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"Cop Killers should face the death penalty"

Started by defmem, November 22, 2005, 12:41:37 AM

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defmem

I heard Lord Steven's comments that anyone who kills a police officer should face the death penalty.

I was just wondering, since when is a police officer's life more important than that of anyone else?

Am i stupid for feeling very angry about Lord Steven's statement? Because that truly infuriated me.

However, looking at the people who text or email Anglia TVs "the pulse", I must be an idiot.

How do YOU feel about Steven's statement?

mayer

It's not that stupid, I don't agree with it, but the principle behind it is that Police Officers:

i) Are often killed at what is already a crime scene before they arrive, and thus are in the process of protecting life when they are killed.

ii) Are symbolic of the system of law and order, which, if police officers are killed, becomes undermined, resulting in lots more deaths.

Again, I don't disagree with it, but I think you've misunderstood the comment's basis.

defmem

I understand the points you've made, but at the end of the day, Police Officers have chosen their career, its not forced on them.

I just feel that one life cannot be deemed more worthy than another, no matter what the job title. If a police killer deserves the death sentence, then the killer of an innocent civilian who is killed during an armed robbery etc, deserves the death sentence.

LadyDay

Quote from: "defmem"I understand the points you've made, but at the end of the day, Police Officers have chosen their career, its not forced on them.

I just feel that one life cannot be deemed more worthy than another, no matter what the job title. If a police killer deserves the death sentence, then the killer of an innocent civilian who is killed during an armed robbery etc, deserves the death sentence.

The innocent civilian didn't put him or herself in that situation to protect the public though.

Having said that, capital punishment is wrong whatever.

defmem

no, the innocent civilian doesn't, but the police officer does it because he/she has chosen that as a a career. Does a choice of career make the crime of murder greater or lesser?

I don't personally think so.

mayer

It isn't about the crime being lesser or greater though, Punishment is for the benefit not only of "justice", but the utiltarian benefits to society, and, because of the law and order reason above it could be felt that the death penalty for cop-killers should be reinstated.

Again, I disagree.

quadraspazzed

QuoteThe innocent civilian didn't put him or herself in that situation to protect the public though

What about, I dunno, security guards (although they are generally protecting private property), or para-medics, or firefighters...

mayer

Paramedics and Firefighters are rarely attacked in the line of duty. Being killed by criminals is an occupational hazard for Police Officers in the way that it isn't for those two groups.

Firefighters killed doing their job are rarely murdered, paramedics killed doing their job are very unusual.

defmem

exactly. I just feel that if one group has one rule, then every other should as well

mayer

See above. And again, my point was about the greater "respect for the law" ramifications of Police-i-cide, and the notion that punishment in society is not purely about justice, but serves other roles.

defmem

sorry, started writing before your reply above mine. But you say "occupational hazard". And thats what it is. How many Police officers are actually killed by criminals? I'd say (from an admittedly uneducated guess) not many.

I know you don't necessarily agree with Lord Stevens, and i fully understand the fact that punishment in society is not purely about justice. But i think it should be.

phes

If it's an occupational hazard then it does suggest police need greater protection than the average person on the street.

defmem

But bringing in the death penalty for killing a police officer isn't protection.

You may argue its a "deterrent", but if someones gonna kill a police officer, they are going to kill a police officer.

phes

I wasn't suggesting anyone should face the death penalty, but I do agree with the principle in this case with regards to a greater deterrent against the undermining of law and order.

Hugo Rune

Quote from: "mayer"Paramedics and Firefighters are rarely attacked in the line of duty...
That's rubbish.

Paramedics and firefighters are attacked in the line of duty with mind-boggling regularity...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4406276.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4305668.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4304488.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/4716799.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4124186.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4413507.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4411546.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4403968.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/4333462.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/4220750.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4199844.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4574497.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4456117.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4389931.stm

...and so on and so forth.

Not to mention A&E staff.

Quote from: "mayer"...Being killed by criminals is an occupational hazard for Police Officers in the way that it isn't for those two groups.

Firefighters killed doing their job are rarely murdered, paramedics killed doing their job are very unusual.
It's different only in the sense that paramedics and firefighters are often attacked by the people they're trying to help, or by people with no connection to the incident they're called to attend.

If laws were changed to make the killing of police officers a more serious offence than the killing of Joe Public because of ramifications, then the same laws should apply to the killing of paramedics and firefighters too.

After all, if you stone a fire appliance en-route to a blaze in a block of flats then you not only risk the lives of the firefighters but the lives of the flats' occupants too. Obstructing anyone in the act of protecting the public has dire consequences for public safety.

The really stupid part of my brain is inclined to get the most het-up when I hear about paramedics and firefighters being attacked when they're trying to help people. A scrote is expected to avoid capture, so violence against a police officer - however repugnant - is expected.

But I ignore the stupid part of my brain.

mayer

A very very good point, very very well made!

The only thing that'd remain is the "respect for law and order" aspect of it, but Firefighters and Ambulance workers are clearly included in that along with the Police as public servants dealing with order.

