Lee and Herring rewatch

[Wacky Homemade Badges]

The Q&A was super interesting. Marber is more deserving of their ire than I expected! The details of their (and Peter's) being messed about re OtH / TDT are pretty grim. It turns out Rich really held back on the remonstrations when Iannucci was on RHLSTP. But then he doesn't like to burn his bridges, I think.

It was a very, very long time ago. Lee's obvs worked with Armando extensively on Comedy Vehicle and Time Trumpet since then. I think they were poorly advised by Avalon as much as anything - while they made big contributions, they didn't co-create On The Hour with Morris and Ianucci. I think making that the position would have been unfair to the latter two (as the initial audio release was set up to, and did, demonstrate).

[Magnum Valentino]

They worked with Armando even earlier, he was a performer on Lionel Nimrod after the OTH/Day Today situation.

[madhair60]

This sounds great! @madhair60 do you have the liner notes from the Fist DVDs in there? I could provide series 1 at least, if Mobbd was to move ahead and formatting.

No, but those would be great to have. I have the series 2 set as well

[Mobbd]

This sounds great! @madhair60 do you have the liner notes from the Fist DVDs in there? I could provide series 1 at least, if Mobbd was to move ahead and formatting.

I'm happy to do it. Maybe not for a couple of weeks because I'm a bit snowed at the moment but happy to do it. If there's any other typography perverts on the board, I'm happy to collab too.

[madhair60]

very open to collab - there are myriad errors in the text, and accidentally repeated stuff

[spaghetamine]

What's the origin of L & H's beef with Marber?

[Mobbd]

What's the origin of L & H's beef with Marber?

Might I suggest that you read the Q&A in this very thread? Just open the spoiler box and Ctrl+F Marber.

EDIT: Here, this post. https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=108224.msg5612454#msg5612454

[Magnum Valentino]

Commentaries for episode 3 (no studio rushes for this one unfortunately):

Rich and Stew -

T.A. Kevin Eldon -

[lauraxsynthesis]

Episode 3!
The Pied Piper sketch was very enjoyable and John Thompson was terrific.

There is a Kevin Eldon commentary for this episode, but he didn't really bother which was too bad. I'd have been interested to hear general stuff about his involvement with L&H etc. He says he doesn't remember doing the warm up for FoF.

I spotted Carol Cleveland in the second Captain Oates sketch. Ten years later she was interviewed when she left Stewart's gig in Brighton in disgust.
https://www.stewartlee.co.uk/90s-comedian/90s-comedian-brighton-argus/

And there was Sue Perkins as a plant in the audience yay.

[Magnum Valentino]

Think that Sue Perkins bit is lifted from the pilot if I remember right

[Shaxberd]

Today we're on FoF series 1, episode 3, although keener (and less hungover) forum members than I have already got to it!

Here's the link to the episode if you need it.

Now I'm off to get a massive coffee and a bacon sandwich.

[Stinky Lomax]

Shaxberd, would you be happy for whoever gets here first on a Sunday to post what episode we're on and a link to the relevant video from that YT account (https://www.youtube.com/@ukstand-uptvandwararchive1387/search?query=fist)?

[Stinky Lomax]

Just watched it. First half is a bit weak, the neighbourhood watch and pied piper sketches don't really go anywhere and the light entertainment feel of the show's presentation is exacerbated by the gimp chasing pantomime stuff. It feels like something Bobby Davro would do. But then in the second half you get Captain Oates, arse rubbing and Peter, and at the end everything ties together - imaginary friends, the school photo, the mice, Peter, all interacting with each other - while there's a second layer of jokes flashing up as split-second graphic overlays. It all feels pleasingly dense and has that Adam & Joe-ish feel that I wish they'd leant into a bit more. I find myself wanting to do fan-edits of these to take out the irritating interstitial clips and the weaker sketches, replace lo-fi versions of the 'why don't you' screens and give it all a bit more of a 'hacked together on VHS tapes at home' feel.

