Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial

[Dex Sawash]

What happened to the man who replaced Depp in 21 Jump Street?

[Mister Six]

I'm not #TeamAmber by any means, I think it's highly likely she's a manipulative bully, but I can acknowledge a double standard if there is one.

Isn't this the key issue though? I'm not up on the ins and outs of all this, but the picture that seems to be being painted is of Heard as the dominant partner and primary aggressor, using her status as a "weak woman" to get sympathy, and Depp as someone who is lashing out against the abuse.

I think a lot of people have encountered lying fucks who manipulate the system and the people in it to keep the upper hand - not just romantically, either. This kind of thing is, from what I gather, common in bullying among girls. And there are toxic managers who treat their employees like shit, safe in the knowledge that HR/local laws will protect them.

And even if they haven't encountered such people, the recordings of Heard call into question all claims that she is making. She says he abused her, but then she's been recorded mocking him for saying he'll go to the authorities to report her abuse. How can we trust that she's telling the truth?

Most people think of themselves as being "good guys" and even the people they lash out against as deserving it. From that POV it's easier to see Depp as "like me": a troubled soul who did some bad things because he was trapped in a long-term, emotionally manipulative and abusive relationship.

[Darles Chickens]

Amber Heard has a stupid name.  Guilty as fuck.

[Catalogue of ills]

Amber Heard has a stupid name.  Guilty as fuck.

I followed her once. Down to Greeece, on holiday.

[druss]

I followed her once. Down to Greeece, on holiday.

Ha, very good.

[TrenterPercenter]

This kind of thing is, from what I gather, common in bullying among girls. And there are toxic managers who treat their employees like shit, safe in the knowledge that HR/local laws will protect them.

Yes because women/girls are humans just like anyone else hence why reductionist approaches to labelling anyone that mentions this as misogynists or changing the subject to rape and femicide has been so utterly depressing for the last decade.   

That being said you can see how this Heard stuff will be/is already being jumped on by MRAs as evidence of the sexually alluring manipulative female archetype (no doubt the Guardian has already got a series of submissions on the counter absolutist narrative for clicks on this from its columnists).  The thing is, is to not reduce people down to their characteristics, even if you think you are the arbiter of all morals, what you should talk about (And many of my good lefties do so I might add) the conditions and environments that shape and forge cultures for groups to become abusers or be abused in.

A case in being I've seen loads of people now going on about Amber Heards mental health and how she has borderline personality disorder, well OK what happened to her then? BPD is not a nice condition to have and is often based in abuses/aspects of attachment in children an individual has faced but no one seems to give a shit about any of that.

[bgmnts]

That stupid Blur reference has had me smiling all day. Well done Darles Chickens.

[Catalogue of ills]

That stupid Blur reference has had me smiling all day. Well done Darles Chickens.

This is the thanks I get.

[bgmnts]

Oh fucksake sorry!

[Catalogue of ills]

Oh fucksake sorry!

Ha, no worries at all, I was already aware of being one of the most forgettable people on CaB, which suits me fine.

[Mister Six]

A case in being I've seen loads of people now going on about Amber Heards mental health and how she has borderline personality disorder, well OK what happened to her then? BPD is not a nice condition to have and is often based in abuses/aspects of attachment in children an individual has faced but no one seems to give a shit about any of that.

It's a question that gave me pause in the Glinner threads too. He's a horrible cunt BUT his self-destructive behaviour is clearly the product of a troubled mind that is itself a product of a troubled past BUT he's an adult choosing to be the worst piece of shit imaginable on a daily basis...

Where do you draw the line with personality disorders; where does responsibility begin and end? We're products of environment and brain chemistry, and if you subscribe to certain theories of physics, everything we do is essentially preordained. Can Amber Heard be blamed for being an abuser, or is it the fault (potentially) of her parents - and what if they were abused in turn, on and on back through history?

[Zetetic]

I guess the question is "Why do you care about responsibility and blame?". What's the end that you have in mind with using these things?

