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Forums => Picture Box => Topic started by: Ambient Sheep on June 04, 2020, 11:02:35 PM

Title: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on June 04, 2020, 11:02:35 PM
With the third thread (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=56247.0) having reached 100 pages, it's time once again to start a new one.  So here it is.


Meanwhile, have the latest one of these:

Sheepy's guide to Doctor Who threads

Main threads about the new series, in chronological order of creation:
2004/03/04 - 2004/03/20:  Izzard as Dr Who ? (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=978.0) (Rampant speculation)
2004/03/20 - 2005/02/21:  And the new Doctor Who is... (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1285.0) (Eccleston's announcement to the start of Series 1 (27))
2005/02/27 - 2006/10/10:  New Doctor Who (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=7141.0) (Series 1 (27) & 2 (28))
2006/11/01 - 2007/05/21:  Newer Doctor Who (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=12511.0)  (Series 3 (29) part 1)
2007/05/24 - 2009/10/21:  The New Doctor Who thread (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=14804.0) (Series 3 (29) part 2, Series 4 (30), 2009 up to but not including The Waters Of Mars)
2009/10/21 - 2010/03/26:  The "New" Doctor Who Thread (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=22062.0) (2009 just before The Waters of Mars to just before Series 5 (31/Fnarg) aired)
2010/03/18 - 2010/07/27:  Doctor Who - Series 5 Discussion (No Spoilers) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=23387.0) (Series 5 (31/Fnarg))
2010/06/13 - 2011/01/15:  So, Doctor Who. (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=24385.0) (started as Fry's questions thread, mutated halfway down page 12 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=24385.330#msg1333975) into general post-Series-5-(31/Fnarg) discussion, including the 2010 Christmas special (A Christmas Carol))
2011/01/20 - 2012/01/05:  Doctor Who Series 6 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=26900.0) (Series 6 (32))
2012/01/07 - 2012/12/29:  Doctor Who Series 7 and beyond (may contain spoilers) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=30501.0) (S07(33)E01 (Asylum of the Daleks) - S07(33)E05 (The Angels Take Manhattan) plus Christmas Special (The Snowmen))
2012/12/29 - 2013/07/11:  Doctor Who, Series 7 (part two) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,34319.0) (S07(33)E06 (The Bells of Saint John) - S07(33)E13 (The Name of the Doctor))
2013/01/07 - 2014/01/05:  Doctor Who - 50th anniversary year (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=34423.0) (overlaps with the previous thread)
2013/12/26 - 2014/08/11:  Doctor Who - Series 8 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=39943.0) (101 pages before Series 8 (34) had even aired!)
2014/08/09 - 2014/10/21:  Doctor Who - Series 8 (Part 2) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=43602.0) (S08(34)E01 (Deep Breath) - S08(34)E09 (Flatline))
2014/10/21 - 2015/01/14:  Doctor Who - Series 8 (Part 3) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=44749.0) (S08(34)E09 (Flatline) - S08(34)E12 (Death in Heaven) plus Christmas Special (Last Christmas))
2015/01/05 - 2015/10/27:  Doctor Who - Series 9 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=45957.0) (S09(35) speculation and E01 (The Magician's Apprentice) - E06 (The Woman Who Lived))
2015/10/26 - 2016/01/21:  Doctor Who - Series 9 (continued) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic=50578.0) (S09(35)E07 (The Zygon Invasion) - S09(35)E12 (Hell Bent) plus Christmas Special (The Husbands of River Song))
2016/01/22 - 2017/04/15:  Doctor Who - Series 10 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic=52019.0) (Pre-S10(36) speculation)
2017/04/15 - 2017/08/07:  Doctor Who - Series 10 (Part 2) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic=59453.0) (S10(36)E01 (The Pilot) - S10(36)E12 (The Doctor Falls))
2017/08/07 - 2018/01/07:  Doctor Who - Series 10 (Part 3) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic=61765.0) (Christmas Special (Twice Upon a Time) and general chatter about the impending Chibnall era)
2018/01/07 - 2018/11/02:  Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 1) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic=64627.0) (62 pages of pre-S11(37) speculation, then S11(37)E01 (The Woman Who Fell to Earth) (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,64627.msg3624280.html#msg3624280) to S11(37)E04 (Arachnids in the UK))
2018/11/02 - 2019/06/13:  Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic=69940.0) (S11(37)E05 (The Tsuranga Conundrum) to S11(37)E10 (The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos) plus New Year's Day Special (Resolution), then whatever the thread equivalent of "The entire thousand‐mile­‐long bridge spontaneously folded up its glittering spans and sank weeping into the mire, taking everybody with it." would be)
2019/06/13 - 2020/03/03: Doctor Who - Series 12, Chibnall's Revenge (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic=73692.0) (24 pages of Pre-S12(38) speculation, then Ballad's review of S12(38)E01 (Spyfall, Part 1) (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,73692.msg4047943.html#msg4047943), then two-and-a-half pages later, everyone else's (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,73692.msg4056675.html#msg4056675), then all of Series 12 up to and including S12(38)E10 (The Timeless Children).
2020/03/03 - 202?/??/??: Doctor Who Series 12B: The Timeless Chibnall (Xmas special & pre-Series 13 chat) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic=78429.0) (What it says on the tin, plus all the lockdown stuff)


Threads about the old series, in chronological order of creation:
Old Doctor Who (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=8061.0) (Original thread, 2005/05/11 - 2010/06/08)
Old Doctor Who (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=26829.0) (Second thread, 2011/01/14 - 2016/10/21)
Old Doctor Who - Part 3 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=56247.0) (Third thread, 2016/10/21 - 2020/06/04)
Old Doctor Who - Part 4 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=80638.0) (Fourth thread, 2020/06/04 - 20??/??/??, you're reading it now)


Threads about both, but for your ears only:
Doctor Who Audio Adventures (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=68292.0) (Big Finish etc.)


Other Doctor Who related broadcast threads, also in chronological order:
Torchwood Series 1 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=12277.0)
The Sarah Jane Adventures (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=12992.0) (just the pilot, not Series 1, there was no S1 thread)
Torchwood Series 2 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=17177.0)
Sarah Jane adventures- Series 2 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=19551.0)
Torchwood Series 3 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=21169.0) (aka Children of Earth)
Sarah Jane Adventures Series 3 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=22012.0)
Doctor Who and the SPOILERS OF DEATH (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=23894.0) (aborted Series 5 (31/Fnarg) thread)
Junior Masterchef with Doctor Who (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=24299.0)
Doctor Who: The Adventure Games (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=24314.0)
Torchwood: The New World (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=24977.0) (one-page thread presaging Series 4 / Miracle Day)
Torchwood return date.... (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=27669.0) (three-post thread announcing Series 4 / Miracle Day)
Torchwood: Miracle Day (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=28599.0) (aka Series 4)
Torchwood: Miracle Day (US airings) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=28804.0)
Class (Doctor Who spin-off) series 1 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=56195.0)

There wasn't a Sarah Jane Adventures Series 4 thread, let alone a Series 5 one. :-(


The Doctor Who Radio Times Project - with thanks to Replies From View
A Radio Times History of Doctor Who: 01 William Hartnell (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic=77529.0)


Still more Doctor Who related threads, again in chronological order:
Fanzines (Comedy, Doctor Who and in general) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=10255.0)
The Best And Worst Of Doctor Who... Ever (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=13971.0)
Doctor Who - where does everyone stand now ? (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=15233.0)
Mong Doctor Who series 5 (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=18483.0) (H.S. Art thread)
Recommend me some Old Doctor Who (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=23925.0) (a really good thread, IMHO)
Doctor Who Mongs (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=25243.0) (H.S. Art thread)
Beeb to show unseen interview with Dr Who theme creator (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=26110.0) (Delia Derbyshire)
Doctor Who film (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=29977.0) (November 2011 thread about film rumour)
Watching Doctor Who no 1. The Time Meddler (1965) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=36654.0)
Why i don't like modern Doctor Who (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=36745.0)
Doctor Who leaked scripts thread (but still no spoilers) (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=43123.0) (July 2014)
Doctor Who: The Movie (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=47480.0) (April 2015 thread about another film rumour)
K9: Timequake (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=50567.0) (new movie coming 2017, allegedly... very allegedly, by now)
Doctor Who World (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=52925.0) (should it become an expanded franchise like Marvel?)
Dr Who Re Dooooo (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=54820.0) (would it be worth refilming some early stories?)
Doctor Who or Chips? (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=56215.0) (addressing the burning issue of the day)
Tom Baker is still alive (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=57976.0) (General Tom Baker appreciation thread)
Lost WHO script. (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=60703.0) (Spoon of Ploff writes a Doctor Who story in H.S. Art)
BRADLEY WALSH will be Doctor Who's companion (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=62039.0) (Two-and-a-half pages of mild jaw-droppage from 2017/08/21-24, however this comment fails to be "very sarky")
Radiophonic Prom (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=68243.0) (featuring the music of Delia Derbyshire, among others)
Watching Doctor Who (2005) from the middle of the beginning (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=69730.0) (madhair60 sparks discussion about the RTD era -- includes a superb Sheepy-has-to-up-his-game-now list (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,69730.msg3638553.html#msg3638553) by Talulah, really! to every individual episode discussion of the first three series; many thanks for that!)
Clive Swift has died (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=71508.0) (and much of the thread is about that DWM interview)
giant blue penis bloke from doctor who (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=72489.0) (the Moxx of Balhoon gets his own thread, then lives it up with Balok and friends)
Wanting to get into old Doctor Who (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=77342.0) (madhair60 enquires again; lots of good answers)


(See here (http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,50578.msg2668048.html#msg2668048) for sources.  Further additions & corrections welcome.)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 04, 2020, 11:44:40 PM
I suppose Season 20 makes sense as the next BluRay - everything pre-Tom needs a lot of touching up, and everything post-Davison isn’t going to sell as well - but I really wouldn’t mind another earlier one at this stage.

I’ve taken lockdown as an opportunity to work through a stack of books I’ve been meaning to read in ages, so my Who novel marathon is currently paused - but it’ll be back in a couple of months hopefully.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on June 05, 2020, 11:55:49 AM
I'm slightly peeved that they released 12 and 14 and missed 13. Zygons? Pyramids? Morbius? Seeds of Doom? Yes please!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on June 11, 2020, 01:07:46 PM
S14 is being reissued in July due to demand. Identical content and packaging.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 11, 2020, 01:44:37 PM
I'm slightly peeved that they released 12 and 14 and missed 13. Zygons? Pyramids? Morbius? Seeds of Doom? Yes please!

It's presumably not been overlooked.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 11, 2020, 01:48:34 PM
Yes, it was confirmed by the team making the extras, that they plan on doing all 26 - plus a McGann / Wilderness years set!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on June 11, 2020, 04:12:37 PM
S14 is being reissued in July due to demand. Identical content and packaging.

Oh what brilliant news.  Can we pre-order now?

I wonder if it really will be identical packaging or if, like my S12 set (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,56247.msg4185880.html#msg4185880), it will say "2ND EDITION" on the bottom in tiny print?  Not that I care as long as the content's identical, I'm not that much of a collector, but will be interesting to see if they bother.

If anybody knows off the top of their head, to save me looking myself, what other seasons have been released so far?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on June 11, 2020, 04:56:31 PM
I wonder if they're legally obliged to write second print/edition as the original run are sold as limited editions.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 11, 2020, 05:00:54 PM
If anybody knows off the top of their head, to save me looking myself, what other seasons have been released so far?

season & UK release date

12 - 2 July 2018
19 - 26 November 2018
18 - 18 March 2019
10 - 8 July 2019
23 - 7 October 2019
26 - 27 January 2020
14 - 4 May 2020
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on June 11, 2020, 05:05:27 PM
Yes, but I want Season 13 NOW!

I watched Planet of the Spiders over the last few days. Jesus, it's poor. Diabolical performances, and maybe three episodes of plot at most stretched over six.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on June 11, 2020, 05:54:46 PM
I really like the stuff with Lipton at the retreat, and Mike has a nice redemption. But the Metebelis characters are rubbish. Hard to argue against it being stretched out with entire episode pretty much just a chase.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on June 11, 2020, 06:52:14 PM
season & UK release date

12 - 2 July 2018
19 - 26 November 2018
18 - 18 March 2019
10 - 8 July 2019
23 - 7 October 2019
26 - 27 January 2020
14 - 4 May 2020

Oh brilliant, that's so kind of you.

Shit, though, didn't realise there'd been so many so far; in particular I didn't realise they'd done a Pertwee. 

Bother.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 11, 2020, 07:54:35 PM
in particular I didn't realise they'd done a Pertwee. 

Here's the trailer for that one : Jo Grant Returns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WBpPWy7jB8)

There's also a cracking new Pertwee Documentary Doctor Who and the Third Man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qGfw2FVNmo) on there, featuring interviews with Gatiss and Moffat.

Don't pay silly money for it on ebay, though - they're bound to re-issue it eventually!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on June 11, 2020, 08:58:05 PM
I really like the stuff with Lipton at the retreat, and Mike has a nice redemption. But the Metebelis characters are rubbish. Hard to argue against it being stretched out with entire episode pretty much just a chase.

As well as the chase, the cliffhanger reprises are really long - I assume you don't notice this so much watching episodes seven days apart insted of one.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 11, 2020, 09:10:40 PM
Yes, it was confirmed by the team making the extras, that they plan on doing all 26 - plus a McGann / Wilderness years set!
They also want to do the new series in the same format, although whether it'll happen remains to be seen.

Obviously the reissue of 14 is great, although it's annoying that it's basically them covering up the major fuckups that happened there, with them not issuing promised stock out so retailers had to cancel guaranteed preorders. Described as 'to meet demand' when it should have been described as 'to meet our original targets'.

I like Planet of the Spiders. It's definitely got a lot of filler, but it just has a really tense 'end of Doctor' feel to it, especially the chase. It never feels like just a normal story.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 18, 2020, 08:04:10 PM
Purlieu's BluRay Odyssey: Frontier in Space

The ultimate in 'locked up -> escape -> locked up' stories, to the point where it becomes funny. It's actually a story that benefits from it: the frustration of The Doctor and Jo not being able to sort the situation feeds into the tension. Nevertheless, it's definitely a long six parter, and although narratively bunching all the action up towards the end makes sense, and gives it an enjoyably unusual structure, some of the early stuff definitely drags.

A decent set of extras, this time. The making of is fine, not one of the best but certainly some insight. Behind the Sofa has, at this point, turned into everyone just saying how good things are. The real pulls are the first Perfect Scenario documentary which, despite a staggeringly naff framing narrative, is an enjoyable look into how the culture and politics of 1970s Britain fed into the story; and in particular the Roger Delgado biography, which was really moving: it's clear just how loved he was as a person, and how tragic a loss his death was. When his widow talked about how she wished she'd been in the car so she could have died with him, it definitely brought some tears. A beautiful piece and worth the price of entry alone.

Next time: The Daleks 2.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on June 18, 2020, 08:49:35 PM
Been trying to pick up The Faceless Ones cheap on Blu-Ray. Just not happening. Can't even 'acquire' it elsewhere even though I know its been ripped.

I'd like to get the Blu-Ray box sets but his shit of get it at the time or pay through the nose is pissing me off. Found a few of them on torrents but fuck me they take up a lot of space. So much so that if they were just always available to buy at a normal price I usually wouldn't hesitate but just woefully skint at the moment. Or at least getting way more for my money than I would for a single story release.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 18, 2020, 09:18:49 PM
I'd like to get the Blu-Ray box sets but his shit of get it at the time or pay through the nose is pissing me off.

Yeah, the days of being able to wait years for DVD prices to drop to under a fiver are long gone - these buggers are selling out even before the release date - it's crazy!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 18, 2020, 09:20:10 PM
Those scalpers need to be fed.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 18, 2020, 10:19:26 PM
I don't understand the business model at all. Surely the more you make, the cheaper each becomes, the more profit is made? There are so many people clamouring for these after they've sold out that, even if they really want to do them as limited editions, they could easily double the number and not make a loss. Given the amount of money put into new extras, packaging design, upgrading, etc., you'd think they'd want to make them as widely available as possible, in the way every other BluRay is done. I'm still totally baffled by the whole thing.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 18, 2020, 10:31:40 PM
Seems as good a place as any to put this, from the latest Popbitch mailout:


A keen amateur photographer and cricket player, Anthony Ainley's former team-mates remember that he would usually decline to partake of the traditional cricket teas in the club house on account of his dislike of cheese, choosing instead to eat his own little picnic in his car.

He wouldn't always dine alone though. Sometimes he'd invite a team-mate or member of the opposition to join him and would pass the time by showing them the chunky photo album he kept of polaroids that he'd taken of various fannies over the years.

Tom Baker claims that Ainley had a "cock like a skittle".
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jenna appleseed on June 19, 2020, 12:02:23 AM
Earlier from the mini quarantine daily Pobitches they've been sending out:

">> Doctor's orders <<
Taking care of the bad guys

TL writes:
"Back in the early 80s I was a massive Doctor Who fan. I didn't write letters to the Doctors though. I wrote to Anthony Ainley, who played the Doctor's arch-nemesis, the Master. The letter said how, even though I liked the Doctor, I thought The Master was better and I didn't understand why the BBC couldn't let him win occasionally.

"I was utterly gobsmacked when I received not only a signed photo, but also a lengthy letter, written in character by Ainley, on how I was utterly correct and that the BBC were indeed the true enemy for not letting him win."

"Years later, when working for a West London Theatre in 1999, I had the opportunity to meet Ainley. This was almost 20 years on from my letter and I mentioned it in passing in the bar. Ainley lit up and explained in great depth that he'd always remembered it, as 'many children weren't allowed by their parents to write to the bad guy.'" "

---
"Further to last week's story, Anthony Ainley's passion for playing the Master is well known to Dr Who fans. Apparently he used to introduce himself on the phone by saying "This is the Master" and do an evil laugh. His answerphone message was similar."
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on June 19, 2020, 12:23:33 AM
That's brilliant. But in what circumstances would Tom Baker even...

Don't tell, me I don't want to know.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Hank the Rapper on June 19, 2020, 01:45:05 AM
Skittle, the sweet or Skittle, the bowling pin?

I HAVE TO KNOW.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on June 19, 2020, 01:53:38 AM
He wouldn't always dine alone though. Sometimes he'd invite a team-mate or member of the opposition to join him and would pass the time by showing them the chunky photo album he kept of polaroids that he'd taken of various fannies over the years.

"This is Matthew Waterhouse... Jon Pertwee on the Five Doctors... JN-T... Matthew Waterhouse again..."
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 19, 2020, 10:06:54 AM
I wonder if it...

(https://images1.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2005-10/10/94265713-2-1.jpg)

No, best not to think.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 19, 2020, 03:46:18 PM
Tom Baker claims that Ainley had a "cock like a skittle".

In its shape?  Or in the sense that it was easily toppled over?


Or maybe he meant it had a colourful sugar coating.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on June 19, 2020, 06:08:39 PM
I don't understand the business model at all. Surely the more you make, the cheaper each becomes, the more profit is made? There are so many people clamouring for these after they've sold out that, even if they really want to do them as limited editions, they could easily double the number and not make a loss. Given the amount of money put into new extras, packaging design, upgrading, etc., you'd think they'd want to make them as widely available as possible, in the way every other BluRay is done. I'm still totally baffled by the whole thing.

The only explanation I've seen (and it was only from someone from the internet) is that they weren't sure that fans would necessarily pay for a minor upgrade in picture quality and a few extra features, and that if it went on general release then lots of people would decide to wait for 9 months till the price drops. So by having a limited edition, everyone buys at full price and the BBC make their money back.

Still seems like they've made them a bit too limited though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 19, 2020, 06:42:56 PM
Given that when the BBC did a subtle rebranding on its DVD range, they started printing reversible DVD sleeves because they knew a certain number of fans would object to the spines looking very slightly different. I wonder at what point they started miscalculating what Doctor Who fans want. These would probably sell out in a few months if they made twice as many.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jenna appleseed on June 19, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Seems as good a place as any to put this, from the latest Popbitch mailout:


A keen amateur photographer and cricket player, Anthony Ainley's former team-mates remember that he would usually decline to partake of the traditional cricket teas in the club house on account of his dislike of cheese, choosing instead to eat his own little picnic in his car.

He wouldn't always dine alone though. Sometimes he'd invite a team-mate or member of the opposition to join him and would pass the time by showing them the chunky photo album he kept of polaroids that he'd taken of various fannies over the years.

Tom Baker claims that Ainley had a "cock like a skittle".


latest mini popbitch update

">> Photo services <<
The Master at work

You may be wondering, after yesterday's story of Anthony Ainley's infamous fanny photo album, where The Master managed to recruit so many models. Most of them were of his own acquaintance, but he was apparently well-known at his cricket club for approaching any new recruit to the team to offer his photography services.

He would sidle up to them to ask: "Do you have any naked photographs of your wife?"

If they told him no, he would respond – after a brief pause:

"...would you like some?" "
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on June 20, 2020, 10:08:14 AM
Maybe it wasn't just the character that was good at hypnotism?

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CompassionateInbornDipper-size_restricted.gif)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jenna appleseed on June 25, 2020, 01:23:50 AM
^ that mustache is a bit wonky & for a moment there he looks like he's going to burst into tears.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on June 26, 2020, 03:32:03 PM
Right, sorry if you've talked about this before, but it was just recommended me on Amazon, and...

(https://cdn.hmv.com/r/w-1280/hmv/files/b5/b523ec00-a33e-40ae-913e-c18122597d40.jpg)

...I'm sorry to say I laughed. I mean I can see what they were trying to do but it looks like a blow-up doll. And when exactly did Ronnie O'Sullivan play TV's Dr Who?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bingo Fury on June 26, 2020, 04:52:54 PM
It's truly awful, isn't it? Especially when you consider the limited edition blu-ray got this.

(https://i.imgur.com/xD9WLEP.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on June 26, 2020, 05:25:27 PM
I mean I don't like slagging artists off too much - I can't draw - but considering how stunningly beautiful Anneke Wills was, that's almost an insult. I bet she pissed herself laughing when she saw it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 26, 2020, 06:51:53 PM
Series 6 blu-ray Steelbook up for pre-order (out mid August) £27.99 : Zoom (https://www.zoom.co.uk/product/doctor_who_the_complete_sixth_series_steel_book_limited_edition_blu_ray)  /  Zavvi (https://www.zavvi.com/blu-ray/doctor-who-the-complete-series-6-limited-edition-steelbook/12624685.html)  /  Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08BX8WV2H/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=doctor+who+steelbook+series+6&qid=1593194069&sr=8-2)

(https://i.imgur.com/lfOcw1d.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 26, 2020, 06:54:09 PM
I thought series 6 already had a steelbook release a while back.


Is it just to include the Chibnall logo?  Good grief.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 26, 2020, 07:02:49 PM
Think it was Series 5 that had a previous steelbook (ten years ago) - that chunky silver one.

The Capaldi steelbooks were gorgeous but so expensive - £45 or so - that's just taking the piss!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* [should this go in the 'current (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,78429.930.html)' thread? I'm a bit confused what counts as New or Old Who these days!]
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 26, 2020, 08:47:17 PM
Yes, there's no dedicated thread for Old New Who. I think because news and discussion about it is pretty sparse, this thread seems be an ok go-to. Don't think there are many in here who only like the classic series anyway.

That Anneke Wills picture is atrocious.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on June 29, 2020, 10:00:37 PM
Guess this counts as old Who now.

(https://i.ibb.co/MnR4kxq/Screenshot-2020-06-29-Latest-Tweets-Twitter.png)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on June 29, 2020, 10:22:36 PM
Guess this counts as old Who now.

(https://i.ibb.co/MnR4kxq/Screenshot-2020-06-29-Latest-Tweets-Twitter.png)

Was also in 2 classic series stories so defo counts.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 29, 2020, 10:29:52 PM
Always lovely when a photo of someone who recently died shows them in hospital on their last legs.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bingo Fury on June 29, 2020, 10:36:29 PM
"It's the same rain."

The terrible awesomeness of time travel in four understated words. Beat that, Chibbers.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 29, 2020, 10:57:39 PM
Hadn't clocked he was Ponti in Planet Of Evil. RIP.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: George White on July 01, 2020, 08:03:32 PM
Remembering a line in the Knockoffs section of the most recent About Time chronicle. In passing it mentions "the US shows that were probably influenced by PBS showings in the 70s/80s". without saying what these were. Any guesses? Voyagers? The Amazing Captain Nemo? Trevor Eve in Shadowchasers?

What do we think Tat Wood is talking about?
Ones I can think of.
MacGyver - blame Terry Nation, to the extent there's an episode about June Chadwick inventing Dalek-esque security bots.
Star Trek - The Next Generation -
X-Men - the Animated Series - John Byrne has said that Days of Future Past was a subconscious liting from seeing Day of the Daleks on PBS. He's been less subtitle in his riffs on Who elsewhere - the Minds of Mantracora....
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on July 04, 2020, 06:02:40 PM
R.I.P. Earl Cameron, the legendary actor who at 102 was also Doctor Who's oldest surviving performer. That accolade passes to Arnold Yarrow, Bellal in 'Death to the Daleks', who himself turned 100 in April.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/5CA2/production/_113241732_tv005242181.jpg)

Cameron in 'The Tenth Planet' - this was, apparently, the first time ever in any film or TV series around the world a black actor had portrayed an astronaut.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on July 04, 2020, 07:01:42 PM
Was just talking about him with my dad. Had popped up on a couple of films on Talking Pictures recently; Emergency Call & Sapphire - both enjoyable.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: George White on July 04, 2020, 07:07:07 PM
R.I.P. Earl Cameron, the legendary actor who at 102 was also Doctor Who's oldest surviving performer. That accolade passes to Arnold Yarrow, Bellal in 'Death to the Daleks', who himself turned 100 in April.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/5CA2/production/_113241732_tv005242181.jpg)

Cameron in 'The Tenth Planet' - this was, apparently, the first time ever in any film or TV series around the world a black actor had portrayed an astronaut.

TV yes, but Antonio Margheriti's Space Men cast the African-American actor Archie Savage as an astronaut, and there's an East German film, First Spaceship on Venus that has an African non-actor as one of the crew.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on July 04, 2020, 07:29:32 PM
You'd better get doctorwhonews.net to correct their news story!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on July 18, 2020, 09:55:23 AM
Managed to get the Faceless Ones on Blu Ray for £3 as I got a £10 Amazon voucher so finally got round to watching it last night.

Found the story enjoyable and it didn't seem too stretched out across the 6 episodes. The animation was fine although Troughton appears to have a massive top half of head at times. There's a couple of shots that look almost real and not animated at all.

The cliffhanger to episode 4 looks stunning animated. I'll be looking at parts of the story in the b&w version to see how it looks as well.

The inclusion of the Masters on the wanted board is a good thing about these animated ep's. They can add little details in without them being distracting. Noticed a few little Easter eggs dotted around.

Fairly light on extras even though it's a 3 disc release. Just the b&w option, 2 original ep's, 2 recons, a making of and a trailer I think.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on July 18, 2020, 11:34:46 AM
There's also a commentary, subtitle production notes and all the surviving clips.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on July 18, 2020, 11:54:30 AM
There's also a commentary, subtitle production notes and all the surviving clips.

I looked at putting production subtitles on but they weren't an option on the menu.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on July 19, 2020, 10:36:46 AM
It's listed on the back of the box. They're on the recon.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on July 19, 2020, 10:59:25 AM
I'm pretty sure they are listed wrong. They are just descriptional subtitles for the recon and not actual production subtitles.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on July 19, 2020, 11:54:12 AM
Very sloppy of them to make that mistake.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on July 19, 2020, 12:01:30 PM
It's listed on the back of the box. They're on the recon.

Yeah saw that afterwards but thought you had meant they were on the animations. I usually have them on when I'm rewatching a story. Great insight.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 19, 2020, 12:11:20 PM
Would be odd I think to put production subtitles on animations unless they were specifically about the production of the animation.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on July 21, 2020, 07:10:26 PM
Just remembered that they don't include the production subtitles on the animations as they instead opt to include production details as a booklet.

The new Power Special Edition will include an uncut version of the original booklet as ROM content (it was apparently originally 40 odd pages of A4 before being cut down).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on July 22, 2020, 07:19:04 PM
Toby Hadoke's obituary for Maurice Roëves.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/jul/22/maurice-roeves-obituary (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/jul/22/maurice-roeves-obituary)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on July 23, 2020, 01:24:23 PM
Trailer for The Power Of The Daleks SE.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fv36UuCkUtg&t

The while since I saw the story so don't know if it looks any better or not.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on July 23, 2020, 02:09:38 PM
Trailer for The Power Of The Daleks SE.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fv36UuCkUtg&t

The while since I saw the story so don't know if it looks any better or not.

Either way, I ain't buying it again.

[edited to include quote; new page rage]
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on July 23, 2020, 05:26:12 PM
Remember when trailers came out before the thing they were promoting?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on July 23, 2020, 06:55:51 PM
They need to do a split-screen comparison video - this looks exactly the same to me, except Pat is now wearing a different pair of trousers.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on July 23, 2020, 06:58:26 PM
Wish they'd let the people who did the Mission To The Unknown remake loose on this.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on July 23, 2020, 07:01:45 PM
There's still the Season 4 blu ray set to come of course * - so they could always do something for that as an extra.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* not announced yet - just that they are planning to do all 27 seasons . . . that's right, Pancho - I said 27 - Paul McGann's going to have his own chuffing box!)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on July 23, 2020, 08:12:44 PM
They need to do a split-screen comparison video - this looks exactly the same to me, except Pat is now wearing a different pair of trousers.

The majority of the changes are more about making characters more expressive, it seems. The original animation, as good as it was, was very stilted.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on July 28, 2020, 02:32:07 PM
Power of the Daleks split-screen comparison :

https://vimeo.com/442353545

(<--left 2016  |  2020 right-->)

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on July 28, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Power of the Daleks split-screen comparison :

https://vimeo.com/442353545

(<--left 2016  |  2020 right-->)

I preferred the animation on the left. Aside from adding fog that makes the animation less clear, is there any real difference?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on July 28, 2020, 04:57:50 PM
I watched the recon as I've seen the animation several times already. Very good recon though I can't help but wonder if some of those AI powered that people like Clayton Hickman are using to restore old Who pictures could be used to improve the look of the telesnaps to a better standard. Just a thought rather than a criticism.

I actually wondered watching it if I prefer recons or animation. There were moments where I genuinely felt like I was watching it which never happens on the animation. Either way it doesn't matter as thankfully these releases give you the opportunity to watch both in rotations which always makes the story feel fresh. Hopefully recons remain a standard even with the Season 1-6 releases.

The new documentary is rather impressive as I think it was largely made in lockdown. The other odds and sods on Disc 3 are great too. Whicker's World was particularly enjoyable.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: olliebean on July 28, 2020, 05:04:49 PM
The animation on the right seems slightly smoother. Also the Doctor is wearing different trousers for some reason.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on July 28, 2020, 05:11:57 PM
The animation on the right seems slightly smoother. Also the Doctor is wearing different trousers for some reason.

Tartan is incredibly difficult to animate so they've made his trousers plain in order to animate more movement in his legs.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on July 30, 2020, 10:46:32 PM
Lytton is getting a comic spin-off.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/room5064/lytton-a-comic-mini-series-by-doctor-whos-eric-saward/rewards

First issue is out soon. Be good to get a Sabalom Glitz one next!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 03, 2020, 01:30:27 PM
Info released for the animated Fury from the Deep, out on 14 September.

Animation by a new animation house, produced by Gary Russell.
Extras to include a commentary, making of documentary, all surviving footage, animation feature, archive interviews with writer Victor Pemberton and visual effects designer Peter Day, teaser trailer, photo gallery, PDF scripts and The Slide - a 1965 radio series based on an earlier version of the script, starring Roger Delgado.

https://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2020/08/03/fury-from-the-deep-animation-to-be-released-on-dvd-blu-ray-and-steelbook-in-september-2020/
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on August 03, 2020, 02:00:32 PM
Cheers - I was wondering what had happened to this.

The Standard cover is quite nice this time, but as I started collecting the steelbooks, I'm sticking with them (curse you OCD!)

(https://i.imgur.com/lGSEESz.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/nZ7XLx3.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 03, 2020, 03:26:18 PM
Info released for the animated Fury from the Deep, out on 14 September.

Animation by a new animation house, produced by Gary Russell.
Extras to include a commentary, making of documentary, all surviving footage, animation feature, archive interviews with writer Victor Pemberton and visual effects designer Peter Day, teaser trailer, photo gallery, PDF scripts and The Slide - a 1965 radio series based on an earlier version of the script, starring Roger Delgado.

https://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2020/08/03/fury-from-the-deep-animation-to-be-released-on-dvd-blu-ray-and-steelbook-in-september-2020/

It has been confirmed that this one does have proper Production Subtitles too unlike the previous animations. Really stuffed with extras.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on August 07, 2020, 03:25:29 PM
Was watching a sealed Series 14 Blu Ray boxset on eBay. Went for £50 which I thought was quite reasonable considering what I've seen people pay in the past. Seller has another one for sale as well if anyone has been trying to get one at a half decent price.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on August 28, 2020, 08:09:31 AM
Evil Of The Daleks & The Abominable Snowmen getting animated releases in 2021.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-08-27/doctor-who-lost-episode-animation/
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on August 28, 2020, 08:56:28 AM
Evil Of The Daleks & The Abominable Snowmen getting animated releases in 2021.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-08-27/doctor-who-lost-episode-animation/

Excellent news. Two cracking Troughton stories, yes please!

Reading that reminded me Evil of the Daleks was intended to be their last appearance. Blimey, can you imagine. I still like that they had a good old rest before Day of the Daleks.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on August 28, 2020, 06:11:46 PM
At the moment it's just based on a report from The Mirror.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on August 29, 2020, 01:15:00 AM
Evil Of The Daleks & The Abominable Snowmen getting animated releases in 2021.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-08-27/doctor-who-lost-episode-animation/

Yes!

At the moment it's just based on a report from The Mirror.

Dammit!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on September 10, 2020, 05:59:14 PM
Fury from the Deep

Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98q7xragcvc)  |  Unboxing  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StMvSd8eR5E)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on September 10, 2020, 06:26:47 PM
Fury from the Deep

Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98q7xragcvc)  |  Unboxing  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StMvSd8eR5E)

The unboxing video came up on my YT the other day so went to buy it and saw it wasn't out yet. Faceless Ones is down to £11 for Blu-Ray on Amazon. I really don't understand the point of Unboxing videos or how they get so many views!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on September 10, 2020, 06:50:55 PM
I really don't understand the point of Unboxing videos or how they get so many views!

It's quite nice to see the item in 'real life' rather than as a photo - so you know what you're getting -

e.g I spent ages looking for an unboxing of the re-packaged Peep Show season 1-9 DVD set, to check it wasn't a shelf-hogger with 9 DVD cases stuffed in a box. I didn't actually find one, so I had to risk it - but turned out fine (if anyone's interested) as the box is barely an inch wide - result!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 10, 2020, 08:54:26 PM
Fury is getting great reviews. More so than any previous animation.

Hoping for an early delivery tomorrow.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 14, 2020, 07:02:25 PM
Just finished Fury from the Deep. Rather good it was too. I don't personally think the story itself is one of the very best as some seem to but still a great atmospheric tale.

Difficult to judge certain elements as I know the story had a certain scale to it when originally made which, production wise, put it above the rest of the season. The animation seemingly adds to the scale which makes it difficult to see the original story within the animation. One to revisit with the recon in a year or two.

The animation looks wonderful. My only criticism is the monkey arms which occasionally look rather silly.

Hoping that the rumour of Evil\Abominable is true and this team have moved right on to Abominable.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on September 14, 2020, 07:10:39 PM
Well its reputation is partly down to people who saw it in the sixties and partly the novel, which is usually rated the best Target book ever. And from what you can see of Mr Oak and Mr Quill they do look pretty shit scary. Like you say, very hard to judge without the pictures!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on September 16, 2020, 09:05:03 PM
Yay! Production subtitles are back!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on October 05, 2020, 11:49:22 PM
After a break to go through a handful of "literary" novels as well as some Tolkien and The Dark Tower, I'm back on the VNAs again now. It's quite nice to read something as simple and pulpy as these again, actually. So I'll be back in a couple of days with my thoughts on Theatre of War. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on October 07, 2020, 08:57:42 AM
Watched Fury From The Deep. Thought it was only alright. Wasn't too keen on the animation. It just looked really budget at times in terms of movement. There were points where you could hear people shuffling around but all the characters were still. Lots of instances of long shots of people just looking at each other. I felt they could have added a bit more movement to break the monotony.

Story was good enough. Sad goodbye to Victoria at the end. The original audio for the story must have been really bad at parts as the cleaned up audio was still a bit difficult to understand at times. Think I'll be watching the recons when i do a full Who rewatch next year. Only cost me £4 on Blu-Ray delivered due to various money off Amazon vouchers I had so that was good.

Can't remember what the next release is.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on October 16, 2020, 12:44:55 PM
Matthew Sweet just tweeted out that they're back in production on the bluray extras. So hopefully some news of future releases won't be far away
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on October 16, 2020, 02:27:16 PM
Mark Ayres tweeted a picture of a new 5.1 mix recently, so they've definately been working on *something*.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on October 20, 2020, 11:06:04 AM
Anyone listen to Tennant's podcast? It's a bit pants when he hasn't got his proper mates on, to be honest, but Billie is on it this week so could be good. The Olivia Colman and Michael Sheen ones were OK.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on October 20, 2020, 12:29:59 PM
Anyone listen to Tennant's podcast? It's a bit pants when he hasn't got his proper mates on, to be honest, but Billie is on it this week so could be good. The Olivia Colman and Michael Sheen ones were OK.

Listened to a couple of them but only ones with people i liked. Sheen, Colman & Whoopi Goldberg the only ones i remember. If Piper is on it this week i'll have a listen.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on October 20, 2020, 12:38:25 PM
I watched half an episode of a Netflix show with Tennant about actors zooming during lockdown and couldn’t be arsed to be honest.

If his podcast is anything like that I doubt I’ll be arsed to be honest.


Arsed to be honest.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on October 20, 2020, 03:33:42 PM
I watched half an episode of a Netflix show with Tennant about actors zooming during lockdown and couldn’t be arsed to be honest.

If his podcast is anything like that I doubt I’ll be arsed to be honest.


Arsed to be honest.
Staged is brilliant. Stick with it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on October 20, 2020, 04:44:48 PM
Staged is brilliant. Stick with it.

Carrot would be better
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: olliebean on October 20, 2020, 09:38:57 PM
Staged is brilliant. Stick with it.

Yeah, the first episode isn't very promising but it picks up thereafter.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on October 26, 2020, 12:41:57 PM
Doctor Who and What Ace Gets Up to in the Evenings Theatre of War by Justin Richards.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/6/60/NA026_theatreofwar.jpg)

Previously... on Doctor Who: The Virgin New Adventures
Ace has finally stopped being a whiny twat and has begun to resemble the TV version of her character, only with Added Space Soldier Skills. The Doctor is sometimes a master manipulator with hints to something called Time's Champion, while other times he's just... well, The Doctor. The Brigadier's great-great-great granddaughter is out there somewhere. And Benny was last seen tagging along to some archeological dig sponsored by the mysterious[1] Irving Braxiatel. And now, the continuation...
After a break to go through a handful of "literary" novels as well as some Tolkien and The Dark Tower, I'm back on the VNAs again now. It's quite nice to read something as simple and pulpy as these again, actually. So I'll be back in a couple of days with my thoughts on Theatre of War. Stay tuned.
The fact that this ended up taking me three weeks says a lot about how enjoyable I found it. On completing it, I was surprised to discover it's a fairly well regarded book. I do understand some of the praise it gets: there's a very good story that finally comes about in the third act, but the first act is such a fucking slog that it killed my interest stone dead, and by the time it started to get interesting, I had forgotten most of what had happened because I'd read some reference two weeks prior, in blocks of two or three pages at a time.

Speaking of Acts, the book is split into them. You see, the 'Theatre' of war is very much a literal one: A race of people founded on the principle that theatre is a sign of the highest form of civilisation, who use their military to invade other cultures and impose said philosophy on them. Later on it turns out the military leader is conducting hideous experiments on the race they're invading (so bad they "make the Nazis look like Dad's Army," in the words of Ace), but this is so underdeveloped and at odds with everything else that it feels tacked on as an excuse to justify Braxiatel and the Doctor's actions. Archaeologists from this world are uncovering the remains of a theatre on what seems like another planet obsessed with theatre. This is my biggest problem with the book: the characters, largely space marines there to guard what is pretty much a jolly expedition in the middle of a war zone, are all one-dimensional nobodies, the kind we've come across dozens of times already in the books. There's generally a very military slant to the novels, and it got boring a while ago. So while a bunch of vaguely familiar with characters with not-quite-English names are picked off one by one, there's nothing to offer any interest to the reader at all.

Elsewhere, Benny is sent off to the Braxiatel Collection to investigate further, as everything on the planet seems just too coincidental to her and The Doctor. This bit is great. Benny really comes into her own as a smart, witty archaeologist. Meeting with Braxiatel, she holds her own, and the whole section manages to be much more pacy and exciting, despite it basically being Benny doing research in a museum. Braxiatel sends her off to meet with The Doctor, just in time for the climax.

The third Act throws in a number of twists and turns, involving a mythical lost play (guess who helped write it), a personal revenge story, and a resolution to the aforementioned war crimes. Much like the various documents sourced from the Braxiatel Collection that are placed between chapters, I get the feeling the connecting strands would have been more satisfying had I been able to get through the book in a couple of afternoons, but after three weeks I'd really begun to lose an idea of what was going on. It's clear from the fact that I read this final act in a couple of hours that there's loads more interest here, though, and I can definitely see the skeleton of an excellent story. I just wish I didn't have to wade through multiple chapters of meathead male and butch female soldiers trudging through mud, and intellectuals discussing Shakespeare, before I got to it.

Character-wise, The Doctor is definitely the Seventh, albeit in a fairly unsubstantial role, closer to his season 25 incarnation than the full-on 'playing chess with time itself' manipulator we find later. Ace mostly exists to smash things up, and be told not to smash things up. Benny is the highlight here, given a meaty role and some well thought-out characterisation.

Kadiatu still hasn't turned up yet.
 1. or he would be, had I not read The Empire of Glass back in my First Doctor run
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on October 26, 2020, 04:59:16 PM
Richards is a very workmanlike writer, isn't he. Not quite bland and dull like the output of B.U.L.I.S., but just sort of very meat-and-potatoes Dr Who. I have a hard time remembering anything written by him that I've read.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on October 26, 2020, 05:26:53 PM
I've never managed to get through Theatre Of War - it's so turgid. Twice I got about a third of the way through and gave up. The audio adaptation, though, is very good.

Richards is a funny one. He gets a lot better, very quickly, after this, and books like The Burning, The Medusa Effect and Dragons' Wrath are good, they're readable and rattle along. But he's never written anything which particularly distinguishes itself, either. The arse end of the EDAs is particularly problematic, where he starts off a giant, hard to follow "arc" that takes forever to unfold and is finally resolved in the most boring manner possible.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on October 26, 2020, 05:31:36 PM
I found out the other day that not only did John Nathan-Turner go to my school, he lived on the same road I lived on. Weirded me out for some reason.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on October 29, 2020, 01:10:16 PM
Don't know if this was mentioned at the time (I guess it belongs here in the Old Doctor Who thread) but back in August, TV Cream invited Steven Moffat to watch Once Upon A Time, the penultimate episode of the original version of The Prisoner...

TV Cream Stays Indoors With Steven Moffat (https://www.tvcream.co.uk/podcasts/tv-cream-stays-indoors/tv-cream-stays-indoors-with-steven-moffat/)

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on October 29, 2020, 03:48:03 PM
Series 7 Steelbook out in December - doctorwhowatch (https://doctorwhowatch.com/2020/10/29/doctor-who-series-7-steelbook/)  /  thedoctorwhosite (https://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/doctor-who-the-complete-series-7-steelbook/)

(https://i.imgur.com/Zn2GZBO.jpg)




Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on October 29, 2020, 04:56:04 PM
I don't remember the Autons being in Series Seve-- oh wait, that's Clara, isn't it?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 05:54:58 PM
Is this the first time series 7 has been on blu ray?  Feels like these have already all been released a hundred times.  Is this one just for the Chibnall logo?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on October 29, 2020, 06:17:06 PM
Is this the first time series 7 has been on blu ray?  Feels like these have already all been released a hundred times.  Is this one just for the Chibnall logo?

It's had a bluray before, yes.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on October 29, 2020, 08:39:12 PM
I don't remember the Autons being in Series Seve-- oh wait, that's Clara, isn't it?
Haha.


Christ I miss the Clara years
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: olliebean on October 29, 2020, 09:45:14 PM
Does everything pre-Chibnall count as "Old Doctor Who" now?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on October 29, 2020, 09:51:08 PM
Does everything pre-Chibnall count as "Old Doctor Who" now?

It all falls into the bracket of “Pre-Hopeless Doctor Who”.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: olliebean on November 03, 2020, 04:38:21 PM
In that case, Moffat's uploaded the first draft of Blink: https://www.doctorwholockdown.com/sally-sparrow-and-the-weeping-angel
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: M-CORP on November 03, 2020, 06:26:25 PM
He signed himself off as 'the former Steven Moffat'. What a guy.
Always liked Moffat's self-deprecating style of humour, particularly in his columns in Doctor Who Magazine where he would answer fans' questions. These columns alone are really funny and probably better than much of the Chibnall era (less pleasurable it may be to still be saying stuff like that at this point).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: M-CORP on November 03, 2020, 06:38:32 PM
Have also just skimmed through the first draft and, given that it's not too dissimilar, the fact he was able to nail about 75 to 90 percent of what became Blink on the first draft just makes me admire Moffat more. I do like the original ending (though the way it ultimately ended with the invitation to play a game with Real-life statues that may be Angels is better).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 03, 2020, 07:24:04 PM
I'm tempted to say "He lost me at..."

Quote
SALLY SPARROW. Early twenties, very pretty, just a bit
mad, just a bit dangerous. She's staring at the house,
eyes shining. Big naughty grin.

SALLY: Sexy!

...but I know I'm going to read the rest despite.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on November 08, 2020, 01:00:25 PM
He signed himself off as 'the former Steven Moffat'. What a guy.
Always liked Moffat's self-deprecating style of humour, particularly in his columns in Doctor Who Magazine where he would answer fans' questions. These columns alone are really funny and probably better than much of the Chibnall era (less pleasurable it may be to still be saying stuff like that at this point).

I often found his era a bit disappointing at the time, but have now come to realise there's such a gulf between that and the show being actively, unwatchably terrible.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 08, 2020, 09:34:41 PM
I just discovered Russell T. Davies wrote three episodes of Chucklevision.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 08, 2020, 10:07:41 PM
I just discovered Russell T. Davies wrote three episodes of Chucklevision.

I did not know this. Looked them up but none of them ring a bell. Wondered if the one where Barry bodyswapped with a spider was one of his but it wasn't.

I did discover that ChuckleVision has a wiki of its own. Some excerpts from the in depth plots of his episodes:
Quote
Barry keeps making too much noise with his crisps and then he can't stop laughing so Paul makes him watch outside and on top of a load of boxes, Barry ends up falling over because he can't see so Paul traps him in a sleeping bag with a balaclava on his head so he can't talk.
Quote
Paul starts to make some chicken moves and an old lady gives them a funny look.
Quote
Barry throws a scone onto a priceless painting, he tries to clean it off but ends up making the painting completley white. Paul tries to recreate it but instead draws a giant thumb, when the butler comes in he suggests croque the two go off for a game just as the butler see's the giant thumb painting on the top of the porch.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/chuchuchucklevision/images/e/e4/Rich_For_A_Day.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110720205322)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 08, 2020, 11:04:41 PM
Quote
Krytie TV
Lister keeps making too much noise with his crisps and then he can't stop laughing so Rimmer makes him watch outside and on top of a load of boxes, Lister ends up falling over because he can't see so Rimmer traps him in a sleeping bag with a balaclava on his head so he can't talk.

Quote
Cassandra
Rimmer starts to make some chicken moves and an old lady gives them a funny look.

Quote
Pete Part 2
Lister throws a scone onto a priceless painting, he tries to clean it off but ends up making the painting completley white. Rimmer tries to recreate it but instead draws a giant thumb, when Hollister comes in he suggests croque the two go off for a game just as Hollister see's the giant thumb painting on the top of the porch.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on November 09, 2020, 01:28:35 PM
A friend wrote for Chucklevision years ago, and told me that at the wrap party, the brothers came round and shook everyone's hand, thanking them by name, down to the lowliest. Then they left the party and sat in a caravan parked outside playing cards with their wives. I think both parts of this story reflect excellently on them.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 09, 2020, 03:56:42 PM
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/chuchuchucklevision/images/e/e4/Rich_For_A_Day.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110720205322)
This is a very funny image.

I actually thought Davies would have written the episode with this brilliant moment in (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1rvod7ioqs), but his work was a couple of series prior.
I grabbed some series from TVChaos and was pleasantly surprised that every episode has at least one utterly brilliant gag in it, despite being frequently quite tedious.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: grainger on November 09, 2020, 04:54:51 PM
It does!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on November 10, 2020, 01:20:36 PM
Got to say I do like that thumb gag.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 10, 2020, 09:53:36 PM
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/chuchuchucklevision/images/e/e4/Rich_For_A_Day.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110720205322)

Is that one of those security tags in Chucklebrother's hat?  Does he steal his costumes?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 10, 2020, 11:34:49 PM
Got to say I do like that thumb gag

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/1f/36/91/1f3691840e363818044a4e4c20f8c77f.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on November 11, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
wonderful.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 11, 2020, 05:28:43 PM
In another era, I really think the Chuckle Brothers could have been movie stars. They are my generation's Laurel and Hardy.


In Classic Doctor Who news, it seems likely that Season 8 is the next Blu-Ray release. Will be interesting to see how improved Terror of the Autons, The Mind of Evil and Colony in Space are.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 11, 2020, 05:33:04 PM
Insta-quiz! Why are the last spoken words of the Sixth Doctor so ludicrously appropriate, I find it amusing?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 11, 2020, 05:39:27 PM
In Classic Doctor Who news, it seems likely that Season 8 is the next Blu-Ray release. Will be interesting to see how improved Terror of the Autons, The Mind of Evil and Colony in Space are

Mmm, looking forward to the Eye of Axos in glorious hi-def.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 11, 2020, 07:41:52 PM
Not a massive fan of Axos as a story, but a great season otherwise. Be happy to add that to my collection.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on November 11, 2020, 08:26:54 PM
When I think of Axos I always think of Sue Perryman's (The Wife In Space) comment that their spaceship looks like both an enormous dick AND an enormous arsehole.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 12, 2020, 09:28:18 AM
Insta-quiz! Why are the last spoken words of the Sixth Doctor so ludicrously appropriate, I find it amusing?

A genuine, objectively-answerable question, by the way (albeit a bit cryptic)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 12, 2020, 09:59:57 AM
"Hm, these old crocs are wearing a bit thin . . . whoops!"

[slips on excerise bike pedal stabbing his ballbag on the chopper-style gearstick triggering regeneration]

"Quick, Mel - hide the spooooo . . ."




Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 12, 2020, 04:55:41 PM
No one? OK, to be fair I don't think I'd have got it either.

At the end of the final Hyperion scene in Terror Of The Vervoids - which chronologically is the Sixth Doctor's last appearance, as all the trial scenes and the events in The Ultimate Foe are set before it - the Doctor's final spoken words (he sings 'On With The Mottley' as the TARDIS dematerialises) are, in response to Mel saying "That's his idea of a compliment, comparing me to an elephant", "But so ludicrously appropriate, I find it amusing".

See what I did there.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on November 12, 2020, 05:16:26 PM
When does Dimensions In Time happen then
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 12, 2020, 07:16:13 PM
I think the books and audios would have something to say about that.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 12, 2020, 09:34:27 PM
When does Dimensions In Time happen then

About three different time zones.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 14, 2020, 01:26:15 PM
Zoom have some extra stock of the season 12 BluRay if anybody missed it...
https://www.zoom.co.uk/product/doctor_who_the_collection_season_12_limited_packaging_blu_ray
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 17, 2020, 09:51:36 AM
With 23rd November swinging round again, Outpost Gallifrey's annual Top Three Tournament - where the bestest Doctor Who story ever ever is decided by a couple of hundred fans voting through endless rounds of stories - has reached its final. This year there is much excitement that a Sylvester McCoy story has somehow survived to take its place among the line-up of more conventionally accepted classics :

The War Games
Inferno
Genesis of the Daleks
The Robots of Death
The Curse of Fenric
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
Heaven Sent

Last year Fenric and Remembrance Of The Daleks made it to the final, agonisingly splitting the McCoy vote and finishing in second and third place to Genesis. This time round it looks frighteningly like the McCoy fans have got their shit together! (though Remembrance is the better of the two stories by miles)

The only other story there that's not previously made the final (or indeed won the tournament) is Robots Of Death, which gets my vote - love me a bit of fancy-hatted lucanol bickering.

Anyway it's not too late to get over there and place your votes. And there's a plethora of voting stats available for your perusal on the tournament discussion thread! It's how we pass our days away in the merry old land of OG. 
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 17, 2020, 09:53:14 AM
It's not even called Outpost Gallifrey any more is it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on November 17, 2020, 11:35:54 AM
The War Games
Inferno
Genesis of the Daleks
The Robots of Death
The Curse of Fenric
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
Heaven Sent

'kin hell that's a joyless list, 3 stories set in World Wars and 2 more about Nazi analogues, would be off to scrub my brain with Carnival of Monsters & Love & Monsters after sitting through that lot
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on November 17, 2020, 11:36:55 AM
Carnival of Monsters & Love & Monsters

'kin hell this list is obsessed with monsters
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on November 17, 2020, 01:53:12 PM
The absences of The Time Meddler, The Mind Robber, Day of the Daleks, The Sea Devils, Invasion of the Dinosaurs, The Seeds of Doom, The Talons of Weng-Chiang, City of Death, Logopolis, The Caves of Androzani, The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, Gridlock, Midnight, Vincent and the Doctor, Listen and World Enough and Time should be bemoaned.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 17, 2020, 02:06:13 PM
The Seeds of Doom, The Talons of Weng-Chiang, City of Death, The Caves of Androzani and World Enough and Time are all past winners. Sometimes a more leftfield story picks up some momentum, but mostly it's one of the usual 'big hitters' that ends up on top. Kinda a few years ago was a nice exception, though every year before or since it's bombed out in the early rounds.


Those previous winners in full:

2019: Genesis of the Daleks
2018: World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls
2017: Heaven Sent
2016: The Caves of Androzani
2015: Inferno
2014: The Day of the Doctor
2013: The Power of the Daleks
2012: Kinda, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances (finished level on points)
2011: Genesis of the Daleks
2010: The War Games
2009: The Caves of Androzani
2008: The Seeds of Doom, The Caves of Androzani (finished level on points)
2007: Human Nature/The Family of Blood
2006: The Caves of Androzani
2005: The Caves of Androzani
2004: The Talons of Weng-Chiang
2003: Inferno
2002: City of Death
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 17, 2020, 04:16:15 PM
Pfft, we all know The Tomb of the Cybermen is the best story.

And there is only one story with blood on the title that should be vying for a top spot and it ain't The Family of Blood*

I am surprised The War Games is there. I've always had it in my Top 10 but I didn't think it was held in really high esteem.


*Family Is also a classic though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 17, 2020, 04:28:41 PM
I don’t mind what wins as long is it’s not the smug and overrated City of Death
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on November 17, 2020, 04:38:47 PM
The greatest Doctor Who story remains Pyramids of Mars. You people and your differing opinions make me sick.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 17, 2020, 04:42:18 PM
The Romans, The Time Meddler, The Myth Makers - basically, anything with Vicki in it!

Troughton's the best Doctor, but with some of the worst stories - hardly any historicals (which are the best!) and frigging 'bases under siege' over and over again.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 17, 2020, 04:44:16 PM
I am surprised The War Games is there. I've always had it in my Top 10 but I didn't think it was held in really high esteem..

It's Troughton's 'Abbey Road' - going out on top with a really long one.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 17, 2020, 04:52:03 PM
Carnival of Monsters & Love & Monsters

'kin hell this list is obsessed with monsters

And ampersands.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 17, 2020, 05:02:44 PM
It's Troughton's 'Abbey Road' - going out on top with a really long one.

Pertwee used to say that it only got longer when he took over!!


(https://sotcaa.org/history/sotcaa2000/editnews/images/fist_reb.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on November 17, 2020, 05:09:07 PM
And there is only one story with blood on the title that should be vying for a top spot and it ain't The Family of Blood*

I like The Stones of Blood - in fact I've watched two episodes of it this afternoon - but I wouldn't go that far.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on November 18, 2020, 01:23:13 AM
The Caves of Androzani is the Citizen Kane of Doctor Who.

There, I've said it. I don't know what it means but I've said it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 18, 2020, 08:07:35 PM
Never seen Citizen Kane but that does sound about right, I'd say.


City of Death, that's probably the Ice Cold in Alex of Doctor Who.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on November 18, 2020, 08:56:36 PM
The greatest Doctor Who story remains Pyramids of Mars.

This.  Probably.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on November 18, 2020, 08:57:23 PM
City of Death, that's probably the Ice Cold in Alex of Doctor Who.

They repurposed it for a lager advert??!!

"Exquisite!"
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Glebe on November 22, 2020, 04:33:12 PM
I wasn't sure where to post this and didn't want to start a new thread, but on a (kinda) Who-related note the 1981 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series has gotten a Blu-ray release (https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Hitchhikers-Guide-to-the-Galaxy-Blu-ray/209987/#Review)... according to that review it's an upscale and doesn't look great, which seems in line with one or two old Who releases that've gotten similar treatment I think.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 22, 2020, 04:47:32 PM
I like The Stones of Blood - in fact I've watched two episodes of it this afternoon - but I wouldn't go that far.

It starts off brilliantly, but all that stuff with the Megara, I can't be doing with it
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 22, 2020, 04:55:58 PM
I wasn't sure where to post this and didn't want to start a new thread, but on a (kinda) Who-related note the 1981 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series has gotten a Blu-ray release (https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Hitchhikers-Guide-to-the-Galaxy-Blu-ray/209987/#Review)... according to that review it's an upscale and doesn't look great, which seems in line with one or two old Who releases that've gotten similar treatment I think.

I'd say it is slightly better than the DVD but nowhere near the increase in quality you'd expect from such a release. Only buy it if it is cheap and you want the extras too.

The Doctor Who upscales in the collection range all look superb on Blu. The only Classic Who release which was poor on Blu-Ray was The TV Movie which was just the DVD master lazily upscaled which makes it look worse than the DVD. I look forward to the collection tackling The TV Movie and being able to upscale in the original US framerate.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 22, 2020, 05:00:22 PM
Quite a few Blu-ray disappointments supposedly, Day of the Triffids, Red Dwarf
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 22, 2020, 05:07:02 PM
Quite a few Blu-ray disappointments supposedly, Day of the Triffids, Red Dwarf

Day of the Triffids was in the choices made for it rather than lack of effort. Don't remember exactly what the issue was as I didn't buy it myself but I think it was that they filmised the video sections to align with the film sections with the idea being that it would be consistent. The choice wasn't popular and you'd hope that the department has learned a lesson.

Red Dwarf is overstated when people talk it down. It had a full remaster with picture repair. Series III looks better than it ever has. Series V and VI look great. II and IV look good. I is meh. VII and VIII don't look much different. It was the issues with the original III and V discs that took them ages to fix that caused a lot of consternation about the release.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 22, 2020, 06:17:38 PM
Imagine bothering to release series 8 of Red Dwarf on blu ray
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 23, 2020, 07:59:47 AM
The Web of Fear Episode 3 getting the animation treatment with a Blu-Ray/DVD release next year.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on November 23, 2020, 09:49:38 AM
The Web of Fear Episode 3 getting the animation treatment with a Blu-Ray/DVD release next year.

So £20 for one new animated episode? Is there at least a documentary or something?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Glebe on November 23, 2020, 10:07:23 AM
I'd say it is slightly better than the DVD but nowhere near the increase in quality you'd expect from such a release. Only buy it if it is cheap and you want the extras too.

The Doctor Who upscales in the collection range all look superb on Blu. The only Classic Who release which was poor on Blu-Ray was The TV Movie which was just the DVD master lazily upscaled which makes it look worse than the DVD. I look forward to the collection tackling The TV Movie and being able to upscale in the original US framerate.

Ah right. Maybe it was only one review I saw, got 2/5 stars on Blu-ray.com.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on November 23, 2020, 10:53:06 AM
Trailer for Web


https://youtube.com/watch?v=BsG6QRSpS40
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 23, 2020, 11:17:18 AM
So £20 for one new animated episode? Is there at least a documentary or something?

It will no doubt get the full SE treatment just like The Enemy of the World and The Power of the Daleks. New full restoration, new animation, new telesnap recon, new documentary and loads of archive stuff.

Already seen some scoffing about this release from fans. They don't seem to understand that the collection season releases couldn't afford new animations, restorations, documentaries all at the same time. Animations need to be paid for on their own and if we can get the restoration sorted as well as the documentary for Web then that opens up the budget for the Season 5 set to concentrate on other areas.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 23, 2020, 12:46:13 PM
Red Dwarf is overstated when people talk it down. It had a full remaster with picture repair. Series III looks better than it ever has. Series V and VI look great. II and IV look good. I is meh. VII and VIII don't look much different. It was the issues with the original III and V discs that took them ages to fix that caused a lot of consternation about the release.
They gave it a colour grade that washed out the original lighting, only a year after they'd done a special feature on the XII Blu Ray about how important John Pomphrey's use of lightning and colour gave the show its distinctive atmosphere.
I suppose the fact that Thank for the Memory is called Thanks for the Memories on the menu also suggested a certain lack of attention to detail that it deserved.


Back to books...
Doctor Who and the Casual Person's Idea of What a Doctor Who Story Looks Like All Consuming Fire by Andy Lane
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2d/All-Consuming_Fire.JPG)

The Doctor. Sherlock Holmes. A religious idol. Some weird shaped alien... thing. What could be going on here?!
Actually, it's the first cover in ages that does a good job of illustrating the actual story, rather than a random scene from it. The whole thing is written as a Sherlock Holmes novel - as recounted by Watson - and Lane does a reasonable job of approximating Conan-Doyle's style. He, of course, went on to write the Young Sherlock Holmes books, so is clearly a big fan of the originals. Apparently, in the Whoniverse, Holmes and Watson are a real duo, albeit with different names. Conan-Doyle is a friend, who tidies up Watson's diaries into more novelistic style, and the three share the profits. I'm not sure this entirely ties in with the Fourth Doctor meeting C-D in Evolution (even though this is directly referenced), but it's a just-about-plausible way to crowbar Doctor Who into a Sherlock Holmes novel.
Holmes and Watson may not have been canonised into the Whoniverse, but the Lovecraft mythos is. Here we have the infamous explanation from The Doctor about how the Great Old Ones were from a past universe, explaining just who Yog Sothoth and such are. Whether The Great Intelligence, Animus, Fenric, etc. really need to be explained as part of this is something I'm not sure about yet: I don't mind it, specifically, but it maybe seems a touch too... I'm not even sure. It just seems unnecessary, maybe.
The Azathoth in this book turns out to just be a pretender, so that's at least one we haven't actually met yet. The story itself is nicely twisty-turny, starting out with some stolen books and a strange alien creature at a dog fight, before heading to India to stop a British colonial army adding another planet to its empire, and ending up on Ry'leh to stop the reverse happening. It's pacy and pretty fun. There are references to past stories, but none of them feel like fanwank (the Doctor lodging with Jago & Litefoot made me smile). The characters are mostly spot-on: the first third of the book is pretty much Watson and Holmes's story, while Benny becomes the main driving force of the remainder. The Doctor is given a supporting role, always there but rarely opening up too much information; his mysterious nature and behind-the-scenes plotting is really brought to the fore with a story told from the perspective of someone who's never met him before.
Overall, very enjoyable.

