"Yes. Television has definitely got better."

[Suttonpubcrawl]

You know, I despise I'm a Celebrity. I really, really fucking hate it. But the idea that because it exists and because people like it TV must be going downhill is truly ridiculous.

Darrell thinks that some sneering line from ELW10 about how the kids of today don't know what's good TV in the ripping, clicking, torrenting noughties is the ultimate summation of all that can be said on this topic. Well, I think this is the ultimate summation of all the debate that takes place on this topic:

Right, so this is where I say something like "What about David Attenborough's Life in the Undergrowth or Bodies", and then you say, "Yeah, they're ok, but not truly excellent like the shows I like."

Apparently TV has got worse, as proven by a few programmes picked from an edition of the Radio Times in 1982. Well on TV earlier tonight there was a documentary about relations between Britain and France, a short drama:

On a summer's night, at a public swimming pool minutes before closing time, two solitary souls cross one another's paths.

Hey, I thought things like that didn't exist anymore!,

There was also a film about people trafficking, and two programmes premiering new work by different composers. That was all on one channel! Now I didn't watch any of this so I don't know if it was any good, but it certainly sounds like it would have the potential to be as good and interesting as the stuff ELW10 mentioned. I didn't watch that either, so for all we know all those programmes could have been awful, trully dire shit that was totally unworth watching. I bet there will be arguments that these things are somehow not as good as the similar things in 1982 because they were on BBC4 or they weren't done by the right people or whatever, but really it seems to me that some kind of argument that TV has objectively got worse ultimately fails because you can't make objective arguments about something which is inherently subjective and the only non-subjective stuff doesn't to me seem to indicate any particular decline in quality.

[Dusty Gozongas]

There was also a film about people trafficking, and two programmes premiering new work by different composers. That was all on one channel! Now I didn't watch any of this so I don't know if it was any good, but it certainly sounds like it would have the potential to be as good and interesting as the stuff ELW10 mentioned. I didn't watch that either, so for all we know all those programmes could have been awful, trully dire shit that was totally unworth watching. I bet there will be arguments that these things are somehow not as good as the similar things in 1982 because they were on BBC4 or they weren't done by the right people or whatever, but really it seems to me that some kind of argument that TV has objectively got worse ultimately fails because you can't make objective arguments about something which is inherently subjective and the only non-subjective stuff doesn't to me seem to indicate any particular decline in quality.

It's the most concise, spot-on summing up of the whole situation I've ever read.

That fits better :-D

[Mr. Analytical]

Apparently TV has got worse, as proven by a few programmes picked from an edition of the Radio Times in 1982.

 Well quite... let's skirt round the issue of 3-2-1 being on for about 4 hours every saturday and Little and Large and Jimmy Cricket and the fact that film output was limited to James Bond every bank holiday and Star Wars every christmas.

 Similarly I don't think the fact that there are qualitatively fewer types of TV programme on is even remotely true... you didn't have reality TV in the 80's and you didn't have repetitive sketch shows and you didn't have those late night things where you can text message girls in their underwear and you didn't have intelligent cartoon comedy.  You might not like any of those things but then it's subjective and not objective.

 The single play things I won't miss.  Almost all of them have disappeared into obscurity and if the modern day equivalent (those plays of Radio 4) are anything to go by then we've really not lost anything by not having them on TV.

 I don't think TV's getting better but I don't think it's getting worse.

[trotsky assortment]

I don't think TV's getting better but I don't think it's getting worse.

I used to watch so much more telly in the 80s than I do now.  But, of course, back then, TV was our greatest source of entertainment.  I wasn't living in a houseful of DVDs and I didn't have this electronic link to half the world where I can come and talk bollocks on a daily basis.

I remember TV being so much better, but then, options were limited back then.  These days, I think I turn my telly on [as in actual TV channels] a couple of times a week.  ...And, yes, I'm still fucked off about the absence of Season 3 of 'Nip/Tuck' on Channel 4.

[Mr. Analytical]

I don't think that's a reflection on the quality of television, I think it's a reflection on the evolution of other forms of entertainment.

If you'd had DVDs, long term DVD rentals, unlimited cinema entrance deals and decent consoles and the internet and all of that stuff in the eighties then you'd have watched a good deal less TV too.

[chand]

No, I think the Jimmy Carr/Justin Lee Collins types are worse, thinking about it. Because they think they're better. At least with Noel Edmonds, nobody went around saying 'You have to admit he's very good at what he does' and 'You have to admit it's great TV'.

That's exactly what people do say about him!

