Corbyn to oppose compulsory vaccines/vaccine passports.

[Darles Chickens]

The job thing is laughable.  I work as a cleaner.  All through the pandemic cleaners have been some of the most exposed people.  Now we're being told we could lose our shitty minimum wage jobs (that were deemed safe and necessary throughout) if we don't obey.

Have you been vaccinated?  If so, there is no problem.  If not, you're arguably part of the problem.  I understand that your point is one of ideology (why should the government compel us to be vaccinated?), but ultimately no one is forcing a needle into anyone's arm; however, people's choices have consequences, and in this case, not being vaccinated might cost you the freedom to participate in other things.  Yes, it's a form of coercion from the state, but 200+ years of medical science show us that vaccinations are the best tool for controlling disease, and for the better good of society in general.

The Government doesn't force you to have a bank account (you may indeed not have one), but you will find participating in certain aspects of society difficult if you don't have one. Again, that's your choice.

We are all free, but most societies don't promise total freedom.  That would be anarchy.

[Buelligan]

I haven't been vaccinated.  I have been extremely ill (right at the start, with covid), the immunity it granted me enabled me to keep working throughout the pandemic, cleaning up other peoples' shit.

[flotemysost]

Yeah vaccine passports for essential food shopping (which would obviously be nuts) and for nightclubs, gigs, restaurants etc. are completely different kettles of fish IMO.

Mainly because that would obviously be ridiculously discriminatory against people who can't be vaccinated, but also because generally when I go to the supermarket, I'm not there for hours on end writhing next to loads of sweaty strangers (except when they bring out the yellow sticker machine at Asda, maybe). Not saying essential shopping isn't without risk of course - we do have a duty to protect staff and customers, hence mask wearing (unless exempt) and distancing. Not that anyone's doing that either, really.

But yeah I can definitely see the problematic element of vaccine passports - not so much the actual vaccine element of it but things like, as vanilla.coffee says, the requirement to have access to a personal smartphone, which not everyone wants or can afford - but I'm less invested in the "everyone's entitled to their personal choice" bit at this point. Of course there are people with very legitimate medical reasons why they can't receive the vaccine, but for everyone else, ultimately it's not just a personal choice because it affects others.

So far vaccines haven't been mandatory in the UK for the general public at any point, so people do still have a choice, but unvaccinated people shouldn't necessarily expect to have access to all the same places (as customers/punters, I mean) as people who are less likely to be carrying or transmitting the virus - I think that's pretty reasonable. Most venues requiring proof of vaccination for entry also give the alternative option of showing a recent negative test result, or natural immunity from having recovered recently, so it's not even a binary choice.

(I'm not saying I think people should be going out clubbing right now, fwiw, obviously that's not an essential thing and everyone, vaccinated or not, does have a duty to make sensible decisions based on the situation - but in the long run it seems unfair to expect any industry that relies on people being together in a room to grind to a halt, just because some people who don't want to be vaccinated aren't willing to accept responsibility for the risk their choice might present to others.)

As you say Buelligan I do think vaccination programmes are being expected to do a LOT of heavy lifting while other (often very simple) measures like mask-wearing, distancing and ventilation are being overlooked or outright ignored.

[Darles Chickens]

The EU covid passport thing counts "recovered from Covid-19" as an accepted status, but only for a certain period of time afterwards; when natural immunity starts to fade, then you'd require your first vaccine in order to qualify as "protected".

I don't know whether you intend to vaccinate yourself, but I find it depressing that more and more people everywhere are expressing anti-vax views, when just five years ago it would have been considered something from the loony fringe.

[Buelligan]

It's not anti-vax views, on my part at least, it's anti-state control of me.  I'm full of vaccines that I chose to accept. 

No.  It's anti-self-righteous in-groupers.  It's anti-us and them-ing. 

I'm just utterly against making lists of people and then ticking them off.  Especially when a government does it.

[Crenners]

Tfw you accidentally stan the wrong Corbyn 🎃🎃🎃

[flotemysost]

The EU covid passport thing counts "recovered from Covid-19" as an accepted status, but only for a certain period of time afterwards; when natural immunity starts to fade, then you'd require your first vaccine in order to qualify as "protected".

Yeah I think it's about six months isn't it? One of my friends caught covid just before she was due to get her first vaccine, and her doctor advised she'd be OK to hold off for a while (she's since been vaccinated).