There may now be a wait while I try and locate my copy of Blood Harvest, which has gone walkabout.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 23, 2020, 08:17:19 PM
With 23rd November swinging round again, Outpost Gallifrey's annual Top Three Tournament - where the bestest Doctor Who story ever ever is decided by a couple of hundred fans voting through endless rounds of stories - has reached its final. This year there is much excitement that a Sylvester McCoy story has somehow survived to take its place among the line-up of more conventionally accepted classics :

The War Games
Inferno
Genesis of the Daleks
The Robots of Death
The Curse of Fenric
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
Heaven Sent

Last year Fenric and Remembrance Of The Daleks made it to the final, agonisingly splitting the McCoy vote and finishing in second and third place to Genesis. This time round it looks frighteningly like the McCoy fans have got their shit together!

Or maybe not:

1 The Robots of Death = 217pts
2 The Curse of Fenric = 205pts
3 The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances = 176pts
4 Genesis of the Daleks = 152pts
5 Heaven Sent = 148pts
6 The War Games = 140pts
7 Inferno = 114pts

Quote
The only other story there that's not previously made the final (or indeed won the tournament) is Robots Of Death, which gets my vote - love me a bit of fancy-hatted lucanol bickering

Yay.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on November 24, 2020, 07:07:31 PM
Toby Hadoke has launched a few dozen Doctor Who podcasts, it seems, each with a different focus.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 24, 2020, 07:42:31 PM
As long as he's written his contributions to Running Through Corridors vol.3 I don't care what he does
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 24, 2020, 07:44:38 PM
Good news everyone!

The 50th Anniversary set (which is out of print & going for hundreds of quid) is getting a steelbook (https://www.doctorwho.tv/news/?article=anniversary-special-doctor-who-bluray-steelbook) release -

(https://i.imgur.com/wf06b16.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/oZaU7NW.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on November 24, 2020, 11:13:39 PM
Also limited edition.

Fuckoff fuckoff fuckoff fuckoff fuckoff fuckoff fuckoff fuckoff you absolute utter cunts.


P.S. Thanks for letting us know.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 24, 2020, 11:36:23 PM
Or maybe not:

1 The Robots of Death = 217pts

And both the star and the director thought the script was complete dogshit!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 24, 2020, 11:49:58 PM
worth it though to get everything lined up with the new Chibnall logo innit


simply think of your shelf all corrected into the Chibnall history of the show.  very pleasing
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on November 25, 2020, 06:27:22 AM
Pretty.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnpLYMXVkAAZ4nh?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 25, 2020, 09:40:21 AM
8 discs is mad for a five story season. Sounds like Daemons will get an omnibus edition which will be one of the bonus discs. The other bonus disc could be Return to Devil's End if they've got the rights.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on November 25, 2020, 09:50:24 AM
I'm almost certainly an outlier on here, but I'm not a fan of the Pertwee era in general, and the UNIT/Master stories in particular, so it's a no from me I'm afraid. That cover should come with a trigger warning.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 25, 2020, 11:17:15 AM
Trailer. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2NID_9KcWw)

Quote
With all episodes newly remastered, this Blu-ray box set also contains extensive and exclusive special features including:

❉ Behind the Sofa – New episodes with Katy Manning, Stewart Bevan, Janet Fielding, Sarah Sutton, Sacha Dhawan and Anjli Mohindra.
❉ In Conversation – Matthew Sweet chats to companion Katy Manning.
❉ A Devils Weekend – Actors Katy Manning and John Levene take a personal trip back to the picturesque village of Aldbourne, 50 years after they recorded the Doctor Who story The Daemons there.
❉ The Direct Route – Doctor Who directors Michael Briant, Graeme Harper and Tim Combe take an epic road trip to all the filming locations from Season 8 as they discuss directing the show in the early 1970s.
❉ Terrance and Me – Lifelong Doctor Who fan, Frank Skinner sets out to meet the family, friends and colleagues of the late, much-loved writer, Terrance Dicks.
❉ Blu-Ray trailer – A specially shot mini-episode
❉ Extended Episode 1 of The Claws of Axos
❉ 90 minute omnibus edition of The Daemons
❉ Immersive 5.1 surround sound on Terror of the Autons and The Daemons
❉ Optional updated special effects and CSO clean-up on Terror of the Autons
❉ Unseen studio footage
❉ Rare archive treats
❉ Convention footage
❉ HD photo galleries
❉ Scripts, costume designs, rare BBC production files
❉ And lots more!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on November 25, 2020, 12:16:50 PM
I was going to do a Pertwee rewatch soon but I'm considering doing the whole classic era all the way through. I've seen/heard everything but not in order.

I'd really like this, especially the omnibus version of the Daemons, wish every release had the omnibus versions. It can get annoying watching a 6 parter and having to fast forward all the titles, credits and recaps.

I'll keep money aside for this set, I'm always skint when they're released and then the price goes up to stupid money.  I've been enjoying these special trailers for the sets as well, hope they keep them up.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 25, 2020, 01:44:01 PM
Ah, lovely. Got a few months to save up for that, whacked a pre-order in on Amazon in case everywhere else sells out before I can put the cash aside. Glad these are finally up and running again.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 25, 2020, 01:57:47 PM
Yes, the good thing about Amazon is that they only charge when they send it (plus if the price drops at any time before the release, you get the lowest price)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on November 25, 2020, 02:16:15 PM
I'd really like this, especially the omnibus version of the Daemons, wish every release had the omnibus versions. It can get annoying watching a 6 parter and having to fast forward all the titles, credits and recaps.

The Collection sets have included all the ones produced for BBC broadcast so far, apart from the 1982 two-part version of Genesis of the Daleks, since there's already a 90-minute version on the disc, and The Sontaran Experiment and The Robots of Death, when they just double-billed the episodes and cut the extra titles and recaps out.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 25, 2020, 02:23:08 PM
I'd really like this, especially the omnibus version of the Daemons, wish every release had the omnibus versions. It can get annoying watching a 6 parter and having to fast forward all the titles, credits and recaps

You don't watch all the titles, credits and recaps? Sacrilege!

A nice season with no out-and-out disappointments, which sets the template for the classic 'UNIT years'.

Terror Of The Autons has plenty of fantastic moments (of which the unmasking of the Auton policeman is my favourite), but they don't knit together especially well and the atmosphere is nowhere near as sinister as that of Spearhead From Space. The Mind Of Evil is a nice hangover from the grittier style of season 7 that benefits from the mind parasite remaining a faceless entity rather then manifesting as someone in a monster suit. Claws Of Axos is glorious, I could watch it over and over. Colony In Space would have made a great 4-part story if it had been restricted to the colonists versus IMC. The ruthless Dent is one of the series' most underrated adversaries. I don't think I've watched the Daemons since the BBC2 repeat in the 90's, must rectify that. It's probably the best UNIT story in terms of the whole squad and their chummy bantz. The opening chapters of Barry Letts' Target adaptation are excellent, really accentuating the folkloric atmosphere.

Of course it goes without saying that in all of the stories, Roger Delgado is phenomenal for every second of his screen time.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on November 25, 2020, 04:35:35 PM
Of course it goes without saying that in all of the stories, Roger Delgado is phenomenal for every second of his screen time.

I know some people won't like this, but he's really the only version of the Master that I like. Everyone else plays it like a panto villain. Delgado is like an East End gangster. The only other person who felt like they had any danger to them was Derek Jacobi, but we only got him for 5 minutes.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on November 25, 2020, 04:42:38 PM
I know some people won't like this, but he's really the only version of the Master that I like. Everyone else plays it like a panto villain. Delgado is like an East End gangster. The only other person who felt like they had any danger to them was Derek Jacobi, but we only got him for 5 minutes.

I think that's valid. There's that scene in Mind of Evil where he levels an actual shotgun at the Doctor that is the most menacing he's been for my money. Something about it being a real-world weapon rather than his Tissue Compression Eliminator.

(https://whobackwhen.com/wp-content/uploads/the-master-uses-pertwee-for-target-practice-mind-of-evil-doctor-who-back-when.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 25, 2020, 04:49:28 PM
I think the same - John Simm's a great actor but I wasn't arsed about him as the Master
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 25, 2020, 05:03:52 PM
He may have been a Master but Delgado was the Master - the definitive article, you might say.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 25, 2020, 05:08:47 PM
Although I love Anthony Ainley in Survival and wish his Master hadn't been treated like a joke
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 25, 2020, 05:31:56 PM
Yes, he's utterly brilliant in Survival. If his entire story had been cut down to the Regeneration trilogy, the two Kamelion stories and Survival he would have been great - still nowhere near Delgado level, but still a largely credible villain. It's those other Davison appearances and the Colin ones which just kill any chance of him being taken seriously. Plus, after five and a half years, his appearance in Survival would have been such a surprise.

John Simm was alright, although on the whole I don't like the wacky version of the character that started with his version. His best moment for me was, tellingly, World Enough and Time, in which he was basically doing a Delgado impression, right down to the beard. Much more underplayed and far more sinister for it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on November 25, 2020, 06:11:46 PM
Yes, he's utterly brilliant in Survival. If his entire story had been cut down to the Regeneration trilogy, the two Kamelion stories and Survival he would have been great - still nowhere near Delgado level, but still a largely credible villain.

I think King's Demons would still be a massive blow to his credibility. "Who could this man who looks like a slightly aged version of The Master be? My god, it's The Master!"
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Thomas on November 25, 2020, 06:39:47 PM
I think the same - John Simm's a great actor but I wasn't arsed about him as the Master

Can't find the quotes now, but I think Simm has expressed a bit of regret at how he played the Master. I seem to recall that RTD instructed more wackiness, to Simm's reluctance. The scruffy dyed blond hair was something he also seemed to regret.

He got the chance to be colder, more menacing, and goateed in his return for series 10. I think he did have some great moments in series 3, when he gets to play angry (berating his Cabinet of traitors) and quiet (phonecall with the Doctor).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 25, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
Yeah, RTD really buggered up Simm’s Master. You can tell he’s trying to tone it down in The End of Time as well, but he’s written so utterly bonkers that he can’t escape it. Even when he’s trying to be all menacing, they keep using that cheesy skeleton effect which cheapens it. I’m glad he got a chance to come back and make things right.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 25, 2020, 08:58:56 PM
I think King's Demons would still be a massive blow to his credibility. "Who could this man who looks like a slightly aged version of The Master be? My god, it's The Master!"
I only include it because it sets up Planet of Fire. If that story could be re-written to get rid of the whole Kamelion setup then yes, it could be axed.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 25, 2020, 11:33:53 PM
Was Ainley’s Master supposed to resemble Delgado’s Master for a clever reason, or was it just a lack of imagination on the part of the production team?

If the producers of the show had had the same approach in the 60s when working out how to replace Hartnell, Doctor Who would never have survived into the 70s.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Thomas on November 25, 2020, 11:50:20 PM
Was Ainley’s Master supposed to resemble Delgado’s Master for a clever reason, or was it just a lack of imagination on the part of the production team?

Perhaps they were reluctant to drift from that striking, bearded image of the Master - especially as poor Delgado was lost so suddenly and unexpectedly - and wanted to reinforce to the audience that this was a continuation of that same slick-haired villain.

As you say, though, they never had to do anything like that with the Doctor (until the crappy question mark motif showed up around the same time).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 25, 2020, 11:54:40 PM
Was Ainley’s Master supposed to resemble Delgado’s Master for a clever reason, or was it just a lack of imagination on the part of the production team?

Are you familiar with the concept of John Nathan-Turner
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 26, 2020, 12:05:19 AM
Yeah, it's kind of strange that Ainley was basically a poor attempt at Delgado 2.0, and all the new series Masters have followed the same unhinged, Joker-style supervillain model, when The Doctor has always undergone radical changes from incarnation to incarnation. For all its flaws, at least the Movie managed to portray him as a different type of villain, albeit an unoriginal one with some real continuity issues.

That said, Sacha Dhawan is the most attractive Master to date.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 26, 2020, 12:16:27 AM
Michelle Gomez can eliminate my compressed tissue any day of the week
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 26, 2020, 07:58:52 AM
Yeah, it's kind of strange that Ainley was basically a poor attempt at Delgado 2.0, and all the new series Masters have followed the same unhinged, Joker-style supervillain model, when The Doctor has always undergone radical changes from incarnation to incarnation. For all its flaws, at least the Movie managed to portray him as a different type of villain, albeit an unoriginal one with some real continuity issues.

That said, Sacha Dhawan is the most attractive Master to date.

The Master has always, I think, worked best when the original concept of being the Doctor’s opposite has been understood by the producers of the time.

Delgado was a perfect match/opposite for Pertwee’s Doctor, Simm for Tennant and Gomez for Capaldi.

Ainley breaks the mould by spanning so many different incarnations of the Doctor.  It makes the 80s feel very compressed to have one Master for T Baker, Davison, C Baker and McCoy.  He can’t form a meaningful connection with any of them, and it doesn’t feel like his casting had Davison in mind, which it should have done.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 26, 2020, 09:52:55 AM
In universe it kind of makes sense that Ainley is similar to Delgado. Delgado doesn't regenerate as he had none left so just deteriorated and then took over somebody's body.

Roberts\Jacobi could even still be Delgado Masters really unless you go by Big Finish.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Thomas on November 26, 2020, 10:13:16 AM
The Master has always, I think, worked best when the original concept of being the Doctor’s opposite has been understood by the producers of the time.

Delgado was a perfect match/opposite for Pertwee’s Doctor, Simm for Tennant and Gomez for Capaldi.

Ainley breaks the mould by spanning so many different incarnations of the Doctor.  It makes the 80s feel very compressed to have one Master for T Baker, Davison, C Baker and McCoy.  He can’t form a meaningful connection with any of them, and it doesn’t feel like his casting had Davison in mind, which it should have done.

Interesting point, Replies. In all the non-Ainley cases, the Master is tailored to oppose the incumbent Doctor in the most fitting way possible. Sacha Dhawan is good in the role, too, but I don't buy some of the character's actions (his mass slaughter of all the Time Lords, over a rather feeble grievance - and apparently the first grievance in his life to provoke enough ire - doesn't sit right).

It is touching how much Ainley loved the role (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Ainley#Doctor_Who):

Quote
Ainley's great love of the role is often cited in documentaries and DVD commentaries. Script editor Eric Saward claimed that he introduced himself over the phone by saying "This is the Master" and then would laugh. In the commentary and documentary for The Mark of the Rani, both Colin Baker and Kate O'Mara say that "He only ever wanted to play the Master." Baker remarked that he could afford this luxury because he had built up a private income by the mid-1980s and had inherited a considerable sum of money from his father. In "Cat Flap: Making of Survival", Sylvester McCoy confirms that all he ever wanted to be is the Master, and he kept his role active, even off set. "He was as scary off camera as he was on it."
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 26, 2020, 10:48:44 AM
Sacha Dhawan is in the quite unique position of needing to be the perfect binary opposite of a puff of air that comes out of opening a packet of crisps.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 26, 2020, 11:12:16 AM
To me he seems like he's been written to play opposite Matt Smith rather than Jodie. Young with an odd, nervous energy.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 26, 2020, 11:13:40 AM
With regard to Ainley's incarnation I always thought it was entirely correct that while the Doctor darted between different personalities, the Master remained essentially the same person. If we're talking D&D then the Doctor is chaotic good while his nemesis is lawful evil. Unfortunately, although Ainley's take worked well with Tom Baker it didn't take long for the panto excesses to surface in his stories with Davison. Hardly surprising I suppose given that the Producer seemed more interested in making pantos than Doctor Who.

I can see why RTD essentially reinvented the character and went for the 'unhinged psychotic' angle, it was what was going on with movie villains at the time. Missy was a laudable attempt to blend the two approaches.

I plucked The Keeper Of Traken off the shelf the other day and watched a couple of episodes, Geoffrey Beevers has a gloriously sinister voice.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 26, 2020, 11:43:31 AM
I plucked The Keeper Of Traken off the shelf the other day and watched a couple of episodes, Geoffrey Beevers has a gloriously sinister voice.

He's great - he was the Big Finish Master for many years - now there's loads of the buggers (even old matey from the 1996 movie is working for them now!)

A good showcase is Master (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-master-215) (main range #49) from 2003 - featuring Beevers and the 7th Doctor. You can sample it for free on Spotify. (alternatively, the downloads currently on sale for just £1.49 from the Big Finish - as are all the 1-100 (https://www.bigfinish.com/ranges/v/monthly-series?sort_ordering=date_asc&search_product_type=&search_availability=all) stories at the moment)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 26, 2020, 03:55:21 PM
Since I'm really bored, here's how old matey from the 1996 movie scrubs up :

(https://i.imgur.com/2MKpwGZ.jpg)

And those eight Big Finish Masters in Full - plus the ninth that turned out to be so Evil, he's been shot out of the official canon :

(https://i.imgur.com/HxYHd5l.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/skq3tWQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on November 26, 2020, 04:19:32 PM
I would be very happy to see an Alex McQueen Master on TV.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 26, 2020, 04:22:48 PM
With regard to Ainley's incarnation I always thought it was entirely correct that while the Doctor darted between different personalities, the Master remained essentially the same person. If we're talking D&D then the Doctor is chaotic good while his nemesis is lawful evil. Unfortunately, although Ainley's take worked well with Tom Baker it didn't take long for the panto excesses to surface in his stories with Davison. Hardly surprising I suppose given that the Producer seemed more interested in making pantos than Doctor Who.

And they were always flops as well. How do you fuck up a panto? Especially when it was your nous with money that got you the producer's job in the first place?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on November 26, 2020, 04:22:50 PM
Also, given how much stuff Eric Roberts is in nowadays, I remain 99 % sure he'd have a go at TV Who.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 26, 2020, 04:44:10 PM
To me he seems like he's been written to play opposite Matt Smith rather than Jodie. Young with an odd, nervous energy.

I have Benedict Cumberbatch too fixed in my mind as the Eleventh Doctor's Master for me to accept anyone else.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 26, 2020, 04:47:17 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/2MKpwGZ.jpg)

"Hello I am Michelle Gomez now.  Michelle Gomezes are cool."
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 26, 2020, 04:49:06 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/HxYHd5l.jpg)

oh god Mark Gatiss is in there


let me guess - he wrote that one.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on November 26, 2020, 04:49:17 PM
In universe it kind of makes sense that Ainley is similar to Delgado. Delgado doesn't regenerate as he had none left so just deteriorated and then took over somebody's body.

Roberts\Jacobi could even still be Delgado Masters really unless you go by Big Finish.

Aye, that’s true, the body is that is Nyssa’s dad, not a regenerated body at all.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on November 26, 2020, 04:58:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/HxYHd5l.jpg)

Why is Alex McQueen's head so big here?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 26, 2020, 05:19:38 PM
oh god Mark Gatiss is in there


let me guess - he wrote that one.

Heh - no it's alright, he's just acting in it! *

Actually, Gatiss has only penned a couple of stories for Big Finish - Phantasmagoria (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-phantasmagoria-620) back in 1999, and 'Invaders from Mars (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-invaders-from-mars-652)' in 2002 - that one might be of interest to Spaced fans as it has both Simon Pegg and Jessica Stevenson in the cast.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* He's the 'Unbound Universe' Master - opposite David Warner as the 'Unbound Doctor' in a couple of recent Bernice Summerfield boxed sets.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: TwinPeaks on November 26, 2020, 05:55:38 PM
And those eight Big Finish Masters in Full - plus the ninth that turned out to be so Evil, he's been shot out of the official canon :
Glad they quickly backtracked on the "first Master" thing. He was meant to be just in the First Doctor Adventures which is a David Bradley reimagining of that era so I'm not sure why they brought the transphobe cunt into the "real" timeline of the main range anyway
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 26, 2020, 06:29:42 PM

And those eight Big Finish Masters in Full - plus the ninth that turned out to be so Evil, he's been shot out of the official canon :

(https://i.imgur.com/HxYHd5l.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/skq3tWQ.jpg)

They should get Graham Linehan to replace him.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 26, 2020, 08:32:16 PM
Heh - no it's alright, he's just acting in it! *

Actually, Gatiss has only penned a couple of stories for Big Finish - Phantasmagoria (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-phantasmagoria-620) back in 1999, and 'Invaders from Mars (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-invaders-from-mars-652)' in 2002 - that one might be of interest to Spaced fans as it has both Simon Pegg and Jessica Stevenson in the cast.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* He's the 'Unbound Universe' Master - opposite David Warner as the 'Unbound Doctor' in a couple of recent Bernice Summerfield boxed sets.

Astonished that Mark Gatiss would have been a Master of some kind without also penning it himself.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 26, 2020, 08:34:34 PM
Glad they quickly backtracked on the "first Master" thing. He was meant to be just in the First Doctor Adventures which is a David Bradley reimagining of that era so I'm not sure why they brought the transphobe cunt into the "real" timeline of the main range anyway

I suppose Mark Gatiss is also the Third Doctor through the David Bradley connection.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 26, 2020, 08:41:54 PM
Glad they quickly backtracked on the "first Master" thing. He was meant to be just in the First Doctor Adventures which is a David Bradley reimagining of that era so I'm not sure why they brought the transphobe cunt into the "real" timeline of the main range anyway

I believe The Psychic Circus was recorded but not yet released when his transphobia was highlighted and they cut ties. I'm not sure if it was announced either as I seem to remember a backlash about it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 26, 2020, 08:44:10 PM
Sorry I’ve lost the thread a bit - who’s the transphobe?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on November 26, 2020, 09:03:19 PM
Sorry I’ve lost the thread a bit - who’s the transphobe?

James Dreyfus who played "the first Master".
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 26, 2020, 09:05:37 PM
Note that his image is on the cover of the 'The Psychic Circus', but not his name.

This was because he blotted his copybook on Twitter between the recording of the story and it's release. It was too late to pull the story, as the CDs were already pressed up, but the cover was changed.


Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 26, 2020, 09:15:23 PM
Oh! Well I'd never have recognised him from that cover. Don't think I've seen him since about 1996. Did they get Constable Habib in as the Rani?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on November 26, 2020, 09:20:37 PM
Did they get Constable Habib in as the Rani?

Heh - no, Siobhán Redmond (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-rani-elite-866) is Big Finish's current Rani - and a fairly restrained spinoff at only two stories.

(apologies for turning this into the Audio thread!)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 26, 2020, 09:34:06 PM
I remember when they did a special shit version of Willo the Wisp where they decided to use James Dreyfus as Willo the Wisp:

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rYaN6tSf5PQ/TsDoBwPQuhI/AAAAAAAABqU/Ioiv_BsF6wU/s1600/Screen+shot+2011-11-14+at+09.46.00.png)


Yes well worth caricaturing this fellow when you redesign Willo the Wisp.  Such a recognisable visage.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BNTQzNjMwNzgyM15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNTU4NTgwOA@@._V1_.jpg)




Hadn't heard about the transphobia before now, but when you've ruined Willo the Wisp you're already cancelled.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on November 26, 2020, 10:09:13 PM
That's James Dreyfus? Shit!

(https://i.imgur.com/skq3tWQ.jpg)

Looking at that I had him down as some hard nut Glaswegian type actor.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 26, 2020, 10:50:03 PM
And all the other likenesses are from 1988 but that's him now, which is just odd.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Billy on November 27, 2020, 10:46:46 PM
If anyone's been following the 29(!) year history of Doctor Who fan film Devious, Episode 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRFn3N8ByjY) was recently released on YouTube, joining Episode 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6KgHZgEvd8) a couple years back. The story behind it is pretty incredible, they started filming it in 1991 and carried on until about the mid 2000s, and after over a decade of post-production are currently releasing one episode online on average about once a year, with ultra-modern CGI and effects doing their absolute best to spruce up the original blurry VHS camcorder footage.

It's basically just a load of amdram fans messing about on tape during the wilderness years with an older actor playing the Doctor (a secret incarnation set between Troughton and Pertwee), so will hardly win any BAFTAs anytime soon, but from an editing point of view it's surprisingly fascinating to watch - characters suddenly age fifteen years and back mid-conversation as they cross between shots, meaning haircuts switch from 90s to noughties styles, weights gain and fall and you can basically tell when the scene was filmed by how grey the Doctor's hair is (see also Clarkson and May in Top Gear repeats on Dave). They've clearly ADRed a hell of a lot of it many years later to stop the outdoor scenes being an inaudible mumble of wind noise and tape hiss (some bits working better than others), and the modern CGI they've used looks genuinely impressive given that the actors are reacting to thin air at a time when Atari STs and Amigas were the pinnacle of home computer technology. Most famously, Jon Pertwee makes an appearance in the serial's yet-to-be-finished final episode as it was filmed back in 1995, which got it a lot of attention from the fan community and that one scene made it on one of the official DVDs about a decade ago, The War Games I think.

Yeah there's lots of clunky line readings and a rather confusing plot so far, but fair play on the cast and crew who are now well into their fifties and older who've been working on this for most of their entire lives - it's a nice amount of dedication for something that started out as a bit of fun, and gives me hope that those unfinished Who fanfics I wrote as a teenager circa 2005 will also eventually get completed someday.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 27, 2020, 11:01:24 PM
Maybe I'm being unfair but I'm always a bit baffled by that sort of thing. I mean the entire British Broadcasting Corporation with all of its resources often struggled to make Doctor Who that wasn't shit and wasn't a joke - are you really going to be able to do it with three of your mates and a camcorder?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2020, 11:01:41 PM
And all the other likenesses are from 1988 but that's him now, which is just odd.

To be fair he would have been about 15.


Edit:  checked, and he'd have been 20 in 1988.  Same difference.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on November 27, 2020, 11:05:08 PM
Yeah to be fair I suppose it doesn't matter what he looks like then or now because he wasn't in it in the first place (Greatest Show in the Galaxy I mean)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on November 27, 2020, 11:14:05 PM
That's James Dreyfus? Shit!

One of his better reviews.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2020, 11:19:50 PM
Yeah to be fair I suppose it doesn't matter what he looks like then or now because he wasn't in it in the first place (Greatest Show in the Galaxy I mean)

Maybe it's a tribute to Devious, with all the actors stemming from different decades of their own life.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on November 28, 2020, 01:44:32 PM
The Doctor Who Site have competitions to win BluRay boxes of seasons 12 and 14, if anybody's interested.
https://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/competition-win-a-doctor-who-season-12-blu-ray-set/
https://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/competition-win-a-doctor-who-season-14-blu-ray-set/
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on December 01, 2020, 09:58:42 AM
Doctor Who - Rose by Russell T. Davies - A fast, fun read where Davies adds to the story of his first ever Who story, largely by fleshing out the characters of Rose, Mickey and Doctor-obsessive Clive Finch, and by making the final battle at the end with the Autons invading London much, much bigger, to the extent that the death count would have been pretty brutal if televised, and would probably have had to be shown after the watershed. It's really enjoyable stuff even if you know the plot well, Davies paces it effectively, and my only real complaint is that Jackie didn't die Davies didn't give the Doctor a little more coverage, but other than that it was something I was very fond of it in general. 3.75/5
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on December 02, 2020, 10:24:26 PM
Clayton Hickman on Twitter is doing his own Who themed advent calender.
Quote
40+ restored & remastered TARDIS set photos over 25 days, covering 25 seasons of Old Testament #DoctorWho. Includes 10 new colourisations and a bunch of previously-unseen images.

It’ll be quite nice, honest

Day 1 is the first episode

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoI-IOQW4AESfbb?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoI-IORW4AAL-3K?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

Day 2 is from The Chase

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoOH-JAXYAE_6Fg?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

I've reduced the size of these, as they're massive, but they're well worth looking at full size.

https://twitter.com/claytonhickman/status/1334059436491550720?s=20
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on December 06, 2020, 01:17:17 PM
Doctor Who and More Bloody Vampires Blood Harvest by Terrance Dicks
(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1519083068l/875814._SY475_.jpg)

I hate vampires. I don't know why. Just nothing about them has ever appealed to me. No horror tale involving vampires has scared me or grabbed my attention. Even when I used to watch Buffy, I'd get really bored during the vampire stories, waiting for one of the many monster-of-the-week episodes to come along. I didn't particularly rate Goth Opera, the sequel to this, when it came around as the first MA during my Davison run. I don't really enjoy State of Decay, which this is a sequel to. So my hopes here weren't high. Especially as Dicks doesn't have the best reputation when it comes to books (especially the BBC PDAs which I've read). And when it opened in the style of a first person Hard Boiled Crime style book, I almost thought about giving it up.

Thankfully, once it gets going, it's a decent little story. Benny is in E-Space with Romana, investigating why vampires have returned to the State of Decay planet, as they also try to introduce a British-style parliament system to the planet. It starts slow, but in the second half of the book it picks up pace and is a lot of fun. You can see the first hints of Dicks's later utter nonsense (think Warmonger) in the other part of the story, in which The Doctor installs himself as a speakeasy owner called Doc in Prohibition-era Chicago, working alongside Al Capone, a PI called Dekker, and his bodyguard 'The Lady in Black' (Ace, of course) to investigate who's trying to stir up violence in the city. Thankfully it's - mostly - done with a lightness of touch that makes it a silly romp. It almost comes off the rails at one point, in which The Doctor storms a brothel, shooting a sawn-off shotgun all over the place, trying to rescue Ace who has been captured, stripped to her underwear, and is about to be raped. It's been a while since a NA had a pervy Ace moment, so this was a nice reminder of how tasteless the series can be.

A denouement on Gallifrey ties the two stories together with some borderline interesting/fanwank nonsense about bringing Borusa back, followed by a couple of hints to what will happen in Goth Opera. It's far from a top-tier book, but after a shaky start it becomes pretty readable and a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on December 06, 2020, 09:52:01 PM
Good to have you back, purlieu, thanks for continuing with the books.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on December 06, 2020, 11:46:43 PM
I'm spending a lot less time online these days, but I always enjoy sharing my journey through these books here!
Actually been barely reading lately for various reasons, but I tore through the second half of this in a couple of hours this morning, hoping to get back to reading at that kind of speed again so should be getting through them quicker now. That said, I need to keep my purchases up to the same speed...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on December 07, 2020, 12:02:57 AM
There's a torrent with PDFs of every Who novel out there somewhere, that's how I finally read Alien Bodies. No good for those averse to ebooks I suppose.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on December 07, 2020, 12:50:00 AM
I've got most of them as eBooks, but no eReader, and reading them on my phone takes some of the pleasure away. I'll certainly be doing that for some of the later NAs that still go for ludicrous sums of money, but if I can afford the actual paperbacks I'm going to try and buy them.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Thomas on December 07, 2020, 08:18:46 PM
I watched The Great Escape yesterday, and was pleased to see William Russell appear. Such a shame they've never had him back considering he's been alive as long as a Time Lord. As Replies often laments, the fiftieth would have been the perfect time for a gentle, understated conversation between Matt Smith's Doctor and the elderly Ian. At least the Brig was able to muck about in The Sarah Jane Adventures.

It always strikes me as odd that they got Jacqueline Hill back in 1980, but only to play some one-off character.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on December 07, 2020, 08:51:57 PM
Ian was originally due to return in Mawdryn Undead but Russell was unavailable, hence The Brigadier swerving into teaching.

Russell did cameo in An Adventure In Time And Space of course, but it would have been great to have him back on the main show as Ian.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on December 07, 2020, 11:57:10 PM
It always strikes me as odd that they got Jacqueline Hill back in 1980, but only to play some one-off character.

It's not "odd", it's one of the greatest crimes in the history of the show.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on December 07, 2020, 11:57:40 PM
Fucking Meglos.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on December 08, 2020, 12:25:57 AM
I like Meglos, I don’t know why.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on December 08, 2020, 12:43:53 AM
I like Meglos, I don’t know why.

Sure you do.

"Can I have sex with this cactus, now that it's a human man?"

NO WAY

YOU SHOULD BE LOCKED UP
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on December 08, 2020, 12:56:36 AM
I just find it oddly charming. Like, they don’t even bother with a special effect for Meglos, they literally just point the camera at a cactus. Always makes me laugh.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on December 08, 2020, 05:36:15 AM
I watched The Great Escape yesterday, and was pleased to see William Russell appear. Such a shame they've never had him back considering he's been alive as long as a Time Lord.

Especially as you could've brought in some of the Harry Potter crowd when that was at its peak using his son with the publicity. I saw Russell in a couple of Edgar Wallace mysteries recently. Was really odd seeing him play a wrong 'un.

Ian was originally due to return in Mawdryn Undead but Russell was unavailable, hence The Brigadier swerving into teaching.

Hence the timeline getting buggered.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on December 08, 2020, 07:56:01 AM
I saw Russell in a couple of Edgar Wallace mysteries recently. Was really odd seeing him play a wrong 'un.

Lovely seeing him in Sir Lancelot on Talking Pictures TV -

(I liked to pretend it was Ian having a holiday in the 'Big Finish' gap between Reign of Terror and Planet of Giants!)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on December 08, 2020, 08:01:33 AM
Lovely seeing him in Sir Lancelot on Talking Pictures TV -

(I liked to pretend it was Ian having a holiday in the 'Big Finish' gap between Reign of Terror and Planet of Giants!)

Head canon approved.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on December 08, 2020, 08:05:10 AM
I like Meglos, I don’t know why.

Me too.  Maybe because it feels a bit like a throwback to season 17 at a time when everything was about to get more somber and serious under Christopher H Boringer.


(I value both seasons 17 and 18 for different reasons.)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on December 08, 2020, 11:06:30 AM
Episode 1 is great, so many bizarre ideas, it's almost like a RTD script. Unfortunately it all settles down and becomes a bit dull after that. Isn't it one of those serials where most of the episodes under-run (cf. Underworld) because there just wasn't enough material?


Alister Pearson posted his unused submission for the Time And The Rani Target cover the other day:

(https://i.imgur.com/MYEn4DS.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Thomas on December 08, 2020, 11:22:13 AM
Presumably vetoed by Sylvester's chin's lawyers.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on December 08, 2020, 11:49:33 AM
Haha, the dude in the bottom right looks properly disgruntled at his inclusion on this cover (and presumably the story as a whole)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on December 08, 2020, 06:39:09 PM
It's almost like a RTD script in that it's really fucking naff, right?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on December 08, 2020, 06:42:02 PM
Wasn't somebody going to bring Meglos back, only the joke was the Doctor couldn't even remember who the fuck he was?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on December 08, 2020, 07:14:38 PM
Wasn't somebody going to bring Meglos back, only the joke was the Doctor couldn't even remember who the fuck he was?

Was supposed to be the villain in ‘The Lodger’ I think.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on December 08, 2020, 07:57:40 PM
is that ALF?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Thomas on December 08, 2020, 11:02:27 PM
Was supposed to be the villain in ‘The Lodger’ I think.

Ha - from an early draft (https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/unedited_script_reveals_c):

Quote from: The Lodger
MEGLOS
Can it be... the Doctor?

THE DOCTOR
Do I know you?

MEGLOS
I am Meglos!

THE DOCTOR
Sorry, have we met?

MEGLOS
Meglos! Last of the Zolfa Thurans!

THE DOCTOR
(no idea) Really sorry. I meet a lot of people.

MEGLOS
Remember Tigella, Doctor! The Gaztaks!

THE DOCTOR
The what? Remind me...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on December 08, 2020, 11:16:34 PM
Supposedly the writers were basically taking the piss, but Bidmead had such a rod up his arse he didn't even notice. It doesn't really feel hateful, though, not to me anyway - just charmingly useless.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on December 09, 2020, 08:51:58 AM
Supposedly the writers were basically taking the piss, but Bidmead had such a rod up his arse he didn't even notice. It doesn't really feel hateful, though, not to me anyway - just charmingly useless.

It still cheers me to think that the last thing Terrance Dicks wrote for DWM was a letter calling Bidmead a liar.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on December 09, 2020, 08:54:00 AM
Really? About what?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on December 09, 2020, 11:01:42 AM
In an typically self-aggrandising interview, Bidmead claimed that he had to rewrite all the scripts from scratch because all the other writers were terrible, and that Dicks burst into tears in a script conference over the scale of his rewrites.

Dicks wrote in calling bullshit, adding that not only were all of Bidmead's rewrites discarded before they started production, but that he and the other writers would bitch about him behind his back. In the same interview, Bidmead also claimed to have been Helen Mirren's boyfriend when they were at drama school.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on December 09, 2020, 11:04:38 AM
Fun fact: Aunt Vanessa's house in Logopolis was actually that of Meglos co-writer Andrew McCulloch. He happened to live in the same street as the planned location, but the householder wasn't in when the crew arrived, prompting a quick rethink.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on December 09, 2020, 11:07:07 AM
It still cheers me to think that the last thing Terrance Dicks wrote for DWM was a letter calling Bidmead a liar.

Ah yeah, that was very satisfying to read.

Bidmead always comes across like he thinks he's the only one who "got" Doctor Who. For my money he seemed insistent on sucking the joy out of it. I know Logopolis is respected, and its funereal tone is interesting, but it's also a joyless maths-based slog and a poor swansong for the most eccentric and gloriously odd of Doctors.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on December 09, 2020, 11:14:00 AM
It's frustrating that Bidmead is such a prick when the three stories he wrote are pretty good. The problem is that his dry, airless approach to the series would infect the next three-four years of the show, only letting up when the Sixth Doctor stories started to get real weird. There are some really good Davison stories, when they lean into the self-serious chess club intellectual approach, but stuff that should be light and breezy in tone like The Visitation, Time-Flight, Mawdryn Undead and The Awakening feel too much like being forced to take medicine without any sugar to sweeten it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on December 09, 2020, 11:50:21 AM
The blame for the joylessness of so many of Davison's stories should be lain squarely at the feet of Eric Saward, whose tiresome, bombastic style not only characterised his own scripts but infested those he script-edited. Bidmead was capable of a wonderfully humorous turn of phrase. I don't find anything dry or airless about the post-Meglos run of season 18 stories.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on December 09, 2020, 11:58:15 AM
In the end, if it came down to a pint with Saward or a pint with Bidmead, I'd choose JN-T and hope he'd leave Gary at home.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on December 09, 2020, 12:12:19 PM
Always thought it so strange and a bit sad that Saward (correctly) loved the work Robert Holmes, but couldn't understand why his scripts worked so well.

I like Revelation of the Daleks but it feels like a needlessly grimy photocopy of Androzani, with disparate and morally repugnant characters shooting machine guns into everything.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on December 09, 2020, 12:17:28 PM
Always thought it so strange and a bit sad that Saward (correctly) loved the work Robert Holmes, but couldn't understand why his scripts worked so well.

This is my major beef with his work, both as a writer and an editor; he simply didn't seem to understand the show he was working on, and fills it with humourless, nihilistic run 'n guns. Doctor Who can be one of these at a time, sometimes two if you're very careful. But not all three.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on December 09, 2020, 12:22:19 PM
Pint with Bidmead every time. Saward is like Colin Robertson the Energy Vampire out of What We Do In The Shadows, he seems to suck the joy from everything.

A couple of years ago a mate of mine had a clear-out and gave me his almost complete collection of Doctor Who Monthly magazines from 2005 onwards. I read through them all but eventually realised they were taking up too much space, so passed them on to another friend. The only issues I kept were a few of the specials and the one with the Bidmead interview where he thumps the arms of his chair while decrying RTD as a 'first draft' writer. Fantastic.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on December 09, 2020, 12:33:38 PM
In the end, if it came down to a pint with Saward or a pint with Bidmead, I'd choose JN-T and hope he'd leave Gary at home

Keep an eye on your shoelaces.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on December 09, 2020, 12:45:12 PM
I may have linked to this before, but here's a brilliant analysis of Saward's dialogue: Dialogue, Sawardese and Resurrection of the Daleks (1984) (https://randomwhoness.com/2017/04/28/dialogue-sawardese-and-resurrection-of-the-daleks-1984/)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2020, 12:55:37 PM
Keep an eye on your shoelaces.

Is this what people notoriously say before messing with your drink?

If so I now know to avoid them, so thank you.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on December 09, 2020, 01:12:54 PM
The only issues I kept were a few of the specials and the one with the Bidmead interview where he thumps the arms of his chair while decrying RTD as a 'first draft' writer. Fantastic.

DWM have actually printed anything critical of new Who since 2005? Blimey.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2020, 01:30:18 PM
Anyone know which issues feature the back and forths between Bidmead and others?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on December 09, 2020, 01:33:56 PM
DWM have actually printed anything critical of new Who since 2005? Blimey.

The previous editor Tom Spilsbury allegedly quit because Worldwide weren't happy with the magazine's somewhat less than positive reviews of Class (remember Class? What were all that about?).

There was also the business with Nicholas "The Watcher" Pegg's "fuck-you and goodbye" column after he found out he was getting the boot, which contained the hidden message "PANINI AND BBC WORLDWIDE ARE CUNTS"
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Thomas on December 09, 2020, 01:49:03 PM
I buy DWM occasionally (very rarely these days, probably only once this year), and all negative critical energy seems to be concentrated into mildly lamenting 2010's colourful Daleks.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on December 09, 2020, 01:52:13 PM
Took out a digital subscription to DWM when it was crazy cheap (worked out a couple of quid per issue) and it's... okay. The articles on Classic Who definitely make it worthwhile.

To be honest I'm just glad they shitcanned the Time Team, as it turns out showing a load of teenagers TV from 40 - 50 years ago and asking them to pass judgement was exactly as you'd expect it to be, and worse.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on December 09, 2020, 02:16:21 PM
Is this what people notoriously say before messing with your drink?

If so I now know to avoid them, so thank you

It's from an anecdote in Richard Marston's JN-T biography. Then DW Bulletin editor Gary Leigh visited Nathan-Turner and Downie in the production office and while the producer was talking to him, his associate was under the desk tying his shoelaces to the table leg.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on December 09, 2020, 02:19:46 PM
Ah yeah, that was very satisfying to read.

Bidmead always comes across like he thinks he's the only one who "got" Doctor Who. For my money he seemed insistent on sucking the joy out of it. I know Logopolis is respected, and its funereal tone is interesting, but it's also a joyless maths-based slog and a poor swansong for the most eccentric and gloriously odd of Doctors.

Season 18 appeals to melancholy types like me, I think. Pretentious types too - the same people who can't stand Warriors' Gate probably can't stand Ghost Light either but I love both, and I also love Logopolis even though I'm not sciency or mathsy in the slightest. It's such a weird atmosphere, because they're trying to have a revamp but Tom's still there, so it's very awkward, but that's what makes it interesting. Outside of "my" seasons 25 and 26 I think it's my favourite season, but I can see why people hate it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on December 09, 2020, 02:28:58 PM
Season 18 appeals to melancholy types like me, I think. Pretentious types too - the same people who can't stand Warriors' Gate probably can't stand Ghost Light either but I love both, and I also love Logopolis even though I'm not sciency or mathsy in the slightest. It's such a weird atmosphere, because they're trying to have a revamp but Tom's still there, so it's very awkward, but that's what makes it interesting. Outside of "my" seasons 25 and 26 I think it's my favourite season, but I can see why people hate it.

Yeah I don't mind Season 18 either. Definitely not the version of Who I grew up with (I mostly saw and loved the Pertwee and Baker VHS releases) but an interesting alternative. Warriors' Gate is an absolute cracker.

There's just something about the po-facedness of Logopolis and seeing how morose Baker is (I know from the Blu-rays he's not blameless in that) makes it quite an unenjoyable watch. I don't think the companions help. Nothing against the actors but Adric, Tegan and Nyssa make for a dispiriting TARDIS crew.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on December 09, 2020, 02:41:43 PM
Funnily enough I think Adric works weirdly well with Tom. I know Tom despised him but it doesn't show on screen. Another reason why I love Logopolis. The keyboard coming out of the console! The TARDISES inside TARDISES! All that stuff with the Watcher! That hilarious bit where Tom stands there aghast when Tegan starts shouting at him! I just lap that shit up.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 09, 2020, 04:05:17 PM
The previous editor Tom Spilsbury allegedly quit because Worldwide weren't happy with the magazine's somewhat less than positive reviews of Class (remember Class? What were all that about?).

Would happily take another series of Class over another Chibnall series of Who.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on December 09, 2020, 04:12:42 PM
Would happily take another series of Class over another Chibnall series of Who.

Ended on a genuinely intriguing cliffhanger too (the idea of a modern-day group of powerful suit-types working for and being influenced by the Weeping Angels felt like it could have been interesting).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2020, 04:46:26 PM
Funnily enough I think Adric works weirdly well with Tom. I know Tom despised him but it doesn't show on screen.

Because it was drowned out by how much Lalla Ward also disliked Matthew Waterhouse.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on December 09, 2020, 04:52:21 PM
Because it was drowned out by how much Lalla Ward also disliked Matthew Waterhouse.

Oof, yes. She's ice-cold whenever asked about him on the DVDs, which seems unfair given his youth, and being given a role he was completely unprepared for.

The Season 18 Blu-ray catch-up with Toby Hadoke and Waterhouse is lovely.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on December 09, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
The Season 18 Blu-ray catch-up with Toby Hadoke and Waterhouse is lovely.

Yes, it was terrific. Turns out he's a big fan of Dark Shadows and Graham Greene, so he can't be too bad. My favourite Waterhouse anecdote is him giving acting tips to a bemused Richard Todd on Kinda. I can absolutely see how he would irritate some people, but he was very young and all young people are irritating at some point.

Put me down for enjoyed series 18 too. Warrior's Gate has a lovely dream quallity to it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on December 09, 2020, 05:02:12 PM
Would happily take another series of Class over another Chibnall series of Who.

Was Class actually any good then? Not 'it's good compared to Chibnall' good. But in its own right. It seemed to get an absolute shitcanning at the time so I never bothered with it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 09, 2020, 05:25:43 PM
Was Class actually any good then? Not 'it's good compared to Chibnall' good. But in its own right. It seemed to get an absolute shitcanning at the time so I never bothered with it.

I thought it was a good fun, violent romp in the Whoniverse. Think the Sarah Jane Adventures, but with gore and shagging. I wouldn't call it brilliant or a must-see, it certainly doesn't do much world building for the parent show, but it was entertaining enough, it hit the "adult" marks far better than Torchwood did, and, as frajer says, the cliffhanger left me feeling rather disappointed it wasn't picked up for a second series.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on December 09, 2020, 05:29:48 PM
Yes, it was terrific. Turns out he's a big fan of Dark Shadows and Graham Greene, so he can't be too bad. My favourite Waterhouse anecdote is him giving acting tips to a bemused Richard Todd on Kinda. I can absolutely see how he would irritate some people, but he was very young and all young people are irritating at some point.

Put me down for enjoyed series 18 too. Warrior's Gate has a lovely dream quallity to it.

If you've not read Matthew's memoir Blue Box Boy I can highly recommend it. The audio version is at https://whatnoiseproductions.bandcamp.com/album/blue-box-boy (https://whatnoiseproductions.bandcamp.com/album/blue-box-boy) and I think you can get the e-book in the usual places.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on December 09, 2020, 05:42:06 PM
I love Warriors Gate and Logopolis, but very little else in 18. The Leisure Hive is a particular low point for me, a story I just can't enjoy on any level. Meglos has a certain WTF factor that appeals, especially the seemingly random fellow from Earth, but I can't cope with it as a full two hours.

Class had a lot of potential, and squandered much of it on teen angst, in the hope that teen angst is what teenagers want to watch. I dunno, maybe it is. I could just do without them all moping and arguing half the time. There were good ideas in there, but some very bad writing. I'm going to end up listening to the audios at some point so I'll probably rewatch the series when I get to them.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on December 09, 2020, 08:49:53 PM
I agree about The Leisure Hive. State of Decay would probably have worked better in 1977, it doesn’t quite fit the 1980 aesthetic, but it’s still...interesting. And people say Keeper ofTraken is boring but I don’t agree, I always really enjoy it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2020, 09:38:09 PM
What's with the giant jelly babies in The Leisure Hive?  I know it's because the fourth Doctor was into his jelly babies, but why were there giant ones just standing around in that place?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on December 10, 2020, 10:31:12 PM
My favourite Logopolis bit is when the companions all react at ever so slightly different times to him falling.

Season 18 is probably my least favourite iteration of Baker. The wacky races of Season 17 is more fun. Baker's early years are typically wonderful. This is overwrought and doesn't have any spark.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alternative Carpark on December 11, 2020, 10:21:03 AM
What's with the giant jelly babies in The Leisure Hive?  I know it's because the fourth Doctor was into his jelly babies, but why were there giant ones just standing around in that place?

They're just meant to be Argolin statues, really.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on December 21, 2020, 06:18:24 PM
Doctor Who Takes a Trip Strange England by Simon Messingham
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/2/25/NA029_strangeengland.jpg)

Actually, Doctor Who Takes a Trip isn't the least accurate description of this book. The first two-thirds is a full-on onslaught of WTF moments with plenty of body horror. The TARDIS crew lands in sleepy Victorian England, where a man is absorbed by a tree, a girl is killed by a furry dragonfly attaching itself to her vocal chords, various half-human demons kill off the members of a large household, a shapeshifting man called The Quack turns into a floating steam train to try and kill people, and Ace and a farmer are sucked into the ground and spewed out in a place that's the same yet strangely different. Throw in a finale which takes place in a post-apocalyptic desert landscape populated by rivers of burning oil and demonic monks organising a crucifixion, and the whole book does a good job of confusing and unsettling the reader with plenty of vividly strange and horrible imagery.

Which would all work if Messingham was a good writer. However, the prose is clumsy - in the first chapter he uses 'melancholy' as an adjective to describe three different things on the same page - and the plotting is flimsy. The fact that the valley in which the main story is set is actually a TARDIS - an idyllic construction created for an ageing Time Lady to live out her remaining life after losing the ability to regenerate - is nice, and the revelation that everything goes on because the program was corrupted by the arrival of our regulars - that The Doctor, Ace and Benny were the direct cause of all the monsters - is really good. But it doesn't tie together. The various horrible things that happen near the start have no real logic or purpose other than to be horrible. The entire subplot where Ace is captured by a horrible bully whose aim is to take revenge on God (??) is utterly terrible, in that it makes little sense and Ace is far, far too easily subdued. The TARDIS crew feel like broad, vague interpretations of themselves. Even though it's clear who they're intended to be, there's very little personality in the dialogue. And the prologue and interlude, which feature a nameless white haired lady who tells a friend, Lady Edith, the story of what happened... well, they don't resolve or get explained or have any bearing on the main story. For most of the book I assumed it was an elderly Ace, and this would be the point she left, but apparently not. I think we're meant to assume it's Charlotte, but it's not clear at all, and the two short chapters add nothing to the story at all.

There's a really good book at the heart of Strange England - some memorably strange and vivid images, a great headfuck of a mystery, a striking location - but it feels at least two drafts away from completion. It's so very clearly a debut novel, and Messingham's prose improves over the course of the book itself, and it's a shame that he simply didn't have the skill to come close to doing his imagination justice.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: M-CORP on December 25, 2020, 09:27:28 AM
I know it's Christmas Day and we all have better things to be doing so no-one will see this right away, quite right too. I just wanted to say that I watched The Caves of Androzani for the first time in a while this week. God, it's so good. Wouldn't say it's the best story ever, or even that such a plaudit can be awarded, but as I watched it I was gripped by Graeme Harper's direction - yes, some aspects of it have inevitably dated, but some parts remain just as current and jaw-dropping, particularly the chase scene in part 4, Jesus Christ, those whip-pans! The cliffhangers... The final confrontation between Jek and Morgus... And I've always liked when Stotz's voice echoes in the wind during a tense bit in part 2 ('Come on, BITE! BITE!')

The performances as well - Christopher Gable always has the viewer's attention, John Normington's deadpan delivery is very weird but all the more unnerving for it, and very funny at times; I still laugh whenever he says 'How sad.' with such sincerity. :)

And of course, the script by Robert Holmes... One might say it's Robert Holmes by numbers, but it's Robert Holmes, a truly individual voice and a damn good writer. No-one else could do the sort of poetic dialogue, plus the correct balance of black humour and ballsy horror like he did. I was watching utterly awe-struck at the plotting and how it moves long, how events are so subtly interconnected with each other, how so much is implied rather than spoon-fed. That and the characterisation - no-one is a straight-up one-dimensional villain out to do evil - they have realistic and relatable motivations (e.g. Sharaz Jek letting the Doctor go with Stotz to Androzani Major simply because he's preoccupied with finding Peri.) The Doctor might not be the most interesting character in the story, but he does affect everything that occurs, and it is a heroic way for Peter Davison to go out, even if the regeneration aspect feels rather minor.

I'd just forgotten how good it was. I remembered it being good, but I thought the novelty would wear off. No chance... Merry Christmas all!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on December 25, 2020, 11:08:10 AM
Merry Christmas!

It's a great story, easily the best of the 80s. Davison himself said that if he'd had more stories like this he would've stayed on in the role. Even Peri is tolerable in this one, though I'd have preferred a couple of stories with just 5 and Turlough once Tegan left.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on December 25, 2020, 11:22:58 AM
Thought about watching Twice Upon a Time today but it would just make me sad.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on December 25, 2020, 06:57:46 PM
“Of course, the irony is while you’ve been closing plants here in the West, you’ve been building them in the East. So if the unemployed were sent to the eastern labour camps, a great many of them would be working for you again, only this time without payment.”
Magnificent script and unarguably one of the all-time greats.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: kidsick5000 on December 26, 2020, 12:43:52 AM
EDIT: wrong Who thread, even though it’s about a decade-old episode
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on December 26, 2020, 11:59:01 AM
I know it's Christmas Day and we all have better things to be doing so no-one will see this right away, quite right too. I just wanted to say that I watched The Caves of Androzani for the first time in a while this week. God, it's so good. Wouldn't say it's the best story ever, or even that such a plaudit can be awarded, but as I watched it I was gripped by Graeme Harper's direction - yes, some aspects of it have inevitably dated, but some parts remain just as current and jaw-dropping, particularly the chase scene in part 4, Jesus Christ, those whip-pans! The cliffhangers... The final confrontation between Jek and Morgus... And I've always liked when Stotz's voice echoes in the wind during a tense bit in part 2 ('Come on, BITE! BITE!')

The performances as well - Christopher Gable always has the viewer's attention, John Normington's deadpan delivery is very weird but all the more unnerving for it, and very funny at times; I still laugh whenever he says 'How sad.' with such sincerity. :)

And of course, the script by Robert Holmes... One might say it's Robert Holmes by numbers, but it's Robert Holmes, a truly individual voice and a damn good writer. No-one else could do the sort of poetic dialogue, plus the correct balance of black humour and ballsy horror like he did. I was watching utterly awe-struck at the plotting and how it moves long, how events are so subtly interconnected with each other, how so much is implied rather than spoon-fed. That and the characterisation - no-one is a straight-up one-dimensional villain out to do evil - they have realistic and relatable motivations (e.g. Sharaz Jek letting the Doctor go with Stotz to Androzani Major simply because he's preoccupied with finding Peri.) The Doctor might not be the most interesting character in the story, but he does affect everything that occurs, and it is a heroic way for Peter Davison to go out, even if the regeneration aspect feels rather minor.

I'd just forgotten how good it was. I remembered it being good, but I thought the novelty would wear off. No chance... Merry Christmas all!


I'd say it is absolutely the best classic-era story. When a post on Gallifrey Base or wherever asks for favourite story I put 'Caves' then check myself and run through the other usual contenders like The War Games, Inferno, half a dozen Hinchcliffes, City Of Death, and it stands up not only to all of them, but also the quirkier stories I love, like Carnival Of Monsters and Kinda. It is simply an extraordinary piece of television, a bloody revenger's tragedy brought to the small screen with Holmes's script milked for electrifying tension at every opportunity by Graeme Harper's phenomenal direction. There was a discussion on GB recently about just how difficult, on a technical level, it was to bring any amount of directorial flair to the frankly primitive set-up of the BBC studios at the time (never mind added constraints like severe time restrictions etc.), which makes it all the more remarkable that Harper managed to incorporate so many flourishes. Another thing that goes mostly unnoticed (because you're riveted to the performances) is that, as was often the case for stories near the end of a season, it looks incredibly cheap - the cave sets are impressively vertiginous, but apart from that, the other sets have practically nothing to them. 

Unfortunately no amount of smoke-filled shots can disguise the awfulness of the Magma Beast, but even that's OK, because you just have to imagine it's a clunky, basic-level android, built by Jek to scare the military away from the tunnels, and it's fine.

And to think we could have had David Bowie as Sharaz Jek.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on December 28, 2020, 10:58:10 AM
RIP Philip Martin, creator of Sil and writers of Vengeance of Varos, Mindwarp and Mission to Magnus. Died at the age of 82.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on December 31, 2020, 01:03:45 PM
A quick snippet from First Frontier that I just came to:

“If you were sleep-walking, it must have been quite a nightmare,” the man opined in a noticeable Scottish accent.
“You wouldn’t know,” Jack muttered through a raw throat.
“Don’t be too sure; I once had one where all my old foes chased me round a soap opera.”
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on December 31, 2020, 01:32:01 PM
A quick snippet from First Frontier that I just came to:

“If you were sleep-walking, it must have been quite a nightmare,” the man opined in a noticeable Scottish accent.
“You wouldn’t know,” Jack muttered through a raw throat.
“Don’t be too sure; I once had one where all my old foes chased me round a soap opera.”

Brilliant.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on January 01, 2021, 02:29:52 PM
Mark Eden has died aged 92. Marco Polo in Doctor Who of course, but also appeared in a lot of cult 60s shows like The Avengers & The Saint. First role was a bit part in the original Quatermass and the Pit. Best known to the masses as tram-enthusiast Alan Bradley in Coronation Street.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: George White on January 01, 2021, 07:34:01 PM
Oh! Well I'd never have recognised him from that cover. Don't think I've seen him since about 1996. Did they get Constable Habib in as the Rani?
No, she played the Rani's mum.
Well, Rani's mum in sarah Jane Adventures.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bingo Fury on January 06, 2021, 11:02:08 PM
Looking back through the thread, no one's posted the covers of these LPs, which came out a few months ago and are so gorgeous (at least the Marco Polo one is) I think they deserve to be shared.

(https://imgur.com/med3E9D.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/G8OyQsR.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 06, 2021, 11:55:47 PM
They are very nice and I’ve considered buying them at times but they’re (like a lot of Who stuff) a bit too expensive for what they are. I think the vinyl themselves are usually produced in different colours or splatters and at times related to the story.

If I can I’m going to treat myself to Eccleston’s first return audio on vinyl. Probably long sold out though...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 07, 2021, 12:11:33 AM
Still available to pre-order on the Big Finish (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-ninth-doctor-adventures-ravagers-limited-vinyl-edition-2335) Website - limited to 1000 copies. Triple vinyl gatefold sleeve at £35.99 - which a seems a fairly decent price.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 07, 2021, 12:40:24 AM
It's such a mess.  So many of those Big Finish audios show Chris Eccleston on the cover but don't actually feature his real voice.  Most people won't be able to know the difference.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 07, 2021, 12:58:10 AM
Still available to pre-order on the Big Finish (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-ninth-doctor-adventures-ravagers-limited-vinyl-edition-2335) Website - limited to 1000 copies. Triple vinyl gatefold sleeve at £35.99 - which a seems a fairly decent price.

Ooh cracking Daf. I thought there was no way that wouldn’t have sold out within a couple of days of being announced that I never bothered to check, cheers! I was so skint when it went up for pre-order and didn’t want to fling my last few bob on something I wouldn’t see for the best part of a year.

Eccleston Who was a massive thing for me so to have this delivered on I assume the day of release would be fab and it seems cheaper than I originally thought.

Also this one completely passed me by.

https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-doctor-chronicles-the-ninth-doctor-1628

Maybe I thought it was Nick Briggs doing the voice again and just disregarded it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 07, 2021, 06:57:55 AM
Also this one completely passed me by.

https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-doctor-chronicles-the-ninth-doctor-1628

Maybe I thought it was Nick Briggs doing the voice again and just disregarded it.

No, you were right the first time, that one is Nick Briggs narrating - which means he's doing the Doctor's voice.

The thing to look out for on the covers are the words 'Chronicles' or 'Adventures' -

Adventures = Real Doctor's voice
Chronicles = impersonator *

As Replies mentions, the casual fan won't be able to know the difference - and I suspect some might get the wrong one by mistake, and come away feeling cheated.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* I assume 'Chronicles' is a nod to their old 'Companion Chronicles' range - which covered the first three Doctors stories through a semi-narrrated style featuring an original companion where they would 'do' the Doctor's voice. I didn't mind that, as there was no other option due to the actors being dead, and there was at least some connection to the original actors via the companion.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 07, 2021, 08:44:10 AM
Nick Briggs doing Eccleston wasn't even necessary. The other actors can still carry a story and just narrate what the Doctor says. I'm sure I listened to a couple like that with Camille Coduri.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on January 07, 2021, 09:28:39 AM
Nick Briggs doing Eccleston wasn't even necessary. The other actors can still carry a story and just narrate what the Doctor says. I'm sure I listened to a couple like that with Camille Coduri.

I'd have preferred that sort of Companion Chronicles set-up too.

A lot of reviewers are full of praise for Briggs' Eccleston impersonation, but to me it sounds distractingly bad and cartoonishly Northern. Like Wallace (of and Gromit) if he'd had a blow to the skull.

It's a shame, because the stories in the Ninth Doctor Chronicles set are all very good and capture that era really well. The Murray Gold-esque score feels particularly "right". If you're a fan of the RTD era I'd say it's worth a punt when next in a sale.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on January 07, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
The Early Adventures range used the full cast setup with narration for The Doctor and work incredibly well from what I've heard. The first two series are two of the best runs of stories Big Finish has done.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 07, 2021, 10:48:30 AM
No, you were right the first time, that one is Nick Briggs narrating - which means he's doing the Doctor's voice.

The thing to look out for on the covers are the words 'Chronicles' or 'Adventures' -

Adventures = Real Doctor's voice
Chronicles = impersonator *

As Replies mentions, the casual fan won't be able to know the difference - and I suspect some might get the wrong one by mistake, and come away feeling cheated.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* I assume 'Chronicles' is a nod to their old 'Companion Chronicles' range - which covered the first three Doctors stories through a semi-narrrated style featuring an original companion where they would 'do' the Doctor's voice. I didn't mind that, as there was no other option due to the actors being dead, and there was at least some connection to the original actors via the companion.