Minor notes - first appearance of Jo Unwin, I think? Second and final appearance of David Wolstencraft in a minor role, who would go on to create tv show Spooks. And Ian Gelder - apparently he was in earlier episodes too, but I just noticed him in the Captain Oates tent - Kevin Eldon's future fellow Game Of Thrones actor (and was also briefly in Psychoville).

[dissolute ocelot]

Yeah they admit in the commentary it's a weaker episode. The welcome-to-the-neighbourhood sketch had a lot of good people (Rebecca Front, Jo Unwin, etc) but felt very generic/un-L&H and didn't really go anywhere: aside from Eldon being incongruous, its style was very non-descript and it didn't raise any big laughs. The gimp was crap too (ooh a Pulp Fiction reference, nobody else did those; thanks Quentin for all the shit unfunny gimps).

But the mouse stuff was good (I had a friend who caught a mouse in a humane trap and eventually released it in the ground floor hallway of the building where he lived because he didn't want to put it outside in the cold - he did live on the 3rd floor so maybe he felt that was far enough.) The Pied Piper is an intrinsically funny character who doesn't appear enough in British comedy, but also felt very Lee and Herring as part of my childhood along with dance settees etc (Age 10 I played a rat in a musical production of the Pied Piper of Hamelin, which was the end of my stage career).

The audience stuff at the end was good too - I did wonder how long it took to film with all the hallucinations. The show did turn all Lee and Herring in the end, it's just a shame it took a while for the show to get going, as Stinky Lomax says.

[Mobbd]

I spotted Carol Cleveland in the second Captain Oates sketch. Ten years later she was interviewed when she left Stewart's gig in Brighton in disgust.
https://www.stewartlee.co.uk/90s-comedian/90s-comedian-brighton-argus/

That's very, very funny indeed:

Stewart Lee was over the top, spending most of his time on stage talking about vomit.

The co-writer of the controversial show, Jerry Springer The Opera, even talked about vomiting into the arse of Jesus Christ.

Lee is supposed to be a ground-breaking comedian and writer, but I found little entertainment value in his material.

It was not funny. It was a sad and deliberate attempt to see how far he could go.

This was ultimate sick humour, and if anyone thought it funny, they must be sick as well.

He joked about the IRA, whom he described as "gentlemen bombers" and the recent London bombings.

[Stinky Lomax]

That Brighton article does seem very angry with Lee and I wonder whether Cleveland's "quip" was ironic and she wasn't offended at all, just popping out for a cigarette or something.

(Age 10 I played a rat in a musical production of the Pied Piper of Hamelin, which was the end of my stage career).

Heh, at around the same age I played a townswoman (woke madness, surprised I didn't turn trans) in a non-musical school production of it! I had one line, which was to say about the mayor "Ooh, isn't he pretentious?" I didn't know what pretentious meant and assumed it was positive, so I played the line as if I were swooning. Took a fair few rehearsals for Miss Bateman to notice and explain it to me.

[Shaxberd]

Shaxberd, would you be happy for whoever gets here first on a Sunday to post what episode we're on and a link to the relevant video from that YT account (https://www.youtube.com/@ukstand-uptvandwararchive1387/search?query=fist)?

Three weeks in and I've already lost control of this thing!
But in all seriousness, that's fine, have at it.


Moving on to thoughts!

I don't have nearly as many notes on this as the previous couple of shows. I think I might have enjoyed it more if I hadn't seen the pilot as a fair chunk of it came from that - as did the other two but somehow more of this felt like bits I'd seen before.

Some things, though:

- the gimp bit might be played out but I have always had a soft soft spot for the trope of BBC props men in long brown overcoats appearing to sort out 'unplanned' bother. You don't see those much these days, eh?
- love Eldon in the neighbours sketch, reminiscent in appearance of something from a Weimar-era silent film
- continuing with "ooh, that takes me back", Woodpecker cider! I recall it being orange, chemically and unusually sweet. I don't miss it.
- The pied piper sketch is a standout, particularly for how John Thomson plays it, but I also enjoy Rich's silly little dance when they go into the flashbacks, especially the second time when he elbows Stew to encourage him to join in.
- I didn't care for the Oates sketches personally, maybe because the kind of passive-aggressive behaviour it's mocking is still really frustrating to watch even when it's the butt of the joke.
- Unlike Woodpecker, I don't remember Banana Bubbles at all, but I can easily imagine the fake banana flavour they must have had. Good to note that breakfast cereals were a minor recurring L&H fixation before TMWRNJ.
- Combining the rabbit/imaginary friend stuff that was present in the pilot with Richard's mouse-related was a clever combination of what must have originally been items scripted at different times, I like how they did that.
- A little Nostradamus reference at the end as they get in their crates this week... foreshadowing?

