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Dinner with Stockhausen... help!

Started by abbot lau, October 21, 2005, 03:36:35 PM

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abbot lau

I'm going to a dinner party tonight at which will be 'Godfather of Electronic Music' Karlheinz Stockhausen, and I need help talking to the guy without sounding like someone who knows piss all about Avant-Garde classical music or electronic music.  

Does anyone have any ready-made conversation gambits I can use?  Bear in mind that he thinks all  other  electronic music makers (Including Aphex Twin, Kraftwerk, and pretty much anyone other than him) are charlatans and not fit to worship at his feet. In fact he takes a very dim view of repetitive beats in general.

So given that he's a prickly old geezer with a massive ego and doesn't even give a crap that he was on the Sargeant Pepper cover and thinks he comes from a planet orbiting Sirius,  how the hell am I going to find any common ground?  

Now if he was a Larry David fan...

butnut

Are you serious? You're going to dinner with Stockhausen?

abbot lau

Yeah, I know it seems like a grandiose lie  but incredibly it's true. He's in London going a gig tomorrow as part of this art fair  and my Dad was his agent in the UK in the 70s and 80s  so he's going  to dinner at my parents and I finagled an invitation for myself.

Now I'm shitting it.

butnut

Haha wow. That's very impressive. Yeah I knew about the London gig. I would go but it's £35 a seat.

I've seen Stockhausen at talks a few times. He seemed fairly human at these things, quite charasmatic and not very prickly. He's clearly a very intelligent man. He does seem to only wear white these days, and has 2 women who follow him everywhere. Whether they'll be at the dinner, I don't know. There are also lots of rumours about his bizarre ideas about how all music comes to him from the star-system Sirrius - I don't know how true these are.

I think you've just got to go there and enjoy yourself - I'd be really surprised if he became a monster or anything. He does have strong opinions and a VERY high opinion of himself , like you say up there. Here's a few questions I'd ask:

I'd ask about what it was like in Darmstadt in the 1950s - what the atmosphere of the time was.

I'd ask him questions about how he came to write 'Gruppen' and about its famous first performance.

You could ask him if the use of drugs have ever influenced his music. But I can guess he'll say "NEIN!"

If I was feeling really cheeky, I'd ask him what he'd say if someone accused him of using other people's ideas and then claiming them as his own.

Peking O


abbot lau

Wow, thanks Butnut!

Obviously you know a bunch more about his work than I do. I did go to some of his operas and found them visually amazing but pretty inaccessible music-wise.

I'll do some quick research on Darmstadt and Gruppen, and what with my knowledge of Leon Theremin gleaned from watching a documentary  I might get by.   Maybe I'll ask him about Sun-Ra who would seem to be his Jazz counterpart and a bit more local, coming from Saturn and not all the way out at Sirius.

-and I'm pretty sure he's not a drug user.  I saw a film of a lecture he gave in the 70s where some hippy asked him whether one needed to be on LSD to fully appreciate his music and he said basically, if it works for you then go for it, but he didn't have any use for psychedelics as he was permanently on a higher plane of thought.

abbot lau

Quote from: "Peking O"Ask him about 9/11.


heh heh.

butnut

Heh, I was going to mention the 9/11 thing. Yeah he's always denied the drug thing - I just wondered in more intimate surroundings if he might reveal anything.

From what I've seen of the opera(s), most of the must is really really bad and it saddens me to say it. I'm sure there's some good stuff in there somewhere, but the couple of hours of it I've heard were really really dreary. Which is a surprise from like Stockhausen, as his pieces in the 50s and 60s were anything but dreary. He fell into the old male trap of being obsessed by length - actually that's another good question to ask!

abbot lau

Just had a good idea. I'm going to ask him what he thinks of the hobbit-person they found in indonesia. He's got a bee in his bonnet about Anthropology and it might be interesting to hear him go off on one.


BTW, is it true that he papers said he claimed 911 was 'The greatest work of art ever perpetuated',  when actually he said it was  'The greatest work of art ever perpetuated by Satan'

Just want to get my facts right on this one...

Peking O

Hmm, that's interesting, because I thought he'd retracted the statement? (which would suggest that he did make it in the first place). Could be wrong about that though.

butnut

Here's what he said he said:

http://www.stockhausen.org/message_from_karlheinz.html

EDIT - you will let us know how it went, won't you AL?

Peking O

On a vaguely related note, I'm goint to see this movie tonight. It's about a conspiracy theory claiming that no jews were killed in the WTC attacks. It suggests they were warned in advance about it, and so none of them turned up for work that day (or something barmy like that).

