This is England '90

[ian01604]

Oh that's interesting. I didn't know Harvey was going to have a slightly bigger part in the film. It was odd when he became part of the gang in 86 but I recently read that he was put in to replace Pukey because Jack O'Connell was busy. All of Harvey's bits in 86 were intended for Pukey, including his dad beating him up and whatnot.

Natural replacement for pukey with him being such a gobshite. They didn't really develop the harvey and his dad storyline did they. Just a quick clip of him being knocked about during a sad piano montage wasn't it?

[up_the_hampipe]

Natural replacement for pukey with him being such a gobshite. They didn't really develop the harvey and his dad storyline did they. Just a quick clip of him being knocked about during a sad piano montage wasn't it?

Yeah, it was brief. I think that was just meant to show how shit all their lives are behind the fun they have as a group. Maybe Meadows decided to go in a different direction with the character. Harvey ended up being Woody with a meaner side.

Pukey could have been a nice lad. He was the first in Combo's group to question the NF stuff and he ended up back on the good side with Woody.

[Spiral King]

I think Banjo and Meggy could have easily smoothed things over with Milky by lying and pretending that they tried to stop Combo. His recollection of events was probably not 100% all things considered, so that would probably be simple enough.

Of course, Banjo's absence in '90 suggest that Meadows eventually decided that Banjo hanging around these characters would probably be quite unrealistic. So, that sort of disproves this theory. Oh well.

It's interesting that there were other bits shot for the film that were unseen til the telly show. Like the first episode of '86 has Shaun and Combo sat in a car, following the attack on Milky, with Combo saying he'd let Shaun down and saying goodbye.

Then in this final episode, Combo pulling Milky along the floor and shouting at him to get up.

Unless I'm going mad, and they WERE in the film. Were they?

No, there were lots of different takes used, which I think added to the "this is a fuzzy recollection" feeling in the flashbacks. For example, when Combo first clocks Milky in the film, he calls him a "cunt" instead of in '90, where he uses a racial slur. I wonder how many takes they did on that scene.

[monkfromhavana]

Yeah, it was brief. I think that was just meant to show how shit all their lives are behind the fun they have as a group. Maybe Meadows decided to go in a different direction with the character. Harvey ended up being Woody with a meaner side.

Apologies if there was stuff I've missed because I haven't really watched TIE 86 or 88, but I don't really think that Harvey is mean at all. Perhaps a bit blunt, but certainly not a cunt.

[Hollow]

I don't think Harvey is a cunt either...and if he is...getting pasted by your Dad daily would tend to make you a bit angry.

I think some people on here have had a really easy life to be honest, and could do with a thing called 'empathy'.

[up_the_hampipe]

Apologies if there was stuff I've missed because I haven't really watched TIE 86 or 88, but I don't really think that Harvey is mean at all. Perhaps a bit blunt, but certainly not a cunt.

I didn't say he was a cunt, just that he's meaner than Woody. Maybe blunt is a better word for it. He's funny but can be harsher. For example, I wouldn't expect Woody to say something like "she'll fuck anyone but she won't fuck you" in an argument with Gadget.

[monkfromhavana]

I didn't say he was a cunt, just that he's meaner than Woody. Maybe blunt is a better word for it. He's funny but can be harsher. For example, I wouldn't expect Woody to say something like "she'll fuck anyone but she won't fuck you" in an argument with Gadget.

Yeah, I did kind of misquote you. Sorry.

[imitationleather]

I'd say Harvey's reaction to everything was a tad more realistic than what was on evidence from Woody in a lot of TIE '90. He spent the first couple of episodes just sarcastically mugging through everything going, "Oh! Eyyy, ooohh, eh? Ayyyy!" whenever someone said anything he wasn't happy with. It was fucking interminable to watch. The acting at the dinner scene did make up for it a bit, though.

I've had friends who've got interested in people who have been trouble or taking advantage of them a bit or something, and because you don't really know what to do it can end up making you a bit angry in the heat of the moment, like. So I kind of identified with Harvey, although I'm way too non-confrontational to react exactly like he did.

