SEX

[mothman]

'sex is like supermarkets because'

I can never find what I'm looking for because they keep moving everything around to try and keep you interested.

And on special occasions you can go up the chocolate aisle.

[flotemysost]

'sex is like supermarkets because'

...it's a joyless chore that you just want to get over and done with, enduring the harsh lighting, avoiding eye contact where possible, and giving everything a thorough scrub with antibacterial soap once it's all over!

...you used to get asked how old you were at the end, but not so much these days!

...if you poke around in the shadowy recesses there's normally a few bits of sweetcorn and stray peas lurking there!

... by 2030 it will have disappeared in its current form and will only be accessible through Amazon Prime!

[Johnny Yesno]

'sex is like supermarkets because'

...you can get the basics in your neighbourhood but you have to go out of town if you want the full range.

...you have to feel sorry for farmers.

...you shouldn't go in when you're hungry.

[The Bumlord]

A good year and a half ago now, at a Premier Inn in Sevenoaks as I am a considerate and classy lover.

That'll do for the next decade I reckon.

[TrenterPercenter]

The guardian on sex

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/08/sex-declining-studies-week-in-patriarchy

In recent years there's been a significant normalisation of choking and strangling during sex. Pornography has played a big role in this, but women's magazines and popular culture (50 Shades of Grey, for example) have also helped to make rough sex "trendy". Hebernick and Fu told Scientific American that choking or strangling during sex "seems to be a majority behaviour for college-age students".

You what? so people are not having sex but the ones that are getting jiggy are strangling each other instead? <Stewart Lee voice> When did this come in?

While in many cases it's consensual and enjoyed, the researchers note that aggressive sex can also be intimidating. "We don't know to what extent that may be driving some people to opt out [of sex], but we do know that some people are feeling frightened," Fu noted. "They could consent to sex, but something like choking might happen without them being asked before."

Eh? Wait so one set of people are saying "I am having sex as long as I can strangle people" whilst others are saying "I am opting out of sex because I might get strangled".

That's hardly an unreasonable fear: in 2019 the campaign group We Can't Consent to This noted that, in the past decade, 30 women and girls have been killed in what was claimed to have been consensual violent sexual activity in the UK. "Rough sex gone wrong" has become a worryingly common cover for femicide.

An issue sure, but I'm not sure how this relates to people not having sex.

To be clear: there's nothing wrong with rough sex as long as it's truly consensual. What's problematic is when young people learn about sex through porn and think that violence is a normal part of intimacy.

Right but again that doesn't explain why people are not having sex.

It's easy to turn the porn industry, which is not exactly known for overly concerning itself with ethics, into a scapegoat for everything that's wrong with society. But if young people have unhealthy views of sex it can't simply be blamed on porn – it's also down to a lack of proper sex education.

Ah of course, sexy, sexy, sex education that will get the kids fucking again.

Between 2002 and 2014, the percentage of schools in the US requiring students to learn about sexuality fell from 67% to 48%. The US government also spent a staggering $2bn on abstinence-only programs between 1982 and 2017. If young people are learning about sex through porn don't just blame the porn industry: ask yourself why they're not getting better information elsewhere.

Here is the thing.  Tragedies and possible murders aside, I think it's more likely, rather than people only having sex to strangle people, or not having sex because they are worried about being strangled, it might be that they are watching the porn, and you know, wanking themselves off, which is then preferred from the perceived embarrassing and usually messy reality of having actual sex (I mean in terms of  hyper-normailisation or hyper-reality sense).

[shoulders]

UK sex education is insufficient and it is also taught in a very guarded way as to make it seem taboo, which is counter productive.

Porn on the other hand allows people to see a whole range of human bodies and while there is a truly upsetting quantity of abusive crap and the actual industry stuff is unrealistic and in some situations shocking there's also easy to access real stuff, people having fun, messing about, having regular, or at least real identifiable sex. Yes, you don't know the power dynamics and who is abusing who but you can pretty easily find normal men and women doing everyday casual sex that does pretty much represent what sex is actually like for most people. That's the side people who blame porn for everything refuse to acknowledge.

