's the first show of the first series.  The thing is, in Curb everyone tends to say exactly what is on their minds, especially Larry David.  I honestly think you'd love Seinfeld and Curb if you kept at them, they do both require some work, but don't all the best things?

[jutl]

All I have to add is that the things that made me intolerant of Seinfeld when it was on the TV were

(a) the slap bass
(b) the unashamed observational standup

but most of all

(c) the laugh track

Even now I enjoy an episode far more on my PC, where the low-bitrate DivX encoding takes the belt out of the laughs, than I do in decent quality on Paramount... Odd.

[TotalNightmare]

well, for me its all...

ahhh, i can't be arsed about this topic...

Who wants to play Hungry Hungry Hippos?

[benthalo]

I believe they've only shown one episode of Curb on BBC2.  The big bastards.

Jemble's right, actually. The first three went out after Newsnight during one week last year.

I know what you're getting at Neil, but I've never bought the "put some time in" argument. It reminds me of people rabbitting on about how series 4 of Babylon 5 is absolutely great, but you need to watch the first 78 to appreciate that fact. Balls - series 1 stank and they lost me after that, which I shouldn't be held to task for. If series 4 of Babylon Cocking 5 is any good, it should still be good television show even if I've come to it cold.

Especially in American television, where channel hopping is considered a principal worry with programming making, yes it's great that a show like Seinfeld can survive but you shouldn't necessarily expect people to watch a dozen in order to hold a valid point of view.

I'm of the belief that a first episode is incredibly important and makes or breaks a show in so many ways other than whether it's scheduled poorly or loses viewers. The first episodes of This Life, Auf Wiedersehen Pet, Steptoe & Son, Survivors and Boys From The Blackstuff amongst others were all 30/50-minute slices of television which made you feel that you knew the characters instantly, full of an energy in writing and performance which almost seemed like the characters had already existed. A truly great series does this. Of course I give them an extra chance because not every show is capable of this, but Seinfeld has never made me feel this way.

I've heard this multi-episode view trotted out countless times re Seinfeld, on message boards, on the radio and in pub conversations, but I've always held it with suspicion I'm afraid. American TV has all too frequently been outside of my viewing habits not because of any form of xenophobia or dislike of their output in total (they innovated a lot in television, and HBO stuff is usually great) but because of the committment involved. If I watch a show, I do feel the need to keep up on it and 26 a year is just a bit too much. I like to stay loyal to shows I enjoy, but I also flit around because there's so much I want to see before I die. I find it difficult enough to keep up with DVD releases, and you can probably imagine the problem for yourself if you don't already experience it.

All of which is a side issue, but I fancied airing it.

Personally, I've got no problem with the slap bass but the characters never grabbed me. I've tried a few times with Seinfeld but its always left me cold.

[Virtually Perennially]

I enjoy Seinfeld well enough. Brilliantly written. However, the whiny nasal* tones of three of the four main characters grate hugely with me, as do (yes) the slap bass and the age old formulaic exterior shot of whatever building they're in next, plus the overall New Yoik atmosphere of perfect manicures and squeaky clean sneakers (which is the only possible Friends connection I can see, and goes for Sex and the City and all sorts too - it's just New Yoik I suppose). As usual with american series, there was more of it than I needed, but I think the standard was maintained throughout to a better degree than usual.

I like the way all the characters are unsympathetic. You wouldn't want any of them as your friend, like with Daffy Duck.


*Anti-americanism rather than anti-semitism, I think.

(Re: slap bass, laugh tracks, etc - I have the power to largely filter these things out after a bit. Not many people here seem to have this ability. Perhaps it's from my mixing days. Built-in faders. I didn't even notice the laugh track in IAP2 until you lot pointed it out.)

[hencole]

I love Curb (best comedy for a long time)and can't wait for them to come to BBC2, as I no longer have access to BBC3. Seinfeld I don't get on with. I like some of the characters, but seinfelds white teeth put me off the rest of the show. I need to see more of them to finally condem it, but they don't seem to be showing it at the moment.

[bill hicks]

I'm in the same position Jemble. I've tried watching them but I just don't like them and can't put my finger on why. I do like Jason Alexander a lot though (Duckman always makes me crack up without fail) so I expect I'd find Seinfeld funny if I gave it a complete run, but I just don't have the time for it.

As for Curb...This is exactly the type of show I should love (I'm a big fan of naturalist cinema and I can definitely relate to the main character a lot), but it just hasn't grabbed me.

I think mainly because I get angry watching it. While I am similar to Larry David in that I tend to get caught up in stupid pointless little cycles of blame and neurosis, I also have what he seems to lack...a strong temper. A particular one for me was the anti-Semitism one. After a while I just got pissed off with his inability to just call the old couple a pair of humourless cunts and storm off. A ridiculous reason to not like the show I know.

Also Larry David's wife is really, really annoying.

Still I have the first three series on disc here and keep meaning to give them a run so maybe I'll change my mind.

I can see why it's a great show, just need to get past my little niggles with it.

[NobodyGetsOutAlive]

I'm not sure if the series 9 finale worked for me. I never felt that Kramer was as self-absorbed as the others and his filming of the fat guy getting mugged seemed wildy out of character.

I agree with this point regarding Kramer incidentally. Often throughout the show we see him attacking Jerry for being the sort of person that they're convicted of in the very end, so Kramer does seem to be more moral and well-spirited, unlike the other 3.

[McChesney Duntz]

By the way, has anyone else noticed that in a few episodes in the third or fourth series (I can't remember exactly) Kramer is cheered by the audience as he enters Jerry's apartment a la 'Norm!' in cheers, often so much so that he has to delay delivering his first line? Did they specifically ask the audience not to do this (the practice stops after a few episodes) as it was impinging on his performance?