(And I don't think that "personality disorders" are particularly special, really. The pragmatics of those terms boil down to things that are often much less about something particularly unusual about the person, and as much about the happenstance of interactions with them.)

[Zetetic]

This is more about Jess Phillip's utterances than @Mister Six's, but I increasingly think that treating responsibility as some sort of finite substance that you have to carefully dole-out in the right proportions (rather than something that emerges in multiple contexts, according to those contexts and particular purposes) leads you into all sorts of mistakes.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

but I increasingly think that treating responsibility as some sort of finite substance that you have to carefully dole-out in the right proportions leads you into all sorts of mistakes.

This forms a closed circuit with attributing all interpersonal conflict or abuse to "power imbalance". As if the problem is imbalance or disharmony, and we can solve things by getting back to an original or untainted balance that existed prior to conflict. Individuals should take responsibility and stop being arseholes, basically.

"culture", "power" we can be more precise than this.

[Twit 2]

ITS A TRICKY BUSINESS

[Mister Six]

I guess the question is "Why do you care about responsibility and blame?". What's the end that you have in mind with using these things?

Fairly essential in a court case, no?

And in the Glinner example, it raises the question of the limits of reprimanding him for cunty behaviour. To what extent is he in control of his actions (or are any of us, for that matter), and therefore to what extent are the consequences visited upon him - ostracism, career collapse, having me and other CaBbers laugh at him for being such a useless fucking tool - justified?

[Noodle Lizard]

I think there's something properly wrong with Glinner as well. But with things like BPD/NPD, it's kind of difficult to absolve them entirely unless they're at least somewhat capable of acknowledging that's what's going on, which is of course not easy since it's notoriously difficult to get a proper diagnosis unless you're actively seeking help for your behaviour. It's even more difficult when you factor in that denial and blame-shifting are some of the primary symptoms of those personality disorders. You're left wondering what's a "personality disorder" and what's just an unempathetic arsehole. The symptoms are very similar.

Unfortunately, BPD or not, people like Heard are not rare. They tend to come off as very "exciting", free-spirited and unusual, and that's the trap that lures some people in. They're also very good at playing the game in front of others, often going out of their way to make grand gestures to make them seem "good", or limiting the amount of information others can know about them (at least without consequence), but they often don't sustain many particularly close friendships themselves for similar reasons. But a few people on the outside of a relationship like that are able to see them for what they are instantly, and they will make every effort to distance you from those people and/or constantly devalue you until you're emotionally dependent on them.

[popcorn]

Just going off the Youtube comments sections for these videos, there is a really grotesque bias in favour of Depp.  Even if the clip's highlighting Depp's worst behaviour, every comment is just hammering the same lines about Heard being to blame. There's a total blindness to acknowledge any fault on his part. Not sure if that's because he has such a hardcore fanbase, or a more general sexism, or what - but its really stood out to me watching the clips on Youtube.

I have a feeling it's a reaction to the last several years of high-profile #metoo busts, which put a lot of men on edge. The possibility that one of these women might turn out to be a horrible manipulative BITCH!!!! is just too exciting not to pursue. As if it might settle the matter.

[jamiefairlie]

Unfortunately, BPD or not, people like Heard are not rare. They tend to come off as very "exciting", free-spirited and unusual, and that's the trap that lures some people in.

Never, ever, fucking ever, trust people who come across like that. Run away and keep away as they toxic fucking nightmares.

[druss]

I still don't quite understand why Johnny Depp hired a clinical psychologist to make a diagnosis on Amber Heard, after their marriage, and Heard agreed to it.

I thought the psychologist came across well but I don't really get why Heard was like "sure, lets spend 12 hours together".

[Zetetic]

Fairly essential in a court case, no?

In this one? Not really as far as I can tell - I don't think the claims of defamation, on either part, turn on any sort of framework of responsibility for their actions.

[shoulders]

It's a question that gave me pause in the Glinner threads too. He's a horrible cunt BUT his self-destructive behaviour is clearly the product of a troubled mind that is itself a product of a troubled past BUT he's an adult choosing to be the worst piece of shit imaginable on a daily basis...

