Suzanne Moore quits The Guardian [split topic]

[TrenterPercenter]

well I think this all tells much more about people's prejudices and how they think activists should conduct themselves rather than what the 'left' actually is (or should be). bit tired of the same circle arguments online, based on overgeneralisations (which I often partake in)

I mean it's a bit ironic given that leftists complaining about identity politics are also actively creating divisions instead of trying to understand others' point of view and finding some compromise. it won't happen on twitter obviously

Not really, it's nothing to do with being on the left and everything to do with individuals and how they communicate online.

If you are a left-winger that disagrees with another left-winger on something and you feel that is a window of opportunity to humiliate and insult someone (usually where it hurts by implying their leftism is in question) then there are big similarities with what Naomi Wimborne-Idriss was saying in her video on DDN.

Of course that shouldn't limit discourse or tell lefties what to say; it just means that there should be some unspoken rules of engagement and etiquette in how people talk to one another (they already exist really).  This actually should play out much more in the environment that they occur in; people watching another poster wilfully bully or humiliate another poster should really step in as it is likely the audience being presumed complicit or they idea it is impressive to an audience that encourages the behaviour.

In a practical sense this is important for the left as it does need to identify who is trolling and who isn't - something that I don't think is that hard to do really but seems to go out the window when actual trolls disappear for a bit (and for sake of group dynamics for some people - another has to be created).  Everyone knows this, it's basic schoolyard behaviour.

[notjosh]

Surely the point of talking about 'privilege' is to help us understand how oppression is perpetuated in a systemic sense, rather than as a blunt tool to categorise the experience of every individual that falls into a certain group.

To assume that any given straight white man, for example, has no idea about real hardship is pretty ignorant when you consider what that person's history might entail: hidden disabilities, mental health problems, childhood abuse. The fact that their life might have been worse if they had been born into another minority group is hardly going to be a comfort to them is it? When I see a homeless white men crying in despair because no one will give him the time of day my first reaction isn't to tell him to check his privilege.

[Buelligan]

I think you're entirely right.  There probably are some people who think that all straight white men live perfect joy-filled lives but I've never met one.  I have met people who think that all black people are drug dealers and all women are bitches though.

[chveik]

Not really, it's nothing to do with being on the left and everything to do with individuals and how they communicate online.

If you are a left-winger that disagrees with another left-winger on something and you feel that is a window of opportunity to humiliate and insult someone (usually where it hurts by implying their leftism is in question) then there are big similarities with what Naomi Wimborne-Idriss was saying in her video on DDN.

Of course that shouldn't limit discourse or tell lefties what to say; it just means that there should be some unspoken rules of engagement and etiquette in how people talk to one another (they already exist really).  This actually should play out much more in the environment that they occur in; people watching another poster wilfully bully or humiliate another poster should really step in as it is likely the audience being presumed complicit or they idea it is impressive to an audience that encourages the behaviour.

In a practical sense this is important for the left as it does need to identify who is trolling and who isn't - something that I don't think is that hard to do really but seems to go out the window when actual trolls disappear for a bit (and for sake of group dynamics for some people - another has to be created).  Everyone knows this, it's basic schoolyard behaviour.

sorry, I don't think we are talking about the same thing. my post was under yours but I wasn't replying to it.

I do know what you mean though, sadly.

[Mister Six]

I think you're entirely right.  There probably are some people who think that all straight white men live perfect joy-filled lives but I've never met one.  I have met people who think that all black people are drug dealers and all women are bitches though.

You haven't spent much time in so-called progressive circles (especially online) then.

Some years ago I went to the university where Mrs Six was doing her master's degree to bring her some dinner. It was the evening time and a group of men and women had just finished a discussion in a public area about how to deal with street harassment (either as a victim or as an ally calling it out). As I was walking past the group were breaking up for coffee and a chat, and two guys, one Asian, one Middle-Eastern, jumped up and started following me across the room, strumming a guitar and singing to me.

