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March 28, 2024, 08:34:02 AM

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Your opinion on Robbie

Started by rjd2, November 17, 2005, 08:09:42 PM

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Robbie

He's an egotistical overrated useless gimp who really should go away.
107 (68.2%)
I'm not his biggest fan but I like some of his stuff and besides there is much worse pop music out their at the moment.
50 (31.8%)

Total Members Voted: 157

Voting closed: November 17, 2005, 08:09:42 PM

Cack Hen

Quote from: "Whirlybird"
I'm not sure I agree though...they're creating the demand, after all.  I think you can't really seperate them, the right-wing paper needs right-wing twits to peddle fear to, and the right-wing twits need something to fear.

Oh, I'm not saying that excluding the fanbase from your criticisms entirely is the way to go, I'm just saying that it's probably only worth including that side of the argument if it has some relevance to why you think Robbie Williams makes bad music. Do you genuinely think that he continues to make middle of the road music because his fans are musically unadventerous? I think that's the only question you should need to ask yourself when debating music in a music forum. As I've said, debates about subjectivity are never ending because there's always a few people who come to a disagreement on such a fundamental level that you can't really get any worthy points across beyond your initial ones. Which is why I think there are some circumstances where the agree to disagree policy is appropriate.

Whirlybird

Quote from: "Cack Hen"Oh, I'm not saying that excluding the fanbase from your criticisms entirely is the way to go, I'm just saying that it's probably only worth including that side of the argument if it has some relevance to why you think Robbie Williams makes bad music. Do you genuinely think that he continues to make middle of the road music because his fans are musically unadventerous?

Shite sells.  Unadventurous shite (not too political nothing too clever) sells by the bucket-load.  The proof is all around us...what's the most popular type of loaf?  Plain white sliced.  What's the biggest-selling newspaper?  The Sun.  Who's our biggest pop star?  Cunt Williams.  What's the biggest-grossing movie?  Snakes On A Plane (I'd guess).  

Look at this post here, where someone who works in the comedy industry sums up the problems of trying to get ideas on the telly.  He boils it down to the fact that audience research (that lot again) shows that people want things they know (The Office, in this instance), rather than things that will excite and challenge them.  This then dictates what we all get fed.  I think that's perhaps why I get so annoyed at people tucking into a great big pile of shit with a big greasy smile on their faces.  The kids deserve better pop stars - there, I managed to avoid the word "real."

So that's a yes then.  If "Rudebox" does badly, Williams' management will have him straight back to fronting tedious lighter-in-the-air "anthems" for little girls.

Whirlybird

In reference to the Captain Beefheart stuff on the first couple of pages of this thread, this from David Thomas to a journalist:

Quote from: "David Thomas"It's simple why Captain Beefheart didn't sell as much as Michael Jackson. In a punk world only the surface is saleable. The public is not at fault. The media is at fault. It is, in fact, your fault personally. I'm not speaking metaphorically. If you knew what you were doing there would be no crime or cancer or bad music. Shape up.

I wish there were more like him, but all you get these days, really, is the Gallagher idiots making insincere digs at whoever's currently in vogue whenever they want to publicise a new release.

I would bet that even Robbie Williams doesn't think Robbie Williams music is good.  I'm sure he goes home and listens to Mayo Thompson or Le Stelle Di Mario Schifano or The Raincoats or something.

weirdbeard

Robbie Williams album discography:

Life Thru A Lens - 29 September 1997

I've Been Expecting You - 26 October 1998

Sing When You're Winning - 28 August 2000

Swing When You're Winning - 11 November 2001
(No. 1 in the 5 weeks leading up to Christmas - ending as Xmas No.1)

Escapology - 5 November 2002
(No. 1 in the 5 weeks leading up to Christmas - ending as Xmas No.1)

Live At Knebworth - 29 September 2003

Greatest Hits - 18 October 2004
(Never out of the top 5 from release until Christmas - ending as Xmas No.1)

Intensive Care - 24 October 2005
(Never out of the top 5 from release until Christmas - ending as Xmas No.2)

Rudebox 74 - 23 October 2006


Only one album not released in the last 3 months of the year.  All strategically timed so a single will be on the airwaves as people are doing their Christmas shopping.  I can't find the details online, but I'll wager that all of those albums have been in at least the top 5 at Christmas, I know 3 of those were number 1.  That's why he's been so successful - he's guaranteed a load of sales at Christmas alone.  Bland stocking filler.

EDITl  Got a bit more data there to prove my point.  Don't have any data for the first three, which is why they are empty.

sam and janet evening

well I believe (judging by his appearences on Ken Bruce's 'Tracks of my years' segment and his collaborators) he goes home and listens to The Lilac Time, The Pet Shop Boys and the Divine Comedy.

