Suzanne Moore quits The Guardian [split topic]

[bgmnts]

Yeah but certain groups are legitimately oppressed by the society we live in. Straight white blokes are not.

[Mister Six]

Unless those straight white blokes are trans, or disabled, or poor, or outright homeless. Or if they don't fit into traditional perceptions of masculinity.

See how identity politics warps your perception of the world?

All oppressed groups should seek to listen to one another's problems and help one another to build a more just, fair, empathetic and understanding world. Identity politics is the antithesis of this because it encourages gatekeeping and "them vs us" mentalities. It's how those in power stay in power.

[Bazooka]

Yeah but certain groups are legitimately oppressed by the society we live in. Straight white blokes are not.

What about straight white women? 

[jobotic]

They're women. Do you follow?

[bgmnts]

I dont think economics factors into identity politics, I think the simple idea is that on equal footing, certain people are oppressed based on the colour of their skin or ethnic origin. And its easier for people nearer the top of the pile to think it's silly to be wrapped up in identity politics as it doesn't affect our lives. I'll never ever be stopped and searched in the street no matter how poor I am will I?

Just my two pence.

[jobotic]

I think you're exactly right. Identity isn't the be all and end all, and class is obviously the biggest factor in economic inequality - but chviek is right about the demographic of those  who dismiss it as unimportant or a distraction.

"Gay" identity politics for example, doesn't create "them and us", homophobia does.

The Millwall fans booing help those in power, not the people they are booing.

[TrenterPercenter]

the demographics of people complaining about identity politics is easy to determine (as is the demographics of people using it for nefarious ends)

I don't think it's always as simple as this; though in the main I suspect it is true.  I think reasonable criticisms are valid and even useful.  For every 9 out of 10 bemoaning identity politics as some lazy attack 1 is seeing legitimate problems or ways to improve.

[Bazooka]

They're women. Do you follow?

Are straight white women oppressed?

[idunnosomename]

by the time I've finished w

[TrenterPercenter]

Yeah but certain groups are legitimately oppressed by the society we live in. Straight white blokes are not.

Yes they are; just not in the same way a clear example being up until relatively recently a straight white bloke could not get a diagnosis of anorexia because they didn't have a period they could miss.

Patriarchal elitist societies oppress everyone but a small group for whom the oppression is beneficial, sure there is a question of urgency, but this is where the oft cited male suicide comes in as it is clear data of something going very wrong in that particular group in that particular way (as mentioned this is not to exclusion of other groups problems or needs).

[chveik]

All oppressed groups should seek to listen to one another's problems and help one another to build a more just, fair, empathetic and understanding world. Identity politics is the antithesis of this because it encourages gatekeeping and "them vs us" mentalities. It's how those in power stay in power.

yeah fair enough. it does require more work to find a common goal between people that have different needs/class interests/worldview than just tweeting. I think traditional social democratic parties have a lot of to answer for, by just expecting people to vote for them without including them in the process, and then easily betraying them. the 'us vs them' mentality seems more prevalent in the US though, from my perspective there are quite a lot of instances where people from different oppressed groups fight against the same problem.

I don't think it's always as simple as this; though in the main I suspect it is true.  I think reasonable criticisms are valid and even useful.  For every 9 out of 10 bemoaning identity politics as some lazy attack 1 is seeing legitimate problems or ways to improve.

I wouldn't disagree.

[TrenterPercenter]

I dont think economics factors into identity politics, I think the simple idea is that on equal footing, certain people are oppressed based on the colour of their skin or ethnic origin. And its easier for people nearer the top of the pile to think it's silly to be wrapped up in identity politics as it doesn't affect our lives. I'll never ever be stopped and searched in the street no matter how poor I am will I?

Yes. When I was at college I was told in very clear terms I was being kept an eye on and was regularly searched because of the estate I came from.

I don't think that as a white lad that my experience in this sense is worse than a black lad, it isn't, racism is different but when I was sofa surfing at 16 i lived with a black friend and his family and we bonded over some of the similarities in our problems.  It's a bit of a blanket statement to say impoverished people are not discriminated against; you seem to be detaching poverty away from a lot of things in order to make this statement.

[bgmnts]

Yes. When I was at college I was told in very clear terms I was being kept an eye on and was regularly searched because of the estate I came from.

I don't think that as a white lad that my experience in this sense is worse than a black lad, it isn't, racism is different but when I was sofa surfing at 16 i lived with a black friend and his family and we bonded over some of the similarities in our problems.  It's a bit of a blanket statement to say impoverished people are not discriminated against; you seem to be detaching poverty away from a lot of things in order to make this statement.

