Christmas Arguments

[Kelvin]

Nothing major, but I did have a few moments of tension over political topics; my dad making a throwaway joke about trans people being "confused", which he must have known would annoy me. And my Nan and parents all talking about young people treating clothes as too disposable, which I probably over-reacted to, but which annoyed me enough to say "What would a bunch of old people know about how young people spend their money?"

I've definitely developed a shorter fuse and less reasonable tone about political subjects as a result of how the Corbyn era panned out.     

[shoulders]

It's also age, at least for some people. Realising that if you can't speak your mind now, then when?

[Kelvin]

It's also age, at least for some people. Realising that if you can't speak your mind now, then when?

I'd have always expressed my opinion, though. I was never shy about that. It's more that I see red when these topics are brought up in real life now, which a few years ago I wouldn't have - I'd have engaged in debate a lot more and tried to make a more reasoned argument. Now I instinctively hear those "grown up" voices as the most toxic in the room and something snaps pretty quickly.   

[Buelligan]

It's a sad but inevitable consequence of being stitched up like a kipper by a pack of cunts.  I suppose (depending on who your family are), the best we can do with it is to attempt not to paint all old people - or whatever group - with the same brush.

On the Corbyn stuff, the other night I was chatting to my beloved brother about this -

In tears at David Baddiel's brainworms here

https://twitter.com/TheIDSmiths/status/1473605575745449984

Laughing my arse off, I was.  And he said to me, in all seriousness, that I shouldn't laugh about Baddiel because some people that hate him hate him for antisemitic reasons.  Like that's the only possible reason you can find Baddiel dislikable and risible.  I said nothing, just asked him how he felt about Baddiel's mocking of Jason Lee and we moved on to other things.

I love my brother like no other but still, I felt that irritation, the après Corbyn outrage if you like.  The lies and propaganda that was spun to destroy Corbyn by the Establishment, destroyed a lot more than the simple hope of having a country or even a world, run for the good of its people.  Indeed it did.

[Zetetic]

It's bizarre how the trans issue is so important to a bunch of middle aged/old people who probably rarely even encounter any trans people anyway. They only give a shit because the internet tells them to yet they'd bleat on about "the right to their own opinion/freedom of thought" etc. until the cows come home, seemingly unaware this isn't something that wouldn't have crossed their free minds if it wasn't a social media hobby horse. Are they that fucking bored?

It's precisely because it's completely irrelevant to them that it's so engaging to some people - it's much easier to hold strong views, free of any moderation by practicalities, if you don't actually have to worry about their implications.

The best topics for signalling ideological commitment are ones that a) you can't really do anything about and b) don't personally affect you.

[Crenners]

The best topics for signalling ideological commitment are ones that a) you can't really do anything about and b) don't personally affect you.

Damn, that's cold. 😂😂😂

[Sonny_Jim]

Can't imagine a Christmas where we don't raise a glass to the dead. Kinda feel like this approach is more healthy tbh.

I usually raise the toast to 'absent friends', so it covers anyone still alive who couldn't make it and anyone who's carked it.  First Christmas's without someone you usually have around is weird, so maybe just give them a pass.

I did find ages ago a audio cassette tape my mother had recorded of us opening our presents on Christmas morning, I must have been about 5-6 at the time.  I'd been given a fire truck or something so there's about 40mins of this electronic siren going off intermittently, after which you can hear my Mum telling my Dad:

"I'll distract him with a mince pie, you go and take the batteries out.  If he notices just say that it's broken and we'll get it fixed"

[Buelligan]

It's precisely because it's completely irrelevant to them that it's so engaging to some people - it's much easier to hold strong views, free of any moderation by practicalities, if you don't actually have to worry about their implications.

The best topics for signalling ideological commitment are ones that a) you can't really do anything about and b) don't personally affect you.

Yes.

[Mobbd]

I love my brother like no other but still, I felt that irritation, the après Corbyn outrage if you like.  The lies and propaganda that was spun to destroy Corbyn by the Establishment, destroyed a lot more than the simple hope of having a country or even a world, run for the good of its people.  Indeed it did.

This is precisely -- precisely -- how I feel. And it's too much in both scale and complexity to articulate unemotionally when confronted with some ill-informed or flippant remark from a relative. Sigh.

When people lament how "everyone is at each other's throats these days" and I wonder about my position in the brew-ha-ha, what my red lines or triggers might be and what the source of them might be, what you have just described here is it in a nutshell.

[Mr_Simnock]

I usually raise the toast to 'absent friends', so it covers anyone still alive who couldn't make it and anyone who's carked it.  First Christmas's without someone you usually have around is weird, so maybe just give them a pass.