This was at quite a stressful and shit time in my life and I didn't much like the idea of being subjected to the exact same kind of harassment they were supposedly against. I took them to task, and they apologized and said they didn't mean anything by it, but it became apparent that they thought that as a straight cis white man, I was some kind of avatar of the bad people they had been talking about/experienced themselves. The idea that I was just an individual having a bit of a shit day and that this was not some kind of karmic fair turnabout didn't occur to them until I complained.

Anyway, it turned out all right, but people like that are out there, even if you personally have never encountered or noticed them, and the attitude (however whimsically expressed) is toxic and counterproductive to building a community of allies to create and maintain social justice.

[Buelligan]

Heheh.  On the online time line, I take it you jest.

On the college thing, if you think those kids were oppressing you, that's fine.  From what you've described and that's all I have to go on, two people following you through a room you've entered strumming guitar, in a uni halls, doesn't seem that critical or oppressive.

I have spent a fair old while in the actual world.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

Not to belittle experiences, but harassment like that is 100% par for the course for people that aren't cis-het white-men

[Mister Six]

Yeah, I know. That's kind of key to the whole interaction.

Heheh.  On the online time line, I take it you jest.

On the college thing, if you think those kids were oppressing you, that's fine.  From what you've described and that's all I have to go on, two people following you through a room you've entered strumming guitar, in a uni halls, doesn't seem that critical or oppressive.

I have spent a fair old while in the world.

No, I don't think they were oppressing me, I think their behavior demonstrates a fundamental dehumanisation at the heart of identity politics - to see a white straight man as an Oppressor, and therefore fair game for mocking, rather than as a human being who happens to have been granted a considerable privilege by society.

What if I was autistic and uncomfortable with social interaction with strangers? What if I was a victim of assault (of any kind) who didn't like people approaching me from behind? What if I'd just had such a shit day that I was on the verge of years and didn't need to deal with such an interruption to my thoughts?

They were enacting the same dynamic that they were ostensibly fighting for the same reasons that the street cat-callers do: they wanted to make a target feel awkward and bad, and feel some power in a social exchange - and because their had identified a member of another identity group that was "fair game".

[Buelligan]

You seem to be projecting an awful lot onto a couple of proto-adults and extrapolating the product into a theory of what?

A proof that everyone believes straight white men have perfect lives?

[Mister Six]

No. Try again. Maybe read all the words this time.

[Zetetic]

^^ That doesn't seem to be the conclusion, only that it can support othering and dehumanisation.

This is also true of politics that takes against, e.g. landlords, even if that's not on a basis of vaguely hypocritical prejudice regarding broadly unalterable unchosen attributes.

[Buelligan]

No. Try again. Maybe read all the words this time.

I'm sorry but what you wrote was responding to my assertion that I'd never met anyone that believed all straight white men lead perfect lives.  So, if what you're saying is nothing to do with that, perhaps you'd like to be more explicit.  And maybe, less rude.

[chveik]

You haven't spent much time in so-called progressive circles (especially online) then.

lol

[jobotic]

Thread's fucked then. They should all be called State of the Left.

[JaDanketies]

her substack is shit. Not quite as monomaniacal as Glinner's, it's 50% monomoniacal. Awful tripe though.

[Mister Six]

I'm sorry but what you wrote was responding to my assertion that I'd never met anyone that believed all straight white men lead perfect lives.  So, if what you're saying is nothing to do with that, perhaps you'd like to be more explicit.  And maybe, less rude.

Gosh, sorry to respond to your passive-aggressive mockery with rudeness. Hope that sentence there was in an appropriate tenor.

I used that as an indication that some, not all,[nb]As you have now suggested in lazy straw man hyperbolic fashion.[/nb] people think that straight white men lead "perfect, joy-filled lives" such that a spot of acoustic harassment is justified, despite it going against the very cause they had been trying to promote moments before.

Which is a product of dehumanising and othering, which can be products of identity politics (among other mindsets) and now I think we've come full circle.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

_{sorry i don't mean to be a little shit just these are so naff they make me laugh}

[JaDanketies]

100% encountered what Mister Six is talking about. More often than not online. Jess Phillips is a real world example, for instance kicking up a fuss about International Men's Day. And she's a media darling, evidencing that this attitude is normalised.