I can understand resentment of government mandates but I basically just don't want to put myself or anyone at risk of getting seriously ill or dying - it doesn't mean I agree with the government, it's nothing to do with that at all, it's literally just the practical benefits of getting a vaccine. I just want to see my vulnerable family members (even though I barely have anyway since 2019) and have a life without worrying I'm going to inadvertently kill someone.

[beanheadmcginty]

They don't have computers or printers. They're both three times vaxxed now but can't prove it to get into Sainsburys if asked for a vax pass.

You don't need to personally own the computer or printer in order to print out something from a computer. I should know, as seemingly the only person in my family and friendship group to own a printer I'm constantly printing out covid related documents for everyone.

[Huxleys Babkins]

As you say Buelligan I do think vaccination programmes are being expected to do a LOT of heavy lifting while other (often very simple) measures like mask-wearing, distancing and ventilation are being overlooked or outright ignored.

This is it for me, really. The vaccines don't stop transmission and the further away you are from your dose, the less effective they are. They are amazing for reducing symptoms, but not particularly effective in stopping the spread, certainly not in the environments they are wanting to use the passports in because the contact is too close and too long. 50% reduction in transmission might as well be 0% if I'm sat next to multiple maskless, guffawing people for a couple of hours in a theatre as I will be when I (hopefully) see Strategem next year.

There are much more important, cost effective and practical things we could be doing to protect people; reducing attendance, masks, distancing, ventilation, etc., but we aren't, just insisting on the thing that lets the government harvest a ton of data that they can sell on.

My son is still attending school in spite of two cases in his class in the past week. 30 kids all unvaxxed, all not distanced, sod all ventilation, going to and from school, mixing with friends and relatives outside of school, vaxxed or otherwise. What good the passport scheme in the face of that?

[Darles Chickens]

My understanding is that the vaccines have a worthwhile long-term effect in reducing the likelihood of successful variants appearing.  Right now, Omicron shows us that it's full-on Whack-a-Mole, so if we have any chance of beating the virus, and returning to something approximating normality, we have to curb the mutations.

In Spain, masks have been mandatory in indoors public spaces since the very beginning (including in schools and shops). Combined with 90% vaccine uptake, our data looks pretty good right now - no idea whether those are causal factors, but they can't be hurting, right?  I agree that the vaccine passport thing is a joke if a country isn't taking other sensible precautions (and let's not get started on "anti-maskers").

I can understand resentment of government mandates but I basically just don't want to put myself or anyone at risk of getting seriously ill or dying - it doesn't mean I agree with the government, it's nothing to do with that at all, it's literally just the practical benefits of getting a vaccine. I just want to see my vulnerable family members (even though I barely have anyway since 2019) and have a life without worrying I'm going to inadvertently kill someone.

Thank you for that, I agree 100%.  Having known someone die of this after a year-long fight (this chap), and heard of the agony he went through just trying to take a breath, it pains and sickens me to see people still being so flippant on this subject.  If we ever want to get on top of it, it requires concerted co-operation.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Do you really think retrofitting buildings with expensive and environmentally damaging ventilation systems is the right way to fight covid?

MVHR is environmentally sound and fundamentally necessary in well insulated buildings to prevent moisture build up?

[ads82]

Isn't there already a requirement for NHS staff to take certain vaccinations?

[katzenjammer]

Probably. Vaccine mandates are nothing new

[Zetetic]

Hep B is mandatory for various frontline groups, I believe.

(Hep A, TB, etc. are a bit more complicated, IIRC.)

[Zetetic]

Vaccine mandates are nothing new

They're quite rare in the UK, really, not least because of concerns about the impact on trust.

[bgmnts]

It's not anti-vax views, on my part at least, it's anti-state control of me.  I'm full of vaccines that I chose to accept. 

No.  It's anti-self-righteous in-groupers.  It's anti-us and them-ing. 

I'm just utterly against making lists of people and then ticking them off.  Especially when a government does it.

You chose to get MMR as a kid? I barely even remember getting it but don't remember there being much of a choice.

[Blue Jam]

Hep B is mandatory for various frontline groups, I believe.

(Hep A, TB, etc. are a bit more complicated, IIRC.)

As a researcher who is about to start working on human blood and tissue (provided by consenting NHS patients) I've got to have Hep B but that's more for my protection that anyone else's.

The NHS questionnaire includes a lot of questions on TB, on whether I can provide proof of any tests as well as vaccines, and even if I have a BCG scar as proof.

