Morecambe and Wise or The Two Ronnies? Value judgments ahoy...

[difbrook]

Now, this is why I can't ever get involved in a debate and win.

I've just been involved in an office-wide argument over the relative merits of Morecambe and Wise and The Two Ronnies - someone idly asked the question, "who was the better double act?"

Everybody pitched in, and everybody except me said with cast-iron convicion, "The Two Ronnies".

I was absolutely stunned. Not because of any feelings of "no, you're wrong. You're all wrong", because I do love the Ronnies as well. It's just... the way my brain is wired, my personal pantheon of british comedy double acts has Morecambe and Wise at the very pinnacle - and everybody else ever somewhere below. Not because everyone else is in any way inferior, and I have no intention of putting Ronnie and Ronnie down.  I just believe that Eric and Ernie were absolutely the best at what they do and no-one else has ever come close to them. The warmth, the ease, the sheer professionalism... it makes me want to climb into the seventies and hug them both for all the pleasure they've given me since I was a nipper.

This view was something I've always taken for granted, so to find that I was in the minority on this one just left me gasping for air.

The whole thing began to take on a dispiriting quality, as my colleagues then embarked on a sustained spell of Ernie bashing - something I've never agreed with. Eric's an astonishing talent, and if you were to ask me who the funniest comedian Britain had ever produced was, I'd probably pick him - and its always seemed unfair to kick Ernie just because he isn't Eric. If you know what I mean.

And so, I tried to argue my reasons and lost control of any points I was making because I became terribly passionate and emotional, and completely failed to convince anyone of my point of view.

It completely blew me away - that in an office of 20 people, nineteen of them considered Ron and Ron to be Britain's finest comedy team... as the thought hadn't even crossed my radar. Still, nice to have ones preconceptions shook from time to time! I'll probably get used to this whole alien concept as the day wears on...

[Munday's Chylde]

Did Cook and Moore not get a mention?

[difbrook]

Did Cook and Moore not get a mention?

only by me, as a suggested alternative after the massed chorus....

[Jemble Fred]

I agree with you entirely, difbrook, and for the same reasons.

Plus I've been in the room when people knock M&W and it's a staggering experience. The first time was a ladyfriend of mine, when I was about 20 – never in my life had I considered the concept of anyone not loving Eric & Ernie, but this girl positively despised them, for no discernable reason.

Your workmates are twats to a man/woman.

[rudi]

M&W were timeless, too, whereas a lot of TTR output hasn't bourne the passage of time very well.

[23 Daves]

Now probably isn't the best of times to reveal that I have never quite "got" either Morecambe and Wise or the Two Ronnies.  I'm well aware that in the general scheme of things both were extraordinarily influential and important, having a bearing on the work of some of my favourite comedians, but whenever I sit down to watch them... nothing.  I don't know if it's down to the over-familiarity of their material or the style, but I just can't force a laugh out.

I feel as if I've just stepped into a confession booth now, but there you go... I wouldn't really have been able to join in your conversation at work at all.

[Jemble Fred]

While I can get my head round someone missing the charm of M&W (but only in a really infuriatingly patronising 'oh that must be awful for you' type way) – what's not to get about the Two Rons? M&W I think does require a love for the guys, and a knowledge of their in-jokes and so on, but The Two Ronnies is packed with perfect jokes, situations and characters written by the likes of David Renwick – if you can 'get' One Foot In The Grave', surely you can 'get' Renwick's material for TTR?

Just a bit confused, really... Not ranting!

[rudi]

If difbrook works anywhere similar to me, a knowledge of the subject is no bar to joining in vociforously any conversation at all...

[Bert Thung]

The greatness of M&W's lies in Eddie Braben deciding to make Ernie also funny in the late 1960's. All that pretentious playright stuff. Before then they were no more than a slightly above average double act, which they became again when they abandoned the Beeb and Braben to go back to ITV.

There was some Radio 2 documentary about double acts a few years ago where Mark Lamaar went "listen right" (always a bad sign) "people say Morecambe and Wise would be nothing without Ernie. Rubbish, Eric would have been just as funny on his own".  A load of ignorant bollocks, cause when Ernie was just the pure straightman, Eric wasn't as funny. Replace Eric with Eddie Braben, and I may have backed him up.