[up_the_hampipe]

I'd say Harvey's reaction to everything was a tad more realistic than what was on evidence from Woody in a lot of TIE '90. He spent the first couple of episodes just sarcastically mugging through everything going, "Oh! Eyyy, ooohh, eh? Ayyyy!" whenever someone said anything he wasn't happy with. It was fucking interminable to watch. The acting at the dinner scene did make up for it a bit, though.

Joe Gilgun is great. Naturally charismatic and funny and a brilliant actor when it gets serious.

[imitationleather]

Oh yeah, I've seen evidence of how great he can be from other things he's been in (not least the This is England film!), but I felt there really wasn't a lot for him to do in the first half of TIE '90, but way too much screen time spent on him despite that.

[up_the_hampipe]

Oh yeah, I've seen evidence of how great he can be from other things he's been in (not least the This is England film!), but I felt there really wasn't a lot for him to do in the first half of TIE '90, but way too much screen time spent on him despite that.

Maybe, but I thought his interpretation of Fool's Gold (wanky shank) and the phone conversation with his parents were pretty funny scenes. Nice bit of gentle comedy before all the shit kicked off.

[neardark]

Didn't much care for this - after the film, I think '86 was the only one with any idea of what it wanted to be.  With '88 at and this it felt like the ink had dried on the contracts before anyone had thought about what they were trying to say or do.

It's all been very well done, but '90 was half doing dick all and half trying to provide a resolution that the thing didn't need.  I'll defend Combo's death as it was portrayed as it really was done in the best and bleakest way - there is nothing more terrifying that what can go on in a room in a disused factory - but not where it came from, as Milky had a complete personality transplant at the end of the third episode for plot reasons.  It left it with a very pat 'ah, well violence begets violence, do you see?' kind of tone, which is the sort of easy bollocks I'd hoped it was above.

Other than that it ground its characters into dust and cliche.  Shaun and Lol come out of it reasonably intact I suppose, but everyone else is entirely pantomime.

Shane Meadows is a genius.  At something, probably, but not this sort of thing.

Pretty much word for word exactly how I felt about it all.

[BritishHobo]

Nah, you're all wrong. Harvey's a prick.

[Rev]

It's been years since I've seen the film, but wasn't Harvey's role pretty much as a generic school bully who was there to say why Shaun was looking for some kind of acceptance elsewhere?  I mainly remember the bit in the underpass where Woody takes the piss out of Harvey's name for being a bit poncey.

He is kind of understandable as a character as I do know people who I went to school/university with who were arseholes, grew up to be arseholes, but are still somehow on the edges of groups of friends I have.  As in, they're tolerated as part of the scenery but nobody would personally consider them a friend.  And he is a total prick, but out of unthinking self-interest rather than malice.

[BritishHobo]

I need to rewatch the film. I remember almost nothing about it, and Shaun seems to have grown so much.

He's undoubtedly good at spotting people's problems and not indulging them (Kelly getting pissed and making them wait an hour when she was supposed to meet them for the rave), but he's also definitely a belligerent prick about them.

The actress who plays Kelly is really lovely, isn't she?

[wooders1978]

Yes - massively fancied kelly in this one

[ian01604]

Of course, Banjo's absence in '90 suggest that Meadows eventually decided that Banjo hanging around these characters would probably be quite unrealistic. So, that sort of disproves this theory. Oh well.

well meadows split the gang in to young and old and Banjo was too old to go partying with the young ones and wouldnt really have fitted in with the cosy mum and dad stuff lol and woody were involved in, especially when the flashbacks to the original assault kicked in.

[MoonDust]

I've only seen episode 1 of this series. Without spoiling anything[nb]I've not read anything on this thread, and avoiding reading any posts whilst I'm posting this.[/nb], is it a happy ending? Can't be arsed with another grim-as-fuck and depressing TV series like '88 and '86, but at the same time I want to know how everything turns out for everyone.

So, is it a happy ending? I'll binge watch them this week if it is.

[undeliberated]

Spoiler alert: it ends on a piano montage.

Whoever made the Derek comparison upthread was right.

[Custard]

It's happy AND sad. Ahhhhhh!

