"Yes. Television has definitely got better."

[Clinton Morgan]

Just fuck off and die before I kick your thousand faces in you smug mutated morphing faced cunt(s).

"Am I bovvered."

Fucking Augh!

" In Waterstones we've got cook books, travel books, poetry anthologys and parodies of Harry Potter. Yes. Bookshops have definitely got better."

[Mr. Analytical]

Bookshops have definitely not gotten better, but the world of book-buying is considerably nicer and easier than it used to be. I'm pretty sure I couldn't survive without Amazon marketplace.

But I don't think TV used to be better.

[Boss Mew]

Who said this 'televison's got better'?

I'm sure Noel Edmonds in his House Party fame zenith was not nearly as shit as Jimmy Carr or Justin Lee Fuck-off-off-off-my-tv-now

Maybe it's nostalgia talking
Or the medication...

[Mr. Analytical]

Noel's House Party was absolute poison.  It was unrelentingly unfunny, stupid, predictable, shoddy and smug.  Edmonds wore these comedy jumpers and chortled to rubbish gags as celebrities turned up and pretended to fluff their lines.

It was utter poison.  It was the brain killer.

Edmonds was and still is a smug arrogant talentless cuntchild.  The only reason to not thing this is a desire to be purely contrarian and to think that seeing as he used to be universally loathed by the general public, he must have something going for him.

I'd actually say that he's quite a lot like Justin Lee Collins... only worse because he was paid millions to be on TV and had a control of saturday night for the best part of a decade.

Jimmy Carr and Justin Lee collins are shit but their output isn't nearly as poisonously low brow as Edmonds.

[Clinton Morgan]

I just don't like looking at modern digital television with rose tinted glasses.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Jimmy Carr and Justin Lee collins are shit but their output isn't nearly as poisonously low brow as Edmonds.

They're equally bad, but they're marketed as being better. In the same way that Marc Wootton is marketed as being better than Jeremy Beadle.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

I just don't like looking at modern digital television with rose tinted glasses.

I watch it with x-ray specs. I see a room full of people in a panic screamimg 'Create brands! Market things! Say the past wasn't as good as people claim! Lie, lie! Quickly, quickly!'

[Mr. Analytical]

If both Noel Edmonds and Jimmy Carr are cunts and just as bad as each other then I don't see how people protesting Jimmy Carr is better than Edmonds somehow makes him worse.

Bad TV takes many forms but it's all bad.

I think that despite the explosion in the amount of choice with Digital and all, you're no more likely to have anything worth watching on at any point in the day now than you were 15 years ago.  Great TV is still rare.

[Marty McFly]

the scene: a boardroom in TV land. the early 00s.

executive 1: right, lads. we've just had a memo from channel 4 for the new autumn line-up. they want us to provide 300 hours of quality programming.

executive 2: oh, don't worry, sir. we've got a lot of projects on the go. and with the amount of top-quality staff we've got writing and directing these shows, it'll cost us a fair  bit of money to pay their wages. but they'll do a cracking job for us, so we can surely afford it.

executive 3: how much money are we talking here?

executive 2: oh, not much. just a million pounds or so per series.

executive 3: well, what about the ideas we stole from the costcutter channel?

executive 4: oh, god. haven't we used enough of those "reality tv" ideas already?

executive 3: of course we haven't. all we need to do is keep making the same show over and over again, but in a slightly different location. iike.. the australian jungle. or outer space, which isn't actually outer space, but a huge mocked up set designed to look like it. or  a disused block of toilets in aldershot. or..

executive 1: thank  you. and how much is this going to cost us?

executive 3: oh, not much. i'm sure davina mccall and kate thornton will be available. and we've saved all those ace writers and directors all that time and effort it would have taken them to come up with some original and groundbreaking series into the bargain.

executive 1: excellent. well, that's our jobs done for the next year. get a memo fired off to channel 4. anyone fancy a pint?

boardroom: HOORAY!

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

Well TV (or pretty much any other form of art or entertainment) is going to be better in the past than it is now.  If you say that "now" is all TV from the last 5 years, then on the whole it's not going to be better than the output from the preceding 50-odd years, is it?

