Doctor Who - Series 12, Chibnall's Revenge

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The looping rooms was a nice idea, but felt very half arsed at points, with the characters literally walking out, and then walking back in via the same door a few moments later. They didn't even have the same momentum, it was obviously the actors just walking in and out.

It was especially strange they chose to have the Doctor doing this while everyone else in the room had given up.

Switch it - have the companions running around madly after the Doctor has already given up and is calmly trying to figure it all out (without verbalising every guff of a thought, though).

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Logopolis, where the Master's TARDIS lands as a police box inside the Doctor's.

Also it happens in one of the free 2010 Adventure Games, in the 11th Doctor's first TARDIS.  Exiting through one of the doors just pipes you back through one of the other doors back into the console room. 

Not sure if they ever included that in an episode.  I have some memories now that may be false of Amy or Clara trying to leave the console room but not being able to.  Maybe in one of those short DVD-only bonus scenes?

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That raises an important question - did Graham just hold it in all night? At his age?

He's been spending a lot of off-screen time gaining life lessons from HS Art threads.

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Putting link in spoiler tags as the url asks a question that might be spoilery if true.  The link contains a teaser picture for the finale and a question:

Spoiler alert

https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/18/doctor-finale-teaser-pics-leave-ryan-peril-join-cybermen-12261670/

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If true that would mean

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Danny Pink, Bill Potts and Ryan Sinclair have been converted into Cybermen

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in recent years.  The

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only

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companions to be

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converted into Cybermen

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, and all of them happen to be

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black

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.

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Which is nice

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.

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The Picture of Dolores Gray

Delorean Grey would be better for time travel fans.

[Deanjam]

Putting link in spoiler tags as the url asks a question that might be spoilery if true.  The link contains a teaser picture for the finale

Won't have to worry about losing his personality.

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I'm still a little curious whether there's any change in sexuality... bound to come up at some point, I'd have thought.

Always annoyed me that the writers of the post-2005 show have consistently lacked the imagination to write the Doctor as asexual.  I know they nowadays frame the pre-1989 Doctor's lack of sexuality as a product of the time it was written, but I always found it comforting and inspiring as my own asexuality came to my attention.

There seems to be an urgency now to ensuring different types of sexuality are represented, and Moffat has been interviewed saying it would be terribly sad if the Doctor wasn't a sexual being because it's normal to have sexuality.  Well the Doctor's status as absurdly ancient alien outsider is a perfect opportunity to maintain an asexual role model is it not?

Annoying.

[olliebean]

You can say that over and over again if you like but it wouldn't magically make it any more true.  Spurious jump-scares and atrocious dialogue and exposition do not create brilliance.  I stopped watching after 20 minutes and almost didn't bother going back to it until I learned that it was building towards

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the lone Cyberman

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stuff.

It picked up once

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the Cyberman

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stuff was happening but to suggest it'd be a standout episode in a Moffat series?  Somebody's been boiling your wires mate.

Quite. My reaction to the early part of the episode was largely in line with the butler/servant/whoever he was who kept rolling his eyes in the background.

[Spoon of Ploff]

Always annoyed me that the writers of the post-2005 show have consistently lacked the imagination to write the Doctor as asexual.  I know they nowadays frame the pre-1989 Doctor's lack of sexuality as a product of the time it was written, but I always found it comforting and inspiring as my own asexuality came to my attention.

There seems to be an urgency now to ensuring different types of sexuality are represented, and Moffat has been interviewed saying it would be terribly sad if the Doctor wasn't a sexual being because it's normal to have sexuality.  Well the Doctor's status as absurdly ancient alien outsider is a perfect opportunity to maintain an asexual role model is it not?

Annoying.

Interesting point.. but it would seem strange to me that a Timelord's sexuality/asexuality should be fixed across re-generations when gender and race are not.

[Norton Canes]

THAT'S BETTER

In the stratosphere compared to the rest of the season's 13th Doctor era's flat structure.

[Kelvin]

You can say that over and over again if you like but it wouldn't magically make it any more true.  Spurious jump-scares and atrocious dialogue and exposition do not create brilliance.

I never said it was brilliant, or anything like that. I said it was the only episode under Chibnall that felt like it would have stood out in a RTD or Moffat series. In other words, of the 4-6 good episodes in a RTD or Moffat series, I felt like this could have been part of that pile - albeit probably at the good not great end. 

It picked up once

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the Cyberman

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stuff was happening but to suggest it'd be a standout episode in a Moffat series?  Somebody's been boiling your wires mate.