[jamiefairlie]

The problem with intersectional analysis is that it very quickly becomes almost infinitely complex as each individual feels they have the right to be recognized. accepted and respected for their unique personal blend of characteristics and challenges. This inevitably leads you into a navel gazing endless circular discussion which you can never exit as you can never satisfy everyone enough to get to any action.

As a contrast, imagine if the Brexit campaign had tried to really get to the heart of the all the different issues people had with the  idea of the UK being in the EU. They'd have splintered very swiftly as people realized they didn't agree after all. they were smart enough to realize that they had to keep the argument at such a high level that actual details were hidden and that's how they kept enough people on board to win.

The left used to have that with the class struggle and a clear focus on economic inequality and it can have it again if enough people would just accept that their particular priority is not going to get focus for the time being.

[Buelligan]

Gosh, sorry to respond to your passive-aggressive mockery with rudeness. Hope that sentence there was in an appropriate tenor.

I used that as an indication that some, not all,[nb]As you have now suggested in lazy straw man hyperbolic fashion.[/nb] people think that straight white men lead "perfect, joy-filled lives" such that a spot of acoustic harassment is justified, despite it going against the very cause they had been trying to promote moments before.

Which is a product of dehumanising and othering, which can be products of identity politics (among other mindsets) and now I think we've come full circle.

Don't project mockery on to me, passive-aggressive or otherwise.  The point I was making was in response to this post

Surely the point of talking about 'privilege' is to help us understand how oppression is perpetuated in a systemic sense, rather than as a blunt tool to categorise the experience of every individual that falls into a certain group.

To assume that any given straight white man, for example, has no idea about real hardship is pretty ignorant when you consider what that person's history might entail: hidden disabilities, mental health problems, childhood abuse. The fact that their life might have been worse if they had been born into another minority group is hardly going to be a comfort to them is it? When I see a homeless white men crying in despair because no one will give him the time of day my first reaction isn't to tell him to check his privilege.

Perfectly friendly.  Pointing out that no one (maybe someone but no one I've ever met or heard of) believes that straight white men never suffer.  Just that. 

So, again, stop projecting this aggro and bullshit on to me.  Ta.

[Mister Six]

Don't project mockery on to me, passive-aggressive or otherwise.  The point I was making was in response to this post

Perfectly friendly.  Pointing out that no one (maybe someone but no one I've ever met or heard of) believes that straight white men never suffer.  Just that. 

So, again, stop projecting this aggro and bullshit on to me.  Ta.

Sorry, I misread the tone of your posts. I apologise.

The problem with intersectional analysis is that it very quickly becomes almost infinitely complex as each individual feels they have the right to be recognized. accepted and respected for their unique personal blend of characteristics and challenges. This inevitably leads you into a navel gazing endless circular discussion which you can never exit as you can never satisfy everyone enough to get to any action.

...

The left used to have that with the class struggle and a clear focus on economic inequality and it can have it again if enough people would just accept that their particular priority is not going to get focus for the time being.

I've been in discussions in which it's worked out fine, but I guess it takes the right kind of person (not me, clearly) to guide it. In a lot of cases, economic inequality is entwined with issues like race, disability, gender, sexuality and so on (whether direct, as in you're black so you're frozen out of certain jobs, or indirect, as in right-wing groups prey on poor whites to stir resentment against other races) and I think you stand a better chance of forming a cohesive whole by acknowledging people's unique problems and relating that to economic inequality than by treating all these things as discrete elements and trying to make a case for why economic inequality should take priority over the BLM campaign or whatever.

[chveik]

The problem with intersectional analysis is that it very quickly becomes almost infinitely complex as each individual feels they have the right to be recognized. accepted and respected for their unique personal blend of characteristics and challenges. This inevitably leads you into a navel gazing endless circular discussion which you can never exit as you can never satisfy everyone enough to get to any action.