It's an aggravatingly arbitrary distinction.  It's something that might seem obvious to the people involved in making them, or those who obsessively buy every release, but to anyone outside that particular bubble, just curious to encounter Eccleston's first involvement with the show since 2005, there's nothing there to latch onto to guide you.

I'm personally never going to remember which one out of 'adventures' and 'chronicles' is the correct one to get.  That bit of information is never going to slip into my long-term memory, nor do I want it sitting there, taking up room.  But at least I know there is a difference - many people won't.

It should be like food packaging.  If it doesn't contain real strawberries don't show strawberries on the cover, unless you also have "serving suggestion" alongside the picture in tiny writing.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 07, 2021, 12:14:47 PM
I wonder if Eccleston even knows about the Chronicles range!

I always felt that if they'd have got Jon Culshaw in to do some 'Fourth Doctor Chronicles' in the ten years or so when he was holding out, Tom Baker would never have agreed to come on board.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on January 07, 2021, 01:43:55 PM
I understand why Big Finish did what they did with the New Series "Doctor Chronicles" range from a business point of view, as they were paying for a New Series licence before they had any of the new series Doctors secured (hence early releases like "The Churchill Years" with Ian McNeice narrating the Doctor's lines).

However I'm very glad they were able to secure Tennant, and now Eccleston, as it did feel like a bit of a swizz to see a big picture of Eccleston and then "narrated by Nicholas Briggs" underneath. Not saying Big Finish were doing it deliberately, but I'm certain people will have bought that thinking it would be Eccleston in the role.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 09, 2021, 09:30:17 PM
Here we go - this is the cover of the first Christopher Eccleston box set :

(https://i.imgur.com/aPHHbxL.jpg)

Quote
The Ninth Doctor Adventures: Ravagers is now available for pre-order; the stories included in this first volume are :  “Sphere of Freedom”, “Cataclysm”  and “Food Fight”. Joining Christopher Eccleston on his first audio odyssey through time and space are Camilla Beeput as Nova, a galley chef from the Sphere of Freedom enlisted by the Doctor to stop a dastardly plan, and Jayne McKenna as Audrey, the oldest gamer in Freedom City (although there may be more to her than meets the eye).

Christopher Eccleston : “It was lovely coming back to play the role again, due to Nicholas’s writing. I was surprised at how very quickly I seemed to recall the choices I made fifteen years ago. It was an odd experience; the Ninth Doctor’s still hanging around.”

Nicholas Briggs : “It’s been an honor working with Chris again – it’s truly thrilling to hear him in studio, inhabiting the Ninth Doctor like he’d never been away! Writing and directing Doctor Who stories never gets old for me, and I’m so excited for people to hear what we’ve been up to. It’s been a delight to kick off The Ninth Doctor Adventures series with Chris, and I know that my fellow writers and directors are cooking up some great stuff for the next box set.”

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on January 09, 2021, 09:35:56 PM
The ENTIRE THING written by Nick Briggs? Good luck to him, but I'm out.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 09, 2021, 09:43:18 PM
A bit like when Tom Baker started - with Briggs getting first dibs on scripts (and directing) for the first few years - he does seem to be a safe pair of hands in terms of keeping the actors happy, and I guess they just want to ease Eccleston in gently - before letting someone like Nev Fountain have a nibble!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 09, 2021, 09:45:35 PM
Think there’s going to be 4 sets in total and his quote makes it seem that they’ll be doing the others.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 09, 2021, 09:50:33 PM
Yes, It's just Nick getting his 'reward' really - I suppose there was a risk that Chris might change his mind after a few, so he's just making sure his stories are in the can.

I expect the big guns like John Dorney and Jonathan Morris will get their chance in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th sets.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 11, 2021, 12:21:50 PM
A fair amount of this Classic Who chat will be overlooked by people who care about Classic Who and not Chibnall Who.

Good point - link to the Classic Who chat >>>  here (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,78429.msg4430390.html#msg4430390)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 11, 2021, 11:57:18 PM
Doctor Who and the Marvellous Cleavage First Frontier by David A. McIntee
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/3/36/NA030_firstfrontier.jpg)

Fucking hell.
I mean, that should have been a good book. All the ingredients are right. Ace is standing in front of a crashed flying saucer in a US desert. People are being abducted by typical 'gray' aliens, then sent back to Earth to tell the population that the aliens come in peace and we are all brothers. The aliens themselves, the Tzun, are one of the most interesting adversaries I've come across in Who: formerly warriors who now only conquer to keep their buggered genetic line going, offering a peaceful and mutually beneficial joining to every race they come across. The Master is here, still part-Cheetah, and he regenerates! There's a prologue in which the whole TARDIS crew are killed. Ace and Benny say 'smeg' a lot. It has potential be a fun mix of pastiche, enjoyable pulp and intriguing character moments.
And yet what McIntee brings, instead, is a full list of samey airforce bases, airforce personal, military black projects, aircraft names, forgettable airforce personnel, interchangeable, daftly named alien sub-species, and page after page of utterly dull prose that stopped me from ever getting past more than around 25 pages without having to put the book down out of utter boredom. Once the plot has been foiled, and the Tzun, in a nice twist, decide to leave Earth, acknowledging that it would be wasteful and dishonourable to destroy or forcefully conquer the planet, it then putters on towards a totally pointless coda section in which The Master is a tedious bastard trying to destroy things. The threat gone, I found myself reading paragraphs without taking in any information at all, realising I had no idea what I'd just read, and being able to carry on without going back because everything is just a long stream of turgid nonsense and drawn out action sequences. As for the 'they all die' prologue, I must have missed something, because I literally have no idea how it relates to anything else that happened in the book.
The Doctor, Ace, Benny and The Master are all competently drawn out, and the Tzun, as a species, have a lot of potential for brilliance. That's about the only positive I can give this book though.
I'm not sure what happened to McIntee in the mid-'90s, but I found his final MA and his PDAs excellent; conversely, his other Virgin books so far have been really quite dull, and this is the worst offender yet.

Also, the real life version of the cover costume doesn't quite live up to its original incarnation.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tFS4sWT6W9c/T4MALfN3kPI/AAAAAAAAAMA/Xsr5JdEhnes/s1600/tumblr_lfu4iluu0p1qgn3ano1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 12, 2021, 12:28:47 AM
Also, the real life version of the cover costume doesn't quite live up to its original incarnation.

Oh, I don't know - that certainly reverses the polarity of my neutron flow!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on January 12, 2021, 08:51:04 AM
The surprise return of The Master was the big selling point of First Frontier at the time, as in "This big has an AMAZING twist you won't see coming" kind-of thing (until DWM helpfully spoiled it in their letters page not long after the book came out, thanks lads). Apart from that it's not very memorable at all, unfortunately.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on January 12, 2021, 04:21:13 PM
First Who novel I ever read, so I have fond feelings towards it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 12, 2021, 05:08:17 PM
Oh, I don't know - that certainly reverses the polarity of my neutron flow!

It sends spunk shooting up into your cock and balls?  From where?!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 12, 2021, 05:55:07 PM
Amazing what a change of author can do - started Mark Gatiss's St. Anthony's Fire today and didn't stop until 130 pages in.

Ever the nerdy fan, Gatiss has also solved the mystery of why the TARDIS exterior sometimes changes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0Td6pst/Screenshot-2021-01-12-at-17.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyVfPzw7/Screenshot-2021-01-12-at-17-1.png)

So now you know. It's chameleonic fluctuation.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 12, 2021, 05:59:24 PM
Christ almighty what a load of wank.  Why can't it just be that the TARDIS keeps approximating a police box exterior and it doesn't always approximate the same one.  Why would it be constantly attempting to replicate Hartnell's TARDIS but getting it wrong due to deterioration? 

Why do so many writers fuss with explaining things all the time when indeterminacy and open-endedness are always better, allowing people to imagine and wonder.  Maybe Gatiss wouldn't have been much better than Chibnall after all.


Also - imagine the Doctor giving a shit about the roof stacking.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 12, 2021, 06:04:36 PM
Yes but now we know about the St. John's Ambulance sticker! Come on, get with it!!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 12, 2021, 07:17:39 PM
It sends spunk shooting up into your cock and balls?  From where?!

The fluid link of course!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 12, 2021, 09:31:42 PM
Yuck.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Camp Tramp on January 13, 2021, 07:07:18 PM
Robert Shearman is releasing a novelisation of Dalek soon.
https://twitter.com/ShearmanRobert/status/1349324557463728130?s=20
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 13, 2021, 07:14:11 PM
Resurrection, Revelation & Pirate Planet novelisations coming soon as well.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Camp Tramp on January 13, 2021, 07:15:58 PM
Resurrection, Revelation & Pirate Planet novelisations coming soon as well.

Those ones are already out.

Resurrection and Revelation aren't very good.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 13, 2021, 08:10:59 PM
They're being reissued with Target covers.
As is Gary Russell's novelisation of the movie, only apparently it's been re-written to be closer to the final script.

Along with Dalek we're also getting The Crimson Horror and The Witchfinders in the New Series novelisations. Are there plans to do them all?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: M-CORP on January 13, 2021, 08:18:19 PM
Along with Dalek we're also getting The Crimson Horror and The Witchfinders in the New Series novelisations. Are there plans to do them all?

I don't think it's been said whether or not they're going to do novelisations of all the books. It's worth bearing in mind the last time they did Target books of new episodes was 2018, so they are currently going at a snail's pace if that is the plan.

I think it'd be nice to have all the episodes novelised, but I wouldn't race to pick them up. Didn't finish the Day Of The Doctor book because I just found it too old and familiar, being used to the TV version. From a big suit's point of view, there might not be the same incentive as there was in the 1970s and 80s to have novelisations, seeing as, unlike then, the TV series is readily available, and there wouldn't be the same potential for discovery, but that's a viewpoint you may disagree with - some stories that were constrained at the time might finally be realised in prose...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on January 13, 2021, 08:20:53 PM
Could they novelise all the Chibnall-era episodes and turn them into decent stories?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on January 13, 2021, 09:01:50 PM
Sod novelisations. Bring back the monthly new adventures.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 13, 2021, 09:07:11 PM
I got the Rose novelisation the day it came out. Took it out the packaging and was really excited to read it. Still sat on the bookshelf unread.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 13, 2021, 09:34:39 PM
Yes, I'm not particularly excited about them, although will read them once I get on to the New Series Adventures.

There's been a real downturn in the number of NSA novels in general since Matt's run, hasn't there? Tennant had 29, Smith 17, then Capaldi had nine and, so far, Jodie's had three. There've been a few one-off stories and audiobooks too, but the series has pretty much run aground at this point. Even the occasional previous Doctor hardbacks dried up after a couple of new stories and a handful of James Goss adaptations.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on January 13, 2021, 09:58:02 PM
Could they novelise all the Chibnall-era episodes and turn them into decent stories?

Well, it worked for Terminus.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on January 13, 2021, 10:44:55 PM
Yes, I'm not particularly excited about them, although will read them once I get on to the New Series Adventures.

There's been a real downturn in the number of NSA novels in general since Matt's run, hasn't there? Tennant had 29, Smith 17, then Capaldi had nine and, so far, Jodie's had three. There've been a few one-off stories and audiobooks too, but the series has pretty much run aground at this point. Even the occasional previous Doctor hardbacks dried up after a couple of new stories and a handful of James Goss adaptations.

All seems to come back to Chibnall's lack of interest in promoting the show, doesn't it. All that ancillary media, the books and the comics and toys and so on, helps to keep the show alive in the public consciousness during the long gaps when it's off the air. RTD understood that, Moffat did to a lesser extent, Chibnall...isn't arsed. So when the show's not being broadcast, there nothing to keep it fresh in people's minds.

I mean, we had all the Time Lord Victorious stuff last year, but that might as well be happening in a bubble completely apart from the current show. A decent showrunner would've gone out of their way to make sure there were cross promotions to tie it all together, but as it stands it's like it's promoting an entirely different series. Utterly bizarre.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 13, 2021, 11:04:51 PM
I have no idea how much say the showrunner has in the other merch, to be honest. I'm sure BBC Worldwide / BBC Books / Whatever Department of the BBC Does This Stuff plays a part in it. Even so, Capaldi's run lasted three and a half years and there were only nine books published, so I get the feeling there's probably less interest within the BBC for the whole thing. Time Lord Victorious aside, there have only been a couple of non-novelisation past Doctor books published by the BBC in the past five years, and both of those are based on unused scripts. It just seems a shame that basically since Capaldi's era, we've had fewer Doctor Who novels published per year than since the early 1970s.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: McDead on January 14, 2021, 12:57:17 AM
I got the Rose novelisation the day it came out. Took it out the packaging and was really excited to read it. Still sat on the bookshelf unread.

It's excellent. It captures that sun-drenched moment of giddy optimism in 2005 perfectly, and adds all sorts of interesting arms and legs to the story. Quite apart from that, RTD is a cracking prose writer. Get it down off the shelf!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 14, 2021, 01:10:30 AM
It's excellent. It captures that sun-drenched moment of giddy optimism in 2005 perfectly, and adds all sorts of interesting arms and legs to the story. Quite apart from that, RTD is a cracking prose writer. Get it down off the shelf!

I really should. It catches my eye often and I could read it in an hour or so probably.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on January 14, 2021, 11:52:10 AM
All seems to come back to Chibnall's lack of interest in promoting the show, doesn't it. All that ancillary media, the books and the comics and toys and so on, helps to keep the show alive in the public consciousness during the long gaps when it's off the air. RTD understood that, Moffat did to a lesser extent, Chibnall...isn't arsed. So when the show's not being broadcast, there nothing to keep it fresh in people's minds.

I don't want to defend Chibnall, but are the novels really a useful way of promoting the show or just a way of getting cash out of the people who'll buy anything connected with it, and then buy it again if you put it out with a new cover? How many of the people who need persuading to watch would even be aware of the novels' existence at any time since 2005?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 14, 2021, 12:17:56 PM
Well, it worked for Terminus.

The Eric Saward era is a funny one.  By and large, his tenure was flawed but not a complete waste in the same way as Chibnall's.  The characters were there even if they were not explored properly.  The dialogue wasn't entirely pointless, even when Saward script-edited everyone into grammar pedants so they no longer sounded like real people.  There were dramatic flourishes that didn't always land, but nevertheless showed competence when it came to punctuating stories with action-oriented highs and lows.

Chibnall's era can be compared with Saward's when it comes to characters not sounding like real people, but really the entire roots of his tenure have not grown properly and nothing whatsoever can land in his tell-not-show infodump configuration of the show where most revelations seem to happen off-screen in scenes that weren't even written.  A lot of Saward's problems would have been smoothed over as well if the production budget hadn't been so low.  Chibnall's era is an altogether different degree of shite, and I can't imagine any of his stories converting well into novelisations unless somebody brilliant were to come in and completely rebuild them from the bottom up.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on January 14, 2021, 05:06:46 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/uukTcm9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VpL6SN9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gYBuRQe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/622uhka.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OD4N0T0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KQALeE1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NwYjmOZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: M-CORP on January 14, 2021, 05:40:28 PM
I don't want to defend Chibnall, but are the novels really a useful way of promoting the show or just a way of getting cash out of the people who'll buy anything connected with it, and then buy it again if you put it out with a new cover? How many of the people who need persuading to watch would even be aware of the novels' existence at any time since 2005?

I used to go around collecting New Series tie-in novels in charity shops, and read quite a few of them in lockdown. These are the original adventures by the likes of Justin Richards. I quite liked them. Your mileage may vary, and some may be better than others, but I had fun with them, and it was nice to go back to 2007 or thereabouts, while immersing myself in stories from that era that were new to me. They're more fleshed out and slower-paced than stories on screen, which was nice. And of course it was great fun to visualise them in my head. David Tennant's audiobook reading of Justin Richards' 'The Resurrection Casket' is etched on my childhood subconscious, used to play the free copy that came with the Radiotimes to death. Ought to listen to it again, I remember a really nice foreboding mystery with EMPS and steam-powered pirates.As tie-ins go, they were pretty cool at the time.

Of course, the Target novels they're doing nowadays based on existing TV eps are a different story. Jesus that 2018 logo on The Witchfinders looks horrid. It's not even that bad a logo, if a bit too Harry Potter; it's just a very wide logo that's designed for magazine mastheads, and not narrower paperbacks. It would perhaps work if it wasn't stacked, but even then it lacks the boldness of Bernard Lodge's timeless logo. Does anyone else think they could've just made that the logo back in 2018 and stuck to it for all of Who?

Agree with Replies on View re Saward by the way; his era was hit and miss but certainly had some nice flourishes that were more dramatic than what we're getting now...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 14, 2021, 06:22:09 PM
Nice to see Colin Baker looking like himself on the Revelation cover. Unlike this...


(https://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/vengance-book.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on January 14, 2021, 07:02:23 PM
Colm Meaney has let himself go.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on January 14, 2021, 07:22:40 PM
“Oooh, Peri’s done a whoopsie on the Tardis”
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on January 14, 2021, 07:23:53 PM
They're being reissued with Target covers.
As is Gary Russell's novelisation of the movie, only apparently it's been re-written to be closer to the final script.


Gary on Twitter: "the text has been *slightly* updated from the original with a couple of moments I was asked to take out in 1996 now put back in, some better geography and a few errors corrected. V proud of this "

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349302343939055617
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 14, 2021, 10:18:50 PM
Ah, jolly good. Looks like I'll be reading that version in a few months then.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on January 15, 2021, 07:19:22 AM
Didn't finish the Day Of The Doctor book because I just found it too old and familiar, being used to the TV version.

It's bloody great, and changes more stuff than a Hulke or Cotton novelisation. Loads and loads of seeing events from different characters personal perspectives; while most of the plot is the same, very few of the individual events are; when jokes from the telly version are in the book, he usually changes either the set-up or the punchline, and more new jokes than you'd get in a hundred years of Chibnall episodes. Go back when you're in the right mood and you'll probably love it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on January 15, 2021, 12:19:53 PM
The Rose and the Day of the Doctor novelisations are both terrific. I'm really looking forward to Shearman's Dalek one, should be good.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on January 15, 2021, 12:41:39 PM
So do they own Target now, or is it just some kind of licensing deal
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 15, 2021, 06:23:37 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/2/2f/NA031_stanthonysfire.jpg)
Doctor Who and the New World Order St Anthony's Fire by Mark Gatiss

I enjoy a good mystery. And this book has mystery in spades. After dropping Ace off for a holiday in a forest on a nearby planet, The Doctor and Benny head off to Betrushia to see its famed rings. When they land in the middle of a war between two facts of the reptilian species living there, the book threatens to go down that road. But then we have the armies unable to contact any of their cities and major towns, city-sized black ships flying over and destroying everything in sight, inexplicable earthquakes, an amorphous yellow creature rising from the ground and eating people, and rumours of an ancient evil - The Keth - returning to destroy all life on the planet. Meanwhile, an unnamed woman (Ace, obviously), spends her life, shaved-headed, in service to a Cathedral run by a sadistic faith whose main aim seems to be killing anyone who doesn't serve Saint Anthony, and torturing anybody who does. As she escapes her monastic life, she discovers she's actually in a technologically advanced building (the black ship, obviously).
It's a proper page-turner of a book, and I got through it in two sittings. The religious satire in it is about as unsubtle as they come - the sadistic, murderous zealots trying to indoctrinate or kill the whole galaxy turn out to be Catholics - but I enjoyed its bluntness, particularly as the leader, Magna Yong, is clearly a grotesque, exaggerated character written for laughs (at one point he tortures and kills a kitten). The resolution is basically just technobabble, reminiscent of some of the more questionable Star Trek episodes, but this didn't bother me too much as I generally enjoyed the writing and overall story.
I was quite surprised to find the book is rated quite poorly by a lot of fans. After a lot of exceptionally slow, boring stories and tedious grimdark shit, this felt like a breath of fresh air to me. The Betrushians are a believable species who are written with enough sympathy to make them feel like 'people', whilst regularly reminding us that they are in fact reptiles. The plot had enough mystery and interesting reveals that were neither patronising nor inexplicable or oblique to keep me wanting to read more. The main characters were all very well portrayed. Great stuff.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on January 15, 2021, 07:26:38 PM
written for laughs (at one point he tortures and kills a kitten).

Nothing really to add, I just thought it would be funny to strip that of any context. I do remember this one being one of my favourites at the time it came out though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on January 16, 2021, 04:14:20 PM
Lovely little Tom Baker interview here:

https://twitter.com/grahamkw/status/1350455577806336004
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on January 16, 2021, 04:25:43 PM
Lovely little Tom Baker interview here:

https://twitter.com/grahamkw/status/1350455577806336004

Thanks for that - I didn't realise he was writing more memoirs, that's fantastic. Bless him.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Pranet on January 21, 2021, 12:02:49 PM
Seem to be remember someone on here bemoaning the fact that the Wife In Space website was taken down- well Neil Perryman has put it back up "until lockdown is over".

http://wifeinspace.com/
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 21, 2021, 12:06:16 PM
Cracking stuff!  (anyone else here got the full set of paperbacks?)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on January 21, 2021, 12:22:31 PM
Season 24 bluray announced

https://twitter.com/DrWhoOnline/status/1352224532841586694
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 21, 2021, 12:28:56 PM
Here's the trailer : A Business Proposal for Mel! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLb-rlZQA9k)

(https://i.imgur.com/CVaGfUV.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/ND6aEOF.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 21, 2021, 01:17:25 PM
Fucking hell, that's a bold move.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on January 21, 2021, 01:41:11 PM
You have to chuck out a dud every now and then, you can't just leave them all until the end. Anyway, it's not as bad as its reputation suggests. Yes, the first story is the worst thing ever, but the rest is good. Yes, it is.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 21, 2021, 01:45:56 PM
Always enjoy the special trailers they do for these sets.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 21, 2021, 02:06:43 PM
but the rest is good. Yes, it is.
Oh God it's not. Paradise Towers is a good idea utterly ruined by an appalling script, laughable acting and CBBC production values. Delta and the Bannermen is a non-story with a couple of mildly amusing lines in it. Dragonfire is the only half decent story there. I hate myself for paying £50 for this horrible, horrible series.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Registering to lurk on January 21, 2021, 02:49:14 PM
I hate myself for paying £50 for this horrible, horrible series.

That's pretty much what I said when series 23 was announced.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Peru on January 21, 2021, 02:52:34 PM
Wow- £50 for the worst series of Doctor Who ever broadcast.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on January 21, 2021, 02:53:21 PM
The extras usually justify buying these for me if the seasons are a bit weak. The curse of being a completest.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on January 21, 2021, 02:53:58 PM
Wow- £50 for the worst series of Doctor Who ever broadcast.

Both of Colins are worse due to the presence of Colin.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 21, 2021, 03:18:06 PM
Oi! Colin is actually the BEST Doctor Who!

And I am unanimous in this!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 21, 2021, 03:21:54 PM
£50?  Wow.  Quite surprised they can justify selling a season 23-26 set for the same price as any preceding one.  They are half the length of any season after 1970!  Only a third of a 1960s season!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 21, 2021, 03:24:18 PM
Oi! Colin is actually the BEST Doctor Who!

And I am unanimous in this!

Honestly, when I see interviews of him from this era I think he could have been a good Doctor.  He had a quiet, dry, eccentric wit that came across when he could be relaxed and spontaneous.  But I don’t think he was capable of portraying those qualities without being spontaneous.  With any script, anything rehearsed, he was ponderous and theatrical.

The bellowing, stomping Doctor.  Not my cup of tea personally but my preference has always been for nuanced and interesting things rather than that kind of one-note, big-faced, overly actorish stuff.  You’re not miles away on a stage, Colin!  You can try something more subtle!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: McDead on January 21, 2021, 03:30:58 PM
I'm delighted this set is coming out, but fuck me, fifty quid for fourteen episodes... The extras better be bloody good.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 21, 2021, 03:32:00 PM
£50?  Wow.

£44.99 actually, and if you order it from Amazon you could get it for £39.99 and they've got a £5 off (for any order over £25) - type in DISCOUNT5P in the vouchers box at the checkout.

Limited to the first 10,000, but it was still available this morning, so worth a go (only works once though!)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 21, 2021, 03:32:36 PM
The extras usually justify buying these for me if the seasons are a bit weak. The curse of being a completest.

I reckon that if you already have all the DVDs they should give these blu ray sets to you gratis, as a reward for being a good human being.


Tokens, mate.  Weetabix style.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 21, 2021, 03:45:30 PM
Honestly, when I see interviews of him from this era I think he could have been a good Doctor.  He had a quiet, dry, eccentric wit that came across when he could be relaxed and spontaneous.  But I don’t think he was capable of portraying those qualities without being spontaneous.  With any script, anything rehearsed, he was ponderous and theatrical.

The bellowing, stomping Doctor.  Not my cup of tea personally but my preference has always been for nuanced and interesting things rather than that kind of one-note, big-faced, overly actorish stuff.  You’re not miles away on a stage, Colin!  You can try something more subtle!

It sounds like a joke doesn't it - "Colin Baker is the Best Doctor" - but then I'm weighing his tiny TV ouvre against well over a hundred Big Finish stories - all a world away from the bellowing prick character he is on the TV.

Off the top of my head, one to get a flavour would be 'Doctor Who and The Pirates' - it's free on spotify, Bill Oddie's in it, and episode 3 is a musical! (All you need to know is that he's currently traveling with a middle aged history lecturer called Evelyn Smythe - who has a fondness for chocolate cakes)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on January 21, 2021, 04:09:28 PM
I've got all four S24 DVDs and I find myself perfectly well catered for in the extras department. There's nothing that would tempt me to fork out a further 40-something quid on the same episodes, certainly not desperate looking stuff like At the Doctor's Table.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on January 21, 2021, 04:14:13 PM
If they'd put the entire extras budget into refashioning Paradise Towers with Sylv, Bonnie and new guest cast, making it look vaguely competent and professional... then I'd be interested.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Blofelds Cat on January 21, 2021, 04:30:12 PM
Wow- £50 for the worst series of Doctor Who ever broadcast.

Not been watching the current series then?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on January 21, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
Season 23 wants to sort this out in the car park right now
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Peru on January 21, 2021, 04:39:17 PM
Not been watching the current series then?

The current series-which I strongly dislike-is a masterpiece compared to season 24.

Edit: not a masterpiece, but merely the presence of competent direction, set design, lighting and music sets it ahead.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 21, 2021, 04:46:47 PM
Not been watching the current series then?

Indeed.  Chibnall is in another league of shite, and it's depressing because you have to be in a special enclave of the internet to know that anyone else agrees with you on this FACT.  Whereas it was fashionable to despise Doctor Who in 1987.  Easy-peasy.


'Time and the Rani' could have been interesting if it had gone ahead as originally planned - Colin wouldn't only have returned for a regeneration scene as many youtubers claim, but the entire story.  It would have been a sixth Doctor story, with him sacrificing himself at the end instead of that random Lakertyan character.  It's not a great start to a new Doctor to let someone die for you, is it.  But the sixth Doctor could have regenerated in the seventh at the end of it, turning 'Paradise Towers' into Sylvester McCoy's messing-around-trying-on-costumes story.

I have a soft spot for 'Paradise Towers' because I saw it when I was 7 and I found it frightening.  There's something unsettling about this era of Doctor Who which might not make sense to slightly older or younger people.  I never really noticed the pantomime or cheap aspects of - it was an inexplicably nightmarish story with a deep sense of foreboding running through it.  Even 'Time and the Rani' spooked me at the time, because the Doctor was being tricked by the Rani's disguise as Mel.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 21, 2021, 04:47:58 PM
The current series-which I strongly dislike-is a masterpiece compared to season 24.

Edit: not a masterpiece, but merely the presence of competent direction, set design, lighting and music sets it ahead.

Goodness me, mate!  Incorrect!!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Peru on January 21, 2021, 06:13:39 PM
Goodness me, mate!  Incorrect!!

Well, I’m not claiming it’s anything other than my opinion. But season 24 has dreadful scripts, the performances are atrocious with the exception of McCoy and Aldred, the show looks like a school panto, the music (esp Paradise Towers) sounds like a preset on a keyboard, the costumes are dreadful, the lighting and direction are godawful....I mean there’s absolutely nothing down for it. Conversely I’m a big fan of seasons 25/26, where they really pulled it together (probably because they didn’t put it together in six weeks).

The new series are badly written and often poorly acted, but at least it actually looks like something that was coherently put together.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on January 21, 2021, 06:27:09 PM
£44.99 actually, and if you order it from Amazon you could get it for £39.99 and they've got a £5 off (for any order over £25) - type in DISCOUNT5P in the vouchers box at the checkout.

Limited to the first 10,000, but it was still available this morning, so worth a go (only works once though!)

Yoink! Thank you.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on January 21, 2021, 07:24:32 PM
Just the 25 hours of behind the scenes footage.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on January 21, 2021, 11:00:53 PM
You have to chuck out a dud every now and then, you can't just leave them all until the end. Anyway, it's not as bad as its reputation suggests. Yes, the first story is the worst thing ever, but the rest is good. Yes, it is.

This guy knows what's up. Androzani -> Twin Dilemma is the hugest drop in quality between consecutive Who stories, and Time+Rani -> Paradise Towers is the hugest leap. Yes, it looks like it was made for fivepence and some chewing gum for an audience of children in an after-school timeslot, but - crucially - it was. But from a standing start with no previous experience and about six weeks to get a story from written to shot & edited, Cartmel (via Wyatt) manages to crack out a 2000AD-style take on JG Ballard that absolutely works for seven-year-olds watching between homework and dinner. Feminist anarchist street gangs! Capitalism in decline! Petty bureaucracy being designed to make the poor's life worse, instead of uplifting them! Lovely old ladies who invite you in for tea are actually so monstrously lonely they just want to sap your vitality to eke out another day of misery! Repeatedly pointing out that masculinity is a brain trap that doesn't actually apply to real world situations!

The lighting's rubbish and the robots are the second-cheapest crap imaginable, but the ideas is exactly what Dr Who should be pumping into the impressionable brains of the western world's pre-teens. Also, the original score you can switch to on the discs is better than the done-in-a-weekend replacement that went to air.


Honestly, when I see interviews of him from this era I think he could have been a good Doctor.  He had a quiet, dry, eccentric wit that came across when he could be relaxed and spontaneous. 

As daf suggested, Colin is the best audio Doctor (not least because he reads the scripts first and gives feedback - Davison is too successful to give a shit, and you can literally hear Sylv pause during lines while he turns the pages sometimes). Additional recommendations: Holy Terror, Jubilee, The One Doctor (this is a S24-style light comedy), and the "100" anthology.

Colin watching S24 and clowning on it, from this trailer, looks like a decent enough bonus feature all in itself.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on January 21, 2021, 11:32:44 PM
I do think both Tom Baker and McGann are excellent audio Doctors too. Colin Baker certainly is the biggest improvement in TV to audio.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on January 21, 2021, 11:34:05 PM
Peter Davison cheerfully slags off his own stories, so he'll be a treat here.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: McDead on January 21, 2021, 11:37:18 PM
I keep rewatching the trailer. Cant wait for this.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 22, 2021, 12:33:24 AM
The novelisation of Paradise Towers doesn't fix all the problems - a lot of the naff dialogue is still there - but it certainly gives a much better idea of what the story should be. There are plenty of excellent ideas in there - as Poison To The Mind points out above - but good television should be more than simply ideas. If the dialogue, acting, direction, set design, lightning and score are all appalling then it's still difficult to call it much more than bad telly, even if it's bad telly that meant well.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on January 22, 2021, 02:34:50 AM
It comes across like a pantomime and that doesn't work for Dr Who, which needs a core of seriousness to work well.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Tilt Araiza on January 22, 2021, 02:49:54 AM
The bellowing, stomping Doctor.  Not my cup of tea personally but my preference has always been for nuanced and interesting things rather than that kind of one-note, big-faced, overly actorish stuff.  You’re not miles away on a stage, Colin!  You can try something more subtle!

I don't think Colin was in complete command of his own performance. While he does have a naturally stagy quality, he has other settings other than "floor it". But to get the best out of him, he'd need to have a supportive production around him to properly discuss how to play The Doctor. Here's a clip of him as Paul Merroney (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHTisICREH0) and it's heightened and theatrical, but still pitched at the right level for the scene. I don't think he had to be the shouty Doctor, but enough stuff was going wrong or not being done behind the scenes that he just seems to bellow because he's not really been told what he's meant to be doing.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on January 22, 2021, 06:47:04 AM
I do think both Tom Baker and McGann are excellent audio Doctors too. Colin Baker certainly is the biggest improvement in TV to audio.

Probably a better way to put it, yes.  I haven't heard any of the Tom Big Finishes either, it basically takes a Nev Fountain script to get me motivated to sift through their hundreds of hours of chaff these days.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on January 22, 2021, 07:46:30 AM
Yes, his audios tend to be pretty 'trad. arr.', but I was thinking the other day, just the fact that Tom Baker is still making new Doctor Who stories is something that never fails to put a spring in my step (I swear, one of these days I'm going to wake up and find this has all been a mad dream!)

I'd recommend Foe From the Future - it's free on spotify - it was his first one to be recorded (based on the original story Talons became) - and is still considered one of his best.

Other ones you might dip into are the 'pure historical' Wrath of the Iceni (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-wrath-of-the-iceni-656) (Leela v Boudicca), The Auntie Matter (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-auntie-matter-686) (Romana 1 v PG Wodehouse), and the pair of Jago & Litefoot guest stories : Justice of Jalxar (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-justice-of-jalxar-689) (with Leela), and The Beast of Kravenos (https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/doctor-who-the-beast-of-kravenos-1233) - which has J&L meeting K9 and Romana 2.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 22, 2021, 07:52:20 AM
I don't think Colin was in complete command of his own performance. While he does have a naturally stagy quality, he has other settings other than "floor it". But to get the best out of him, he'd need to have a supportive production around him to properly discuss how to play The Doctor. Here's a clip of him as Paul Merroney (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHTisICREH0) and it's heightened and theatrical, but still pitched at the right level for the scene. I don't think he had to be the shouty Doctor, but enough stuff was going wrong or not being done behind the scenes that he just seems to bellow because he's not really been told what he's meant to be doing.

If only they’d had an assistant there in the wings going “Psssst!  Try not bellowing during this scene!!” and the sixth Doctor would have churned out some nuance every couple of episodes.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Camp Tramp on January 22, 2021, 11:52:28 AM
Listening to Colin in the audios has definitely rehabilitated him in my eyes (or ears in those cases)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 22, 2021, 01:22:24 PM
Maybe I should close my eyes during his television episodes.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Camp Tramp on January 22, 2021, 08:24:33 PM
Maybe I should close my eyes during his television episodes.

Good advice for most 80s 'Who. The sets are often overlit.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 22, 2021, 08:35:15 PM
I have already resolved the overlighting issue by giving myself arc eye on purpose.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: McDead on January 23, 2021, 02:52:00 AM
Just turn down the colour and brightness, and turn up the contrast.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on January 23, 2021, 04:10:27 AM
If the dialogue, acting, direction, set design, lightning and score are all appalling then it's still difficult to call it much more than bad telly, even if it's bad telly that meant well.

Just caught half the last episode on TV, by mega coincidence. Dialogue is fine - lightly stagey, but I don't come to Who for realism (and Wyatt was a playwright, so...). Acting is still totally fine for childrens' TV. Sets are perfectly convincing persuasive as decayed flats and corridors: obviously sets, but you can't expect them to go on location to a real future tower-block-planet. Lighting is far less overblown than most of 1982-87. There are some really great visual set-ups where, eg., the viewer is looking through translucent red Space Venetian Blinds, over the shoulder of Adolf Briers in his excellent, funny uniform, to a bank of surveillance screens, one of which Dr Sylv has hacked into and is trolling Briers on. Keff sucks as usual, but on the DVD/Blu you can switch him off and play the proper score. VERDICT: great kids' telly.

Other ones you might dip into are... The Auntie Matter(Romana 1 v PG Wodehouse)

OK sold!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on January 23, 2021, 10:21:44 AM
Paradise Towers is very flawed but its the first hints of good in years.

Compare with practically everything in Trial of a Time Lord.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Camp Tramp on January 23, 2021, 12:23:52 PM
Who did the original score for Paradise Towers?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on January 23, 2021, 12:37:42 PM
David Snell.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 23, 2021, 12:42:35 PM
David Snell.

What's the story with his score being replaced by Keff?


Keffing Snell would make an immense lovechild.  I hope it's not too late for them to spawn one.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 23, 2021, 03:15:46 PM
Just caught half the last episode on TV, by mega coincidence. Dialogue is fine - lightly stagey, but I don't come to Who for realism (and Wyatt was a playwright, so...). Acting is still totally fine for childrens' TV. Sets are perfectly convincing persuasive as decayed flats and corridors: obviously sets, but you can't expect them to go on location to a real future tower-block-planet. Lighting is far less overblown than most of 1982-87. There are some really great visual set-ups where, eg., the viewer is looking through translucent red Space Venetian Blinds, over the shoulder of Adolf Briers in his excellent, funny uniform, to a bank of surveillance screens, one of which Dr Sylv has hacked into and is trolling Briers on. Keff sucks as usual, but on the DVD/Blu you can switch him off and play the proper score. VERDICT: great kids' telly.
Thing is, earlier Doctor Who didn't have any of these problems you're trying to excuse, and was definitely great kids' telly. Who, at its best, is family telly. Paradise Towers definitely isn't.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on January 23, 2021, 11:50:27 PM
Saw the Dalek scene in It's A Sin. Was very much meant to be the scene from Resurrection when the Daleks blow through the door and attack the soldiers. I bet RTD was loving the fact that he got 'Daleks created by Terry Nation' and Dalek 1 & Dalek 2 on to credits of something again.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on January 23, 2021, 11:58:08 PM
Thing is, earlier Doctor Who didn't have any of these problems you're trying to excuse, and was definitely great kids' telly. Who, at its best, is family telly. Paradise Towers definitely isn't.

Aye, and plenty great scary kids TV show in the 70s that didn't cut quality corners and play it all like a big fucking laugh.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 24, 2021, 08:00:25 AM
Don’t forget Doctor Who was responding to complaints that it had become too violent and scary.  It couldn’t win.

Anyway I did find Paradise Towers scary as a seven year old - I told you.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 24, 2021, 08:05:57 AM
What kids are finding Chibnall’s Who scary and exciting, anyway?  It’s mostly standing around talking, no atmosphere at all.  I work in a school and I never hear a single person talking about Doctor Who now.


If you’re going to say that Chibnall’s Who is better than what we got in the late 80s there needs to be some input from seven and eight year olds, I reckon.  Any parents got any experiences of this?  Any case studies of kids having nightmares from the show now? 
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Camp Tramp on January 24, 2021, 01:31:59 PM
Don’t forget Doctor Who was responding to complaints that it had become too violent and scary.  It couldn’t win.

Anyway I did find Paradise Towers scary as a seven year old - I told you.

That is because you're a cowardly cutlet.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on January 24, 2021, 01:55:02 PM
That is because you're a cowardly cutlet.

WERE yes



firm as a basin now




Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Camp Tramp on January 24, 2021, 02:46:37 PM
WERE yes



firm as a basin now

Cowardly cutlet was definitely a failed attempt at future colonial slang.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on January 25, 2021, 02:49:36 PM
A timely republishing: Andrew Cartmel's SCRIPT DOCTOR: THE INSIDE STORY OF DOCTOR WHO 1986-89 (https://tenacrefilms.bigcartel.com/product/script-doctor-the-inside-story-of-doctor-who-1986-89)


(https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/292789467/script-store.jpg?auto=format&fit=max&w=650)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on January 28, 2021, 02:59:07 PM
Doctor Who and the Tories Falls the Shadow by Daniel O'Mahoney
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/4/43/NA032_fallstheshadow.jpg)

About 30 pages into this book, I had a look online to see if O'Mahoney had written any other Who books. One: The Man in the Velvet Mask. That immediately explained a lot: that book has a similarly grimy, bleak and surreal atmosphere. It's very difficult to accurately describe or review this book, so instead I'll highlight a few things that happen. The TARDIS is yanked off course and lands in a labyrinthine cellar of a mysterious country house. Said house is constructed like an Esher painting. At no point is it explained where and when the story is set (one assumes Britain, 20th century, but it's vague). Two orbs of light torture and kill a child. A man described simply (or indeed extensively) as 'grey' watches over and is killed numerous times. An insect-like creature is transported into a wardrobe. An assassin from an erased timeline arrives on a mission from a secular republican version of Great Britain. Two exceptionally attractive people spend much of the story brutally physically and mentally torturing every character in the book, and occasionally having sex with each other. A botanist tends his man-eating orchids. The Doctor and a mad scientist get trapped in the interstitial plane: the space between every moment in time. Faces of the unborn appear at a window. A woman has sex with a mentally deranged man and his faceless clone. Said mentally deranged man turns into a gestalt of said unborn. A god-like deity from the birth of the universe presides over a dystopian city administrated by Easter Island statues. The city was, in the past, attacked by the Mara. Benny dies. Twice. Every guest character dies.

The format of the NAs means that continuity can be a pain in the arse, and while there's a brief reference at the start to Ace's hair growing back, her character has reverted to the more violent version we had about ten books ago. This is particularly jarring given how much time Mark Gatiss spent setting up her - what I imagine to be not-far-off - departure by having her more peaceful and increasingly uncomfortable in her body armour. In many ways, this book really feels like it should have come before St. Anthony's Fire, as its ludicrous psychological toll would explain that book's initial desire for a holiday, and Ace's decision to move away from violence.

I enjoyed that, anyway. It was utterly confusing and a bit of a mess, but it was daring and inventive and full of surprises.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: BRen on February 01, 2021, 10:11:39 AM
Pretty gutted as I had to sell my seven blu-ray season sets just before Christmas, needed the money.

I keep thinking, 'oh, I'll just buy them again in the future', but the prospect of that is unlikely as they're just going to get more expensive as time goes on aren't they?

What are the chances they'll release a 'complete blu-ray box set' one day after all of the season sets have been released?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on February 01, 2021, 10:49:40 AM
Pretty gutted as I had to sell my seven blu-ray season sets just before Christmas, needed the money.

I keep thinking, 'oh, I'll just buy them again in the future', but the prospect of that is unlikely as they're just going to get more expensive as time goes on aren't they?

What are the chances they'll release a 'complete blu-ray box set' one day after all of the season sets have been released?

I think a digital release seems more likely. If they do release a "complete" box it's bound to be severely limited in number and extremely expensive. Plus they'll no doubt find The Space Pirates the day after it goes on sale.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on February 01, 2021, 10:52:08 AM
Pretty gutted as I had to sell my seven blu-ray season sets just before Christmas, needed the money.

Oof - sorry to hear that!

Quote
What are the chances they'll release a 'complete blu-ray box set' one day after all of the season sets have been released?

Unlikely - though I wouldn't rule out something like a complete Third Doctor or Fourth Doctor Set - I can see that happening.

A complete set, if it happens, would be at least a decade away due to either waiting for missing episodes to return, or the time needed to animate the gaps - and could well be just a bare-bones episodes only affair.

In the meantime, if you want to fill in some of the gaps, I think the US versions might offer a reasonable alternative at a fraction of the price - though without the lovely shelf-hogging packaging.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 01, 2021, 11:26:58 AM
Yes, the US versions are probably your best bet if you're thinking of buying in the future. They're standard packaging, which is a curse and a blessing: ultimately far less lovely as objects, but actually much more sensible, and the idea of having the entirely classic series in a fairly small space kind of appeals to me.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 01, 2021, 12:35:36 PM
When they get around to colourising Invasion of the Dinosaurs episode 1, I hope they release it on DVD too.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on February 01, 2021, 01:11:07 PM
When they get around to colourising Invasion of the Dinosaurs episode 1, I hope they release it on DVD too.

There's a colour version on the DVD. It's not the default and its shonky quality, but it's there.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 01, 2021, 10:35:36 PM
There's a colour version on the DVD. It's not the default and its shonky quality, but it's there.

I know.  I have all the DVDs.  I mean one that isn't shonky, in a special edition.


Considering what they've done with Kinda and various other stories, I feel it's inevitable that they'll revisit Invasion of the Dinosaurs more thoroughly at some point.  The blu ray release seems the most natural time, but I don't have a blu ray player so selfishly hope they'll stick it out on DVD too.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on February 01, 2021, 10:43:55 PM
Unlikely - though I wouldn't rule out something like a complete Third Doctor or Fourth Doctor Set - I can see that happening.

A complete set, if it happens, would be at least a decade away due to either waiting for missing episodes to return, or the time needed to animate the gaps - and could well be just a bare-bones episodes only affair.


I'm wondering that. Just lump the existing discs in bulky amaray cases and package them as The Complete Doctor Who Vol 1 etc. Something like:

Volume 1 - Season 1-3
Volume 2 - Season 4-6
Volume 3 - Season 7-10
Volume 4 - Season 11-14
Volume 5 - Season 15-18
Volume 6 - Season 19-22
Volume 7 - Season 23-Wilderness

Who knows if it would be sustainable but all the work is already paid for, so you would think it would have some sort of an audience that would justify it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on February 04, 2021, 01:54:23 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/LMDUuY0.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/B6bXhBK.png)

Don't know why this made me laugh so much.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on February 04, 2021, 02:15:04 PM
THIS is why he needs to travel with a companion - the soppy sod!

(I mean, regardless of the scam, those "internet pills" could have any old ground-up shit in them!)

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 04, 2021, 02:45:53 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/LMDUuY0.png)

“continued”....

(https://i.gifer.com/3KMl.gif)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on February 04, 2021, 08:38:13 PM
Doctor Who and the Diet Pills

The Doctor: In all my travelling throughout the universe, I have battled against evil, against power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans, Cybermen - they're still in the nursery compared to you. £158.40 of overcharging. That's what it takes to be really corrupt.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 04, 2021, 10:14:58 PM
“continued”....

(https://i.gifer.com/3KMl.gif)

Blimey, seeing this on loop like this, I’ve only just realised they couldn’t even keep his head still while they removed the wig, so his ear moves in the fade.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on February 09, 2021, 11:14:00 AM
Bought myself a load of Hartnell Targets - basically, the missing/incomplete stories.

First one to arrive was ...

The Myth Makers - really, wasn't expecting it to be written from 3rd person POV. Lovely opening few scenes.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 09, 2021, 12:16:41 PM
Ah, the Donald Cotton target novelisations... one of the great treasures of literature
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jenna appleseed on February 10, 2021, 01:39:54 AM
A timely republishing: Andrew Cartmel's SCRIPT DOCTOR: THE INSIDE STORY OF DOCTOR WHO 1986-89 (https://tenacrefilms.bigcartel.com/product/script-doctor-the-inside-story-of-doctor-who-1986-89)


(https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/292789467/script-store.jpg?auto=format&fit=max&w=650)

just got that, it's awesome, thanks.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 10, 2021, 09:24:15 AM
Cheers! Hoping mine turns up today.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 11, 2021, 04:44:12 PM
Doctor Who and Benny's Enormous Breasts Parasite by Jim Mortimer
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/e/ec/NA033_parasite.jpg)

Right.
What this book has going for it is the setting. The Artifact, in which almost the entire book is set, is a... thing in space, the shape of a Klein bottle hundreds of thousands of miles across. Inside it is a world inside-out, with mountains and forests on the rim, a cylindrical ocean flowing through the centre, asteroids and small moons floating around in between. Gravity is barely existent, meaning it's possible to float from one area to the next. Unique and bizarre lifeforms inhabit the ecosystem, from DNA-shifting fungi to metallic spherical bugs, flying jellyfish and circular, seven legged creatures that behave like monkeys. The first third of the book is largely set aside to exploring this mind-bending location. As the story progresses, we 'discover' (although, to me at least, it was pretty clearly signposted fairly early on) that the Artifact is in fact a life form. The ecosystem that has developed inside it is partially beneficial in the way our own bacteria is; other life inside becomes parasitised by the fungus spores, its DNA absorbed, with the parasite eventually bursting out as a sperm that moves into the Artifact's second chamber, containing a moon-sized egg. The ocean, meantime, takes other matter through singularities that exist within the Artifact, out to parts of space where it (somehow) creates suns and gas giant planets which will eventually act as a support system for the egg when it's laid.
It's all a bit ludicrous, but it's explored reasonably coherently and is the potential setting for a really interesting hard SF novel.

What this book doesn't have going for it is the plot. Effectively, two shuttles of students, the Doctor, Ace and Benny arrive, explore the inside of the Artifact, and all either get killed, parasitised, have limbs removed, go blind, spend most of the book in a self-induced coma or suffer some other kind of body horror. Only the main trio get out of the book alive. On the odd occasion that the characters have some sort of impact on the actual goings on, it's not really clear what has happened, why, or how. Given how much time Mortimer spends making an almost incomprehensible world seem very real, it's astonishing how vague and technobable-ish the characters' actions are. Ultimately, I don't quite know what the characters did to escape, or how any of them were alive by the end, or how any of them survived the parasites. I suppose there's some possibility that some of this will be resolved at the start of the next book, but it's unlikely. As it is, the book closes with Benny in a psychologically damaged state, Ace still parasitised and recovering from blindness (somehow), and The Doctor having survived a gunshot to the heart and, separately, having had a brief aborted regeneration. Meanwhile, there's a subplot involving the son of a character from earlier Mortimer novel Lucifer Rising, who adds nothing at all to the plot. And there's a threat of a solar-system-wide civil war that gets forgotten by the final third.

The characters were a mixed bag. The Doctor is absent for three-quarters of the book, and extremely vague and quiet when he's there. What character he has is at least in line with his usual self at this point. Benny is still Benny, and brings the only humour in the whole book. Ace is actively unpleasant throughout, pretty much bullying a guy - previously a shuttle pilot - because he's - justifiably - absolutely terrified of everything going on, and chastising him for refusing to pluck out her eyes with a shard of glass. She finally decides that she's definitely going to leave soon which, at this point, is a bit of a relief, as in the past few books she's reverted to the tediously angsty character she was when she returned from her soldiering sabbatical. The only guest characters of real note are an unusually evolved monkey creature who has some intelligence and provides some light relief, and Midnight, a man from the start of the book who has evolved into a weird shapeless blob for no obvious reason, who manages to have more warmth, humanity and sympathetic feelings than any of the actual human guests.

There's the basis for a truly excellent book in Parasite. The Artifact, its ecosystem and life-cycle, and everything that lives inside it are all ripe for deeper exploration. It would make the setting for a superb TV show. Unfortunately, Mortimer's taste for body horror, torture porn and general grimness overrides any of that potential.

Still, Benny's got massive tits, eh lads?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on February 11, 2021, 04:54:45 PM
Mortimore is an arsehole. Try and find an editor he hasn't managed to piss off. He seems to love taking umbrage after submitting books and scripts that go completely against the brief he was given, then acting like the editors are unprofessional when they object.

Here's what he said about current DW:

"The BBC agenda is demonstrably biased. (To the point where in a episode where none of the male characters were anything other than stupid, naive or ineffectual only white actors were cast, as opposed to other episodes where the casting was diverse) Dr Who is simply one more aspect of their agenda."

So fuck him.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on February 11, 2021, 04:55:06 PM
It's quite a bit of a knockoff of Greg Bear's Eon, which has a similar setting, but with a time element. Mortimore apparently wrote this strictly for the cash while his father was dying, which might be why its such a draining ordeal to get through. Aside from Interference and Shroud of Sorrow, my least favourite Who novel.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 11, 2021, 11:48:29 PM
None of that surprises me much.

I haven't even bought my copy of the next book (the second part of Cartmel's 'War' trilogy, whoop-de-fucking-do) yet, so it'll be a while before the next review. I thought I'd use this gap as an opportunity to share a number of screencaps and photos of notable moments from various books to date. These are all from various Instagram posts over the years. First up...

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wz6FWvzw/dw1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKHv641T/dw2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sg2Qcbr5/dw3.jpg)
It's worth noting that I no longer like Gareth Roberts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZb3bGSy/dw4.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4FDRrt3/dw5.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4Bds3J7/dw6.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on February 11, 2021, 11:58:38 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/ruM4QFj.jpg)

Bloody hell - is that from a Doctor Who novel?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on February 12, 2021, 12:45:57 AM
Heart of TARDIS, a 2nd/4th Doctor BBC novel by Dave Stone.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jenna appleseed on February 12, 2021, 12:46:31 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/ruM4QFj.jpg)

When the fuck was Stanley Unwin in a Doctor Who book?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jenna appleseed on February 12, 2021, 12:47:36 AM
Heart of TARDIS, a 2nd/4th Doctor BBC novel by Dave Stone.

Ah, it's David Stone, that explains a lot. He did some wacky ones iirc.

(Does Stanley Unwin turn up as himself in that book though?
eta or is a monster played by the Kinder surprise humpty (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y72Bz8nJVFo)? )
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on February 12, 2021, 09:03:17 AM
Just reminded me that Sky Pirates! is eventually coming up on purlieu's readthrough. Which I thought was incredible at the time, but everything I've read from Stone subsequently has struggled to live up to it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on February 12, 2021, 09:39:33 AM
Once at the Fitzroy Tavern, Lawrence Miles was earnestly ranting at me about some political issue or other, while Dave Stone made faces at me over his shoulder trying to get me to laugh. So I can forgive him a lot.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 12, 2021, 11:10:53 AM
I have a soft spot for totally daft Who novels, and Heart of TARDIS is definitely one of those. Two and his companions are trapped in some weird bubble universe that is basically Springfield from The Simpsons, while Four, Mary Tamm Romana and UNIT try and sort it out from outside. The above passage is from the perspective of an alien tourist guide who has his Earth history somewhat confused.

Up next, a couple of favourite examples of accidental errors in pirated ebooks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkb1QShd/dw7.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/76ZvrqYZ/dw8.jpg)
Some unnecessary meta stuff:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5JrhvPd/dw9.jpg)
Very daft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vshx2Qyz/dw10.jpg)
And a lovely Brig moment:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYmwtmTD/dw11.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on February 12, 2021, 11:15:22 AM
Heart of TARDIS, a 2nd/4th Doctor BBC novel by Dave Stone.

Creepy weirdo Dave Stone, call him by his name.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 12, 2021, 12:37:24 PM
It's quite a bit of a knockoff of Greg Bear's Eon, which has a similar setting, but with a time element. Mortimore apparently wrote this strictly for the cash while his father was dying, which might be why its such a draining ordeal to get through. Aside from Interference and Shroud of Sorrow, my least favourite Who novel.

Alright dad, are all the tubes fitted in comfortably?  Ok cool just going to sit next to you and work on my laptop if you don’t mind.  Let me know if any of your painkillers run out.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on February 12, 2021, 01:49:02 PM
Edit
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 12, 2021, 02:55:46 PM
just got that, it's awesome, thanks

Mine just arrived! Looks great, loads of fantastic photos.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 12, 2021, 03:00:29 PM
It's a shame Robert Holmes didn't do this. Now that would be a book.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on February 12, 2021, 08:45:51 PM
Mortimore is an arsehole. Try and find an editor he hasn't managed to piss off.

Did you read Campaign? That was rejected by BBC Books, and subsequently Mortimore self-published including appendices which, as far as I remember, included all the disagreements he had with the editor of the range. It was quite something.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 12, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
I just found that online, and will probably end up reading it one day, once I've read everything else there is to read. So quite a few years away now, by which time I'll hopefully have forgotten about it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on February 12, 2021, 09:10:00 PM
Did you read Campaign? That was rejected by BBC Books, and subsequently Mortimore self-published including appendices which, as far as I remember, included all the disagreements he had with the editor of the range. It was quite something.

I read the arguments between him and BBC Books but didn't read the book because life is far too short.

I think he's a very average writer, and the last thing I think I read was The Sword Of Forever, the Benny NA. He thinks he's an awful lot cleverer than he is; non-linearity alone does not make for an interesting read.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on February 12, 2021, 09:34:14 PM
I think I liked Sword of Forever but do remember finding Beltempest a tough read.

Eternity Weeps can go JUMP
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on February 13, 2021, 09:50:12 AM
Bloody hell - is that from a Doctor Who novel?

Haha, i was just about to ask purlieu if he'd come across Sgloomi Po referring to "Good King Hitler", and then he posted that. Now I know which book it's from!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 13, 2021, 11:53:09 AM
Today's selection!

Some interesting snippets from the Doctor's past:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPbFsWYM/dw12.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2S2spdrZ/dw13.jpg)

Satire:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhFS01y7/dw14.jpg)

More satire:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3PXR4mz/dw15.jpg)

A lovely moment:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbTzmHmt/dw16.jpg)

An even lovelier moment:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3G63nbr/dw17.jpg)

And lo, The Avengers is written into the Whoniverse. Jo Grant is friends with Tara King:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9F2Krgf9/dw18.jpg)

For those of you not familiar with the work of Paul Magrs:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCnsDpzN/dw19.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp6SrqNH/dw20.jpg)

TARDIS take-off sequence in full detail:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5pCghmS/dw21.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on February 14, 2021, 12:40:38 PM
haven't even bought my copy of the next book (the second part of Cartmel's 'War' trilogy, whoop-de-fucking-do)

I really like the first two of the trilogy, in all their trendy earnestness. People seem to take Cartmel's almost complete unfamilarity with and disinterest in Doctor Who as a negative in his statistically-minor novels, instead of the joyous positive it was for him running the story part of the TV show*. But there would be another Who novel along next month packed with nerdy injokes and current continuity: if Cartmel wants to write a cyberpunk thriller because it's 1993 and that's what he's reading at the time, go ahead and enjoy it. Or if it's 1995 and he's done his first pill ever and had a hangover after, plus has bored his friends enough about animal cruelty that writing 50 pages of heist movie pulp about a testing lab is his best outlet for helpless fury, let the lad type.

Pretty sure I lolled and tweeted that same David Cameron bit when reading five years ago or so btw.


* I understand there are people who hate both, but they are foolish and can be disregarded.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 14, 2021, 03:33:48 PM
I just found Warhead so utterly joyless and unpleasant, start to finish. Not to mention kind of disjointed.

Meanwhile, Managra:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLcysSXK/dw22.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz6dXtBV/dw23.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRnmWLD4/dw25.jpg)

People writing novelisations of Douglas Adams stories:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsNfwpLH/dw26.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7x2MXLG/dw27.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKkGJp43/dw28.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRkHPNbg/dw29.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzvk3LML/dw30.jpg)

And, of course, the Adric bullying never goes away:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Pn97bps/dw32.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on February 14, 2021, 06:32:51 PM
I really like the first two of the trilogy, in all their trendy earnestness. People seem to take Cartmel's almost complete unfamilarity with and disinterest in Doctor Who as a negative in his statistically-minor novels, instead of the joyous positive it was for him running the story part of the TV show*. But there would be another Who novel along next month packed with nerdy injokes and current continuity: if Cartmel wants to write a cyberpunk thriller because it's 1993 and that's what he's reading at the time, go ahead and enjoy it. Or if it's 1995 and he's done his first pill ever and had a hangover after, plus has bored his friends enough about animal cruelty that writing 50 pages of heist movie pulp about a testing lab is his best outlet for helpless fury, let the lad type.

Pretty sure I lolled and tweeted that same David Cameron bit when reading five years ago or so btw.


* I understand there are people who hate both, but they are foolish and can be disregarded.

I dunno, it always feels a bit annoying when it's really obvious an author who's been commissioned to write for a specific series like this has just grabbed a draft of that unpublished novel they had lying around and done a few quick rewrites. I think one of Virgin's Judge Dredd novels is like that as well.

I know Cartmel was trying to use Dr Who to launch himself into writing for other properties (namely 2000AD), but he really makes it obvious in Warhead.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 15, 2021, 12:47:58 AM
I dunno, it always feels a bit annoying when it's really obvious an author who's been commissioned to write for a specific series like this has just grabbed a draft of that unpublished novel they had lying around and done a few quick rewrites.
It's one of the problems with sci-fi in this era, when it was still seen as a bit of a cult genre where corners could be cut. So many syndication length series have a first season that's 50% scripts that were just passed around from show to show until someone picked them up.

It's weird how little Cartmel's version of the show has to do with the world of his novels. You'd think he would have been on board to expand what we saw on screen rather than just go with the violent cyberpunk dystopia thing.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on February 16, 2021, 09:21:24 AM
Again, I like that he just happened to be into cyberpunky dystopia stuff enough that he wrote some explicitly 90s-style Who novels. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  (also that iirc he just drops the cyberpunky future setting for #2 bcz he's not in that mood anymore?)

Better than his later having to turn into a Cartmel tribute act, writing Sylv'n'Soph classic era stuff like a Telos novella, his Past Doctor Adventure being the only Doc 7 PDA (I haven't read this one), doing an imaginary Season 27 for Big Finish, and teaming up 7 & Ace with the cast of Remembrance in the Australian outback for his Titan comic...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on February 16, 2021, 09:58:29 AM
I've been a fan of the television programme Doctor Who for over 40 years. This spin-off stuff you're talking about sounds bewildering and awful.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 16, 2021, 10:39:26 AM
I've been a fan of the television programme Doctor Who for over 40 years. This spin-off stuff you're talking about sounds bewildering and awful.
To be fair, a lot of the stories are very good, either in being wonderfully bonkers or just excellent solid stories you can imagine on TV. But their comparatively niche nature makes them more susceptible to stuff of questionable quality and really unusual stylistic directions. These are often more interesting to discuss than "Mark Gatiss did a really good Third Doctor story that felt like a proper Third Doctor story."

Here is my final batch of oddities.

Good chapter titles:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJ0YYnrh/dw42.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2QD19Py/dw38-jpg.jpg)

Opening pages that made me go "oh, it's going to be one of these books:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4Zxr4cQ/dw33.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L62YP9FD/dw39.jpg)

Alien pretends to be an Australian human:
(https://i.postimg.cc/020SX60h/dw34.jpg)

More Beatles nonsense:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zk621yc/dw35.jpg)

A fine example of the quality control and excellent proof reading that goes into the NAs:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpKtpf2L/dw36.jpg)

Satire:
(https://i.postimg.cc/43qHHpXH/dw37.jpg)

Lovely:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGMGx569/dw40.jpg)

This made me laugh more than it should have:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJfNjgzg/dw41.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 16, 2021, 10:51:37 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpKtpf2L/dw36.jpg)


Looks like something that Steven Moffatt might do on purpose.


I've never touched any spin-off stuff either. Hang on, I did read a few pages from a Chris Boucher one in a charity shop once. It was okay. Should have bought it really, I guess.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 16, 2021, 10:54:22 AM
Wait, tell a lie, I caved in to curiosity a while ago and downloaded a dodgy PDF of Larry Miles' Alien Bodies (since used copies of the book itself were going for silly prices). It was... entertaining. I liked what he did with the Krotons.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on February 16, 2021, 04:16:26 PM
Alien Bodies is a high point.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on February 18, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
I've been a fan of the television programme Doctor Who for over 40 years. This spin-off stuff you're talking about sounds bewildering and awful.

Several of the '90s novels were so bold and daring that they kept the very notion of Dr Who alive and wild in enough nascent writers' minds, and influential enough to fundamentally shape the version of it that became a worldwide hit in the late '00s/early '10s. Many drill right up their own fundaments with continuity wank, or are guntit fests that even Eric Saward's subconscious daredn't dream of.

A handful of the '00s audios are among the richest, most inventive, best-acted Who that has ever existed. A solid 97% of Big Finish's output is tedious "we found a gap between two scenes in Arc Of Infinity and squeezed 17 stories in there. Pre-order them now on four separate CD box sets, to be released annually starting in 2023" guff.