Again, that's not what I meant. It wasn't better than the best episodes in a Moffat series, but for me it was certainly more engaging than many of mediocre / filler episodes of that era - better than every similarly Gothic Gatiss episode, for example.

I'm not saying it was an all time classic, I'm saying it was simply good, which I would not say about 90%+ of the Chibnall era, and probably at least 40% of the RTD / Moffat eras. 

[Mister Six]

I'd definitely agree with that.

[Cerys]

My prediction is that

Spoiler alert

Ryan will be in danger of being cyberised, but will be saved by Graham in an act of heroism, resulting in Graham's death and Ryan's decision to stop mucking about with space and time.  With Yaz left as the only companion, maybe she'll blossom.

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So there's that.

[Malcy]

Chibnall bigging up the finale.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-02-19/doctor-who-finale-rollercoaster/

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I never said it was brilliant, or anything like that. I said it was the only episode under Chibnall that felt like it would have stood out in a RTD or Moffat series. In other words, of the 4-6 good episodes in a RTD or Moffat series, I felt like this could have been part of that pile - albeit probably at the good not great end. 

Again, that's not what I meant. It wasn't better than the best episodes in a Moffat series, but for me it was certainly more engaging than many of mediocre / filler episodes of that era - better than every similarly Gothic Gatiss episode, for example.

I'm not saying it was an all time classic, I'm saying it was simply good, which I would not say about 90%+ of the Chibnall era, and probably at least 40% of the RTD / Moffat eras.

Sorry for the overreaction.  I was confused about your use of the term "standout episode" in the context of an RTD or Moffat series.

[weekender]

My prediction is that

Spoiler alert

Ryan will be in danger of being cyberised, but will be saved by Graham in an act of heroism, resulting in Graham's death and Ryan's decision to stop mucking about with space and time.  With Yaz left as the only companion, maybe she'll blossom.

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So there's that.

Yeah, and my prediction is that Toberman will come back as the CyberLeader for his faction.

[Alberon]

My prediction is that

Spoiler alert

Ryan will be in danger of being cyberised, but will be saved by Graham in an act of heroism, resulting in Graham's death and Ryan's decision to stop mucking about with space and time.  With Yaz left as the only companion, maybe she'll blossom.

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So there's that.

I think Chibnall is

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unable to think of them separately so they'll all leave together

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.

Ryan

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won't be turned into a cyberman, if only because Cole is unable to portray the wide range of emotions needed for that particular role.

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[Mango Chimes]

[Cloud]

Ryan

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won't be turned into a cyberman, if only because Cole is unable to portray the wide range of emotions needed for that particular role.

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Genuine LOL

[Small Man Big Horse]

Apparently season 13 isn't due to begin filming until September - https://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2020/02/17/doctor-who-series-13-begins-filming-in-september-2020-so-when-will-it-air/ - so it might not air until Autumn 2021.

[Norton Canes]

OK. So confident am I that Chibnall's concluding episodes won't be up to much, I'm doing this right now:

1. The Haunting Of Villa Diodati
2. [The Rest]

...what? Oh go on then, if we must...

2. Can You Hear Me?
3. Praxeus
4. Nikola Tesla's Night Of Terror
5. Orphan 55
6. Spyfall 1&2
7. Fugitive Of The Judoon

[Malcy]

The Timeless Children synopsis

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"This is going to hurt." In the epic and emotional series finale, the Cybermen are on the march. As the last remaining humans are ruthlessly hunted down, Graham, Ryan and Yaz face a terrifying fight to survive.

Civilisations fall. Others rise anew. Lies are exposed. Truths are revealed. Battles are fought.

And for the Doctor — trapped and alone  —  nothing will ever be the same again.

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Moffat & Gatiss talk about the Ruth Doctor.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-02-19/doctor-who-jo-martin-canon-steven-moffat-mark-gatiss/

[Mister Six]

Did they do that interview just to promote Who? Do they have any Sherlock or Dracula stuff to promote that it might have been tagged on the end of, or were they caught at a BBC do and made to talk about a show they're no longer involved in? If it was just to talk about Chibbers' Who, that really is awfully good of them.

[Thomas]

'Really important rules include the Doctor picking up a gun and shooting innocent people. Or forgetting that he or she is a Time Lord and deciding he or she is human. That would be wrong. That's just blowing apart the show.'

Cheeky. Moffat's funny, and I quite admire his slightly reckless, rock 'n' roll attitude towards canon and fandom and 'the rules', even if led it to a few episodes I don't particularly like (see: Hell Bent/half of Sherlock).

