Roe v. Wade is overturned

[touchingcloth]

I don't think Roe v Wade went far enough. Why didn't it allow us to treat the foetuses like placenta and eat them, or at the very least give them to our dogs and chickens? It just went to show the absolute wastefulness of American culture.

[flotemysost]

Aside from the high-level political/moral chat for a moment - is there anything practical we can do in the short term to help the people imminently affected by this?

I'm on BPAS's mailing list and they sent a petition the other day for UK MPs to speak up about the US ruling, and I donate to Abortion Without Borders but they're Europe-based AFAIK (not to say there aren't plenty of European nations in urgent need of support in this area too, ofc). Just feeling pretty helpless and deflated about it, as I'm sure many of us are.

[Martin Van Buren Stan]

The only two prominent British politicians I know are hardcore anti abortion are Jacob Rees Mogg and George Galloway. Fuck them both.

[Zero Gravitas]

I'm shipping 2 litre bottles of gin to random addresses throughout the continental united states in the hope they can be used as barter with the back-street boys, and convince them to put on an emotive and politically-charged comeback show aimed at getting this bloody thing sorted.

...checks wikipedia...

Oh, okay not a comeback, but a show nonetheless.

[Ferris]

My understanding is that nobody really knows what to do right now, unless you are American and get a chance to vote for your state reps.

I think funding for abortion pills by mail is going to end up being the default way to combat this shit (so someone who needs the service will be able to go online and get pills mailed to them for free) but I don't even know where to start donating to support that, and it's still a poor substitute for a medical procedure. It's the developed world for fucks sake, take some pills you get in the mail and cross your fingers - what other medical procedure would be treated like that?

Alternative is to fund travel for people to a non-backwards state or Canada, but that's far more expensive and requires someone to have the time to go through all that in the first place. It's all very depressing and frustrating.

Sorry for the long and quasi-useless response. I'm unable to write about it without getting very angry at the callous, dismissive and spiteful elements of it all and going on a bit of a rant. Sorry.

[TrenterPercenter]

Aside from the high-level political/moral chat for a moment - is there anything practical we can do in the short term to help the people imminently affected by this?

Incredibly difficult but supporting charities is the way to go in the US a handy list here

List of US abortion charities

In the UK it is about winning arguments and not letting any soft creeping in of this stuff from the religious sector or well meaning but ultimately helpfully ignorant people in the press (just been listening to Shelagh Fogarty who guess what? was using Hitchens words as a "look he was even anti-religious" (an old and current anti-abortion approach) and giving audiences to religious people to spread their rubbish (some chap going on about the sanctity of motherhood and the great burden of pregnancy and how wonderful "all the mothers are", we should really praise them......whilst removing their reproductive rights).  Remain highly vigilant to that shit I would say, religious folk love to control with love (just with the love of their religion).

Also I'd say women, remember you are not alone in this there are lots of men that will not stand for this and again I'd appeal to men (not that there are many on here that aren't already with this), consider that this is the state telling your partner, your mother, your sister, your friend what they can do with their bodies - are you really willing to tolerate this?

[touchingcloth]

I will personally send vacuum aspirators to any woman who wants one.

[flotemysost]

Thank you @Ferris and @TrenterPercenter for your replies, and no need to apologise - completely agree it's incredibly difficult to speak/write about this stuff right now without coherent thought being stilted by sadness and rage.

Re: at-home medical abortions, I'm no expert but as I understand it, with the right medicine and taken correctly it generally is a safe and reliable option (and in many circumstances, preferable for the patient; i.e. being able to do the whole process at home, instead of having to travel - potentially some distance - to an in-person appointment and then running the risk of starting to miscarry on public transport, for instance).

I know at least one person who's used this method without problems, though this was in the UK and so was all above board. Obviously once it's unregulated, you DO run the risk of it becoming an unreliable and potentially unsafe option, as AFAIK was the case for ages with Irish people having to order abortion pills online from potentially dodgy sources (anyone who knows more about this specifically please feel free to correct me).