It is a good thing to be liberated about your own and other people's bodies, to not be afraid of body parts or their functions, and to see sex as being a legitimate recreational activity that's for anyone of any gender or leaning that can be enjoyed. That physical pleasure is a legitimate goal, that being turned on by other people isn't shameful or disgusting but normal. For fuck's sake, it's better than the millenia of shit we just had to go through.

[Midas]

young people! young people! young people!

[TrenterPercenter]

It is a good thing to be liberated about your own and other people's bodies, to not be afraid of body parts or their functions, and to see sex as being a legitimate recreational activity that's for anyone of any gender or leaning that can be enjoyed. That physical pleasure is a legitimate goal, that being turned on by other people isn't shameful or disgusting but normal. For fuck's sake, it's better than the millenia of shit we just had to go through.

I agree - it's mad that the article wants to focus on strangling and choking when isn't the current trend in porn for people to be getting boinked by their stepmothers or actors dressed up as cats or cartoon characters.

I'll wager people are not having sex because they don't need to, sex has been commercialised to fuck making it surreal and impersonal, whilst representations of intimacy can be obtained on demand in a discrete manner that is risk free from all the emotional, physical and logistical barriers (and consequences) of actual real sex.

[flotemysost]

You what? so people are not having sex but the ones that are getting jiggy are strangling each other instead? <Stewart Lee voice> When did this come in?

I mean that article is obviously meandering all over the shop, as per most Graun comment pieces, but tbf the old "causally place hands round partner's neck without any prior discussion" thing definitely does seem to have become just a standard part of proceedings in the last few years, going by my (admittedly not exhaustive) experiences.

(spoiler: tmi, potential trigger warning)

Spoiler alert

And I'm absolutely not closed off to that stuff, far from it, but ffs if a near stranger attempts to choke me without warning then you can bet I'll be firmly removing their hands from my neck until/if they're willing to set out some basic boundaries beforehand. I get that not everyone might feel able to do so, though, or even realise it's an option to say no to things once you've "started".

[close]

I mean BDSM is as old as the hills, but I don't think it's scaremongering to acknowledge there are certain trends that creep into mainstream behaviour which could be dangerous without the context of how to do it safely and consensually. And I can absolutely see how someone might be put off it altogether after a bad experience, though I dunno how far that's contributed to a general decline in activity. I suspect the practical and very real fear of being hurt/endangered, and avoiding, as you say, the "perceived embarrassing and usually messy reality of having actual sex" aren't mutually exclusive for lots of people.

I think that's a fair (if brief) point made in the article re: education too, not just in schools but from parents/carers as well. I'm guessing the point is about instilling a healthy sense of self-esteem and autonomy in young people before they might embark on the whole carry-on, so even if your formative introduction to the nitty gritty of it does end up coming from porn or schoolmates' anecdotes or, god forbid,  E. L. James, at least you've got a decent grounding in your inherent rights and worth as a human.

God I'm rambling more than a guardian writer.

[Midas]

these articles are always the same. i hate opinion pieces. charmin' and ingratiatin' themselves within the plaza of non-fiction. they should have their own section, in my opinion. non-non-fiction.

not sure what else to say.

my assumption - no, sorry, "hypothesis" - is that the writer seems to have written this having already decided that young people have unhealthy views on sex because of porn. probably would have been marginally more worthwhile if the writer buggered off and they just had some young people discuss this point tbh.

i'm a young(ish) person and i've never strangle-shagged anyone but when I was a teenager i successfully wanked myself off using a comic relief red nose. wasn't porn that taught me that. there's something wretched within us all.

[TrenterPercenter]

I mean that article is obviously meandering all over the shop, as per most Graun comment pieces, but tbf the old "causally place hands round partner's neck without any prior discussion" thing definitely does seem to have become just a standard part of proceedings in the last few years, going by my (admittedly not exhaustive) experiences.

I'm more pointing out that this doesn't make sense in the article; if you are strangling, getting strangled whilst fucking, you are having sex.  The article suggests this related to/evidence for the decline in people having sex when really it would suggest the people that are having sex are strangling act other (spoiler: this isn't what the study says either).