Again, only one gaudy shirt from Richard so I think I will save my roundups for the end of the series and then rank them or something. I can tell you I'll be ranking this one low, did not care for it at all.

[Mobbd]

I liked the neighbourhood watch sketch. "Come on mister s00p, eat up". And "Buying Ian some more soup I shouldn't wonder. Is that another bottle? Oh dear!"

Rich should have played the main guy in that one though. Bet he was supposed to but it couldn't be scheduled or something.

All I remembered about the Captain Oates stuff was "Oh, Captain Oates!" but the line I should have remembered was "you're the best at going to the South Pole." I bet there's a shared lineage with "We're so good at television" from The Armando Iannucci Shows but I can't be bothered to investigate.

I also like how Oates is in his South Pole gear and all bedraggled from adventure at the dinner party, even though Scott is in black tie. Like he's a cartoon or something.

Pied Piper: I like that they're playing themselves in the sketch. Also "Shut up Stew, you weren't even there!" Also "twentieth century Clapham reality."

Use of the phrase "made a smell" for farting recurs again in Comedy Vehicle.

Quinlank and Peter were both better than ever. It felt like I could really hear Rich and Stew's disparate voices in the Quinlank. And Peter's bit about imaginary friends, starting with the arm and then forgetting it was great.

I can easily imagine the fake banana flavour they must have had.

Who are you, John Lennon?

[lauraxsynthesis]

Joe Cornish said "made a smell" on the Adam & Joe 6 Music shows. I'd forgotten it was previously on this. Is L&H the origin of it I wonder?

[Mobbd]

Joe Cornish said "made a smell" on the Adam & Joe 6 Music shows. I'd forgotten it was previously on this. Is L&H the origin of it I wonder?

I don't know for sure but I suspect it was an old person saying at the time like "moon on a stick."

[Pink Gregory]

They've explained that and other things as 'it's things that our grans used to say'

[Mobbd]

They've explained that and other things as 'it's things that our grans used to say'

Moon on a stick, yes, but 'made a smell'?

[madhair60]

can confirm my old mum says that

[markburgle]

A clutch a Fall-member surnames in the credits this week - I spotted a Pritchard, a Wolstencroft, a Watts and a Smith. Stew would be pleased.

I liked the Oates stuff, I enjoyed the gimp as I'm just liking the general gag of something being wrong with Rich's crate, and "I have to go and do a thing" rings a bell as one of the many half-assed lines that later showed up in AIOTM (maybe it was fresher at this earlier stage of history but the audience didn't seem to think so).

Surprised Lee let that Yoko diss get in there.

- Unlike Woodpecker, I don't remember Banana Bubbles at all, but I can easily imagine the fake banana flavour they must have had.

[The Giggling Bean]

Was there ever any reason why Simon Munnery never popped up in any of these? It seemed they had spots for most of their associates, but no sign of him.

[Magnum Valentino]

Here's the sleeve notes for episodes 1-3 from the 4-disc series 1 set, spoilered as they're massive. I'll do the remaining shows on their respective Sundays.

Intro:

Spoiler alert

THE FIST OF FUN RUSHES SURVIVE

Well, a fair amount of them do anyway. That any amount of raw footage still officially survives from a never-repeated BBC comedy series made sixteen years previously is pretty astonishing. That someone has taken the decision to gather all up that videotape and present it 'as is', as extras on a DVD release, is surely no less extraordinary.

Regular attendees of TV comedy recordings will recall the sessions for Fist of Fun in 1995 and 1996 to be among the most entertaining of the period, with the between- takes amusement often rivalling that of the scripted material itself. For those who never made it, the surviving tapes for Series 1 - basically amounting to three of its five studio sessions - provide a good illustration of what you missed.