[difbrook]

The greatness of M&W's lies in Eddie Braben deciding to make Ernie also funny in the late 1960's. All that pretentious playright stuff. Before then they were no more than a slightly above average double act, which they became again when they abandoned the Beeb and Braben to go back to ITV.

hmmm. I'd have to gently prod at this assumption, as I've just watched an awful lot of sixties M&W (those ITC video compilations mainly) and yes, the shape of the act that I know and love isn't there, but there's a very good-natured and enjoyable feel to a lot of those sketches. Certainly Greens and Hill are nowhere near the writer Eddie Braben is, but they can knock out a decent gag or two, and with a core cast of four performers (M&W themselves, with Greens and Hill doing backup) - none of whom appear able to deliver two lines in a row without cracking up - they're definitely worth taking a squint at.

The Thames stuff... is tired, but Eddie Braben actually writes the lions share of it (he joined them from 1980 onwards). There's a "seen it all before" feel to many of the routines, true - and some appalling retoolings of old favourites (there's a rank remake of the Cleopatra sketch, with Susannah York and Ian Ogilvy, which fails to register any laugh at all with me). But again, there's much to treasure in there if you dig hard enough.

The "How to be hit in the face with a custard pie" sketch with Fulton Mackay and Nigel Havers for a start - and there's a superb one where Ralph Richardson keeps nicking all of Eric's catchphrases, to the delight of an onlooking Robert Hardy!

[Bert Thung]

There's stuff to enjoy in their ITV work, but would I put them in the all time greats based on it, probably not.

[23 Daves]

While I can get my head round someone missing the charm of M&W (but only in a really infuriatingly patronising 'oh that must be awful for you' type way) – what's not to get about the Two Rons? M&W I think does require a love for the guys, and a knowledge of their in-jokes and so on, but The Two Ronnies is packed with perfect jokes, situations and characters written by the likes of David Renwick – if you can 'get' One Foot In The Grave', surely you can 'get' Renwick's material for TTR?

Just a bit confused, really... Not ranting!

Erm... at the risk of offending just about everybody on the forum, I actually found a lot of Corbett and Barker's presentation style deeply irritating.  When they dressed as women in particular, I always had an overpowering urge to change channels which was normally obeyed.   There's a "knowingness" about their style of delivery that just grates with me - the smirks, the pauses before the punchlines, the chuckling, the "looks to camera".  I expect it made some viewers feel welcomed and included in their world, but it never did it for me.  Without that, it's quite possible that I could deal with the majority of the material, and I freely admit that I think Barker is wonderful in both "Porridge" and "Open all Hours" where he's not playing to the gallery so much (because they're sit-coms, duh).

I don't "get" them in the same way I don't quite "get" Led Zeppelin.  I'm aware that it's something I can't really fault for any other reason than preferences in style of delivery.  I don't like Robert Plant's OTT tonsil-ripping screaming or the bombastic production, either, though I'm aware that's a fairly pathetic reason to dismiss their entire back catalogue.

[difbrook]

There's stuff to enjoy in their ITV work, but would I put them in the all time greats based on it, probably not.

oh, absolutely not. Their reputation I'd say rests squarely on their seventies BBC work. The Thames stuff (although it shows glimmerings) really isn't anywhere near their best. Lots of nice ideas, but the act is definitely what it was.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

I don't "get" them in the same way I don't quite "get" Led Zeppelin.

Should you ever meet satan at the crossroads, and it's a one shot deal, choose 'getting' Zeppelin.

Back on track, would H. Corbett and Bramble count as a double act? I never hear them referred to as such, obviously it's a sitcom, but I'm not sure why this disqualifies them. Unless a sketch format is required for 'double act status'. Nor am I sure exactly how much 'additional material' M&W or TTR are creditted with, but it wasn't much, right? Or was it? And is at least some degree of writing considered obligatory for consideration as a 'double act' (too)?

[CaledonianGonzo]

Nor am I sure exactly how much 'additional material' M&W or TTR are creditted with, but it wasn't much, right?

Ronnie Barker wrote a shedload under the Gerald Wiley pseudonym:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4311356.stm

I like both M&W and TTR.  Can't choose between 'em, though I'd certainly say I've got happier childhood memories of Ron'n'Ron, due to my mum's loathing of Ernie Wise.

She is wrong.

[difbrook]

I don't "get" them in the same way I don't quite "get" Led Zeppelin.

Should you ever meet satan at the crossroads, and it's a one shot deal, choose 'getting' Zeppelin.

Back on track, would H. Corbett and Bramble count as a double act? I never hear them referred to as such, obviously it's a sitcom, but I'm not sure why this disqualifies them. Unless a sketch format is required for 'double act status'. Nor am I sure exactly how much 'additional material' M&W or TTR are creditted with, but it wasn't much, right? Or was it? And is at least some degree of writing considered obligatory for consideration as a 'double act' (too)?