So you think if you were a black lad from an estate it'd be the exact same? I am dubious.

I'd be interested in hearing your experiences of being stopped and searched and harassed by the police though.

[Mister Six]

I dont think economics factors into identity politics, I think the simple idea is that on equal footing, certain people are oppressed based on the colour of their skin or ethnic origin. And its easier for people nearer the top of the pile to think it's silly to be wrapped up in identity politics as it doesn't affect our lives. I'll never ever be stopped and searched in the street no matter how poor I am will I?

Just my two pence.

You're equating progressive identity politics with identity politics itself, but identity politics is an umbrella term under which progressive identity politics falls, as does Lawrence Fox-style conservative/alt-right identity politics. As does working class vs middle class vs upper class (however those classes are defined in various countries) - so yes, economics does factor in.

The stop and search example shows one problem with identity politics: the footing isn't equal. It seems natural to assume that a black woman in the US had it harder than a white man. But what if the white man is an uneducated poor guy from the most collapsed town in Kentucky, and the black woman is Malia Obama - and you drop them both in Manhattan?

Malia can get her millionaire ex-president dad to buy her an apartment in Tribeca and will be able to walk into just about anywhere in the city and find a job. The white guy will end up homeless.

That's the danger of identity politics, especially progressive identity politics that discounts class and financial axes of oppression and privilege.

A better route is intersectionality, which calls for each person to be examined as an individual in their specific context. But that doesn't lend itself to snappy twitter putdowns or make it easy to decide what "good politics" is while dismissing all other viewpoints as being from outside the identity (thus disposable), so it's not as popular.

Here, for example...

So you think if you were a black lad from an estate it'd be the exact same? I am dubious.

The point is that it wouldn't be the exact same. Poor black kid faces additional challenges in a uni context to poor white kid. But that doesn't erase the white kid's challenges, nor should it preclude class solidarity, which some forms of black identity politics ignore.

[JaDanketies]

Perhaps one of the problems is that when you talk about the discrimination and prejudice you faced as a young white man or teenager, those who care about systematic oppression in society seem fast to tell you to shut up, or belittle your concerns. But the fash welcome you with open arms and a sympathetic ear. And they don't tell you to be pissed off at capitalism, they tell you to be pissed off at immigrants.

There are schools up around here that are 90% South Asian kids. The kids who go to those schools might spend 90% of their time in a South Asian community where they are not systematically discriminated against for being South Asian. When one of the 10% of white kids says something (on the internet) about being discriminated against cos they're a poor white person, they're not likely to get a fair hearing.

Agreed; intersectionality.

[bgmnts]

The pint is that it wouldn't be the exact same. Poor black kid faces additional challenges in a unit context to poor white kid.

That's the crux of it for me really.

[TrenterPercenter]

So you think if you were a black lad from an estate it'd be the exact same? I am dubious.

I don't think that as a white lad that my experience in this sense is worse than a black lad, it isn't, racism is different but when I was sofa surfing at 16 i lived with a black friend and his family and we bonded over some of the similarities in our problems.

I'd be interested in hearing your experiences of being stopped and searched and harassed by the police though.

Sure first off have you consider that having family members or friends that are not-white can mean you are targeted through association and suspicions of being a white person that hangs around with black people?

But here is an example for you I bought a car when at college at £500 banger from Portobello in Wolves for people that know it (a very impoverished place but all i could afford).  I bought it out of money I had saved because I started working at 16 (back when you could) and worked nights whilst doing my studies.  After about 2 weeks of driving it to college I was told by the security guard there that "people like me can't afford cars and that i must have stolen it" he then called the police and the police came and ran checks on my plates to see if it was stolen.  All in the college car park in front of lots of my peers.

[Buelligan]

That's the crux of it for me really.

Indeed.

[Mister Six]

Perhaps one of the problems is that when you talk about the discrimination and prejudice you faced as a young white man or teenager, those who care about systematic oppression in society seem fast to tell you to shut up, or belittle your concerns. But the fash welcome you with open arms and a sympathetic ear. And they don't tell you to be pissed off at capitalism, they tell you to be pissed off at immigrants.

Yes, and so much of the progressive identity politics crowd is eager to bleat "google it, it's not my job to educate you, I don't owe you my emotional labour" whereas the fascists will give you graph upon graph of decontextualised (or outright fabricated) "statistics" to win you over. Not to mention Google bringing up all kinds of dodgy stuff if you're trying to educate yourself on some of this stuff.

Too much of progressive identity politics is about peacocking on social media and accruing likes and shares for snappy putdowns. That's where the social cache is. And they'll drive away all kinds of interested parties to get that sense of superiority.