As you always must do with the Guardian if you go to source it doesn't say any of this it says;

Especially for those 18 to 29 years old, there have been increases in what many people call rough sex behaviors. Limited research suggests that an earlier idea of this was what I would consider fairly vanilla rough sex: pulling hair, a little light spanking. What we see now in studies of thousands of randomly sampled college students is choking or strangling during sex. The behavior seems to be a majority behavior for college-age students. For many people, it's consensual and wanted and asked for, but it's also scary to many people, even if they learn to enjoy it or want it.

This isn't a topic that comes up as a suggestion for a decline in sex rates, there are other ones though that the study suggests.

What might explain declines among young people?

FU: We need more studies to tell us why. But for young people, computer games, increasing social media use, video games—something is replacing that time.

It's the actual interviewer for Scientific American that brings up the finding around rough sex in the study, and the Guardian just ignores everything else completely.

Also going back to the rough sex bit here is another thing that the Guardian omits

FU: We have seen what seem to be real shifts in those behaviors. We don't know to what extent that may be driving some people to opt out, but we do know that some people are feeling frightened and don't know what to make of what's being presented to them, especially young adults. They could consent to sex, but something like choking might happen without them being asked before. We see a lot of gender effects in a lot of behaviors for different nonheterosexual identities. For example, bisexual women experience a lot more of these aggressive behaviors.

So really the study says college aged-people report an increase in rough-sex they don't know whether this is related to reductions in sexual activity and it also seems related to nonhetersexual identities.  This is somewhat different from the picture the Guardian paints.

I suspect the practical and very real fear of being hurt/endangered, and avoiding, as you say, the "perceived embarrassing and usually messy reality of having actual sex" aren't mutually exclusive for lots of people......I'm guessing the point is about instilling a healthy sense of self-esteem and autonomy in young people before they might embark on the whole carry-on

Sure, I'm not really arguing about this consent and safety are of course important issues. I would ask do we seriously think the Guardians take and presentation of this study promotes a healthy mindset around sex? Does telling young people that they might die from sex play gone wrong create this (and causally forgetting to mention they are at a higher risk if gay or bisexual?).  Instilling a sense of self-esteem seems to be being mixed up with a women's right to say no, I'm not suggesting that isn't important it is massively (as is a man's #NAM) but that is more about ending sex rather than having enjoyable and healthy views on sex.


Now the really interesting finding from the study is the the decline in adolescent masturbation - which possibly goes against my wanking instead of shagging hypothesis (though I suspect there are some other things going on here in reporting and how they are measuring masturbation).

[flotemysost]

Instilling a sense of self-esteem seems to be being mixed up with a women's right to say no, I'm not suggesting that isn't important it is massively (as is a man's #NAM) but that is more about ending sex rather than having enjoyable and healthy views on sex.

I'm going to disagree there - having the autonomy and confidence to say no (for anyone, not just women, as you rightly say) absolutely isn't about "ending sex", it's a hugely important part of "having enjoyable and healthy views on sex". It doesn't mean saying no to having it ever (unless that's what the person wants, of course - which is fine), it's about feeling able to communicate if/when you don't feel comfortable going ahead with something, or you want to call a stop to something at any point (not just physical penetrative sex but any part of it, including verbal/text communication). But agree the article doesn't make that distinction very clear.

It's definitely true, as you say, that bisexual women in particular often get treated as disposable novelties without feelings or rights - particularly by heterosexual couples who want to "experiment" or "spice things up" with a threesome. Tbh anyone identifying as LGBTQ+ is statistically more vulnerable to abuse, sadly.

But yeah, it is a bit of a pointless article. After a rather sensational headline it skirts around making some important and interesting points but doesn't really offer any clear suggestions.