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Assuming 'TV's the same as it's ever been' doesn't take into account factual and objective changes that have happened to the industry over the past 20 years. The BBC, for example, can no longer fuck about and produce highbrow/obscure stuff without caring about the ratings - too many people (least of all the government) are waiting to pounce on that kind of thing and withdraw the licence fee. Which is why, whenever the BBC gets a whiff that something has a vague cult following, they hype the bollocks out of it until all the magic has gone. Or they create such an 'Everybody wants to be part of it' circus that it becomes impossible for the show to fail - Little Britain, Doctor Who, Bleak House.

People say 'Great TV's still out there, it's just that it's on BBC4 and MoreFour'. To which I say (a) no it isn't, because a lot of the stuff on those channels is pisspoor and just as plebby as the stuff available elsewhere, and (b) they don't have the money to produce the kind of shows BBC2 and C4 used to produce in the 80s and early 90s. So certain types of shows have completely disapperaed.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Well TV (or pretty much any other form of art or entertainment) is going to be better in the past than it is now.  If you say that "now" is all TV from the last 5 years, then on the whole it's not going to be better than the output from the preceding 50-odd years, is it?

No, it's demonstrably better if you take weekly samples too.

For example here's a week in November from 1982:

Saturday 6 November 1982

Old Grey Whistle Test (BBC2)
Another chance to see the previous night's edition - with Mark Ellen and David Hepworth

An Evening with Max Wall (C4)

Saturday Superstore (BBC1)
Guests included Squeeze and Barry Took

The Best of Saturday Night Live (ITV)

The Epic That Never Was (BBC2)
Documentary on the unmade 1937 version of I, Claudius featuring unseen rushes footage

Objects of Affection (BBC2)
Alan Bennett previews his new season of TV work

Carrott's Lib (BBC1)
Series 1, Show 6

The Life and Adventures of Nicholas Nickleby (C4)
The first part of the new David Edgar adaptation

Walter's Weekly (Radio 1)
John Walters interviewed William Burroughs.

 

Sunday 7 November 1982
Act 3 of Wagner's Ring Cycle (BBC2)
(Preceded by a documentary)

Omnibus: 'Brits on Broadway'(BBC1)
Featuring interviews with Richard Burton and David Hare

The Boys from the Blackstuff (BBC2)
The final episode thereof

David Jessel in conversation with Lord Denning (BBC2)

The Professionals (ITV)
The episode 'Foxhole on the Roof'

Sit Up and Listen (ITV)
Michael Hordern reads some Tennyson

 

Monday 8 November 1982
The Further Adventures of Lucky Jim (BBC2)
by Clement and La Frenais

Whatever You Want (C4)
Politics / music / comedy show with Keith Allen

Going Out (C4)
New Phil Redmond drama

The Eleventh Hour (C4)
First edition of a new slot for independent films

 

Tuesday 9 November 1982
The Young Ones (BBC2)
'Demolition'

Play for Today (BBC1)
'Intensive Care' by Alan Bennett

Arena (BBC2)
A profile on Joe Orton


 
Wednesday 10 November 1982
Profile of Gabriel Garcia Marquez (BBC2)

Profile of Parisian singer Marie-Paul Belle (BBC2)

QED (BBC1)
The Riddle of Sleep

The Barchester Chronicles (BBC2)

Visions (C4)
A series on cinema featuring an interview with Paul Schrader

The Morecambe and Wise Show (ITV)

 

Thursday 11 November 1982
Yes Minister (BBC2)
'Equal Opportunities' - the first episode of Series 3, with Eleanor Bron

Only Fools and Horses (BBC1)
'No Greater Love...'

Shelley (ITV)
'Brave New World'

City Lovers (C4)
A play by Nadine Gordimer

FILM: Sitting Ducks (C4)
Part of a World Cinema strand

 

Friday 12 November 1982
The Tube (C4)
Second ever edition

Pleasure Palaces (C4)
A documentary about cinema usherettes

Did You See...? (BBC2)
Discusses the Alan Bennett season

Our Winnie (BBC2)
By Alan Bennett

The Old Grey Whistle Test (BBC2)
A new edition.

So...would you rather watch that lot, or 2005's offerings?

[Evil Knevil]

certain types of shows have completely disappeared.

Name two types.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Name two types.

1. Single plays, especially ones written by and starring non-household names.

2. Unpredictable sketch shows which don't have regular characters/catchphrases.

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

Well TV (or pretty much any other form of art or entertainment) is going to be better in the past than it is now.  If you say that "now" is all TV from the last 5 years, then on the whole it's not going to be better than the output from the preceding 50-odd years, is it?