Johnny Yesno

Cor! You lucky man abbot. You could ask him why he doesn't rate Aphex. I know lots of Aphex's stuff wouldn't interest him but Bucephalus Bouncing Ball, for example, is right in the spirit of Kontakte. You could also ask him who he does rate. Has he heard of Oval and Pan Sonic? They've obviously heard of him.

Clinton Morgan

I bet he'd rather talk about Marx Brothers movies.

abbot lau

OK, so here's how it went..

My first impression, strangely, was how big a guy he is. In the sense that he's over 6 feet and just big all over. He was wearing off-white and had the bearing of a benevolent guru. Most of the conversation revolved around him and his work when  he wasn't talkng but as soon as he opened his mouth there was silence. It's funny, a lot has been made of his legendary charisma and ego and being in his presence in an informal setting (there were ten of us including him and his ladies) I got a good idea why this guy is practically worshipped by people on a cult-like basis.

That said, he didn't lord it over anyone and listened intently to anything anyone else had to say. He's got a pretty penetrating stare which made you wonder as you were speaking whether what you're saying is worthy for him to hear.

So here's what came up and what he had to say:

On the Aphex Twin
Not only is he familiar with Aphex Twin's work, he said he spent a day with him when they shared a concert date (I don't know where or when that was but he said the Aphex twin came on much later than him) He said the young man was extremely shy and that while his work was interesting he clearly hadn't spent enough time on his compositions, so they all sounded 'unfinished'.

On Homo Florensis
Not a new genus of humanity, probably just a small pigmy, he reckons. Conversation headed quickly back to music (in particular his music)

On his live performances
He told us about a recent concert in Japan where it took him 45 minutes to get from the mixing desk to the exit because so many young Japanese wanted to shake his hand and get a picture taken with him. He wasn't really complaining, just thought it was funny that the older Japanese were apologising for his being mobbed by admirers when he obviosly relishes the attention. I told him sometimes when a short film I'd made is shown live I can sense the audience getting restless and realise some bits are too long and he said I should never listen to the audience but get the work right in the first place and present it with no apologies.

On Jazz, improvisation, and other types of music (including dance, techno and everything that isn't what he calls 'Art Music')
He's not a big fan of sampling, or any music that contains passages from other pieces. He stressed the importance of originality and not just recycling other people's ideas. Most music released and sold today, he claims, is just 'useful music' (there was a German word for this which I didn't catch. It translated into something like 'workmanlike') ie music you just use to entertain you in the car.

On people's perceptions of his music
He said that in a typical audience of 500 people, maybe only 5 really understood what was going on. He didn't sound particularly satisfied with this number and seemed a bit sad that humanity is taking (and will continue to take) such a long time to become as evolved as him in terms of understanding music. He genuinely believes that music is the highest form of human endeavour and that maybe 100 people in the world are on the cutting edge of this development and the rest are animals doing nothing but surviving and reproducing.  He also said that ideally, someone really determined to understand his music should listen to it for the same time it took to compose. Although he accepted that not everyone has time to listen to Stimmung for 3000 hours or more, some people are actually doing this (presumably people with enough money not to have to go out to work).

Some of the above may sound incredibly elitist and egotistical on the page, but when you hear him say it you can't really stand up to it because:

a) He's very persuasive (the charisma thing again) and he obviously believes 100% in what he's saying.
b) He's STOCKHAUSEN!

Any other stuff
He's a big fan of Astronomy (no surprise there, really) and keeps up to date on the latest discoveries. He's quite excited about the possibility of life under the ice on Europa.

He's not particularly enamoured of the Internet, email, text messaging, answering machines or even telephone calls. He said if someone wants to communicate with him he likes a handwritten letter best, so try your luck!

He also talked a fair bit about his family but it woudn't be right for me to relay all that. I'm sure there was more but I wasn't exactly taking notes.

I hope this provides some insights into the guy for anyone interested. I'll be at the gig tonight and probably won't know what the hell is going on. He told me to get a seat near the middle for the full Octophonic effect.

butnut

Hey that's great! Thanks for posting that. It's always interesting to hear about Stockhausen. Yeah I have no doubt that he believes in what he's saying, he's certainly not a bullshit artist. And it makes a refreshing change to hear people (especially in this country) talking about ideals, and people taking art so seriously. Glad to hear that he's talking about the originality of music still - he is right, most of the music produced in the world these days probably is 'useful.' Whether this is right or wrong is probably for another thread. I don't have a problem with his 'elitism.' The concept of this accusation always confuses  me, as people are generally attacking someone for expecting their audience to do some work, and to think and to take in new things. To me, this is  something that should be encouraged, and don't see why it should be reduced to any sort of 'elite.'