As a contrast, imagine if the Brexit campaign had tried to really get to the heart of the all the different issues people had with the  idea of the UK being in the EU. They'd have splintered very swiftly as people realized they didn't agree after all. they were smart enough to realize that they had to keep the argument at such a high level that actual details were hidden and that's how they kept enough people on board to win.

The left used to have that with the class struggle and a clear focus on economic inequality and it can have it again if enough people would just accept that their particular priority is not going to get focus for the time being.

I'm not sure you're well acquainted with the history of leftist struggle. 'intersectionality' has always existed, albeit under different names (take Toussaint Louverture for instance, being one of the first properly leftist leader). there's a great deal of difference between let's say BLM or organizations focused on the climate crisis and 'navel-gazing' which most of the time only concerns a subset of already very privileged people.

and of course by now we all know that copying the strategy of the right ends in total failure.

[jamiefairlie]

Oh well, as you were then. I'm sure it's all going swimmingly.

[evilcommiedictator]

As I was walking past the group were breaking up for coffee and a chat, and two guys, one Asian, one Middle-Eastern, jumped up and started following me across the room, strumming a guitar and singing to me.

As the great MLK said, "We shall sing to them on the beaches, strum our guitars on the land, and on the sea. We will never surrender, extrapolating whiteness on people having shit days"

[JaDanketies]

if you don't fall into this 'respect for people is a zero-sum game' shit then you can say it's wrong for a group of people to sing insulting songs about a stranger without any caveats or comparisons.

[chveik]

Oh well, as you were then. I%u2019m sure it%u2019s all going swimmingly.

of course it's not you big wally

[idunnosomename]

her substack is shit. Not quite as monomaniacal as Glinner's, it's 50% monomoniacal. Awful tripe though.

looks like someone put her on to grammarly at least

[Kankurette]

All these people bitching and moaning about identity politics - not necessarily you, Mister Six, I'm talking about stuff I've seen elsewhere - just come across like they think women, LGBT people, anyone who isn't white and the disabled should stop whining and get back in the closet/kitchen, tbh. Amazingly, it is possible to care about feminism, racism etc. and class. Not all working-class people are white. Marxist feminism is a thing that exists.

Or if you've seen black people telling Arabs they're not really oppressed in the US because they were never enslaved, or lighter skinned black people being told they're not really black by darker skinned black people, or seen middle-class black kids in New York making fun of desperately poor whites in Kentucky, or desperately poor whites turning to neo-Nazism rather than banding together with desperately poor black people in their area,[nb]Yes, white supremacy is identity politics too. "Identity politics" is a neutral term.[/nb] or physically disabled people telling mentally disabled people that they can't use the phrase "crippling anxiety" "because cripple is our word", or - pertinent to this thread - cis women erecting fences around the word "women" rather than inviting in trans women who are also likely to suffer abuse at the hands of cis men.

Now that I can agree with, as a feminist who is pro-trans inclusion and would like to see some solidarity with trans women rather than treating them as THE ENEMY. I also really, really hate language policing and the way the online disability community are obsessed with it. Using the word 'stupid' does not hurt me as a disabled woman. It's ATTITUDES which are the problem, like being forced to attend a diversity workshop even though I was having a fibromyalgia flare and was desperate to get home instead of staying over my shift period, and I kept trying to explain to my line manager that having to sit through these things makes me panicky (laugh if you want but it's true). Guess what? I ended up having a meltdown after being made to work with a colleague who hated me, and my line manager was like 'well I've never met an autistic person before' and I said, "Well, now you have."

Of course Moore is writing for a right-wing paper. They always do in the end.

[Zetetic]

I give up; I cannot support this. I'm doing it, I'm writing an article for The Spectator.

[Mister Six]

Amazingly, it is possible to care about feminism, racism etc. and class. Not all working-class people are white. Marxist feminism is a thing that exists.

Absolutely. Like I said: intersectionality. I've been reading about the Black Panthers, and there was some crossover/support between them and black (and white) communists back in the day, because of a recognition of how economics and race are entwined.

Sorry to hear about the shit time you had at work. Don't suppose you can escalate that kind of thing, can you? Seems well out of line.