Likewise I'll continue keeping an eye on international human rights charities' social media accounts and other resources to see if there are any upcoming campaigns or other ways to support. Appreciate the solidarity from everyone here.

[touchingcloth]

Re: at-home medical abortions, I'm no expert but as I understand it, with the right medicine and taken correctly it generally is a safe and reliable option (and in many circumstances, preferable for the patient; i.e. being able to do the whole process at home, instead of having to travel - potentially some distance - to an in-person appointment and then running the risk of starting to miscarry on public transport, for instance).

Medical abortions are only practical up to a certain stage of pregnancy, and even then they're not 100% safe or 100% effective.

If a woman tries to abort at home but something goes wrong that requires hospital treatment to follow up, would she find a hospital that would be legally allowed to complete the procedure? Would her insurance cover those costs or those of any follow up care she needed?

Doing things at home is definitely an option, but sadly not nearly a complete replacement for dedicated clinics.

[flotemysost]

Medical abortions are only practical up to a certain stage of pregnancy, and even then they're not 100% safe or 100% effective.

If a woman tries to abort at home but something goes wrong that requires hospital treatment to follow up, would she find a hospital that would be legally allowed to complete the procedure? Would her insurance cover those costs or those of any follow up care she needed?

Doing things at home is definitely an option, but sadly not nearly a complete replacement for dedicated clinics.

Oh absolutely, hence the bit about it becoming risky once deregulated (as with anything).

[TrenterPercenter]

Doing things at home is definitely an option, but sadly not nearly a complete replacement for dedicated clinics.

Plus of course the psychological support that any humane society would hope to give. 

Sorry to make this about "me" again but I was enraged listening to Shelagh Fogarty earlier humouring some male caller saying people who have miscarriages get upset when people don't refer to their pregnancies as real babies so why are abortions not real people, "hmmmm you make a good point, you are obviously giving due diligence in your thoughts about this" said Shelagh......been through 5 miscarriages with my partner, it's a loss, sure it hurts but IT'S NOT THE FUCKING SAME IS IT FFS, it is the loss of the life you have mentally committed to, desired and pursued, mixing that up with a women's right to choose is perverse, if you didn't want the pregnancy then you wouldn't be in the same position as someone that wanted a baby and had a miscarriage because not all feelings about potential babies are the same otherwise why the fuck would people want abortions in the first place (that is what "choice" is about).  Of course Shelagh didn't apply the faintest bit of logic to this and allowed this prick to come across as reasonable (all he was saying was some people have miscarriages that want babies so people having abortions are selfish dressed up in mealy-mouthed cowardice - shame and guilt as always with these people).

The idea of using my grief as some excuse for this batshit anti-humane policy is repugnant (and I'm sure my partner would say the same).  This is what I mean about the killing you with love approach of religious people, so utterly smug and disgustingly underhand in their approaches to try and score god points for their heaven air miles.  They know their views are abysmal so like the alt-right and scientologists they've bought their suits, learnt how to be salesmen and dressed up their approaches all the while whispering their deceit away because they are doing it to save you.

[Blumf]

If a woman tries to abort at home but something goes wrong that requires hospital treatment to follow up, would she find a hospital that would be legally allowed to complete the procedure? Would her insurance cover those costs or those of any follow up care she needed?

Would probably find herself on the end of a murder charge too.

[Kankurette]

Aren't there some forced-birth types who even want to criminalise miscarriages? How does that even work? A miscarriage is an accident, not a medical procedure.

[SpiderChrist]

Aren't there some forced-birth types who even want to criminalise miscarriages? How does that even work? A miscarriage is an accident, not a medical procedure.

I think women have been prosecuted in Malta for having a miscarriage.

[SpiderChrist]

It's certainly illegal in all cases iirc

[steve98]

Ooh exciting. The Jan 6th Committee have scheduled a last-minute hearing for TOMORROW. The next hearings were meant to take place next month, so they must have found something pretty juicy (Or maybe someone's flipped) Get in there.

(Maybe that Mo Brooks creature has flipped?)