However, I think his ego is a big problem and since the late 60s has affected what he has written. I suppose after being told that you're a genius for 10-15 years, people start to believe it. It does seem to me that if you're not prepared to spend your whole life listening to Stockhausen, then he won't take you that seriously. And there are disciples who do that. OK, that's his opinion, but shows that he's got an ego of Wagnerian proportions.

Thanks again for posting, and let us know how the concert is tonight. I know I'd enjoy it, but like I said, it's £35 and I saw him do a very similar concert some years ago.


abbot lau

Having gone to the gig last Saturday, I reckon simplest way to understanding Stockhausen (that I've found) is to understand that he believes his music (and the composition of what he calls 'Art Music') to be the highest intellectual, physical and spiritual endeavour currently in progress by the human race. Moreover he believes that only by unlocking the mysteries of the universe via music and sounds can mankind evolve to the next level of being.


Granted, it sounds whacked out but the key is he absolutely believes it. In fact at dinner the other night he seemed to pity the 99.99999% of humanity who hadn't realized he is right or were too busy getting killed in earthquakes to listen to his music all the time. Also, if one has discovered what one absolutely believes is the way forward for the human race, and has the charisma and talent to convince others that there might be something in it, it doesn't really matter how uncompromising and demanding the music sounds, people will still go for it.


At the gig I was amused by the crowds of fans who besieged him during the interval and afterwards. He was perfectly happy to hang around and give autographs and discuss stuff with whoever wanted to go up to him, a real class act. Most of the people were quite young, and some rather touchingly asked him questions or told him stuff that you could tell they had rehearsed well in advance. And when the Great Man opened his mouth everyone listened rapt.


The thing is, listening to something like 'Kontakte' on CD and complaining that it is difficult is like watching an IMAX film on a 14" TV and wondering what all the fuss is about. The way it works (as he came up and explained beforehand) is that with the sounds coming from four speakers simultaneously (positioned all around the listener) one is able to make sounds approach the audience from any direction, including from above and below, and have sounds move around the room in straight lines or spirals, fill the room or retreat to one point Anyone with a proper home cinema setup will be familiar with the effect. The added twist is that when the music is heard in complete darkness (it wasn't complete darkness at the concert, probably due to health and safety regulations, but he encouraged us to shut our eyes) one would start experiencing synaesthesia and start 'seeing' the music.   Then one could in his words, 'jump onto a sound and ride it wherever it was going. If you fall off, don't worry, there will be another one along soon'


The interesting thing is that it actually works. Like a mass floatation tank, deprived of vision for 36.5 minutes the mind does start to make up visuals to match the sounds. Mine were pretty sci-fi looking ones which I put down to all the bleeps and stuff.  'Octophonie' was a bit more lyrical and less harsh than 'Kontakte' but the 3D placement of sounds didn't work as well for me as in 'Kontakte', maybe because I wasn't sitting in a very good place.


Anyway, having finally heard the stuff played to its proper technical standards I can now see what some of the fuss is about. When 'Kontakte' finished people were just looking at eachother with something resembling religious enlightenment on their faces. People were murmuring things to their friends like 'Did you hear that? Did you see it?' I can't imagine what people's reactions were in the 50s and 60s. Probably 'Did you dig that?'

Ciarán2

Quote from: "abbot lau"The thing is, listening to something like 'Kontakte' on CD and complaining that it is difficult is like watching an IMAX film on a 14" TV and wondering what all the fuss is about. The way it works (as he came up and explained beforehand) is that with the sounds coming from four speakers simultaneously (positioned all around the listener) one is able to make sounds approach the audience from any direction, including from above and below, and have sounds move around the room in straight lines or spirals, fill the room or retreat to one point Anyone with a proper home cinema setup will be familiar with the effect. The added twist is that when the music is heard in complete darkness (it wasn't complete darkness at the concert, probably due to health and safety regulations, but he encouraged us to shut our eyes) one would start experiencing synaesthesia and start 'seeing' the music.   Then one could in his words, 'jump onto a sound and ride it wherever it was going. If you fall off, don't worry, there will be another one along soon'

I'd love to experience that. Don't suppose there's much chance of catching him at the "Hope & Anchor" anytime soon though.

My collection of Stockhausen records is rather paltry, consisting as it does of one double compilation containing some of his piano works. It's er, "difficult". I still whack it on about once a year though. It cost me something like £40 too. Now that's pathetic...

Edit: I can't type today.

Suttonpubcrawl

My dad has loads of electronic like that on vinyl, they're probably quite valuable now because they were apparently rather hard to get hold of in the first place.

butnut

That was a great post, Abbot Lau.

I've never experienced those visual things that Stockhausen talks about. I've certainly felt sounds move around and it's an amazing experience to be in the middle of something like that, but as I think I'm retarded visually, I don't get those kind of things. Still, glad you liked the concert,  I wish I could have gone.