(Based on yr Chibnall posts, I reckon you'd enjoy the novels of Kate Orman, and the audio plays of Rob Shearman and of Nev Fountain.)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on February 18, 2021, 02:01:05 PM
A handful of the '00s audios are among the richest, most inventive, best-acted Who that has ever existed. A solid 97% of Big Finish's output is tedious "we found a gap between two scenes in Arc Of Infinity and squeezed 17 stories in there. Pre-order them now on four separate CD box sets, to be released annually starting in 2023" guff.

I saw that they're doing some based on her from Planet of the Dead now. Fucking hell, who asked for that?

I've recently watched Revenge of The Cybermen and The Twin Dilemma, and while they obviously aren't actively good, I didn't think either of them was as terrible as their reputations suggest. The plot of both are based on absolute nonsense, but they don't really ever get completely unwatchable like some of the very worst Who.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on February 18, 2021, 02:04:43 PM
I saw that they're doing some based on her from Planet of the Dead now. Fucking hell, who asked for that?

I noticed the other day that they announced a 2nd boxset of her adventures. Was surprised they even released one.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 18, 2021, 04:03:49 PM
Ah yes, Lady Christina, one of that I can't believe got past the drawing board.
I've recently watched Revenge of The Cybermen and The Twin Dilemma, and while they obviously aren't actively good, I didn't think either of them was as terrible as their reputations suggest. The plot of both are based on absolute nonsense, but they don't really ever get completely unwatchable like some of the very worst Who.
Yeah, they're a bit naff but just sort of... there. Quite why The Twin Dilemma has reputation for being the worst story is beyond me.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 18, 2021, 04:42:39 PM
I watched The Twin Dilemma again the other week after another thread appeared on Gallifrey Base slating it for the Doctor's treatment of Peri in episode one, and... yeah, it's basically like watching a manual on domestic abuse. The strangulation scene is the bit that attracts most criticism but I'd forgotten all the subsequent stuff the Doctor does to mess with Peri's head - denying the attack ever happened and questioning her truth ("Oh, don't be absurd... what you say is impossible"), admitting his error then deciding on a pathetically self-indulgent course of atonement that will actually cause her to suffer more than him, baselessly accusing Peri of putting his life in danger (when Lang threatens to shoot him). The most chilling moment is when Peri says "I think I'm going to be sick... I don't know. I don't know anything any longer." I mean, that's the objective of every domestic abuser, to scare their victim so much that they lose touch with their own sense of what's real.

The darkest thing about it is that it's so accurate, part of me thinks it couldn't have been written by someone who didn't have experience of such behaviour, either as abuser or abused (legal disclaimer: or by someone who'd done a lot of research).

By around halfway through episode two it does become just normally and hilariously shit.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on February 18, 2021, 04:54:23 PM
It has Maurice Denham in it who makes anything worth a watch.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 18, 2021, 04:54:43 PM
I watched episode one of Revenge Of The Cybermen too the other week, now why was that... oh yes, I remembered it was filmed on the same sets as Ark In Space (because, like, it's set in the same place) but I've never really recognised any of them. I mean, they don't use the main cryogenic chambers set. The only one that stands out as an obvious reuse is the curved external corridor with its starfield backdrop.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 18, 2021, 04:56:39 PM
It has Maurice Denham in it who makes anything worth a watch

Pretty much its only positive. I think there was a moment during episode three when I started to become vaguely engaged with the story of the twins' abduction and Mestor's plan to ejaculate his seeds across the universe but only fleetingly, before Hugo stepped in a big slime trail.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on February 18, 2021, 05:02:04 PM
Season enders following something brilliant with something shit. Odd how often that happened.

Genesis - Revenge
Androzani-Twin Dilemma
Earthshock-Time-Flight
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 18, 2021, 05:28:55 PM
Shit/brilliant:
S2: The Chase/The Time Meddler
S3: The Savages/The War Machines
S4: The Faceless Ones/Evil Of The Daleks
S6: The Space Pirates/The War Games
S11: The Monster of Peladon/Planet of the Spiders (just about)
S22: Timelash/Revelation
S25: Silver Nemesis/Greatest Show

Brilliant/shit:
S5: Fury from the Deep/The Wheel in Space
S12: Genesis/Revenge
S17: Nightmare of Eden (yes it is)/The Horns of Nimon
S19: Earthshock/Time-Flight (why is it hyphenated?)
S21: The Caves of Androzani/The Twin Dilemma

Brilliant/brilliant:
S7: The Ambassadors of Death/Inferno
S13: The Brain of Morbius/The Seeds of Doom
S14: Robots/Talons
S18: The Keeper of Traken/Logopolis

Shit/shit:
S9: The Mutants/The Time Monster
S15: Underworld/The Invasion of Time
S23: Terror of the Vervoids/The Ultimate Foe

On the cusp:
S1: The Sensorites/The Reign of Terror
S8: Colony in Space (I think it's okay)/The Dæmons (not quite as good as it's cracked up to be)
S10: Planet of the Daleks/The Green Death
S16: The Power of Kroll/The Armageddon Factor (I quite like both of these, sorry, I know the majority of people think they're shit)
S20: Enlightenment/The King's Demons (I mean obviously the gulf in quality between them is huge but I still wouldn't describe The King's Demons as 'shit')
S24: Delta/Dragonfire
S26: Fenric (which I don't like but plenty seem to)/Survival
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on February 18, 2021, 09:46:22 PM
Quite why The Twin Dilemma has reputation for being the worst story is beyond me.

It's worst first episode for any Doctor by a country mile. It's got a toxic Doctor abusing his companion. Horrid performances. Horrid music. Horrid production design. Horrid costumes. A terrible script made worse with shockingly shit dialogue.  It's just got nothing going for it at all. And the Doctor and Peri's moment of levity at the very end just feels grimy - he tried to strangle you and then ground you on a distant planet, Peri, get the fuck out of there!

Imagine if they'd had tone meetings back in the day. You couldn't rescue this story but you could at least elevate it from "actively toxic" to "below average".

Was Eric Saward asleep at his desk? No doubt he'd say it's all JNT's fault. God, I hate his tenure as script editor - he plainly doesn't understand the show he's working on and tries, repeatedly, to make it a different beast, with no success. He tries to replace charm with violence and serves Colin an unworkable characterisation of a charmless, dislikeable Doctor you wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes with.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 18, 2021, 09:52:34 PM
When JNT was interviewed around the time Davison's departure was announced, he talked about wanting somebody more in the mould of Hartnell - "older and crotchety".  Which is an understandable and natural contrast to make after Davison's Doctor (the showrunners would take a similar step after Matt Smith's Doctor, too).

Quite how this translated into strangling and emotional/psychological abuse which was then shrugged off by the Doctor and Peri as mild bantz - fuck knows.  Beyond idiotic.  And offensive in its blasé treatment and casual detachment.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on February 18, 2021, 11:17:26 PM
Shit:
S2: The Chase
Get out.


I actually forgot how fucking awful The Doctor is at the start of The Twin Dilemma, so yeah, I get the response a bit better now. The main story itself I don't think is any worse than a handful of other '80s stories, which is what baffled me.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on February 18, 2021, 11:36:22 PM

I strongly object to The Savages, The Faceless Ones, Silver Nemesis, Revenge of the Cybermen and The Horns of Nimon being labelled as shit.  And Planet of the Spiders, Revelation of the Daleks, Earthshock and The Keeper of Traken being labelled brilliant, for that matter.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on February 18, 2021, 11:44:50 PM
Shit/brilliant:
S2: The Chase/The Time Meddler

The Chase is delightful silly fun, an RTD-style romp with multiple celebrity historicals and a few good gags in each location*. You could remake it now as a single-camera Chibnall-length 65-minuter and it'd be great.

Quote
S25: Silver Nemesis/Greatest Show

S25 is in intended/production order in my head, so that's a brilliant / shit. Though I half-rewatched Nemesis for the first time since 1989 recentlyish, and the cast are having enough fun to just about carry it.
 

 
*and they feel baked-in enough to be former Hancock writer Terry Nation trying to be funny for the only time in B&W Who, rather than Dennis Spooner sprucing things up. even though it's probably Spooner.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on February 18, 2021, 11:46:31 PM
And Planet of the Spiders, Revelation of the Daleks, Earthshock and The Keeper of Traken being labelled brilliant, for that matter.

Revelation isn't brilliant, but it's one of only two good Colin telly stories, so let the rhetorical flourish stand.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on February 18, 2021, 11:47:53 PM
Never seen anyone with a good word to say about Silver Nemesis before
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on February 19, 2021, 12:11:06 AM
There's one brilliant moment in Silver Nemesis - when the Doctor uses jazz to block the Cybermen's invasion signal. "It is meaningless..."

The rest is properly shit though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on February 19, 2021, 12:27:17 AM
Always roll my eyes at that bit where the Doctor goes on about his favourite kind of Jazz - "Straight blowing" - Writers forcing their own musical tastes on the Doctor.

Yeah, we get it Cartmel - you like jazz. Well done, have a peanut!




Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on February 19, 2021, 02:24:31 AM
Never seen anyone with a good word to say about Silver Nemesis before

"I had it on in the background and it was almost bearable" might be the highest praise it's ever had to date, yes.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 19, 2021, 07:45:36 AM
The Chase is delightful silly fun, an RTD-style romp with multiple celebrity historicals and a few good gags in each location*. You could remake it now as a single-camera Chibnall-length 65-minuter and it'd be great.

I have never heard of 65 minutes being described as “Chibnall-length” before now.  Is that a Gallifrey Base thing?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on February 19, 2021, 10:29:07 AM
Nah, just that Chibnall's series openers, closers and specials run about that [[checks: 64 min, 60 min, 59 min, 60 min, 65 and 71 minutes (that last for this January's special. The 50th anniversary internationally-released cinema 3D movie was only five minutes longer!)]], with approx three actual events and no memorable dialogue taking place in any given one. Fillet the two-and-a-half hours of The Chase down to that length and you've got at least 12 things happening in an hour, plus the cheap laughs get enhanced being closer together.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 19, 2021, 01:15:21 PM
60-70 minutes is surely just "special length" by post-2005 Who standards. 

Evoking Chibnall in any capacity immediately suggests abject shitness ("Chibnall-length" = "shit length"), which is pretty unfair on The Chase, even a hypothetical edit.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on February 19, 2021, 11:22:15 PM
He's abject at any length, but at least you knew where you were with "42." It rankles that Moffatt would regularly have to cut 50-minute eps down to 44, and 70-minute specials down to 55, where everything you hear about being tossed out sounds ace and would have made the episode better, but Chibnall gets a standard weekly length of 50 mins and to blow out to an hour when he fancies, just to make room for the whole fam to say "What is it, Doctor? Some kind of alien viewscreen?" "Yeah Doc, what d'you call that thing?" "I get it - it's like one of the earth televisions you see in doctors's waiting rooms, yeah?" [pause while the Doctor reads the alien brandname on the bottom of the screen and googles it on her sonic screwdriver, then reads the result out to the fam.]

 
 
(It'd rankle less if Moffatt wasn't so totally opposed to releasing anything but the TX cut on home video: all the season 26 stories keep getting luxurious extended edits because someone put the tapes on a shelf, but in 30 years time the hard drives with the missing bits of series 6 through 10 probably won't be readable, if they've even been archived.)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 19, 2021, 11:27:31 PM
The argument is that the 50 minute standard running time is to make up for Chibnall only being allowed to make 3 episodes per series, but yes even that minimal quantity per eighteen months subtracts from the quality of Doctor Who long term.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on February 20, 2021, 09:43:47 AM
Several of the '90s novels were so bold and daring that they kept the very notion of Dr Who alive and wild in enough nascent writers' minds, and influential enough to fundamentally shape the version of it that became a worldwide hit in the late '00s/early '10s. Many drill right up their own fundaments with continuity wank, or are guntit fests that even Eric Saward's subconscious daredn't dream of.

The New Adventures could be incredibly hit and miss, but the fact they took such risks (not to mention using writers who were untried) was what made them such a thrilling prospect. A real playground for wild concepts and ideas with presumably minimal editorial interference. Some of that spirit definitely infuses the rebooted show under RTD & Moffat, but I always get the feeling that whole wilderness era of the show basically passed Chibnall by, as his version of the show feels like the antithesis of it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on February 20, 2021, 12:13:58 PM
If Chibnall's version of the show was actively the antithesis of the wilderness years, I'd be perfectly happy.  If it was actively anything I'd be able to embrace his version of the show as having that agency despite being not my cup of tea.

But instead there's something about his style that feels like it's on autopilot.  Something about the deadness of everything, the way everyone speaks like they're all on the autistic spectrum and forced to communicate against their will, the way nothing ever happens onscreen.  The sheer passivity of everyone and everything.

Even as the show wikipedias its way through concepts that wreck the mystery of the entire set-up, there's no flipping drive behind it.  It's a mind-bending combination of shit.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on February 21, 2021, 03:16:37 PM
Jon Culshaw was on Celebrity Mastermind last night with the Pertwee Era as his specialist subject. Questions were easy and really longwinded.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on February 21, 2021, 03:26:37 PM
Jon Culshaw was on Celebrity Mastermind last night with the Pertwee Era as his specialist subject. Questions were easy and really longwinded.

Yeah it struck me how long-winded they were too, some of them it seemed like he was reading out chunks of the Target novelisation.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on February 21, 2021, 06:59:24 PM
Everything about Celebrity Mastermind is about asking as few questions as possible to help disguise how thick everyone on it is. That's why they brought in the chat show portion.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on February 26, 2021, 04:37:09 PM
Currently up to Iceberg in my NA read-through, not terribly written but flippin' heck it's a bit slow getting going. Eighty pages in and no sight of a cyberman yet, and the Doctor's only appeared on about five pages so far.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 02, 2021, 03:11:54 PM
S8 Collection Trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HiOZLEEp4k
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 02, 2021, 05:12:47 PM
Still no release date?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 02, 2021, 05:47:50 PM
Still no release date?

8th of March according to Amazon although it thought it was supposed to be later in the month. By the look of that trailer the BBC3 reports in The Daemons look a bit different. Only watched it a couple of weeks ago on BritBox and don't remember it looking like that and I don't think it's just an upscale.

Have found the quality of the eps on Britbox a bit shit at times. I'm sure the DVD versions are crisper.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 02, 2021, 06:00:37 PM
8th of March

Cheers. Usually gets delayed a couple of times on Amazon, so we'll see.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on March 02, 2021, 07:37:38 PM
S8 Collection Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HiOZLEEp4k)

Forgot that I'd ordered this - (back in November I think it was).

Insane that it's sold out months before it's even released. They must know by now that there's a huge demand, so why aren't they printing up more copies?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 02, 2021, 07:44:23 PM
I love that particular exchange about the TARDIS being dimensionally transcendental.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 02, 2021, 08:01:16 PM
8th of March according to Amazon although it thought it was supposed to be later in the month. By the look of that trailer the BBC3 reports in The Daemons look a bit different. Only watched it a couple of weeks ago on BritBox and don't remember it looking like that and I don't think it's just an upscale.

Have found the quality of the eps on Britbox a bit shit at times. I'm sure the DVD versions are crisper.

Should be the starkest improvement in PQ since Season 19 (which had loads of HD footage).

Terror of the Autons and Colony in Space are restored from scratch. The DVD restoration has also been added for Colony in Space due to the improved Colony in Space restoration having some disadvantages over the old restoration. Something to do with improving jagged edges/resolution but compromising on frame rates/fluidity.

The Mind of Evil has had lots of additional work to 2-6 but isn't restored from scratch. They didn't have time or budget to improve on the manual colourisation used for Episode 1. Stuart Humphryes (who did the manual colourisation) was a little upset they didn't contact him as he felt there could have been improvements to Episode 1. At some point you just need to pick your battles so I completely understand them deciding that the existing Episode 1 was satisfactory.

The Claws of Axos is based on the Special Edition DVD restoration with lots of further work. The old DVD restorations of two episodes, which are in the same boat as Colony in Space, have also been included.

The Daemons is based on the DVD master but has had lots of fixes including some manual colourisation to some of the worst sections.

They looked into the Chroma Dots (which have been used to restore colour for most B&W Pertwee eps) for Autons and Daemons but neither were viable for improvements.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 02, 2021, 08:05:07 PM

Forgot that I'd ordered this - (back in November I think it was).

Insane that it's sold out months before it's even released. They must know by now that there's a huge demand, so why aren't they printing up more copies?

It keeps going available then unavailable as the suppliers increase allocation. Amazon nearly always sells out before release but then becomes available again in the final week before release and then goes out of stock just before release.

All but a couple of the sets have still been available on release day so I think they are broadly doing a good job on gauging demand whilst not keeping stock high enough to have them sitting on a shelf. They have reprinted a few of them (Season 12 and 14 definitely have had reprints).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: BRen on March 02, 2021, 08:10:26 PM

Forgot that I'd ordered this - (back in November I think it was).

Insane that it's sold out months before it's even released. They must know by now that there's a huge demand, so why aren't they printing up more copies?

I think it's due to them being marketed as boutique, limited edition releases with the special packaging etc.

Even the sets they reissued (12, 14) are selling for about £80-£90 on average on eBay now. Seasons 10, 18 and 19 all sell for about £150-£200 a piece.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 02, 2021, 09:08:02 PM
I think it's due to them being marketed as boutique, limited edition releases with the special packaging etc.

Even the sets they reissued (12, 14) are selling for about £80-£90 on average on eBay now. Seasons 10, 18 and 19 all sell for about £150-£200 a piece.

I've noticed a few of the Baker sets selling around RRP on eBay now so hopefully it's a case of people refusing to pay the ridiculous mark-up. Doctor Who has definitly became a 'how can we milk the fans' franchise of late. Has anyone seen the digital trading cards shite? Leonard Nimoy's estate has even got in on the act as well. It's almost something Peter Kay would do in a set.

Digital? Trading Cards? Cards that are digital and cost money? Knowing fine well a portion of fandom with money to burn will fork it out. I mean fucking hell sureley the cost of producing these things and what they sell them for no matter how few they sell is nothing but profit.

One of the packs sells for £50. 50 fucking quid for jpegs on your screen. Big Finish are no better. Exploiting completists with endless releases. I've said it countless times before but I'd love to see their sales figures. Someone (possibly on here) even looked on Companies House to try find out.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 02, 2021, 09:35:05 PM
Yes, sadly anything with a cult fanbase tends to exploit people[1] (with the exception of Grant Naylor Productions who, despite a fanbase gagging for figurines and models and audio adventures, continue to operate on an 'occasional t-shirt with a spelling mistake' level of merchandising) with endless merch that nobody actually wants and has no inherent worth. The BBC have continually stated that these will be the last physical releases of Classic Who, and if they're to be believed then it means we won't be getting any 'regular' editions like the sensibly sized US versions, which is ludicrous. In an era when physical media is definitely slowing down, you'd think they'd be trying to milk every last penny out of it by continually reprinting these editions until the market is saturated, rather than making fewer copies than the demand exists for and letting second hand copies go for ludicrous money.

 1. It bothers me more that most of the people with the compulsion to buy everything are going to be autistic. Not an intentional decision, but a sad fact.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Registering to lurk on March 02, 2021, 09:40:22 PM
I think it's due to them being marketed as boutique, limited edition releases with the special packaging etc.

Even the sets they reissued (12, 14) are selling for about £80-£90 on average on eBay now. Seasons 10, 18 and 19 all sell for about £150-£200 a piece.

And which set did I manage to buy twice? Series 23.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on March 02, 2021, 10:14:53 PM
Big Finish are no better. Exploiting completists with endless releases. I've said it countless times before but I'd love to see their sales figures.

I'd be surprised if many of their releases break 10,000 copies. The deluxe Box sets [6th Doctor Last Adventure, Tennant's series] are limited from between 4,000 to 10,000 copies - and often take a few years to sell out (the Tennant ones are probably the most popular releases - given how quickly they went)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 02, 2021, 10:22:15 PM
S8 Collection Trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HiOZLEEp4k


On the day the return was announced of BBC3...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 02, 2021, 10:39:27 PM
I'd be surprised if many of their releases break 10,000 copies. The deluxe Box sets [6th Doctor Last Adventure, Tennant's series] are limited from between 4,000 to 10,000 copies - and often take a few years to sell out (the Tennant ones are probably the most popular releases - given how quickly they went)
Those are still pretty good figures, given that (tenuous comparison here) you can get into the UK top 100 albums with around 1,000 sales (including digital) these days.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 03, 2021, 03:07:45 PM
S8 Collection Trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HiOZLEEp4k


One thing this did make me realize is that I don't have The Dæmons on DVD. I think this was because I fell for the c. late 90's backlash against it constantly being described as the best Pertwee UNIT story. Anyway that aberration has now been rectified and it's gone straight to the top of my 'to watch' stack.

Just missing The Silurians and The Sea Devils, and Frontier In Space and Planet Of The Daleks from the Pertwee years now, as I was too stingy to get their respective box sets.


Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Billy on March 03, 2021, 03:35:15 PM
Frontier in Space was the first Who VHS I bought back in early 1997, I wanted a Pertwee as he'd recently passed away and I considered him "my" Doctor even though I was born over a decade after he stopped playing the role - looking back it's probably hazy memories of the early 90s BBC2 repeats that caused that. The choices at the local WHSmith in Hereford were that, The Sea Devils and The Monster of Peladon, and it was probably the presence of Daleks on the cover that swayed me to it.

It's quite refreshing now to be able to buy the DVDs for a few pounds each second-hand, which I still stick to as I don't have a blu-ray player. The double-tape videos were £16 or so as recently as 20 years ago, although somewhere I have a VHS of The Mutants that was bought at something silly like £2.99 new as it was 2004 and Smiths were desperately clearing out their tapes to make way for newer technology. CeX even have the New Beginnings boxset (Traken/Logopolis/Castrovalva) for £3, which for a quid a story is ludicrous value.

The flipside of this are the really, really stupid prices I paid in the early noughties for the out of print VHS releases, not quite understanding that if I just waited a few years they'd all be a lot easier to watch. When I visited the Who shop in Blackpool back then, The Hand of Fear wasn't even on the main shelves and was high up over the counter surrounded by laser alarms as that one was gold dust for a good few years - it had a really limited time on sale (I think it got deleted quickly after release for some reason) and I wouldn't be surprised if it sold for three figures second hand. Of course if I really wanted something I'd just wait until UK Gold got around to it and tape the early morning omnibus, I had a copy of The Twin Dilemma this way (another rarity on video) seperated by multiple adverts for Phones 4 U and Michael Winner advertising eSure.

Tell that to the kids of today and they'll never believe yer, etc etc.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 03, 2021, 04:31:18 PM
Just missing The Silurians and The Sea Devils, and Frontier In Space and Planet Of The Daleks from the Pertwee years now, as I was too stingy to get their respective box sets.

You can still get all four stories off Amazon for £20 total.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 03, 2021, 10:07:50 PM
Turns out there's a series of Lytton comics (https://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/cutawaycomics-from-the-world-of-doctor-who-lytton-issue-3/)?!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 03, 2021, 10:12:39 PM
Turns out there's a series of Lytton comics (https://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/cutawaycomics-from-the-world-of-doctor-who-lytton-issue-3/)?!

Ah I forgot about those. I thinking I posted about it when they were crowdfunding for them last year or the year before.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on March 04, 2021, 10:00:51 AM
Big Finish kicking themselves that Maurice Colbourne's dead.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Blofelds Cat on March 04, 2021, 10:11:34 AM
Big Finish kicking themselves that Maurice Colbourne's dead.

When has that stopped them?

They've got Jon Culshaw on speed dial
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 04, 2021, 10:31:03 AM
You can still get all four stories off Amazon for £20 total

Yeah, probably will eventually. Watched them through when I borrowed them off a mate a few years ago so not desperate to see them again just yet.

Crazy how the DVD range, which started in 1999 and ended as a regular thing with Terror of the Zygons in 2013, has itself pretty much become a historical artefact. Watching the special features, half the participants are themselves now dead and gone. Topical references to the heady days of the Eccleston/Tennant/Smith eras.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 04, 2021, 11:40:47 AM
The DVD extras can be fun to revisit. I was listening to the commentary on one of them (I forget which) from about 2000 and they were talking about Wanda Ventham. One of the talkers starting speaking about her son being at RADA. "Benedict Camber ... something."
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 04, 2021, 11:43:13 AM
Then there's the one where Toby Hadoke asks Frazer Hines what he thinks about global warning, and Jamie starts on a rant about how it's all conspiracy nonsense. Clearly wasn't what poor Toby was expecting.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 04, 2021, 01:43:09 PM
Doctor Who and the Apocalypse of Farthing Wood Warlock by Andrew Cartmel
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/2/2c/NA034_warlock.jpg)

Fucking hell.
So the most obvious thing about this book is how different it is from Warhead. Although set in roughly the same era, with two of the same characters, it has next-to-none of the society-falling-apart bleakness of that book. This came as quite a relief to me, as I really didn't fancy another slog through gangs and pointless murders and general unpleasantness. It's also much more straight-forward overall, with two alternating stories that culminate at the end, as opposed to Warhead, which felt like a collection of sketches bodged together. Instead, we have a hallucinogenic drug called Warlock that's being hunted down by an American anti-drug bureau called IDEA, particularly focusing on one of its operatives, a chap called Creed (apparently the brother of a character in Warhead, but I don't remember him at all); elsewhere, Ace joins some animal rights activists in trying to shut down a vivisection clinic where the drug is being tested. Some weird stuff happens along the way: Canterbury Cathedral is destroyed by a fireball; Ace and her friends are captured and end up with their minds in the bodies of dogs and cats; Creed and a character from Warhead break into Buckingham Palace to shag.

And yet, despite all this, the book feels slow and like there's very little happening. Possibly because there isn't: for the bulk of the novel, it isn't clear what the plot is meant to be. It's structurally very different to Warhead, but still manages to capture the same aimless, wandering feeling. How characters discover things, or get from one place to another, is never mentioned. And then we're hit with the last 25 pages, which are pretty much an infodump of exposition. So much is revealed in them that they end up making the plot more confusing, rather than less. I think Cartmel was aiming to capture the experiences of the characters as they happened, removing the omniscient narrator, but in no way does it benefit the reader, instead making the final chapters jarring and almost unreadable. We discover who the head of IDEA is and what his aims are, and we find out that Warlock is actually an alien intelligence. One of the villains (a loose definition) is killed in a confusingly vague way. The other villains (actual villains, this time) are dispatched in a clearer, but still totally vague way.

Warlock is a political book, one that makes points rather than tells a coherent story. One of the main points is anti-animal testing. It's a stance I sympathise with, so perhaps I didn't need the pummelling, but fucking hell the animal cruelty scenes were heavy going. One of the scientists is psychotic, who takes his rage out on animals and enjoys torturing them, in ways that are heavily detailed. At another point, we experience the torture and death of a cat from the perspective of the cat's inner monologue. Despite being very much aware of the manipulative text, I nearly choked up at the cat's conclusion that, as it had always felt better after being injected at a vets, the lethal injection it was given was actually medicine and thus the torture must have all been an act of love. Still, at least those sections had a purpose. Elsewhere, one of the main characters is kidnapped and sent to work in a brothel, for no particular reason at all. Another character is literally ignored to death. The book's other message is only revealed in the ending infodump: IDEA was actually created to scare people into keeping drugs illegal, as otherwise it would become obvious that they should be decriminalised. While the animal rights issue was treated with all the subtlety of a flatulent elephant in an echo chamber, the drugs issue was tossed away in a single sentence. Jarringly, Jack turning into a dog is utterly hilarious, which is so at odds with the rest of the book.

It's hard to talk about the characterisation, because the three main characters are absent from the bulk of the book. The Doctor is in maybe a fifth of the chapters, Benny only a couple more, and even then they barely contribute. Ace plays a larger role in her plot, but even then the limelight is given to the guests, Jack and Shell, and the various evil scientists. Of all the guest characters, Creed is the only one who is fully fleshed out, and he is generally likeable, which really helps make the book a fairly easy read, as half of it is told from his perspective. Vincent and Justine return from Warhead, only I remember so little about that book other than its tone that this meant little to me. They contribute very little to the plot. Mrs. Woodcott also returns from that book, and is little more than a plot device.

In short: a mess. A much more streamlined mess than Cartmel's previous novel, but a mess nonetheless. His prose is breezy, making it a fairly easy read, but the content is sadly lacking. The ideas behind the book are sound, but are presented so badly that they basically ruin the plot of the book itself.

So that was fun. Can't wait for the final part of his War trilogy in a few months!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on March 04, 2021, 10:02:31 PM
Season 8 unboxing > > > here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSI1qkfWgl4)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 05, 2021, 07:31:31 AM
One of the talkers starting speaking about her son being at RADA. "Benedict Camber ... something."

Why couldn’t she remember the surname of her own son?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 05, 2021, 07:33:26 AM
Season 8 unboxing > > > here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSI1qkfWgl4)

“The Damons”
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 05, 2021, 09:39:03 AM
If it's good enough for Howard Stableford (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYKDKJaqgZw)


Wow, must watch this later: Tomorrow's World Christmas Quiz 1988 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc5FhysK8pU) featuring Sylvester McCoy

In danger of falling down a Tomorrow's World rabbit hole now
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: M-CORP on March 05, 2021, 11:12:12 AM
Then there's the one where Toby Hadoke asks Frazer Hines what he thinks about global warning, and Jamie starts on a rant about how it's all conspiracy nonsense. Clearly wasn't what poor Toby was expecting.

My favourite Doctor Who DVD feature is the Earthshock documentary. For some inexplicable reason they got the Shadow Transport Secretary of the day to talk about the story (can't remember his name but this was during the Blair years, so he was a Conservative). There was brief talk of their previous appearance in 1975's 'Revenge of The Cybermen' - 'they weren't terribly convincing, but then what do you expect from Cybermen under a Labour government? Anyway, come 1982, Thatcher was in power, and these are much better Cybermen, you now have David Banks, all round a much improved performance!'

As the next talking head starts talking, the camera remains on Mr Shadow Transport so you can see his smirk implying that yes, he is joking and not taking this too seriously.

(Incidentally, other favourites include the documentary on the City of Death DVD, just 'cos it's quite funny (David Agnew's 'This Is A Fake' letter). Also the series 2 boxset of new Who featured a video diary where David Tennant watches The Christmas Invasion with his family, and they bicker like any old family at Christmas, much to Tennant's delight.)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on March 05, 2021, 05:04:47 PM
“The Damons”

Matt Damons!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on March 05, 2021, 09:26:11 PM
My favourite Doctor Who DVD feature is the Earthshock documentary. For some inexplicable reason they got the Shadow Transport Secretary of the day to talk about the story (can't remember his name but this was during the Blair years, so he was a Conservative). There was brief talk of their previous appearance in 1975's 'Revenge of The Cybermen' - 'they weren't terribly convincing, but then what do you expect from Cybermen under a Labour government? Anyway, come 1982, Thatcher was in power, and these are much better Cybermen, you now have David Banks, all round a much improved performance!'

As the next talking head starts talking, the camera remains on Mr Shadow Transport so you can see his smirk implying that yes, he is joking and not taking this too seriously.

Tim Collins. Tory cunt. I guarantee you - he was taking it completely seriously. He read The Dying Days in one sitting on the night of the 1997 general election so he could claim he'd read all the New Adventures under a Conservative administration. This pathetic claim has even made it to his Wikipedia page. He's now a lobbyist.

Did I mention he's a Tory cunt?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alternative Carpark on March 07, 2021, 09:15:49 AM
Although one of the New Adventures got delayed and didn't eventually get published until later in May, ie after Labour had been elected. Did he wait until 2010 to read that one?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on March 07, 2021, 04:43:56 PM
Terror of the Autons : 1971 v 2021 effects comparison video > > > here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ2mCVvMIWo&t=1s)

(https://i.imgur.com/mqUXlhh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LDO0HJU.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lAOX5wi.jpg)

Very nicely done - I think Barry Letts should be spinning with delight on his buddhist cloud!

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 07, 2021, 04:48:57 PM
Amazon just took payment for my Season 8 BluRay. They reckon it’s going to be delivered tomorrow.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 07, 2021, 07:08:13 PM
I do love that they used CSO to put a woman into a kitchen

"YES LOVE THAT'S IT, DON'T WORRY YOU WILL BE AT A BUILDING SITE DURING THIS SCENE."
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 08, 2021, 12:58:42 PM
My Season 8 set has just arrived. Really looking forward to this one. Not rewatched any of them since they came out on DVD but it has always been a favourite season.

Colony in Space was one of the first stories I saw when I started getting into Doctor Who from the UK Gold repeats and it has always felt like an underrated classic.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on March 08, 2021, 05:14:26 PM
Colony in Space was one of the first stories I saw when I started getting into Doctor Who from the UK Gold repeats and it has always felt like an underrated classic.

I love Colony In Space. Something about it feels...real, which is quite impressive when you consider it was made for £0.04. And it's still depressingly relevant now - IMC could be Nestlé.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 08, 2021, 05:29:09 PM
Yeah, it gets some dislike for its slow pace, but I've always really enjoyed it.

When did the BBFC change their rating logos? The 12 on the spine of this box looks fucking horrible.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 08, 2021, 05:37:15 PM
My Season 8 set has just arrived.

I got a payment refused email last night. My credit card has changed since last November, and despite deleting the old one and replacing it in January, they tried to used the old one for payment. So I added my new card specifically to that order and it tells me it's due NEXT Monday now.

So fuck knows if it'll come. Already up to £93 on Amazon.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 08, 2021, 05:43:04 PM
Yeah, it's a pain in the arse when you change cards. The initial payment will have been made for that exact card, regardless of what info you have stored in your account. You'd think by this point sites would have a "your card is currently linked to existing purchases, would you like to update details on those?" message when you remove a card or when it expires.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on March 08, 2021, 05:43:36 PM
I hate them, the limited edition creating bastards.  Hate them so much.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 08, 2021, 05:54:26 PM
Yeah, it's a pain in the arse when you change cards. The initial payment will have been made for that exact card, regardless of what info you have stored in your account. You'd think by this point sites would have a "your card is currently linked to existing purchases, would you like to update details on those?" message when you remove a card or when it expires.

I never even thought about going in and changing pre-orders when I changed cards as it was a couple of months earlier. Luckily I know able to do it for the season 24 box set due to this.

Hopefully it'll be okay, but live and learn.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 08, 2021, 07:06:52 PM
If you don't manage to get your copy them keep an eye on Amazon Spain and France. I ended up getting Season 14 on Amazon Spain a few days after it came out after my Zoom copy took a couple of weeks after release to arrive and I was worried about waiting.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 08, 2021, 07:08:15 PM
If you don't manage to get your copy them keep an eye on Amazon Spain and France. I ended up getting Season 14 on Amazon Spain a few days after it came out after my Zoom copy took a couple of weeks after release to arrive and I was worried about waiting.

Thanks. I'll nosey around if it gets cancelled.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 08, 2021, 07:14:21 PM
I love Colony In Space. Something about it feels...real, which is quite impressive when you consider it was made for £0.04. And it's still depressingly relevant now - IMC could be Nestlé.

Admit it - you double-checked when decimal currency came in before hitting ‘post’.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on March 08, 2021, 07:33:14 PM
Admit it - you double-checked when decimal currency came in before hitting ‘post’.

Almost - I changed it from "tuppence ha'penny".
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 08, 2021, 07:37:22 PM
Thanks. I'll nosey around if it gets cancelled.

I've noticed a couple of the Baker sets going for almost RRP on eBay so there is a hope that people have bought them to punt on at a profit but nobody's willing to pay it anymore so they're going for normal prices.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 08, 2021, 07:40:06 PM
Almost - I changed it from "tuppence ha'penny".

fuckin knew it


and you were a bit disappointed as well that you had to change it
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: vainsharpdad on March 08, 2021, 09:50:04 PM
Thanks. I'll nosey around if it gets cancelled.

Argos has stock reservable...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 08, 2021, 10:07:19 PM
I've noticed a couple of the Baker sets going for almost RRP on eBay so there is a hope that people have bought them to punt on at a profit but nobody's willing to pay it anymore so they're going for normal prices.

Argos has stock reservable...

Virtual + karma. Hopefully it'll show up, but if not ...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 09, 2021, 07:06:47 PM
Katy Manning, Lisa Minnelli and Noel Coward having tea together. This In Conversation is crazy.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 09, 2021, 07:23:31 PM
I fucking love Katy Manning.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 09, 2021, 08:16:51 PM
Hallelujah!

(https://i.ibb.co/MRWqSdz/Screenshot-2021-03-09-Order-Details.png)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 09, 2021, 09:06:41 PM
That'll be a relief! Enjoy.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on March 09, 2021, 09:09:07 PM
I love Colony In Space.

A treat in store for you - they included two complete versions of it on the set!

The reason for this was that though the new restoration looks much better - [using the b&w telerecording combined with the NTSC colour luminance] - the original 'jagged' DVD version (which was a PAL > NTSC > PAL  'Reverse Standards Conversion') was included as it contains a bit more picture information round the edges.

I had the old DVD and the new version playing simultaneously (on two players plugged into the same set), and had fun switching between them. New version wins hands down!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 09, 2021, 09:19:36 PM
That'll be a relief! Enjoy.

Cheers! I will. It's one of my favourite season.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 09, 2021, 09:43:19 PM
In addition to the two versions of Colony, they also have an extended version of one episode. I mean it is only a few seconds longer but still it is nice to have.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 10, 2021, 04:35:27 PM
It's arrived! And I even got a one pound discount.

(https://i.ibb.co/Khxqv9x/Ew-Ib-CS0-WEAEVz-Fx.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on March 10, 2021, 05:18:04 PM
It's arrived! And I even got a one pound discount.

Same! Pre-ordered it back in November, apparently Amazon listed it at £38.99 originally, the FOOLS.

Mine arrived yesterday and I spent the evening wallowing in Autons. It's a thing of beauty, isn't it?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 10, 2021, 05:29:04 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/mqUXlhh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LDO0HJU.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lAOX5wi.jpg)



Totally never seen the point of CGI on classic series releases. I don't want it to look shiny and new! I want it to look a bit washed out and fuzzy like I remember it. A new kitchen background? Think I can live without that.

The snake in Kinda was ace though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 10, 2021, 05:44:06 PM

Totally never seen the point of CGI on classic series releases. I don't want it to look shiny and new! I want it to look a bit washed out and fuzzy like I remember it. A new kitchen background? Think I can live without that.

The snake in Kinda was ace though.

I've been going through the Pertwee era on BritBox recently and it's the updated effects version of Day Of The Daleks they have on there. Wasn't really a fan of them. Stood out a bit too much for me.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 10, 2021, 06:18:31 PM

Totally never seen the point of CGI on classic series releases. I don't want it to look shiny and new! I want it to look a bit washed out and fuzzy like I remember it. A new kitchen background? Think I can live without that.

The snake in Kinda was ace though.

It's an interesting alternative at best. So long as I can still watch the original version then I have no real problem with it. I bought a Star Trek: TOS set and they had updated the effects, but the original versions weren't on it. The extras were full of twats talking about how they'd 'improved' things.

I've been going through the Pertwee era on BritBox recently and it's the updated effects version of Day Of The Daleks

Speaking of which. The DVD of Day of the Daleks is infuriating. Just full of twats slagging off the effects and acting. Lads, I bought the DVD, I'm obviously a fan of it!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 10, 2021, 06:19:16 PM
Same! Pre-ordered it back in November, apparently Amazon listed it at £38.99 originally, the FOOLS.

Mine arrived yesterday and I spent the evening wallowing in Autons. It's a thing of beauty, isn't it?

It's a damn sexy thing.

EDIT: new page lusting.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 10, 2021, 07:02:12 PM

Totally never seen the point of CGI on classic series releases. I don't want it to look shiny and new! I want it to look a bit washed out and fuzzy like I remember it. A new kitchen background? Think I can live without that.

The snake in Kinda was ace though.

The work on the CSO for the CGI option is a revelation. Really is incredible how they managed to fix it as much as they have. The CGI Nestene at the end is a bit much but it matches Terrance Dicks' description of what he wanted and is based on one of the Target covers. I certainly won't watch it switched off again.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 10, 2021, 10:45:14 PM
I've been going through the Pertwee era on BritBox recently and it's the updated effects version of Day Of The Daleks they have on there. Wasn't really a fan of them. Stood out a bit too much for me.

It’s the Dalek voices that ruin the DVD special version of Day of the Daleks for me.  The originals were very poor but Nicholas Briggs doesn’t contribute era-appropriate replacements to the mix.  They sound like his epic Time War Daleks when he should really have focused on making them sound like the Daleks of the 60s or Genesis.

Such a missed opportunity; it actually leaves me quite annoyed they didn’t spot that and fix it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on March 10, 2021, 10:49:07 PM
I really like the CSO replacement but they have no business tinkering with that little poo goblin, that’s one of the best things in all of Doctor Who
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 11, 2021, 06:26:59 AM
It’s not a George Lucas situation at least; the originals are still presented on their respective releases.

Bit concerning that BritBox is being inconsistent with which version they are streaming, though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 11, 2021, 12:39:05 PM
It’s the Dalek voices that ruin the DVD special version of Day of the Daleks for me.  The originals were very poor but Nicholas Briggs doesn’t contribute era-appropriate replacements to the mix.  They sound like his epic Time War Daleks when he should really have focused on making them sound like the Daleks of the 60s or Genesis.

Such a missed opportunity; it actually leaves me quite annoyed they didn’t spot that and fix it.

I forgot about the Dalek voices. Was there a reason given for why they got Briggs in to redo them? I don't remember them being particularly awful in the original version or anything.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 11, 2021, 12:46:24 PM
I forgot about the Dalek voices. Was there a reason given for why they got Briggs in to redo them? I don't remember them being particularly awful in the original version or anything.

They’re pretty bad in the original.  It’s clear that nobody could remember how Daleks sounded when they made it.  https://youtu.be/2A4E8eI-6YM

Compared with the new version here, which makes them sound like they’re ramping towards the finale of Eccleston’s series:  https://youtu.be/uiUpUvOrivI


Whenever you get those official documentaries about Dalek stories on the DVDs there are three “negatives” mentioned by the talking heads:  the Chase was silly, the voices in Day of the Daleks, and the Daleks “used to be organic lifeforms” and are just accepted as being robots in Destiny.  (And something about Davros eating a mars bar.)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 11, 2021, 01:49:42 PM
Do they fix "Nocomplications"?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on March 11, 2021, 02:24:44 PM
Do they fix "Nocomplications"?

Cut entirely! For shame.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on March 11, 2021, 02:52:34 PM
That's the best bit!!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 11, 2021, 03:24:39 PM
Yes, it's wonderful.

I always think Styggron's utterly daft intonation of "are the preparations com-pleet?" in The Android Invasion deserves more recognition: https://www.instagram.com/p/2MOUGCmgIy/
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 11, 2021, 07:55:27 PM
I'm watching the Behind the Sofa extras on the bluray and have discovered that Sacha Dhawan & Anjli Mohindra are a real life couple. Attractive pair.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 11, 2021, 08:33:50 PM
I'm watching the Behind the Sofa extras on the bluray and have discovered that Sacha Dhawan & Anjli Mohindra are a real life couple. Attractive pair.

I had seen quite a few pictures of them together and thought they hung out a fair bit. Jammy bugger!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 11, 2021, 10:12:33 PM
Christ, if they have kids they're going to be perfect.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on March 12, 2021, 01:34:11 AM
My initial thoughts:

1. Blimey, you mean he's not gay?!

2.  She's far too young for you, you dirty old... oh, ok, she's not.  36 & 31.  How time flies.

3.  Shit, that means it's nearly 10 years ago that Elisabeth Sladen passed away.  Doesn't seem possible.

Anyway, hope they're very happy together, the lucky sods.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: notjosh on March 12, 2021, 10:35:45 AM
It's an interesting alternative at best. So long as I can still watch the original version then I have no real problem with it. I bought a Star Trek: TOS set and they had updated the effects, but the original versions weren't on it. The extras were full of twats talking about how they'd 'improved' things.

Don't know which set you picked up but the one I bought had the option to watch the originals. Good luck finding them on a streaming service anywhere though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 12, 2021, 12:13:01 PM
Don't know which set you picked up but the one I bought had the option to watch the originals. Good luck finding them on a streaming service anywhere though.

The DVD only has the remaster. The Blu-ray has both.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 12, 2021, 03:47:19 PM
Yes, my set is a DVD, so that explains it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on March 14, 2021, 09:55:51 PM
Here's the trailer : A Business Proposal for Mel! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLb-rlZQA9k)


surprisingly delightful
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on March 14, 2021, 10:05:02 PM
Those ones are already out.

Resurrection and Revelation aren't very good.

Resurrection is bizarre. Think its about page 49 or 50 where there's a page long detour on jam. Like a rubbish dark attempt at Douglas Adams.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 14, 2021, 10:19:30 PM
Saward’s Target novelisations from the 80s were all attempts at being Douglas Adams. They’re frequently quite amusing, but very unoriginal and it’s hard to ignore the fact that it feels like he’s trying to cover up narrative weaknesses with out of place humour.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alternative Carpark on March 15, 2021, 06:36:49 AM
Saward’s Target novelisations from the 80s were all attempts at being Douglas Adams.

Apart from his first one, The Visitation, which is relatively standard.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on March 15, 2021, 07:02:56 PM
Saward’s Target novelisations from the 80s were all attempts at being Douglas Adams. They’re frequently quite amusing, but very unoriginal and it’s hard to ignore the fact that it feels like he’s trying to cover up narrative weaknesses with out of place humour.

Cheers.

I look forwards to Revelation.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on March 15, 2021, 08:55:26 PM
Just got my copy of Rob Shearman’s Dalek novelisation! I’m going to read fuck out of it
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on March 15, 2021, 09:03:20 PM
Just got my copy of Rob Shearman’s Dalek novelisation! I’m going to read fuck out of it

Been listening to the audiobook today, it’s an absolute corker. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 15, 2021, 09:23:40 PM
Saward’s Target novelisations from the 80s were all attempts at being Douglas Adams. They’re frequently quite amusing, but very unoriginal and it’s hard to ignore the fact that it feels like he’s trying to cover up narrative weaknesses with out of place humour

Don't forget, if it's straight-down-the-line target style adaptations you're after there are always these, which could have come straight from the pen of Terrance Dicks:

Resurrection of the Daleks by Paul Scoones (https://doctorwho.org.nz/archive/resurrection/) | Revelation of the Daleks by Jon Preddle (https://doctorwho.org.nz/archive/revelation/)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 16, 2021, 12:31:34 AM
Yes, those are the two I read when a year or two back when I was working my way through. They're surprisingly decent. I'll probably get around to Saward's once I've finished my whole run, whenever that may be.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on March 16, 2021, 08:17:20 AM
Revelation better.

Also this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHCl7zpWkAIGNMJ?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on March 16, 2021, 09:54:29 AM
What a rude prick!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on March 16, 2021, 10:20:10 AM
How much ruder than the contents of the interview must he have been for them to think "Fuck it, publish"?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 16, 2021, 10:26:48 AM
I still have that issue somewhere. One of the best things they ever printed!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 16, 2021, 10:38:38 AM
That's brilliant. "I'm sure you'll write something nice." So they just publish it as it is to show what an arse he was.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on March 16, 2021, 10:41:19 AM
Every so often, he's quite charming and then ... not so much.

Also, I want to hear Duncan from Blue talk spaceships.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on March 16, 2021, 10:44:34 AM
As mentioned, it's all on tape, so if he were to complain, they've got evidence of what a prick he was.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 16, 2021, 11:44:11 AM
Yeah, I love that interview. Why would you agree to do an interview and then be like that?!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: olliebean on March 16, 2021, 12:13:21 PM
He probably thinks it's his schtick.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on March 16, 2021, 12:49:54 PM
David Tennant alludes to Clive Swift being egotistical prick on set in a later interview, plus Swift must have been a nightmare for RTD to allow that interview to run.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on March 16, 2021, 12:52:17 PM
A cunt interviewees thread would be fun
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on March 16, 2021, 01:06:48 PM
Gary Downie, Bidmead... Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Phil_A on March 16, 2021, 01:52:07 PM
I though Richard E Grant came across a bit of a dick when he was interviewed around the time of Scream Of The Shalka, not on the scale of a Downie or a Swift though. The whole piece ended up being mildly surreal though as at one point an over-eager PA forced Ben Cook to hide in a stationary cupboard so he wouldn't disturb The Actors.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 16, 2021, 02:26:06 PM
Bidmead was brilliant. In no way a cunt.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on March 16, 2021, 02:57:57 PM
Bidmead was brilliant. In no way a cunt.

He's not a cunt like Swift or Downie are cunts, but his interviews post-2005 are hilarious for all the wrong reasons. He's tiresomely self-aggrandizing (as anyone who's heard his DVD commentaries will know), and hearing the man who brought us Logopolis disdainfully labelling RTD "a first draft writer" is eye-rolling in the extreme.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on March 16, 2021, 03:01:28 PM
Logopolis is great though
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on March 16, 2021, 03:06:53 PM
He's not a cunt like Swift or Downie are cunts, but his interviews post-2005 are hilarious for all the wrong reasons. He's tiresomely self-aggrandizing (as anyone who's heard his DVD commentaries will know), and hearing the man who brought us Logopolis disdainfully labelling RTD "a first draft writer" is eye-rolling in the extreme.

Terrance Dicks calling him a liar in the pages of DWM was a good laugh, as was Bidmead's claim he dated Helen Mirren when they were at RADA.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on March 16, 2021, 03:12:56 PM
Logopolis is great though

It has its moments. But the story proper takes forever to get started. It spends its entire first episode measuring a box. And, worst of all, it has the ludicrous "let's flush the TARDIS out" sequence.

Terrance Dicks calling him a liar in the pages of DWM was a good laugh, as was Bidmead's claim he dated Helen Mirren when they were at RADA.

Oh, I'd forgotten about Terrance saying that! Those late period "no fucks given" Dicks interviews were terrific. In fact, I think Doctor Who Magazine's high point was between the late 1990s and 2005, because interviewees stopped giving a shit and just said what they really thought about their co-stars, producers and crew, and the results were amazing.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on March 16, 2021, 04:03:31 PM
It has its moments. But the story proper takes forever to get started. It spends its entire first episode measuring a box.

Not as bad as Castrovalva, where the story doesn't start until halfway through episode 3. The episode 3 cliffhanger in that would be a great episode 1 cliffhanger for a story. Oh, and all that "index file!" shit.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on March 16, 2021, 08:14:31 PM
It has its moments. But the story proper takes forever to get started. It spends its entire first episode measuring a box. And, worst of all, it has the ludicrous "let's flush the TARDIS out" sequence.

I wouldn't mind that so much but then he makes a big deal about how science-based his vision of Doctor Who is.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 17, 2021, 10:56:17 AM
And, worst of all, it has the ludicrous "let's flush the TARDIS out" sequence

Great, isn't it! Magnificently erratic behaviour from a Doctor who's cracking up at the end of a long incarnation. As he prepares to open the doors you do suddenly think, "Fuck! They're actually going to try this on a Doctor Who budget!". And if it's padding... well, better some mad shit like that than Saward's preferred method of filling time, the gratuitous bickering scene.

Imagine if Bidmead had carried his policy of not arriving at titular locations until the second half of the story through to Frontios. Two episodes of navigating a meteor storm. 
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 17, 2021, 11:11:49 AM
Not as bad as Castrovalva, where the story doesn't start until halfway through episode 3. The episode 3 cliffhanger in that would be a great episode 1 cliffhanger for a story. Oh, and all that "index file!" shit

I do love the TARDIS stuff in the first couple of episodes - the potential was there for them to be properly tense and exciting but with the exception of Davison, who flies out the trap, they're not directed or performed with any urgency or conviction (or in the case of the companions much competence at all, sadly). Actually the worst bit of filler is the interminable journey through the woods once the TARDIS has arrived, featuring that excruciating bit where the wheelchair ends up in a river.

I've mentioned this before but here's how I would have tightened up the structure of season 19:

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on March 17, 2021, 11:34:32 AM
Wasn't 'Xeriphas', the early version of Time-Flight, initially down as Tom's regeneration story? <shudder>
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on March 17, 2021, 12:01:16 PM
Wasn't 'Xeriphas', the early version of Time-Flight, initially down as Tom's regeneration story? <shudder>

It was planned as the last story of the season, yes, but before Tom decided to leave. It was bumped due to script issues. Logopolis was formally commissioned after Tom announced he was going.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 18, 2021, 06:27:42 PM
  • To balance the episode count, hack Time-Flight down to two episodes - excise all the prehistoric Earth crap and make it a claustrophobic, Midnight-style adventure set largely aboard Concorde.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on March 18, 2021, 06:43:46 PM
Great, isn't it! Magnificently erratic behaviour from a Doctor who's cracking up at the end of a long incarnation. As he prepares to open the doors you do suddenly think, "Fuck! They're actually going to try this on a Doctor Who budget!". And if it's padding... well, better some mad shit like that than Saward's preferred method of filling time, the gratuitous bickering scene.

Imagine if Bidmead had carried his policy of not arriving at titular locations until the second half of the story through to Frontios. Two episodes of navigating a meteor storm. 

The season before you would have been sure he was taking the piss, but he seems to be serious, which gives it a bit of edge. Much more convincingly mental than the Invasion of Time anyroad.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on March 18, 2021, 09:09:08 PM
  • Instead of making Time-Flight rubbish, make it good.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on March 19, 2021, 10:34:50 AM
I remember watching on UK Gold on a run of Kinda - The Visitation - Black Orchid - Earthshock (and I did not have the ending spoiled that first time) and the first episode of Time Flight is quite good, iirc. A nice puzzle to solve and some decent location work.

Oh, how it stacks it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 22, 2021, 07:50:33 PM
Doctor Who and... I Dunno, Ace's Tits Again Set Piece by Kate Orman
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/8/8c/NA035_setpiece.jpg)

This is a difficult book to talk about.
Narratively, it's very strange. Orman pulls no punches when it comes to going for utter bleakness. The opening section finds The Doctor being tortured for weeks. Ace and Benny both get stranded at points in the past, on their own, both believing the other, and The Doctor, are dead. The Doctor goes through a period of PTSD.
It's mostly a book about Ace, and she's given a lot more depth and warmth here than she has since her return, for the most part. Which is good, as her character goes out on a high, with her leaving the series as a likeable character who's developed and changed, rather than simply an angsty brat. She spends a lot of the book in ancient Egypt, where she spends a lot of time simply living, getting to know locals, befriending Pharaohs, being a waitress again, generally not having too much happen. Benny and The Doctor have similar, if much briefer, spells in Earth's history.
When the three main characters are finally reunited for the final third of the book, it's to the backdrop of revolutionary France. The Doctor is accompanied by Kadiatu, who makes a very long awaited reappearance after departing to find The Doctor at the end of her previous entry, Transit, 20+ books ago. Here she and The Doctor are constantly trying to one-up each other in terms of manipulating the situation and the enemy. I can't remember if this is in keeping with her previous portrayal, because I read Transit so long ago, and it was such a confusingly terrible book that I've blocked most of it out of my mind.
The villain of the piece is an organic ship that has slipped through a rift in time - caused by Kadiatu's DIY time machine - and has malfunctioned, misinterpreting its programming as a need to absorb the consciousness of every being in history. It's all fine, but not really the focus of the book. It's a character-led story, and really exists to give Ace a fitting farewell, as well as bring Kadiatu into things - I'd be astonished if she doesn't reappear somewhere down the line. And it does it very well.
The characterisation of the main three is generally very good, although The Doctor is definitely at his most troubled here. Orman is a genuinely good writer, and the text has a lot of more literary flourishes that set is apart from the generally pulp-like meat-and-potatoes fare of most authors so far.
So yeah, pretty good, and as I say, difficult to write about.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on March 23, 2021, 12:00:21 AM
This isn't my favourite Kate Orman book but it's still very strong, and the opening section on Ship is one of the best bits of Doctor Who ever.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 24, 2021, 12:15:14 PM
The Season 12 and 19 Blu-rays are being re-released in standard style packaging.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on March 24, 2021, 12:31:17 PM
"This is definitely the last time these will be released"

"Actually, now you've spent £100 for a second hand copy of the box version, you can buy a standard version!"


Hopefully this will mean the initial pre-orders will run out less ludicrously quickly, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: M-CORP on March 24, 2021, 02:38:16 PM
THIS IS SUCH A BRILLIANT IDEA.

So you can have the Season 12 Blu-ray, in packaging which is less nice than before, but I could live with it on my shelf. New plainer BBFC age certificates aside (change for change's sake, methinks).

Except on Amazon it's £38.

Isn't that similar to what the limited edition packaging originally cost when it was new?
Comparing it with season 24 on Amazon, there's only a difference of £8.

In general though, the retail prices of Doctor Who Blu-Rays - especially for the new series - have skyrocketed in the last few years. Series 8 is £15.99 on Blu-Ray, Series 11 has less episodes and features yet costs £30.

I dunno - I'd invest more in this physical media if it weren't so expensive (some say it's justified with the Collection of classic stories, but when most of the special features are ones that already exist on DVD, I'm not so sure).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on March 24, 2021, 03:45:36 PM
They're usually about £45 on Amazon pre-order, so it's a tad cheaper.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on March 24, 2021, 04:10:00 PM
It is roundabout the same price Key to Time was on DVD when it was released. Little bit more expensive than Trial of a Time Lord. Seems a fairly normal price for the rereleases to me.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 24, 2021, 04:31:38 PM
First Who DVD I bought was Spearhead From Space. It was £20 in Virgin. A couple of years later I was in Ireland and decided to pop in to Virgin there. 80 Euro for single story Classic Who DVDs! Jumped on Play.com and got them for about £7!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on March 24, 2021, 08:03:29 PM
"This is definitely the last time these will be released"

"Actually, now you've spent £100 for a second hand copy of the box version, you can buy a standard version!"


Hopefully this will mean the initial pre-orders will run out less ludicrously quickly, if nothing else.

I'm not surprised this is happening but I am maybe a bit surprised it's happening so soon.

Mind if you they wait till they've finished the whole collection then physical media really will be dead.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on March 24, 2021, 08:47:02 PM
In general though, the retail prices of Doctor Who Blu-Rays - especially for the new series - have skyrocketed in the last few years. Series 8 is £15.99 on Blu-Ray, Series 11 has less episodes and features yet costs £30.

I dunno if it’s the cost that’s gone up, more a case of older series being sold cheaper. I certainly paid more for Series 8 back in the day.

I haven’t bought any of the Chinball ones yet as they’ll drop in price in a few years. I was never not going to buy them (I own Time and the Rani and Timelash on DVD), but I can wait to hatewatch them again.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on March 24, 2021, 10:22:51 PM
I have Time and the Rani and Timelash on DVD too, along with all the classic era and the modern era series 1 - 11.  I bought series 11 compulsively, as a completist, followed by Revolution.

Then I saw series 12 and the compulsive completism is ended.  Waiting for the next showrunner to fix the Timeless Child garbage before I reengage with the modern era.  I haven’t watched the newest special at all.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on March 28, 2021, 09:00:51 PM
Loads of episodes of those Myth Makers interviews gone up on BritBox. They're under the name The Doctors.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on April 07, 2021, 11:10:14 AM
Targets now read:

The Massacre - all the story beats but ending feels incomplete. Literally no idea when its the Dr and when its not. Is that the point? ALSO anachronous timelords.
Didn't know if I'd covered Revelation but that's better than Resurrection.
Rose - absolute joy of a read. Lots of extra details.

Got Marco Polo on the go. It's OK.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on April 07, 2021, 11:22:41 AM
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I'm only on iPlayer etc for a short time.

Torchwood: Children of Earth - never watched that first time around. Can't quite work out what I was doing in July 2009.

While it is just Quatermass (1979) retooled for more modern times ...

  ...  just how did RTD get this on BBC1 for a week? Ending of Episode 4 is particularly brutal, while there's a whole plotline of stay-at-home messages, curfews and the Government using 'vaccinations' as their cover that is very on-the-nose in 2021.


Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on April 07, 2021, 11:39:15 AM
Target Dalek was great. He gets a bit bogged down in the side characters at the expense of the Doctor and Rose, but there's a chapter towards the end from the perspective of the Dalek (going right into what it's like to be born a Dalek and stuffed into a killing machine) which is brilliant.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on April 07, 2021, 11:48:45 AM
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I'm only on iPlayer etc for a short time.

Torchwood: Children of Earth - never watched that first time around. Can't quite work out what I was doing in July 2009.

While it is just Quatermass (1979) retooled for more modern times ...

  ...  just how did RTD get this on BBC1 for a week? Ending of Episode 4 is particularly brutal, while there's a whole plotline of stay-at-home messages, curfews and the Government using 'vaccinations' as their cover that is very on-the-nose in 2021.

Presumably the BBC saw it and just fell in love with it. Children of Earth was planned as the finale to a full 13 part series with Mickey and Martha’s love story and Jack’s secret family as the series arcs. But the BBC declined to commission a full series and Freema Agyeman was double booked, so RTD went back to the drawing board. As a last minute rewrite, it really is better than it has any right to be.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on April 07, 2021, 04:38:43 PM
It's so tonally different to any other Torchwood. Basically it's what 'adult Doctor Who' should have been, not endless sex gags. It's an utterly brilliant story, very brutal in places, and believable in terms of the government response. Definitely quite a brave thing for them to commission, and I'm really glad they did.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on April 07, 2021, 04:43:31 PM
For me it's 50% the thing everyone says it is (the darkest and most uncomfortable bit of British TV sci-fi since Nigel Kneale), and 50% Torchwood (fucking total shit). I wish it didn't have any of the Torchwood lot in it at all.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on April 07, 2021, 04:49:01 PM
It's fun to see Captain Jack die so many times.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on April 07, 2021, 05:02:09 PM
For me it's 50% the thing everyone says it is (the darkest and most uncomfortable bit of British TV sci-fi since Nigel Kneale), and 50% Torchwood (fucking total shit). I wish it didn't have any of the Torchwood lot in it at all.

Haha, I was considering giving it a rewatch until I got to this. I remember it being good, might just leave it at that.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on April 07, 2021, 05:26:49 PM
To be fair I'm in the minority for thinking that.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 07, 2021, 05:31:28 PM
It's so tonally different to any other Torchwood. Basically it's what 'adult Doctor Who' should have been, not endless sex gags. It's an utterly brilliant story, very brutal in places, and believable in terms of the government response. Definitely quite a brave thing for them to commission, and I'm really glad they did.

Agreed.  Also it makes 2009 less of a non-year for Doctor Who than normally accepted.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: TwinPeaks on April 08, 2021, 12:23:34 AM
Agreed.  Also it makes 2009 less of a non-year for Doctor Who than normally accepted.
It's mad to remember thinking four hour+ long specials (well, one was a day out of 2009), a whole series of Sarah Jane Adventures and an excellent miniseries of Torchwood was a non-year back then. That's Davies and Gardener for you, utterly mad how stressful that era was for them.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on April 08, 2021, 08:58:14 AM
It's mad to remember thinking four hour+ long specials (well, one was a day out of 2009), a whole series of Sarah Jane Adventures and an excellent miniseries of Torchwood was a non-year back then. That's Davies and Gardener for you, utterly mad how stressful that era was for them.