With the South Asian example, it is worth remembering (as I'm sure you do, but I want to make it explicit for others) that all kinds of oppression exists within those communities, and also that the communities exist within a wider, institutionally racist state, so things can change on the fly depending on who someone is and where they are at any given time - but again, intersectionality.

That's the crux of it for me really.

Unfortunately you've snipped off an important bit.

[Famous Mortimer]

There are, equally, lots of people who use discussions of identity to foster support between communities and do great work. Perhaps try and avoid weasel words like "too much of" and "so much of" when you're posting in a thread about someone who we hate for doing the exact same thing.

[bgmnts]

Unfortunately you've snipped off an important bit.

What's the difference between this and MRAs saying well we have it bad as well so lets stop with the identity politics?

[JaDanketies]

The thing with terfs is, and I guess with a few other allegedly-leftie bigots, is that they use the language of inclusivity and oppression to their own nefarious ends. So it's good to unpick the whole issue so we can untangle the haters.

[TrenterPercenter]

Yes, and so much of the progressive identity politics crowd is eager to bleat "google it, it's not my job to educate you, I don't owe you my emotional labour"

Or ask you for personal examples and then ignore them when you bother to give them as they don't suit the I bet you haven't got an example argument.

I mean I was at least expecting a "the security guard isn't the police" argument so i could then tell the story of having my car boot (same car) ripped apart at 11pm in Ladywood by the police because they thought I had drugs in there.

These are exceptions to the rule but they happen and it is silly to convince yourself that they don't (often because someones own privileges make them ignorant to it)

[jamiefairlie]

Too much of progressive identity politics is about peacocking on social media and accruing likes and shares for snappy putdowns. That's where the social cache is. And they'll drive away all kinds of interested parties to get that sense of superiority.

Yes. After many years as an activist I became utterly disillusioned due to this attitude, which existed well before social media. Too many on the left focus on being popular in their peer group and making overwrought emotional outbursts about how unfair the world is and how it all needs to change. This includes categorizing anyone who disagrees as fascists or whatever.

The right however tend to focus on winning, regardless of how they appear or are demonized. Doesn't take a genius to work out why they win. They have dead eyed ruthless people on their side, whereas the left has genuine, decent, heartfelt but, ultimately, ineffective, unpredictable, unreliable and indisciplined flakes who value being right and taking the high ground over actually winning.

[Mister Six]

What's the difference between this and MRAs saying well we have it bad as well so lets stop with the identity politics?

Because it's not about "my problems cancel out your problems, STFU". It's about "we all have problems, let's share and discuss them and see if we can be mindful and work out ways to diminish one another's pain and problems".

There are, equally, lots of people who use discussions of identity to foster support between communities and do great work. Perhaps try and avoid weasel words like "too much of" and "so much of" when you're posting in a thread about someone who we hate for doing the exact same thing.

Yes, and those discussions are occurring in an intersectional mindset, not an identity politics one. Rather than getting pissy about my "weasel words", why not actually engage with my point?

[TrenterPercenter]

Yes. After many years as an activist I became utterly disillusioned due to this attitude, which existed well before social media. Too many on the left focus on being popular in their peer group and making overwrought emotional outbursts about how unfair the world is and how it all needs to change. This includes categorizing anyone who disagrees as fascists or whatever.

The right however tend to focus on winning, regardless of how they appear or are demonized. Doesn't take a genius to work out why they win. They have dead eyed ruthless people on their side, whereas the left has genuine, decent, heartfelt but, ultimately, ineffective, unpredictable, unreliable and indisciplined flakes who value being right and taking the high ground over actually winning.

Exactly this especially the bit bolded.

[chveik]

well I think this all tells much more about people's prejudices and how they think activists should conduct themselves rather than what the 'left' actually is (or should be). bit tired of the same circle arguments online, based on overgeneralisations (which I often partake in)

I mean it's a bit ironic given that leftists complaining about identity politics are also actively creating divisions instead of trying to understand others' point of view and finding some compromise. it won't happen on twitter obviously

[JaDanketies]

I'm happy to find the middle-ground, but if you think a statement like "the patriarchy is harmful to men as well as women" is laughable or offensive, then it's probably a non-starter. I would think the lefties we're talking about here aren't particularly willing to budge on their positions or understand why a straight white male might feel / be oppressed.

[Buelligan]

Did his mum ask him to tidy his room?

We know he's oppressed, how can we not?  Every time anyone's oppressed he brings it up.

[chveik]

I'm happy to find the middle-ground, but if you think a statement like "the patriarchy is harmful to men as well as women" is laughable or offensive, then it's probably a non-starter.

this particular statement is meaningless in itself so yeah I probably wouldn't bother with it.