If you liked that you really must see Gruppen when it's next done in this country. Hearing that live really is one of the best things I've experienced in a concert hall, and I've been lucky enough to hear it twice. If I ever see it's going to be on I'll start a thread in here to alert people.

SPC - if you ever get the urge to encode and upload any of those LPs of your Dad's, I'd be happy to download them!

abbot lau

Quote from: "butnut"

I've never experienced those visual things that Stockhausen talks about. I've certainly felt sounds move around and it's an amazing experience to be in the middle of something like that, but as I think I'm retarded visually, I don't get those kind of things.

It may have helped that my mates and I 'burned one' on the way to the gig...

By the way, I can't believe that this music that depends on proper sourcing of the sounds isn't available on DVD-audio or SACD or even regular DVD. What with more and more people getting surround sound systems it seems like an ideal contender for the 'killer app' to have the Kontakte/Gruppen experience in your own living room (with the lights turned off). Could become a 'Dark side of the moon' for Techno lovers.

Johnny Yesno

Thanks for that abbott. That was really interesting.

Clinton Morgan

Is there anywhere that has a complete discography of Stockhausen? I've got a few works by him ('Invisible Choir', 'Song of the Youths' taped from Radio 3 and a tape of compositions for solo clarinet).

Johnny Yesno

Stockhausen was interviewed on The Culture Show yesterday. Annoyingly, I only discovered this when I happened to turn the telly over to BBC2 not long before the end so I didn't catch the whole interview. There's a repeat on Saturday but, according to my telly guide, it's a repeat of the one featuring Banksy.

splattermac

I don't know if his 11 minute interview was particularly enlightening. They billed him as a megalomaniac and the posters in this thread have done a good job convincing me a 'Stockhausen' should be a recognized measurement of ego.

I was expecting grand white robes and entourage a la Jodorowsky's alchemist from Holy Mountain but what I got was a slightly spaced out looking elderly gent.

First question.

Interviewer: what is the most beautiful sound you have ever heard?

Long pause suggesting wryly that silence might be the answer

The haus: I don't know

Interviewer: Do you hum or whistle tunes like the rest of us? (I thought the interview might as well have said 'oi Karlheinz, can't whistle your tunes mate, rubbish!)  

The haus: yes, my own.

The haus then went on to say he's conducted romantic baroque classics and didn't set out to destroy it as that would be disrespectful, rather he just left it as it was and moved on. Disciples studied the classics and now he has left behind his own legacy for study. They should have got Sun Ra to interview him but it might have lead to an interplanetary battle.

Some of the clips made his work look ridiculous and I've never got on with what I've heard by him but I like reading about musicians so hence my participation in this thread.

Clinton Morgan


splattermac

Haven't you ever heard of Sun Ra the ever living?

humanleech

Abbot. These postings are utterly fascinating, and thankyou. The last piece  of Stockhausen that I listened to was 'Stimmung' which was like a soft harmonic bath, and I hated it.
I'm not well-versed, but I believe the avenue opened by his 50s and (some of) his 60s compositions hasn't really been explored by anyone. It all seems to be mathematics on one side and minimalism on the other.
I've got an electronic version of Kontakte for two speakers, and I'm wondering what I'm missing, so I envy you.

In case this hasn't been posted before, here is a little discussion of sorts between Stockhausen and makers of modern 'electronica'.
http://www.stockhausen.org/ksadvice.html
I think his observations are very accurate myself - modern electronica is far too concerned with repetition and hypnotic effects.

Not catatonia. Music that has to be listened to, as Van Vliet would agree.

butnut

Quote from: "Clinton Morgan"Is there anywhere that has a complete discography of Stockhausen? I've got a few works by him ('Invisible Choir', 'Song of the Youths' taped from Radio 3 and a tape of compositions for solo clarinet).

You can buy many of his works from his website:

http://www.stockhausen.org/cd_catalog.html

It's not a fully complete discograhy though but it's the closest I can see. There are some pieces released on labels other than his own. These will generally be a lot less expensive.

On his site I found an interview he gave with the Guardian that 'they didn't print.' Here's an interesting moment:

QuoteCan music - your music in particular - offer metaphorical solutions for the mundaneproblems of the world today?

Stockhausen: My music has already reduced enormously "the mundane problems ofthe world." The incredible number of hours of all people listening to my works (thinking of all the CDs, films, concerts) is keeping the listeners away from themundane problems. If someone wants to experience each composition just once, he needs to have a least 130 free hours of listening quietly to the ca. 130 CDs, and manyhave already bought all my CDs.

PDF link of interview:

http://www.stockhausen.org/questions-for-K-stockhausen.pdf