No, it's demonstrably better if you take weekly samples too.

For example here's a week in November from 1982:

<list of shows from 1982>


So...would you rather watch that lot, or 2005's offerings?

The problem with that type of argument is the same as we had in the "Extras" thread, where I listed 15-20 excellent, or very good comedies from the last 10 years, and you said you didn't care for about half of them.

The same is true of me, when looking at your selection, at least half of the shows you've listed wouldn't appeal at to me at all.  

Oh, and why would you choose "Saturday Superstore" over "Tiswas"?  Or was Tiswas not on that week?

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

I just like the fact that a kids' TV programme featured Barry Took and Squeeze.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Oh, and I think Tiswas had ended by that point.

Edit: Yes, ended in April.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

at least half of the shows you've listed wouldn't appeal at to me at all.  

Half? That's still leaves a heck of a lot you would enjoy.

I'd settle for the 2005 equivalent of just one of those shows.

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

Right, so this is where I say something like "What about David Attenborough's Life in the Undergrowth or Bodies", and then you say, "Yeah, they're ok, but not truly excellent like the shows I like."

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

What about non-subjective things, though, such as the two 'types of programmes that have disappeared' I mentioned above?

[gazzyk1ns]

Lalla what is your aim?

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

If both Noel Edmonds and Jimmy Carr are cunts and just as bad as each other then I don't see how people protesting Jimmy Carr is better than Edmonds somehow makes him worse.

No, I think the Jimmy Carr/Justin Lee Collins types are worse, thinking about it. Because they think they're better. At least with Noel Edmonds, nobody went around saying 'You have to admit he's very good at what he does' and 'You have to admit it's great TV'.

In the past, people said that rubbish stuff was rubbish. Now they try and justify it.

What's the difference between Game For A Laugh and I'm a Celebrity? The fact that otherwise intelligent people talk about the latter as 'event television'. GFAL was awful, but it was just a cheap and cheerful prank show and only spoken of in those terms. You didn't get cunts saying 'Ha ha, the trouble with reality television is that it sucks you in!' (Marcus Brigstocke on The Late Edition, 24/11/05).

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Lalla what is your aim?

What do you mean?

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

If both Noel Edmonds and Jimmy Carr are cunts and just as bad as each other then I don't see how people protesting Jimmy Carr is better than Edmonds somehow makes him worse.

No, I think the Jimmy Carr/Justin Lee Collins types are worse, thinking about it. Because they think they're better. At least with Noel Edmonds, nobody went around saying 'You have to admit he's very good at what he does' and 'You have to admit it's great TV'.

In the past, people said that rubbish stuff was rubbish. Now they try and justify it.

What's the difference between Game For A Laugh and I'm a Celebrity? The fact that otherwise intelligent people talk about the latter as 'event television'. GFAL was awful, but it was just a cheap and cheerful prank show and only spoken of in those terms. You didn't get cunts saying 'Ha ha, the trouble with reality television is that it sucks you in!' (Marcus Brigstocke on The Late Edition, 24/11/05).

So your problem is that things are over-analysed now, whereas in 1982 it was criticism was largely confined to a few weekly TV columns in the national newspapers and Points of View?  Maybe if the media that we have now existed back in 1982, they too would try to justify "rubbish" as being something more than it is?

I think there's the roughly the same ratio of great:average:shit there's always been, but with all of the extra channels. there's more of it, and you have to dig around a bit more to find what you like.

And whether you or I like it or not, things like "I'm a Celebrity" or "X Factor" are "event television".  How do I know this?  Because people at work don't stop fucking talking about them.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

I think there's the roughly the same ratio of great:average:shit there's always been, but with all of the extra channels. there's more of it, and you have to dig around a bit more to find what you like.  

But, as I said earlier, the 'good stuff' can only find a home on tiny digital channels, and those channels don't have the money, remit or clout to do the material justice. A season of brilliant one-off plays, for example, or a weird new sketch show? Only BBC2 and C4 would be able to do those things properly, but...they don't.

I often wonder why stating that 'TV's the same as it's ever been' is often seen as the default opinion which doesn't need justifying. It's something people can just say without expecting to be challenged. To me, it's just as insubstantial as saying 'Everything on TV is rubbish' (which I don't think is true either). I think things have generally and holistically got worse, and there are reasons why that's the case.

