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March 29, 2024, 11:53:59 AM

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Gendering videogame characters

Started by GoblinAhFuckScary, December 05, 2021, 03:21:05 PM

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GoblinAhFuckScary

I was just thinking to myself about how I never knew what gender the banker out of Majora's Mask was.

Here is their original model in situ:



And the artwork for the 3D release:



I'm surprised to learn that they're a he according to the official Zelda wiki, since I had always read them as a woman when I was younger. I thought it was cool her having the entire town's finances at her whim. I wonder if this is canonical or just wiki bs.

The banker's a gal! Fuck it! I feel like I definitely have had this feeling about lots of other characters especially before the popularity of voice acting but I'm struggling to remember at the moment because videogames are much more a 'in the past' thing for me

Kelvin

I always thought they were a guy in Ocarina and Majora, but that 3DS artwork definitely looks like a girl.


GoblinAhFuckScary

Quote from: Kelvin on December 05, 2021, 04:07:25 PMI always thought they were a guy in Ocarina and Majora, but that 3DS artwork definitely looks like a girl.

Yeah it definitely puts a whole lot of emphasis on feminine characteristics especially with the chest and waist

Kelvin

Hair reminds me of Brittany's bob from Pikmin 3, too.

bgmnts

Well i mean if they say he's a he then he's a he. Otherwise fuck it Raiden from Metal Gear Solid 2 is a she.

Would be cool to have some more genderless or androgynous video game playable characters.

GoblinAhFuckScary

Something I've always felt particularly strange is how Nintendo decide to have a woman protagonist in Metroid, but make her gender completely incidental, serving frankly as a titillating afterthought for collecting all the things. Here's yer reward ya nerds

I love Samus but the objectifying and lazily-applied application of her gender's always bothered me.

An interesting element to this is that one of the original designers for Samus claimed she "wasn't a woman," but instead, "ニューハーフ," or "newhalf.", (a derogatory term for a trans woman)

hmm

GoblinAhFuckScary

Quote from: bgmnts on December 05, 2021, 04:52:31 PMWell i mean if they say he's a he then he's a he. Otherwise fuck it Raiden from Metal Gear Solid 2 is a she.

Would be cool to have some more genderless or androgynous video game playable characters.

Well I mean in MGS2 Raiden is quite obviously a 'he' with feminine qualities. It's ambiguous in Majora because the text of the game never elaborates in the slightest, and I don't think the wiki is an authority, in fact it says it requires citation next to their gender.

bgmnts

Well fuck it then it's whatever you want. I'd say neither.

Pink Gregory

Surely they've kind of improved on Samus' portayal as a woman since the original game?

Oh, Metroid Other M.

Never mind.

Pink Gregory

Could you reasonably say that the intention behind Raiden's feminine traits is that of him not measuring up to Snake somehow, seeing as he's supposed to be running a simulation of the Shadow Moses mission?

For the same reason that he's humiliatingly stripped naked to be tortured, as opposed to Snake, who just has his shirt off?

Kelvin

Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on December 05, 2021, 04:55:59 PMSomething I've always felt particularly strange is how Nintendo decide to have a woman protagonist in Metroid, but make her gender completely incidental, serving frankly as a titillating afterthought for collecting all the things. Here's yer reward ya nerds

I love Samus but the objectifying and lazily-applied application of her gender's always bothered me.

An interesting element to this is that one of the original designers for Samus claimed she "wasn't a woman," but instead, "ニューハーフ," or "newhalf.", (a derogatory term for a trans woman)

hmm

That was definitely true when Samus was conceived, it was basically just a twist ending. I don't think they even decided on it themselves until late in development.

I don't agree that her gender is always pure titillation in later games in the series, though. Dread doesn't show Samus in her zero suit at all, not even in the final completion screen. And she's unquestionably Nintendo's "coolest" character by miles; the stuff she does in Dread, the ways she moves, and lands, and fights, nothing else comes close to that level of badassery. I'm a cis male, so take this with a pinch of salt... but I would think Samus' portrayal in Dread is one of the better portrayals of a female protaganist in videogames right now; every bit the equal to male protagonists, but without being written with more typically masculine traits in the process.

Both Dread and the Prime games also regularly show her eyes/face, and she clearly sounds like a woman. I wouldn't say it's an afterthought. I'm constantly aware that I'm playing as Samus, not just a suit of armour.

Spoiler alert
We won't talk about Other M.
[close]

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I think Metroid takes inspiration from Alien (hence the baddie named and modelled after Ridley Scott) so the lead characters are both tough women (who still end up in their underwear).

Quina in Final Fantasy IX in an interesting one. Preferred pronoun: she/he. Appearance: Stay Puft Marshmallowperson in a cottagecore frock.

bgmnts

Quote from: thecuriousorange on December 05, 2021, 09:08:31 PMQuina in Final Fantasy IX in an interesting one. Preferred pronoun: she/he. Appearance: Stay Puft Marshmallowperson in a cottagecore frock.

Yes! More Quina.

Cloud

Quote from: thecuriousorange on December 05, 2021, 09:08:31 PMQuina in Final Fantasy IX in an interesting one. Preferred pronoun: she/he. Appearance: Stay Puft Marshmallowperson in a cottagecore frock.

