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New Louis CK special - "Sorry"

Started by dirkgonnadirk, December 18, 2021, 11:38:08 PM

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Pdine

Quote from: BeardFaceMan on January 12, 2022, 11:28:41 AMAnd that you believe the apology so much that you chose to financially support him.

I suppose I do, yes. I also believe that a load of people I financially support are not morally unimpeachable, which makes it easier to accept I guess.

QuoteYou could have torrented the show instead but you actually chose to put money in his pocket, I'd say it's pretty clear you've made your judgement.

It's funny, because my personal morality doesn't let me pirate people's work (these days - I am a recent convert). You could say: "...but he's an abuser" however for me again I'm not excused from my societal duties just because someone else has transgressed. Going down that road fucks the whole societal thing, in my opinion.

Quote"men will be men, what are you going to do?", by the sound of it.

That's partially fair. I do think that there are some moral failings we will never eradicate, and that some of those are peculiarly male. I'm not - though - saying that that makes them the same as being morally acceptable. We should always point out shitty behaviour, but we have to be realistic about the forms of it that are ubiquitous. Saying that Louis CK should disappear from public life because he is creepy and sexually compulsive is a position one can hold; I'm just saying that I think that applying that standard rigourously across the board would remove huge numbers of people from public life. If you're saying: "so be it" then I can't argue with that.

BeardFaceMan

All it is for me is this - do I want to give my money to someone to help them live a lavish lifestyle of fame and fortune when I think that person is a piece of shit? No, I'd rather give it someone else and get my jollies elsewhere. He's not indisposable, he's not curing cancer, he's making people laugh for an hour and there are plenty of other people about who do that who aren't wankbeasts so my money and attention goes to them instead.

Pdine

Quote from: BeardFaceMan on January 12, 2022, 12:09:25 PMAll it is for me is this - do I want to give my money to someone to help them live a lavish lifestyle of fame and fortune when I think that person is a piece of shit? No, I'd rather give it someone else and get my jollies elsewhere. He's not indisposable, he's not curing cancer, he's making people laugh for an hour and there are plenty of other people about who do that who aren't wankbeasts so my money and attention goes to them instead.

Yeah I can see that. The curing cancer thing is interesting because it highlights how much this is a problem that's at its worst in 'art'. If someone came up with a cure to cancer, patented it, and then was exposed as some kind of abuser or creep, no-one would realistically suggest boycotting the cure. That's my point I guess; ultimately this is all transactional: what can I stomach in exchange for what I find useful or enjoyable? For me that's a personal choice, which each person should be allowed to make without being attacked for their conclusion.

Whug Baspin

Personally, if the work is extraordinary and the transgressions are ordinary I'll search out the work, If the work is ordinary I'll change the supplier.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: Pdine on January 12, 2022, 11:23:33 AMWhat worries me is that when it becomes OK to attack other audience members for their own assessment
It's a comedy discussion forum, and people disagree with you. How would you rather they posted?

Pdine

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on January 12, 2022, 01:10:40 PMIt's a comedy discussion forum, and people disagree with you. How would you rather they posted?

Hmm, I think you maybe didn't read my earlier post (which is fine). In summary: I'm against leveraging moral judgement against aesthetic judgement on a comedy forum.

BeardFaceMan

Quote from: Pdine on January 12, 2022, 11:48:19 AMIt's funny, because my personal morality doesn't let me pirate people's work (these days - I am a recent convert). You could say: "...but he's an abuser" however for me again I'm not excused from my societal duties just because someone else has transgressed. Going down that road fucks the whole societal thing, in my opinion.

You think it's a societal duty to not steal his work whether he's an abuser or not, but you don't see it as a societal duty to not support an abuser and help them continue with their lavish lifestyle while the people he abused are still suffering because of it (I believe one woman quit comedy altogether because of it)? You don't think it fucks society to say "but he's an abuser? so what? Nothing can ever be done so why bother trying?"

Pimhole

Quote from: Pdine on January 12, 2022, 11:23:33 AMsomeone with little empathy and sexually compulsive tendencies. If those characteristics mean you should never work again, I think we'd lose a hefty percentage of male comedians.

That would be great tbh.

Pdine

Quote from: BeardFaceMan on January 12, 2022, 02:06:15 PMYou think it's a societal duty to not steal his work whether he's an abuser or not, but you don't see it as a societal duty to not support an abuser and help them continue with their lavish lifestyle while the people he abused are still suffering because of it (I believe one woman quit comedy altogether because of it)? You don't think it fucks society to say "but he's an abuser? so what? Nothing can ever be done so why bother trying?"