And whether you or I like it or not, things like "I'm a Celebrity" or "X Factor" are "event television".  How do I know this?  Because people at work don't stop fucking talking about them.  

People did that in 1978 too. I think what's changed is the assumption that there's something dishonest or 'elitist' about hating those shows. As if they're a guilty pleasure that everyone secretly likes. Charlie Brooker devotes his entire Guardian column to ironically celebrating I'm a Celebrity today, and that bugs me. The elevation of lowbrow TV and the dumbing down of highbrow TV, gradually forming one big middlebrow mulch that no longer entertains or surprises anyone.

[Darrell]

Sorry to add nothing but the text quoted below really needs repeating ad vertabim to all the sneering cunts in this thread:

The elevation of lowbrow TV and the dumbing down of highbrow TV, gradually forming one big middlebrow mulch that no longer entertains or surprises anyone.

It's the most concise, spot-on summing up of the whole situation I've ever read.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Lalla what is your aim?

What do you mean?

To save the world from fashion and mobile phone ring tones............and low brow telly..............and high brow telly...............and non-wobbly jelly.......................and pink blamange.. I think?

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

But, as I said earlier, the 'good stuff' can only find a home on tiny digital channels, and those channels don't have the money, remit or clout to do the material justice. A season of brilliant one-off plays, for example, or a weird new sketch show? Only BBC2 and C4 would be able to do those things properly, but...they don't.

Ok, to take your latter example, why is there a need for a "weird new sketch show"?  Isn't that what you're railing against?  Surely, there are too many of these, and what's actually needed are mainstream comedy shows that are actually funny?

I often wonder why stating that 'TV's the same as it's ever been' is often seen as the default opinion which doesn't need justifying. It's something people can just say without expecting to be challenged. To me, it's just as insubstantial as saying 'Everything on TV is rubbish' (which I don't think is true either). I think things have generally and holistically got worse, and there are reasons why that's the case.

Because there's simply no way of assessing it objectively. I could have gone through this week's TV guide and picked out 3 or 4 programmes per day that I would prefer to watch more or as much as those you've listed.  But what would be the point, your response would be "crap. crap. mediocre. merely ok. crap. etc.  

I think what's changed is the assumption that there's something dishonest or 'elitist' about hating those shows. As if they're a guilty pleasure that everyone secretly likes. Charlie Brooker devotes his entire Guardian column to ironically celebrating I'm a Celebrity today, and that bugs me. The elevation of lowbrow TV and the dumbing down of highbrow TV, gradually forming one big middlebrow mulch that no longer entertains or surprises anyone.

So what you're saying is you simply don't believe people when they say they like shows that you don't like.  That somehow they are lying or saying it for the purpose of irony, and not reporting their true opinion.  Do you think Charlie Brooker doesn't really like I'm a Celebrity?  And if he truly did like it, should he lie and say he doesn't?

If TV no longer surprises or entertains, it's more likely because people who grew up in the 70s/80s and maybe the 90s had been over-exposed to television, so it does actually take a lot more to surprise us, because we've seen it done before.   You can't regain your innocence once you've lost it.

[Suttonpubcrawl]

No, I think the Jimmy Carr/Justin Lee Collins types are worse, thinking about it. Because they think they're better. At least with Noel Edmonds, nobody went around saying 'You have to admit he's very good at what he does' and 'You have to admit it's great TV'.

That's exactly what people do say about him!

What's the difference between Game For A Laugh and I'm a Celebrity? The fact that otherwise intelligent people talk about the latter as 'event television'. GFAL was awful, but it was just a cheap and cheerful prank show and only spoken of in those terms. You didn't get cunts saying 'Ha ha, the trouble with reality television is that it sucks you in!' (Marcus Brigstocke on The Late Edition, 24/11/05).

I'm not sure that anyone really does view I'm a Celebrity as some sort of brilliant TV show. I would have thought that people, even those who like it, would readily admit that it's just a not particularly cheap but cheerful prank show. So what if Marcus Brigstocke says that? And anyway, that seems to me to be exactly what you're saying people thought about GFAL. That quote isn't saying it's good, in fact it seems to be implying quite the opposite: that despite not being good you still end up watching it anyway.

[Suttonpubcrawl]

all the sneering cunts in this thread:

Oh just fuck off. Crawl out of your own arse and fuck off.