[All Surrogate]

One of the reasons Montréal, Toronto, Vancouver and (to a far smaller degree) Halifax were academic and creative cultural hubs in the '60s and '70s was due to the outflow of educated Americans who moved to Canada rather than be drafted for Vietnam.

It makes me wonder if the same phenomenon will happen again, while simultaneously feeling fucking awful for the poor people who don't have the resources or freedom to up sticks and leave such an oppressive country.

Well, I guess they wouldn't have to leave the USA, just head to the coasts.

Still, they shouldn't have to do even that. I'm struggling with how depressing this is. It's atrocious.

[Ferris]

Sorry yes that's what I meant, an exodus of people to less batshit regions of North America rather than Canada specifically.

[wrec]

Aren't there some forced-birth types who even want to criminalise miscarriages? How does that even work? A miscarriage is an accident, not a medical procedure.

I read something a while back about a woman being tried (and I think convicted?) after a miscarriage as she was a drug user. Forget which state, predictably not a middle class white lady.

[wrec]

Sorry yes that's what I meant, an exodus of people to less batshit regions of North America rather than Canada specifically.

This would be virtually impossible for the majority of people of course.

[Mister Six]

Medical abortions are only practical up to a certain stage of pregnancy, and even then they're not 100% safe or 100% effective.

If a woman tries to abort at home but something goes wrong that requires hospital treatment to follow up, would she find a hospital that would be legally allowed to complete the procedure? Would her insurance cover those costs or those of any follow up care she needed?

And will she be able to escape prosecution? Some of these states are prosecuting women who had miscarriages, FFS. Gas all these inhumane cunts.

EDIT: Ah, this was brought up, but I'll leave this post around.

[flotemysost]

Aren't there some forced-birth types who even want to criminalise miscarriages? How does that even work? A miscarriage is an accident, not a medical procedure.

El Salvador has had multiple cases of people being imprisoned after going through miscarriages, with jail sentences that pretty much ensure they won't be carrying any pregnancies to term once they're out.

[Kankurette]

Oh Christ. One of my aunties has had multiple miscarriages and an ectopic pregnancy to boot. If we had these scumbags here, my grandma would have lost three children instead of two, and my mum and other auntie would have lost their little sister. But who cares if the incubator dies, right?

Tori Amos had several miscarriages because of some kind of blood problem - she bled loads and her sister said something about having to give Tori heparin injections. It was through no fault of her own, she was actively trying for a child, and yet by forced-birther logic she's a murderer? I don't get it.

[bgmnts]

I don't get it.

Basically, the people who run most things are the closest thing to pure evil you can get.

[Blumf]

Channel 5 (All Gas No Brakes) at a Pro Choice Rally in Seattle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVzG1Va1wI4

[flotemysost]

Oh Christ. One of my aunties has had multiple miscarriages and an ectopic pregnancy to boot. If we had these scumbags here, my grandma would have lost three children instead of two, and my mum and other auntie would have lost their little sister. But who cares if the incubator dies, right?

Tori Amos had several miscarriages because of some kind of blood problem - she bled loads and her sister said something about having to give Tori heparin injections. It was through no fault of her own, she was actively trying for a child, and yet by forced-birther logic she's a murderer? I don't get it.

I *think* in the aforementioned cases where someone who miscarried was arrested, basically the person who miscarried was being accused of lying about it being a miscarriage, and actually having intentionally aborted it on the down low, rather than being arrested for miscarrying de jure - but yeah, obviously it's still an unimaginably barbaric ordeal to put someone through. I'm sorry to hear about those experiences in your family, and to anyone here affected by anything similar.

That's another thing that makes the whole myth of pretending pregnancy and birth is this wonderful, seamless, divine gift (which is a massive part of the anti-abortion lobby's cultural playbook) so so dangerous - it completely dismisses the fact that things don't always go to plan with wanted pregnancies, and the experiences and needs (both medical and emotional) of those affected get brushed under the carpet. If you see women primarily as a production line for bearing babies then you probably don't really care about the inconvenient details of the process, or the times it gets complicated, or doesn't work, as long as they deliver (literally).