Where do you draw the line with personality disorders; where does responsibility begin and end? We're products of environment and brain chemistry, and if you subscribe to certain theories of physics, everything we do is essentially preordained. Can Amber Heard be blamed for being an abuser, or is it the fault (potentially) of her parents - and what if they were abused in turn, on and on back through history?

I've not been reading this thread as the Depp/Heard seemed from the outside to be a particularly vulgar example of people's private lives being thrust onto us, so therefore one I was actively ignoring.

However, I just wanted to remark on what an interesting few pages of reading this has been (the above being one post that helped spark that), much better thread than I expected.

[Zetetic]

In this one? Not really as far as I can tell - I don't think the claims of defamation, on either part, turn on any sort of framework of responsibility for their actions.

Actually, this isn't 100% true because - if I understand correctly - some of this is bound up with claims of self-defence (but that emphasizes how tightly bound "responsibility" is to the specific question you're trying to answer).

[Zetetic]

And in the Glinner example, it raises the question of the limits of reprimanding him for cunty behaviour. ... to what extent are the consequences visited upon him - ostracism, career collapse, having me and other CaBbers laugh at him for being such a useless fucking tool - justified?

I think "justified" is an interesting choice of words, because often "justifying" is something you do to be allowed to keep doing something or not to be punished for having done something - which really only applies to the laughing at Glinner.

But I guess what you're really getting at is whether it's all deserved, based in some idea of justice ultimately disconnected from either deterrence or rehabilitation. (Edit: Arguably in opposition to them, given how Glinner's consequences drive a vicious circle.)

Which I think I mostly don't care about these days.

And then I realise that's not entirely true, and there are people who spend years calmly making the world worse for millions of people, and I do have some deep feeling that these things must be ... paid back in kind. (And clearly some of that is tied up with the idea that they've acted very deliberately.)

(Edit: Regarding people with terrible emotional regulation and who have only terrible strategies for getting what they want from people, terrible at "manipulating" them - who are the kind of people who attract "personality disorder" labels - I'd suggest that the consequences of these things are punishment in themselves.)

[Mister Six]

And then I realise that's not entirely true, and there are people who spend years calmly making the world worse for millions of people, and I do have some deep feeling that these things must be ... paid back in kind. (And clearly some of that is tied up with the idea that they've acted very deliberately.)

Well, yes.

[Dr Rock]

All the bad people in the world, I don't have any urge for them to be punished. I just want them to stop doing bad things. Might be because I lean to the idea that they mostly or wholly can't help themselves.

[Zetetic]

Well, yes.

But I think looking for deliberation is a bit different to worrying whether something was a (sufficiently free??) choice or not.

(But then, perhaps, my looking for deliberation is also bound up with my beliefs about deterrence - i.e. that it is possible in some cases, but mostly not for any of the things that our hideous justice system tries to apply it to.)

[canadagoose]

Amber Heard is an anus I would not live in. Johnny Depp isn't my cup of tea either, a bit chaotic and fragile. Can't wait until all this guff is over.

[JamesTC]

Dan Wootton is on Amber Heard's side, so I am fully behind Depp.

[TrenterPercenter]

(Edit: Regarding people with terrible emotional regulation and who have only terrible strategies for getting what they want from people, terrible at "manipulating" them - who are the kind of people who attract "personality disorder" labels - I'd suggest that the consequences of these things are punishment in themselves.)

Hmmmm, I think the thing is condemn the behaviour and not the individual.  Having an idea of BPD as "an illness" that pervades every action and thought isn't how MH works and impairments on functioning are on spectrum.  We use this in sentencing with the whole concept of diminished responsible. 

I don't think it fair to say to a victim a persons mental health is punishment enough for their perpetrator, it's only when we can into the realms of psychosis that can really get somewhere approximating that.  I don't think Heard (if her diagnoses stack up) is incapable of not realising the damage and harm her behaviour would do to someone else, her impaired ability to emotionally regulate herself is an explanation of her behaviour not an excuse.