I think he's also very charismatic when it comes to lying about Doctor Who (see the saga of reasons for the split series), so we might never know what he really thinks about anything. But it's nice to see them pipe up. I agree with Gatiss that the TARDIS emerging from a grave is a chilling, exciting image, but the beats of the episode around it were just so perfunctory. You have to imagine the flesh onto the skeleton.

I think a well-seeded, thrillingly plotted version of the Season 6B theory could be brilliant. But with some of these episodes you might as well simply read the Wiki article and imagine the drama yourself. Well done on the Tesla and Villa Diodati eps, though, Chibs, and for casting Sacha Dhawan. The Master's back too soon, but he's marvellously performed.

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I don't want season 6B to happen, especially with Chibnall as showrunner.


Look forwards, not endlessly backwards.  Newcomers to the show are going to find these details impenetrable.  Save them for the 60th anniversary!

[Old Gold Tooth]

I think he's also very charismatic when it comes to lying about Doctor Who (see the saga of reasons for the split series), so we might never know what he really thinks about anything.

Yeah both he and Davies are admirably upbeat and positive about all incarnations of Doctor Who (minor criticisms aside, and these are often said with a healthy dollop of good humour) and I imagine they're just happy to have the show still being made, even if it's quality has dipped from their eras.

That said I'd absolutely love a Writer's Tale-style book from Moffat one day as the Davies book is absolutely brilliant. Definitely need to give that a re-read.

[Thomas]

I don't want season 6B to happen, especially with Chibnall as showrunner.

Look forwards, not endlessly backwards.  Newcomers to the show are going to find these details impenetrable.  Save them for the 60th anniversary!

Fair enough, and I agree with you about saving Big Moments of Inward-Looking Plot. I've suffered an attack of optimism and goodwill, because I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the last ep.

Yeah both he and Davies are admirably upbeat and positive about all incarnations of Doctor Who (minor criticisms aside, and these are often said with a healthy dollop of good humour) and I imagine they're just happy to have the show still being made, even if it's quality has dipped from their eras.

That said I'd absolutely love a Writer's Tale-style book from Moffat one day as the Davies book is absolutely brilliant. Definitely need to give that a re-read.

I'd love a Moffat book as well. Along different lines, if you've not read his Target novelisation of The Day of the Doctor (I imagine a lot of people here already have, I was just late to the party), I recommend it thoroughly and immediately. He could have cashed in with a simple retelling, but it goes above, beyond, backwards, and all around.

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Yeah I'd love a book from Moffat about his time as showrunner.  It's surely inevitable but I don't know whether it'll be as candid or honest as it needs to be.

[Kelvin]

Moffat's Who was vastly more "impenetrable" and backwards looking than Chibnall's. Outside of the iconic stuff like Daleks, UNIT and Cybermen, they almost never reference previous stories, characters and continuity now.

Plus, Moffat was much more into his convoluted, time twisting, relatively deep sci-fi concepts - great for big nerds like us, not so much the casual viewer, I suspect. Chibnall's show is incredibly straight forward story-telling. Putting writing quality aside, I can't really see how anyone could watch the Chibnall era and conclude that this is when it became too alienating for the casual fan. If anything, this is when it became too watered down and light on series continuity for a nerdier fan like me.     

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Yes but it's becoming more and more of a problem purely because the show is now so old even in its post-2005 incarnation.  Audiences seeing "series 12" in the listings will be put off just because of that, in a way that wasn't such an issue in the Moffat era.  Moffat anyway didn't have the luxury of starting afresh in quite the same way - after only four series plus some specials it was right to maintain continuity with the RTD era, and then it did get too convoluted with series 6 for casual viewers, and very continuity-heavy from the 50th anniversary onwards.  But my point isn't that the show hadn't become too continuity-heavy under Moffat (it had), it's that Chibnall absolutely needed to put a stop to the trend.  With Murray Gold's departure the final overt strands of connection to RTD were gone, and Chibnall should have repeated the gestures of season 7 from 1970 and series 1 from 2005:  token references and cameos aside, these series needed no former knowledge of the show.

Series 11 needed to be a fresh start, to lay its own seeds and essentially present as a brand new show.  Series 12 could then build on the seeds of series 11 and expand into its own new world.  But too quickly we are being sucked back into inward looking continuity stuff from the last 56 years.


Think back to the classic era when you could tune into a new season and you wouldn't be thinking "this is season 18" or whatever; it would simply be "Doctor Who".  You would be watching new episodes of Doctor Who; that's it.  As the number of post-2005 series hurtles upwards, the showrunners need to start getting the balance right or there will be no new viewers coming in.  And for a show that's meant to be aimed partially at 8 year olds that is surely a problem?