Corbett and Bramble do indeed work superbly together. There's a lot more of 'em than you would initially think, aren't there? I mean, David Jason and Nicholas Lyndhurst spark off each other superbly, Wilson and Crosbie in "One Foot in the Grave", then there's Dermot Morgan and Ardal O'Hanlon...

And this is why I stuck the bit about "value judgments" into the heading - there's no such thing as "best", is there? I was just astonished at the way every single person in the room this morning didn't even have to think about their choice. In exactly the same way as I didn't even have to think about mine.

as for additional script contributions, I see someone's already mentioned "Gerald Wiley". Where M&W are concerned, their spiffing autobiography mentions that they tended to take the scripts and tweak them gently, just to make them fit their own performance styles. I imagine by the end of the BBC period Eddie Braben pretty much had them off pat so less tweaking was necessary.

There's a superb Omnibus documentary called "Fools Rush In", which goes behind the scenes of one of the M&W shows right from day one of rehearsal through to the final studio. It's fascinating, as you see Eddie Braben's original script pages being amended just *slightly* as Eric, Ernie and producer John Ammonds come up with ideas as they work through it - by the time they get to the final studio day you've seen a couple of dozen permutations of the same scene as they work furiously to get it right. 99 percent of it remains Brabens, but there's the odd line, even the odd word that just makes it flow perfectly. Anthony Sharp and Anita Harris are the guests on this particular show and you can see the awe in their faces as it all takes shape around them. And yet when you watch it, the whole thing seems spontaneous, as if they're thinking it up as they go along ("you didn't say that in rehearsal!")

Their warmup man on the night? Barrie Cryer, a man who has more than a touch of the Morecambes about him, now I come to think of it - and a man who wound up writing pastiche Braben during the first Thames season...

[thepuffpastryhangman]

(CaledonianGonzo) Thanks.
You could've mercifully quoted the "Or was it?"  bit too, so I didn't appear quite so clueless, well, equally clueless, but knowing it.

[the midnight watch baboon]

Rik 'n' Ade are betterer than both, but I prefer TTR.

[Autopsy Turvey]

I was just astonished at the way every single person in the room this morning didn't even have to think about their choice.

Well, for a start, the Ronnies weren't actually a double act, were they? They've said this themselves enough times - they were two men who performed in sketches together. There wasn't that 'cross-talk' relationship that defines a proper double act.

So these people at work, they obviously had the benefit of recently rewatching all the Sketchbooks, then there were the eulogies to Ronnie B which brought more clips and fond reminiscences into the mainstream public domain, plus the Two Ronnies ended recently enough for people in their late twenties and early thirties to remember it fondly as part of their childhoods.

But when was the last time anyone of them were actually exposed to Morecambe and Wise? Actual proper routines? It's a shame that the only M&W sketches that are ever seen or discussed these days are 1) the breakfast striptease, 2) the newsreaders dancing and 3) Singin' In The Rain. With maybe, if you're lucky, Eric menacing Andre Previn. Plus, you'd have to be about 40 to be able to remember watching them at their peak.

If they could all sit down to a proper, tight, scrupulously-assembled 6-part M&W 'best of' series, they'd at least have more information to work with.

Perhaps the greatest joke broadcast by the BBC in 1971:

ERN: We're a very artistic family you know. My auntie has a Whistler.
ERIC: Now there's a novelty. And I bet your uncle's never been late for work either.

[rudi]

Well, for a start, the Ronnies weren't actually a double act, were they? They've said this themselves enough times - they were two men who performed in sketches together. There wasn't that 'cross-talk' relationship that defines a proper double act.

That's a very good point.

[Brutus Beefcake]

I'm sure I've seen some M&W shows, were the repeated in the last ten years?

[difbrook]

I'm sure I've seen some M&W shows, were the repeated in the last ten years?

not quite within the last ten years, but there was an extensive retrospective in 1994, hosted by Ben Elton. "Bring Me Sunshine", it was called (of course) - three compilation episodes of forty minutes each, mixed with comments from colleagues and celebrity fans. The first one ends with a nice little bit from Fry and Laurie, shot on the set of ABOFL series 4 (I think). For the next few saturdays after that, there was a further series of half hour compilation episodes.

Full shows rarely get an outing, unfortunately. A couple of the ATV episodes were shown on BBC2 - episodes 1 and 2 from the 1962 run; and the full Glenda Jackson episode was shown uncut as a tribute on the day that Ernie died in 1999.

Edited to add: there was also a very tarted up BBC compilation show in 1999 called "The Sunshine Boys" - lots of themed segments linked by whizzy video effects. You know the sort of thing. That was shown on the same night as the Parkinson interview from '72 got another outing.