[TrenterPercenter]

I'm going to disagree there - having the autonomy and confidence to say no (for anyone, not just women, as you rightly say) absolutely isn't about "ending sex", it's a hugely important part of "having enjoyable and healthy views on sex". It doesn't mean saying no to having it ever (unless that's what the person wants, of course - which is fine), it's about feeling able to communicate if/when you don't feel comfortable going ahead with something, or you want to call a stop to something at any point (not just physical penetrative sex but any part of it, including verbal/text communication). But agree the article doesn't make that distinction very clear.

Sorry I'm a bit lost here flotemysost; I'm not saying ending sex all together??? I'm saying exactly what you are talking about regarding autonomy and confidence to end a sexual encounter.  Teaching someone that it is OK to say no, really should be taken as a given but sadly that isn't how the world works and people are pressurised both directly, indirectly by partners, peers (especially for young people) and society; it is however a way of "ending" a sexual encounter and not about the sex itself (or at a push not the other 99% of sex).  I'm talking about the need to be positive about sex and not just deliver sex education that is about safe guarding.  We scarcely talk about pleasure or why sex can be good rather just the dangers of it; you can get this disease or pregnant or someone could abuse you - I'm in no way saying there isn't a place for this or that knowing how to keep yourself safe isn't important to actually enjoying sex but it is different from the positive aspects of sex and relationships.

It's definitely true, as you say, that bisexual women in particular often get treated as disposable novelties without feelings or rights - particularly by heterosexual couples who want to "experiment" or "spice things up" with a threesome. Tbh anyone identifying as LGBTQ+ is statistically more vulnerable to abuse, sadly.

I didn't say this; it's what the study referred to in the Guardian it said

We see a lot of gender effects in a lot of behaviors for different nonheterosexual identities. For example, bisexual women experience a lot more of these aggressive behaviors.

It's a bit of jump then to bring in heterosexual couples? it doesn't make any mention of this - perhaps you know something I don't though - either way not something I was saying as I didn't even know that was a big thing.

But yeah, it is a bit of a pointless article. After a rather sensational headline it skirts around making some important and interesting points but doesn't really offer any clear suggestions.

I'd say it is an article about something else that would have been better suited in taking the issue about rough sex head on rather than misrepresenting the study about declining rates of sex.  failing to talk about the studies actual findings reeks of subjective bias which would have been ok if the author had just been upfront about what she wanted to talk about.

fwiw I read the Billie Ellish interview piece (which was much better than this article), it was interesting as Ellish was saying she was a consumer of porn herself which lead her to believe she should participate in things she didn't want to.  There was then counter article by several sex workers who were annoyed at Ellish's assertion that because of her reaction to porn and dislike of practicing what she viewed, that sex workers felt the same and were victims themselves like her.  They pointed out that porn and sex work isn't real life it's a job and a performance which has very little to do with what was going on with Ellish as she was in a situation of doing things she didn't want to.  I find myself kindof agreeing with both sides; porn has as impact on society but consensual sex is the business of no-one but the people involved in it.  I think a big problem with porn is that people think it is real (both men and women but in different ways); or rather they think elements of it are real.

[Crenners]

This chat is makin me horny

[greenman]

I think a big problem with porn is that people think it is real (both men and women but in different ways); or rather they think elements of it are real.

I do wonder whether the media reaction isnt part of that though? there has always been a tendency of view fetishism as inherently abusive which arguably becomes a self for-filling prophecy, people come to believe that if they desire say being submissive during sex then really that should naturally go hand in hand with putting up with abuse or even secretly desiring it.

[TrenterPercenter]

I do wonder whether the media reaction isnt part of that though? there has always been a tendency of view fetishism as inherently abusive which arguably becomes a self for-filling prophecy, people come to believe that if they desire say being submissive during sex then really that should naturally go hand in hand with putting up with abuse or even secretly desiring it.

Yes I also agree with this, it's related to what in was saying regarding the often focus on the perils of sex over everything else.  Most people in the world are having consensual sex that they enjoy because it's fun.  Sex is, quite ironically, absolutely fetishised itself from it's other worldly idealistically deranged romanticism to it's dark dungeon death in clingfilm paranoid delusions. As usual the extremes get the headlines because the reality is arsed cigs.