No attempts have been made to sweeten the contents of those tapes into special featurettes' or 'blooper reels'. Aside from the original VT recording break jumps-cuts, all material is presented here in 'real time', unedited.

A slice of comedy history preserved forever, warts and all, you'll see the set-ups, the pre-rec cues, the retakes, and floor manager Terry Pettigrew running around the studio trying to hold it all together. You'll see Peter Baynham remaining firmly in character as lifestyle expert 'Peter', even between takes. You'll even see occasional snatches of 'titting about' from regular warm-up man Kevin Eldon in a rather fetching leather jacket.

By equal measures giggly innocents and cynical curmudgeons about the whole process of making TV, the accepted notion of 'out-takes' would often be dissected and shredded into a thin white paste by Stewart Lee and Richard Herring even before 'Oh No That'll Be The TV Bloomers From Hell'-type shows could grab them. As the series progressed, running gags about the recording process began to develop. "You have to do it twice, for the people watching in black and white...." Richard would explain prior a second take, "You have to do it three times, for the repeats..."

"We have to do that joke every week too," Stewart would add.

As with all comedy recordings, there are the usual polite requests for the audience to 'laugh just as much as you did the first time' during retakes, but the duo soon learned the benefit of throwing in extra gags for each subsequent take, ensuring that the routines were always kept fresh and enjoyable for those attending (despite clearly causing all manner of headaches for producer Sarah Smith during editing).

With the final shows being so tightly-packed and choppily edited (the format providing the ability to jump - via a furious Steve Bendelack 'sting' - to the next item at almost any given moment) it's also interesting to see that same material presented in a warmer, more laid-back fashion. The familiar pre-recorded sketches are also here prior to being tightened-up (and in one famous case, actually censored) for broadcast, with extra bits throughout. And yes, for those expecting more traditional DVD extras, there are 'deleted sketches.'

It all goes on a bit, obviously. But hey, "You have to do it four times... for the video release."

[close]

Episode 1:

Spoiler alert

Fist of Fun - Show 1 / Show 2 (first half) (No Studiotapes Found)

Recorded at BBC TVC, 31 March 1995

Show 1 broadcast 11 April 1995; Show 2 broadcast 18 April 1995

The first studio session took place on Friday, March 31st 1995, during which the entirety of Show 1 and the first half of Show 2 were recorded (the latter after a quick wardrobe change for Stewart and Richard, so as not to spoil the magical illusion for the little kiddiwinkies). Sadly, no raw tapes of this session have been found and are presumed junked or wiped.

The first two studiotapes presented on this disc actually both date from the second studio session on Friday, April 7th 1995, during which the remainder of Show 2 and the entirety of Show 3 were recorded. A particularly interesting session to watch in light of some behind-the-scenes office politics which took place earlier that day...

[close]

Episode 2:

Spoiler alert

Fist of Fun - Show 2 - Studio Tape

Recorded at BBC TVC (Studio 4), 7 April 1995

Show 2 broadcast BBC2 18 April 1995


RICHARD: Bros went to Cheddar school as well, you know.
STEWART: And they got fucked over as well didn't they...!

After some mute, unexplained images of historical figures (plus one of Norris McWhirter), this 30 minute tape kicks off in comparatively unspectacular fashion with four minutes of retakes of one line from Show 1 (this would have been the last opportunity for such a pick-up shot to be recorded as that premiere show would need to be ready for broadcast four days later). The retaken line - recorded before the audience had actually arrived – edited seamlessly into the show, although a subliminal view of Richard's Easter eggs is still detectable in the background. As the BBC Duty Log might say, the person responsible should have been sacked!

With the audience in place, the second half of Show 2 is captured to tape in about half an hour. Along the way we're treated to slightly longer version of Show 2's Gall-ery (boasting an unused bit of the intro and lingering on a couple of artistic contributions later cut for time) and several takes of Richard presenting an Easter Egg to the old lady in the audience.