And The Eleventh Hour aired 3 months later. Nowadays that's at least a 15 month gap, no questions asked
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 08, 2021, 07:03:48 PM
Just a shame the 2009 specials were so nothingy.  I’d got it into my head that the Tenth Doctor’s hubris would be his undoing, but the sense of him having gone too far at the end of Waters of Mars didn’t lead into anything.  It would have made sense to puncture the Time Lord Victorious stuff before Moffat took over, as he only ever raised it in his tenure in a kind of self-aware parody form.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 08, 2021, 07:05:50 PM
I still haven’t watched all of Torchwood series 1, 2 and Miracle Day.  I’ve caught some episodes from series 1 and 2 and found them stupid, and watched a couple of episodes of Miracle Day and it didn’t grip me like Children of Earth.


Are there any standouts I really shouldn’t have missed?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on April 08, 2021, 07:12:08 PM
Nope.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on April 08, 2021, 07:32:16 PM
Targets now read:

The Massacre - all the story beats but ending feels incomplete. Literally no idea when its the Dr and when its not. Is that the point?

I believe (although I wouldn't call myself a huge expert) that that pretty much matches our knowledge of the TV version. Are there any bits where the Doctor sneakily disguises himself as the Abbot? Nobody knows!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on April 08, 2021, 07:41:05 PM
Sue Perryman from Wife in Space couldn’t tell any difference. Neil had to tell her when Hartnell wasn’t the Doctor. Or probably wasn’t...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 08, 2021, 07:57:19 PM
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QA9Y5rx-878/WVJzypL7KgI/AAAAAAAAHCs/cjjIP_v2TLgfyswFxyTwus_79Nmmai9fgCLcBGAs/s1600/Death%2B%2528Vicki%252C%2BBarbara%2Band%2BDr%2Brobot%2529.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on April 08, 2021, 08:15:28 PM
I still haven’t watched all of Torchwood series 1, 2 and Miracle Day.  I’ve caught some episodes from series 1 and 2 and found them stupid, and watched a couple of episodes of Miracle Day and it didn’t grip me like Children of Earth.


Are there any standouts I really shouldn’t have missed?

There is this brilliant one where it turns out humans are the bad guys ahhhh (by Chibnall so you know it is going to be great) and another with a lesbian making machine or something. Top quality stuff.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on April 08, 2021, 11:36:26 PM
It's worth noting that the main thrust of Miracle Day is excellent, and it has some bleak consequences in itself, but that aspect feels like far too much of a retread of Children of Earth, and the second half is a nice (admittedly somewhat daft) idea that's just not done very well. Were it another five part story it'd probably be pretty decent, but it's just a bloated mess in the end.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on April 09, 2021, 10:07:55 AM
Early on in Miracle Day, "its going to be some massive magic space clunge"

And it was.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on April 09, 2021, 10:18:44 AM
Torchwood episodes I can actually remember (but needed wikipedia to help me) -

Countrycide - ending a bit abrupt, but a solid creepy work
Small worlds - I remember liking this, good use of a common fairy tale
Out of Time - good time travel story
Sleeper - action one

There was one about a WW1 soldier that I remember being well put together.

For every one that's alright to good, there's two that are not.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on April 09, 2021, 11:26:02 AM
I'd recommend 'Captain Jack Harkness' from near the end of the first series, a decent and spooky episode with interesting flashbacks to Jack in WWII. That was the one that made me think "ah it's found it's footing" but then the finale was a mess and Series 2 was just as patchy and shambolic.

For every one that's alright to good, there's two that are not.

Spot on.

Interestingly, the Big Finish Torchwood releases are consistently strong. They strip back (oooh!) all of the juvenile sex stuff and instead focus on making creepy and great contemporary/ period dramas set at different instances in the Torchwood timeline. Their Series 5 continuation Aliens Among Us was great too. Recommended.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: notjosh on April 09, 2021, 11:34:27 AM
I remember the opening section of Sleeper being surprisingly emotionally affecting, but I can't remember if the rest of the episode was any good.

I quite liked Meat just because you don't get many TV shows about the cruelty of factory farming.

There must have been some other decent episodes in there cos I watched all the first 3 series and even had Tosh on my desktop wallpaper for a while.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 09, 2021, 11:59:02 AM
Gave up after Cyberwoman, like most right-minded people.

(actually think it might have been during Cyberwoman)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on April 09, 2021, 05:41:57 PM
One to avoid

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0R_UfSMbdYc/WYDa4odZiQI/AAAAAAAAVdM/LUFwo7WCXYoWatchYfeoWGcRRMmFeBobQCLcBGAs/s1600/cw1.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on April 09, 2021, 07:04:32 PM
Well, that's tonight's wank sorted!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on April 09, 2021, 07:12:10 PM
Terrible episode. Worth it for this cosplay though.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ff/d5/f0/ffd5f051cf8c2a6e74f9020475a6bcf3.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on April 10, 2021, 01:16:44 AM
Whatever you might say about Chibnall's time as showrunner, at least he hasn't gone with the "women = breasts and high heels" route that some feared he would.

But yes, fucking awful.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on April 10, 2021, 01:52:28 AM
I wonder if Jodie Whittaker has ever seen it?

I'm betting not.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 10, 2021, 05:22:58 PM
Whatever you might say about Chibnall's time as showrunner, at least he hasn't gone with the "women = breasts and high heels" route that some feared he would.

But yes, fucking awful.

I never assumed he would do this.  It was obvious he wouldn’t be able to write for women though. What’s a tad more surprising is that he treats men as equally alien.  It’s as if he has never properly listened to how real people speak or understands what motivates them.



I keep forgetting and remembering that we have Chris Chibnall as Doctor Who showrunner; fuck’s sake.  When will it be time for a new one again?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on April 10, 2021, 05:31:54 PM
Brothers!

Sisters!

"its going to be some massive magic space clunge"
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on April 10, 2021, 05:41:41 PM
Early on in Miracle Day, "its going to be some massive magic space clunge"

And it was.

Fucking hell. Just remembered when Jack had to bleed into the space clunge to save the day.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 10, 2021, 05:46:09 PM
I wonder if Jodie Whittaker has ever seen it?

I'm betting not.

I don’t think she even saw any Doctor Who.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 10, 2021, 05:47:31 PM
Fucking hell. Just remembered when Jack had to bleed into the space clunge to save the day.

To be fair, we’ve all done this.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on April 11, 2021, 01:26:19 PM
Doctor Who and the Goth Infinite Requiem by Daniel Blythe
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/1d/NA036_infiniterequiem.jpg)

Here's a book that could have been good. The opening section, set on contemporary Earth, based around an English Indian family torn apart by a daughter's abuse boyfriend, is gripping, with some wonderful characterisation of Nita and Tilusha. Sadly, about a third of the way through, the whole story is ditched in favour of another worn-torn future Earth colony populated by people with names like Livewire and Trinket, a soldier called Cheynor who is apparently from Blythe's previous novel (The Dimension Riders, memorable only for being a Shada ripoff) who is set up as a future Brig-like character (The Doctor even absent-mindedly calls him Brigadier at one point) but ends up dead, ending the potential for a likeable recurring guest, and a far-far-future race of empaths, who have potential but get little fleshing out. The enemies are fairly generic telepathic psychopaths after universal domination, called Sensopaths.
It's another one of those stories that feels inconsequential. The Doctor and Benny arrive, do a bit of investigating, there's an anticlimactic ending and it's done. For a story with cosmos-wide consequences, it all feels very slight. The Doctor is fine, Benny is good as usual. The last couple of chapters - the main plot ends 20 pages before the end - do some lovely character wrap-ups that flesh out most of the guests in a way the bulk of the tale doesn't allow. Ultimately, Blythe seems capable of writing compelling character-based material, but is totally unable to write an engaging plot to place the characters. A much smaller-scale story would have benefited the likes of Cheynor, Suzi and the Phractons, and potentially ended up as an excellent book, rather than simply another "some military people get caught up in a dull universe conquering plot" story, the likes of which seem to come along every other book at this point.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on April 11, 2021, 08:32:27 PM
In other news, every classic series doctor who serial described by Red Dwarf (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yVrA18ZCtk&ab_channel=greengrocerofdespair).
Underworld and Attack of the Cybermen are particularly good.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 11, 2021, 08:57:42 PM
Creature from the Pit was funny.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on April 12, 2021, 04:56:50 PM
In other news, every classic series doctor who serial described by Red Dwarf (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yVrA18ZCtk&ab_channel=greengrocerofdespair).
Underworld and Attack of the Cybermen are particularly good.

Brilliant. Clearly made by someone who has watched both shows a ridiculous amount of times. I thought Earthshock was really good too.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: TwinPeaks on April 12, 2021, 06:31:01 PM
Countrycide - ending a bit abrupt, but a solid creepy work
Small worlds - I remember liking this, good use of a common fairy tale
Out of Time - good time travel story
Seconding these (I don't really remember Sleeper) plus Captain Jack Harkness, Something Borrowed, and maybe Adrift. I was so blindsided by the final scene with Jack and the older man in Out of Time, I get teary eyed just thinking about it really.
I have a soft spot for the first two series. A lot of it's a bit shit but even in the worst moments of Chibnall's worst episode it's still more fun than his Doctor Who. Adrift is probably the only good thing he's ever written. The cast is really great obviously, it's no wonder the Big Finish stuff is so good. Really charming bizarre show.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 13, 2021, 11:16:15 AM
"An apple a day keeps the... no, never mind"

Peter Davison is 70 today.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on April 13, 2021, 11:20:25 AM
Jesus. Can’t think of him as an old man. Does he still have a young/old face?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 13, 2021, 11:21:33 AM
A pleasant open face, last time I looked
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on April 13, 2021, 11:37:53 AM
Who had the young/old face, was it Pertwee?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 13, 2021, 11:45:17 AM
Yeah, I think so.

Davison didn't get a single decent 'sums up the Doctor' quote in his three years, did he. People usually default to that awful one from Earthshock about a well-prepared meal. Had to Google to remind myself of the one from Castrovalva I've used above. The only other half-decent one is from Frontios:

"If anyone happens to ask whether I made any material difference to the welfare of this planet, you can tell them I came and went like a summer cloud..."
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on April 13, 2021, 12:11:33 PM
"There should have been another way."
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 13, 2021, 12:44:30 PM
Bit meta.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 13, 2021, 08:10:46 PM
It has always felt a bit bonkers to me that Peter Capaldi is younger than Peter Davison.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on April 14, 2021, 09:26:31 AM
Capaldi at the time Davison was Who:

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/6d6c9e701dd305a95822b32045a4d74d/tumblr_mtrh3qjnL11qmfr3fo2_250.gif)

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/7668b5c7159b59c7a6b53c3bff51b130/tumblr_mtrh3qjnL11qmfr3fo6_250.gif)



At least his run hasn't really changed.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/baBDADgF8Ly0g/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 14, 2021, 10:37:29 AM
Capaldi at the time Davison was Who:

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/6d6c9e701dd305a95822b32045a4d74d/tumblr_mtrh3qjnL11qmfr3fo2_250.gif)

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/7668b5c7159b59c7a6b53c3bff51b130/tumblr_mtrh3qjnL11qmfr3fo6_250.gif)

Looking a bit Hugh Grant.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 14, 2021, 02:05:59 PM
And well whaddaya know, Peter Capaldi turns 63 today.

23 when the Fifth Doctor was cast? Not too young. Would also have made an interesting alternative to McCoy.


Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on April 14, 2021, 04:59:26 PM
Speaking of McCoy, I really am finding the NAs a bit of a slog at this point. Halfway through Sanctuary at the moment, which is a well written historical (next to no SF in it at all so far), but it's been quite a while since I felt the spark of joy that the best Who has. With everything going on at the minute, I need to be reading something that's actually really pulling me in rather than reading something for the sake of plodding through a series, so I think after this one I'll take a break for a bit and read something else for a while. Still have a few Murakami novels to get through.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on April 14, 2021, 06:48:26 PM
The next one after this is Human Nature, so you might want hang on a little longer...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on April 14, 2021, 07:03:46 PM
The next one after this is Human Nature, so you might want hang on a little longer...

Seconded. You're about to hit the NA's motherlode - Human Nature, Original Sin, The Also People, SLEEPY, Just War...some of the best Doctor Who of all time. Hang in there!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on April 14, 2021, 07:57:45 PM
Ok, I'll see how the next few go then. I'll admit I'm curious about Human Nature, what with having seen the TV version.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on April 14, 2021, 08:37:40 PM
The audiobook version read by Lisa Bowerman (Benny) is superb.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on April 16, 2021, 01:53:14 PM
Storyboard animatics for The Evil of the Daleks have been found on YouTube (and quickly taken down) for an upcoming release. So that appears to confirm the earlier reports that The Evil of the Daleks and The Abominable Snowmen are next in line to be animated.

There would be just four stories of the Troughton era left to animate. Tantalisingly close to the entire era being "complete".
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on April 16, 2021, 02:41:41 PM
Missed them, but there's a few images on Josh Snares video about it > > >  here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPVF22bH70g)

(https://i.imgur.com/aQ0eZXC.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/jKwWzgb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VQ8ckiq.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/QUpZ4Uw.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on April 16, 2021, 04:15:24 PM
Missed them, but there's a few images on Josh Snares video about it > > >  here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPVF22bH70g)

(https://i.imgur.com/aQ0eZXC.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/jKwWzgb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VQ8ckiq.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/QUpZ4Uw.jpg)

I know it was made in black and white, but this looks ridiculous.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on April 16, 2021, 06:33:46 PM
Storyboard animatics for The Evil of the Daleks have been found on YouTube (and quickly taken down) for an upcoming release. So that appears to confirm the earlier reports that The Evil of the Daleks and The Abominable Snowmen are next in line to be animated.

There would be just four stories of the Troughton era left to animate. Tantalisingly close to the entire era being "complete".

And hopefully our first sixties blu ray set.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 16, 2021, 08:47:17 PM
Josh Snares has the most irritating voice ever
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on April 16, 2021, 10:21:45 PM
Hehe! I know what you mean - the vocal equivalent of a quizzically arched eyebrow (he is lovely, though!)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 16, 2021, 11:09:28 PM
You know Pamela Stephenson's impression of Esther Rantzen?  Josh Snares sounds like a flattened version of that.  When he's doing his scripts every single line has an unpleasant descending cadence.

It's a shame because some of the content (eg his missing episodes videos) would be very watchable apart from that.  He needs someone else to deliver his material.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on April 18, 2021, 03:40:21 PM
More animated fun :

DOCTOR WHO SERIES ONE BUT IT'S POORLY ANIMATED (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8RjQpbEJNw)

[Simon Bates NSFW warning : contains loads of sexual swearwords]
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 18, 2021, 04:11:33 PM
Absolutely exquisite.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: M-CORP on April 18, 2021, 10:15:32 PM
Tonight I saw Nathan Barley and Limmy's Homemade Show. They were decent[1], but they didn't make me laugh until I ached, at least not in the way that a self-professed 'poorly animated' video on YouTube has.

Does it say something about society if YouTube is funnier than mainstream television, as I have found on multiple occasions? I hope it doesn't, because if it did, that comment would simply be, 'Oh, bugger.'
 1. For those who care - i.e. three of you - Nathan Barley is a great character study because everyone's so morally grey, and the world-building is excellent. Limmy's Homemade Show deserves credit for how professionally it's put together and how unique it is, but I personally found there to be too much repetition. They're great shows, aside from the fact I simply wasn't laughing as often.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 18, 2021, 10:54:00 PM
I did lose it at "New penis"
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on April 18, 2021, 11:25:34 PM
There's possibly a divide between the types of humour that end up on television these days[1] and end up on the internet. There's generally less telly that's based around being as ludicrously daft as possible as often as possible than there is stuff online trying to do that. So for those of us who've grown up with Python, the Comic Strip and their own shows, Chris Morris, Father Ted, Peter Serafinowicz, whatever it may be, the kind of humour we're after definitely seems to be more internet based these days. There's probably an interesting discussion as to why, although it's probably not best suited to Old Doctor Who - Part 4.
 1. Nathan Barley is 16 years old and that's kind of terrifying
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 19, 2021, 10:05:37 AM
I thought it was shrieking garbage.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on April 19, 2021, 01:36:28 PM
Ten years to the day that Elisabeth Sladen died. Where has the time gone.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on April 19, 2021, 03:50:18 PM
I realised myself a few weeks ago that that was coming up, and had huge difficulty processing it.  Doesn't seem possible.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on April 19, 2021, 06:40:55 PM
Eccleston answering a few questions for Big Finish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhMJOGG_1fw
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 28, 2021, 11:49:52 AM
Just noticed that Myra Frances, Lady Adrasta in The Creature From The Pit, passed away on 30th March this year.

The Guardian obit has this fantastic picture of her from the ITV series Hadleigh (1976) looking the absolute epitome of mid-70's chic:


(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f8ea7c1f62ace28fafddfa23b4fced11e3da5a28/0_100_3600_2159/master/3600.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=272a30625c98da82f68073f027e7699f)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 28, 2021, 01:11:46 PM
I’d let her pebble my mill!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on April 28, 2021, 01:14:28 PM
She looks like the woman out of Blakes 7

With maybe a bit of Stephanie Beacham thrown in
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on April 28, 2021, 01:33:00 PM
I’d let her beecham my powders!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on April 28, 2021, 02:14:51 PM
Something something my creature in her pit something
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on April 28, 2021, 02:19:59 PM
I’d thrash about in her wolfweeds
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on April 28, 2021, 03:55:12 PM
I'd let her ITV series my Hadleigh (1976).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on April 28, 2021, 10:01:20 PM
They all come back in the end : Dodo and Company (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y38jukWr1ZQ)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on May 01, 2021, 11:57:18 PM
Doctor Who and the Lack of Obvious Amusing Title Based On the Cover Image Sanctuary by David A. McIntee.
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/3/3d/NA37_sanctuary.jpg)

David McIntee likes historical stories. He likes to get in deep with richness and detail, researching the era of the tale and filling his books with the results of this research. This reaches a peak with Sanctuary, which is a pure historical. The first written since Black Orchid, and the first I've read since... hmm, a Fourth Doctor one which had some brief sci-fi to try and make it not a pure historical, despite it definitely being one. Asylum, maybe?

The issue I have with McIntee's historical stories, and I acknowledge that this is as much a problem with me as it is the books, is that they require you to absolutely 'get' the era. I know next to nothing about the crusades, and so huge swathes of this book were completely lost on me. While the '60s TV historicals were intended to be educational, McIntee's books throw you in at the deep end and expect you to play catch-up. I could definitely do some research before reading, but that's really not what I fancy doing when ploughing through a series of pulpy TV tie-in sci-fi novels. It doesn't have to be this way. I've read historical novels before that are expertly written and allow you to pick up everything you need to know about the era without spelling it out. It's one thing I enjoy about Hilary Mantel's books: after reading A Place of Greater Safety, I went online to research the French Revolution, because it was so absorbing and I wanted to know more. I hadn't the faintest idea about it beforehand.

So yes, it's a richly textured book, with a huge number of characters, numerous subplots involving the politics and religious turmoil of the time, plenty of era-specific details that are undoubtedly spot on. It's also a staggeringly boring book. This is especially down to The Doctor's plot, which involves him doing a Hartnell by finding his way into a safe position and being generally unable to do anything to save anyone. It's like The Aztecs, in that regard, only written without any sense of fun or wonder. Benny is given more to do, and saves the story. Her gradually developing romance with Guy is believable, and by far the best written part of the book. She's warm and very funny, and manages to keep her own plot moving forward quite well. The unexpected coda is a bit of a gut punch, and delivers something genuinely memorable, which is hard to say about the rest of the book. Benny's managed to get through the NAs without too much emotional damage so far, so this was definitely something new. Will be interested to see if it picks up with the next novel.

That 300 page book took me three weeks to trudge through. I'm hoping the next few live up to their reputation and help me re-engage with the series, because it's definitely reached "this isn't especially fun" stage now.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on May 02, 2021, 01:50:44 AM
I think the next one's Human Nature? That should be refreshing.

Last pure historical I read was the original-crew PDA "The Witch Hunters" by Steve Lyons. That was bloody good, basically The Crucible with the Doctor, Ian, Barbara and Susan chucked in. I've been pining for pure historicals since DW came back; they don't have to be dull, the Fires of Pompeii was pretty good until the crap monsters showed up.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on May 02, 2021, 11:10:39 AM
The Witch Hunters was pretty good, yeah. The Plotters and The Roundheads were my two favourites.

Started Human Nature last night and it's definitely a breath of fresh air. Just immediately much more energetic and exciting to read.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on May 02, 2021, 03:07:18 PM
Just War is a pure historical and that one's quite good.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on May 02, 2021, 03:10:47 PM
Where do I put my thoughts on rewatching old new Who from the start?

I've just spotted Perry Benson in the Eleventh Hour. That's made my Sunday.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on May 02, 2021, 08:47:56 PM
Where do I put my thoughts on rewatching old new Who from the start?

Some kind of register, at this rate
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on May 02, 2021, 09:04:47 PM
Where do I put my thoughts on rewatching old new Who from the start?

I've just spotted Perry Benson in the Eleventh Hour. That's made my Sunday.

That’s amazing that, you wouldn’t have thought an LA defence attorney would even fit in the storyline
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on May 03, 2021, 03:13:28 AM
Where do I put my thoughts on rewatching old new Who from the start?

I do think we need an "Old New Doctor Who" thread, as I've said before.  Maybe I should just make one.  Failing that, I'd prefer the current New Who thread to this one... but that's just me.


Some kind of register, at this rate

That's going in the Guffaw thread! :-D
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on May 03, 2021, 06:26:22 AM
Failing that, I'd prefer the current New Who thread to this one... but that's just me.

New Who threads are labelled after the most current series and I don’t think a committed rewatch of any previous series would suit them.

A dedicated thread called something like ‘Doctor Who:  a 2005-2017 rewatch’ would be best.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on May 03, 2021, 09:12:13 AM
Here you go :

Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,86814.0.html)

(https://i.imgur.com/QAAiMKX.jpg)

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on May 03, 2021, 06:35:38 PM
Excellent, thank you daf!

Only problem I have now is where to put the damn thing next time I post the big thread list!  Might make a new category to cover the handful of other new-Who rewatch threads there have been (like madhair's and Fry's).

Actually, I suppose I should post the revised list in that thread, shouldn't I?  No time now, bother.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on May 07, 2021, 01:10:58 PM
The Mirror seem to think Galaxy 4 is getting the animation treatment. Apparently the journalist who reported it has been reliable with Who need in the past.

Odd choice given some of the Troughton stories still available to be animated. But I guess if they wanted to test the waters with a Hartnell, Galaxy 4 is the most straightforward.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on May 07, 2021, 02:20:49 PM
Yes that is a strange one.  But I suppose if they want to tackle season 3 they need to start somewhere, and where better than the first story?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on May 07, 2021, 04:07:39 PM
They’ve decided that they are animating the easiest episodes first. A lot of the historicals are harder to animate due to all the different costumes apparently.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on May 07, 2021, 05:45:48 PM
But a lot of them aren't shit like Galaxy 4.



(https://i.gifer.com/fetch/w300-preview/60/60650c313bb9a384e4a6e17dfef66f66.gif)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on May 07, 2021, 08:24:35 PM
Season 24 box and Galaxy 4? They really are spoiling us this year.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on May 07, 2021, 09:26:48 PM
(https://i.gifer.com/fetch/w300-preview/60/60650c313bb9a384e4a6e17dfef66f66.gif)

Oohh I didn't know the first Doctor ever got fossilised in Pompeii.  Which episode was it in?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Roofdog on May 08, 2021, 11:26:59 AM
When is that S24 box dropping? I have an Amazon preorder but still no date on it. Any word on the next one? Reckon we're probably due another Davison
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jenna appleseed on May 13, 2021, 04:26:57 AM
(https://i.gifer.com/fetch/w300-preview/60/60650c313bb9a384e4a6e17dfef66f66.gif)

Hartnell does a poo.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on May 16, 2021, 01:01:53 AM
Doctor Who and One That Looks a Lot Like That David Tennant One Human Nature by Paul Cornell
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/a/a3/NA38_humannature.jpg)

I don't really know how to review this one, because I couldn't help but read it from the perspective of having seen the TV version. So I suppose I'll mostly compare it to that. Actually, I was amazed at how different the two are. The main beats of the story are the same - the Doctor as human, the boarding school on the eve of WWI, the family seeking him, most of the characters - but loads of it is different. Benny and The Doctor barely interact for the first half of the book; The Doctor has become human as a kind of holiday; the Family have slightly different intentions, and are generally a lot funnier than on TV; prominent roles are given to a suffragette, a gay museum owner, and a Labour politician, as well as a bunch of soldiers acting as UNIT (specifically like those in The Daemons); a nuclear bomb turns the school to glass; most of the family - here referred to as Aubertides - end up dead. There are numerous other subtle differences: names, jobs, etc. There are no scarecrows.
On the whole, I think the book is definitely the better version of the story. The nuke kind of undermines the unexpected horrors of WWI, but otherwise everything is given more room to breathe, the characters mostly feel more rounded, and ultimately, Tennant's Doctor is the most human-like of all his incarnations, meaning the difference between him and John Smith is nothing compared to McCoy's distant, alien portrayal - especially at this stage in the New Adventures. After all The Doctor's been through in the last few books, Smith's discoveries and decisions take on a lot more weight. 10 cried all the bloody time, but having 7 cry feels more dramatic. Plus, at this point, Benny is a far better companion than Martha.
I can completely understand why it was so well received on publication. It's a type of Who story that had never been told before, and yet managed to be so without gratuitous body horror or mind-bending nonsense. I wish I'd been able to read it without any expectations.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on May 17, 2021, 02:17:41 PM
When is that S24 box dropping? I have an Amazon preorder but still no date on it. Any word on the next one? Reckon we're probably due another Davison

June 21st.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on May 17, 2021, 03:27:07 PM
The next set is rumoured to be Season 20 as Davison and co recorded some stuff at a convention for it but that might be delayed until they can finish that feature.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on May 17, 2021, 04:14:49 PM
https://youtube.com/watch?v=mTFFl9VndC8

Trailer for S24.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on May 17, 2021, 05:38:08 PM
Nice. Appropriately self-deprecating. The slip into the out-take is sublime.


The next set is rumoured to be Season 20 as Davison and co recorded some stuff at a convention for it but that might be delayed until they can finish that feature.

I've not been keeping track of these. Will S20 include The Five Doctors?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on May 17, 2021, 06:33:33 PM

I've not been keeping track of these. Will S20 include The Five Doctors?

It is considered part of Season 20, so it will be included.

Likewise The Twin Dilemma with Season 21 and The Savages/The Tenth Planet with Season 4. No story will be moved.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on May 17, 2021, 09:01:48 PM
Ooh, I hope one of the extras is a long documentary exploring the background of The Ergon.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on May 18, 2021, 12:43:21 AM
https://youtube.com/watch?v=mTFFl9VndC8

Trailer for S24.

Looks as embarrassingly cringeworthy as I remember. So brash and gaudy.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on May 18, 2021, 10:08:40 AM
I guess The Five Doctors would have to feature heavily in a season 20 trailer. Can't think of much else that would provide a compelling hook. 'At Home with Kari and Olvir'?

There could be a hilarious bit where they play fetch with the Garm.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on May 18, 2021, 01:21:08 PM
I just watched the Raston Warrior Robot vs Cybermen scene from The Five Doctors. When I was a kid, I thought that scene was cool as fuck.

And it still is! (https://youtu.be/dI3BIrpxu5k) I always wanted more of that robot.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on May 18, 2021, 01:31:16 PM
Brendon School reunion? Tegan's cousin having flashbacks during Sunday lunch?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on May 18, 2021, 01:32:00 PM
I guess The Five Doctors would have to feature heavily in a season 20 trailer. Can't think of much else that would provide a compelling hook. 'At Home with Kari and Olvir'?

Maybe they can get Clunes to dress up again? He's the federator in his own right now, presenting a promotional Manussa Tourism promotional video or some such?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on May 18, 2021, 01:47:31 PM
Looks as embarrassingly cringeworthy as I remember. So brash and gaudy.

Now that (https://youtube.com/watch?v=mTFFl9VndC8) definitely looks like it was aimed squarely at the kids (and little kids at that) - makes Chibnall's stuff look like Berlin Alexanderplatz!

That said, I ordered it the instant it was available! :)

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on May 18, 2021, 03:15:44 PM
Brendon School reunion? Tegan's cousin having flashbacks during Sunday lunch?

Maybe they can get Clunes to dress up again? He's the federator in his own right now, presenting a promotional Manussa Tourism promotional video or some such?

A spoof episode of Naked Attraction featuring the Ergon, Martin Clunes, Ibbotson, the Garm, Leee John and Kamelion
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on May 18, 2021, 03:17:43 PM
Really, they just need to do a huge dramatic build-up to "No! Not the mind probe!" followed by looks of embarrassed silence.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on May 18, 2021, 03:21:40 PM
A spoof episode of Naked Attraction featuring the Ergon, Martin Clunes, Ibbotson, the Garm, Leee John and Kamelion

Hosted by Captain Jack!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on May 18, 2021, 05:11:25 PM
Roy Scammell has died. He did stunt and acting work on Doctor Who as well as many other things including Bond and Alien.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on May 18, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Looks as embarrassingly cringeworthy as I remember. So brash and gaudy.

Blanket white studio lighting made everything look so cheap.  I wonder if any fans have tried re-grading JNT's Who as an experiment.  I suspect there's only so much you can do, though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on June 03, 2021, 02:37:50 PM
Sad news just in from a good friend on Facebook of the passing of Damaris Hayman - at the admittedly good age of 91. Miss Olive Hawthorne in 'The Daemons', appeared in The Young Ones and Filthy Rich & Catflap, and a pretty fascinating acting career behind her.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 03, 2021, 02:47:46 PM
Avaunt, all ye elementals
Avaunt, all ye powers of adversity
Be still, and return to thy resting
Be at peace in thy sleeping
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 04, 2021, 02:19:47 PM
Doctor Who and the Shoulder Pads Original Sin by Andy Lane
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/f/f3/NA039_originalsin.jpg)

That, there, is The Doctor being arrested by Chris Cwej and Roz Forrester, his new companions. I enjoyed them a lot, and kind of wish I hadn't known they would be companions going forward, as the final chapter would have been a nice surprise. They're a fairly standard pair of police officers Adjudicators from 30th century Earth, Chris a naive newbie whose idealism helps him see things the more cynical veteran Roz manages to miss. Almost Holmes-esque in dynamic, they provided a lot of humour and fun throughout this book, and I'm looking forward to more adventures with them in the future.

A few pages into Original Sin I was ready to chalk it up as another dystopian future story that I would find mildly diverting but ultimately too bleak, military-oriented and Sawardian to get any real joy from. Thankfully, this couldn't have been further from the truth. Yes, it's dystopian: Earth, at the peak of its empire, is obnoxiously racist and xenophobic, considering all alien life to be scum, especially those whose planets have been absorbed into the Empire and have been forced to relocate to Earth and work cleaning toilets or busking; the media is pushing constant jingoism into homes; corporations are overwhelmingly powerful. Yes, there's a police and military presence throughout, not only through Cwej and Forrester, but the presence of Provost-Major Beltempest, a largely horrible character who reluctantly helps our heroes, despite seeming to hold up his racism to the end. But the story itself has a constant spring in its step: the aforementioned Holmes-esque new companions, The Doctor's wonderful style of playing off everybody who comes up against him - he's in cheeky grin and glint in his eye mode here, thankfully, falling somewhere between Tom and Pat - Benny being warm and funny as usual, and just the general pace of the writing, which balances action, back story, plot, character, humour and exposition brilliantly. Ok, there's way too much fanwank - more than a dozen past stories are briefly referenced, and just as many stories we've never seen and races we've never heard of - but the writing is always light and fun, and it never feels like a chore to trudge through, unlike a number of recent books.

The guest characters are fairly well drawn: the Hith are a nicely realised alien species, with unique characteristics and some genuinely sympathetic individuals, Beltempest is well-rounded enough to be worth coming along for the ride, especially his and The Doctor's uncomfortable relationship; only Zebulon Pryce - a Hannibal Lector type who turns up to give some exposition on icaron radiation and throw about some half-hearted philosophy - feels underwritten. The Doctor and Benny are on fine form, with little trace of angst, working well together for the first half of the book, and separate later on. There are numerous villains in the story, although it ultimately turns out that the man pulling all the strings is none other than Tobias Vaughan. I'm not quite sure what I make of this: he's not the sort of character I can imagine coming back, but he's handled pretty well.

The book ends with the start of the collapse of the Earth Empire, which is nice.

So yeah, enjoyed that a lot.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on June 05, 2021, 12:49:41 AM
I think that Beltempest is a lot more grey-shaded than 'largely horrible' would indicate, but I agree with you otherwise. This is a damn fine mystery/adventure, and I enjoyed the hell out of it when I read it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on June 06, 2021, 01:42:44 AM
I enjoyed them a lot, and kind of wish I hadn't known they would be companions going forward, as the final chapter would have been a nice surprise.

samesies
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 06, 2021, 09:53:10 AM
I think that Beltempest is a lot more grey-shaded than 'largely horrible' would indicate, but I agree with you otherwise.
Yes, possibly. I think I just struggled to get past the clear xenophobia.

Two chapters into Sky Pirates! and I have no idea what the hell is going on.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on June 06, 2021, 12:21:27 PM
I recall from reading it many years ago that Sky Pirates! picks up once the actual plot emerges a few chapters in but yes, the opening is utterly bewildering at first

I hate to bang out some old cliché along the lines of "It's like Discworld...on acid!!!" but that is pretty much what it feels like. A Pratchett-esque comical fantasy universe pushed to utterly demented extremes.

I don't think Dave Stone ever quite hit that peak of insanity again, sadly much of his subsequent work has felt like diminishing returns from what I've seen. It doesn't help that he has used variations of the Sloths multiple times which doesn't help the feeling of being a bit of a one trick pony.

There's also an odd and depressing sequel to it set in the Bernice Summerfield spin-off series, "Oblivion", but I wouldn't recommend looking it up yet as it has a couple of massive spoilers for upcoming NAs.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 06, 2021, 01:56:58 PM
Just had a page which references both 'Time Wars' and a 'reality bomb'. It's just a shame RTD didn't go the whole hog and include Altairian XIV Bogwoppets (https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Altairian_XIV_Bogwoppet) into his series.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on June 10, 2021, 11:05:30 PM
The Season 24 set's been delayed by another week, just had an email from Amazon.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 11, 2021, 09:00:53 AM
The Season 24 set's been delayed by another week, just had an email from Amazon.

Well at least soon they will have something to film season 24 on.  Better late than never.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on June 14, 2021, 04:28:51 PM
Good news: The Web of Fear Blu-ray is out on 16 August.
Bad news: The animation is absolute shit. https://youtu.be/RoCSHEI3Nmw
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Giggling Bean on June 14, 2021, 04:59:43 PM
Good news: The Web of Fear Blu-ray is out on 16 August.
Bad news: The animation is absolute shit. https://youtu.be/RoCSHEI3Nmw

Quoted for truth. I honestly can't believe anyone thought that animation was passable, it looks like an early 2000s cut scene from the PS2. I always double dip on the DVD and Steelbook to support the animations but I'm only getting the Steelbook this time round and only for OCD completist reasons...in no way is this an endorsement of that terrible animation.

I know we can pick faults in the previous 2D stuff but at least it was consistent. I had hoped that it was just the trailer they'd done in this style, really disappointed to see just how bad its going to look as a full episode. This will be the exception where the recon remains the default episode 3 for me.

I'm genuinely hoping that this is a one off. I'm a big advocate for animating the missing episodes but I'm not on board at all with this style.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on June 14, 2021, 05:03:54 PM
Speaking of animations, I picked it up the Power of the Daleks special edition - I hadn't been planning on buying it but it was a few pounds off. Not bad so far, looks a bit better than I remember the old one (although I'm too lazy to do an actual comparison).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 14, 2021, 05:04:44 PM
Loved this comment under that video : "You've had this animated haven't you? Don't like it"

Was this made with some sort of motion capture technology? I'm picturing Toby Hadoke capering about in one of Andy Serkis' old green-spot leotards!

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on June 14, 2021, 05:46:56 PM
And Nicholas Briggs doing the same. But respectfully.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 14, 2021, 05:50:18 PM
By the looks of it they just drew Victoria's face on a balloon and wagged that about a bit - job done!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on June 14, 2021, 05:55:58 PM
It isn't ideal but it'll do the job. On the bright side, it seems they have a new telenap recon too.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 14, 2021, 06:04:51 PM
telenap

Are they doing The Web Planet?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: olliebean on June 14, 2021, 06:08:05 PM
Interesting choice to rotoscope Thunderbirds puppets.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 14, 2021, 06:29:59 PM
Good God.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 14, 2021, 06:33:48 PM
All the animated recons are rubbish. Genuinely don't think this is any worse, just different.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on June 14, 2021, 06:41:47 PM
Best by far was Cosgrove Hall’s The Invasion. Genuinely striking and stylish I thought.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on June 14, 2021, 06:45:57 PM
I thought The Moonbase was the best one.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Giggling Bean on June 14, 2021, 07:14:06 PM
In fairness to them the budgets aren't great and I think they've done great work on Macra, Faceless and Fury (a few dodgy bits here and there). The thing is the 2D characters move in the style of 2D characters. There's an uncanny valley quality to this animation...not suggesting it's anywhere near decent enough to mistake it for human. In fact Daf got it spot on when he wrote...

"By the looks of it they just drew Victoria's face on a balloon and wagged that about a bit - job done!"

There's certain shots that do look like faces on balloons. The limbs also have a wierd floating balloon quality to them.

It's annoying that they've chosen to change animation styles on this when, by and large, the existing 2D style was well received for the others. It's a pisser as well as, unless the ep turns up, this crap will be the only official visual representation of Web 3.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 14, 2021, 07:57:27 PM
Yeah, the 2D ones are a little bit Web Flash Animation in places, but they're very simple and do the job well. This looks like it's trying too hard and ending up looking weirdly out of date in the process.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 14, 2021, 08:02:14 PM
Coincidentally I watched the first three episodes of the Reign Of Terror for the first time ever the other night. Absolutely fantastic (or should that be fantastique?), can't believe it's taken me so long to get round to them. Read through the transcripts of episodes four and five (http://www.chakoteya.net/DoctorWho/1-8.htm) today (did I mention how much I dislike animated recons?) and all ready to watch the final instalment tonight. Then, the only extant episodes of classic era Who I haven't seen will be Planet Of Giants.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on June 14, 2021, 08:33:16 PM
Macra, Faceless Ones and Fury were all great. The only issue I had with them was the arms for Fury which looked like monkey arms but after a few minutes I got used to it.

Reign was the only really awful one. They had somebody involved with it on the Missing Episodes podcast (would highly recommend it) and the brief from high up was bafflingly to make it more modern with the shots and editing. Hopefully on the Season 1 set they can make some sort of recon to replace the animation but no telesnaps makes that difficult.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: The Giggling Bean on June 14, 2021, 09:18:49 PM
I've not watched Reign for ages. I remember people really hating the animation on that but I don't remember much about it. I don't think it bothered me so much at the time...probably because I was so excited they were starting up the animation again.

There were elements, like arm length, which were frustrating when you noticed them...but easy to overlook after a while. This animation looks so ugly and the characters are all out of proportion. Troughtons neck is a bit longer than it should be...something that really bugged me on the trailer animation too. The Yetis look to thin on that clip as well.

I'm hoping that any further BBC America funded animation will stick to the established 2D format of the previous stories. It's actually a real shame they aren't still produced to the quality of Tenth Planet and Moonbase.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 14, 2021, 09:37:11 PM
Interesting choice to rotoscope Thunderbirds puppets.

Thunderbird puppets with at least one of their head strings snapped so that they are constantly lurching to the side.


Exceedingly disconcerting effort.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 22, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
How is he getting them so early, the jammy dodger!!

Jason Arnopp's Season 24 Unboxing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f5MR8E_Ds8)

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on June 23, 2021, 06:57:21 PM
Jackie Lane, who played Dodo during the Hartnell era, has passed away at the age of 79.

You probably all know this, but after leaving Doctor Who she became a theatrical agent; her clients included Tom Baker, Janet Fielding and Nicholas Courtney.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on June 23, 2021, 07:25:31 PM
Jackie Lane, who played Dodo during the Hartnell era, has passed away at the age of 79.

You probably all know this, but after leaving Doctor Who she became a theatrical agent; her clients included Tom Baker, Janet Fielding and Nicholas Courtney.

I didn't know that. Love a bit of trivia.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Camp Tramp on June 25, 2021, 08:42:33 AM
Tony Selby, who played Sabalom Glitz has not died at all. Ignore.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 25, 2021, 08:59:44 AM
I didn't know that. Love a bit of trivia

Got told by the BBC high-ups to tone down her natural Mancunian accent that she used in her first couple of stories. That was back in the days not all planets had a north.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 25, 2021, 11:40:48 AM
Not a trace left in their accents, but Tom Baker and Elisabeth Sladen were both from Liverpool (not sure why Tom lost his scouse twang - I don't think he went through the acting school RP meat grinder!)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Blofelds Cat on June 25, 2021, 01:27:46 PM
Remember being at a convention and Tom gave a burst of his original accent---a hard Lancashire twang that most people from Liverpool no longer speak with---modern day Scouse accent is awful and sets my teeth on edge.

Doubt Lis Sladen had much to start with---was from upper middle class stock and went to school with Edwina Currie.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on June 25, 2021, 01:57:26 PM
Having said that, I think you can hear it occasionally - like in The Time Warror - when she comes out with a scouse "Gerroff!" after getting manhandled in Iorngron's castle.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on June 25, 2021, 02:39:01 PM
Having said that, I think you can hear it occasionally - like in The Time Warror - when she comes out with a scouse "Gerroff!" after getting manhandled in Iorngron's castle.

I've never heard it called that before!!

Sorry.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on June 28, 2021, 01:06:54 PM
Series 24 has arrived. Not the best series (to say the least) but one I've not rewatched for a while. Also the extras look great as always.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4982AcXwAY40MM?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on June 28, 2021, 02:22:11 PM
Mine just arrived too. Will watch Time and the Rani extended tonight.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 28, 2021, 02:31:54 PM
Mine's gone straight on the shelf for the inevitable "right, I suppose I'll have to watch it some point" moment of desperation.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 28, 2021, 02:44:11 PM
This is reading like the Desolation thread in H.S. Art
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on June 28, 2021, 03:27:22 PM
This is reading like the Desolation thread in H.S. Art

Think you meant to post that in the thread for people watching Chibnall Dr Who.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 28, 2021, 03:43:41 PM
Oh yeah that's non-stop deso, obv
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 28, 2021, 04:40:24 PM
My favourite Doctor Who what-if is what if Time and the Rani had featured Colin Baker as planned.


He often tells it as “being asked to come back for a regeneration scene” but it wasn’t that.  Time and the Rani would have been his final story, and he would have sacrificed himself at the end instead of that random other character doing it.  We would have been spared the worst parts of Sylvester McCoy’s post-regenerative nonsense in this story (although - granted - it would probably have just been shunted into the next story instead), and the regeneration scene itself would have actually felt like a plausible sequence within the official canon.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on June 28, 2021, 05:34:22 PM
McCoy doesn't particularly suffer any significant post regenerative issues. The Rani drugs him causing his bumbling about. Why they didn't just re-write it so that his behaviour was post regenerative weirdness rather than being drugged, I don't know.

As I understand it, Colin always said he would only come back for the full season but the most they would allow was the one story. Thank Christ his last story wasn't bumbling around being drugged by the Rani.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 28, 2021, 05:37:31 PM
"Originally, the Doctor stayed behind at the Rani's headquarters to ensure that the missile strike failed, and the ensuing explosion caused him to regenerate"

Once they'd found all the bits..?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on June 28, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
Series 24 has arrived. Not the best series (to say the least) but one I've not rewatched for a while. Also the extras look great as always.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4982AcXwAY40MM?format=jpg&name=large)

What’s Sylv got in his hand? Salad tongs?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 28, 2021, 06:29:59 PM
Spoons!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 28, 2021, 06:30:48 PM
You'll never guess what he does with them
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 28, 2021, 06:30:59 PM
McCoy doesn't particularly suffer any significant post regenerative issues. The Rani drugs him causing his bumbling about. Why they didn't just re-write it so that his behaviour was post regenerative weirdness rather than being drugged, I don't know.

As I understand it, Colin always said he would only come back for the full season but the most they would allow was the one story. Thank Christ his last story wasn't bumbling around being drugged by the Rani.

I don’t know whether the drugged elements would have been such a part of the story if it had been Colin Baker leading it.  Maybe I’m wrong but they always felt to me like a way of working with the Doctor not being sure who he is because he is a new incarnation.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on June 28, 2021, 06:31:56 PM
Unless you guess 'plays them on Kate O'Mara's tits'
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 28, 2021, 06:34:21 PM
Unless you guess 'plays them on Kate O'Mara's tits'

The Rani’s chest if you please
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on June 28, 2021, 06:37:33 PM
The Chest of the Rani.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on June 28, 2021, 06:40:24 PM
Zactly
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on June 28, 2021, 07:08:35 PM
Spoons!

Space spoons.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on June 29, 2021, 12:51:03 AM
Spoons!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BYTBhOGUzNjItNmQ3ZS00OTg0LTkyMmQtYzA4YjczNDRkYjBmXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMzQ2OTM5OA@@._V1_UY180_CR27,0,180,180_AL_.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on June 29, 2021, 03:45:42 PM
A look at the timings for the extras finds that the new S24 Blu-ray includes around 25 hours of rushes.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 30, 2021, 04:31:37 PM
Just having a peek through some of the past box sets I've not fully explored yet, and I noticed the Season 26 discs have 'Isolated Music Soundtrack' features. On the Battlefield page it's listed as 'Listen to Keff McCulloch's incidental music' while, a couple of pages later, Ghost Light has 'listen to the superb incidental music score'. This can't have been accidental.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on June 30, 2021, 04:32:58 PM
Just having a peek through some of the past box sets I've not fully explored yet, and I noticed the Season 26 discs have 'Isolated Music Soundtrack' features. On the Battlefield page it's listed as 'Listen to Keff McCulloch's incidental music' while, a couple of pages later, Ghost Light has 'listen to the superb incidental music score'. This can't have been accidental.

Is a bit passive aggresive there.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on June 30, 2021, 05:46:16 PM
The Behind the Sofa for Earthshock is listed as, simply, "Excellent."
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on July 01, 2021, 04:16:59 PM
Evil of the Daleks animation (https://www.doctorwho.tv/news/?article=missing-adventure-the-evil-of-the-daleks-animated&fbclid=IwAR2CZdQtJHcISiHlkCOieSTjT_6rTmqHFM6LvNNGuhOKGFt7EVHkexwNTUI#_) announce for September 27th. Better looking animation than Web of Fear.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 01, 2021, 04:35:27 PM
Space Pirates looks on unhappily.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on July 01, 2021, 05:25:51 PM
I think that leaves just the Smugglers and the Highlanders to have a 'complete' series.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on July 01, 2021, 05:42:28 PM
Looks a really good release. They even have the budget this time for a new restoration of the existing episode.

I think that leaves just the Smugglers and the Highlanders to have a 'complete' series.

Underwater Menace too.

Abominable Snowmen likely on the way too. It was leaked at the same time as Evil was a few months back and there has been some filming at the location it was filmed at this week. After that it is just 4 Troughton animations left.

I believe Galaxy 4 was leaked by the person as Evil/Abominable so it seems a good chance that is on the way.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on July 05, 2021, 03:08:30 PM
Galaxy 4 listed on the website of one of the teams involved with Fury and Web so that is definitely on the way.

One of the people involved in the Shada and Power animations has recently said that in his view under the current animation model, there are only four stories that aren't logistically possible. Master Plan (due to length), The Highlanders (due to complexity), Marco Polo (both) and didn't specify the other but can be assumed to be either The Crusades or The Massacre.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on July 05, 2021, 03:54:38 PM
Ooh, is that right? - I thought The Myth Makers was also on the impossible to do list.

I'd love to see that one (even if they have to felt-tip Vicki's face on a motion-capture balloon to do it!)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 05, 2021, 04:22:29 PM
Galaxy 4 listed on the website of one of the teams involved with Fury and Web so that is definitely on the way.

One of the people involved in the Shada and Power animations has recently said that in his view under the current animation model, there are only four stories that aren't logistically possible. Master Plan (due to length), The Highlanders (due to complexity), Marco Polo (both) and didn't specify the other but can be assumed to be either The Crusades or The Massacre.

I wonder if they will eventually tackle them somehow.  It’d be a shame if they were permanently left as gaps.

Maybe they could get different studios involved to handle different batches of episodes within a single serial.  I’d find the patchwork outcome quite pleasing, I think.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on July 05, 2021, 04:32:54 PM
Can't they just make them with most of the shots close up facials? Not an impossibilty surely. After the audio cuts and the photoplay versions, anything remotely animated will be appreciated.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on July 05, 2021, 05:17:55 PM
Master Plan could always be split up and given two separate titles like the novelisation. Episodes 1 to 7 work on their own and 8 to 12 would just need a quick recap at the start.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on July 05, 2021, 05:34:54 PM
Can't they just make them with most of the shots close up facials? Not an impossibilty surely. After the audio cuts and the photoplay versions, anything remotely animated will be appreciated.

The facial animations are pretty crude and limited, I couldn't imagine sitting through a whole 25 minutes of that.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on July 05, 2021, 08:46:19 PM
Ian Levine probably has a version of Master Plan. They could just release that.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on July 05, 2021, 09:31:17 PM
Ian Levine probably has a version of Master Plan. They could just release that.

He definitely commissioned an animation of Mission To The Unknown, because someone leaked it and stuck it on YouTube and I downloaded it before it disappeared. It's good, too.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on July 05, 2021, 09:45:53 PM
The problem with the historical is apparently how difficult they are to animate due to the amount of different costumes. I’m looking forward to Evil. Wish Cosgrove Hall were still doing them though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 06, 2021, 07:23:12 AM
He definitely commissioned an animation of Mission To The Unknown, because someone leaked it and stuck it on YouTube and I downloaded it before it disappeared. It's good, too.

I thought it was dreadful.  You can see that a lot of work has gone into it though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on July 06, 2021, 07:28:43 AM
I thought it was dreadful.  You can see that a lot of work has gone into it though.

This reminds me of my favourite insult, Philip Larkin on Miles Davis: “Some of it must have been quite hard to do.”
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 08, 2021, 09:53:09 AM
Doctor Who and the Looney Tunes Sky Pirates! by Dave Stone
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/8/81/NA040_skypirates.jpg)
I don't know how to review this. Partially because it's so long and impenetrable and took me weeks to finish that I can't remember half of what happened in it. So here are a bunch of quotations from the book to give you an idea of what it's like.
"Then she turned to the Sloathe in the form of a hovcar-sized, soft-shelled tortoise on a pogo stick."

"By a small quirk of System force-evolution, mice were two-foot-long feral predators with razor-sharp claws and a bite that shut down in shock. Cats, on the other hand, were timid, neurotic sacks of suet with chronically weak hearts and a predilection for quiet and darkened rooms."

"The weapon reminded her of a miniature version of the ejectors used to deposit canisters full of exo-enhanced TerraFed stormtroopers during the Dead Geek Wars - a particularly insane and viscous period of Earth history, under the New Old New Old Good Old New Old Little Old Islam-Christian Fundamentalist Republican Right Party premier 'Resurrection Bob' McGobglurk, and his lovely wife Yoko, when the combined might of the Terran empire had, simply, attempted to stomp every other sentient life-form in the galaxy into their respective grounds."

"Thus spake Jastracoasto the Nabob, whereupon those assembled did make such great Excoriations as, "Give over!" and, "Pull the other one, Fuzzy, for it does have Bells attached withal!"

"It was pure coincidence that as one approach the Reklonian orbit, from a certain angle, it looked exactly like a huge, plump and fatuously jolly snowman, with a pipe. With a mauve hat on."

"Well, I just really want to say," The Doctor said in a smooth and manly baritone, his words somehow fitting perfectly into the music of the aural hallucination, "that as I wend my weary way / through space and time, / worlds thick with slime / where monsters win the day, / there's a little piece of sound advice / that helps me on my way..."

"'Is blue down there and blue up here. Very interesting phenomenomenom.' It force-evolved a little vetigal ear. 'Is talk to me. Mutter-mutter, it go. Mutter-mutter-mutter-mutter-mutter.'
'Is going mutter-mutter,' Skleki Yamo informed Slempi Ko.
Slempi Ko rippled. 'What things it go mutter-mutter?' it said at last.
'It go grumble-grumble, moan-moan, grrr!' said Plog."

"I mean, vampire chickens? Back-stabbing money-grubbing jackals? Marcel the marmoset and his magic patisserie? Give me a break. There are limits."

"A gruff and portly badger with gout and a forage cap on, making quite sure he stayed safely behind in his little iron and wicker bathchair, organised an advance by mixed rabbit and stoat light-irregulars in a pincer movement. Things were looking dicey for Roslyn Forrester - but then Cwej and Sgloomi Po turned up and together they were able to beat their way from the chamber and out into the twisty, turny tunnels of the Snata's lair where, after a number of false starts, apocryphal stops, wrong turnings, right angles, getting themselves completely lost, arguing about who it was that had gotten them completely lost, finding themselves again by sorting out their chakras and getting in touch with their inner children and, finally, making their way through the stables, where the Snata's mutilated deerlike creatures dangled from slings over grease-monkey pits (filled to brimming with genuine Reklonian monkey-grease) to emerge, spluttering, from the side of a snowbank."

"In the sense of a metasystemic "observer" that validates the transition between quantum states - the ear that hears the tree fall in the forest, as it were. It's been variously described as universal consciousness or even God, but it is in fact a Mr J. P. Critchlowe of 57 Leafy Bowers, Tring."

"'That's all, folks.'
-Porky Pig"

"Enfant terrible, bon vivant, archaeologist, pharmacologist, behavioural psychologist and best-selling novelist, these are just some of the words Benny Summerfield knows how to spell the best two tries out of three and it is a little-known fact that, every time she steps out through the TARDIS door, she steps out clutching a hefty typescript and looking for a nearby, unwary and subsequently extremely unlucky publisher."

"But now, for the first time, the PractiBrantic Press offers you the golden opportunity to own the pristine Collected Benny Summerfield for yourself! Fifty-seven volumes bound in genuine hand-tooled human-skin leather, actually cloned and force-gestated by herself and from her very own DNA!"

"The plot involves a sexually ambivalent half-human, half-piglet superhuman who doesn't like hitting people, travelling across the USA with a group of animal-liberation terrorists with clocks instead of faces, the ghost of John F. Kennedy, the Lord God Almighty, his nice young friend and a brain-fried New Age hippie in a psychedelic, motorised, soft-top convertible Irish pub, interminably trying to make sense of his/her life in the sort of crystalline and pause-laden prose that would have Samuel Beckett on Mogodons reaching for a shotgun."

The actual story is very good, but my God is it hard to actually make out beneath all the noise.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on July 08, 2021, 10:19:44 AM
Sounds a bit like a book by Tom Holt I once got out of the library. I had to abandon it after a few chapters of relentless sub-Pratchett whimsy - life's too short!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 08, 2021, 10:46:27 AM
I like Holt's sci-fi novels, but his more fantasy-leaning stuff is really, really tiresome.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on July 08, 2021, 05:43:13 PM
Sounds a bit like a book by Tom Holt I once got out of the library. I had to abandon it after a few chapters of relentless sub-Pratchett whimsy - life's too short!

I read a ton of those sub-Pratchett novels when I was a teenager, the worst were the ones by Andrew Harmon which were all based around dreadful puns and were literally just Discworld with the names filed off.

Sky Pirates! is better than the majority of those by virtue of it's sheer imaginative scope, although it is a tad overwritten as the quotes demonstrate. However I'd much rather have something like that than trudge through a hundred bloody Bulis books

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 08, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
A child in one of the classes I work in was today reading a small Doctor Who book with the Matt Smith / Peter Capaldi logo on it.  He said it was a Time Lord Fairy Tale book (apparently there are loads of them) and he said his favourite Doctor was Matt Smith.


It was Sports Day today, and the kids got stickers for each race.  The kid who liked Doctor Who ended the day with a sticker for 3rd place and two stickers for 4th place.  So they said “3rd”, “4th” and “4th” on them.  I said that’s one Jon Pertwee and two Tom Bakers!  Stupid little cunt didn’t know what I was talking about.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on July 08, 2021, 06:23:59 PM
It was Sports Day today, and the kids got stickers for each race.  The kid who liked Doctor Who ended the day with a sticker for 3rd place and two stickers for 4th place.  So they said “3rd”, “4th” and “4th” on them.  I said that’s one Jon Pertwee and two Tom Bakers!  Stupid little cunt didn’t know what I was talking about.

Brilliant.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 11, 2021, 12:04:49 PM
Doctor Who and the Teeny Terrapins Zamper by Gareth Roberts
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/18/NA41_zamper.jpg)

Ah, Gareth Roberts. Bit of a marmite writer when it comes to Doctor Who. I actually really like his novels. Shame he turned out to be such a prick. Anyway, after the headfuck that was Sky Pirates!, I really needed a book like this. It's light, breezy, fairly amusing, and I managed to get through most of the book yesterday afternoon.
The Doctor, Benny, Roz and Chris land on a test flight designed to crash on battleship-making planet that's tucked away in a pocket universe (come to think of it, that's very Douglas Adams, isn't it?), and end up trying to find out the mystery behind the planet's natural fauna - the large, slug-like Zamps - and their connection to the failing AI in charge of the whole operation. The planet's only other inhabitants are its administrator and her meek, nervous aide, a portly, slightly sleazy host and a meek, nervous hostess, and a pair of Chelonians who are there to purchase a battleship. Roberts loves his Chelonians, and while they're actually a fairly bland race, the two main characters here are well drawn and believable, moreso than Roz and Chris, really, who are largely left to wander around a little bit and add almost nothing to the plot other than Chris fancying the meek hostess.
There are no major surprises - the meek hostess turns out to be a pirate there to steal secrets, the bumbling aide gets screwed over and dies, the Zamps are the Management and are trying to take over the universe, the Chelonians sacrifice their lives for the greater good - but it's just a romp that bounces along at such a speed that it's all a lot of fun. Roberts's love of the Williams/Adams era of the show makes this feel slightly out of place among the NAs - only he and Gatiss seem to have bothered to go with 'trad' stories at this point in the series - and while it's certainly not up there with his brilliant Fourth Doctor & Romana trilogy, it was exactly what I needed after the past few complex and/or bleak NAs.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on July 11, 2021, 12:12:14 PM
Roberts was apparently not minded to, you know, do the job he'd been commissioned for and write Chris and Roz properly - instead he wrote them as Dayna and Tarrant from Blake's 7 and just did a search and replace on the manuscript before turning it in. Pathetic, really.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 12, 2021, 09:48:25 AM
Haha. I suppose it would be difficult incorporating characters that you don't really know into your stories.

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/2/26/NA42_toysoldiers.jpg)
Toy Soldiers by Paul Leonard

aka "What would The War Games be like if it was written as a NA?" Quite a startlingly bleak book, in which children of various races are taken to a planet to fight each other in a war that's lasted 1,400 years. We get to see the loss of the children as experienced by their families, and the really unpleasant lives of the children themselves, whose earlier memories have been wiped. Benny gets captured and sent to fight, while The Doctor is forced to work on the memory wipes. Again, Chris and Roz have comparatively little to do, with a whole side plot that involves investigating a family of some missing children which could easily have been removed from the book with no massive impact to the plot, although is nicely done and adds some pathos to the story. Much like Benny's first few books, there's clearly some difficulty at this point in knowing just who these characters are and how they can be used.
The war planet scenes are quite visceral and memorable. The whole game, it turns out, has been set up by a race trying to wipe out another, and created a computer to run these war simulations in the hope that one side would develop a war-winning super-weapon. It's an intriguing idea, and as The Doctor points out, not one that could work with the participants' personalities and memories removed. The computer - The Recruiter, as it is known - is portrayed as more intelligent and perceptive than your usual mad computer character, as it acknowledges the pointlessness of its actions - the two races involved in the war had made peace centuries ago - yet is unable to stop because of its programming.
The Doctor is a minor character here, but the three companions lead things admirably, especially Benny who takes centre stage and is the moral heart of the story, experiencing the horrors of the planet first-hand. The Doctor himself, although a bit of the arch-manipulator, is portrayed as a positive, optimistic character rather than a cunning schemer. Roz and Chris are fine, aforementioned issues not withstanding.
Despite the book's bleakness, Paul Leonard's prose, along with the comparatively brief length, make it a swift read, and the vividly drawn world and core mystery turn it into a page-turner with some excellent concepts at its heart. I really, really enjoyed this one.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on July 13, 2021, 09:51:10 AM
Yes, whatever reasons one may have to dislike Roberts' output (then or now) on its own merits, the NAs schedule meant that he likely hadn't read a single page of Cwej and Roz at the time he was writing Zamper - not that he refused to take their extensive and deep character development into account.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on July 13, 2021, 01:08:28 PM
Yes, whatever reasons one may have to dislike Roberts' output (then or now) on its own merits, the NAs schedule meant that he likely hadn't read a single page of Cwej and Roz at the time he was writing Zamper - not that he refused to take their extensive and deep character development into account.

Yeah, but they would have both have had character biographies available. Also, he worked for Virgin on the side reading submissions - if anyone would have had access to early drafts of other novels, it's him. He just couldn't be bothered.

I used to really like his writing, and loved his witty and thoughtful interviews in DWM. Doesn't count for much now I know he's a fucking cunt.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 14, 2021, 11:49:56 AM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/1c/NA43_headgames.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Revenge of the Shit Companion Head Games by Steve Lyons

An unexpected sequel to Conundrum, only this time the Land of Fiction is bleeding into our reality. Jason is back (I had to double check it was the same guy so er, yay) and he's brought to life an evil Doctor doppelgänger called Dr. Who. They go around getting involved in stories inspired by the old TV Comics strips (apparently), before Dr. Who decides that The Doctor is evil and he and Jason go to round up all of the Seventh Doctor's past companions. Meanwhile, Benny is a superhero chasing a supervillain called The Quiz, and Chris is being chased by giant insects. The Doctor has to travel to Sheffield to save the Queen, only the train gets delayed (even future meddling couldn't change the timetables suitably, apparently). I thought it would be a largely comic novel, but after the first third things get a lot darker. It's ultimately a book about The Doctor's morality, whether he's right to use companions as chess pieces and so on. It's an approach that has, in the past, walked a fine line between self-indulgent tedium and inspired brilliance, and thankfully here it falls on the latter side. The five companions are all given distinct responses to the situation: Mel is disgusted by how much The Doctor has changed; Ace is just Ace, more at peace but still up for a fight; Benny is The Doctor's confidant, trusting him yet knowing he's playing bigger games; Roz trusts him implicitly as a leader; Chris's naivety leads him to side with Dr. Who right up to the end. The Doctor has a subconscious argument with his Sixth incarnation that probably falls on the self-indulgent side, but generally the theme is handled with maturity and pathos.
What stops it being an exceptional novel is the b-plot. Although it feeds into the main story at times, the Detrios plot is staggeringly boring. Yes, it highlights the damage caused by Jason, and it gives Chris a legitimate reason to question The Doctor, and it feeds directly into the moral ambiguity of the tale, but we really don't need a third of the book set aside to a tedious rebels-overrun-the-corrupt-system type story. Given the meta themes of the book, I wouldn't be surprised if it was written intentionally so, as a comment on some of the less exciting classic stories, but it's still just exceptionally dull and knocks a point off my final score.
So yes, an interesting, funny, emotionally and intellectually engaging novel, but slightly flawed.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on July 14, 2021, 12:04:36 PM
Sylv’s head, the console and Mel all look fairly normal, but his body looks like I drew it
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 14, 2021, 12:41:59 PM
Pretty good hit rate for a NA cover, to be fair.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on July 14, 2021, 12:51:08 PM
Four in one week! They've been on a bit of tear, as have you.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 14, 2021, 12:56:07 PM
Yeah, the middle run of them was such a slog that it really just put me off a bit, coupled with some mental health stuff. Been enjoying just spending an afternoon getting lost in these though, with a few favourite albums on in the background.

