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March 29, 2024, 03:16:47 PM

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Frank Zappa's music is a load of horrible, smug old bollocks CHANGE MY MIND

Started by Lisa Jesusandmarychain, October 20, 2021, 06:33:01 AM

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Video Game Fan 2000

Sorry, for the derail (though it is an official Zappa release and has a Zappa band member on it) If you like the last three Beefheart records, Bat Chain Puller will be up your alley. It's the same songs but played way tighter, its the sound he tried to recapture after. I think Ice Cream For Crow was closest.

The drummers on the late records are good, but its not pure uncut quality Beefheart to me unless its got John French on it. In my mind, Captain Beefheart was only 50% Vliet, there's 50% Drumbo in there too. Gotta have that windshield wiper rhythm.

GoblinAhFuckScary

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on October 26, 2021, 06:30:39 PM
The drummers on the late records are good, but its not pure uncut quality Beefheart to me unless its got John French on it. In my mind, Captain Beefheart was only 50% Vliet, there's 50% Drumbo in there too. Gotta have that windshield wiper rhythm.

big up drumbo. went to see magic band 11 years ago specifically to see him. frightening how close he can come to the captain's voice (sort of)

Petey Pate

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on October 26, 2021, 06:30:39 PMThe drummers on the late records are good, but its not pure uncut quality Beefheart to me unless its got John French on it.

Fun fact, the drummer on the last Beefheart album Ice Cream for Crow was renowned film score composer Cliff Martinez, who also played drums on the first two Red Hot Chili Peppers albums.

Video Game Fan 2000

I've heard he got the job because D J Bonebreak of X missed an audition. Dunno if he was ever that much of a lock though, "Beefheart nearly played with..." stories are about as reliable as ones about Hendrix.


Johnny Yesno

Quote from: chveik on October 26, 2021, 03:05:54 AM
dunno if i am the only weirdo that prefers his last three albums than the rest

I'm the weirdo that thinks the Strictly Personal is the best. It's the last three after that though.

And I'm pretty sure there's an even bigger freak on here whose favourite is Blue Jeans and Moonbeams.

Johnny Yesno

Regarding Zappa, I just can't get on with him either. However zany and twisty and turny it gets, his music always sounds kind of flat to me. Too linear. Beefheart's music, on the other hand, has a depth to it. Layers that seem to work independently.

Of the stuff I know, which is by no means extensive, Hot Rats is the nearest to my kind of thing.

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on October 20, 2021, 08:50:39 PM
Beefheart seems to get more of a free pass in this regard, but I'd argue that a good half of even Trout Mask Replica isn't all that good.

And who produced that, hmm?

Video Game Fan 2000

Zappa also knew about what Beefheart was subjecting his band to during the Trout Mask sessions. Most of the band speak of him warmly, which makes me sad considering he could have turned up at practically any time to stop Don spiking their tea with LSD (alleged) or leaving them so hungry they stole dried beans from the grocery store (fact). Again this was in service of the Straight/Bizarre gimmick he had going on.

I think the "bush recording" idea itself, which was definitely Zappa's idea, is hilarious though - a record of white hipsters as an anthropological study.

Epic Bisto

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on October 26, 2021, 11:45:24 PM
I'm the weirdo that thinks the Strictly Personal is the best. It's the last three after that though.

And I'm pretty sure there's an even bigger freak on here whose favourite is Blue Jeans and Moonbeams.
Strictly Personal is my favourite too, followed by Doc, Trout, Decals and Crow.  The instrumental takes and rehearsals for Crow are on YouTube and sound absolutely magical.  The problem with that album is that - while it's full of proper fire and fury - Beefheart did his usual thing of getting jealous and compensating by putting his vocals far higher in the mix, leaving the musicians sounding muddy.  The instrumentals are really intricate and locked in, the rhythm section in particular are on fire here.  If the Cap'n was healthy enough for it and this line-up had a chance to do a farewell tour they would've gone out on an amazing high.

By the way, I wrote an article on my blog about Bluejeans and Moonbeams and went on about how great it is.  It's a good album and far FAR superior to Unconditionally Guaranteed - there at least sounds like a bit more life to the Bluejeans backing band.  "Observatory Crest" and the title track are just beautiful.

the science eel

and 'Twist Ah Luck'!


but I prefer UG, mainly because of the two side-openers, which are ace

Epic Bisto

Quote from: the science eel on October 27, 2021, 11:58:45 AM
and 'Twist Ah Luck'!


but I prefer UG, mainly because of the two side-openers, which are ace

How could I forget about "Upon The My Oh My"? - even under that neutered production, Zoot's really acidic guitar sound really stands out.  Not a big fan of the tired vocals though, if Don had sung with the guts of that OGWT performance, that would've been enough to redeem that album.