[Pranet]

God. My MP- who I'd previous assumed was a terrible human being who was content to ride the gravy train, being a personal friend of Boris- has decided to have an opinion on something. And it is on this.

https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1541778555088011264

[bgmnts]

Okay let's do this:

Let's assume for a minute that life does indeed begin at conception. And let's assume that people do actually have an inherent right to anything. Right to clean water and food and security are pretty new things and a lot of people had to die for these rights. So they are far from inherent we are just lucky we have them.

So, let's say as soon as spermy meets eggy, that is an actual life. A sentient life that will be destroyed with an abortion. Would the bodily autonomy of the carrier of the life be more important than the life itself?

And if this is the case, that life of a human being supercedes everything. How can horrible CUNT tories like this justify anything in their sick bastard horrible shit lives? Literally every decision they've ever made that is designed to harm human life goes against this principle.

[flotemysost]

God. My MP- who I'd previous assumed was a terrible human being who was content to ride the gravy train, being a personal friend of Boris- has decided to have an opinion on something. And it is on this.

https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1541778555088011264

I wonder what other vital healthcare procedures he thinks are fair game for a jolly old political ding-dong. The controversial hot potato of heart bypasses? The edgy burning question of kidney transplants?

Ah wait, it's only when you don't see the people affected as actual sentient humans with rights that something becomes a wishy-washy "debate" rather than a real-life matter of fact need.

(Slight digression, but funny how it's almost always the same types who talk about "debating" the "trans issue" and "both sides of the argument". There is no argument, and not everyone has the luxury of discussing this stuff in the abstract. Get to absolute fuck.)

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Okay let's do this:

Let's assume for a minute that life does indeed begin at conception. And let's assume that people do actually have an inherent right to anything. Right to clean water and food and security are pretty new things and a lot of people had to die for these rights. So they are far from inherent we are just lucky we have them.

So, let's say as soon as spermy meets eggy, that is an actual life. A sentient life that will be destroyed with an abortion. Would the bodily autonomy of the carrier of the life be more important than the life itself?

The problem with actually taking the bait and arguing is that it assumes that individual women can't make big decisions for themselves, something needs to be proven to be a trivial choice at the state level first. The matter needs to be thoroughly settled institutionally and legally before its turned over to people whose pretty little heads might not be able to handle all the ins and outs. The proper answer is it doesn't matter if the fetus is technically a life or not, women have the right to choose.

In Catholic school I was told abortion was a "slippery slope" issue because if we justified it in terms of saving a life or if it was an unwanted pregnancy at the beginning of an amazing career, it opened the door for trivial abortions to go on holiday or because the baby had the wrong colour eyes.

This always struck me as fundamentally wrong because its easy to make hypotheticals where abortion is complex problem and where its a no-brainer. The issue is that right to choose should apply equally to both because women are capable of both complex ethical dilemmas and no-brainers. Both the liberal and radical arguments take the bait on this one and either try to argue that abortion is always trivial or always tricky ("safe, legal and rare") - I think these arguments are both (responses to) red herrings, holdovers from seeing women as objects of discussion rather than individuals. A very religious woman who truly believes her fetus has a soul has just as much right to abortion and healthcare as someone who makes bodily autonomy memes on instagram. The problem with the arguments liberal and 3rd wave feminists make, which centre the idea of the body as personal property, is that they're assuming their conservative opponents see women as autonomous human beings, when everything we've seen suggests either they either don't or they're comfortable using conceptual language from people who didn't. MP in the Mirror link won't be persuaded because he's clearly a believer that women are something less than human, at least when it comes to self-determination.

Think of all the cases where a potential/actual distinction matters in political matters which (until recent decades) primarily involved men and you instantly see the difference. Like, driving a car could potentially kill people but the actual convenience of cars is useful, so we trust men to learn to drive responsibly without tribunals about the ethics of cars. Yes, its good to value potential things and consider potential life as a form of life, but in almost every single case but abortion we recognise complexity and trust the brains of individuals to navigate it. It is beyond inane that there exists such a creature as the anti-abortion libertarian.