I don't see the 'lavish lifestyle' point as either here or there to be honest but for the rest of it: I would really like anyone CK hurt to be restored to exactly where they would have been had the abuse not happened. I doubt that can happen though, so realistically I'd just like them to get as close to that as possible. So the question then is - I reckon - does CK being forever excluded get us any closer to that goal?

j_u_d_a_s

Really bored of Louis CK fans looking for validation. I've seen several posts on various boards asking what people think of LCK now, has he done his time etc. There's always the hidden subtext of "am I a bad person for enjoying his comedy knowing what he did?" And you know what? There's no one size fits all answer. He's dead to me because so much of his act was him declaring how enlightened he was, one of his biggest routines was talking about much of a danger to women men were. If you enjoy his work still then fine, horses for courses. But don't make out that it's a virtue that you're giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry you feel the claw of guilt scratching at the back of your head every time you pay for a show by a wankbeast but please, work that out by yourself and stop bothering everyone else for your own "redemption".

ProvanFan


j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: Pdine on January 11, 2022, 04:56:45 PMAs a society we believe in rehabilitation yet many of us reject the only mechanism people like CK (uncharged/unconvicted) have for rehabilitation: return to public acceptance.

The pedantic pointing out of "uncharged/unconvicted" is the big tell here. If you use the rule of law as a measure of morality then you're on a hiding to nothing. That line of thinking ignores the low rates of prosecution for sexual assault for a start. A recent example, Charlie Hanson has had 11 women accuse him of serious sexual assault. Not charged or convicted but to have 11 women all come out with similar stories? And just about every female performer on the circuit come out with their own experiences? There's other male comics on the circuit considered an "open secret", heck there's even a whisper network of acts and promoters to avoid among female comedians. Just because there's not a charge doesn't mean they're not predatory. I suspect this post and your posts on this thread in particular are your own insecurities about still watching and financially supporting a performer who's admitted to sexual harrasment.

Pdine

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on January 12, 2022, 04:29:54 PMReally bored of Louis CK fans looking for validation. I've seen several posts on various boards asking what people think of LCK now, has he done his time etc. There's always the hidden subtext of "am I a bad person for enjoying his comedy knowing what he did?" And you know what? There's no one size fits all answer. He's dead to me because so much of his act was him declaring how enlightened he was, one of his biggest routines was talking about much of a danger to women men were. If you enjoy his work still then fine, horses for courses. But don't make out that it's a virtue that you're giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry you feel the claw of guilt scratching at the back of your head every time you pay for a show by a wankbeast but please, work that out by yourself and stop bothering everyone else for your own "redemption".

Hah! yeah!

somersetchris

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on January 12, 2022, 04:29:54 PMReally bored of Louis CK fans looking for validation. I've seen several posts on various boards asking what people think of LCK now, has he done his time etc. There's always the hidden subtext of "am I a bad person for enjoying his comedy knowing what he did?" And you know what? There's no one size fits all answer. He's dead to me because so much of his act was him declaring how enlightened he was, one of his biggest routines was talking about much of a danger to women men were. If you enjoy his work still then fine, horses for courses. But don't make out that it's a virtue that you're giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry you feel the claw of guilt scratching at the back of your head every time you pay for a show by a wankbeast but please, work that out by yourself and stop bothering everyone else for your own "redemption".

Yeah the one consistent theme I see here from apologists is 'I like his work so I'm going to continue to consume it. I don't care enough about his behaviour or his victims to stop and I don't want anyone to make me feel bad about it.'

It just sounds like a guilty conscience, every time. "But how can I stop watching, he's a good comedian!"

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: somersetchris on January 12, 2022, 06:51:18 PMIt just sounds like a guilty conscience, every time. "But how can I stop watching, he's a good comedian!"

Have to wonder if they'd claim "complex nuances" with an act in they didn't like in the exact same circumstances. Don't see many claims that actually the teen girls Chris D'elia was chatting up over Snapchat are of legal age in several states for one thing...

I do understand how we internalise art that had a big impact on us can become a big part of how we see ourselves and the world. I was, and still am, a huge Bill Hicks fan but even I'm able to see that his material belonged to a different time and context. Heck, I knew a guy who was a massive Lostprophets fan. They were his gateway into rock and meant a lot to him at the time. But Ian Watkins offences have rendered that whole period something you just don't mention anymore without heavy caveats.

With Louis CK, I feel let down and a bit embarrassed about my former self who would defend his jokes about slurs on the basis of artistic freedom and ironic commentary. No matter what his intentions were, his audience is still massively white straight and male. Was he challenging prejudices or reinforcing them? That's a question I asked myself after a while and I wasn't sure of the answer.

Quote from: Pdine on January 12, 2022, 06:27:19 PMHah! yeah!

Innit tho. *long slow slurp from a drink while staring at you*

Zetetic

Quote from: Pdine on January 12, 2022, 12:36:53 PMYeah I can see that. The curing cancer thing is interesting because it highlights how much this is a problem that's at its worst in 'art'. If someone came up with a cure to cancer, patented it, and then was exposed as some kind of abuser or creep, no-one would realistically suggest boycotting the cure.
There might be some discussion about how handle their future employment and more complicated discussions beyond that if their work involved or depended on their abuse.

(See the discussions about HeLa and other longstanding cell lines.)

Zetetic

(Also commonly discussed along vaguely similar lines - Nazi research on hypothermia. A large part of the point here though is that the ethical failings translated to significant failings in the work itself, rendering a lot of the output bollocks.)

Hobo With A Shit Pun