Just who I was thinking of, heh

The whole 's/he' thing really grated in the dialogue - I'd hope that nowadays "they/them" would be used.

oggyraiding

What's the modern consensus on Birdo? Nintendo gave some mixed messages.

Also Poison from the Street Fighter games and Final Fight, with similar mixed messages.

Kelvin

#16
Quote from: oggyraiding on December 07, 2021, 08:09:22 PMWhat's the modern consensus on Birdo? Nintendo gave some mixed messages.

I think Birdo's a girl now, according to Nintendo. And not in the sense that trans women are women, but just, she was always a cis girl actually, no more questions. Very problematic history of course, but it would have been nice if they'd just thrown up their hands about it, admitted it should have been handled better, and then lent into it.

They'll never do that of course.

Consignia

It really depends who you ask. The Japanese developed Captain Rainbow protrayed Birdo as a trans-woman, in as tasteful a way as you'd expect from a Japanese developer.

racecar bed indy 500

Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on December 05, 2021, 04:58:04 PMWell I mean in MGS2 Raiden is quite obviously a 'he' with feminine qualities. It's ambiguous in Majora because the text of the game never elaborates in the slightest, and I don't think the wiki is an authority, in fact it says it requires citation next to their gender.

Yeah when there's no citation or indication of something in-game or in a manual/tutorial it's really impossible to say. In cases like this I default to them being non-binary bc that means we can get some cool rep in even if the vast majority of these cases are minor characters.

Tho of course related is the ambiguous/blank slate rpg protag. Similar deal in my opinion but even more-so since you're encouraged to self-insert to a degree with those.

Zetetic

I think I was slightly disappointed when a particular techpriest was referred to with a gendered pronoun in Mechanicus, since everything about their personality and identity spoke fairly strongly against that sort of thing.

Enjoy the names that droids are assigned in Duskers, though I couldn't say why. Perhaps because those are simply a joke, of sorts.

bgmnts

Now that I think about it, it fucking sucks how little choice there is for this, even in fantasy or science fiction games, where you can create any species you want, there's still just Man and Woman.

Fuck that noise. It's boring as cunt

Thursday

There's has been a move in some games though towards avoiding using terms like "male" or "female" in character creation screens. So it may still be a binary choice but it's less explicitly defined as male or female.

Zetetic

Sounds awful.

The dogs-dinner of Forza Horizon 5 multiple binary choices combined with then artlessly grabbing your username without warning comes to mind.

Kelvin

#23
Character creators are slowly moving in the right direction, I think. "Masculine" and "Feminine" voices aren't always tied to gender now, for example. And even Animal Crossing let you wear whatever clothes you want, although maybe that was always the case - New Horizons was my first AC.

Obviously character creators shouldn't be cited as proof that trans and non-binary characters are common in gaming though.

Zetetic

Quote from: Kelvin on December 20, 2021, 10:50:54 PM"Masculine" and "Feminine" voices aren't always tied to gender now, for example.
Yes, that's one of the FH5 choices. As a whole, I don't think the setup comes off terribly well in practice, at least with the hilariously tonedeaf username grab (a trick I've mostly seen in horror games, which makes it an odd choice for the intro of an escapist car wanking simulator).

(Edit: I think there's some little things that FH5 does that's a lot more serious about inclusivity via representation and other means, away from gender, which makes the contrast greater.)

racecar bed indy 500

Quote from: Kelvin on December 20, 2021, 10:50:54 PMCharacter creators are slowly moving in the right direction, I think. "Masculine" and "Feminine" voices aren't always tied to gender now, for example. And even Animal Crossing let you wear whatever clothes you want, although maybe that was always the case - New Horizons was my first AC.

Obviously character creators shouldn't be cited as proof that trans and non-binary characters are common in gaming though.

It's the same way with how there are characters that are "mechanically bisexual" because of player's choice rather than something that was explicitly written into the character at any point. It's good, but a lot more can be done for representation. I saw a video essay about this a few weeks ago and can find it if anybody likes.

Jerzy Bondov

I think NiGHTS from the game NiGHTS is non-binary

Mister Six

Quote from: racecar bed indy 500 on December 28, 2021, 09:53:28 AMIt's the same way with how there are characters that are "mechanically bisexual" because of player's choice rather than something that was explicitly written into the character at any point. It's good, but a lot more can be done for representation. I saw a video essay about this a few weeks ago and can find it if anybody likes.

In the case of Fallout 4 it seemed to be just a way to make development easier. Just let the same romance scripts/substories play out with the same dialogue options for all players, and don't worry about having to playtest all romances with both male and female protagonists.

Lazy shite, basically. Dragon Age (and New Vegas, for that matter) gets it right by specifically having straight, gay, lesbian and bi characters for whom their sexuality is an integral part (if not necessarily an important part) of their personalities, and giving them some (scripted, obviously) agency to pursue the player if certain conditions are met, including the player's gender.

(Wasn't the worst thing about Fallout 4's relationships, mind - that was the player character shagging their way across the wasteland mere days-to-weeks after vowing to avenge their spouse's murder.)

Hm, just occurred to me that the player can't be trans in DA:O. Certain details of the run-up to the finale presume your character is cis. But maybe you can work around that with the dialogue choices.

Zetetic

Thinking, elsewhere about Skyrim's lack of reactivity to player's "race", also reminded me that a notable aspect of New Vegas is how the Legion responds to the player differently if they're a woman.