That's what I was thinking too, I'm sure I've heard people say exactly that about Noel Edmonds. Chris Evans, as well. Justin Lee Collins might be the kind of cunt who makes an ironic show about reuniting the class of Grange Hill to appeal to twats who now like the 80s even though they hated it at the time (the kind of people who came in their pants to see 'The Wraith' on TV last night), but I don't know if he thinks he's some kind of genius. Noel Edmonds...well he does think he's great, doesn't he? Didn't he go on a rant not long ago that TV had pretty much gone shit because he wasn't on it anymore? To me, Edmonds and Justin Lee Collins are both shit, for the same reason. That they made TV I didn't like. Yeah, Collins might seem shitter because he comes with a weird layer of smug irony we seem to associate purely with the noughties, but, well, there was some irony in Mr Blobby wasn't there? Edmonds didn't actually think that was good, right?

[Go With The Flow]

2. Unpredictable sketch shows which don't have regular characters/catchphrases.

There was The Sketch Show.

EDIT: I thought it was funny...

[Ghost of Troubled Joe]

Hmm not this old argument again. No offence guys but hasn't this been done to death in other threads? It's pretty obvious that everyone's got strong views on this and are unlikely to have them changed. Maybe we should just agree to disagree?

[TJ]

all the sneering cunts in this thread:

Oh just fuck off. Crawl out of your own arse and fuck off.

Sorry, but there are plenty of 'sneering cunts' in this thread, and nobody was necessarily saying you were one of them as far as I can tell.

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

Hmm not this old argument again. No offence guys but hasn't this been done to death in other threads? It's pretty obvious that everyone's got strong views on this and are unlikely to have them changed. Maybe we should just agree to disagree?

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

all the sneering cunts in this thread:

Oh just fuck off. Crawl out of your own arse and fuck off.

Sorry, but there are plenty of 'sneering cunts' in this thread, and nobody was necessarily saying you were one of them as far as I can tell.

Plenty?  Care to name them?  I thought it was a rather reasonable discussion about whether television used to be better than it is now?  Some people think it did, others think it's about the same, and no-one (I think) is saying it's definitely better now.  Nothing overly controversial really, so is the accusation of being a "sneering cunt" entirely appropriate?

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Why is there a need for a "weird new sketch show"? Surely, there are too many of these.

Where? Which ones? The only sketch shows that get commissioned these days are either sodden with regular characters/catchphrases, or - in the case of things like The Sketch Show - filled with sketches of a certain type/style. There are no sketch shows with the 'anything can happen' factor.

In the past, 'anything can happen' sketch shows (Alexei Sayle's Stuff, Not the Nine O'Clock News) co-existed with the 'one type' stuff (Harry Enfield's Television Programme, Three of a Kind). Nowadays we only have the latter. I'm not going to bother watching any more episodes of Man Stroke Woman, for example , because I know - broadly speaking - what the remaining five shows are going to be like. I know they're not going to suddenly take me aback with something completely leftfield and 'What the fuck?'.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

Another thing that's got worse: arts coverage. Dreadful things like The Culture Show and Newsnight Review - rushed, news-led, patronising, bite-sized awfulness. And then you have shows like Imagine, which are supposed to be a cut above but are equally dull.

People called The Late Show and Arena 'pretentious' and 'annoying', but at least they were interesting. I could tune into them and have no idea what I was going to see.

[Suttonpubcrawl]

Sorry, but there are plenty of 'sneering cunts' in this thread, and nobody was necessarily saying you were one of them as far as I can tell.

It would be impossible for him to be accusing me of being one of them, because at the time he said that I hadn't yet posted to this thread. Here's a list of all the people who had posted to the thread at the time he said that, including people saying television is worse as well as those saying it isn't.

[*]Clinton Morgan
[*]Mr. Analytical
[*]Boss Mew
[*]Emergency Lalla Ward Ten
[*]Marty McFly
[*]Tokyo Sexwhale
[*]Evil Knevil
[*]gazzyk1ns[/list]

Who among those people posted something in this thread that made them a sneering cunt?

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

some sneering line from ELW10 about how the kids of today don't know what's good TV in the ripping, clicking, torrenting noughties

When did I say that? When did I mention or imply a 'kids today' stance? It's the adult commissioners I have a problem with - they seem to be the ones who don't credit people with having braincells.

Dumbing down highbrow TV: 'updating' literary adaptations soley to walk the charter/ratings tightrope, producing/promoting Bleak House as a soap, presenting arts coverage like local news reports, homogenising sketch shows, not letting experts talk properly or at length about anything, not commissioning drama unless it features a celeb or concerns itself with something that's been in the news recently.

Elevating lowbrow TV: refusing to condemn shit like Wife Swap and Big Brother for fear of sounding 'elitist', putting cookery/DIY shows on in primetime, broadcasting softcore porn and pretending it's a documentary about the darker side of human sexuality, the ubiquity of the phrases 'You have to admit it's great TV', 'They're very good at what they do' and 'That's the trouble, it sucks you in'.