[chveik]

these articles are always the same. i hate opinion pieces. charmin' and ingratiatin' themselves within the plaza of non-fiction. they should have their own section, in my opinion. non-non-fiction.

this.

[bgmnts]

Do people still spit on genitals now or was that a passing fad?

[Johnny Yesno]

As usual the extremes get the headlines because the reality is arsed cigs.

Are these arsed cigs lit or not? Asking for a friend.

[TrenterPercenter]

Are these arsed cigs lit or not? Asking for a friend.

You'll need to sign up to my OF for further information I'm afraid.

[TrenterPercenter]

Seriously though that study finding declining rates of masturbation in adolescence is very interesting - this would be quite a change from previous generations in which positive attitudes to wanking, especially women has been a goal.  There has been an explosion of accessible porn for this generation and  there is now a healthy market for performers/content creators to operate independently.  So it seems counter intuitive if true (like I say I would really like to see the wanking stats before I completely take the finding at face value - might try and track down the data later today if I find time).

This being said I used to go to uni with a Portuguese woman who used to tell me how she would watch/read porn whilst having her breakfast (also after this conversation she bought me some porn from her latest trip to Portugal which she handed me at the end of a lecture in front of everyone like it was a copy of OK magazine - not a single fuck given) which always made me think how are you managing to do the wanking bit? Which I suppose was my naivety around how people might consume porn just like any other media.

[shoulders]

Seriously though that study finding declining rates of masturbation in adolescence is very interesting

Would be even more interesting if it causes so much panic among older generations that plants are sent across various media encouraging young people to 'tug like christing cunting fuck'.

[Huxleys Babkins]

I  wonder if the laser-focus on certain genres/fetishes for the tube, fan and chat sites, as well as a YouTubesque homogenisation around presentation, in order to maximise revenue, has had the effect of turning off the casual viewer in favour of a smaller, higher spending audience. Much like how mobile phone game makers don't give a fuck about whether a game's any good, just whether it's able to provide enough dopamine hits to keep the tiny number of whales who buy stuff and watch ads engaged.

[PlanktonSideburns]

Love that the sex thread is just talking about porn

[flotemysost]

Sorry I'm a bit lost here flotemysost; I'm not saying ending sex all together??? I'm saying exactly what you are talking about regarding autonomy and confidence to end a sexual encounter.  Teaching someone that it is OK to say no, really should be taken as a given but sadly that isn't how the world works and people are pressurised both directly, indirectly by partners, peers (especially for young people) and society; it is however a way of "ending" a sexual encounter and not about the sex itself (or at a push not the other 99% of sex).  I'm talking about the need to be positive about sex and not just deliver sex education that is about safe guarding.  We scarcely talk about pleasure or why sex can be good rather just the dangers of it; you can get this disease or pregnant or someone could abuse you - I'm in no way saying there isn't a place for this or that knowing how to keep yourself safe isn't important to actually enjoying sex but it is different from the positive aspects of sex and relationships.

Ah got you, sorry for the misunderstanding, and I agree. EDIT: reading this back, I think what I was trying to say is that autonomy and consent and generally *communicating* should be integral to any discussion of the fun stuff - I totally agree it shouldn't be presented in this very negative black and white doom-and-gloom way, but I think it can be discussed in a positive way hand-in-hand with discussion of pleasure - not just re: consent in the sense of having sex or not (and that raises the issue that we often default to a very heteronormative, phallocentric concept of "having sex"), but also being able to feel like you can say when you like or don't like something, which loads of people struggle with, especially women. I think it can and should be part of the same conversation, but I agree it's often presented in a very forbidding and binary sense with little focus on anything positive.

I didn't say this; it's what the study referred to in the Guardian it said

It's a bit of jump then to bring in heterosexual couples? it doesn't make any mention of this - perhaps you know something I don't though - either way not something I was saying as I didn't even know that was a big thing.

Yeah sorry that was a bit of an irrelevant point re: the article, and I hadn't read all the linked pieces all the way through. I'd just been talking to a friend who'd experienced this recently so I guess it was on my mind - wasn't disagreeing with anything you said on that point though, just making a slightly irrelevant tangent.