However, the most exciting section on this tape is the full version of the Easter parable, Jesus Came Knocking, which not only boasts a few extra visitors (including Kevin Eldon heading the "Eczema Sufferers Society") and extra lines here and there, but also - for the first time ever - includes the well-deserved smack in the face Stewart Lee's 'Good Man' bestows upon Alistair McGowan's Jesus in all its uncensored glory. Snipped before broadcast by BBC comedy exec Jon Plowman over genuine fears that people could 'lose their jobs' if it was transmitted, the violent slap - and the utterly delighted audience response which accompanies it – is arguably worth the price of this DVD in itself.

Stuff to look out for between takes include some sneaky refs to their manager keeping all the money they earn from the series "in a special bank account", some worries about swearing due to Mr and Mrs Herring being in the audience ("I'll be in trouble when I get home...") and some musing on how much it cost the BBC to mis-use the footage of Thunderbirds for the Loneliest Job sequence.

As the tape cuts off, and the duo emerge from their crates, Rich explains to the audience that at this point, "Stew gets beaten in by some people from last week's sh..." - referring to a snipped sub-plot about policemen planting cocaine in Stewart's crate and then attacking him. Actually intended for Show 2, but almost certainly recorded during the previous week's session along with the other police-related material.

[close]

Episode 3:

Spoiler alert

Fist of Fun - Show 3 - Studio Tape

Recorded at BBC TVC (Studio 4), 7 April 1995

Show 3 broadcast 25 April 1995

    RICHARD: They didn't like that 'Imagination' sketch, did they Stew?
STEWART: (Shakes head) They're not meant to though.
    RICHARD: That's true. You're not meant to like it. Aaaahh!

A recording break. While Stew and Rich pop off for a second wardrobe change in preparation for Show 3, the audience is treated to some warm-up from Kevin Eldon, and - after a brief technical hitch – a bit of particularly contentious VT in the form of the first big unbroadcast sketch, Sick Supermodels. This is now available to see in full for the first time.

Originally a radio item, broadcast on the Lee and Herring Radio 1 show (22/08/94), it perhaps serves as a reminder that some things - particularly comedy sketches which paint rather gruesome or sickly images – are better on the radio.

Showing the VT to the audience as a standalone item rather sums up the feelings of all those involved. Unhappy with how the sketch had turned out, it had been the subject of a big blazing 'artistic disagreement' between the duo and producer Sarah Smith shortly before the recording had commenced over whether or not it should actually stay in the show. The fall-out from this argument led Stewart to later apologise to readers of the Fist of Fun pages on the 'BBC Networking Club' internet site, suggesting his studio performance had been adversely affected by his being 'tired and emotional' (although this sourness is barely noticeable on the studio floor, even in unedited form).

The sketch is greeted by the inevitable audience squeals of "Eeeurgh!" at the pustules and mucus on display, but nevertheless gets a fairly positive reaction. There are also some nice performances, particularly from Alistair McGowan, throwing himself sideways into a Jean-Paul Gaultier-ish caricature, not to mention Mel Giedroyc and Sue Perkins (who'd also appeared in the original radio version). 90s comedy mavens will also spot Bryonie Pritchard, Ricky Grover and Carl Forgione in other roles.

The audience is far less impressed by the second big deleted sketch, Imagination, a "dark" VT insert which involves two cold, callous parents (Doon MacKichan and lan Gelder) setting out to stifle their son's imagination from an early age. Dating from Radio 4's Lionel Nimrod's Inexplicable World (05/11/92), this uncomfortable TV interpretation suffers from casting a child actor reacting tearfully to the emotional and mental abuse (rather than Stewart putting on a vaguely child-like voice), somewhat shifting the audience's attention away from the excellent comic wordplay and onto his distress.

"Who thought that was worse than the 'Supermodels' sketch?" giggles Richard as the audience titters uneasily in its seats. In the event, both sketches, and their respective studio intros, were cut 'as a compromise'. Since the studio intro to Sick Supermodels doubled as the debut appearance of the Julia Sawalha shrine, the latter routine was postponed and performed as part of Show 4 instead. The premise of the sub-Victorian mother and father meanwhile would be revisited a second time, somewhat more successfully, in the duo's final Radio 1 show (20/12/95), with the characters recast as Simon Quinlank's parents.