Result: middlebrow mulch.

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

Why is there a need for a "weird new sketch show"? Surely, there are too many of these.

Where? Which ones? The only sketch shows that get commissioned these days are either sodden with regular characters/catchphrases, or - in the case of things like The Sketch Show - filled with sketches of a certain type/style. There are no sketch shows with the 'anything can happen' factor.

In the past, 'anything can happen' sketch shows (Alexei Sayle's Stuff, Not the Nine O'Clock News) co-existed with the 'one type' stuff (Harry Enfield's Television Programme, Three of a Kind). Nowadays we only have the latter. I'm not going to bother watching any more episodes of Man Stroke Woman, for example , because I know - broadly speaking - what the remaining five shows are going to be like. I know they're not going to suddenly take me aback with something completely leftfield and 'What the fuck?'.

And are these shows not being made because there isn't the talent around to pull it off, or the people who commission comedy are refusing to make them?  

And if such a show came about, wouldn't you just dismiss it as being poor in comparison to Python/Sayle/NTNOCN, anyway?

[The Mumbler]

Some time ago now, probably about two years ago when I first got Freeview, I did tend towards saying in a loud voice about how 'excellent' BBC Four was.  'It's the only thing I ever really watch', I used to say, while those around me fell asleep.  In fact, I said on a couple of occasions, 'It's old-school BBC2".

It isn't, of course.  It really isn't (if anything, it's Radio 3 that's the closest to old BBC2 these days).  Most of it *thinks* it is - "a place to think", for God's sake - but outside a few notable areas (archive stuff - the Arena season was the single greatest thing on TV this year, possibly so far this decade - music docs which have been generally excellent, some good Storyvilles), it is a sore disappointment.  It's the sort of channel that, when it broadcasts a documentary about, say, France, still plays accordion music from the grams library.  A lot of it is like watching schools programming except that, oddly, you don't really feel like you're learning anything.   The TimeShift strand could go either way - a lot of the time, I feel that they might as well have asked me for my opinion.  The idea of booking experts has (for the most part) disappeared.

BBC Four's the sort of channel that will invent a discussion programme with a broad brief, but then shoot themselves on two counts by a) only making it 30 minutes long, and b) getting Michael Portillo to star in it.  Or getting Mark Lawson to interview people.  Or that abominable Trial By TV decades thing that was on at Easter that imagined that we'd rather listen to twats react to programmes than the programmes themselves.  

You will have noticed that I haven't even talked about the other channels yet.  That's because they're barely worth discussing.  Arts TV is largely shot like local news, and is about as illuminating.  Most drama's content barely aims above Holby City, regardless of whether it's Heartbeat or Shakespeare Retold.  News is eminently resistible and personality-led.   Entertainment looks and sounds cheap, but costs the earth.

There are exceptions, as there bloody well should be.  Peep Show on Channel 4.  I really enjoyed The Thick Of It after not really giving two hoots for the first instalment.   There have been a few other diamonds amongst the shit.  And at this point, some dildo at a Sunday supplement will crow, "Ah, but you see it was like that in 1972.  And at least there weren't sitcoms called My Pakistani Mother-In-Law Shows Her Knickers At Jewish Poofs..."

I'm old enough to remember that this sort of hogwash is lying, deliberately forgetful and reductive shite.  Because most of what makes me want to turn on the set these days is "old telly".  The Larry Sanders Show is honestly the best thing on TV at the moment, on any channel.  And it's 13 years old.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

And are these shows not being made because there isn't the talent around to pull it off, or the people who commission comedy are refusing to make them?  

The latter - because those kinds of shows are harder to market, especially with all the increased competition out there.

And if such a show came about, wouldn't you just dismiss it as being poor in comparison to Python/Sayle/NTNOCN, anyway?  

If it was just a second-rate re-hash, yes. But that's not what I mean - I just mean shows done with the same bloodyminded spirit. In short, shows where you start watching and think 'I have no idea what kinds of things I'm going to see'. Which, even if you hate Python/Sayle/NTNOCN, you have to admit was something that those shows possessed.

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

You see, I find it hard to believe that if the "new Python" was out there somewhere, that one of the many channels or production companies wouldn't  seize on it with relish.  They may well be souless corporations on the whole, but are you really saying there isn't at least one person within them that has the vision and the power to support such a project?

[The Mumbler]

The real problem is nothing's allowed to start small anymore.  Or if it did, we'd be *told* that it was starting small.  (eg The Office, Little Britain)

[gazzyk1ns]

I posted that "What is your aim?" comment last night with a view to elaborating extensively this morning but I've not had the chance. I might do at some stage but it requires a lot of effort as it's a fairly basic but major point which... well you know the sort of thing, if not done properly then it's useless and sounds like every other post. But no problems, just explaining so nobody thought I was trying to make a cryptic little dig or anything.