Only 17 NAs, a PDA and a Telos novella to go for McCoy now.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alternative Carpark on July 14, 2021, 01:19:46 PM
Something that's never been clear to me about the Head Games cover - is it meant to be the Doctor or Dr Who depicted on it?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 14, 2021, 01:26:18 PM
Sylv’s head, the console and Mel all look fairly normal, but his body looks like I drew it

WHY MUST YOU ALWAYS ADD CLOTHES
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 14, 2021, 01:27:38 PM
They should make books where after a while the word “new” comes off because it is NOW 0% TRUE and it teaches kids that LYING IS OK
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 14, 2021, 01:54:28 PM
Something that's never been clear to me about the Head Games cover - is it meant to be the Doctor or Dr Who depicted on it?
Dr Who - a couple of characters notice how awful his question mark jumper is. For whatever reason, The Doctor reverts to his cream suit for the NAs.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 14, 2021, 09:34:11 PM
It strikes me as really odd that the Doctor's clothes would need to be reiterated in print.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 14, 2021, 11:50:56 PM
Usually from the perspective of a character who hasn't met him before and their first impressions of him, to be fair.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 16, 2021, 03:11:31 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/2/28/NA44_thealsopeople.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Magic Armchair The Also People by Ben Aaronovitch

Well, that was different. Aaronovitch is clearly a Hard SF fan as he opens the book by informing us that it's set inside a Dyson Sphere. Without actually explaining what a Dyson Sphere is. It's a ball shaped vacuum cleaner, clearly. And the rest of the novel is spent exploring the Worldsphere and its multi-trillion population, consisting of highly advanced vaguely human-ish biological lifeforms, sentient drones and spaceships, and the non-sentient machines that do all the work. It's portrayed as a paradise: no money, no work, no crime, everything run by a thoroughly benevolent super-computer called God. And yet, it turns out life within Worldsphere is so technologically and intellectually advanced that even the Time Lords have bargained a non-aggression treaty with them. Shortly after the TARDIS arrives, a murder occurs - something unheard of in paradise. And Kadiatu is also present, and has turned feral. Is the shit about to hit the fan, the seeming paradise about to reveal its corrupt underbelly?
No. Most of the book really is spent exploring, both Worldsphere and the characters. We get more thoughts from the Doctor's perspective than just about all the previous NAs put together - his moral quandary about what to do about Kadiatu, his desire for his life to be simplier - and Benny is portrayed as well as ever. Roz gets her first major character development, as we find out a lot about her past, her drives and emotions. The Doctor also entrusts her with the bulk of the murder mystery plot, and she performs admirably. Chris spends most of the book shagging his new girlfriend and flying a biplane. We encounter talking houses, sentient fish, chatty tree-designing parachutes, gossiping spaceships and killer windmills, as well as a huge celebratory pie in the shape of a huge pie, and descriptions of someone having the heart of a concrete elephant (it's clear what series Aaronovitch was rewatching while writing the book).
It's a gentle, relaxed, thoughtful and all-round pleasant book, and a much needed break after some bleak books and headfuckingly weird books. In the end, I felt both the Kadiatu and murder mystery plots were resolved too vaguely - a couple more paragraphs dedicated to each would have been much appreciated, rather than leaving it to our imaginations - but on the whole, a very enjoyable read and an appreciated change of pace.

Next time on Doctor Who... The Revenge of Terrance Dicks.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on July 16, 2021, 03:28:24 PM
That’s the one that owes more than a nod to Iain M. Banks’ Culture novels, isn’t it?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on July 16, 2021, 03:36:23 PM
Yes, it's the Culture with the serial numbers filed off, but I don't begrudge it that - the Culture is a worthy addition to the Doctor Who universe.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on July 16, 2021, 03:56:10 PM
Aaronovitch acknowledges this at the start with a note that "while talent borrows and genius steals, New Adventures authors get it off the back of a lorry, no questions asked".

This might be my favourite Doctor Who story of alll time.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 17, 2021, 03:26:03 PM
I'll probably have to read some of Banks's novels at some point.

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/8/84/NA045_shakedown.jpg)
Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure With a Sontaran Shakedown by Terrance Dicks

Shakedown was one of those direct-to-video Who-related stories from the '90s that looks like it was probably made on a budget of 76p from the screenshots I've seen. The script was written by Terrance Dicks, who turns in a novelisation here. Only the actual novelisation takes up about 40 pages in the middle of the book, with the rest of it being an original story (a prequel and sequel, according to the foreword). Which isn't surprising given that the plot of the film is some Sontarans board a space yacht to capture a stowaway Rutan, the humans onboard fight back and everyone except the two leads dies.
The rest of the story is much better - Roz and Chris are on a sleazy planet, on a bar crawl in search of the disguised Rutan, while Benny is being attacked on a university planet as she researches the place's history in the Sontaran and Rutan war. The Doctor meets Kurt, one of the video characters, and helps free him from Sontaran capture. The closing section ties everything together, with all characters coming together on a temple and unveiling the big mystery of what the Rutan's secret is (it's a wormhole).
I'd like to talk about characterisation and themes and imagery but, well, it's Uncle Terry, and the book is written with little more depth than one of his '80s Targets. He throws in a lot of enjoyable humour, and - as with his other original novels - seems to enjoy writing about the darker aspects of the story, but pretty much everything is kept on surface level, which is particularly jarring after the intensely character-focused previous book. Still, with Dicks's simplistic, breezy style, a fast-paced story, and the shortest page count of any NA to date, I got through the whole thing in around three hours, so it's hard to complain. It's a fun enough book, but unlikely to be one I ever revisit.

Next time on Doctor Who... The Seventh Doctor meets Nazis again.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on July 17, 2021, 07:09:23 PM
Hoo boy! Just War up next? I recall that one being a belter!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 18, 2021, 06:42:27 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/4/49/NA46_justwar.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Bloody Nazis Again Just War by Lance Parkin

This is, I think, the fourth time McCoy's Doctor has met Nazis. It's a very, very different story to the previous examples, however. For a start, despite there being a time travel plot involved, the actual sci-fi elements of the book are limited to a couple of pages. Otherwise, it's a war thriller with the threat coming from a new German weapon that's merely a couple of decades ahead of its time. Chris gets the most action, on a one man mission to occupied France. Doesn't get a shag, but a girl still falls for him. Roz gets the bulk of the character work, and her chapters are probably the strongest, with her working for the Scientific Intelligence Division of the UK military, and between her investigations, falling in love with her co-worker and getting engaged. She's a well drawn, three dimensional character by this point, and Parkin doesn't shy away from drawing some parallels between her own 30th century Earth racism (speciesism?) and the views of the Nazis. Benny gets put through the ringer, spending a long time being tortured in a Nazi jail. This was the book's weak point, as it was unnecessarily harsh, especially as she inexplicably retains her sanity as soon as she escapes. It's brutal - and in an uncompromising story about war atrocities, that's to be expected - but doesn't add anything to the narrative. The Doctor is travelling around Europe and briefly pretending to work with the Nazis to find out about the weapon. He's portrayed very well, with a harsh streak but a lot of compassion. The Nazis are portrayed as villains, but believable ones, not just spouting hatred, but having well-considered philosophies behind their beliefs.
Ultimately, it's a book about the war, and how it affected people on all sides. The reveal that it was a careless conversation between The Doctor, Mel and a German engineer a few years previously that led to the new weapon's invention is wonderfully understated in that it in no way cheapens the realism of the setting and the struggle millions went through during the war. It isn't a perfect book - the ending wraps up the main elements a bit too neatly and quickly, while leaving a few questions completely unanswered - but it's definitely one of the strongest NAs so far.

Next time on Doctor Who... Andrew Cartmel's War Trilogy Concludes or I Was Having Such a Good Time Until Now.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on July 18, 2021, 07:27:25 PM
The Big Finish version of this is excellent, but probably very different to the book - as they didn't have the rights to use the Doctor at this point, so Benny's carrying most of his stuff (I'm guessing), while her boyfriend, Jason Kane, gets the Chris and Roz bits.

There's also some stuff with 'time rings' (as they don't have the TARDIS) that probably doesn't feature in the novel (I seem to remember Jason got sent to the wrong time period by accident, and is on Guernsey for a few years waiting for Benny to turn up).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 18, 2021, 08:55:35 PM
That I shall get to at some point next year, probably. I'm very curious about these Benny re-written audios.

Just realised it's the fifth time 7's met the Nazis in my chronology, as they're in the PDA Illegal Alien.

And also spotted that I've now been doing this for over five years. Even taking into account a couple of six month breaks, I'm surprised at my own stamina.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 20, 2021, 03:13:40 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/15/NA047_warchild.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Raging Nationalists Warchild by Andrew Cartmel

It continues to baffle me that the classic era's final script editor, and the man who tried to push a return to making the character of the Doctor more interesting, had very little interest in including that same character in his books. To be fair, Warchild features considerably more Doctor action than the first two parts of his War trilogy, but he's still a fairly minor player, having next to no part at all in one of the two largely unconnected plots in this novel. While the first two books were loosely linked by the presence of a couple of characters, Warchild is very much a sequel to Warlock, featuring most of that book's main characters, tying up its plot strands, and even featuring its titular drug. This did involve a quick recap for me as it was quite a few books ago now. There are two stories here: Attack of the Killer Dogs in London, and Angsty Psychic Kid in small town America. The dogs plot is a fun runaround, Roz and a couple of other characters sneaking around a council estate at night trying to escape / kill a huge organised pack of dogs set on murdering people. The Doctor and Benny spend most of the book restoring a guy from long-term stasis. Former character Creed is inexplicably brought in from America to do next-to-nothing. Meanwhile, his family and spy agency are involved in the other plot, about his son who has some psychic powers. It's possible that this plot will return at some point in a future novel - I notice this is the first in the so-called Psi Powers Cycle - but on its own, it was unsatisfying and borderline pointless.
Although, on the whole, more readable and fun than the previous two volumes - next-to-no cyberpunk grimness here at all - it's still a very unpleasant book because of how utterly misogynistic it is. While this is at least partially because of the numerous unpleasant male characters, it also just reflects horribly on Cartmel. Male characters are given brief descriptions - usually ones where any physical aspects match their personalities - while every single female character is leered over on every possible occasion. I lost count of the amount of times female characters were described in terms of their legs, or breasts, or soft skin, or lips. Except the secretary, who was repeatedly described as being fat. And Roz, who one character thought was a "dyke". Which was then repeated numerous times.
Other than the dyke remarks, Roz was the only character given anything to work with, being the main player in the dog plot. Benny and The Doctor's brief appearances were fine. Chris's role was miniscule, posing as a Buddhist monk in three chapters.

So yes, the killer dogs plot had potential for a fun classic-style story, but the rest of the book was unpleasant enough to remove any real enjoyment from it. Thankfully that was my last Cartmel novel!

Next time on Doctor Who... I see if I can get to grips with why Kate Orman is such a loved writer within Who fandom.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on July 20, 2021, 05:40:43 PM
Thought this might be of interest. The BBC archive twitter posted a video from Take Two where kids talk about TV. There's some chat about Doctor Who at the start, it's during the Peter Davison era.

https://twitter.com/BBCArchive/status/1417446691360313344 (https://twitter.com/BBCArchive/status/1417446691360313344)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 21, 2021, 02:58:06 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/e/ee/NA048_sleepy.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Invasion of the Staggeringly Uncomfortable Beds SLEEPY by Kate Orman

Well that was very nice. It starts as if it's going to be one of those really fucking confusing books, but turns out to be far less fractured than Orman's previous two. Indeed, it's a fairly straight-forward colonists vs. corporations + something weird already on the planet type story. The colonists have been inoculated, only to find out the vaccines also contained a virus to trigger latent psychic abilities (clearly a foreshadowing of Covid!!!!!), and this has led to significant tension within the group. Once representatives of The Company arrive, things get bad very quickly, and the Doctor sends Benny and Roz to the past to investigate the origins of the whole affair: a grumpy computer called GRUMPY. Their arrival causes a bootstrap paradox, setting up the entire situation. Turns out GRUMPY is now called SLEEPY and has been shot down over the planet, and wants to be freed.
It's a very neat story which threatens to be more complex than it is. In a nice about-turn from the previous novel, the colonists include a number of very strong female characters. Orman's writing is excellent, driving the story on at quite a pace while managing to throw in enough pathos, humour and descriptive language along the way to lift it above some of the more lightweight novels. It's the Doctor who's given most of the torture this time, being on the receiving end of several psychic attacks. The colonists are all very well rounded, if not afforded the kind of in-depth exploration that some of the very best guest characters get. Chris, Roz and Benny are all their fine selves, no dramatic revelations (although a nice reminder that Benny's middle name is Surprise), but working really well as a team by this point. Benny tells an excellent Sontaran light bulb joke, and there's a mention of a Fred Nurk, which I'm hoping is a Goon Show reference.
The end makes it very clear that these psychic powers will be returning. Which I knew, because of the whole psi powers cycle. Still, good to see it being slightly serialised.

Next time on Doctor Who... another Dave Stone, already? See you in a year, then.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 23, 2021, 10:57:57 AM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/10/NA049_deathanddiplomacy.jpg)
Death and Diplomacy by Dave Stone

Well, I really enjoyed that. Dave Stone gives up the Pratchett-inspired wackiness and turns his attentions to a more Adamsian sci-fi epic. Thankfully he manages to get Adams's balance of bizarre ideas and serious plotting right, meaning the book isn't drowning in nonsense. Indeed, the humour is largely window dressing that helps undermine any potential pomposity, and, thankfully, is generally very funny. There are maybe a few too many sex jokes in the first half (the second chapter starts with Chris and Roz appearing, naked, in a wardrobe, and when Roz thinks she's grabbed the door-knob... well, you can guess).
The story involves three races, in control of a particular cluster, and at war with each other, being summoned to a peace conference, adjudicated by the Doctor. Chris and Roz find themselves mixed up in a military mission to storm the peace conference, while Benny is deposited on a dump of a planet and bands together with a bit of a dick called Jason Kane, who she subsequently falls in love with. The 'main' plot - the peace conference being a setup by some cute, cuddly yet very evil creatures disguising themselves as a mythical race called Plobs - is a lot of fun, but essentially the b-plot, as the book is really a romantic comedy about Benny and Jason. And it's a very nice one, too, with enough pathos mixed in with the humour to make it all believable. Given their engagement at the end, and the title of the next book, I'd imagine we're about to part company with Professer Summerfield, and it's nice that her departure has had an entire book leading up to it rather than just being an afterthought.
All in all, an excellent book. The series is really on fine form at the moment.

Next time on Doctor Who... the 50th NA!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on July 23, 2021, 02:35:58 PM
Happy Endings! I have fond memories of that one, I hope you like it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on July 23, 2021, 06:52:45 PM
Happy Endings! I have largely sour memories of that one. Looking forward to seeing what you make of it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 24, 2021, 01:43:00 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/c/c9/NA50_happyendings.jpg)
Doctor Who and the New Cover Design Happy Endings by Paul Cornell

When did Virgin know that they'd lost the Doctor Who license? Because this feels like a really strange time to change the cover design, 11 books before the end of the series. This novel was published four days after the McGann movie!
Anyway, that was a lot of silly fun. The plot is literally The Master tries to ruin Benny and Jason's wedding day. Much like The Also People, the threat element runs secondary to the character stuff, and it's mostly just a big sendoff for Benny, as well as a reunion for a few favourite characters from earlier in the NA series, mostly welcome ones. It's all very lovely for the first three-quarters, and then comes 'Everyone's Welcome at the Wedding', the chapter written by every former NA writer (except Jim Mortimer, probably because he would have tried to kill everyone) which goes on forever and basically exists to introduce a character from almost every single NA. It's tiresome and kills the book's momentum dead.
Otherwise, it's all happy endings indeed, though: The Brig, on the verge of death, manages to regain his youth; Ace finally reunites with her mum; Chris has sex again, and inadvertently becomes the grandad of Time, Death and Pain (??); Romana is President of Gallifrey and pushing the Time Lords to be less isolationist; Benny is happily married to Jason; The Doctor even gets his original TARDIS back! Lots of fun. It's obviously completely self-indulgent and full of unnecessary references, but as a big 50th book blow-out I don't mind.

edit: a few words about Benny. Despite some pretty bad opening stories, by writers who had no idea what to do with her, and even had to cram her into their existing stories, the 40-ish books with her in have really made her one of my favourite companions. Since her characterisation settled down, she's become a reliable source of humour and confidence, even in the terrible books. I'd say she could even be up there in my top five companions. So I'm quite sad to have her go.

Next time on Doctor Who... fanwank returns.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on July 24, 2021, 04:09:13 PM
They also released the cover artwork as a poster :

(https://i.imgur.com/4wuWxTv.jpg)

I like how the Doctor's on there twice - not sure if it's a time travel gag and there's two of him (one seemingly played by Roy Hudd!), or he's just bombed round the back - like sometimes happened with those long school photos where the camera had to pan across.

(https://i.imgur.com/Pgs4yQh.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 24, 2021, 05:45:11 PM
I believe it's one of his (three) clones from the story.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on July 24, 2021, 05:56:43 PM
Is there a syndrome you can get as an artist where you can draw a head and you can draw a body but you can’t make the two things match for love nor money?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 24, 2021, 06:59:25 PM
I just realised I forgot to mention, Death and Diplomacy canonised the Alien franchise in the Whoniverse, with a Xenomorph playing cards.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on July 24, 2021, 07:00:00 PM
Well phrased, pigamus! Yeah, when I first saw the cover of Happy Endings in miniature I thought 'nice nostalgic idea - hail, hail, the gang's all here'. Then I saw it larger, and more detailed.

Dear oh dear oh dear.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on July 24, 2021, 08:07:29 PM
Still above average when compared with the NA covers.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 24, 2021, 08:20:04 PM
They also released the cover artwork as a poster :

(https://i.imgur.com/4wuWxTv.jpg)

I like how the Doctor's on there twice - not sure if it's a time travel gag and there's two of him (one seemingly played by Roy Hudd!), or he's just bombed round the back - like sometimes happened with those long school photos where the camera had to pan across.

(https://i.imgur.com/Pgs4yQh.jpg)

Normally when they had a lone Silurian or Ice Warrior standing around for a celebration it was because they’d raided the old Doctor Who costume cupboard and just used whatever wasn’t too mouldy or bashed up.

I find it quite odd that they took the same approach even for a painting.  In a good way though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 24, 2021, 08:23:34 PM
Is there a syndrome you can get as an artist where you can draw a head and you can draw a body but you can’t make the two things match for love nor money?

It is as if they…. ahem, excuse me while I reposition my body and waggle my head smugly as I deliver this banger of a joke:  ARE SHIT AT TARGET COVERS WITH THE, WITH THE… THEY “MISS THE TARGET” LIKE A FIRING RANGE TARGET LIKE WHEN YOU’RE A KID AND YOU TRY ARCHERY OR WHATEVER


SO LIKE THEY CAN’T GET THE HEADS AND BODIES TO LINE UP SO THE TARGET IS… THE TARGET IS MISSED AND THE PUBLICATION COMPANY IS CALLED VIRGIN SO IT WORKS


Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 25, 2021, 02:16:54 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/d/dd/NA51_godengine.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Pyramids of Mars GodEngine by Craig Hinton

Having already read his PDA The Quantum Archangel, nothing really feels like excessive fanwank in comparison. Nevertheless, GodEngine is heavily tied to The Dalek Invasion of Earth, The Seeds of Death, Pyramids of Mars and Transit, and Hinton throws in references to a few other stories for good measure. What's odd is that, now having reached a point where the NAs are largely very good and have a recognisable feel of their own, this book feels like a Hartnell story. The Doctor and Roz start the book split off from Chris: the first meet some humans and Ice Warriors Martians and spend most of the book travelling through tunnels under the planet; Chris and a couple of scientists escape from Charon, Pluto's moon about to be attacked by Daleks, and end up being captured by more Ice Warriors, where brainwashing and a daring escape plan happen. It's so trad that it makes Mark Gatiss's books seem revolutionary. And while there are loads of intriguing ideas, often reasonably well realised - a peaceful, religious Ice Warrior sect; ethical quandaries about whether humans or Ice Warriors are worse; one character finding peace after his family were killed - the overriding feeling is that of a Hartnell-era seven-parter: the book really fucking drags. Which is partially the pace - the Doctor and crew walking through tunnels for days is hardly stimulating stuff - and partially Hinton's utterly turgid prose. Roz wishes Benny was with them, as she's an expert on Martian history. Great. And then she wishes it again. And again. And again. Throughout the book. The Transit tunnel helping the scientists escape Charon is going to a mystery (read: obvious) place. But where? Where were they going? They had no idea where they would end up! Ad nauseam. This kind of repetition is used in numerous scenarios. And when it's not, there's paragraph after paragraph of technobabble. Not a brief explanation to add in-universe colour, but long exposition built around words that don't even exist. It's the first NA I've read that feels like it could have made a really good Target.
The Doctor and Roz are fine, the latter gradually overcoming her xenophobia. Chris is given a lot to do here and proves himself as an Adjudicator rather than just a childlike man, for the first time, even if he does spend the first half of the book thinking about how attractive one of the scientists is.
Overall: good ideas, astonishingly badly executed.

edit: oh yes, Daleks! For the first time in the NAs. Except, obviously, no actual Daleks - they're almost always called "invaders" - because Virgin couldn't get the license from the Terry Nation estate. So they're barely present.

Next time on Doctor Who... the start of the weird titles era.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 26, 2021, 04:45:31 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/4/46/NA052_christmasonarationalplanet.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Injuns Christmas on a Rational Planet by Lawrence Miles

And it was all going so well.
I don't really know how to describe that. There's some stuff about the Time Lords banishing irrationality from the universe, 18th century New York succumbs to complete madness, Chris goes around the TARDIS with the embodiment of cacophony... It fits in with novels like Managra and Falls the Shadow in terms of going all-out on the surrealist front, only it does absolutely nothing with it. After a briefly interesting first few pages - starting with the Doctor wanting to tie up some loose ends from the end of SLEEPY - it's just page after page after page of 'weird stuff happened' until it becomes literary sludge. Almost none of it matters, there are entire chapters that could be pretty much skipped over other than the odd paragraph with no impact on understanding the story. It's possible that it's intentionally meta, reflecting the battle between reason and chaos, showing just how horrible uncontrolled imagination with no rules or rationality can be, but a) I'm not convinced that's true, and b) horrible is horrible, regardless. There are a lot of very funny lines throughout the book, but they jar with the grimdark nature of the rest of it. And there's some very dodgy gender politics running throughout, of the "men and women are naturally programmed to do this and that" variety which doesn't do it any favours at all. There are some references to Time Lord history which I'm sure will be important in these final NAs, and a sneaky look at Seven's death (still forthcoming in the literary world). I'd do a character-by-character rundown, but they're largely non-entities, especially the guests who might as well not be given names for how little depth they have.
It's been a run of largely excellent books for a while now, with a couple of ok but flawed ones in there, but this has killed that momentum stone dead.

edit: The cover, bafflingly, doesn't reference anything that happens in the book at all.

Next time on Doctor Who... let's hope Kate Orman can kickstart things once more.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on July 26, 2021, 07:00:44 PM
Despite having enjoyed some of Loz's later books I remember this one being a huge letdown and barely made any impression at all. I think he himself described it as being a case of that typical first time author mistake where you try to cram as many things you always wanted to write about into one book just in case you never get to do another one.

Incidentally, that cover was a replacement for the original which was deemed too terrible even for a Virgin NA, astonishingly.

(https://i.imgur.com/RbYDU2l.png)

I think they've had worse than that. Left-Handed Hummingbird for instance.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 26, 2021, 07:15:37 PM
What's so bad about that?  At least McCoy's face is supposed to be distorted.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 26, 2021, 08:19:27 PM
So they decided to replace it with one that's got nothing to do with the story. Strange people. That would certainly make sense about the book, though. Most of the "what the fuck was that?" novels seem to be by first timers.

Just started the next book and, excitingly, this is the one where The Doctor first wears the movie outfit!!!!!!
Also, Benny's back already.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on July 26, 2021, 09:12:52 PM
Of course. someone at Virgin still thought this was sound enough that they commissioned Lawrence. And yes, he did go on to write some of the best Doctor Who stories ever, but this certainly wasn't one of them. I do wonder if Virgin looked at the manuscript and thought 'yeah, that's good and weird, let's 'ave it' - perhaps seeing another Paul Cornell, since his first novel for the range was so weird, especially compared to the conventional narratives of the previous three books. But Revelation had, as it were, already been written for that Davison fan fiction. All that Paul had to do was re-cast and re-jig a little bit, and his later annoying self-indulgence was hardly present at all in that book. Also, the Timewyrm at least gave a recurring adversary with a genuine arc. 'Psi Powers' was so vague that it was never going to grab anyone as an ongoing narrative force. And Revelation is a lean, stripped-down little hot rod of a book - one of the shortest in the whole Virgin range. Christmas sprawls. And sprawls without any real sense of where it's going and what it's doing.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on July 26, 2021, 10:00:42 PM
Lawrence submitted this on spec. It landed in the slush pile. Gareth Roberts was making some extra cash by reading and reporting on NA submissions for Virgin, and read Lawrence's submission. He loved it. Sadly, he put it back in the slush pile by mistake rather than in the "show this to Rebecca Levene" pile. It lay there for a year until it cycled back to the top. At which point Gareth read it again and, mortified, immediately hurried it over to Rebecca, who commissioned it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 26, 2021, 10:23:48 PM
Christmas sprawls. And sprawls without any real sense of where it's going and what it's doing.
Yes, that sums it up in a sentence far better than I managed in a paragraph.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 27, 2021, 04:56:34 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/f/f3/NA53_returnofthelivingdad.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Invasion of the Aliens Return of the Living Dad by Kate Orman

Another cover that depicts something not in the book. Jolly good.
Thankfully that was a return to form for the series. The first half of the book is a gentle, heartfelt story about Benny finally finding her dad, who went missing when she was a very young child. He's in... 20th century Earth, of course. Where else? There's a brief aside about a C19 operative torturing and killing aliens, but it's mostly about Benny, her dad and the Doctor, and it's lovely. The second half takes a slightly predictable twist with her dad having a scheme involving nuclear missiles, only he's actually just misguided rather than evil, and the bigger threat is another alien, only he's under orders from the Daleks, only they're under orders from... someone? It's not revealed. The gradual reveal of this plot is handled really well and feels very much like the kind of storyline you'd get in a '70s serial. Meanwhile, Chris and Roz get together. That's not going to end well. There's even an Auton in the form of a spatula called Graeme.
It pre-empts the RTD era by introducing a group of nerds writing zines about UFOs and such, including blurry photographs of the TARDIS, known knowledge about the Doctor, speculating whether he might one day regenerate as a woman and such. It's also the closest the NAs have come, so far, to a story set on contemporary Earth (1983, in this case). There have been occasional chapters, but this is the first time an entire book has been contained in such a familiar environment (even if it is a village populated by stranded aliens). The return of Benny for this story is another thing that feels closer to the 21st century series than the classic era, like Martha popping up in series 4.
There are a few continuity things - the Dalek Invasion of Earth rears its head again (I think it's been referenced in the NAs more often than any other story), and there are a couple of UNIT dating gags. The Doctor is weary, and even without knowing there are only a handful of NAs left, I'd be able to guess a regeneration isn't far away. This feels like his season 18. He retains his humour, though.
It's a very warm, very funny story with some strong character stuff and a nicely escalating threat. In other words, the polar opposite of the last book. The Psi Powers arc is barely present, which is fine as I'm sure it'll all come together in good time when it needs to.

Next time on Doctor Who... oh good, another first timer.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on July 27, 2021, 05:12:47 PM
That pun is making my teeth itch.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 27, 2021, 07:34:23 PM
It feels like a chapter title rather than a book title. The titles in these later ones do get a bit odd, though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on July 27, 2021, 08:45:39 PM
That pun is making my teeth itch.

It was almost "Big Trouble In Little Chalfont". I think that would have been a better title.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 28, 2021, 11:48:51 AM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/a/a4/Deathofart_na54.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Cuddly Lizards The Death of Art

Nnnnggggg.
Tedious. Eye-achingly, brain-numbingly tedious. After a promising prologue (or "Chapter 0") with Charles Dickens being stalked by anthropromorphic dolls, Ace alerting the Doctor to a time vortex rift in 19th century Paris, and a large killer lizard in that city's drains, the book slows to an absolute crawl. Page after page of non-descript, morose Frenchmen moping about Paris, thinking about shady collectives like the Brotherhood and the real Brotherhood and the Directory and the Shadow Directory and the Family and the Fingermen without disclosing who they are. None are given a distinct voice - everyone in the book has the same speech and thought patterns - and most of them hide their identity with name changes and body changes, meaning it's difficult to know - or care about - who's actually involved. It doesn't help that the focus continually shifts to Chris Cwej, who'll be noticing the paint in a room for a couple of paragraphs, then to a French policeman for a page, then to Montague for a few more paragraphs, then to Emil, then back to Chris, then to Veber, then Roz, then Mirakle, rarely for more than a page or two, rarely revealing anything and yet always ending a perspective on a minor cliffhanger. The attempt to provide ongoing tension fails, resulting in literary sludge. And just when it seems to be picking up speed, if shifts to some ten-dimensional aliens called Quoths, referring to concepts like The Shadow and The Blight in time-frames like "a billion life-patterns". Even for a first-timer, this is fucking horrible stuff. Even my Kindle app felt the same: at one point I read for about an hour and the estimated time remaining moved forward about five minutes.
The link between the Quoth and Paris plots is genuinely inspired, but literally the only redeeming aspect of the book.
As I enter the last lap of the NAs, after a run of books including Human Nature, The Also People, Just War and Happy Endings, I really can't be doing with this shite.

Next time on Doctor Who... Russell T. Davies.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 29, 2021, 04:07:06 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/5/5e/Damaged_goods_na55.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Worm-Men Damaged Goods by Russell T. Davies

The only thing I knew about this book before reading is that it's considered quite a controversial novel and one of the most 'adult' themed in the series. And now I see why. It's recognisably RTD, but largely the RTD of Queer as Folk, Years & Years and Children of Earth. Damaged Goods is about drug addiction, miscarriages, people selling babies, homophobia as repression of homosexuality, suicide, teenage prostitution, and mostly about loneliness. It's a heavy going, bleak book. And it's really, really good. It manages to cover these topics in a completely believable manner, never feeling exploitative, unlike so many other grimdark NAs. It's a book about a number of people who've suffered horrible tragedies in their lives. Every character feels real and utterly human. The Doctor, Chris and Roz are mostly sidelined, but necessarily so: to explain everything happening, the guest characters need all the space to explain their actions and feelings. It has a body count higher than your average Jim Mortimer novel, with a very long section describing the deaths of just some of the 11,000 victims of the N-Form, and goes to great lengths to describe the wide-spread destruction of the northern city in which it's set.
There are hints of RTD's TV Who in there - it's set on a council estate and centred around a family called Tyler, and there's a big rampaging cyborg at the climax, but in every other way it's probably the most adult story I've read in this entire run. Even Chris's shag-of-the-week turns out to be him giving sleeping with another guy a go. It's a real shame he wasn't able to put the wonderful character work in this book into play on screen, instead opting for the kind of over the top shite the end of Doomsday was laden with.
The psi powers story actually feels like it's beginning to get some traction here, with some references to the past and this directly leading into the next - and final - book in the arc.

Next time on Doctor Who... a reason to be glad I'm reading these now rather than as they came out.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on July 29, 2021, 05:18:50 PM
That pun is making my teeth itch.

It’s worth specifying when a dad is living, I think.  You’d never know otherwise.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on July 29, 2021, 06:32:58 PM
Is Damaged Goods the one that has The Tall Man from Phantasm in it?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on July 29, 2021, 06:39:19 PM
It's got a chap that a girl thinks of as The Tall Man, but his name is actually Thomas.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 01, 2021, 02:26:58 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/8/85/NA056_sovileasin.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Invasion of the Forresters So Vile a Sin by Ban Aaronovitch and Kate Orman

What a book to get delayed. It's no surprise that it would be this one, even without the hard drive crash it would have been a beast to get done, running considerably longer than any Who book before it (and, to the best of my knowledge, since) and tying up lots of plot strands. But still, I can't imagine having to wait a few months for what is effectively the book equivalent of one of the two-part series finales of the new version of the show. It'd be like skipping from Utopia to Partners in Crime with a handwave of "it's ok, Last of the Time Lords will be along midway through series four". Must have been really tedious.
Doubly so as it's the book where Roz dies. One could probably wait a few months for the psi powers arc to be tied up, but going from Roz being alive and well to the aftermath of her death (however it's handled in the next book) must have been really frustrating. As far as it goes, her death was handled really well, in a very surprising way. In that we don't see her die. She's simply one casualty of many in a military raid. It's treated with a fair bit of weight - the prologue is her funeral, the epilogue is hearing about the Doctor suffering a heart attack at the end of her funeral, and Benny finding out, and Chris not knowing how to cope. The Doctor almost gives up. It's very Twice Upon a Time, I suppose.
I can only only scratch the surface the main bulk of the book because there's so much going on. It really is like one of those RTD finales with tons of stuff happening on every page. It ties up Earth Empire plot strands from Original Sin (and, indeed, many early NAs) as well as resolving the psi powers arc reasonably well, although the climax is definitely overshadowed by Roz's death. There's everything from ancient Time Lord bowship-transporting TARDISes to civil war, and elements of all the previous psi powers novels are brought together neatly. There are multiple Doctors from various possible realities, including a lovely scene with an aged Third Doctor from a timeline where he settled on Earth and helped bring about interstellar peace in the process. There's even an emotional Ogron storyline. And an AI turns up as someone who is quite clearly Captain Redbeard Rum.
Anyway, quite a heavy going book, but a very satisfying one. Aaronovitch and Orman are fast becoming cornerstones of the series.

Next time on Doctor Who... another first time author. Great.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on August 01, 2021, 08:34:33 PM
Oh it's Matt Jones' novel next, I think I read that one at the time. All I mainly remember about it is being bemused about the vague explanation regarding what had happened to Roz (as Jones presumably had no idea due to the previous book being unfinished at time of writing the follow-up)

He was known for being a columnist in DWM and later wrote the script for what became The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, although I think it ended up being rewritten so extensively that the "written by" credit is possibly an exaggeration

I think SVAS ended up being one of the most obscure NAs because the delay getting it out meant it arrived right at the end of Virgin's licence, and subsequently vanished off the shelves almost immediately.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 01, 2021, 10:39:03 PM
I have never seen a physical copy of SVAS.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on August 01, 2021, 10:46:56 PM
There's one on ebay now for a tenner.

I've got a copy, but I'd never sell it.

It's Lungbarrow that seems to be the really rare one. I'd not sell my copy of it even though it seems to be on sale for a couple of hundred quid.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 02, 2021, 11:55:15 AM
I have one of those fan reprints of Lungbarrow, grabbed it off eBay before I realised that there were pirate ebooks to make it all easier.
I'm still surprised that Virgin losing the license meant they lost the rights to reprint their own novels.

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/d/df/NA057_badtherapy.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Faceless Ones Bad Therapy by Matthew Jones

After the psi powers arc, which I think it would be fair to describe as the most New Adventuresy run of New Adventures to date, a traditional Who story like this was a really welcome breather. And it's not trad just because it's small scale enough to imagine being filmed: the main story really feels like it was adapted from an unused Philip Hinchcliffe era story. 1958, Soho, and people are being ritually murdered, with none of the victims having any family or past. Other people are disappearing, being stalked and devoured by an evil black cab. Meanwhile, in a mental hospital, blank faced creatures are being manufactured as therapeutic aids. And it's all connected with a pair of ancient rulers on a distant planet.
It's a really nice creepy, atmospheric tale with enough twists and turns to keep the interest up. There are some stylistic links with the NA era, with both Chris and the Doctor struggling to deal with Roz's death, the unexpected return of Peri, who's given a much better send-off than she was on TV, and some exploration of the racism and homophobia of 1950s Britain. I'm not sure the Notting Hill riots being attributed to the events of the book is the most sympathetic way to write it, but it's... brave?
There's some emotional stuff in the second half which is quite nice and sees the main pair on better footing than they were at the start of the book. And Chris gets a shag, again.
All in all, rather nice.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 02, 2021, 12:55:07 PM
I can't believe that you've only got four left, and also that you then get to endure the early Eighth Doctor novels and their uber-trad plots.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on August 02, 2021, 01:38:32 PM
I can't believe that you've only got four left, and also that you then get to endure the early Eighth Doctor novels and their uber-trad plots.

Nah, do the rest of the NAs with Benny first and then slip into the bore-a-thon that is the EDAs first year.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 02, 2021, 03:16:41 PM
I'm planning on alternating between the EDAs and Benny NAs I think, might try and draw up a release schedule in fact. I know that some of them actually do tie together, albeit in vague, loose ways so I might as well make the most of it. My plan is then to start the Benny Big Finish stuff as well, which I know alternates between audios and novels for a while, and use that as a springboard for a complete Big Finish marathon as well. As it looks like we'll only be getting nine episodes of TV Who in the space of two or three years (and all of it Chibnall), this is all a nice and welcome stopgap.

There's also a PDA and a Telos to go between The Room With No Doors and Lungbarrow, plus then the movie novelisation and then, after The Eight Doctors, the awkwardly placed final NA, so nine more books before I can do a proper NA roundup.

edit: yes, I am a lunatic.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 03, 2021, 08:32:18 AM
BENNY
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 03, 2021, 12:00:23 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/7/73/NA058_eternityweeps.jpg)
The New Adventures and the Limping Spacemen Eternity Weeps by Jim Mortimore

Feeling increasingly silly writing my thoughts about Benny now, with this book being the third book she's been in the six since her departure, and the second in which she's the main character. Half of it's told from the perspective of her diary!
Still, if you're going to commission a book about the collapse of Benny's marriage, the callous hand of Jim Mortimore would seem the logical choice. She's actively unpleasant towards Jason in some parts of this book, while he's tediously clueless. It's got the shape of the breakdown of a marriage, only written by someone who doesn't quite know how to write realistic characters. It's a shame, because their rocky relationship could easily have been explored really well here, rather than two people sniping at each other with little reason. Still, Mortimore manages to wipe out a significant proportion of Earth's population (including a gruesome and totally unnecessary death for a returning Liz Shaw, just what we wanted!) - and make swathes of the planet uninhabitable - in the process, so it's all par for the course for Jimbo.
It starts off with an archaeological trip to find Noah's ark, which gets caught up in some local bother involving Iranian and Iraqi soldiers killing almost everyone involved, and then action shifts to the moon where an ancient terraforming virus is accidentally released, turning Earth into a sulphur-based landscape, with all life dying by their water being turned into sulphuric acid and them being corroded from the inside out. Liz Shaw is the first to die in this way, which is obviously how we, as fans, imagined her life going. The Doctor is completely out of his depth, which has been a theme over the past few books. At one point he even manages to make the situation worse. This gradual move from him being the manipulative Time's Champion character to a mellower, more emotionally responsive Doctor in time for his regeneration is something I'm enjoying, so that's a plus, although he's actually barely in the book at all. Benny and Jason are largely annoying, which is unfortunate as the book is written - unconvincingly - as their diaries, each offering alternating chapters. None of them actually feel like diary entries. Chris is pretty much absent, even in the scenes he's involved in. His only development is believing a Silurian Earth Reptile is Roz. I think he's due for a breakdown soon.
All in all, a book with huge scope but ultimately just very unpleasant and negative. Which is what I've come to expect from Jim Mortimore at this point.
Doctor Who is not referenced on the front cover, another sign that we're heading into a new era. The covers of these last three books are preparing us for the forthcoming Benny books.

Next time on Doctor Who... goodbye Chris Cwej. I think.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on August 03, 2021, 12:43:56 PM
Eternity Weeps is hilariously OTT in the damage that gets done to the Earth.

IIRC Liz doesn't die on the page, so there's another piece of work suggesting that she got mercy killed. Which is ... better?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on August 03, 2021, 12:50:16 PM
Oh wow, I'd forgotten all about that one. I remember how ridiculously unpleasant and excessively apocalyptic it was; I remember thinking the chapter presented as a Threads-esque emergency publication type thing was quite innovative for an NA, but a terrible fit for a Doctor Who story. I walked away from that book with a grudge against the author, but I forgot all about Mortimore in the years to come, and I don't think I've read anything else of his. Did he do more Who writing?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on August 03, 2021, 01:14:08 PM
Mortimore's love of inflicting brutal injuries on his characters seems almost pathological, you almost get the impression he hates every single one of them about and wants them to suffer. Doesn't Bernice get shot through the lung in Blood Heat? What was the point of that?

Actually I've just remembered a Mortimer story I did enjoy reading, the short story "Book Of Shadows" from the first Decalog. Although I think Ian Chesterton does die in that one so even a Mortimore short story has to feature some gratuitous suffering.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 03, 2021, 01:52:28 PM
I remember thinking the chapter presented as a Threads-esque emergency publication type thing was quite innovative for an NA, but a terrible fit for a Doctor Who story.
Oh, yes, that was also quite blackly funny in a When the Wind Blows way. Apparently Mortimore intended the book to be a comedy, which I can kind of see - it's basically a farce of death - but nah, it's still fucking unpleasant.
Quote
Did he do more Who writing?
Yes, and vast numbers of characters die in almost every single one. Parasite involves the death of all life in a solar system-sized biosphere.
Mortimore's love of inflicting brutal injuries on his characters seems almost pathological, you almost get the impression he hates every single one of them about and wants them to suffer. Doesn't Bernice get shot through the lung in Blood Heat? What was the point of that?
She also gets shot in Eternity Weeps. It's hard not to see him as some kind of sociopath, really.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on August 03, 2021, 02:15:02 PM
Did he do more Who writing?

WELL.

He wrote "Eye Of Heaven" and "Beltempest" for BBC Books. He was commissioned to write a First Doctor book called "Campaign" for them, too, but the book he delivered was nothing like the book they commissioned, so they rejected it. It would be fair to say that Jim did not take this well, eventually putting the emails between the BBC and himself online (or in the book when he self-published, I can't remember).

(Spoiler: Jim comes out of this looking pretty bad.)

He wrote "The Natural History Of Fear" for Big Finish, and also did a Tomorrow People play. He was commissioned to write a Bernice Summerfield play called "Last Of The Drop Dead Divas" but they cancelled it once he submitted it. More on this can be read in Bernice Summerfield: The Inside Story.

(Spoiler: Jim comes out of this looking pretty unreasonable.)

These days he goes on Gallifrey Base and talks about the BBC plot to undermine white men in the current era of Doctor Who.

In short: Jim Mortimore - you can keep him.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on August 03, 2021, 02:52:25 PM
Eye of Heaven - OK, I think. Highly non-linear. I think I had to re-read all the chapters in the intended orders to really 'get it'.

Beltempest - loads of people die, planet-loads iirc, even with some religious-metaphor-as-nanomachine thing keeping them alive. Drs heartbeat is a jazz rhythm.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on August 03, 2021, 04:57:29 PM
WELL.

He wrote "Eye Of Heaven" and "Beltempest" for BBC Books. He was commissioned to write a First Doctor book called "Campaign" for them, too, but the book he delivered was nothing like the book they commissioned, so they rejected it. It would be fair to say that Jim did not take this well, eventually putting the emails between the BBC and himself online (or in the book when he self-published, I can't remember).

(Spoiler: Jim comes out of this looking pretty bad.)

He wrote "The Natural History Of Fear" for Big Finish, and also did a Tomorrow People play. He was commissioned to write a Bernice Summerfield play called "Last Of The Drop Dead Divas" but they cancelled it once he submitted it. More on this can be read in Bernice Summerfield: The Inside Story.

(Spoiler: Jim comes out of this looking pretty unreasonable.)

These days he goes on Gallifrey Base and talks about the BBC plot to undermine white men in the current era of Doctor Who.

In short: Jim Mortimore - you can keep him.

Campaign is quite an interesting read, but not in a "likely to be published by BBC Books" kind of a way.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on August 03, 2021, 06:26:47 PM
The Natural History Of Fear is good to be fair.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 04, 2021, 12:19:45 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/9/91/NA059_theroomwithnodoors.jpg)
The Room With No Doors by Kate Orman

"Oh yes," said the Doctor. "This is just an adventure. A bit of swordplay, a few jokes, nothing worth taking very seriously."
The Seventh Doctor's second-to-last (ish) story is very deliberately low key. After some ludicrously dark and over the top tales, the whole series is winding down to the basics to ease in to the huge mythos-building finale. It's a story that could easily have been broadcast any time between 1965 and 1989. The Doctor and Chris land in feudal Japan, and find various groups of samurais fighting over an alien pod. A Victorian scientist and her companion - Joel, from Return of the Living Dad - believe they've made a time machine and get involved. The Doctor helps free the bird-like alien from inside the pod, and the fighting stops. End. The prose in the first half is so flighty it could almost have come from a Target novelisation.
But of course, this book isn't about the main plot. It's about The Doctor. In one of the psi powers books - I can't remember which - he saw a foreshadowing of his next regeneration: a pointless death, entirely alone. It's a really nice way of hanging a lampshade on how terrible the death actually is, and makes me hate it a lot less. He's been worrying more and more about it. He and Chris talk a lot about regeneration in general, and his fears about the upcoming one, and difficulties of past ones. He considers whether it would be better to just die for good. More Twice Upon a Time foreshadowing. Chris, similarly, has his own fears, believing himself to be responsible for Liz Shaw's painful death in the last book, and thinking he's useless and not the heroic Adjudicator he wants to be. Basically he wants to live up to the standard he feels Roz set. And it's all done really beautifully. Orman writes character-led novels better than just about any other author in the line that I've come across so far, and this might be her best in that vein yet. The events of the novel, and the main two characters contrasted with Penelope and Joel - the former refusing to get involved in history, the latter getting involved too much - give both of them a chance to act wisely and reflect on their pasts. They both manage to find peace with themselves and their pasts. Both characters are done real justice with the writing: this is by far the best Chris novel to date, and it's a shame to be losing him; we see events from the Doctor's perspective, which a rarity, and it gives him a sense of vulnerability and humanity that he's been gradually working towards. He's becoming the peaceful version of the character we see at the start of the movie. It even manages to retcon the ludicrous idea from Head Games that this incarnation 'killed' the Sixth Doctor because he needed to be Time's Champion.
I kind of wish the Japanese stuff was more engaging, because it definitely lets the book down a little and loses it a point or two: there's a lot of detail, but it feels strangely superfluous with all the fascinating character stuff going on.
Still, it's a really good thing that the movie came along the way it did, because it allowed the Virgin team to wind up Seven's story brilliantly, giving them a goal to reach, and enabling them to foreshadow the regeneration nicely. A lovely book.

Next time on Doctor Who... Lungbarrow! a PDA. The past few books have been leading up the regeneration so well that I really hope this isn't tonally jarring. Would be a shame to lose the momentum.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 04, 2021, 01:59:56 PM
Imagine an entire barrow of lungs
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: notjosh on August 04, 2021, 02:05:42 PM
I have absolutely no desire to 'get in' to Doctor Who novelisations, but if there was one that I absolutely, pos-i-tiv-ely had to read what would it be?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on August 04, 2021, 02:33:57 PM
I have absolutely no desire to 'get in' to Doctor Who novelisations, but if there was one that I absolutely, pos-i-tiv-ely had to read what would it be?

Human Nature. There's a reason that it, out of all the VNAs, was cherry-picked to be adapted for TV, because it's just that good.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 04, 2021, 03:27:19 PM
I have absolutely no desire to 'get in' to Doctor Who novelisations, but if there was one that I absolutely, pos-i-tiv-ely had to read what would it be?
In terms of actual novelisations, Remembrance of the Daleks is your go-to, a wonderful book that expands on the TV version in the most wonderful ways.
In terms of original novels, of the Virgin New Adventures I'd say Human Nature is a very good starting point. It's quite different from the one that was adapted for the new series. If you want something very traditionally Who-ish, Nightshade is a lot of fun. For Past Doctor stories, the Fourth Doctor stories Festival of Death and The Well-Mannered War, set between Shada and The Leisure Hive, are magnificent. A couple of the ones written since the new series started, Harvest of Time (Third Doctor) and The Drosten's Curse (Fourth Doctor), are fantastic.

Quick bit of research and it seems Bullet Time and Companion Piece are probably set after Lungbarrow, so on to that I go. Also, it turns out I share a birthday with Chris Cwej.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on August 04, 2021, 04:28:10 PM
The novelisation of The Creature from the Pit is good, David Fisher channels Douglas Adams quite well.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: notjosh on August 04, 2021, 04:52:13 PM
Thanks, will have a look for those next time I'm book shopping, especially Human Nature as it's possibly my favourite new-Who story. I did read Moffat's Day of the Doctor novelisation which is pretty good fun.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on August 04, 2021, 05:32:37 PM
I'll nominate Doctor Who and the Cave Monsters, which is Malcolm Hulke's adaptation of The Silurians, and from the NA I remember liking All-Consuming Fire, where Doctor Who meets Sherlock Holmes.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2d/All-Consuming_Fire.JPG)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on August 05, 2021, 05:34:20 AM
It's Dr Who meets Sherlock Holmes IN a C19th sci-fi story! (eg CS Lewis-style)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 05, 2021, 05:40:19 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/d/de/NA060_lungbarrow.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Friendly Nimon Lungbarow by Marc Platt

Hooooooo boy.
Before The Timeless Child there was The Other. Despite the hints given in season 26, and expanded upon a little in the Remembrance novelisation, the actual Cartmel Masterplan remained a vague mystery during the show's time on the BBC. It wasn't until Marc Platt introduced the idea of Looms in Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible that we really started to see bits of Gallifreyan history. On the whole, this was left on the back seat throughout the NAs, with only a handful of reference to Looms, Lungbarrow and the Other throughout the 60 Seventh Doctor books. Until it came to regeneration time, and the end of Virgin's license, and so Platt finished up by giving the Doctor a backstory.
The difference between The Timeless Child and this is it doesn't fundamentally change who the Doctor is. If anything, it helps explain his character a bit. One of the founders of Time Lord society, the Other, felt constrained by his society even back then, but as he was unable to escape, he threw himself into the Loom - the genetic material used to create new Time Lords since they became sterile - and was effectively reborn as an entirely new being as the Doctor. And although it explains why he seems different to most other Time Lords, it's also explicit in the fact that the Doctor is the Doctor, his personality simply inspired by his former existence. He's still just a Time Lord. Is it necessary? Not especially. Is it satisfying? Vaguely. Does it destroy our idea of who he is? No. And of that I'm really glad. It manages to make him mysterious and different and yet still totally normal at the same time. Which is quite a clever thing to do, and handily works as an intriguing reveal that can effectively be forgotten forever.
As a book itself, it's frustrating. There's so much going on - an exploration of the Doctor's house, the introduction of several of his Loom Cousins, a military coup in the Capitol, the return of Romana, Leela, Ace and K9 Marks I & II (who have a bloody brilliant scene together) - but it's bogged down by the Cousins themselves who are almost all unlikeable, a collection of snivelling, argumentative characters who feel like attempts at creating some Dickensian-style grotesques but just come across as childish and annoying. They live in a sentient house, full of plants, and living oversized furniture. It goes too far into fantasy and is totally at odds with Gallifrey and Doctor in general. It felt to me like a particularly humourless mix of Terry Pratchett and Roald Dahl trying to write Gormenghast.
Chris is given some good stuff to start off with but is utilised as nothing but a vehicle for the unconscious Doctor in the second half; his exit is pretty much brushed over. Although far from being a Dodo or a Mel, he never truly came into his own in these books, which is a real shame as there was potential in his character. Everyone else is nicely done, especially the flashbacks of the First Doctor, who Platt captures magnificently. The prose is reasonable, better than the oft-impenetrable Time's Crucible, but low on truly memorable or striking imagery or phrases. It gets the job done.
Continuity-wise it's surprisingly light, with only two links to the TV series: how he came to have the Hand of Omega, and who Susan is. The latter, similar to the Doctor's revelation, is kind of unnecessary in the overall Who picture, but doesn't actually change anything. And I suppose there's the infertility plot from Time's Crucible, finally concluded by giving Leela the first pregnancy on Gallifrey in millennia. Lucky her. She and Aldred have about as much chemistry in the book as they did on screen. There's also a nice reference to the season 27 plot of the Doctor wanting to send Ace to the Time Lord Academy ("no thanks," is her reply).
It ends with a foreshadowing of the movie - the TARDIS is forced to change its interior, and President Romana sends the Doctor on a trip to an inexplicably-rebuilt Skaro to collect The Master's ashes. It'll tie in very nicely with the movie novelisation, which will be slightly undermined by the PDA and Telos novella I have between.
So, yeah. It's Lungbarrow. It does the unforgivable and just about gets away with it.

Next time on Doctor Who... er, Seven and Sarah Jane Smith?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on August 05, 2021, 05:53:18 PM
I have absolutely no desire to 'get in' to Doctor Who novelisations, but if there was one that I absolutely, pos-i-tiv-ely had to read what would it be?

It's an obvious one, but (assuming that you're including novels as well as novelisations), then Alien Bodies probably the best of the 8th Doctor books.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 06, 2021, 02:08:35 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/16/Bullet_Time.jpg)
Bullet Time by David A. McIntee

Unlike the 1970s, which had distinct cutoff points between companions, the New Adventures have no gaps. So where this story of Seven, on his own, helping some aliens escape Earth and accidentally finding himself the head of the Hong Kong Triad fits in I don't know. Especially given that David McIntee wrote several NAs. It certainly isn't post-Lungbarrow, as, even ignoring that book's direct lead in to the movie, the Doctor is the white suited plotter of the mid NAs here. As with most McIntee novels, the culture is exceptionally well researched, which sadly ends up just being lists of researched culture regurgitated onto the page rather than feeling like a living, breathing world. The story is utterly bland. Sarah Jane gets to meet the Seventh Doctor, gets a bit moody with him and then forgives him, which is about as far as characterisation goes. Dull.


(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/b/b4/Companion_Piece_limited_edition_cover.jpg)
Companion Piece by Robert Perry & Mike Tucker

This, on the other hand, exists in a very different timeline to the NAs, as it features a companion called Cat who replaced Ace after she left. Perry and Tucker never wrote for the NAs, so it's less surprising, and the Telos books have largely been a lot more experimental than the main lines so it feels like a 'what if?' type story. Sadly it's crap. Might as well be called Doctor Who vs. the Space Catholics. The first half is the Doctor being tortured by the Inquisition - who have decided that Time Lords are witches - and the second half leads up to a boring reveal that Cat is a robot. I really enjoyed their Season 27 series of books, but this was a really let down.


Next time on Doctor Who... the Eighth Doctor, finally!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on August 06, 2021, 02:23:22 PM
I have absolutely no desire to 'get in' to Doctor Who novelisations, but if there was one that I absolutely, pos-i-tiv-ely had to read what would it be?

Donald Cotton's The Myth Makers

Although if you happen by accident to pick up either of his two other comic masterpieces, The Romans and The Gunfighters, you'll be equally impressed. 
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 06, 2021, 10:03:42 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61g+mc0iGSL.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Terrible Puns Doctor Who - The Novel of the Film by Gary Russell

I love the fact that at the end of Lungbarrow, Marc Platt went out of his way to tie the ending into the film, and yet almost all of that is undone in the opening chapter of the novelisation: The Doctor has changed the TARDIS interior out of choice, and retrieves the Master's remains after a telepathic communication with him. Of course, the novelisation was written from an early draft of the script, and so differs in a few places (mostly subtle, although the fight at the end here features a bleached out silhouette as the Master's body deteriorates, which would have been awful with the visual effects of 1996); I've gone with the 1996 novelisation here, while the version this past March changes things again to be somewhere between the final film and the book. I can't be arsed to read it to compare, although some of the differences look interesting (notably the removal of the half-human nonsense). The one genuinely good addition is the description of the Master having joined with a reptilian creature which absorbs consciousnesses, explaining why he's a body-jumping snake in the film.
Despite it being significantly longer in terms of page count, once it gets going, it's mostly just like a Target novelisation, with little in the way of depth or interested added to it. The story's still a bit crap, with too many action sequences and not enough actual plot. Having not seen Eric Roberts's performance as The Master, and a few script changes along the way, he basically feels like Anthony Ainley's version, which is no bad thing for me as I cannot stand the movie incarnation of the character. Otherwise, eh, it's an inauspicious start to the Eighth Doctor's run. Still, I'm looking forward to whatever comes next, if only because my exposure to the character is still limited to the movie and Night of the Doctor. Even if there's some bland stuff ahead, at least it's totally new territory for me.

Next time on Doctor Who... a notoriously terrible book. Can't wait!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Psybro on August 07, 2021, 12:35:25 AM
Getting into Doctor Who as a result of seeing the TV movie (there must be about six of us out there somewhere), the novelization was probably the first Who book I bought. I'll see if I can dig it out of my ancestral home this weekend.

I think I filled the gap between it and The Eight Doctors with the only Who books in the school library, The Left-Handed Hummingbird (impenetrable) and the Power of the Daleks script (good fun). Also randomly bought the MA System Shock, what a weird artefact that is.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 07, 2021, 12:49:41 AM
Getting into Doctor Who as a result of seeing the TV movie (there must be about six of us out there somewhere)

You've found one of the other five here. Started with The TV Movie circa 2003 and then watched Pertwee omnibuses on Saturday mornings on UK Gold.

Still not read/listened to the novelisation but I do have it on audible waiting for me.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on August 07, 2021, 05:57:22 AM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/16/Bullet_Time.jpg)
Bullet Time by David A. McIntee

Unlike the 1970s, which had distinct cutoff points between companions, the New Adventures have no gaps. So where this story of Seven, on his own, helping some aliens escape Earth and accidentally finding himself the head of the Hong Kong Triad fits in I don't know. Especially given that David McIntee wrote several NAs. It certainly isn't post-Lungbarrow, as, even ignoring that book's direct lead in to the movie, the Doctor is the white suited plotter of the mid NAs here. As with most McIntee novels, the culture is exceptionally well researched, which sadly ends up just being lists of researched culture regurgitated onto the page rather than feeling like a living, breathing world. The story is utterly bland. Sarah Jane gets to meet the Seventh Doctor, gets a bit moody with him and then forgives him, which is about as far as characterisation goes. Dull.



IIRC it is strongly implied Sarah-Jane is killed at the end, which is a future plot point raising its head.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Psybro on August 07, 2021, 09:00:05 AM
You've found one of the other five here. Started with The TV Movie circa 2003 and then watched Pertwee omnibuses on Saturday mornings on UK Gold.

Still not read/listened to the novelisation but I do have it on audible waiting for me.

Thanks to somebody wonderfully putting up a list of the UK Gold air dates (https://broadwcast.org/index.php/UK_Gold), I can see that I started watching the Sunday omnibus religiously at the end of 1996 with the final part of Trial of a Time Lord, somehow kept going through Time and the Rani, and stuck with it when they reset from Survival to Robot.  Explains why Seasons 12-14 are still Peak Doctor Who to me. I started losing interest when the Key to Time kicked off.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 07, 2021, 10:03:44 AM
Thanks to somebody wonderfully putting up a list of the UK Gold air dates (https://broadwcast.org/index.php/UK_Gold), I can see that I started watching the Sunday omnibus religiously at the end of 1996 with the final part of Trial of a Time Lord, somehow kept going through Time and the Rani, and stuck with it when they reset from Survival to Robot.  Explains why Seasons 12-14 are still Peak Doctor Who to me. I started losing interest when the Key to Time kicked off.

Blimey, don't know how I missed so much. I had this impression that UK Gold only ever repeated Pertwee because that was all I ever managed to watch on there. After that I started picking up the DVDs for other Doctors.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on August 07, 2021, 11:01:16 AM
summer 1994 all the way to when Pertwee got dropped in 1997
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 07, 2021, 01:58:24 PM
IIRC it is strongly implied Sarah-Jane is killed at the end, which is a future plot point raising its head.
Ah yes, it was a bit vague but I assumed that would probably tie in at some point.
Also randomly bought the MA System Shock, what a weird artefact that is.
Ha, System Shock is a lot of fun, one of those wonderful '90s techno thrillers that feel so wonderfully naive.

My early Who experiences were mostly the BBC repeat runs in the '90s - I remember Spearhead from Space, The Silurians, Planet of the Daleks, The Green Death, Genesis of the Daleks and Pyramids of Mars. I also think I caught Remembrance of the Daleks on its initial run, because I was absolutely terrified that they could now fly!