I never actually said if I liked Rudebox btw, and I shall continue to be elusive on this point (for oooh...another two posts perhaps) I just think it (and Trippin' which I do like) stands against this argument of 'oh he's just tedious MOR'. In fact Mr Whirlybird above makes the following statement:

QuoteIf "Rudebox" does badly, Williams' management will have him straight back to fronting tedious lighter-in-the-air "anthems" for little girls.

which implies (and apologies if I'm mis-reading you, Whirlybird) that he thinks 'Rudebox' is risky. and if we accept that Mr Williams takes 'Risks' then the argument becomes more of a 'I don't like him because...I don't like him' rather than a defense of artistic values in popular music.

Whirlybird

I was just responding to your statement that The Sun "savaged" Rudebox weeks before it even came out.  And I don't think that necessarily makes Rubox "risky", building them up and them knocking them down is bread and butter for newspapers.  I think weirdbeards post says an awful lot about how "risky" his music is.

sam and janet evening

Is that not standard practise with big pop stars though? Would it make his records any better if they were released in March?
Nah, scratch that I know that's not the point being made. Again, I don't much care for most of his output, but I do think it's more adventurous than it's given credit for. Do you not think 'Rudebox' sounds odd? I don't think this in itself makes it any good but that comes down to a subjective thing.

Also (and I direct this mostly to Whirlybird, but hey! You can all join in...) if we go back to older pop, and I'm going to pick Sandie Shaw as an example because she's a personal heroine, does that become equally hateful if it's 'safe' and 'unadventurous'? I adore Shaw's stuff for many reasons (arrangements, her tone of voice, some of the songs etc) but I can't point to much of it and say 'That was groundbreaking', much of it is definately MOR and especially so If you consider the climate of the time.
Now, admittedly she's not having any influence over modern culture and indeed I had to 'seek out' her work rather than being spoonfed it, but at the time it would have been the Robbie equivalent. So will Robbie become alright in, say, 20 years?

The Mumbler

Quote from: "weirdbeard"Robbie Williams album discography:

Life Thru A Lens - 29 September 1997

I've Been Expecting You - 26 October 1998

Sing When You're Winning - 28 August 2000

Live At Knebworth - 29 September 2003

Life Thru A Lens didn't reach number one until 18 April 1998.  I've Been Expecting You hit number one on 7 November 1998, but lost out at Christmas that year to George Michael's compilation Ladies & Gentlemen - The Best Of.  It returned to the top spot in January and February 1999.

Sing When You're Winning hit number one in its first week (9 September 2000), but at Christmas, The Beatles were way ahead at number one with the 1 compilation.

humanleech


Ciarán2

I've been thinking today about the nature od "discernment". How do we discern? I think Whirlybird's point is: people who like Robbie Williams don't or can't discern.

Now I'm loathe to get into this, because I honestly think it's meaningless, but for the record, I own 2,000+ LPs, 1,000+ singles. I listen to reggae, pop, rock, blues, country, folk, classical music, techno and house, musicals, metal...a huge array of things. But my absolute fave, my meat and drink if you like, is pop. And I do discern, there is pop I love, pop I like, pop I'm indifferent towards, pop I dislike and pop I hate. Robbie Williams, to be honest, belongs to each and every one of those categories - depending on the single in question. So yes, we do discern. We all, each in our own way, separate the wheat from the chaff. But you seem to be saying, whirlybird, that all of Robbie Williams' output is chaff, and MUST be so. I think that's madness. I can understand that you have a kind of blackhearted seething hatred for Robbie Williams which blinds you to some extent (as I have for Bono), but you're yet to convince me that I'm in some way "wrong" for liking what I undeniably fucking like!  

I'm especially interested in the mainstream, really. But maybe there is a politics behind all of this, if that's not too strong a term?

Borboski

Seriously, ALL of Robbie Williams ouput is FUCKING CHAFF

The reason is because every single one of his songs, has HIM in it.  He's such a cunt that if it were scientifically possible to reduce every song to a single message, each one would read "I'm Robbie Williams and I am a cunt."

Because music is subjective it will of course be impossible to persuade someone who does think there's some fun to be had in Williams.  The only thing we can really offer is that you should trust us for our taste, and our genuine belief that this music is only doing you harm.  It is doing the world harm - each time a Williams song is played the fat smarmy cunt gets a little ego boost.  Come, this must stop!

Ciarán2

Haha, actually who was it posted a brilliant tirade against Robbie Williams here once, wasn't it chand?