GoblinAhFuckScary

Quote from: Epic Bisto on October 27, 2021, 11:50:20 AM
Strictly Personal is my favourite too, followed by Doc, Trout, Decals and Crow.  The instrumental takes and rehearsals for Crow are on YouTube and sound absolutely magical.  The problem with that album is that - while it's full of proper fire and fury - Beefheart did his usual thing of getting jealous and compensating by putting his vocals far higher in the mix, leaving the musicians sounding muddy.  The instrumentals are really intricate and locked in, the rhythm section in particular are on fire here.  If the Cap'n was healthy enough for it and this line-up had a chance to do a farewell tour they would've gone out on an amazing high.

didn't know this was out there! it's wonderful, thank you for letting me know

i have similar feelings towards the trout mask demos which are similarly available. utterly magical in their own right. i love the captain don't get me wrong, but removing him does transcend the magic band from their sillier realms into something truly unique

Petey Pate

Quote from: peanutbutter on October 20, 2021, 02:47:45 PM
I really can't be bothered getting into Zappa, have tried loads of times and never managed to stick with it, but one thing I'm mildly confused by is that he seems like someone who would be sampled really heavily yet Madlib seems to nearly be the sole person sampling his shit. Given his positioning and rate of output I'd've half expected him to stumble onto some massively sampled hip hop staple tbh.

One non-Madlib Zappa sample is GZA using Plastic People for his track Cold World.

https://youtu.be/sh_YKCQKzYg?list=PLOFZMp5SZNnYczu4aRlNnyQH5Wmc3GN67

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Epic Bisto on October 27, 2021, 11:50:20 AM
Strictly Personal is my favourite too, followed by Doc, Trout, Decals and Crow.

I'm glad it's not just me. I just can't get the hang of Decals, though. Can't find a way in.

QuoteThe instrumental takes and rehearsals for Crow are on YouTube and sound absolutely magical.  The problem with that album is that - while it's full of proper fire and fury - Beefheart did his usual thing of getting jealous and compensating by putting his vocals far higher in the mix, leaving the musicians sounding muddy.  The instrumentals are really intricate and locked in, the rhythm section in particular are on fire here.  If the Cap'n was healthy enough for it and this line-up had a chance to do a farewell tour they would've gone out on an amazing high.

I guess you mean this:

Captain Beefheart & The Magic Band - Ice Cream For Crow Instrumentals & Outtakes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7PGPQXi-wg

Cheers for the headsup. That's great. You can actually hear the bass properly.

QuoteBy the way, I wrote an article on my blog about Bluejeans and Moonbeams and went on about how great it is.  It's a good album and far FAR superior to Unconditionally Guaranteed - there at least sounds like a bit more life to the Bluejeans backing band.  "Observatory Crest" and the title track are just beautiful.

Sorry about that, ya freak! You're probably right that UG is worse but I haven't spent enough time with either of them to judge.

Johnny Yesno

Fuck me. That first version of Hey Garland, I Dig Your Tweed Coat seems to warp time.

Did Zappa ever do anything like this?

the science eel

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on October 27, 2021, 05:34:45 PM
I just can't get the hang of Decals, though. Can't find a way in.

I'm pleased to hear this.

God knows I've tried with that album. It's especially frustrating when people say things like 'it's undiluted Beefheart', or 'it's the natural follow-up to TMR - but better!' - because I just don't hear it. It's such a dark, ugly sounding thing. To me, it completely lacks the playful aspect which makes you want to go back to TMR again and again. I don't hear any standout tracks, no 'Ella Guru' or 'Moonlight on Vermont' or 'Pachuco Cadaver'.

Fuck it, anyway, life's too short. I sold the remaster on Discogs a few months back.

GoblinAhFuckScary

decals would be infinitely better without the marimba. makes it sound like zappa

would be a dream for someone to do a proper good remix of them beefheart albums. drumbo make it happen! wrestle them from the cold dead hands of the fz family trust

chveik


Video Game Fan 2000

I was very disappointed by it when I first heard it but so many of the tracks are favourites. It's definitely Zappa-style arrangement, but it works for the songs - Woe-is-uh-me Bop, Buggy Boogie Woogie, Doctor Dark and the gross one about toes  I love them

I'm glad he quit the Zappa jazz thing after that though.

famethrowa

Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on October 27, 2021, 07:32:49 PM
decals would be infinitely better without the marimba. makes it sound like zappa


My thought: everything would be better without the marimba. Frank was obsessed by the stupid thing and its sucky doorbell sound ruins every song he put it on.

re Beefheart derail: I quite like The Blimp.

Video Game Fan 2000

I'm glad someone made an album thats divided between "songs about oral" and "songs about the anthropocene"

GoblinAhFuckScary

i mean i do actually love decals but it is also banjo kazooie music

Petey Pate


Pauline Walnuts

Director Tony Palmer about Frank Zappa 200 Motels.



Wish he freakin' had.