So yes. Fair points!

phes

Try Psychiatric hospitals too.

Acute wards that are now overrun by aggressive, young males with drug problems/dual diagnosis.

Mr. Analytical

Quote from: "phes"I wasn't suggesting anyone should face the death penalty, but I do agree with the principle in this case with regards to a greater deterrent against the undermining of law and order.

 Yeah... except that as most countries with the death penalty can testify, it really doesn't have a deterrent effect at all.  The Death Penalty is barbarric and exists only in order to pander to the reptilian part of our brain that demands retribution for immoral acts.

 It has no social function and it is immoral because killing someone is always immoral, especially when they are in custody and therefore under control and easily prevented from doing any more harm.

 It's also up there with all police being armed, it's a very symbollic change in the government's relationship with its people.

 All of this is without factorring in the tendency to execute people who were actually innocent and you effectively have a set of cast iron counter-arguments for why the death penalty is always a bad idea.  It's an idea that stems not from reason or enlightened political and moral thought but from the adark and animalistic parts of the mind... the same parts that sanction torture and locking people up indefinitely without evidence  "just in case".  That part of the brain should not be involved in any part of the decision-making process by government.

LordSnooty

To say that tho police "chose their career, get used to it" etc etce is in my view a really dangerous attitude to take. Police recruitment is difficult as it is. I'm sure no-one would want to be at the stage where there are no policemen, because it's too unsafe. We have to provide the means to protect the police, and those other emergency workers. Of course because of miscarriages of justice & other reasons, the death penalty isn't an option. But neither can we say "tough luck, you chose the career". Could that be called the "Baader-Meinhof defence"? After all, these people are ultimately working to make the lives of level-headed people like yourself that little bit more trouble-free.

phes

Quote from: "Mr. Analytical"
Quote from: "phes"I wasn't suggesting anyone should face the death penalty......

Yeah... except that as most countries with the death penalty can testify, it really doesn't have a deterrent effect at all.  The Death Penalty is barbarric and exists only in order to pander to the reptilian part of our brain that demands retribution for immoral acts.It has no social function and it is immoral because killing someone is always immoral, especially when they are in custody and therefore under control and easily prevented from doing any more harm.

Thanks for that.

TJ

Not that anyone should take a call for the return of the death penalty seriously in any circumstances, but why should anyone take him seriously when the Police are never, ever, ever even slightly chastised for anything they do wrong? Not just shooting unarmed and innocent people but also failing to secure convictions for the murder of teenagers from ethnic minorities, hitting pedestrians using a zebra crossing under the correct cirumstances with a speeding van on the wrong side of the road and causing permanent brain damage, beating false 'confessions' out of suspects...

Lady Beaner

I don't agree with the death penalty thing, and my other half is a copper.  I would probably change my mind if God forbid, anything should happen to him.

I don't agree with the whole 'one rule for them and another for the rest'.  Sir Beaner believed that he knew what he was getting himself into when he signed up and he gets paid to take that risk unfortunately. Saying that, from some of the stuff that he has told me, they do need better protection. Quite how, or with what I don't know.

And I not sorry to add, but TJ you make it sound as if the police never secure convictions for 'murdered teenagers from ethnic minorities' or the like.  I am not here to cheerlead the Police, but it's a shame that we seemingly only have the media to rely on for our 'facts'.

Pinball

For once, the UK should respect the provisions of the Human Rights Act and not try weedling a death penalty out of it, on top of the other abuses the UK government already tries to justify <cough> Belmarsh <cough>.

I sympathise with the rozzers, but frankly if you gave 'em the opportunity they'd be happy to Judge Dredd it.

"I find you guilty" BANG!!

It wouyld be a slippery slope IMO anyway. Paedos should clearly by executed, and ugly people who don't pay their parking fines, well they're going down too.

Alberon

The Judge Dredd writers have almost always made it a point that he doesn't execute people after arresting them unless they're some extraordinairy sort of imminent threat to the city. Always thought they were making a point over not executing prisoners.

The death penalty as a deterrant clearly does not work at all, so the only reason for doing it is pure revenge. And I always feel killing someone in cold blood brings the state down to their level. Beyond the moral level is the fact that every legal system is going to make mistakes now and then. The idea that only cop-killers should be executed is clearly barking.

The only tricky question is when are we going to arm the police. I don't want it to happen, but gun crime will, I think, eventually reach a level when it will be necessary. But arming police officers will force the level of gun crime to rocket and may end up leading to the deaths of more police officers than at the current time.

TJ

Quote from: "Lady Beaner"And I not sorry to add, but TJ you make it sound as if the police never secure convictions for 'murdered teenagers from ethnic minorities' or the like.  I am not here to cheerlead the Police, but it's a shame that we seemingly only have the media to rely on for our 'facts'.

I was referring solely to famed (or rather infamous) incidents in which some of the Police involved had behaved shamefully and didn't recieve so much as a 'naughty lads - now don't do it again!' in return. I wasn't relying on the media for our 'facts', except for the hard and fast facts concerning the details of the cases I was specifically thinking of, and what happened as a result.