Trust ME for MY taste! I have both of Rachel Stevens' albums...erm...um... I like Captain Beefheart!

Borboski

"Ohhh a l'amouuuuuurrrrrr.....
Broke my heart... now I'm acheing for youuuuu!"

Borboski

Which is to say that in downloading music for the wedding there's something quite addictive about pure, sacharine, POP.  I can't get enough of that fucking erasure song, or for that matter Sherriff Fatman.

Whenever I'm going over the longlist, I find it trouble sleeping, it's like drinking pop or eating pizza hut pizza...

Ciarán2

That Erasure song is bloody brilliant, that's why. I've forgotten Dollar's version - haven't heard it in years. It's on Erasure's "Pop! The First 20 Hits" compilation though and is one of the best things on it.

Ooh, look! Erasure "Oh L'Amour" video

Borboski

I'm quite minding to suggest leaving off a first dance at our wedding, and I'll just do a little dance to Oh L'amour on my own.

JJJJH

I once heard it was possible to listen to, and enjoy, At the Drive-In and Ravel in one sitting. But I might have misheard.

EDIT: This is now out of context because I forgot this was sitting in the message window for about 2 hours.

chand

Quote from: "Ciarán"Haha, actually who was it posted a brilliant tirade against Robbie Williams here once, wasn't it chand?

Well, I pasted a rant about him that I'd written for another forum: http://chilled.cream.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=309119#309119

Mr Colossal

Regarding the steak and the burgers analogy, its perfectly comprehensible that one person maybe be able to palate both, guilt free. Its also perfectly acceptable that one person has realised that burgers are damaging to their health, and choose to cut them out of their diet altogether. And from the other side, that somebody may be living on a staple diet of greasy, unhealthy food, unaware of the damages whilst slowly eating themself into a greasy, fat-filled grave.

But is Robbie actually that damaging? while he may resemble the 'lesser option',  music's not exactly killing people, merely sedating their expectations of what is challenging, if you will.


Personally, I don't mind a bit of Robbie. I think i've said it before somewhere... I see him as a bit of a cock, but somebody that's not afraid to laugh at himself.  I can enjoy his music on a certain, complacent, not overly expectant level... If i took him seriously, I would find holes all over the shop. The fact of the matter is  I dont feel the need to,  it's something tuneful to hum while i'm in the shower...  I'm not expecting him to save the world,  he's not about that, in my opinion.   Whether he thinks he is, is another matter completely.

He's not the sharpest  tool in the shed... But he tries love him.


I think he's pretty harmless. So if  my ambivalence is keeping him in the public eye, I stand here  guilty as charged.

Whirlybird

Quote from: "Ciarán"I own 2,000+ LPs, 1,000+ singles. I listen to reggae, pop, rock, blues, country, folk, classical music, techno and house, musicals, metal...

Well, it's a start.

QuoteBut my absolute fave, my meat and drink if you like, is pop. And I do discern, there is pop I love, pop I like, pop I'm indifferent towards, pop I dislike and pop I hate. Robbie Williams, to be honest, belongs to each and every one of those categories - depending on the single in question. So yes, we do discern. We all, each in our own way, separate the wheat from the chaff. But you seem to be saying, whirlybird, that all of Robbie Williams' output is chaff, and MUST be so. I think that's madness. I can understand that you have a kind of blackhearted seething hatred for Robbie Williams which blinds you to some extent (as I have for Bono), but you're yet to convince me that I'm in some way "wrong" for liking what I undeniably fucking like!  

I just don't understand why a fan of music would waste their time on Mr Williams.  His singing voice is poor, his lyrics are beyond insipid.  It's a waste of your valuable time to even bother listening to his new songs, he's got a proven track record full of cack (records).  You could spend your time a lot more constructively, instead of listening to this tosh.  

Fuck the bad, the bland and the average.  Balls to the 'it's quite a nice song, as far as Robbie Williams goes' attitude.  Go and listen to something brilliant instead.

MissInformed

Quote from: "Whirlybird"I just don't understand why a fan of music would waste their time on Mr Williams.  His singing voice is poor, his lyrics are beyond insipid.  It's a waste of your valuable time to even bother listening to his new songs, he's got a proven track record full of cack (records).  You could spend your time a lot more constructively, instead of listening to this tosh.  

Fuck the bad, the bland and the average.  Balls to the 'it's quite a nice song, as far as Robbie Williams goes' attitude.  Go and listen to something brilliant instead.
It's not about Robbie Williams at all actually. Everyone is entitled to like whatever they choose. Hey, some people may even think Robbie Williams *is* brilliant and they are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours.