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/8/8f/Eight_doctors_cover.jpg)
The Eight Doctors by Terrance Dicks

For fuck's sake.
I believe it's widely considered that one of the biggest mistakes of the movie was starting by killing the Doctor, and then giving him amnesia for much of the remainder: if you're going to do a pilot for a show about a particular character, don't leave it until the final act before we begin to see the promise the character has. Still, with that over, we can finally get on with getting to know the new Doctor and his adventures, right?
No. Terrance Dicks, instead, decides to give the Eighth Doctor amnesia again. And so he spends the whole book going back in time to each of his previous incarnations, so he can telepathically recover his memories from them. I mean, he could just have gone back to the Seventh and got the whole lot from him, but that would have made for a very short book, and it's pretty clear that Uncle Terry was already struggling to fill a book with seven such journeys in. This struggle is made most obvious by the numerous pages taken up by recapping, and even straight up replaying, the past stories surrounding the visits. After he's given the Second Doctor a nudge about pleading with the Time Lords, we then get the rest of the War Games scene before they turn up, line for line. The entire plots of The Sea Devils, State of Decay and The Five Doctors are retold to us at length. And then they're all given codas, none of which are remotely any good. The Master's escape in The Sea Devils is boring, and him turning up to try and kill the Doctor and Jo again is also boring. State of Decay: oh, there are more vampires! Great. The Five Doctors: the Raston Robot is back and Five and Eight have to escape it. There's never any tension because we know the plot is going to be wrapped up in a chapter or two, and it's written so badly. The utter nonsense of Trial of a Time Lord is given at least some sort of repair by pinning it on the Celestial Intelligence Agency, which is a theme that will no doubt be cropping up over the EDAs in the way it was the PDAs. But then that just turns into civil unrest on Gallifrey, and we all know how exciting stories set in the Capitol are. The First Doctor, hilariously, is given a few lines of dialogue and that's it: clearly Terry didn't know what to do with the character. There's definitely some sort of potential for the Doctor revisiting moments of his past in some sort of epic adventure, but this just felt like one of those Greatest Hits albums where the artist has re-recorded the songs: you'd never consider listening to it when you have the original albums.
On the subject of continuity, I knew the BBC range started with a blank slate, not expected to continue from the NAs, but I wasn't expecting them to be outright wiped from continuity from the word go. And yet that's what happens here: the Doctor remembers his parents, erasing the entire Loom concept; the Master's regeneration from First Frontier is similarly retconned, with the events preceding the movie following straight on from Survival; Romana is no longer president of Gallifrey; the novelisation's continuity seems to have become canon, thus making the end of Lungbarrow nonsensical. I know Doctor Who has always had a fairly loose sense of continuity, but this is actually ludicrous.
Terry's in full-on Target mode, which doesn't help. Despite a couple of swear words near the end, it reads like a kids' book, with most dialogue being little more than exposition, unnecessary exclamation marks everywhere, and character descriptions going barely beyond brief descriptions of their clothes. The only entertaining writing was a very funny exchange of dialogue between the Third Doctor and the Brigadier, which felt so genuine to the era (perhaps unsurprisingly) that it felt out of place among the blandness surrounding it. New companion Sam, briefly introduced, is so far a complete non-entity: a schoolgirl who doesn't like drugs is about as far as her characterisation got.
In short: one of the worst Doctor Who novels I've read.

Next time on Doctor Who... more continuity fun as Sam is briefly written out to account for the final Doctor Who New Adventure, The Dying Days. And a NA roundup.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on August 07, 2021, 03:28:42 PM
The BBC Books existed in a weird place, as officially they didn't acknowledge the NA continuity, but some writers slipped in references anyway, and there are plot threads introduced in the NAs that eventually reappear further down the line. But I can remember the disappointment of going from Lungbarrow to the Eight Doctors and realising the last six years of stories might as well never have happened.

I assume the premise was mandated by the BBC, as it's clearly aimed at an audience new to Dr Who (banking on the success of the TV Movie no doubt), hence the Greatest Hits Tour of the all the previous stories. But it feels like Terrance was writing it without a clear idea of who the target (ha) audience for these books were going to be, a problem that seemed to afflict the early BBC books generally - are they for kids? Teenagers? Middle-aged fans? - leading to some pretty wild tonal shifts between stories. Or even within stories in this case, which goes from Sam getting a "drugs r bad" lecture from her Ian & Barbara-substitute teachers to complete continuity overload with the Gallifrey bits.

The post-it note introduction of Sam Jones is particularly poor, Dicks effectively absolves himself of the responsibility of introducing the new companion by having her sidelined for the entire story, leaving the next book to do all the legwork of actually defining what her character is.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Psybro on August 07, 2021, 07:49:02 PM
Ha, System Shock is a lot of fun, one of those wonderful '90s techno thrillers that feel so wonderfully naive.

Pre-teen me wasn't really prepared for a Fourth Doctor story about Internet espionage and bad guys who speak in managerese. Might give it another pop.

(https://i.ibb.co/BV3jynf/20210807-192410.jpg)

Pulled this lot out of my teen bedroom.  The Ancestor Cell is missing, no great loss.

(https://i.ibb.co/bWM34XV/20210807-193833.jpg)

These have got DWM issues 262-294 covering March 1998 to June 2000.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 07, 2021, 08:11:51 PM
The BBC Books existed in a weird place, as officially they didn't acknowledge the NA continuity, but some writers slipped in references anyway, and there are plot threads introduced in the NAs that eventually reappear further down the line.
Yeah, and I totally get why they did it: undoubtedly there were going to be new fans, as well as and returning fans who weren't aware of the NAs, but I still think it would have been better to just quietly ignore them rather than directly contradict them. You can understand Romana as president without needing to have read Blood Harvest and Lungbarrow; there was no need to reference the Doctor's parents in The Eight Doctors as it's not like they were ever a part of the TV series.
Even more annoyingly, Gary Russell clearly tried to tie in the novelisation to the NAs somewhat by having the church organ from Cheldon Bonniface in the TARDIS; The Eight Doctors seems to use the novelisation as a reference point, so this just makes it all the more confusing. Having just started The Dying Days, it's such a relief, and also kind of sad. From Human Nature onwards, they were a (largely) excellent series of books that I really enjoyed, with their own well-developed world and cast of characters. I suppose that's partly why I'm going to continue with the Benny NAs too, to help me through the cold reset of the EDAs.

Quite a few of the PDAs clearly tie in to Virgin-era concepts, so I was expecting the EDAs to start doing so too at some point, at which point the whole will start to feel even more convoluted than ever.
Pre-teen me wasn't really prepared for a Fourth Doctor story about Internet espionage and bad guys who speak in managerese. Might give it another pop.
Yes, it's definitely one of those which absolutely fails at capturing the vibe of the original era, something almost all of the MAs and a lot of the PDAs managed to do, despite them (the MAs, at least) being advertised as being able to slot comfortably into their original timeframes. It doesn't really feel like classic Who at all. Mind you, you should just be happy you didn't start with something like The Man in the Velvet Mask, which is a dark headfuck of a novel featuring a scene where Dodo loses her virginity.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 10:44:42 PM
It was either System Shock or its sequel, Millennium Shock, which had the Doctor and Harry commandeering a decommissioned Chieftain tank and rumbling it into Downing Street to confront the foe, though. It's hard to resist a conceit like that.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 08:39:02 AM
Mind you, you should just be happy you didn't start with something like The Man in the Velvet Mask, which is a dark headfuck of a novel featuring a scene where Dodo loses her virginity.

Was there ever a Torchwood line of books?  If so I’d imagine them to only contain descriptions of Doctor Who companions queuing up to lose their virginity.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on August 08, 2021, 09:52:42 AM
I remember really complaining about how shit The Eight Doctors was online (can't remember if it was usenet or a fan forum).

I said something along the lines that if this was the level of the new range I wasn't going to bother with The Devil Goblins from Neptune (which was the first Past Doctor Adventure from the BBC) which was released at the same time. It was unfortunate that the name of that book sounded so rubbish after enduring The Eight Doctors.

I got a reply from one of the two authors, Keith Topping or Martin Day, apologising to me for not enjoying their book and I replied to them saying I hadn't read it yet, I was just sounding off at the shit opening novel of the EDA range.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on August 08, 2021, 10:09:51 AM
Was there ever a Torchwood line of books?  If so I’d imagine them to only contain descriptions of Doctor Who companions queuing up to lose their virginity.

19 of them according to one site, and I regularly ignore them when I see them in charity shops.

On that subject, is Gareth Robert's novelisation of Shada worth reading? That's been in my local charity shop for ages now, I know Roberts is now a right old turd but I could be tempted to buy it if it's highly rated.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 10:28:25 AM
19 of them according to one site, and I regularly ignore them when I see them in charity shops.

On that subject, is Gareth Robert's novelisation of Shada worth reading? That's been in my local charity shop for ages now, I know Roberts is now a right old turd but I could be tempted to buy it if it's highly rated.

I imagine it would be a curiosity in the same way as that Hitchhiker’s Guide book not written by Douglas Adams was a curiosity
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on August 08, 2021, 10:41:37 AM
I imagine it would be a curiosity in the same way as that Hitchhiker’s Guide book not written by Douglas Adams was a curiosity

You may well be right, I read Terry Jones novelisation of Adams' PC game Starship Titanic a few months ago and that was overseen by Adams, and of course written by one of the most acclaimed comedians ever known, and yet it was still pretty weak (and weirdly sex obsessed, which isn't an aspect of the game) and something I struggled with despite it being quite short.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on August 08, 2021, 10:45:04 AM
It was a big shame he never novelised his stuff when he was alive. I know WH Allen wasn’t offering much but then he didn’t need the money.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 10:52:26 AM
I know WH Allen wasn’t offering much but then he didn’t need the money.

Didn't he die in 1943?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on August 08, 2021, 11:02:49 AM
2001
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 08, 2021, 11:23:33 AM
On that subject, is Gareth Robert's novelisation of Shada worth reading? That's been in my local charity shop for ages now, I know Roberts is now a right old turd but I could be tempted to buy it if it's highly rated.
It's worth a pop from a charity shop, probably the best of the Adams novelisations. Roberts is a huge fan of season 17 so gets the tone right, although it's possibly a bit much in places.
I remember really complaining about how shit The Eight Doctors was online (can't remember if it was usenet or a fan forum).

I said something along the lines that if this was the level of the new range I wasn't going to bother with The Devil Goblins from Neptune (which was the first Past Doctor Adventure from the BBC) which was released at the same time. It was unfortunate that the name of that book sounded so rubbish after enduring The Eight Doctors.

I got a reply from one of the two authors, Keith Topping or Martin Day, apologising to me for not enjoying their book and I replied to them saying I hadn't read it yet, I was just sounding off at the shit opening novel of the EDA range.
Oh bloody hell, I just remembered they started the PDAs with that. What a horrible book, and an astonishing step down from the last MA, Gareth Roberts's wonderful The Well-Mannered War. Mid 1997 must have been a bleak time for Who readers.
Was there ever a Torchwood line of books?
I have about ten, going to be reading them once I've finished all the Doctor Who novels. There are (unsurprisingly) a shit load of spinoff books, including a Turlough novel and a Harry Sullivan one, books about Ashildr, Missy, River Song, a whole series of Lethbridge-Stewarts, plus tie-ins for Class, Torchwood and a Big Finish-created character called Erimem. I will never be finished.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 11:25:14 AM
2001

I'll settle it by saying he died in 1943 in the Tom Baker version, and 2001 in the Paul McGann version.




Scepticism aside, if I was more interested in the novelisations generally I would probably give Shada a go.  This is because the story already fascinates me by existing within so many different versions, and there is a completist in me that, if it wasn't already preoccupied by too many other things, could easily seek out the novel as a matter of obsession.



On this topic, because maybe we can afford to drift this way, how do we rate the different versions of Shada?  I think for me the version completed by animation has to be definitive, but I'm not a big fan of the animation style, and I'm not entirely sure where I stand on the aged Tom Baker at the TARDIS console concluding the episode, but it's the closest we'll ever get to the story existing as it was originally devised.  With its new music score, it now echoes City of Death in ways that I hadn't noticed before.  I wish there was an option to watch it broken into 25-minute episodes, though.  As a feature-length piece it can't quite sit naturally as the final story of season 17.

The Paul McGann animated version is fascinating.  I've not much to say about it, but I'm really grateful that a version of Shada exists with the Eighth Doctor.  Treating the story as a kind of puzzle box that was ripped out of time was entirely appropriate, and while there are many examples in science fiction of characters revisiting previous adventures and interacting with them, the unfinished status of Shada is played with here in a way that doesn't feel cliched; I love it. 

Third place for me is the fragments of Shada used in The Five Doctors, just because at the time it was fresh Tom Baker material and exciting to see.  I must admit that I first saw The Five Doctors well into the 1990s, and I hadn't yet seen most of the Tom Baker serials, so why 'fresh Tom Baker material' should have appealed to me I'm not sure.  Maybe it's a bit like when a lost 1960s serial is unearthed, and even when you haven't yet seen all the extant Hartnell or Troughton stories it's exciting to rush to watch it.  And also there's something about the fact that the cameo appearance of Tom Baker is an elaborate, beautifully shot scene of the fourth Doctor and Romana on a canal on a punt.  Put simply, nobody would write such a scene, and for that reason I love it.

Finally it's the original VHS release of Shada which I can't be bothered with now that the animated version exists.  It does exactly what it needed to do at the time, but the music couldn't be more wrong for the era, and as the last leg of the story falls into fragments my heart kind of sinks with the lost potential.  It's nobody's fault - the footage simply hadn't been shot, and Tom Baker's narration is lovely, but there's no hiding the fundamentally incomplete nature of this story.  It's a fascinating anomaly, and I'm glad it exists.  I have it on DVD but the music is too jarring for me to continue stomaching now that it's no longer the only option.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 11:26:26 AM
a Big Finish-created character called Erimem.

8 Doctors Mile

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 08, 2021, 11:35:52 AM
Finally it's the original VHS release of Shada which I can't be bothered with now that the animated version exists.  It does exactly what it needed to do at the time, but the music couldn't be more wrong for the era, and as the last leg of the story falls into fragments my heart kind of sinks with the lost potential.  It's nobody's fault - the footage simply hadn't been shot, and Tom Baker's narration is lovely, but there's no hiding the fundamentally incomplete nature of this story.  It's a fascinating anomaly, and I'm glad it exists, I have it on DVD but the music is too jarring for me to continue stomaching.
It's a Keff McCulloch, isn't it? So hilariously inappropriate.
There is of course the first Dirk Gently book, which I was very surprised to discover is basically an updated Shada on first reading it.

Couple of snippets from the Shada novelisation:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKkGJp43/dw28.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRkHPNbg/dw29.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on August 08, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
It's worth a pop from a charity shop, probably the best of the Adams novelisations. Roberts is a huge fan of season 17 so gets the tone right, although it's possibly a bit much in places.

Thanks for that, if it ever stops raining today I plan to pop in and will pick it up if it's still there.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on August 08, 2021, 11:39:31 AM
That Sade joke is extremely shit
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 11:43:05 AM
It's worth a pop from a charity shop

https://twitter.com/hill_grange/status/1199437334888013824
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 11:49:01 AM
It's a Keff McCulloch, isn't it? So hilariously inappropriate.

I think so, yes.  It pulls Shada into season 24 territory (or Dimensions in Time territory, perhaps), which is perturbing to the senses and mind.  On a visceral level it repels.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on August 08, 2021, 11:57:23 AM
a Harry Sullivan one

Always meant to get hold of a copy of Harry Sullivan's War, being a big fan of Ian Marter's Target adaptations.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on August 08, 2021, 12:04:07 PM
how do we rate the different versions of Shada?

My favourite version is the one from an alternate future that got made, and transmitted, and hardly anyone talks about any more, at least only about as much as people talk about The Invasion of Time or The Armageddon Factor.

Don't get me wrong, it's fascinating that there's this apparently endless enthusiasm to put it out in different formats, but it's got to the point where part of me wishes the thing had just got made and shown and remembered thereafter as much as any other mid-tier Williams story
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
That Sade joke is extremely shit

This pronunciation guide for Sade is incredibly suspenseful:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELBVSTxZAIQ
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 08, 2021, 12:20:27 PM
That Sade joke is extremely shit
I enjoy it a lot as a really naff joke.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on August 08, 2021, 12:22:22 PM
Quote
Don't get me wrong, it's fascinating that there's this apparently endless enthusiasm to put it out in different formats, but it's got to the point where part of me wishes the thing had just got made and shown and remembered thereafter as much as any other mid-tier Williams story.

Exactly this. Shada is the classic example of a mediocre story that's been overblown by fan hype and rumour, and by an interesting writer. It was almost as much a holy Grail for fandom as Tomb Of The Cybermen once was, and - like that - was ultimately revealed to be 'okay, I suppose'.

And don't even get me started on whichever twat decided that it was necessary to make a novel of Doctor Who And The Krikkitmen.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 12:40:34 PM
Exactly this. Shada is the classic example of a mediocre story that's been overblown by fan hype and rumour, and by an interesting writer. It was almost as much a holy Grail for fandom as Tomb Of The Cybermen once was, and - like that - was ultimately revealed to be 'okay, I suppose'.

True enough, but having not been produced I love that it's become what it's become.  I'm someone who loves multiplicity and alternate versions of stuff; I doubt I'd have any interest in Star Wars if it didn't happen to exist in different editions.  I am fascinated by different approaches to completing/finishing things, or leaving them tangibly incomplete/unfinished.

It might be relatively mediocre against the Hinchcliffe era, but I think it would have ended season 17 on a higher note than it ultimately did, and sat well with City of Death as well.


And don't even get me started on whichever twat decided that it was necessary to make a novel of Doctor Who And The Krikkitmen.

Only because James Goss was involved.  I'd like to see the script Adams sent to Paramount Pictures, just because it's a missing puzzle piece that was later adapted into parts of Hitchhiker's Guide and Shada.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 08, 2021, 12:55:21 PM
It's a shame that the Adams adaptations basically replaced the yearly Past Doctor story, because The Harvest of Time and The Drosten's Curse were both excellent[1]. There were Tenth and Eleventh Doctor books, too, outside the usual New Series Adventures range (stocked in the Sci-Fi section rather than the Young Adult section when I worked at Smiths), then we got the Shada novelisation. And then City of Death, The Pirate Planet and Krikkitmen, and then, most bizarrely, Scratchman, as it just seemed to turn into James Goss Adapts Fourth Doctor Stories. And then the line seems to have stopped all together.
 1. Second Doctor story The Wheel of Ice was fucking awful, mind.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on August 08, 2021, 01:01:32 PM
Imagine if other stories that only just got made, had in fact been abandoned part way through shooting. Would we have like seven different versions of say The Greatest Show in the Galaxy?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on August 08, 2021, 01:02:41 PM
It's a shame that the Adams adaptations basically replaced the yearly Past Doctor story, because The Harvest of Time and The Drosten's Curse were both excellent[1]. There were Tenth and Eleventh Doctor books, too, outside the usual New Series Adventures range (stocked in the Sci-Fi section rather than the Young Adult section when I worked at Smiths), then we got the Shada novelisation. And then City of Death, The Pirate Planet and Krikkitmen, and then, most bizarrely, Scratchman, as it just seemed to turn into James Goss Adapts Fourth Doctor Stories. And then the line seems to have stopped all together.
 1. Second Doctor story The Wheel of Ice was fucking awful, mind.

A L Kennedy writing a Doctor Who story!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on August 08, 2021, 01:03:19 PM
I’m amazed the Krikkitmen thing got as far as a script. It’s just such a twee idea.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 08, 2021, 01:14:01 PM
Imagine if other stories that only just got made, had in fact been abandoned part way through shooting. Would we have like seven different versions of say The Greatest Show in the Galaxy?

Yes, with Keff McCulloch providing highly unlikely music for a 1992 VHS release, before finally Mark Ayres's more appropriate score for a 2017 animated reconstruction.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on August 08, 2021, 01:16:49 PM
Well I've now obtained it, but if I don't enjoy it as per usual I will be fucking up everyone who recommended it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 08, 2021, 02:06:25 PM
We already suspected it was next in line to be animated along with Galaxy 4 but it sounds like Frazer Hines has let it slip that The Abominable Snowmen is on the way.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on August 08, 2021, 02:11:32 PM
Why haven't we had a novelisation of The Killer Cats of Geng-Singh[1]? Or did Big Finish snap that one up at some point?
 1. Or Ging-Sengh or whichever it actually is
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 08, 2021, 02:54:16 PM
Amazingly, it's not one of the 35 Lost Stories so far made by Big Finish.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on August 08, 2021, 03:28:20 PM
Amazingly, it's not one of the 35 Lost Stories so far made by Big Finish.

The bar to entry for that was hilariously low. A load of story pitches made by Barbara Clegg rejected by Saward? If those count as "lost stories" then so should every story idea pitched by a 13 year old that received a polite and encouraging rejection by form letter.

("The Elite" is actually very good, mind you.)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on August 09, 2021, 12:01:57 PM
The Roberts novel is perhaps the only extant version of Shada that is both coherent generally, and edited for effective storytelling. Plus the audiobook is read by Lalla Ward, with John Leeson playing K-9!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on August 09, 2021, 01:45:33 PM
Man, The Eight Doctors, what a dud. Sam has zero character there (I remember liking the Blum/Orman line from Vampire Science, though, where Sam thinks her personal hero prior to meeting the Doctor was Lisa Simpson. I thought that was a deft, fun encapsulation of her.) Can't actually remember whether I liked Vampire Science as a whole though, it didn't really leave a mark on me.

Let's see now... Boy, I missed tons of early EDAs, the only ones I remember were Kursaal (shocking verdict: not bad) and Alien Bodies (kickass), right up until The Scarlet Empress (probably my favourite early Magrs book, as I thought Verdigris was a bit excessively meta). Hey, I heard the John Peel Dalek books are really shit, good luck with that, purlieu!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 09, 2021, 02:07:02 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/7/74/NA061_thedyingdays.jpg)
Doctor Who and the Ice Warriors The Dying Days by Lance Parkin

"Helium," he called up the at the Ice Lord. "An inert gas. Harmless, especially to a Time Lord with a respiratory bypass system. And now I have the satisfaction of knowing that when you utter your last words, they'll be squeaky ones."

So, here it is, the final Doctor Who Virgin New Adventure. For reasons stated in my Eight Doctors review, it stands outside any really conventional continuity - in the authors notes on the version I got, Parkin suggests it might actually exist after the EDAs (which would also make sense for those going into the novel on the press surrounding it: it was advertised as the novel where the Doctor died for good). It's Eight and Benny (hurray) in London during an Ice Warrior occupation. They come down and take over the country with the help of some government ministers, and are met by human resistance and sent packing. The government and Martians both have plans to screw each other over. It's all very obvious and not very original, but it's delightfully done. The Doctor is recognisable as developed from the movie version, and Benny is on excellent form as ever. Brigadiers Lethbridge-Stewart and Bambera, in charge of UNIT's resistance, are similarly brilliantly written.

The Doctor, of course, doesn't die, and helps save the day. Benny kisses him at the end - she fancies this new incarnation (as does everyone else, apparently) - before starting her new life as a proper professor at a university. The Doctor toasts forthcoming "adventures of Professor Bernice Summerfield", in a nicely meta way (similarly, the in-universe nature of Who Killed Kennedy means it makes an appearance, with the publisher losing its license to publish more books. Very on the nose but strangely satisfying). The humour is pitched just right: very funny when present, but not overwhelming. All in all, it's not up there with the best NAs, but ends the series on a solid note. The contrast with The Eight Doctors couldn't be stronger.



Doctor Who: The Virgin New Adventures
And with that, I'm done. When I started my Doctor Who book marathon, over five years ago, I was mostly interested in reading the NAs and EDAs, because they kept the narrative going during the wilderness years. Being the sort of completist moron that I am, I then spent three years reading all the novelisations, MAs and PDAs to get the overall story. Anyway, I got here in the end, so I thought I'd look back over the series.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the best word to describe the quality would be 'variable'. The worst moments sink far, far lower than any televised stories - I'd take Time and the Rani over The Death of Art any day - but the best are among the best Doctor Who in any medium. There are some authors who fared better than others: Ben Aaronovitch, Paul Cornell, Kate Orman and Andy Lane provided some of the best, most imaginative and forward-thinking books in the series, with Mark Gatiss and Gareth Roberts punctuating with some nice trad stories; Jim Mortimore was unnecessarily relentlessly bleak, and many first-time authors threw far too much at their books, often resulting in an utter mess; Bulis's one entry was surprisingly above-par.

Character-wise, once the tone had settled down, the Doctor was generally well written. Despite the Cartmel Masterplan being discussed in relation to the NAs, it rarely reared its head, beyond the 'manipulating behind the scenes' aspect, which was sometimes overstated in some books. Often very funny, frequently written as 'dark', and usually struggling to properly relate to his companions, the NA version of the Seventh Doctor is probably the most 'alien' the character has ever been. Occasionally taken too far, especially in Doctor-light books like Warhead, it generally worked very well, offering a new but believable take on his character. As he grew closer to his impending regeneration, he softened, learned to became more emotional, and almost human - fittingly in time for the Eighth Doctor's more laid back style on its way. In terms of companions, Ace had a rough journey, from no-longer-innocent teenager to angrily leaving the Doctor, and then her return as the battle-hardened space mercenary generally referred to by fans as "New Ace". Although I didn't hate her as much as some fans, on the whole the angst level of her character was far too heavy going and tedious, which dragged down the Alternative History arc in particular. At times, her character in particular dragged the tone of the books down and made them a slog. In contrast, other than a few hasty additions to her first few books, Benny was superb, and I was glad that her departure was only really temporary, with her eventually appearing in 46 of the 61 books, making her the longest-lasting Who companion by this point. Chris and Roz never quite got the chance to make such a mark, with far fewer books to their name. Roz definitely had some nice development and her death was poignant; Chris, for the most part, just shagged his way around the universe, only really coming into his own in the final few books when he was dealing with the loss of Roz.

Aspects like Looms, Time's Champion, the appearances of Death, Time and Pain, and the Lovecraftian Old Ones were far, far less prevalent than I was expecting from what I'd read beforehand. They had background places in a handful of novels, but only really the Looms and Gallifreyan history had any full explanation, the rest being interesting background stuff. Enemy-wise, we had a couple of passing references to Daleks, but most of the other classics returned: the Cybermen got a decent tale in Iceberg; the Ice Warriors were used regularly and developed into a believable culture, portrayed as a complex and largely honourable race (helped by Benny being an expert on Martian culture); Silurians / Earth Reptiles / whatever they're being called this week were mostly seen as allies in the future: at some point they must have come out and made peace. Sontarans were just Sontarans.

One thing that Lance Parkin pointed out in the author's notes for The Dying Days, and something I'd spotted a while before, was that it was the first NA to be sent on contemporary Earth. There were a handful in the '80s and in the early 21st century, but it's the only book to actually be set in the 1990s. While the lack of budgetary restraints meant less of a reliance on modern settings, I was surprised at the near-lack of them, other than the occasional chapter. A significant amount of time was spent exploring the Earth Empire, its growth and near-collapse. This led to a lot of world-building which gave the NAs a very distinctive and recognisable feel and setting, richly developed over the course of the books. It meant there were maybe a few too many military-esque settings, but on the whole I tend to think it worked well. A lot of the world-building - and a huge number of particular ideas, character arcs and portrayals of the Doctor - would go on to influence the modern version of the series, and I'm surprised at just how many stories and ideas feel like they could have fit in a RTD or Moffat series.

In terms of quality, other than a particularly shoddy opening volume, the early Ace stories were generally quite strong. From her departure and, particularly her reappearance, the overall quality dropped dramatically, with a book more likely to be poor or average than good or excellent. The conclusion of the Alternate History arc saw a slight up-turn in quality, with some experimental novels following that weren't great but were at least memorably bold (the likes of Strange England and Falls the Shadow), but there were still a lot of mediocre stories right through to mid'-95 when the pace picked up immensely, starting with Human Nature. I don't know when Rebecca Levene took over as editor, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was around this point. Of the 24 books from Human Nature onwards, I rated 18 of them 4/5 or 5/5. The psi powers arc, although having a couple of stinkers in the middle, was a surprisingly strong run of books that felt like it had a new series style connectivity: individual plots that all tied together satisfyingly at the end.

The variable nature meant that my overall averages for each year don't vary all that much, but I've given them:
1991: 3.5/5
1992: 3.67/5
1993: 3.36/5
1994: 3.67/5
1995: 3.67/5
1996: 4/5
1997: 3.75/5

1993 the worst year, with a definite upswing towards the end. And finally, favourites and least favourite. The books I gave 5/5 to were:
Nightshade
Love and War
Iceberg
No Future
St Anthony's Fire
Human Nature
Toy Soldiers
Just War
Death and Diplomacy
Happy Endings
Return of the Living Dad
Damaged Goods
So Vile a Sin


The books I gave 2/5 to were:
The Pit
The Left-Handed Hummingbird
Theatre of War
First Frontier
Sanctuary
Christmas on a Rational Planet

And the 1/5s:
Cat's Cradle: Warhead
The Death of Art


Next time on Doctor Who... I begin the Benny New Adventures.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 09, 2021, 03:23:53 PM
I've really enjoyed reading your reviews, and I'm looking forward to what you make of the BNAs, only one of which I've read and Benny isn't in it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on August 09, 2021, 05:52:08 PM
The bar to entry for that was hilariously low.

Big Finish really working overtime to proving you wrong with their new announcement:
https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/iconic-doctor-who-the-lost-stories-uncovered
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on August 09, 2021, 07:09:36 PM
Big Finish really working overtime to proving you wrong with their new announcement:
https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/iconic-doctor-who-the-lost-stories-uncovered
Dramatisation of first drafts are now "lost stories"?? With extra bonus lack of two thirds of the lead cast!

Embarrassing.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 09, 2021, 07:36:37 PM
Quote
Doctor Who –The Lost Stories: Daleks! Genesis of Terror finds the same TARDIS team working directly from a PDF of Terry Nation's original script – complete with typos!

They are going to be reading out the typos??
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on August 09, 2021, 07:37:59 PM
Dramatisation of first drafts are now "lost stories"?? With extra bonus lack of two thirds of the lead cast!

Embarrassing.

Presumably their "Revenge of the Cybermen, only worse" sold exceptionally well.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 09, 2021, 07:50:53 PM
Yeah, they're the sort of things that would be fascinating to look over the scripts of, especially Genesis, but we really don't need full cast audio versions of them.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 09, 2021, 07:54:47 PM
I find it a bit depressing that Tom Baker's precious time is being spent on them instead of other projects.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: crankshaft on August 09, 2021, 07:56:57 PM
I find it a bit depressing that Tom Baker's precious time is being spent on them instead of other projects.

I find little of interest in anything he's done at Big Finish. Zero risks taken, just Nick Briggs churning 'em out. Returning monsters by the score, sequel after sequel...zzzzzzzzz.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on August 09, 2021, 08:03:37 PM
I find it a bit depressing that Tom Baker's precious time is being spent on them instead of other projects.

He seems to really love it though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 09, 2021, 08:12:39 PM
I find little of interest in anything he's done at Big Finish. Zero risks taken, just Nick Briggs churning 'em out. Returning monsters by the score, sequel after sequel...zzzzzzzzz.

The Phillip Hinchcliffe stuff is well worth a listen. That includes the Fourth Doctor lost stories box set. The Comic adaptions box set is great too.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 09, 2021, 09:51:23 PM
Yeah, I think he's just enjoying spending his twilight years being the Doctor again. Can't blame him really.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: olliebean on August 09, 2021, 10:12:03 PM
Dramatisation of first drafts are now "lost stories"?? With extra bonus lack of two thirds of the lead cast!

Embarrassing.

Can't be much worse than Chibnall's first drafts that have made it to screen.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on August 10, 2021, 09:26:58 AM
I really like the Dying Days, yes, it is obvious, yes, it does feature both Dan Dare and Francis Urquhart, but its a joy.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 09:38:43 AM
Can't be much worse than Chibnall's first drafts that have made it to screen.

Actually, they're guaranteed to be infinitely better.  I take back my projected criticisms of them.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 10, 2021, 07:38:38 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/8/8f/Oh_No_It_Isn%27t.jpg)
Bernice Summerfield and the Invasion of the Cat People Oh No It Isn't! by Paul Cornell

The Wicked Queen stood before her magic mirror, dark-nailed fingers raised high above her head, eyes blazing from beneath her cropped, dark hair. "Mirror, mirror, on the wall," she cried, "who is the fairest of them all?"
A lugubrious face swam into view in the mirror. "Michael Howard?" it suggested.


Given that he originally created Benny, it makes sense for Paul Cornell to start her own branch of the NAs. And although he'd written a few fairly unconventional stories at this point, nothing prepared me for this. The bulk of the story involved Benny waking up and finding herself in a land of pantomime. Several of her students, other crew of the ship she was on, and the ex-TARDIS cat Wolsey are also there, although Benny is the only one who knows something's wrong. The students are the seven dwarfs, Wolsey is a talking anthropomorphic cat, and Benny herself is Dick Wittington, or Cinderella, or Sleeping Beauty, or Snow White, or Aladdin, depending on what the scene requires.
It's all played to the most silly extremes. This is bar far the daftest, funniest Who-related book I've read to date. Any time a villain is present, he's soundtracked by boos and hisses. A quiet professer becomes the Dame, complete with fake breasts and spouting endless double entendres. Puns, thigh-slapping and calls of "he's behind you" and "oh no it isn't! / oh yes it is!" are in good supply. Musical numbers appear without warning (including one based on 'Common People'). When the audience get angry, they're placated by sweets. Benny eventually loses her temper when it's revealed the ultimate weapon is an A-bonbon (the 'A' standing for aniseed, of course). It could be too much, but it's all told with the right amount of knowingness, and enough disbelief from Benny, that is manages to work. It all turns out to be the result of a computer-generated life-pod from a dying race, described in a secondary plot which focuses largely on a new enemy called the Grel.

Character-wise, Benny is on fine form. Menlove Stokes, a hopeless artist and a Gareth Roberts character from his Fourth Doctor MAs, is present and offers some welcome grounded comedy. The remaining characters feel fairly one-dimensional so far, but on their first outing - and such an unconventional one - it's hard to expect too much. I'm sure there'll be time to get to know at least some of them in future books. The Grel are a very original enemy, a race in search of all information in the universe, but doing so by removing thoughts from people's heads, and killing them in the process. Their unconventional dialogue (starting everything with "Information:", "Fact:" or "Query:") makes them immediately memorable. I hope they don't turn up too often, though, as they could potentially become tiresome. The People from Ben Aaronovitch's The Also People make a brief appearance and set up what will no doubt be the impetus behind a lot of future stories.

Overall, a very brave story to start a new series, although I'm sure most readers were long-time NA readers, so maybe less so. Still, it's nice to know that books like this will be there to guide me through what looks to be a fairly fallow series of EDAs.

Next time on Doctor Who... more continuity nightmares, as I try and fit in the companion-free Eighth Doctor Telos novellas into the timeline before I get bogged down into the Sam era proper.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on August 10, 2021, 07:59:59 PM
It's refreshing to read your takes on Cornell's NA novels, purlieu. I seem to be in pretty much a sort of reverse-position to you regarding them: I love Revelation and Love & War, and obviously Human Nature is marvellous, but for me at least No Future, Happy Endings, and Oh No It Isn't! see him plummeting ever further into vapid and irksome self-indulgence. Okay, in the anniversary book it could be argued that that's appropriate, but as each book becomes more and more a catalogue of Paul trying to show us all how off-beat and cool and discerning his pop-cultural tastes are, I just get more and more bored and wish that he'd focus on giving us some pared-back stormers like his first two books for the range in particular.

That said, if you ever get to the BBC books, I wonder what you'll make of Shadows Of Avalon? Despite the presence of an appallingly camp and meta duo of evil Time Lords or Agents (I can't remember which), it marked something of a return to form for the man for me.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 10, 2021, 08:18:22 PM
Yeah, I can totally appreciate that. There's definitely a line to be crossed when it comes to self-aware and meta stuff, and it varies dramatically from person to person. I'm definitely a fan of this kind of book in general so I'm totally on board for more. Also trying to enjoy myself whilst eyeing the fact that there are Mortimore and Bulis books on the horizon.

I'm trying to read the NAs and EDAs in release order, and slot the occasional Telos one in where it seems to make most sense, so I've got four more before returning to the BBC ones, but I'll definitely be cracking on with them in the near future.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 10, 2021, 08:35:27 PM
In the audio version of Oh No It Isn't,  Wolsey is played by Nicholas Courtney
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on August 10, 2021, 10:09:05 PM
Their very first release, that one, back in 1998 - a whole year before they got the rights to use Doctor Who.

GOOD FACT!

I liked it so much, I ordered the whole Benny range (when they had them on sale) - something like 50 CDs all in one go!

ADDITIONAL FACT!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 10, 2021, 10:53:08 PM
In the audio version of Oh No It Isn't,  Wolsey is played by Nicholas Courtney
Oh, I can totally hear that!
Their very first release, that one, back in 1998 - a whole year before they got the rights to use Doctor Who.
Yes, it's going to be an interesting introduction to the Big Finish range, listening to stories I've already read (sometimes originally in Doctor Who format). Still, it must be done. I'm going to try and spread them out so I get to the first Eighth Doctor story (Storm Warning) after I finish reading The Gallifrey Chronicles (or maybe The Infinity Doctors, which I'm saving to last due to its ambiguity). If I keep my current rate of a book a day up that'll be at some point in November...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 11, 2021, 12:20:52 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/19/Rip_Tide_cover.jpg)
Rip Tide by Louise Cooper

Probably the longest Telos novella I've read, but still a swift read. An unexplained death and illness in a Cornish village, a body in the sea and a mysterious journalist. It's fairly typical Who fare, but it subverts it by being all about character: the threat is dispensed with easily, and the rescue of a stranded alien is the main focus. One-off companion Nina is a believable teenager: just bratty enough without being especially irritating. She and the Doctor work well together. A lot of the book is given over to creating a believable setting, and the village is portrayed wonderfully. And then it's all over. A lovely little book with a lot of heart.

Next time on Doctor Who... back to Benny.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 12, 2021, 10:42:10 PM
There's one on ebay now for a tenner.

Not any more there isn't. *wink*
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 13, 2021, 11:09:57 AM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/d/da/Dragons_Wrath.jpg)
Bernice Summerfield and the Space Museum Dragons' Wrath by Justin Richards

"There are two sides to everything, even death," Braxiatel said quietly. "The peaceful all embracing silence of the aftermath, and the gut-tearing agony of incision as the laserknife rips through the stomach, cauterizing as it goes so the scars seem like old trophies of survival rather than the trappings of murder."
Benny grimaced. "What a long sentence."


Ok, so dragons fall into a similar category as vampires for me: mythical beings I truly cannot be arsed with. So I was very happy to discover this book is about a statue of a dragon, rather than an actual fire-breathing lizard. Benny and some other archaeologists and historians from her university are invited to excavate a planet which could hold the key to a warlord's birthright and thus domination over a sector of space. But when they find a relic that ties his bloodline to a former empire, things aren't quite what they seem. Irving Braxiatel guest stars.
It's actually an unusually structured book, in that it feels more like a six part serial than a novel. There's a hint of a three-act structure, but it's disguised by numerous captures and escapes, episode-length side-jaunts, plenty of twists and turns and a generally unpredictable narrative thrust. There are plenty of mysteries that lead to more mysteries, and it's a real page-turner. A lot of the secrets are held by the mysterious Knights of Jeneve, originally a Geneva-based order of knowledge which has turned into a semi-mythical race of space-faring templars who not only underpin the story, but also led to the events of the first novel. Braxiatel suspects they're a lot shadier than we already expect, suggesting they'll be turning up in later books. Which is good, as I do enjoy serialised storytelling.
Characters are a mixed bunch: Webbe and Reddik are intriguing, ambiguous individuals who add a lot more to the plot than its central villain Nusek, who makes Ainley's Master seem subtle and calculating. The big downside is, surprisingly, Braxiatel. He's a very good character, but effectively a Doctor surrogate. There's more than a touch of Four and Seven in him, and he steals every scene he's in, but that's the problem: he's not the central character, yet he dominates, even doing most of the lifting with the plot itself. Benny, at times, feels like a secondary character.
On the whole, though, pretty good.

Next time on Doctor Who... another Telos novella.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 13, 2021, 09:02:06 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/b/bb/The_Eye_Of_The_Tiger.jpg)
The Eye of the Tyger by Survivor Paul McAuley.

There've been a couple of really good ones, but on the whole I think I could probably have done without the Telos novellas. They mostly tend to experiment, and maybe try and come across as 'proper' books rather than TV tie-ins, but that tends to result in stuff like this. I don't have a problem with Doctor-lite stories, but when there's no companion and so you're getting the story from a character you've never met, and one who is fairly forgettable and makes some bizarre decisions, it's just really tedious. A man absorbs some nanobots that start to turn him into a tiger-man-creature, the Doctor tries to save him but accidentally lands on a colony ship that's having a civil war, one that can only be saved by a lion-man-creature in a coma. It's all very, very dull.

Next time on Doctor Who... back to Benny. Again.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 16, 2021, 03:10:11 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/e/e0/Beyond_the_Sun.jpg)
Beyond the Sun by Matthew Jones

Beyond the Sun is a book about ideas, I suppose. It's about a society which has grown up without possessions, without the need or ability to sexually reproduce, with numerous species but no outsiders, living in complete equality with no official employment, no romantic relationships, no money, no concept of rules or crime. And it's only able to exist because it's a completely artificial society. What happens when a race of aliens comes to invade and occupy such a culture? What happens when Benny and two students - a shy, awkward boy firmly in the closet, and a cynical goth girl - come to the planet to rescue Benny's ex husband? What happens when these people discover that the occupying aliens are there to retrieve something stolen from them: the very thing that manufactured such a utopia? And what do these things have to say about freedom, and social structures, laws, love and sex?
It's all very interesting stuff, but my God I wish it was explored by means of a good story. There are brief moments of excitement where things seem to progress, something gets revealed, or we see the side-plot of this all apparently leading to a huge, galaxy-destroying weapon. But most of it is just exceptionally dull. Emile and Tameka are ok characters, but for the most part they can be summed up in the way I did above. They might flourish with more development and a different writer. The main characters go from one place to another to another to another in a sort of plodding quest that feels like it's come from the pen of Christopher Bulis. The aliens, the Sunless, are hopelessly underwritten and staggeringly unoriginal: they're super-strong humanoid who appear to have no emotions, enforce conformity and sleep in hive-like formations - I spent half the book waiting for the reveal that they were some offshoot of the Cybermen. And, basically, the book is really bleak. Very little of the wit and joy present in the previous two books is evident. Who on Earth thinks "A Bernice Summerfield book? Cool, I'll make it relentlessly bleak!" Still, the three main characters take a break in the middle to sing disco songs dressed as drag queens, so, that's... something. At the end of it, comparatively little is resolved. The characters kind of assume the occupying forces will probably leave and life on the planet will be different. The End. Hmm.
So yes, good ideas, but not very well executed.

Next time on Doctor Who... back to the EDAs at last!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on August 16, 2021, 03:56:42 PM
Bought this today. Decided to update my Troughton DVDs with their bluray releases as it looks like there won't be a bluray set for quite a while.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E865qNMXoAUHwZl?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on August 16, 2021, 04:22:54 PM
I went with the steelbook - though, for once, I think the regular edition got the better artwork!

Although the 'felt-tip on a balloon' heads and Thunderbirds arm movements look a bit wonky, I think, with a bit of tweaking, this motion capture method of animation has a lot of potential to get the 'problem' stories done without breaking the budget - so we may get the 1-6 season box sets a bit sooner than we thought.

Oddly, I thought the black and white 4x3 version worked better than the one in colour - probably as they applied a bit more grain to it, which disguised the CGI-ness of it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on August 16, 2021, 04:37:15 PM
I usually watch the b&w versions anyway, as that feels right. And obviously most of this serial will be monochrome anyway. Usually only watch the colour versions when I fancy a change.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 16, 2021, 05:47:25 PM
I thought the animation was fine. Has some advantages over the BBC America animations albeit a fair few more disadvantages too. With a bit of work, it will hopefully be good enough to tell a whole story. If they can work on the arm and general movement, the facial expressions and the detail on the hair then it could really be something good.

I would like to see them tackle The Crusade next as another test release and then perhaps The Underwater Menace. If they all work out then they can move on to the big problematic stories like The Highlanders, Marco Polo or The Daleks' Master Plan whilst the two BBC America teams manage one a year each.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on August 16, 2021, 06:01:20 PM
I don't mind if they leave it till last, but I hope they get The Myth Makers done at some point - it really deserves a wider audience. Like The Romans it's a proper funny one - and they could really go to town with the Trojan horse!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 16, 2021, 06:08:19 PM
The short Web interview on the animation talks about how it is a test for a new style of animation which will open up the possibility of all stories being done (and pictures of Marco Polo, The Crusades and The Daleks' Master Plan appear on the screen while saying this). It definitely feels like all of them will get done over the next few years now.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 17, 2021, 09:44:42 AM
I thought the animation was fine. Has some advantages over the BBC America animations albeit a fair few more disadvantages too. With a bit of work, it will hopefully be good enough to tell a whole story. If they can work on the arm and general movement, the facial expressions and the detail on the hair then it could really be something good.

Why didn’t they consider making it good in the first place?

This is the double-dip release of this story.  The special edition one, 8 years after the bare bones release.  Yes it’s testing a new animation method, but it’s also most likely the last release of this story until they find the real version of episode 3.


I’m incredibly forgiving of all the animated releases, but there are many times I think could you please just include your work-in-progress version as a bonus feature, and actually create a finished version within the time you’ve got.


Best animated episodes are still the ones for The Invasion done by Cosgrove Hall.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on August 17, 2021, 09:56:06 AM

Best animated episodes are still the ones for The Invasion done by Cosgrove Hall.

Yeah it's a shame they didn't do more.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on August 17, 2021, 12:24:06 PM
Too expensive I think. I seem to remember it only got made in the first place thanks to some spare money that wasn't used on another Doctor Who project.

Hang on, let me google it . . . Here we go -

Quote
the animation had been paid for by an earlier surplus in the Doctor Who website budget, allowing it to be used in the DVD release as a test for the concept, at no extra cost. Despite the DVD's success, the sales were not high enough to offset the animation cost for any future collaboration.
https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Animated_episode

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 17, 2021, 03:02:13 PM
Well then have more surpluses next time
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on August 17, 2021, 07:25:17 PM
Quote from: Midas (Left side of the brain)
Quote from: Midas (Right side of the brain)
Quote from: Midas (Left side of the brain)
Quote from: Midas (Right side of the brain)
Quote from: Midas (Left side of the brain)
Quote from: Midas (Right side of the brain)
Quote from: Midas (Left side of the brain)
Quote from: Midas (Right side of the brain)
You could build mountains out of all the branded tat BBC Worldwide has sold over the years, surely at this point they've rinsed enough money out of their viewers to be able to endure a couple of minor losses? Why won't the BBC try commissioning one of the bigger animations for TV broadcast? It would be a bit niche, but what's the point of the BBC if they basically operate like any other commercial entity? Why not offset the cost by reinvesting the salary they pay Gregg Wallace, to produce something that isn't awful?

Erm, actually I think you'll find BBC Worldwide is now called BBC Studios, idiot!

Not interested.

And furthermore, when you examine serials like The Crusade and The Highlanders finely, you'll see that many of these stories are actually impossible to animate. Studio Ghibli wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole, probably, but they don't need to worry 'cos they've shut down. You know nothing!

There's nowt inherently "impossible" about drawing or animating many different costumes or locations really, it just makes it difficult to cut corners, which all the animations produced so far have had to exploit because none of them have been given the time or money they need.

But the tartan! The TARTAN!

Mate, I could draw tartan with my eyes shut. Just a load of lines. Why must everything be so cheap and shoddy? The programme's one of the BBC's biggest money-makers.

Answered your own question, mate.

I did like the one by Cosgrove Hall though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 17, 2021, 10:06:26 PM
I liked The Moonbase animation the most.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on August 17, 2021, 11:04:04 PM
Funnily enough, that's the only bit of Classic Who my Matt Smith-obsessed nephew has watched (a couple of years ago) - and that's only because it was animated. He had zero interest in sticking around for the live action stuff, but loved the "cartoon"!


Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on August 18, 2021, 03:16:48 AM
Funnily enough, that's the only bit of Classic Who my Matt Smith-obsessed nephew has watched (a couple of years ago) - and that's only because it was animated. He had zero interest in sticking around for the live action stuff, but loved the "cartoon"!

That makes me unjustifiably angry 😡
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on August 18, 2021, 06:23:29 AM
I thought the animation was fine. Has some advantages over the BBC America animations albeit a fair few more disadvantages too. With a bit of work, it will hopefully be good enough to tell a whole story. If they can work on the arm and general movement, the facial expressions and the detail on the hair then it could really be something good.

I would like to see them tackle The Crusade next as another test release and then perhaps The Underwater Menace. If they all work out then they can move on to the big problematic stories like The Highlanders, Marco Polo or The Daleks' Master Plan whilst the two BBC America teams manage one a year each.

almost 100% sure there are no "BBC America teams" btw
 
 

(also the Cosgrove Hall "team" had like 40 decades of experience and a professional budget vs literally none (or either) for most of the subsequent adaptations, and still couldn't manage to get the costumes right.)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 18, 2021, 12:39:34 PM
almost 100% sure there are no "BBC America teams" btw
 


Power was part funded by BBC America. Shada, Macra, Faceless Ones, Fury and Evil of the Daleks are all majority funded by BBC America. This is the reason they animate in full colour and widescreen including any existing episodes. BBC America fund it to broadcast in America. The DVD budget only covers a maximum of two episodes being animated.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 18, 2021, 02:09:24 PM
Power was part funded by BBC America. Shada, Macra, Faceless Ones, Fury and Evil of the Daleks are all majority funded by BBC America. This is the reason they animate in full colour and widescreen including any existing episodes. BBC America fund it to broadcast in America. The DVD budget only covers a maximum of two episodes being animated.

Citation needed.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 18, 2021, 03:48:59 PM
Citation needed.

Here are some posts I could find quickly from Charles Norton (Power director) and Richard Bignell (member of the Restoration Team) which talk about BBC America's involvement. As Richard Bignell says, they provide the vast majority of the budget.

(https://i.imgur.com/HBzmwIA.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Kzq504u.png)

I'll see if I can find more posts with more detail on GB by people who work on the range a little later. They have gone into detail more when they have been on stage at conventions, but I can't be bothered going back and finding the videos.

Power was originally made without BBC America but then they entered late in the day and wanted a colour version (hence the colourised version which was only ever broadcast on BBC America and released in the very limited steelbook Blu-Ray). Everything else from that point on has had additional funding provided for by BBC America so they could screen it over there.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 18, 2021, 03:52:28 PM
Fair enough. Interesting that BBC America is calling the shots, suggesting that new Doctor Who product is being largely made for export.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 18, 2021, 03:58:32 PM
I wonder if it is being spearheaded by fans with just a few demands from BBC America (widescreen, colour and do all the episodes). Outside of those, they seem to have creative freedom.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on August 18, 2021, 04:34:56 PM
majority funded by BBC America.

Yes but it's still Norton's ragtag group of amateurs, or other ad-hoc assemblages of aspirational animators, who are doing the work.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 18, 2021, 04:45:06 PM
Yes but it's still Norton's ragtag group of amateurs, or other ad-hoc assemblages of aspirational animators, who are doing the work.

Largely funded by BBC America. It is semantics. When I referred to the BBC America teams, I was referring to the teams funded by BBC America as a way of differentiating between the productions which are funded by them and those which aren't.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on August 18, 2021, 04:54:12 PM
BBC Studios owns a controlling stake in BBC America - they co-produce numerous programmes for the BBC.[1] I think there have been instances where BBC Studios have sold the IP for programmes to BBC America who then sell the produced programme back to the BBC. Suspect it's all just a cash-fiddle.
 1. including the main Doctor Who series
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on August 18, 2021, 05:36:49 PM
Also that stuff Norton says about the animations being 21st century productions for 21st century audiences sounds a bit dubious to me.

I get what he means to a degree but, in a broader sense, there's no escaping the fact that the dialogue, the music, the sound effects and all the intricacies of the writing and production are a product of the 1960's and it's a far cry to call them "21st century productions", especially when the disconnect (https://youtu.be/Zd9e-BpJ1T4?t=52) between the soundtrack and the visuals is as noticeable as it has been in many of the more recent offerings.

If the intent isn't to reconstruct the original serials (for the most part), why keep the original soundtrack at all? What is the intent of the animations?

I guess we'll never know because I'm arguing with a screenshot.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 18, 2021, 05:48:02 PM
I've still only managed to watch The Invasion, animation-wise. Decided I'll just wait for the BluRay box sets, there are already some stories I've triple-dipped on (Weng-Chiang, Arc in Space) and I've got enough Who to keep me going in the meantime.

Speaking of which...

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/16/Vampire_science_cover.jpg)
Vampire Science by Jonathan Blum and Hate Kate Orman

The Eighth Doctor is getting off to a very bumpy start. The movie wasn't great, the novelisation did little to improve it, and then the first of the EDAs was appalling. Sam was introduced in such a half-arsed way that the main thing I was hoping to get from this book was getting to know her and how she's introduced to life aboard the TARDIS.
And it turns out this is two years after The Eight Doctors. They've been travelling together that long, meaning they're a comfortable team referring back to adventures they've previously had. I had to stop and check this was actually the right book in the right place a couple of times. In this time, the Doctor also disappeared for a whole year (his time; he arrived back just after he'd left), which is a nice bit of continuity to allow The Dying Days to properly exist (as well as those Telos novellas), but it does mean that basically the Eighth Doctor has been around for three years now, and this is only the second book in the EDA line. Why?! It just feels so utterly awkward and difficult to settle into. It doesn't help that Sam is utterly obnoxious. She's got elements of Rose and Clara at their worst: arrogant, unpleasantly self-assured, smug, only with added "look I'm all PC!" elements. Her seemingly random rants about her own worldview are so unsubtle they could have come from a Chibnall episode. And then she's barely in the second half of the book at all.

What else? Oh, yes.
Ok, so dragons fall into a similar category as vampires for me: mythical beings I truly cannot be arsed with.
Vampires are fucking boring. Even in a story which has a prominent 'good' vampire, trying to find a food substitute so they don't have to go around killing people, there's so little there to hold my interest. They've got fangs, they go out at night and drink blood, they turn other people into vampires. The whole Gallifreyan wars with vampires gave the subject some vaguely intriguing sci-fi edge, but there's none of that here, just a bunch of blood sucking idiots and a couple of blood sucking reasonable characters. The idea of them growing more apathetic as they age was intriguing, and could have lead to a more interesting novel.

It's my first experience of Jonathan Blum, but Kate Orman is usually good quality, and the writing here was snappy and fun. The Doctor was utterly convincing from the start, which was at least refreshing. I could imagine McGann performing almost every line, although a couple were McCoy-ish. On top of the Dying Days continuity, the writers also managed to throw in references to NAs The Also People and SLEEPY, managing to un-press that big EDA reset button already, which I appreciated.

Not exactly a bad book, but disappointing, given Orman's general high quality, and definitely not one for me.

And that cover. Christ, the BBC books have mostly terrible covers, but what is that about? "Look it's set in America and there are bats in it." (The only bats are a couple that live in the TARDIS library.) The artist must have read the blurb and designed it based on that. And the font really does make it look like it says Hate Orman.


Next time on Doctor Who... The Bluetones.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Poison To The Mind on August 19, 2021, 03:50:34 PM
re the Norton quote: Consider the audience - he's not saying "these things cobbled together by myself and a few other English BBC staffers and freelancers with no animation experience are absolutely up there with the greatest modern tellycartooning has to offer!", he's trying to explain to some of the most "if all you have is a hammer" TV viewers in the history of the world that they're trying to make something slightly less boring than an assemblage of still photos of 1960s actors with new hats and beards photoshopped on.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 20, 2021, 04:56:58 PM
I've updated my big long list of all Who and Who-related audios - now 17 pages of triple columns, for those who might want it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 22, 2021, 05:15:39 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/3/3d/Body_snatchers_cover.jpg)
The Bodysnatchers by Mark Morris

Lifefoot peered dubiously into the tunnel, sniffed, then pulled a face. "Incredible as these cases always turn out to be, Doctor, why is it that somewhere along the way there is invariably a sewer pipe involved?"

"We're just lucky, I suppose," said the Doctor solemnly, then stepped up and heaved himself into the pipe.


Having an ebook version, I didn't actually spot that it was a Zygon on the cover, and as I never read blurbs, I at least got a surprise from it.
The first half of The Bodysnatchers is excellent, full of vivid descriptions of Victorian London in all its squalor. A compassionate factory owner has turned into a cunt, being rude to his wife and daughter and sacking a worker who has an accident; two ne'er do wells find themselves grave robbing for a mysterious man who pays them for cadavers; strange creatures are witnessed through the pea soup fog of the industrial city. The Doctor and Sam stumble across a body and find themselves involved in a police investigation. Needing a home address, the Doctor realises that George Litefoot would be a respectable - and understanding - person to be stopping with. Eventually, the Doctor, Sam, Litefoot and the aforementioned daughter, Emmeline, find themselves descending into a living structure, not knowing whether they'll find a ship or a stomach at the bottom.
So far, so good. In fact, the first half of the book had me gripped. It's not without its flaws - despite being an established horror author, Morris's prose has a touch of the Terrence Dicks Target Novelisation about it (possibly at the editor's request), fitting with the slightly limp feel of the EDAs so far - but I felt I was onto a winner here. And then, at the exact moment it's revealed the Zygons are involved, the whole thing falls apart. It immediately turns into 'scupper the Zygons' plans, rescue the captured people, remove the Skarasen threat'. Most of the excellent atmosphere and character stuff is lost in favour of a seen-it-a-hundred-times-before runaround. The twist that the Doctor accidentally wipes the whole Zygon colony out with what he thought would be a harmless tranquilliser is pretty good, and highlights the difference between this version of the character and his previous incarnation - but on the whole it's half a book of bleh.
Still, the first half would be enough to give it a high score were it not for Sam. The Doctor isn't brilliantly characterised, but it's possible to imagine McGann performing the role; Litefoot is a pleasant throwback with some good lines; most of the the other characters are fine, if lacking depth. But Sam drags any fun out of the story. She spends half of the book worrying that she's not impressing the Doctor enough, and the rest of the book unconscious or away from the action. She actually contributes nothing to the story whatsoever: Emmeline and Litefoot fill the companion roles betterm, while Sam just follows the Doctor around and makes sarcastic remarks.
So yeah, some great stuff, totally underdeveloped.

Next time on Doctor Who... Dave Stone's first Benny novel. I'm expecting a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on August 22, 2021, 09:35:13 PM
I think I like the fake-out-not-fake-out with Emmeline most. They're Zygons. They shapeshift.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on August 22, 2021, 09:40:47 PM
Well the covers have improved at least
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 22, 2021, 10:16:05 PM
I like seeing the italicised BBC font.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 22, 2021, 10:38:54 PM
It's ludicrous to think that the current BBC logo has been around for, what, 23, 24 years?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on August 22, 2021, 10:42:41 PM
They've changed it recently. (https://www.creativebloq.com/news/bbc-logo-controversy) Not sure if the new logo is being used yet though. Just checked the Web of Fear case and that is still the old logo.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on August 23, 2021, 11:23:49 AM
That's the first time I've learned that using an existing font in a logo requires ongoing costs to be paid to that font owner.  It makes sense but it makes it quite baffling that bespoke lettering isn't used in logo designs more often.

The fact that the letters 'BBC' in square blocks required usage of a pre-existing font that needed to be licensed is incredible to me, really.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 24, 2021, 03:26:38 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/4/45/Ship_of_Fools.jpg)
Ship of Fools by Dave Stone.

She smiled coldly. "I expect you've spent your life looking for some sign of him, any clue, any shred of evidence; waiting for the slightest chance to hunt him down."
"Yes," said Groke, in a barely perceptible undertone.
Benny became brisk. "Well, I'm afraid, I have a bit of bad news for you, Mr Groke, because the whole thing's been complete and utter bollocks, from start to finish."


Benny does a murder mystery, written by Dave Stone. Ostensibly an Agatha Christie pastiche piss-take, Benny finds herself on a luxury space liner where people are being bumped off, and things are being stolen by famed burglar the Cat's Paw. She's joined by a number of other Master Detectives, including a Poirot-a-like who gets literally everything wrong, a Marple-a-like whose telepathic powers cause everyone around her to commit murders (hence her always being in the right place at the right time), and a Charlie Chan-esque alien whose culture background leads to him insulting everyone every time he speaks, as well as the token Lestrade surrogate, and a bunch of useless coppers. Along the way, various obnoxious rich people are murdered in increasingly ludicrous ways - exploding wine, ejected out of the ship through the toilet, brain fried by sonic disco equipment - and, bizarrely, one of the detectives is shown to have a past life chasing the villainous Doctor Po around Victorian 1930s England before he has chance to unleash a disgusting book about sex on the likes of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor.
The reason I enjoyed this a lot more than Sky Pirates! comes down to the mix of real world and absurdity: it's reality taken to its most ridiculous extremes, with daft coincidences and other similar Adamsian stuff, but it's still all happening on a spaceship with real (and occasionally likeable) characters, unlike Sky Pirates!, which I found totally impenetrable due to it taking place in a self-sustaining system where everything works like this. Ultimately, it comes together well because of three things: a) a genuinely good mystery plot at heart, b) solid characterisation, especially Benny, who's at her best here, and c) it's mostly utterly hilarious. Ok, so Stone sometimes throws in a few too many "random items" sex jokes, but I'd say nine out of ten times his gags work, and the book's packed full of them.
Lovely stuff, my favourite Benny so far.

Next time on Doctor Who... an EDA with a title that suggests jollity and laughs all round.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on August 24, 2021, 04:08:25 PM
Wish Big Finish had recorded that one - it sounds great!

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 27, 2021, 06:25:09 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/11/Genocide_cover.jpg)
Genocide by Paul Leonard.

State of that fucking cover. Yeah, some of the drawings of McCoy looked very much not like McCoy, but the NA covers generally had some creativity put into them. The BBC books have such a that’ll do attitude, and never more than here.
It’s basically Invasion of the Dinosaurs but What if it Was Aliens Behind it and They Succeeded? The Doctor and Sam arrive on Earth, only it’s inhabited by horse-like aliens called Tractites who have gone back in time and stopped humanity from evolving, and thus stopped the Earth Empire from invading their planet in the future. A crazed eco-activist from the present day helps. It’s all done with far more balance and ambiguity than ...Dinosaurs, though, as not only do we get an idea of the devastation done to Tractis, but also the Tractites are shown as being able to look after our planet and keep a good balance with nature. Sam ponders whether it would be right to try and revert things to their original state in what is almost some character development for the first time. So far so good. There’s some stuff with cavemen that’s more than a touch like An Unearthly Child. It falls apart a little by the totally pointless inclusion of Jo Grant - the majority of the 70s and 80s companions have been brought back by now - and a rather convenient plot device - the Tractites’ time machine being crap and their changes resulting in the end of the multiverse - which pretty much removes the Doctor from having to consider the right path to take.
Still, a solid story without any plodding nonsense. The best EDA so far.

Next time on Doctor Who... Benny again, hurray!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on August 27, 2021, 06:52:16 PM
Heh, the BBC Books covers did improve a bit later on but I'd forgotten how shoddy the early designs were. The repetitive circular motif used across all the early EDA covers doesn't do them any favours either imo.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 29, 2021, 08:11:56 PM
Yes, these first few in particular feel really samey, which isn't helping given that no stories so far have been dramatically memorable.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on August 29, 2021, 08:43:24 PM
Yes, there's going to be a lot of those unmemorable by-the-numbers efforts as we progress through the EDAs, unfortunately.

On the subject of OrmanBlum, their next novel could be read as an attempt to "fix" some of the issues with Sam, I'll leave it up to you to decide how successful they were. Personally I always felt their books written together felt overstuffed, like they could've done with cutting fifty or so pages from each. Unnatural History was the best of them to my mind.

Come to think of it, Alien Bodies has an interesting take on Sam as well although I'm not sure how canonical it was considered outside of Lawrence Miles's head.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on August 31, 2021, 06:07:22 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/f/f3/Down.jpg)
Down by Lawrence Miles

"That's right," said Bernice, encouragingly. She hoped the Gug wouldn't feel patronised. "Friends. Be friends."
"Gug. Gug gug gug."
"Yes. Friends."
"Gug. Gug gug gug gug. Gug-gug. Gug. We'll be back after this short break. Gug."
Bernice's jaw dropped open.