[Malachi Constant]

Yeah, I wasn't directly referring to their stance on covid vaccination.  More their ideas on other medical intervention - blood transfusions, for instance. 

General opinion is that receiving one, when deemed necessary by a qualified medical practitioner, is a good thing.  However, because we live in a society where we uphold the idea of personal choice over what happens to our own bodies, we accept that adult sane JW's have a perfect right to elect not to receive a transfusion.

Right, fair enough. I see your point now :)

[flotemysost]

My understanding is that the vaccines have a worthwhile long-term effect in reducing the likelihood of successful variants appearing.  Right now, Omicron shows us that it's full-on Whack-a-Mole, so if we have any chance of beating the virus, and returning to something approximating normality, we have to curb the mutations.

That's it - it's pretty gutting to think we wouldn't necessarily be in the situation we're in now, if only more people had been vaccinated earlier on. I mean I think the massive inequality in global vaccine distribution takes a big chunk of the blame for that, but that makes it even more frustrating when people who do have easy access are willfully refusing it. I have a few Brazilian friends and they're completely baffled and angered, understandably, by the refuseniks in this country. (I suppose over there, getting the vaccine is an act of political rebellion - but either way it doesn't really matter when people are dying in their droves.)

This also why the stupid "If you've got the vaccine and it works, why are you so scared of me?" White Rose stickers round my way don't make any sense. That's not how the virus works! One of the (many) people I know who's currently isolating with covid is double-vaccinated and boosted, but also works in a hospital in one of the boroughs with the lowest vaccine uptake. I mean that might not be the source of infection of course - it could be from public transport, or a friend, or anywhere really - but it's hardly evidence that vaccines don't work, more that transmission is on the rise because obviously mutations have had a chance to flourish.

Thank you for that, I agree 100%.  Having known someone die of this after a year-long fight (this chap), and heard of the agony he went through just trying to take a breath, it pains and sickens me to see people still being so flippant on this subject.  If we ever want to get on top of it, it requires concerted co-operation.

I remember seeing this at the time - I'm really sorry for your loss.

[chveik]

That's it - it's pretty gutting to think we wouldn't necessarily be in the situation we're in now, if only more people had been vaccinated earlier on.

nah. vaccination by itself can't eliminate covid, it requires additional measures. i don't have a particular fondness for hardcore antivaxxers but i feel the same way about the people that thought getting the vaccine meant that they could do whatever the fuck they wanted. but it's useless to blame randos for the current shitshow, ultimately it's states and corporations that want the situation to stay this way.

ie Corbyn's right

[Blue Jam]

That's it - it's pretty gutting to think we wouldn't necessarily be in the situation we're in now, if only more people had been vaccinated earlier on. I mean I think the massive inequality in global vaccine distribution takes a big chunk of the blame for that, but that makes it even more frustrating when people who do have easy access are willfully refusing it. I have a few Brazilian friends and they're completely baffled and angered, understandably, by the refuseniks in this country. (I suppose over there, getting the vaccine is an act of political rebellion - but either way it doesn't really matter when people are dying in their droves.)

Over here it's the kind of rebellion that's basically cutting your nose off to spite your face. Refusing a vaccine that isn't compulsory (and in Scotland at least there's even a clear process for opting out of the vaccination program entirely) is about as rebellious as Laurence Fox tweeting a photo of himself enjoying a completely legal pint in a beer garden with the caption "Yum!". Who cares if it's rebellious or not? Why can't people weigh up the evidence without getting emotional or bringing politics into it?

I had my Covid booster at a drop-in clinic at werk because my werkplace is a hospital campus and I guess it just seemed a good idea to offer the jab to everyone werking here (not just NHS staff) to protect the patients. I already had an appointment but jumped at the chance to get it three weeks earlier. It wasn't compulsory, I had it because I just didn't want to get ill.

Two of my colleagues have been off werk with Covid this week and while neither are seriously ill (one is asymptomatic) it's still been a massive headache (which has also doubled my werkload). I could do without getting ill myself and having to write off the end of term completely.

[flotemysost]

nah. vaccination by itself can't eliminate covid, it requires additional measures.

Oh I didn't mean eliminating covid - that ship's long sailed - I meant the current situation with a new, mega transmissible variant. As mentioned I'm not too hopeful about the current UK strategy of "throw everything at the booster programme, but everyone carry on as you were otherwise" either, but that doesn't mean I think people shouldn't bother getting vaccinated.