I read the Billie Ellish interview piece (which was much better than this article), it was interesting as Ellish was saying she was a consumer of porn herself which lead her to believe she should participate in things she didn't want to.  There was then counter article by several sex workers who were annoyed at Ellish's assertion that because of her reaction to porn and dislike of practicing what she viewed, that sex workers felt the same and were victims themselves like her.  They pointed out that porn and sex work isn't real life it's a job and a performance which has very little to do with what was going on with Ellish as she was in a situation of doing things she didn't want to.  I find myself kindof agreeing with both sides; porn has as impact on society but consensual sex is the business of no-one but the people involved in it.  I think a big problem with porn is that people think it is real (both men and women but in different ways); or rather they think elements of it are real.

I think it's worth mentioning that Eilish said she was 11 years old when she started watching porn. Completely agree that sex work is work etc. and there are certainly lots of incredibly prejudiced SWERF-y attitudes out there, but I don't think it's really fair for anyone (I know you weren't, btw!) to criticise Eilish for struggling to distinguish fantasy/performance from reality, and allowing it to have a damaging effect on how she viewed herself and related to others sexually, from consuming it at that age.

I dunno, personally I didn't really start watching porn until I was in my twenties which is probably quite late compared to many, but by then I was under absolutely no illusion that it reflects reality, and I knew that loads of stuff happens off camera/between takes to create the seamless-looking end performance, etc. etc. (and even then I'm very conscious it can still influence your attitudes to and expectations of sex, and your own self-esteem and body image, so I try to stay actively aware of that) - but I can absolutely see how it could affect someone that young in a really negative way. I mean I'm not naive, I know loads of children that age are accessing porn, and have done so before the Internet even, but I think it's fair to acknowledge that this might not be a great thing - at least if they haven't also been taught a very clear message that it's not reality.

Given that she's speaking from such a high-profile platform I can sort of understand why sex workers might be miffed at a seemingly anti-porn headline, but I don't think it's realistic for anyone to expect a child to fully comprehend those boundaries between fantasy and reality, and not let it affect how they then feel and act themselves. (I haven't seen that counter-article though, btw)

Again, more discussion of these things in sex education wouldn't be a bad thing at all IMHO.

[bgmnts]

I remember a sex education lesson in school and it was just some random science teacher showing us how to put a condom on a dildo.

Probably should have used her hands though.

[TrenterPercenter]

I completely agree with everything you said up to here @flotemysost so I'll just skip to this bit

I think it's worth mentioning that Eilish said she was 11 years old when she started watching porn. Completely agree that sex work is work etc. and there are certainly lots of incredibly prejudiced SWERF-y attitudes out there, but I don't think it's really fair for anyone (I know you weren't, btw!) to criticise Eilish for struggling to distinguish fantasy/performance from reality, and allowing it to have a damaging effect on how she viewed herself and related to others sexually, from consuming it at that age.

Yeah I think it does need to be taken into account Ellish's age and her subjective view, however she is a bit older now so it's her reflection now which I think was seen as problematic.  Obviously working in youth mental health online safety comes up and I've been to quite a few presentations (and been involved in some of work around it all albeit at arms length) and I think the considered view is basically you aren't going to stop young people accesses porn.  Making it hard to obtain isn't a bad thing but I remember a professor who studied it all saying you could bury it all in locked safe 20 ft deep in your garden and he knew 11 year olds that would find it.  The move is to educate and reduce the impact on a young mind pretending it doesn't exist or they won't get hold of it doesn't work.

I dunno, personally I didn't really start watching porn until I was in my twenties which is probably quite late compared to many, but by then I was under absolutely no illusion that it reflects reality, and I knew that loads of stuff happens off camera/between takes to create the seamless-looking end performance, etc. etc. (and even then I'm very conscious it can still influence your attitudes to and expectations of sex, and your own self-esteem and body image, so I try to stay actively aware of that) - but I can absolutely see how it could affect someone that young in a really negative way. I mean I'm not naive, I know loads of children that age are accessing porn, and have done so before the Internet even, but I think it's fair to acknowledge that this might not be a great thing - at least if they haven't also been taught a very clear message that it's not reality.