I wouldn't say its a happy ending, as to be honest, it doesn't really feel like an ending. Life continues in that world (or continued), just we probably won't get to see any of it

Though several characters do end up in some kind of happy or positive place, when we leave them. Others clearly will continue to struggle on, in some areas

*Pseudo film critic voice* Much like real life, eh guys? *Pseudo film critic voice*

[monkfromhavana]

I'm sorry for the spoilers, but Combo ends up running a bouncy castle business.

[great_badir]

It is a dictionary definition of a bitter-sweet ending, although as Shameless Custard has said it doesn't really feel like an ending.

Despite claims of this being the end of the saga, it could very very easily be picked up again in another few years (someone has already mentioned about a '93).  I suppose if '90 gets enough plaudits (which it will judging by general reaction) and 4 offer him enough money, Meadows will probably dip back in at some point.  Not the first time it's happened with a TV show.

And, besides, Milky's rival bouncy castle business being a huge threat to Combo's brings up all sorts of other issues between them not necessarily relating to race, the irony being that Milky only allows "persons of colour and/or LGBTs" onto his, whilst Combo's is fully inclusive - plenty to build on in another series there.

[Quincey]

Felt a bit sorry for Smell's new boyfriend. As well as Shaun being really obnoxious, it did feel in episode 4 that Smell half-wanted to get back together with Shaun.

[rjd2]

I think Banjo and Meggy could have easily smoothed things over with Milky by lying and pretending that they tried to stop Combo. His recollection of events was probably not 100% all things considered, so that would probably be simple enough.

Of course, Banjo's absence in '90 suggest that Meadows eventually decided that Banjo hanging around these characters would probably be quite unrealistic. So, that sort of disproves this theory. Oh well.

Why would Banjo want to hang about Woody and the rest in 1986? He never knew them before Combo introduced him to them and after they split though. It just doesn't make sense why he would seek their friendship or why they and especially Milky would want anything to do with him whatsoever.

Harvey in the gang I could somewhat tolerate, but Banjo really did not need to be brought back.

[ian01604]

So, is it a happy ending? I'll binge watch them this week if it is.

There's a really touching scene at the end where everyone is dancing, meggy and sandhu pair up and do a jokey slow dance while bantering about the time meggy racially abused him and attempted to poo on the floor of his shop.

[BRen]

Of course, Banjo's absence in '90 suggest that Meadows eventually decided that Banjo hanging around these characters would probably be quite unrealistic. So, that sort of disproves this theory. Oh well.

Banjo is in '90, albeit very briefly, standing next to Trudy during the piano bit at the end:

[thugler]

Felt a bit sorry for Smell's new boyfriend. As well as Shaun being really obnoxious, it did feel in episode 4 that Smell half-wanted to get back together with Shaun.

I thought it was an intentional mirror image of the fight in the first episode, to hint that smell/shaun would end up together.

[non capisco]

I've only seen episode 1 of this series. Without spoiling anything[nb]I've not read anything on this thread, and avoiding reading any posts whilst I'm posting this.[/nb], is it a happy ending?

Combo gets delivered by Milky's family to some contract hitmen who, as is my understanding of it, tickle him to death.

[Spiral King]

Banjo is in '90, albeit very briefly, standing next to Trudy during the piano bit at the end:

Nice catch. I saw Meggy, but not Banjo. Meadows probably said "fuck it", assuming this was the last day of filming and invited the actor to take part in the scene. Surprised we didn't see Mick, Shaun's Dad, and Combo doing a Return of the Jedi at the very end.

Seriously though, the more that I think about it, there's a "the cast are all family" element that may be working to the story's detriment.

[Brundle-Fly]

Thoughts.

I took it as the skinheads who killed Combo weren't NF but Red Action; equating one set of violet political boneheads for another? That's how I remember the late eighties skinhead fallout.

Christ!!! I find this TV drama completely brilliant but utter bobbins in equal measures. Frustrating X 100.

Shane Meadows has this vision and has a great cast of actors but leaves the poor sods without a script, so most of the time they're scrambling around in this semi-skimmed Mike Leigh environment. However, Steve Brody is a god.

I'm crying my eyes out at those flash moments but cringing at the amateur sloppiness in between.

He's so fucking obvious too,  I was half expecting Shaun's new alice band girlfriend to say, " I just want to meet common people!"

Having said that, marvellous TV!