ITV pitched in the year before with the appallingly titled "Eric and Ernie Reload", a compilation of their Thames stuff which got shown again in 1999 with a new tribute from Des O'Connor bolted on at the front.

However, UK Gold did show an extensive run of full BBC shows in their very early days... culled from 1970-1972, I think. I'm still researching this one!

[Glebe]

You're guaranteed either M&W or Ronnies every Christmas Day!

[treasurecat]

However, UK Gold did show an extensive run of full BBC shows in their very early days... culled from 1970-1972, I think. I'm still researching this one!

They did, episodes from Seasons 8 to 13, if the seasons are numbered according to this guide:

http://www.tv.com/the-morecambe-and-wise-show/show/10734/episode_listings.html?season=13

I have lots of them on tapes, courtesy on my dad - a huge M&W fan - and I have to agree with him, M&W were the best (apart from Hancock and, I'd say, the Great Benny Hill - who is surely due for a revival in interest some day soon)

[Glebe]

[difbrook]

I don't suppose it even matters one whit, but since my post-first-and-realise-you've-made-a-mistake-when-its-too-late-to-edit policy has tripped me up *again*, I bow my head in shame at thinking Thames's 1998 tribute show was called "Morecambe and Wise Reload".

I've just watched it, and it was actually called "Morecambe and Wise Encore". Not much better, but not quite as appalling a title as I'd thought it was.

Absolutely brilliant sketch in there featuring Harold Wilson getting in more jokes at Eric's expense than I think anyone else has ever managed to do, as well.

"Ah, yes. You were born on Morecambe Pier, weren't you? Fell into the sea, and ended up washed up at Luton Town..."

[Pinball]

I reckon, as has already been raised, that M&W's lesser appeal vs. Two Ronnies is simply down to recent Ronnies media coverage. Personally, I couldn't easily choose between the two, though at a push would have to say M&W, because of Eric. Such a genuinely funny man. I remember when he died - so tragic and so premature.

I feel the best era of M&W was before my time, but I have seen loads of repeats. The 60s movies were relatively poor though, I reckon, but then compared to what? Catherine fucking Tate? Then they would hardly be considered poor. The quality level of contemporary comedy is truly abysmal..

[difbrook]

I just watched the 60's movies at the weekend. The Intelligence Men is rotten until about the hour mark (after which it becomes really rather watchable), That Riviera Touch stands up pretty well, and The Magnificent Two is a stinker, with one or two good scenes. Funnily enough, Eric's more or less the "hero" character in all three, with Ernie playing a much more conventional straight man than the Braden character that evolved shortly thereafter. He's virtually a romantic lead in That Riviera Touch - but in all three he's definitely the brains. He shines in the last twenty minutes of The Magnificent Two, where he's called to organise a resistance force.

Interestingly enough, I also watched a superb documentary called "The Unforgettable Eric Morecambe". Lo and behold, who should turn up, but Ronnie Corbett - making some very perceptive comments indeed. He's made me look at the Andre Previn sketch in a new light - he points out that Andre effectively takes the Ernie role, and Ernie generously steps to one side - giving Eric the chance to absolutely go for it. Ernie provides the framework and chips in with a couple of killer lines, but other wise he's very much in the background for much of it.

Here's a few screengrabs from various things that just make me feel warm and squibbly inside.

Ernie, not pleased at being interrupted  mid-monologue, because Eric spots there's a camera on him...



Gorgeous portrait of Eric... to the best of my knowledge the original of this can be seen at Luton Town F.C.



Eric, Ernie and Glenda in mid-flight. Probably my all time favourite M&W moment. It's the deadpan on the faces of all three as they break into a Wilson, Kepple and Betty impersonation.  "Be honest, come on..."

[Barney Sloane]

What do you think of Night Train to Murder, difbrook? Never been able to get past the first ten minutes, personally.

[difbrook]

What do you think of Night Train to Murder, difbrook? Never been able to get past the first ten minutes, personally.

aye, it's not good. Not helped by having my personal bete noire in there - Lysette Anthony (who I appear to be allergic to).

Eric actually asked ITV to show it in a children's tv slot, he hated it so much - and ITV agreed, apparently.

But - and it's a pretty big but - the ending is a total lump in the throat, and makes the rest of the damn thing worth persevering with - although neither knew it at the time, Eric and Ernie's final walk into the distance while singing an acapella "Little Sir Echo" marks their last screen appearance together - and it chokes me up.

Eric does pop up again, in a very odd, very wonderful little film called "The Passionate Pilgrim", which features him pitted against Tom Baker for the hand of Madeline Smith! And the whole thing's narrated by John Le Mesurier, so that's three of my favourite people in one 25 minute film. But I'm sure I've banged on about that on other threads....