I did find ages ago a audio cassette tape my mother had recorded of us opening our presents on Christmas morning, I must have been about 5-6 at the time.  I'd been given a fire truck or something so there's about 40mins of this electronic siren going off intermittently, after which you can hear my Mum telling my Dad:

"I'll distract him with a mince pie, you go and take the batteries out.  If he notices just say that it's broken and we'll get it fixed"

Reminds me of this

[shoulders]

Partner's Grandad came out with some recycled line about the evils of Home Working he had read in the Daily Mail (think of the poor sandwich shops, basically) but you could tell his heart wasn't in it, so I made do with pointing out we now shop locally more often with independent businesses, we go into the centre anyway as that's where most of the stuff is, and are both living well working from home with more hours available in the day.

Could have gone further about the after work options, clubs etc there used to be in the 60s and 70s and if pushed told him to shut his final lung up the doddering smoked his sen to near death right wing cunt but as he didn't push things that got left on the side.

[LynnBenfield69]

Got no family in the UK so spent Christmas with the wife and mates, not even particularly close ones. As usual the party dwindled down to just me and whoever else likes drinking.

Also as usual the subject of Corbyn came up, and even while I'm wary of bringing it up myself these days I do quite like going in to bat for ol' Jezza. For them, it always comes down to the same talking points - he's unelectable/un-pragmatic(?!), he's the biggest anti-semite since Hitler, he loves terrorists blah blah blah blah. When cornered, centrists seem to always revert to sub-Daily Mail bullshit. Or I demolish one of their arguments and they suddenly lose interest in the topic.

I never cease to be amazed by the brain rot that has infected these otherwise intelligent, thoughtful people I consider friends. Probably why I have no real friends.

[Buelligan]

I never cease to be amazed by the brain rot that has infected these otherwise intelligent, thoughtful people I consider friends. Probably why I have no real friends.

You should definitely watch this then -

In tears at David Baddiel's brainworms here

https://twitter.com/TheIDSmiths/status/1473605575745449984

[thenoise]

What do you hope to achieve by getting fired up and "debating" people about Corbyn, trans rights, etc? Has anyone changed their opinion after this treatment? The more didactic you are the more reasonable they feel, after all, they get their opinions from the BBC with its famous "balance" (is Corbyn dangerous or an idiot? YOU decide).

I don't have an answer, my Dad talks entirely in twitter length aphorisms now, I have to leave the room. We spent so long worrying about the effect of social media on young people we forgot about the effect on the old.

[itsfredtitmus]

LADIES DIARROHEA

[Crenners]

The best topics for signalling ideological commitment are ones that a) you can't really do anything about and b) don't personally affect you.

Still can't get over this RRR tier shit.

[Buelligan]

Slow night tonight?

[shoulders]

We spent so long worrying about the effect of social media on young people we forgot about the effect on the old.

Ouch, that's painfully true.

Mutton to the slaughter

[Buelligan]

Made me laugh too.

[TrenterPercenter]

What do you hope to achieve by getting fired up and "debating" people about Corbyn, trans rights, etc? Has anyone changed their opinion after this treatment? The more didactic you are the more reasonable they feel, after all, they get their opinions from the BBC with its famous "balance" (is Corbyn dangerous or an idiot? YOU decide).

I've had quite a bit of success talking to people about Corbyn, I wouldn't say I've debated people but one of the consequences of the propaganda against Corbyn the man has made the space for some compromising and even support for some of the ideas he was laying out.

A lot things go into the mix here with #teamCorbyn and #teamBoris being the additives but not the entirety of the final drink.

The trans stuff is a bit different as there is a low base regarding trans rights that needs to be improved and secured.  Most rights and progressive socio-political paradigms come about not because they are good or righteous, but because they are reasonable and rational, hence why there is such an appetite for some people to make them seem unreasonable and bizarre.  The trick is not to play into these narratives, remain firm but empathetic, understanding but clear on the non-negotiables.  Earning respect (often begrudgingly) from your enemies has always been an effective powerplay in the changing of discourse.

[TrenterPercenter]

Still can't get over this RRR tier shit.

I laughed.

[Crenners]

I laughed.

👊

[LynnBenfield69]

I should have been clearer, I never look forward to having an argument about Corbyn but if someone goads me I feel obligated to stand my ground. I'm fully aware I'm unlikely to change anyone's mind, in fact more often I walk away thinking 'this person who I otherwise like thinks I'm a cunt'. Small price to pay I spose.

[Ferris]

👊

👊

#rrr

[Zetetic]

Still can't get over this RRR tier shit.

Do you think I'm wrong or that this is just a facile claim? (Or possibly that I'm failing to recognise how it applies to my own utterances?)

[Crenners]

Do you think I'm wrong or that this is just a facile claim? (Or possibly that I'm failing to recognise how it applies to my own utterances?)

No, I think you're absolutely spot on. I said it's RRR tier because I've often felt the exact same thing reading online pontification.