Yes, they got the audience to stop cheering his entrances for pretty much that reason (if you pay attention to a couple of the episodes after the practice stops you can actually hear the audience restraining itself, which is one of the odder sounds you'll ever not quite hear.)

(Hello, by the way.  I'm new here.  I'm also an American.  Please don't hate me.)

[Godzilla Bankrolls]

Remember when Kramer was a Karate champion? He beat up little kids.

[jimbobsyouruncle]

Does anyone agree that Seinfeld is really about George, not Seinfeld himself... in the same way that the Simpsons is really about Homer, not Bart.

ok, just me then.

[elderford]

Ditto for Will and Grace, the funny characters are Jack and the woman with the silly voice, with Will & Graces' characters dealing with issues, relationships, etc.

Apologies for mentioning Will & Grace, I will not do it again.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

We all know early episodes of sitcoms are often quite weak in comparison to the rest, but if a sitcom's *holistically* good then you can always see the potential right away. The opening episodes of Fawlty Towers and Only Fools and Horses aren't particularly funny, but they're both beautifully written and constructed with real care. You can see the seeds of their fantasticness being sown.

I dismissed Seinfeld for a long time, assuming it was nothing special. But that was my fault, not the show's - I wasn't watching it as closely as I would other comedy shows. I agree with Bent Halo that the 'It really gets going by show 497' is a bobbins argument, but i'm also in favour of constantly revisiting stuff to view it from another angle. I've never got into M*A*S*H for example, but I know I'd probably love it if I made the effort.

[Neil]

No-one is saying "It really gets going by show 497" or even anything approaching that.  The fact that so many people compare it to Friends is testament to how easy it is completely misjudge the tone of the show.  You need to put some work in to reap the benefits, but isn't that true of all the best things?  (Think of albums like Trout Mask Replica).  A large part of the problem is proably the stereotypes so many people seem to have about American TV and their sitcoms in particular.

[benthalo]

No-one is saying "It really gets going by show 497" or even anything approaching that.

Accepting the comic exaggeration, "you need to put some work in" does seem to suggest this view. Don't you agree that something must have a pull, be it thoughtful dialogue, sympathetic characters, inventive jokes or situations, in order for it to be revisitable? Like, in the first episode you ever see? For you Seinfeld undoubtedly did that, but not me, and that's precisely why I never really touched it again.

A potentially interesting point of discussion might be to ask what set Seinfeld apart on first viewing? This thread has already touched on some of it I know, but as a 'way in' I'd be interested to learn.

You need to put some work in to reap the benefits, but isn't that true of all the best things?  (Think of albums like Trout Mask Replica).

With respect Neil, TMR is an extreme example. TMR was the most beguiling thing in the world when I first heard it, but it was self-evidently awesome from the first listen. I could get to grips with its complexities later.

This is really my point. You can certainly have a more rewarding experience both watching and discussing Seinfeld if you know it well (like anything), but my view is it should be immediately obvious that the potential lies there on first viewing, be it only a glimmer. ELW10 makes an excellent comparison with early OFAH. The seeds are sown.

Mind you, as ELW10 says, I like to revisit and reassess and should a series 1 collection ever surface, I'd probably give it a try.

[Neil]

Accepting the comic exaggeration, "you need to put some work in" does seem to suggest this view.

No it doesn't, his exaggeration (yes I did recognise it as such) suggests that the show starts off crap and gradually gets better.  While I would happily state that mid-period Seinfeld is fantastic and the apex of the form, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the early episodes.  The reason I started this thread is because I'm puzzled by the fact that I hear it compared to Friends so often by people who should know better.  That's what I'm interested in, the rapid dismissal of it, the fact that people cite the slap bass as putting them off the show.  Admittedly, it's usually accompanied with a complaint about the stand-up bits, which I did forget about, but I'm just always baffled by those particular reasons.  

Don't you agree that something must have a pull, be it thoughtful dialogue, sympathetic characters, inventive jokes or situations, in order for it to be revisitable? Like, in the first episode you ever see? For you Seinfeld undoubtedly did that, but not me, and that's precisely why I never really touched it again.

I didn't jump in to Seinfeld at the start, the first ones I saw where those that went out with Larry Sanders on bbc2.  I did enjoy it, and started downloading them randomly once I got on the internet.  Then I watched three or four in a row at some point, with The Marine Biologist being one of them.  That show changed my entire opinion of it because the dove-tailing storyline smacked me in the face and couldn't be ignored.  Up till then I don't think I was aware of it being anything particularly special, it's hard to say really.  So my own experience is that it takes some time to get the best out of it, that's why I advise others to bear with it.

With respect Neil, TMR is an extreme example. TMR was the most beguiling thing in the world when I first heard it, but it was self-evidently awesome from the first listen. I could get to grips with its complexities later.

This is really my point. You can certainly have a more rewarding experience both watching and discussing Seinfeld if you know it well (like anything), but my view is it should be immediately obvious that the potential lies there on first viewing, be it only a glimmer. ELW10 makes an excellent comparison with early OFAH. The seeds are sown.

The thing about Seinfeld is that you need to spend time with it to really understand the characters.  No, they're not the stereotypical sitcom cast where everything is obvious from the first episode, and that's part of what makes it work.  You simply cannot judge it from one episode alone, because it would be impossible to fit all the character traits into one single show.  That, I think, is my point.  People dismiss it too quickly, that's all.  It's a grower.