To fill the gap left by the removal of these two sketches, the Nosey Neighbours sketch from the pilot show was dusted off and used instead, slotting nicely into the studio material about 'making friends' with no need for a specially-recorded intro - although the VT was reshown to the audience during the session for Show 4 in order to capture a fresh laughtrack.

The Imaginary Friends section is particularly interesting in its unedited form as we get to see the original actress in the role of the audience member talking about Michael Faraday – rather than Sue Perkins, whose performance of the same material in the May 1994 pilot show was patched seamlessly over the top before broadcast. A masterstroke of footage-matching and editing, marred only slightly by the continuity confusion caused by Danny O'Brien being in shot  - in different seats and at alternate levels of stubble growth - for both recordings.

As if having two full deleted sketches on this disc wasn't enough, we also get a hat-trick in the form of the snipped third section of Captain Oates. Quite why this was cut isn't clear - it goes down very well with the audience - and the fact that Oates is still wearing his South Pole explorer clothing while in the throes of sexual congress is an added delight.

The extended technical faffing-about as regards setting up the sudden appearance in the audience of extras in rabbit and mouse costumes is lightened somewhat by Richard's unnecessarily simplified exposition (amusingly, the Shakespearean / Manga acting styles are specifically referenced between takes. In the edit, these would be briefly namechecked via onscreen captions). "Do something a bit more scary," asks floor manager Terry of the rodent extras during a cutaway. "...given that you're in giant mouse costumes, which obviously places certain parameters around it!" adds Stewart, gleefully.

A great example of the benefits of chucking in unscripted gags during retakes occurs as they get back in the crates, with Stewart's glib reference to The Glam Metal Detectives (the final episode of which had aired on BBC2 the night before this recording) getting a great big laugh. Somewhat more amusing in light of the revelation that one member of that show's alumni had also appeared in a VT sketch during this session.

As an added bonus, the Steve Bendelack-edited end-sequence is presented full-screen here whereas in the transmitted shows it was squashed into an inset to make room for the credits and listings guides to zoom by.

The team got a break from the weekly studio sessions on 14 April 1995 as this fell on an Easter Good Friday. Recordings recommenced on 21 April 1995, by which time the first two episodes of Fist of Fun had been aired by the BBC and audiences perhaps had a clearer idea of what to expect.

[close]

[Mobbd]

Herring just listed this on eBay. An original one. Amazing.



He writes of it:

The Fist of Fun badge is a real rarity. I don't know how many were originally made, but I doubt many of them have survived 30 years. I do remember being the one to write "I like Fist of Fun" on a piece of paper (as badly as possible) to create the template for this handmade looking badge and we gave them out at gigs and shows and maybe posted them to people who wrote to us???

It was all part of a low key attempt to advertise the show in an underground fashion. We had an army of children who listened to the radio show who'd do our bidding (luckily we used this power for good unlike other entertainers) and I hoped that we could make the show a huge success by getting people to put up postcards in newsagents windows or wearing homemade merch. It didn't work, obviously and though we did have a website and an email address, which was pretty revolutionary, I think we were a few years too early to become an internet phenomenon. Things might have been very different if we'd been in a position to really make sure of the world wide web. Fist of Fun was ideal fodder for the internerds.

Sally Phillips proudly wore her own "I like Fist of Fun" badge and unsurprisingly perhaps a man at a bar who had not heard of our show assumed it meant something else and propositioned her. So in the end the badges did more to promote fisting than they did to promote our show. But I suspect the badge that I am selling this week will be sold for more than it cost the BBC to print up however many badges we initially did.

https://richardherring.com/warmingup/28/5/2024/index.html

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186463046959

[Mobbd]

Fist of Fun was ideal fodder for the internerds.

That's us, you guys! Hi Rich!

[Shaxberd]

It's a beautiful day and I'm up bright and early for Fist of Fun Series 1, Episode 4. Have at it!

[Magnum Valentino]

I'll get the commentaries, rushes and sleeve notes uploaded this afternoon cool dudes 😎