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

The real problem is nothing's allowed to start small anymore.  Or if it did, we'd be *told* that it was starting small.  (eg The Office, Little Britain)

In respect of "The Office", I don't recall anything more than the usual trailers that any new sitcom would get, or would have gotten at the time.  The day after the first episode of series 1 was shown, I went into work the next day and asked at least three people if they'd seen it.  None of them had.

Maybe series 2 was "hyped" (I recall the LOG made some comment about it because their series was being overshadowed in terms of publicity), but perhaps it's because it was justified on the basis of the excellence of the first series.

As for Little Britain, wasn't that hyped because it was one of the launch programmes for BBC3?

Isn't this turning into "Comedy Chat" now?

[The Mumbler]

Trails for The Office began three weeks before the first ever episode.  The earliest one I saw was before a second series People Like Us.

[Emergency Lalla Ward Ten]

You see, I find it hard to believe that if the "new Python" was out there somewhere, that one of the many channels or production companies wouldn't  seize on it with relish.  They may well be souless corporations on the whole, but are you really saying there isn't at least one person within them that has the vision and the power to support such a project?

They'd try to smooth it out and pasteurise it, telling them 'This is the way successful comedy shows are done now' - eg, Geoff Posner telling Lucas and Walliams to get rid of the quickie visual gags between sketches because they're 'confusing'.

[The Mumbler]

No, I think the Jimmy Carr/Justin Lee Collins types are worse, thinking about it. Because they think they're better. At least with Noel Edmonds, nobody went around saying 'You have to admit he's very good at what he does' and 'You have to admit it's great TV'.

In fact: "Noel's House Party is the most important programme on BBC Television".  (Alan Yentob, incoming controller of BBC1, spring 1993 - just before it won a BAFTA).

[The Mumbler]

And whether you or I like it or not, things like "I'm a Celebrity" or "X Factor" are "event television".  How do I know this?  Because people at work don't stop fucking talking about them.

In fairness, this was the case with whatever was on TV in the past too.  A repeat of Abigail's Party got *19* milliion viewers on BBC1 in 1979.  Workplaces up and down the country would surely have been buzzing about that the following day.

[Ciarán2]

Very interesting discussion, I must say.

I'm inclined to agree with ELW10 and Mumbler, I think. I find that I'm uninterested in television for the kinds of reasons outlined above. The talking heads phenomenon, everyone on nostalgia tv shows seeming to have the same opinions, lack of in-depth, intelligent arts coverage. I think telly comedy is at a particularly low ebb. I was amazed when I finally saw this "Little Britain" for the first time a couple of weeks ago. It was fairly awful, really. I was in HMV just a few minutes ago and they had dolls of Vicky Pollard and that Welsh gay character. Singles mothers, homosexuals, fat people, black people, foreign people. All funny, apparently. I think that it is comments like "You have to admit it's briwiant!" and so on have helped create this awful era of ironic sexism, racism and homophobia telly finds itself in. So I don't turn the telly on much at all now.

BUT...how about kids telly? I'm always being pleasantly surprised by things my nieces and nephews watch. There's really great humour at work in things like even The Power Puff Girls. Or maybe I'm just a bit retarded. I could watch the Cartoon Network quite happily. There was a thing on the other day - it might have been Spongebob Squarepants - and there was this character having a nervous breakdown. It was brilliantly depicted. The character was wandering around the house in a night-gown with a stubbly face, and listlessly took a slice of toast from the toaster and started to nail it to the wall. I just thought it was great, I know it's done to keep the adults amused as the kids watch, and to get spotty students like me to talk about it, but neverthless, there was good imagination in it.

Oh another one is "Art Attack". "Art Attack" is brilliant.

[trotsky assortment]

In fact: "Noel's House Party is the most important programme on BBC Television".  (Alan Yentob, incoming controller of BBC1, spring 1993 - just before it won a BAFTA).

Personally speaking, I never thought there was a lot wrong with Noel's brand of Saturday night family entertainment - until it became obvious he was becoming overly reliant on the appearance of Mr Blobby.

A repeat of Abigail's Party got *19* milliion viewers on BBC1 in 1979.

I've still never seen it.  Is it worth tracking down?

[Go With The Flow]

Oh another one is "Art Attack". "Art Attack" is brilliant.

A chum of mine admitted that his mum used to go out with Neil Buchanan. There were soon lots of "Art Attack" puns, as you can imagine.

[Ciarán2]

Oh another one is "Art Attack". "Art Attack" is brilliant.

A chum of mine admitted that his mum used to go out with Neil Buchanan. There were soon lots of "Art Attack" puns, as you can imagine.

There was an interview with Neil Buchanan in the paper last week. He's about 74 years old or something. Anyway...