Personal taste is exactly that - personal. You can disapprove of someone else's musical choice but as for telling them they could spend their time more constructively? Fuck that attitude. There is no right and wrong where taste is concerned - each to their own.

JJJJH

Quote from: "Whirlybird"[Fuck the bad, the bland and the average.  Balls to the 'it's quite a nice song, as far as Robbie Williams goes' attitude.  Go and listen to something brilliant instead.
Give me an example of something objectively brilliant in your music collection if you can, Whirlybird.

Also, answer these questions please:

Is it a bad thing if the first record a child bought happened to be a Robbie Williams one that it enjoyed singing along to?

What if, instead of someone saying 'it's quite a nice song, as far as Robbie Williams goes', they say 'it's quite a nice song'?

Borboski

It's a terrible thing - is nothing sacred???  What's better, a Ferrari or a fart??!?

Ciarán2

BUMP

I thought this would be a good place to say something about "Rudebox" - the Robbie Williams album which has failed to set the nation on fire. It's become a bit of a joke at this stage. The likes of the Sun and the Mirror as well as the Guardian and Q have all dismissed it as a failure at this stage. Q said it sounded like he sounds "lost" and "directionless". Alexis Petridis of The Guardian quipped "At the baffling conclusion he says I've got a bucket of shit'' and you think Ýes, I've just spent the past hour examining it'".

So RW is a one of those figures people love to hate. At time he does appear to be a thundering twat of immense proportions. An egotistical sod, the main subject matter in his back catalogue is himself. As an entertainer he gets described as "end-of-the-pier" at best. A Butlins red-coat who got lucky. I understand those comparisons.

However, I will also say that "Rudebox" is a long way from being "a bucket of shit". Alright the single is poor to say the least. But who, even among the naysayers, have heard the whole album? Why would anybody who's made their mind up about Robbie Williams want to listen to the album right through? The reviews haven't been damning enough to afford it a schadenfreude by which RW haters can snigger up their sleeves. I wouldn't blame people avoiding the album to be honest. But if you should happen upon it, you might disappointed at how, well, good it is!

"Lovelight" is a perfectly admissable single, it's catchy and has a nice fizzing production form Mark Ronson. It's understated but dynamic enough. The cover of Manu Chao's "Bongo Bong" adds extra snare to the original and Lily Allen contributes lovely backing vocals. Besides which the song was great enough to start with that no-one can really ruin it. "She's Madonna" is a fine PSB collaboration. Not quite "Patience of A Saint" but not far off either. It's witty, memorable and lush. The worst thing you can say about this album is William's insistence on rubbish rapping isn't reined in enough. But even on a track like "Keep On", Lily Allen makes a welcome appearance. Later on "The Actor" and "Never Touch That Switch" are good electro-pop efforts. A few tracks pass forgettably enough of course. "Burslem Normals" is fairly non-descript. The cover of "Louise" doesn't add anything to the original, bar the sense that Williams likes the song and enjoyed singing it. The cover of "Kiss Me" camps it up mightily.

The very best tracks here, however, are "The 80's" and "The 90's". they will divide opinion into "God what a tosser this man is" and "Oh what a charmingly told story". I'm in the latter camp.  Both have bright, breexy tunes and memorable choruses and are delivered in a way which at least sounds sincere.  "The 80's" calls Estelle's superb "1980" to mind (although of course it's documenting a rather different experience of that decade). "The 90's" is Robbie Williams'statement about being in Take That. I think the crux of things is whether you give a shit about what Robbie Williams thinks about Take That in the first place isn't it? If you hate Robbie Williams, "Rudebox" is unlikely to change your mind. If you're like me and think the jury is out on whether he's a decent pop star or a bit of a berk, then you might find that "Rudebox" sways you towards him a bit. It's certainly not a write-off as an album, in fact it's better than any album i've heard by him to date.

To be a bit NME about it, I give it 7 out of 10.

variant

QuoteTo be a bit NME about it, I give it 7 out of 10.

Which I think is what the NME itself gave it, saying it was his best album to date.

The Plunger

I definitely agree that 'The 80s' and 'The 90s' are ace. Was there not some controversy prior to the album release, where Nigel Martin-Smith was demanding that 'The 90's' was removed from the album ? Or at least some of the lyrics ?

JJJJH

It's done the rounds a couple of times at work and it's not bad. Some good electronic moments in there. Liked the PSB touches, and got some Icehouse vibes from it too which I'm a sucker for.

Seems like a bit of a smug prat sometimes, but he doesn't really offend me like some. Just sorta sits in that grey "pffft" area for me.