Over here it's the kind of rebellion that's basically cutting your nose off to spite your face. Refusing a vaccine that isn't compulsory (and in Scotland at least there's even a clear process for opting out of the vaccination program entirely) is about as rebellious as Laurence Fox tweeting a photo of himself enjoying a completely legal pint in a beer garden with the caption "Yum!". Who cares if it's rebellious or not? Why can't people weigh up the evidence without getting emotional or bringing politics into it?

Yeah that's it, it's just a functional thing that makes sense to do, nothing political about it (though I can appreciate it might well be an emotive topic for people who've lost loved ones, or become seriously ill themselves, from covid). I'm certainly no fan of Boris or the government or the way this whole sorry situation has been handled, about as far from it as you can get, but I'm not gonna refuse it on that basis.

[Blue Jam]

(though I can appreciate it might well be an emotive topic for people who've lost loved ones, or become seriously ill themselves, from covid).

Oh yes, good point, that's totally understandable. Getting emotional over other people's selfishness is one thing, getting angry about a non-existent forced vaccination programme is quite another.

Here in Scotchland we've had people writing messages on the pavements in chalk urging us to resist compulsory vaccination. Yesterday I checked the NHS online service to see if the booster appointment I no longer need had been cancelled, and found that if I had needed to cancel it or even wanted to opt out entirely it would have been a piece of piss.

[Buelligan]

There are much more important, cost effective and practical things we could be doing to protect people; reducing attendance, masks, distancing, ventilation, etc., but we aren't, just insisting on the thing that lets the government harvest a ton of data that they can sell on.

Absolutely agree with this.  If a thing really is important then we must use every avenue open to defeat it.  But we have people having parties, going to clubs and other venues, being forced to stop working from home, being forced (through lack of sick pay and furlough) to work when they may be ill (people like me don't get paid anything for the first three days absence, after that it's a pittance, when you're living hand to mouth, losing any money isn't an option, not if you want to keep a roof over your head), trotting about maskless (including people like Johnson), bugger-all investment in schools, flying round the fucking globe for pleasure, the list goes on an on.  BUT EVERYONE MUST GET VACCINATED.

You chose to get MMR as a kid? I barely even remember getting it but don't remember there being much of a choice.

No.  I was ill with measles and mumps (I didn't live in the UK when I was a kid) and I elected to have a rubella vaccination when I was a teenager.  My body, my choice.

[Crenners]

Vax is a hill to literally die on. 😂😂😂

[Buelligan]

I must say, you do come across as someone who has devoted a great deal of considered thought to the whole thing.  Thank goodness there are people like you out there, encouraging everyone to act responsibly.

[flotemysost]

I think the thing is it's not a black and white issue. Vaccines can't do the job alone and I agree the current vax-centric approach in the UK seems pretty obviously foolhardy and will likely not end well, but at the same time they have been proven to be very effective in preventing illness and, to an extent, transmission (obviously that's more effective the more people are vaccinated) - it doesn't seem like a reason to not get them.

I don't see it as supporting or agreeing with the government in any way, and obviously it doesn't mean I don't still think there's a need for fairer sick pay or an extended furlough scheme or more support for struggling independent businesses which couldn't open during lockdowns or better pay for NHS staff, or any of the horrendous inequalities this awful situation has brought to the fore. I just want to lessen the risk of getting ill, or making people around me ill or worse (it's not so much myself I'm worried about, but I don't want to unwittingly be a vector for someone more vulnerable).

Appreciate I'm in a really very privileged position as someone who's had job security throughout this whole time and can work from home, so if I got sick myself I wouldn't have much to lose in that sense - but I still can't understand refusing it purely on the basis of making a point. Not saying it's the same thing, but I was pretty miserable, anxious and lonely during lockdown (as many people were, of course) and I didn't especially WANT to go along with it, but I could completely understand the need for it at the time - even if I could also see that the government who put the rules in place were massively hypocritical twats with absolutely no idea about the realities of most people's lives.

[Cuellar]

Thick cunt

Actually I take this back I'm with him 100%

[Crenners]

Mad thing is anti-vaxxers are exactly the kind of person I don't want to get the vax so we get on great.

[vanilla.coffee]

Those that are pro booster number 3... how pro booster no. 4 will they be when the March 2022 variant arrives?