Porn like any media is going to influence your mind and you are completely right imo the younger you are the less defence from a rational mind you can obtain.  I think porn is still quite warping for adult consumers as well it absolutely should remain as fantasy imo and be clearly and easily identifiable as fantasy - I'm not keen on the current trend to merge it with "reality" with people having pseudo-relationships with performers - I think it's asking for trouble.

[bgmnts]

I cant even get erect anymore unless I'm watching a professional porn actress oiled up and geting drilled in all 3 holes in 4K.

[the hum]

January 2018. I blame Corbyn etc.

[flotemysost]

Yeah I think it does need to be taken into account Ellish's age and her subjective view, however she is a bit older now so it's her reflection now which I think was seen as problematic.  Obviously working in youth mental health online safety comes up and I've been to quite a few presentations (and been involved in some of work around it all albeit at arms length) and I think the considered view is basically you aren't going to stop young people accesses porn.  Making it hard to obtain isn't a bad thing but I remember a professor who studied it all saying you could bury it all in locked safe 20 ft deep in your garden and he knew 11 year olds that would find it.  The move is to educate and reduce the impact on a young mind pretending it doesn't exist or they won't get hold of it doesn't work.

I dunno, 20 is still pretty young IMO - I reckon most people are still figuring out who they are and what they're into (or not) at that age. Obviously that's subjective in itself and everyone will be influenced by different factors and circumstances, and as someone in the public eye perhaps there's higher expectations for maturity from her. She mentions coming across very violent and abusive porn which gave her nightmares at a young age, so I think it's fair enough for her to not be inclined towards objectivity - though I completely agree taking a scorched earth and/or denial approach is likely to be counterproductive, as uncomfortable as it might be to acknowledge that your child is seeking out sexual content.

At the end of the day these are pretty emotive and subjective topics and it's really hard not to project your own experiences and biases onto it (for example, I hate Page Three for various reasons but that doesn't mean I'm anti-porn, though someone could easily argue I'm being a hypocrite there).

Porn like any media is going to influence your mind and you are completely right imo the younger you are the less defence from a rational mind you can obtain.  I think porn is still quite warping for adult consumers as well it absolutely should remain as fantasy imo and be clearly and easily identifiable as fantasy - I'm not keen on the current trend to merge it with "reality" with people having pseudo-relationships with performers - I think it's asking for trouble.

Yeah, I can't disagree with any of that (which takes me back, sort of, to my earlier observation about how it does seem more people are just assuming that choking your partner during sex is OK, compared with a few years ago, going by my own and many people I know's anecdotal experiences - absolutely fine if that's a fantasy and if practiced, done safely and with consent from everyone involved, but it is definitely a bit worrying that people are breezily cracking out a move that could be potentially fatal if you fuck it up, often without even asking if their partner's OK with it or into it. I mean I'm not saying porn is solely to blame for that, I suspect it's a number of things, but it's a good example of why the concept of asking for consent really should continue to be normalised and not presented as this serious boring joyless thing that takes all the fun and sexiness out of the situation. It can be the opposite!).

I remember a sex education lesson in school and it was just some random science teacher showing us how to put a condom on a dildo.

Probably should have used her hands though.

Jokes aside it often is pretty woeful - even at my liberal, secular primary school it was mainly the functional science bit, then a brief "it also feels nice so people do this for fun, not just to have babies". I mentioned this in another thread recently, but someone in that class asked "How do gay people have sex?" and at that time thanks to Section 28 the teacher was legally required to not answer. I honestly went round for a few years believing that gay blokes just sort of bumped the tips of their cocks together for a few minutes, though that probably said more about how sheltered I was (28 I was, etc. etc.).

But then, I know people who had the whole Catholic "girls get herded into a separate room to watch a video about the horrors of abortion, no mention whatsoever of contraception or pleasure, that's yer lot" carry-on and they seem to be open-minded, confident, liberated people as far as I can tell, so who knows.