I last met Lawrence Miles on the really quite clever but also really quite tedious headfuck of Christmas on a Rational Planet. For the most part, this book is the opposite, having what seems like a straight-forward plot and relatable characters. Benny and two students end up on a planet looking for information about a long-lost historian, who claimed to have found another world inside this one. The Inner World is found and happens to be shaped like a Dyson Sphere, and, uncoincidentally, the People are involved, on a secret mission from God. On the way, they meet a comic book character called Mr. Misnomer, a group of hapless Nazis fighting for the SSSSSSS led by Kommander Katastrophen, lots of ape people, some dinosaurs, and a reptilian flying machine.
The tone is very meta and very silly and I loved it. Tons of absurd humour on every page, but also continually evolving mysteries, some excellent characterisation (Ash and Lucretia both ticked the companion box; Mr. Misnomer and Katastrophen provided cynicism and humour), a number of great set pieces. And then, as it all came to a climax, I noticed I still had about a fifth of the book left, and Miles turned the entire book on its head. It isn't a Dave Stone book, where the daft and the unbelievable exist because Dave Stone, but every over-the-top, self-aware archetype in Down is like that for a reason. I can't say I understood it all 100%, but it was a great way to close the book, and one that felt like there was still a lot to come in future books. Very good.

Next time on Doctor Who... how will Gary Russell write a novel without being able to fill it with Who fanwank?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 02, 2021, 06:47:36 PM
Season 17 and Galaxy 4 listed on a Swiss DVD website with dates before the end of the year. Would be a surprise if they both come out so soon but nice to know they are on the way.

Episodic Shada please.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on September 02, 2021, 06:53:38 PM
HD Mandrels. It's the dream.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 02, 2021, 09:34:12 PM
Wonder how many versions of Shada will be on it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 02, 2021, 10:18:34 PM
VHS Version
2017 Animation
New Episodic Version

The flash version can be saved for the Wilderness Years set.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 02, 2021, 10:53:10 PM
As long as the Ian Levine version is left off, the set won't feel horribly contaminated.


The flash version was included on the earlier DVD release of the VHS version, and it's a shame it was left off the newer animated DVD.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on September 02, 2021, 11:02:36 PM
The flash version was included on the earlier DVD release of the VHS version, and it's a shame it was left off the newer animated DVD.

They put it on the bonus third disc of the blu-ray steelbook. Proper version you could watch on your telly too!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 03, 2021, 01:50:47 AM
Yeah. That and Power were the only steelbooks that had exclusive content so I stuck with the standard after that. Glad I got the Power steelbook as it is likely to be the only way to commercially own the colour version.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 03, 2021, 11:38:16 AM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/9/95/Deadfall.jpg)
Jason Kane and the Sexy Prisoners Deadfall by Gary Russell

Well, there were a fair few New Adventures back-references in there, as well as a nod to The Mind of Evil, so Gary got his fanwank in after all.

I don't mind a Doctor-lite Doctor Who novel - after all, the companions are of just as much importance - but a Benny-lite Benny novel? I'm not so sure. Possibly because I don't like Jason Kane quite enough for him to take the lead. He's decent enough, but I'm not invested in his character enough, nor does he have enough quirks, for me to be really excited by what's going on. Still, if you're going to do a fairly humour-free Benny book, removing Benny for the bulk of the plot probably helps. The lack of humour isn't the only thing that ties this to Beyond the Sun, as it also features a return of hapless student Emile, who generally spends his time getting in the way and messing things up, in the way Jason did in Eternity Weeps. Jason, here, is much more competent, which doesn't help: his character changes dramatically depending on what the particular book needs him to do. Another similarity with Beyond the Sun is the ludicrous Cybermen influence. The opening chapters of this book have a crew of scientists landing on a mysterious new tenth planet in a solar system, to a very brief retelling of Tomb... (complete with electrified doors and two of them actually being there for a very different reason). Of course, there are no Cybermen involved - I'm not expecting any TV Who monsters to appear in these books - but it went beyond homage into... well, fanwank. Throw in Russell's usual clunky dialogue that it's hard to imagine anyone actually speaking, and this book has hurdles.
Which is a shame, as it's quite a decent, fast-paced action story otherwise. Very pulpy, with some bitchy female space prisoners, an ex-colonialist military leader reminiscing on the days he could just subjugate "Johnny Native", an evil computer, a secret robot in the crew, and a mind-controlling artificial intelligence set on spreading through the galaxy, but in the hands of a better writer it could have been a really fun book. It expands heavily on the Knights of Jeneve story from Dragons' Wrath, and gives some background to what Jason's been up to, which is all a bonus as the ongoing arcs in the background of the Benny books have been intriguing so far.
And, of course, Chris bloody Cwej returns! He doesn't manage to do much here, suffering from amnesia (he's got a bit of Eighth Doctor Syndrome, evidently), but it's nice to have him back, and the book ends with him stopping with Benny and Irving on Dellah. I wasn't expecting these books to be quite so ensemble-based, but on the whole I'm glad he's here.
So yeah, good ideas, not so well executed.

Next time on Doctor Who... Daleks!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on September 04, 2021, 01:40:34 AM
Ah, so we've got John Peel's first 8th Doctor epic next! I'll be interested to see what you make of it. I recall that when it first appeared it had a lot of outraged fanboys spitting blood over the non-destruction of Skaro and the whole Movellan explanation and declaring Peel the Anti-Christ, but I thought that it was an enjoyable if convoluted romp with some nice ideas.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 04, 2021, 07:17:20 AM
John Peel - like the proper John Peel?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on September 04, 2021, 07:42:29 AM
No, it's not the DJ (I did wonder that too!)

This is he (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peel_(writer)) :

(https://i.imgur.com/Qhjen9D.jpg)

In his defence, Peel is his real surname, unlike the DJ, which was Ravenscroft.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on September 04, 2021, 12:59:44 PM
I always thought the Doctor Who writer John Peel was American, but you seem to have posted a photo of a farmer from Norfolk.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 04, 2021, 01:03:18 PM
Just below his nipples it’s just Wellington boots right down to the floor.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 04, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
I always thought the Doctor Who writer John Peel was American, but you seem to have posted a photo of a farmer from Norfolk

Well he certainly gave us a few turkeys, arf
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: OnlyRegisteredSoICanRead on September 04, 2021, 05:10:38 PM


I last met Lawrence Miles on the really quite clever but also really quite tedious headfuck of Christmas on a Rational Planet.

You probably already know, but his blog was a wonder of, something, http://beasthouse-lm2.blogspot.com

As far as I know he's given up on the Doctor Who business now.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 04, 2021, 07:13:47 PM
Don't know whether these misguided ramblings are better in the current Who thread but I think they are best here...

I ordered Twice Upon a Time on 4K yesterday as it was only a fiver (it may get cancelled as it is a ludicrously good price). I still haven't seen vast swathes of the Moffat era. I adored Series 5 but Series 6 was a slog and I gave up on Series 7 and Series 8 was even worse when I gave it a chance. I figured that I would one day watch the whole thing in a big clump to give it the same treatment I did to the rest of Classic Who. I always hear Series 9 and 10 are an improvement, and I liked the 50th. So I figure now is the time to watch the whole Moffat era in a row.

When The Eleventh Hour originally aired, I have never been further away from being a Who fan as I was then. Back then I watched New Doctor Who out of a silly misplaced sense of obligation. The End of Time killed any hope or enthusiasm I had for Doctor Who outside of the first 8 Doctors stone dead. It wasn't just that it was a huge pile of shit but it was a high profile one. Suddenly, everybody who knows I am a Doctor Who fan thinks I enjoy that. I was embarrassed to be associated with it. Maybe I am being melodramatic, but it was like somebody was spreading a malicious rumour saying I was well into Derek and Mrs Brown's Boys.

I never particularly chimed with the first four series of New Who. Something about them always felt off, but I have little enthusiasm now to go back and get to the nub of the matter of what it was. Despite thinking Series 4 was mostly rather good, it still had whatever it was to it that was off-putting. Like how I quite like Delta and the Bannermen despite thinking Season 24 is rubbish. The music plays a part but I know it wasn't just that. There was a tacky element to it but lots of my favourite Classic Who has that. Maybe it is a bit like how your grandad being racist isn't too bad but a young co-worker is.

It was only the fact that the show was being refreshed and taking a new direction that I decided to watch Series 5. The Eleventh Hour fixes so much that I never knew was even wrong with the show. I still think the music is overly loud and garish but it is an improvement. The lighting feels more natural and less warm which removes the garish look of some of the previous four series. It wasn't that it was an amazing episode or anything, it just did exactly what it needed to in order to win viewers over.

The show feels more assured in what it can achieve. It isn't trying to tell some big budget Hollywood story and cramming in crap CGI. Doctor Who is now achieving the level of a moderately budgeted British sci-fi film and it's excelling as a result of it. They know what they can and can't achieve. They manage something the scale of Attack the Block and surpass it and an eighth of the budget.

Matt Smith's style of Doctor would never be my choice particularly after Tennant however he delivers such an earnest and enthusiastic performance that it barely took a scene to win me over. The only difficulty is separating how much of his wackiness is part of post-regenerative weirdness and how much is just his Doctor. I feel like it is toned down as the series goes on and he mellows a little bit whereas Series 6 and 7 ramp up the wackiness and it starts to grate. It will be interesting to see if this was a misplaced perception I had at the time.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 04, 2021, 07:56:25 PM
The Beast Below or Doctor Who and the Culture War of Death as it would have been if it aired 10 years later.

Just imagine if this aired today. A non-white Queen would see the show plastered on the front pages. The BBC would be forced to apologise and Doctor Who would be at the centre of a hilarious pantomime. I can just see the news with being brought in to ask if Doctor Who is "too woke" and telling the audience what the Queen would think about it. We have gone backwards as a nation. Besides that you also have Scotland splitting from the UK and also the UK leaving and being on their own. And on that note the UK also commits horrendous torture through sheer bloody thoughtless misplaced ignorance and cruelty.

The episode isn't all that great but it sticks the landing in a big way. The ending is touching and gives Amy the opportunity to see something The Doctor doesn't without making her seem arrogant or unlikeable. It feels satisfying in solving a seemingly impossible problem for The Doctor. We also see Moffat come up with the idea of The Doctor removing his name when he feels he has to commit an action that not befitting of it.

It does enough to continue the enthusiasm from The Eleventh Hour. In fact there is only one story in Series 5 that zaps my enthusiasm and that is...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 04, 2021, 08:39:48 PM
...not Victory of the Daleks. It isn't anything special but it is basically fine. It doesn't actually really feel like a story in and of itself. It feels like it is setting up a story which never occurs. This is Frontier in Space without Planet of the Daleks.

It has a different feel now that I know how much of an absolute tosser that Churchill was. But I guess the Churchill in Doctor Who is the legend rather than the man himself so I should look past it. I won't be buying the fucking Big Finish though.

Much like The Beast Below it has an interesting new twist all these years on. The Daleks were a parable for the Nazis and now we see a Dalek with a Union Jack on it being proudly portrayed as our saviour and championed by an archaic myth from our past. Such a shame none of these themes are actually intentional. They actually just wanted to do The Power of the Daleks with Churchill.

The Poundland Independence Day ending is a little embarrassing, but brief enough to not impact too much. They seemingly threw enough money at the effects for this one to make it work well enough in all but the writing.

Neither like nor dislike the new Dalek design. Not sure what led to the big uproar at the time other than it did seem a bit cynical to sell toys. If I'm honest, I think the green Dalek would have sold more toys on their own as they are a lovely re-colour.

I feel like Series 5 is the opposite to Series 4 right now. Series 4 had broadly strong stories but with a style that I just didn't chime with. Series 5 has weaker stories but a style much more to my liking which means even the weaker episodes feel so much stronger.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 04, 2021, 09:28:26 PM
You probably already know, but his blog was a wonder of, something, http://beasthouse-lm2.blogspot.com

As far as I know he's given up on the Doctor Who business now.
Oh lovely, ta. That looks like a lot of fun.
Don't know whether these misguided ramblings are better in the current Who thread but I think they are best here...
Nah, you'll be wanting the RTD & Moffat Years (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,86814.0.html) thread.
We do have rather a lot of Doctor Who threads here, don't we? How soon before we can legitimately start pestering Neil for a subforum?

I'm very much with you on the huge leap the show took with The Eleventh Hour. There are plenty of RTD-era stories I like, but overall the show felt like something I'd be slightly embarrassed to be found watching. It's still something that I've watched because it's Doctor Who rather than something I've watched because I was invested in the show - if it was a new programme I would have probably been pretty sneery about it. Whereas series 5, in particular, I love. 6 is almost as good, and 7 has grown on me over the years. 8 and 9 I find a chore, and 10 is up there with 5 and 6.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 04, 2021, 09:30:28 PM
Nah, you'll be wanting the RTD & Moffat Years (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,86814.0.html) thread.
We do have rather a lot of Doctor Who threads here, don't we? How soon before we can legitimately start pestering Neil for a subforum?

Ahh, cheers. Will continue in there.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 05, 2021, 05:12:18 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/c/c1/War_of_the_daleks_cover.jpg)
War of the Daleks by John Peel

"I have no intention of killing you, Doctor. Or," he added, the eyestalk moving to take in Sam, "your companion."
The Doctor raised an eyebrow. "That's a bit of a change from your usual policy, isn't it?" he asked. "You know - shoot first, interrogate the remains later?"
"Yes," agreed the Dalek Prime. However, circumstances have changed. The next time we meet, I shall probably exterminate you."


What with licensing issues and all, the NAs had no Dalek stories. There were regular references to them, Benny being conscripted to fight them from a young age, the impact of them on human space, and such. There was even a Dalek Invasion of Earth-concurrent story set on Mars, in which one Dalek actually got some dialogue. And of course there was the Master nonsense in the movie. Still, War of the Daleks was the first proper Dalek story in eight years. So I can completely understand why fans at the time reacted so badly to it.
There are lots of good ideas the book - the Thals wanting Davros to make them into the equivalent of Daleks so they could win a war is worth a novel in its own right (and it might be slightly less bleak than the Cybermen version of that story in Killing Ground) - but they're almost all in the first half, set on a scavenger vessel. Once the action moves to Skaro, it's just Davros Daleks vs. Imperial Daleks with some 'friendly' Power of the Daleks surprises thrown in for good measure. The dialogue quoted above is an example of the Daleks wanting to appear less Dalekish for... reasons. It's mind-numbingly boring, with long action sequences that would probably be quite fun on screen, but are little more than "then some more Daleks killed some more Daleks" on paper. There are plenty of totally uninteresting twists and turns of the 'every time they think they're free they're actually not!' variety. And, of course, the famous retcon where John Peel makes every post-Genesis Dalek story into a long, convoluted plan by the Dalek Prime, and thus robs them all of any suspense. Peel has got more than a touch of the Chibnall about him, in that he seems to have his idea of what Doctor Who should be and is willing to erase past stories just to make it happen (the first NA, Timewyrm: Genesys, removes all Seven and Ace's character growth and then basically goes with "the Seventh Doctor is crap, I'll have the Fourth save the day" at the climax). It's not interesting, it's not logical, and it doesn't benefit the Dalek plot in the slightest.
The Doctor is pretty much written as Davison's Doctor rather than McGann's, although I can let that slide a little, what with Peel having so little McGann to go on. Sam, once again, contributes absolutely nothing to the story whatsoever, other than getting jealous of a female guest character being friendly with The Doctor. Davros dies at the end, and he's probably not dead, because... reasons. References to almost every past Dalek story are thrown in, mostly awkwardly. We even get an aside with some Mechonoids fighting Daleks for no reason whatsoever.
Contrived, convoluted, boring, throwing interesting ideas out to focus on the least interesting aspect of the book, full of fanwank, and featuring a totally unnecessary retcon. Utter crap.

Next time on Doctor Who... I'm very glad to be back with Benny again, even though I'm over a quarter of the way through her NA series already. Although as I gave Simon Bucher-Jones's last NA 1/5, I remain cautious.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on September 05, 2021, 07:23:51 PM
Oh yeah, now I remember being pissed off at those Dalek novels. Dreadful, almost deliberately annoying crap.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on September 05, 2021, 07:25:09 PM
The bits I liked were the intermissions which featured other angles of the Dalek story. Lots of references and continuity, sure, but it was quite a nice bit of support.

better than the Dalek monologue that explains The Retcon.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 05, 2021, 10:07:06 PM
better than the Dalek monologue that explains The Retcon.
Not only is the retcon bollocks, but the image of the Doctor and a Dalek sitting down to have an exposition-laden conversation is just fucking terrible. Horrible book.

A couple of pages into this Benny novel and there's been a planet populated by sentient factories and a planet called They're All Nouns You Idiot. I have no fucking idea what I'm letting myself in for here.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on September 06, 2021, 12:18:14 AM
It was somewhat baffling at the time how Peel was the only writer to have the blessing of the Nation Estate to write the books with Daleks in them, especially as they were so poorly regarded. He did the majority of the Target Dalek stories as well, didn't he?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on September 06, 2021, 02:08:23 AM
It was somewhat baffling at the time how Peel was the only writer to have the blessing of the Nation Estate to write the books with Daleks in them, especially as they were so poorly regarded. He did the majority of the Target Dalek stories as well, didn't he?

He did 4, Terrance Dicks did 6. (Eric Saward did 2, Ben Aaronovitch and David Whittaker did one each.)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 06, 2021, 09:33:25 AM
I believe there was a disagreement with Nation about the Target books which is why there were none for years, and Peel did all the remaining 60s ones once that was sorted out. The two Troughton ones were done for Virgin and run to about twice the length of your average Target.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on September 06, 2021, 03:15:26 PM
They're not at all bad, either.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on September 06, 2021, 04:53:30 PM
Sad news that Tony Selby has died.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 06, 2021, 05:21:23 PM
He beat the other Tony Selby by three months though.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on September 06, 2021, 06:11:28 PM
Just about the best thing in that era of Doctor Who.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on September 06, 2021, 07:09:31 PM
He beat the other Tony Selby by three months though.

The snooker one?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 06, 2021, 07:11:02 PM
The snooker one?

A Tony Selby who worked for the BBC. He died three months ago and it was initially reported to be the other one.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on September 07, 2021, 08:13:32 AM
I was sat around watching Four to Doomsday the other day for some reason and fuck me Adric is a nob head in that. Also there's way too much dancing. It's like Britain's Got Talent in space with even more cunts.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 07, 2021, 09:22:20 AM
I love Four To Doomsday, it's mad as a... well, a box of frogs. In space.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on September 07, 2021, 11:21:13 AM
Science teacher: Four what to Doomsday? Four minutes? Four hours?! Four RHINOCEROSES?!!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 07, 2021, 11:48:14 AM
Calling it 'Four Days to Doomsday' would have changed the entire vibe though. 'Four to Doomsday' sounds really cool and ambiguous. 'Four Days to Doomsday' sounds like a schlocky disaster epic. And it hardly conveys a sense of danger - four days is ages. There's a reason why Iron maiden didn't write 'Four Days to Midnight'.

Apart from the fact that it can never be more than one day to midnight of course
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 07, 2021, 11:49:39 AM
I love the bit where Persuasion gets deactivated and Paul Shelley holds that dramatic pose.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 07, 2021, 12:09:13 PM
Stupid cricket ball scene as well.  It makes you feel like the entire costume for the fifth Doctor was devised with that scene in mind, yet it’s a crap scene.


There’s a reason they didn’t have the fourth Doctor collecting his scarf from a melted snowman with a dog pissing on it.  “I shall take this scarf to memorialise this brilliant moment,” as the dog turns its stream of piss towards his dimensionally transcendental coat pockets.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 07, 2021, 12:13:07 PM
and all jelly babies and sonic screwdriver completely drenched in piss by the end

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 07, 2021, 12:57:57 PM
Stupid cricket ball scene as well.  It makes you feel like the entire costume for the fifth Doctor was devised with that scene in mind, yet it’s a crap scene

Shot with Davison sat on an office chair being pulled across the studio on wires, I think. It was the first story he filmed too. Must've wondered what he'd let himself in for. 
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: olliebean on September 07, 2021, 02:24:28 PM
It's Four Episodes to Doomsday, surely?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 07, 2021, 04:03:33 PM
Kinda
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: the hum on September 07, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
Davison was often not my favourite era, but one thing I did appreciate was the shift away from the 'adjective of the noun'-type titles.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 07, 2021, 08:00:42 PM
Yeah, there's a very strong move away from those titles from the second JNT took over production. You have a run of Destiny of the Daleks, City of Death, Creature from the Pit, Nightmare of Even, Horns of Nimon, and then suddenly The Leisure Hive, Meglos, Full Circle, Warriors' Gate, etc. Some of the '80s titles are more intriguing than the episodes they represent. Mawdryn Undead is a superb name. Black Orchid, Four to Doomsday, The King's Demons, they all dare you to wonder what the story will be about. By the end of Davison's run the names began to revert to the older format, mind.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 07, 2021, 09:02:36 PM
'noun of the noun' surely?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: the hum on September 08, 2021, 01:40:35 AM
'noun of the noun' surely?

Daleks of the Daleks

probably involves a quantum singularity, or something.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ambient Sheep on September 08, 2021, 03:59:53 AM
Recursive wormhole.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: samadriel on September 08, 2021, 02:16:12 PM
Nah, Daleks of the Daleks is about those antibody things inside the Dalek in Into the Dalek
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 08, 2021, 05:04:19 PM
Into the Dalek of the Daleks
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 08, 2021, 05:05:02 PM
balek 7 of the daleks
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on September 08, 2021, 05:22:25 PM
This has got to be the best title.

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Fragile_Yellow_Arc_of_Fragrance_(audio_story)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on September 08, 2021, 05:41:58 PM
Not a fan of all those Farrow & Ball early 80s titles (“yes, we’re doing the bathroom in Enlightenment, the stairwell in Arc Of Infinity, and the kitchen we’re thinking of Black Orchid or Meglos”).

I think they’d have done better to make the stories seem exciting to kids, even if that means hitting some cliches. The Pirate Ships In Space! The Church Of Evil! Attack Of The Pantomime Horse!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on September 08, 2021, 05:52:05 PM
Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure with the Space Cactus
Doctor Who and the Horror of The Space Vampires
Doctor Who and the Space Frogs
Doctor Who and the Mind-Snake of Doom
Doctor Who in a Boring Adventure with the Space Termites
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 08, 2021, 05:56:27 PM
Space Frogs and Boring Adventure belong in the Chibnall thread.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 08, 2021, 08:15:41 PM
The Hive of Clones
The Cactus of Doom
Creatures from the Swamp
Vampires from Space
The Gate of Destiny
The Keeper of Traken
The Entropy of Time

The Maze City
Voyage of Death
The Nightmare Snake
The Terileptil Menace
The Waste of Episodes
Surprise of the Cybermen
Flight of Terror

Arc of Infinity
Return of the Nightmare Snake
The Circle of Time
The Big Bang
Race to Destiny
The Demons of History
The Five Doctors

Warriors of the Deep
Horror from Below
The Crawling Terror
Resurrection of the Daleks
Planet of Fire
The Caves of Androzani
The Children of Tedium

Attack of the Cybermen
Vengeance on Varos
The Mark of the Rani
The Two Doctors
The Sparkles of Pain
Revelation of the Daleks

The Mysterious Planet
The Machine of Evil
Terror of the Vervoids
The Eh of What??

Return of the Rani
The Towers of Terror
Delta and the Bannermen Invasion
Dragon of Ice

Remembrance of the Daleks
The Deathly Smile
Tedium of the Cybermen
The Circus of Fear

The Knights from Beyond
The House of Dread
The Curse of Fenric
Invasion of the Cat-People
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Gurke and Hare on September 08, 2021, 08:56:45 PM
The Waste of Episodes

The Pilot of Campion
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 08, 2021, 09:09:26 PM

The Waste of Episodes


belong in the Chibnall thread.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on September 09, 2021, 08:56:23 AM
Quote
Surprise of the Cybermen

For the first episode, it was listed only as Surprise!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 09, 2021, 09:14:37 AM
The Deathly Smile

It was 'The Crooked Smile' in production
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 09, 2021, 11:20:31 AM
The Ultimate Foe should have been Attack of the Megabyte Modem, in hindsight.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 09, 2021, 11:55:40 AM
Doctor Who and the Catharsis of Spurious Morality
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 09, 2021, 12:13:28 PM
Doctor Who and the Catharsis of Spurious Morality

I assumed this is what “the eh of what” was referring to.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 09, 2021, 12:34:48 PM
Oh yeah sorry, that'll teach me to post when I'm working

Or vice-versa
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on September 10, 2021, 04:15:32 PM
The Hive of Clones
The Cactus of Doom
Creatures from the Swamp
Vampires from Space
The Gate of Destiny
The Keeper of Traken
The Entropy of Time

The Maze City
Voyage of Death
The Nightmare Snake
The Terileptil Menace
The Waste of Episodes
Surprise of the Cybermen
Flight of Terror

Arc of Infinity
Return of the Nightmare Snake
The Circle of Time
The Big Bang
Race to Destiny
The Demons of History
The Five Doctors

Warriors of the Deep
Horror from Below
The Crawling Terror
Resurrection of the Daleks
Planet of Fire
The Caves of Androzani
The Children of Tedium

Attack of the Cybermen
Vengeance on Varos
The Mark of the Rani
The Two Doctors
The Sparkles of Pain
Revelation of the Daleks

The Mysterious Planet
The Machine of Evil
Terror of the Vervoids
The Eh of What??

Return of the Rani
The Towers of Terror
Delta and the Bannermen Invasion
Dragon of Ice

Remembrance of the Daleks
The Deathly Smile
Tedium of the Cybermen
The Circus of Fear

The Knights from Beyond
The House of Dread
The Curse of Fenric
Invasion of the Cat-People

I love all of these. I think The Children Of Tedium could also be a number of TOS Star Trek episodes.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 11, 2021, 02:07:21 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/a/a0/Ghost_Devices.jpg)
Ghost Devices by Simon Bucher-Jones
"Now you're all inside, the only thing between you and flashing-siren announced death is that I'm, presently, in charge of most of the subtler internal life detectors. Provided you don't actually shit on the furniture, you'll probably be all right."
"So," Bernice said, "why haven't you turned us in to the anti-life cops, Mr. Vent?" It could be worse, she thought to herself. At least it was the atmospheric system and not the waste-disposal one. She'd have never been able to live down being rescued by Mr. Toilet.


Ok, so that wasn't as bad as The Death of Art. For a start, it has a plot. It also has a lot of jokes. On the downside, Bucher-Jones's writing style is still pretty much the same stodgy, enthusiasm-sapping bollocks, meaning the book is full of sentences like "This was the case with most of the stars of the Northern Cross, with the exception of Epsilon Cygnus, which lay within a hundred light years of Earth and hence was on the tourist as well as the serious space routes, so ordinarily I might have expected libations of Old Father Space and the Virgin Worlds, and compulsory singing of "Up the Greasy Pole" and other zero-gee anthems" and "It had been abandoned partly because, even with subspace transit links, the inverse-cube law lost too much of the power, but mainly because the beams were lethal to any organism with a complex nervous system based on electrical signals that might come within a thousand miles or so of the secondary and tertiary electromagnetic-flux torus that surrounded each beam." Simon Bucher-Jones does not know how to write enjoyable prose. Also, much like his previous book, Ghost Devices has way, way too many characters, most of which feel somewhat interchangeable, and who are referred to by both their first names and surnames, seemingly at random, making it really bloody hard to work out who is who. At one point a character called David died and I truly couldn't remember who he even was. It's not helped by the fact that I could only read it in small blocks before getting distracted by something else, so unengaging was the prose, that forming proper images of the characters in my head was never going to happen.
Which is a shame because the story is really, really good. It's a proper Benny-style tale, with two main plots: investigating the origins of a 300km high tower that gifts people with knowledge of the future, and working out why most of the galaxy's weapons have suddenly started behaving kindly, doing things like delivering lozenges to enemies, or giving them manicures. The serious and the silly sit side-by-side nicely and dovetail perfectly at the end, with an incredible climax that involves the entire universe being forced into a looping time paradox which goes on countless times until, eventually, a slight random fluctuation resolves things. In the hands of someone like Paul Cornell or Ben Aaronovitch, this would be an absolute 5/5 book, but unfortunately, Bucher-Jones really isn't a very good writer.

After a great start, the Benny novels have taken a bit of a dive, and I'm not entirely excited about the fact that the next two authors are Terrance Dicks and Christopher fucking Bulis. Still, I'm hoping I can get back to a book a day rather than a book a week again.

Next time on Doctor Who... an EDA that has already almost been spoiled by a ludicrous amount of a hype. Here's hoping it lives up to it.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 14, 2021, 06:49:44 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/7/7e/Alien_bodies.jpg)
Alien Bodies by Lawrence Miles

Cor, a book full of intriguing ideas, mysteries, well-developed characters and an exciting, page-turning plot? It's almost as if we're back in the NA era again.
Quite simply the best EDA so far by quite a stretch. The idea itself is superb: the Doctor and Sam turn up in an artificial city where an auction is taking place. For the Doctor's corpse. The bidders include a couple of UNISYC (ie post-UNIT) soldiers, two people from the Faction Paradox (more on them later), a neurotic Time Lord with a sentient humanoid TARDIS, a non-corporeal entity, a sentient dead body, and a fucking Kroton. Of all the obscure aliens to bring back, I wonder what made him choose the Krotons. The book is stuffed with fascinating stuff: the Doctor's corpse, a group of Time Lords who've given up their bodies and exist as ideas called the Celestis, an in-depth exploration of the Krotons as a species, a chapter in which a UNISYC soldier finds herself trapped in a giant version of her own intestines chased by flowers with her own face on them, Sam being attacked by clones of her own baby self, Sam also realising that she previously had a different past where she was a rebellious drug-taking criminal, and her past had been re-written to make her a suitable companion for the Doctor, a centuries-long war between the Time Lords and an unnamed enemy, the apparent destruction of Gallifrey (they're on Gallifrey XII at this point). It's almost overwhelming, but all ties together brilliantly, somehow.
Lawrence Miles has a thing about the nature of reality. Much like the Rationalist cult in Christmas on a Rational Planet, the Faction Paradox are borderline-insane in their pursuit of scientific ideas as a form of religion. Obsessed with time paradoxes, they use their own copies of TARDISes to go through time and throw up as much mischief and bother as possible, wearing oversized skulls of Time Lords from an obsolete timeline as masks and being utterly loathed by everyone. I know there's more of them to come, including quite a sizeable spin-off line, which I'll probably get around to one day.
The Doctor is pretty well written, still not quite got a handle on who he is yet but he's definitely solidifying as a character. Sam, other than her brief realisation, once again adds absolutely nothing to the story. All the guests are pretty well handled, several of them being double agents. Mr. Qixotl is pretty funny throughout. The writing was snappy throughout, which is a nice relief after the last book I read. There were a couple of tedious moments, including numerous cryptic references to the Doctor being half-human (here was me hoping that would never be acknowledged again), but on the whole, very good.
It felt like it was the first episode of a new series, setting up plot strands that would recur over the next 12 episodes, which sadly won't be the case, but I'm looking forward to seeing just what is going on with the Time Lords and the Faction Paradox at some point in the future. I know Miles's next book is a notorious game-changer.

Next time on Doctor Who... Bernice Summerfield in an exciting adventure with Terrance Dicks.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Bad Ambassador on September 14, 2021, 07:06:47 PM
Alien Bodies was the first BBC novel I read. It was also the last for the next three years.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on September 15, 2021, 03:12:03 PM
15th Of Nov for Galaxy 4. DVD cover here, couldn’t post it from my phone.

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-william-hartnell-returns-galaxy-4-newsupdate
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 04:42:27 PM
Will it have deflating balloon head animation?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 15, 2021, 04:51:51 PM
It is by the team behind Fury from the Deep.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 04:54:02 PM
Maybe the last one to use the 2D style, then, I'm guessing.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: FredNurke on September 15, 2021, 05:07:15 PM
I look forward to gibbon arms everywhere.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 15, 2021, 05:13:36 PM
Maybe the last one to use the 2D style, then, I'm guessing.

Nah, I'm imagining the two teams (AnneMarie Walsh's and Gary Russell's) will continue to do the 2D projects for BBC America.

The 3D animations will be used for the stories that it is felt will not be possible to animate within budget using 2D animation (Marco Polo, The Crusade, The Daleks' Master Plan, The Highlanders).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on September 15, 2021, 05:19:05 PM
Quote
It felt like it was the first episode of a new series, setting up plot strands that would recur over the next 12 episodes, which sadly won't be the case, but I'm looking forward to seeing just what is going on with the Time Lords and the Faction Paradox at some point in the future. I know Miles's next book is a notorious game-changer.

and the EDAs, as far as I remember, completely fail to deliver on that front.

Within three books, there's an entirely different arc.

Looking at the list of EDAs, its nearly a year and a half until we revisit practically any of the ideas put into place by Alien Bodies.

Other notes:
iirc, read the intermission chapters in reverse order
one character has already met the Doctor. Looked him up once. Nope.
The Shift is a great idea.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 05:19:10 PM
(https://i1.wp.com/wearecult.rocks/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/48821_1_DR_WHO_GALAXY_4_BD_3D_TEMP.jpg?w=502&ssl=1)

Use of the Chibnall-era logo is so short-sighted.


When it comes to the blu ray box-sets, they'll still be releasing them long after the Chibnall era has ended and there is a new logo.  Will they use the newer logo for those later releases?  Stick to the Chibnall logo for uniformity?  This is why classic releases would have been better sticking to the McGann modification of the Pertwee logo.  Or using the logo of each specific season.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 15, 2021, 05:31:52 PM
Use of the Chibnall-era logo is so short-sighted.


When it comes to the blu ray box-sets, they'll still be releasing them long after the Chibnall era has ended and there is a new logo.  Will they use the newer logo for those later releases?  Stick to the Chibnall logo for uniformity?  This is why classic releases would have been better sticking to the McGann modification of the Pertwee logo.

For the Collection releases, I believe they stated from the outset that the logo will remain uniform throughout. I guess if the higher ups did send down a didact that they needed to change them, they could always just put a sticker over with the new logo and have the Chibnall era logo underneath for people who want uniformity.

They have reversible covers for the animated range. Sadly the steelbook can't have that but I personally only have three of those and of those it is just the Smith Specials that have the new logo (Shada and the four disc Power being the other two).

(https://i.imgur.com/JSz4hx3.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on September 15, 2021, 06:05:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq5Rsl7WLbc

Trailer.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on September 15, 2021, 06:31:56 PM
Aye, the reversible sleeves were a nice touch...

(https://www.comicbrits.co.uk/TV/Porridge/Porridge_Series1_DVD.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 06:35:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq5Rsl7WLbc

Trailer.

Can't say I'll ever really settle with the colour versions.  They don't mesh with the soundtracks for me.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on September 15, 2021, 06:35:55 PM
(https://i1.wp.com/wearecult.rocks/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/48821_1_DR_WHO_GALAXY_4_BD_3D_TEMP.jpg?w=502&ssl=1)

Use of the Chibnall-era logo is so short-sighted.


When it comes to the blu ray box-sets, they'll still be releasing them long after the Chibnall era has ended and there is a new logo.  Will they use the newer logo for those later releases?  Stick to the Chibnall logo for uniformity?  This is why classic releases would have been better sticking to the McGann modification of the Pertwee logo.  Or using the logo of each specific season.

That cover makes Andrew Skilleter look like Pablo Picasso

Clearly the only bit of effort went on Hartnell's face and it still looks nothing like him

His left hand looks like it was drawn by a child, and as for Drahvin Vera Duckworth, well

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on September 15, 2021, 06:45:23 PM
(https://images.immediate.co.uk/production/volatile/sites/3/2021/09/48571_1_DR_WHO_GALAXY_4_3D_SB_FRONT__BACK-90e54f5.jpg?webp=true&quality=90&resize=529%2C413)

Very unnerved by Hartnell's head tbh
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on September 15, 2021, 07:13:52 PM
(Because it looks like a withered, grey glans)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on September 15, 2021, 07:14:40 PM
(And NOT in a good way)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 15, 2021, 07:47:12 PM
You don’t need to include the “withered, grey”.  This is CaB where there is no other kind.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on September 15, 2021, 10:05:33 PM
something something Galaxy 4skin!!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/I3vk6Nz.png)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 16, 2021, 09:55:19 AM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/c/c7/Mean_Streets.jpg)
Mean Streets by Terrance Dicks.

Uncle Terry clearly likes mid-century American crime fiction. The first third of Shakedown was set in Megacity, a city run by various criminal gangs and overseen by corrupt police; half of Blood Harvest had the Doctor and Ace dealing with Al Capone, partially written first person from the perspective of a PI. In Mean Streets, Chris and Benny return to Megacity, and part of the book is written first person from the perspective of a PI. They're there to find out what "The Project" is, how it'll kill lots of people, and stop it. It turns out one of the mining companies has been experimenting on their workers and have accidentally activated a dormant "killer gene", turning them into ruthless murderers. Benny fancies a Demoniac called Lucifer, and Chris shags a gangster called Sara. And that's about it.
It's full-on Terrance Dicks, with absolutely no characterisation, lots of exclamation marks, people who routinely talk in exposition and cliches, some glaring errors (Chris teaching Benny about Earth history?!), gratuitous and wholly unfitting swearing and use of the word whores, and low word count. It's rubbish, but quite fun rubbish.

Next time on The New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield... oh God it's Bulis.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Deanjam on September 19, 2021, 02:09:19 PM
Just mentioning in here that John Challis has died. A great guest appearance in The Seeds of Doom.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 20, 2021, 11:15:23 AM
Totally forgot he was in that. Amazing how many familiar faces were on the show over the years.

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/4/46/Tempest.jpg)
Tempest by Christopher Bulis.

Not bad for Bulis. It's a whodunnit on a train. Two murders, an attempted murder and a theft. All of the possible suspects have enough motive, but none of them the ability. There's some action when a subplot comes to town. The characters are competently written but without any real depth. They mostly have naff sci-fi names. The big reveal at the end isn't as surprising as Bulis thought it was, but it slots together quite well. Benny's diary entries are used for exposition rather than character growth. There's no reference to any of the on-going arcs from the other books. It didn't make me want to gnaw my hands off like Bulis's worst, and it was generally quite pacy and fun to read, but I also won't ever read it again. It's really hard to say much else about it to be honest.

Next time on Doctor Who... oh joy, a first time author.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on September 20, 2021, 11:54:40 AM
I got round to ordering The Web of Fear Blu-ray last week and watched it yesterday. I wavered after seeing the animated clips online (that and I've already got the DVD) but I'd say it was worth the purchase. A cracking story gets an even better restoration. The film bits looked wonderfully crisp.

I didn't think the animation was terrible when viewed in black-and-white (haven't watched the colour version yet) but when compared to the other animated stories it can't help but feel perfunctory and wasn't very engaging. I know it was done to keep within budget and I'm not trying to kick something when it's down, but it's hard not to think something better will be done with it in the future. I'm glad a story like Evil of the Daleks hasn't been animated this way as I don't think I could sit through more than one episode of it.

On the other hand I thought the Making Of was wonderful. Really lovely stuff, well researched and crafted, and a big reason why I don't mind double dipping for the Blu-rays. So yeah, I'm glad I picked it up. But because the animation does feel like a placeholder for something better it doesn't quite feel definitive.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 20, 2021, 12:05:46 PM
Also “kicking something when it’s down” isn’t really what you’re doing when you’re paying full price for a DVD or blu ray release after already buying the bare bones version.


At times it feels like we’re holding back from criticism because these DVDs are only doing it for work experience or they’ve been given the job as part of an equal opportunities scheme.  When in truth we’re all routinely paying a lot of money to support a product that feels consistently within its infancy one way or another.


I mean don’t get me wrong - I am choosing to buy these releases and that’s completely on me, but in no way do I feel like I am “kicking something when it’s down” just by being honest.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on September 20, 2021, 12:28:23 PM
Oh yeah I totally agree. £20 isn't a low price point either, and I couldn't justify paying £30 for the steelbook (although I did prefer Lee Binding's lovely artwork for the standard release anyway).

I meant more that the animation team seem to have been very limited in terms of budget and resource, and feels like they did the best they could, so I felt a bit mean in sticking the boot in when loads of people have already said it was crap. But the animation did feel substandard and I imagine it will be replaced or revised when it comes to the Season 5 Blu-ray.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 20, 2021, 01:20:13 PM
They might improve the animation with slight tweaks for the Season 5 set but it will not be completely redone. They have previously said that the budget on the Collection sets would not stretch to an animation due to needing to utilise the budget for other areas. There are already compromises on these sets such as Season 8 not having any new work on The Mind of Evil Episode 1 (which IIRC Stuart Humphreys was a little upset about as he felt he could have improved the colourisation).

I believe the reason for using 3D animation for The Web of Fear was so that they could use the budget to pay for the initial set-up costs for the process and it will now enable them to other stories within the budget of a DVD/BR release which would not be possible utilising the 2D animation. Marco Polo, The Crusade, The Daleks' Master Plan and The Highlanders are stories hinted by Charles Norton* as being difficult for 2D due to either length, complexity or a mixture of both.

We know that The Evil of the Daleks and Galaxy 4 are on the way in the 2D style of animation. If we see The Myth Makers, The Massacre, The Celestial Toymaker, The Savages, The Smugglers, The Underwater Menace, The Abominable Snowmen, The Wheel in Space and The Space Pirates all done via the 2D animation at a rate of 2-3 a year then I'll be very happy myself. I think animating the others using the 3D animation (which I think has some benefits, even if it is a downgrade on the 2D) is a compromise I am willing to take in order to have everything recreated.

*(https://i.imgur.com/Lr1WlaJ.png)

Also “kicking something when it’s down” isn’t really what you’re doing when you’re paying full price for a DVD or blu ray release after already buying the bare bones version.

At times it feels like we’re holding back from criticism because these DVDs are only doing it for work experience or they’ve been given the job as part of an equal opportunities scheme.  When in truth we’re all routinely paying a lot of money to support a product that feels consistently within its infancy one way or another.

I mean don’t get me wrong - I am choosing to buy these releases and that’s completely on me, but in no way do I feel like I am “kicking something when it’s down” just by being honest.

I think it depends. Much of the work on these releases are done by fans. Can you imagine what it must have felt like for Stuart Humphreys after working night after night on top of his day job coloursing The Mind of Evil 1 only to get fans then complain that it doesn't look as good as Planet of the Daleks 3. Or for Mark Ayres to be picking apart all of the audio and artificially creating a 5.1 surround sound Genesis of the Daleks only for some to complain that the entire release didn't have 5.1.

I should stress that this isn't aimed at anybody on here. I don't think any of the criticism on here has been out of order and has been understandable even when I may disagree. Whilst I like the animation for The Web of Fear, I understand why others don't.

The Web of Fear is one of those cases where it is a process that they are just finding their way with. Much like Planet 55 when they did Reign of Terror and it was a disaster but then did The Tenth Planet and The Moonbase to much praise. I put The Moonbase as my favourite of all of the animation and Reign of Terror is easily bottom. I think if there is one hope I have for the Season 1 set, it is some sort of new recreation for Reign (unfortunately no telesnaps exist). Whether it is right that a commercial release should be a guinea pig for an animation process, I guess is down to the individual buyers. I'm happy if it leads us to all episodes being recreated in some form eventually.

I'm usually very defensive on these releases, but even I do criticise when I feel it is necessary. I know I was pretty scathing about the Myths and Legends set, Reign of Terror, Silver Nemesis, The Underwater Menace plus those shit 16:9 cutdown messes done for a couple of Davison stories. How the hell those Davison cutdowns saw a commercial release I don't know. Even worse, they got a second disc whilst Silver Nemesis couldn't get an extended version due to disc space despite already previously having an extended version for the VHS era.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on September 20, 2021, 04:32:42 PM
surely the BBC can just make a loss
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 20, 2021, 04:36:06 PM
Cancel Chibnall episodes and use the money to pay for animations. This is the way.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on September 20, 2021, 04:41:19 PM
honestly tho, think how much dosh they've rinsed out of doctor who over the years. loads. mountains upon mountains of tat sold. they could easily justify investing a bit more cash to produce higher quality releases while making a comparatively tiny loss on a handful of niche animations. they'd probably sell more if they had higher production values too. ka-ching!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on September 20, 2021, 04:47:26 PM
Cancel Chibnall episodes and use the money to pay for animations. This is the way.

aye! a few million for each serial...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Midas on September 20, 2021, 04:55:25 PM
i actually just spent ages writing a furiously cynical tirade condemning the BBC's doctor who releases and re-releases and re-re-releases as being a symptom of a widespread predatory consumer culture and then i went on to explain in detail how everything's shit but i decided it was a bit miserable for a monday and would probably get people down so i deleted it. it was a stunning piece of work tho. very principled. i'm hesitant to say... christ-like.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 20, 2021, 05:15:02 PM
Do you think they'll ever consider making an animated version of Warriors of the Deep? It could be brilliant
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 20, 2021, 05:29:47 PM
CGI Myrka
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on September 20, 2021, 06:13:53 PM
I was already probably not going to double dip on the Web blu ray, but once they put the clips out, it was a definite no. DVD is fine for me until they find the actual episode.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on September 21, 2021, 12:44:12 AM
I was already probably not going to double dip on the Web blu ray, but once they put the clips out, it was a definite no. DVD is fine for me until they find the actual episode.

Or get it off of the absolute shit who stole it after it was discovered. Bet it was an animator...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on September 23, 2021, 03:54:10 PM
I've just been watching Timelash for the first time. Thought it was meant to be shit. It's great. Bit where the guy gets zapped and he turns into a skeleton and it falls over and goes THUNK on the floor. That's good telly.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 23, 2021, 04:01:23 PM
I've just been watching Timelash for the first time. Thought it was meant to be shit. It's great. Bit where the guy gets zapped and he turns into a skeleton and it falls over and goes THUNK on the floor. That's good telly

Been watching the first couple of episodes of The Two Doctors and got the final one lined up for tonight, so I guess Timelash could be next on the list...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 23, 2021, 04:34:10 PM
RIP Desolation Thread.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on September 23, 2021, 04:44:20 PM
Hey, 2 Docs (1 capsule?) wasn't that bad. The scenes where Dastari threatens to carve up the 2nd Doctor were great. Jacqueline Peirce is perfect as Chessene, the Sontarans make for decent agitators, Shockeye is of course a gruesomely glorious creation and Oscar and Anita provide fine comic relief. In fact... in fact it's mostly only the scenes in which Colin Baker appears that are awful. Hmm.


Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on September 23, 2021, 06:38:56 PM
The music in it is pretty good as well.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on September 23, 2021, 07:18:39 PM
The Two Doctors is fine if you accept that it was just an excuse for the cast and crew to have a lovely Spanish holiday and don't worry too much about the story.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on September 23, 2021, 07:41:53 PM
Colin Baker's costume is less shit in it, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 23, 2021, 08:06:16 PM
I really, really hate The Two Doctors. Not even Pat can save it. Although he gives it a good go.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 23, 2021, 11:02:56 PM
I love The Two Doctors. I even own The Two Doctors action figure set.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on September 24, 2021, 12:00:51 AM
The Two Doctors might not be as awful if it was less than nine hours long. I’ll say one thing in favour about the omniscient drama-killing 7th Doctor, at least his foreknowledge means he doesn’t spend an hour and a half wandering about an empty space station hoping to bump into the plot.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Wacky Homemade Badges on September 24, 2021, 12:10:40 AM
I've just been watching Timelash for the first time. Thought it was meant to be shit. It's great. Bit where the guy gets zapped and he turns into a skeleton and it falls over and goes THUNK on the floor. That's good telly.

Yeah, Timelash is utter crap but really fun. It should be Doctor Who’s version of The Room. There ought to be cinema screenings where everyone comes wearing tinsel and chants along with all of Paul Darrow’s lines.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 25, 2021, 03:33:50 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/1/16/Kursaal.jpg)
Kursaal by Peter Anghelides

Doctor Who and the Space Werewolves. The Doctor and Sam land on a planet, find some bodies that have (obviously) been killed by Space Werewolves, spend a long time not working out what's going on, join up with a band of eco-terrorists-freedom-fighter-types, get arrested, help defeat some Space Werewolves, leave, return in the future when Kursaal has finally been turned into a holiday planet where it turns out Sam's been infected and is turning into the leader of the Space Werewolves, the Doctor blows up the Space Werewolf base, saving Sam in the process, and every secondary character dies over the course of the book. An utterly pedestrian runaround, with two dimensional characters, some fairly poor humour, and crap, unconvincing villains in the form of the Jax. The book is literally only of note because it's the first EDA where Sam plays an active part in the plot rather than just fancying the Doctor.

Next time on Doctor Who... Justin Richards, so it should hopefully at least be somewhat decent.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on September 26, 2021, 02:54:29 PM
Yeah, its a solid run around but not much more than that. Remember liking the time jump.

Next one up I enjoyed. Think I may still own it somewhere.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 26, 2021, 06:55:46 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/e/e9/Option_Lock.jpg)
Option Lock by Justin Richards

I find it very difficult to pinpoint exactly what it is that I think works and what doesn't when it comes to writing. Obviously plot, characters, humour, etc. are important, but the actual language used is just as necessary to make a good book. Something immediately clear in this book, which was just a joy to read. Wonderfully descriptive prose that managed to be incredibly detailed and evocative and yet snappy and fun at the same time. The first EDA I've read in a day since that first horrible one.

It's actually the sort of story I think would have worked well as the TV Movie: it's fairly trad and very recognisably Doctor Who, but on a scale which would have required a bigger budget than the original series had. The first act is nicely spooky, with the Doctor and Sam landing at an old manor house with halls that are lined with paintings that give people the shivers and historical records mentioning a chapel that has seemingly disappeared. Throw in a chap standing in the fountain in the middle of the night and the house's owner meeting with important politicians and it's all very early '70s in style. The move towards an international conspiracy at government and military level is a successful ramping up of events. The downside is the middle of the book, where Richards puts his techno-thriller hat on and we get a very, very long section with a very detailed description of an ex-Soviet state and the US being forced into nuclear strikes on each other. It all seems very well researched, and it would probably have been much swifter and more exciting on screen - a great centrepiece for a potential movie - but as the reason behind it all (forcing the US to show their hand and use their secret anti-nuke weapon) was so obvious that, sadly, the whole section felt incredibly tedious.
Thankfully, the rest of the plot really is very successful and, despite being quite convoluted, manages to tie itself together really well, and there's lots of great atmosphere throughout the book, as well as plenty of decent humour. The Doctor is very well portrayed, and even Sam feels like a proper character, having a believable relationship with the Doctor and playing some important parts of the plot. There are nice little bits of wordplay, with each chapter being named after a phrase in the last sentence of the previous chapter, and many times when the action shifts from one place to another a similar technique is used, being very suggestive of a director choosing to end one scene with feet running down stairs and open another with the same action in a different location. It really does feel like it was written for the screen.

So yeah, the middle lets it down a bit, but otherwise a really enjoyable story. Doesn't break any boundaries, but this kind of tale should be the standard your basic book should be at, rather than an obvious standout!

Next time on Doctor Who The New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield... Kate Orman, hooray!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on September 26, 2021, 08:27:50 PM
It feels, at times, like a non-Who script that Richards adapted. But I think the alien in it and how that ties it all together works really nicely.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on September 28, 2021, 07:32:55 PM
The Evil of the Daleks animation is lovely. Up there with the best of them.

The story itself is good but feels padded in all the wrong places. I would have much preferred additional episodes on Skaro.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Malcy on September 28, 2021, 08:05:28 PM
The Evil of the Daleks animation is lovely. Up there with the best of them.

The story itself is good but feels padded in all the wrong places. I would have much preferred additional episodes on Skaro.

Didn't realise it was out. Thought I had pre-ordered it but hadn't.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on September 28, 2021, 08:18:43 PM
Reminded me of the job Cosgrove Hall did on The Invasion - good stuff!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 29, 2021, 10:06:39 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/2/28/Walking_to_Babylon.jpg)
Walking to Babylon by Kate Orman

There was nothing to do but float here, and wait for death. Clarence closed his eyes.
A few minutes later, one of God's yellow drones skimmed up to him. Clarence opened his eyes again, surprised.
"Who the
fuck did that?" said God.

I thought it was about time Benny had her own time travel story!
A fabulous book. Two People from the Worldsphere create a time travel path and go back to ancient Babylon. Benny is brought in to try and get them back before it's deemed necessary to blow up the path and thus Babylon with it. It's the kind of book that requires fairly extensive knowledge of the People - not only The Also People, but their appearances in the Benny books - but having that knowledge makes it a very satisfying read. Away from a number of back-references to The Also People events, the characters of God and Clarence are very important to the book. And, of course, the time travel breaks the People's treaty with the Time Lords in several ways. Which turns out to be the point: two People are trying to provoke a war between the People and the Time Lords. I wonder how many people reading at the time wondered whether this was actually an intentional tie-in to the Gallifreyan war mentioned in Alien Bodies. The only downside is that, without the Doctor Who license, the Time Lords are always referred to as "you know who" or "the enemies", which never reads well.
The Worldsphere stuff is all a lot of fun, but the real gold is the time Benny spends in Babylon with Edwardian linguist John Lafayette who accidentally found himself on the path and back in time. It remains almost entirely 'pure' historical for much of the book, with the two of them exploring the city and its culture and trying to track down the rogue People. Their relationship is really wonderful, a huge fondness and attraction (leading to a shag, of course) without them really falling in love. The kind of book that lets you wallow in the highly detailed atmosphere of its setting and just enjoy exploring it with the main characters. In many ways, it echoed The Also People, in that the overall plot often seemed secondary to the being there. And then, a very subtle hint at potential Worldsphere plots to come, right near the end.
Really marvellous, my favourite Benny book so far.

Next time on Doctor Who... ugh, another first time novelist. These never work.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on September 29, 2021, 10:33:08 PM
The audio of that is a treat - and features Lis Sladen!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on September 30, 2021, 08:37:10 PM
Yeah, I noticed the early Benny ones have plenty of Who alumni in them, which should be fun. That said, I'm trying to work out how Orman's wonderfully detailed descriptions of Babylon would translate to audio. I suppose I'll tell later in the year.

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/6/65/Longest_Day.jpg)
Longest Day by Michael Collier

First-time novelists always seem to come to their books with way too many ideas. I kind of understand this - terrified they'd never get another chance, writers throw everything they've got at their first book - but given that Michael Collier is a pseudonym of EDA range editor Stephen Cole, I'm slightly baffled as to why he seems to have done the same thing here.
There are loads of great ideas here: a planet with a huge number of fractured time frames, used as a dumping ground for prisoners, the infirm, toxic waste and such, which is falling apart leading to all sorts of strange time phenomena on the surface such as a man existing in 60 incarnations, rapid ageing and deageing, people caught in time loops; a monitoring station on a moon designed to keep the time zones on the planet in order, that turns out to be a repurposed ancient ship; an ancient race of aliens seeking out time travel to reverse the effects of a war they found themselves caught in the middle of and almost wiped out in the process; rebels trying to get prisoners to fight the corrupt government of the entire Thannos system; Sam being separated from the Doctor for pretty much the entire book; the Time Trees from Genocide return.
The problem is not just that none of these elements are allowed to breathe, but that they could easily have been had half the book not been taken up with really dull, plodding action sequences. Convincing, exciting action is very hard to write, and Cole, at this point, cannot write it. Chapter after chapter of rebels vs. soldiers, big aggressive aliens after galactic domination vs. the Doctor, gunfights and technobabble. And almost everybody dies, to the extent that some plot strands are effectively completely pointless. Almost no characters are likeable, although a chap who bounces around gleefully shouting "I've got metal legs!" is a lot of fun.
But yeah, lots of good ideas, totally squandered.
Still, the Sam is Missing arc starts now. Hopefully that means she won't be in it, because she was a pain in the arse through most of this book as well.

Next time on The New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield... Dave Stone will no doubt be providing more evidence of how much better the Benny books are than the EDAs.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on October 01, 2021, 07:35:54 AM
(...) really dull, plodding action sequences. (...) Chapter after chapter of rebels vs. soldiers, big aggressive aliens after galactic domination vs. the Doctor, gunfights and technobabble. And almost everybody dies, to the extent that some plot strands are effectively completely pointless. Almost no characters are likeable

Haha - Sounds bloody awful!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on October 01, 2021, 09:31:52 AM
Latest in Bondov's weird Doctor Who opinions (I'm filling in a load of my Classic Who gaps while I've got a free 6 months of BritBox): Arc of Infinity is rubbish but it's saved by Colin Baker. He's loads of fun and I can see why the Doctor decided to regenerate into him. Colin Baker fucking rules quite frankly. While I've got this BritBox I'm going to watch his episode of Blake's 7, where he supposedly hams it up and hogs his scenes so much that Paul Darrow decided to get his own back when he did Timelash.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on October 01, 2021, 11:13:48 AM
Next time on The New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield... Dave Stone will no doubt be providing more evidence of how much better the Benny books are than the EDAs.
Oh God it’s a sequel to Sky Pirates.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on October 01, 2021, 12:07:24 PM
Arc of Infinity is rubbish but it's saved by Colin Baker. He's loads of fun and I can see why the Doctor decided to regenerate into him. Colin Baker fucking rules quite frankly. While I've got this BritBox I'm going to watch his episode of Blake's 7, where he supposedly hams it up and hogs his scenes so much that Paul Darrow decided to get his own back when he did Timelash.

I'm currently in the middle of the Big Finish 'Lost Season 23' stories - which are (mostly) a solid gold treat - the Elizabethan historical 'Point of Entry' by Barabara Clegg being a highlight : particularly the bit where Peri has to go around impersonating the Queen!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: A Hat Like That on October 01, 2021, 02:52:56 PM
Longest Day.
Longest Read. Am I right?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on October 01, 2021, 04:55:05 PM
Yes, for a story with so many ideas packed into it, it was a fucking slog.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on October 03, 2021, 11:32:52 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2h7-vMX4AE78xt.jpg)
Oblivion by Dave Stone

Whatever danger she was currently in was not hallucinatory. It was, so far as reality could be inferred, completely real.
"You're the one behind all this," she growled at the alien creature. "You've been doing something to my mind. Well I'm here to tell you that it hasn't worked. You won't get anything from me."
Said alien creature seemed a little taken aback. "Is not!" it squeaked vehemently. "Is lovely Sgloomi Po what is name and is friend! Is on same side as Roz-type person and is not nasty-bugger want to do horrible thing. Is on same side."
"Yeah, right," said Roz. "Prove it."


Well, that was... something.
Actually, the first half was pretty good. The main cast of Sky Pirates! return, only set in our universe(ish) rather than The System, so it's actually readable. There appears to be a multiversal collapse, realities winking out of existence, each one replacing the current. Sgloomi Po - who, despite hir absurd dialogue occasionally being grating, is an absolute joy for the most part ("Is roar. Is tentacular, fibrillating and distinctly unconvincing roar.") - recruits Benny, Jason, Chris and a young Roz to help, managing to bring together than NA family and cause huge amounts of stress in the process (Benny and Jason are at each other's throats; Chris is torn up about meeting a Roz who won't even know who he is). The intelligent, helpful Time Lord known as the Doctor isn't brought on board because Virgin lost the license. Meanwhile, on Earth, the remaining crew of the Schirron Dream are experiencing each increasingly bizarre reality as it tears through the universe, including one where they appear to be in a film noir thriller, one where they're in a Sherlock Holmes story, and one where they're basically in 1984. It's weird and daft and colourful and a lot of fun.
And then the second half of the book happens and it turns into unreadable sludge. As the multiverse approaches collapse and things become fundamentally abstract, Dave Stone's prose becomes so fractured and surreal and nonsensical that it makes reading more than a chapter at a time an absolute chore. The sort of stuff where you can basically skim read pages at a time and get the idea, because it's ultimately just lots of weirdness that goes nowhere. The reveal that it's all a big trick to get them all in the same place in order that they can all be put into their own personal hells so their minds can be used to create an actual alternate reality where a man we've barely met can become immortal even though that reality is indescribable and impossible for the human mind to even comprehend is... well, a bit crap really.
So, there was a lot of potential there, but it all ended up being ludicrously pretentious crap in the end. Still, a couple more hints at what Jason is doing at the minute, as well as a rather sinister passage about how the Old Gods, Elementals, Immortals and such are too busy preparing for "some imminent Big War" that I'm hoping is at least vaguely hinting towards the same thing the People and Knights of Jeneve plots are also hinting at.

Next time on the New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield... Justin Richards is back, so hopefully something straight-forward at least.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: mjwilson on October 03, 2021, 10:09:33 PM
Not a bad cover, by the usual standards.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on October 04, 2021, 04:14:32 PM
Indeed, it's a good one, although it totally spoils the return of Roz.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on October 04, 2021, 05:25:54 PM
Chalk me up as someone who found the latter half of the book confusingly disappointing and a bit depressing. After the wild ideas and scope of Sky Pirates! it was a somewhat deflating read. The trope of characters trapped in their own personal hells is also a well-worn trope that Stone goes back to multiple times.

Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on October 07, 2021, 03:24:20 PM
Season 17 out in December. Episodic version of Shada amongst a huge amount of new features. Looks like it could be the best set yet.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on October 07, 2021, 03:56:10 PM
Trailer for the release:  https://youtu.be/Fwv3-PGCw8o


Tom is looking worryingly thin.  Is he okay?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on October 07, 2021, 04:00:20 PM


Tom is looking worryingly thin.  Is he okay?

Remember reading from somebody involved with the range (around the time of Season 14's release) that he is more sprightly and energetic than he was a few years ago.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on October 07, 2021, 04:37:23 PM
Trailer for the release: https://youtu.be/Fwv3-PGCw8o

Ha ha, worth watching for the hilariously inept Nightmare of Eden special effects 'upgrade'
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on October 07, 2021, 04:38:49 PM
Okay, good.  It’s a striking contrast to the last time I saw him - I guess it was the final scene of the completed Shada or thereabouts.  People can undoubtedly lose weight for positive reasons, but being the age he is obviously raises some concerns that he might be ill.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on October 07, 2021, 05:16:11 PM
Lalla Ward….sigh…..
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on October 07, 2021, 05:21:53 PM
That's an uncharacteristically late announcement. Normally it gets announced five months beforehand. How are they going to fit in the requisite seven release date delays in this short time?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on October 07, 2021, 05:28:35 PM
Galaxy 4 and The Evil of the Daleks were also announced fairly late on.

They won't want to delay this one. Every kid around the country will want The Horns of Nimon on Christmas Day.

Lalla Ward….sigh…..

If it is any consolation, it is probably the last set she will be involved in. They recorded some interviews with her in advance (I think whilst they worked on Season 18) in anticipation of her leaving the country.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: frajer on October 07, 2021, 05:29:43 PM
How are they going to fit in the requisite seven release date delays in this short time?

Heh yeah I just preordered and thought “there’s no way that’ll be arriving before Christmas.”
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on October 07, 2021, 05:43:18 PM
Lalla Ward….sigh…..

Is she down on Doctor Who nowadays then?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on October 07, 2021, 06:54:44 PM
Don't think she is, is she?

Was still up for recording for Big Finish - including a box set with Tom and Matthew Waterhouse!
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: JamesTC on October 07, 2021, 07:05:43 PM

Was still up for recording for Big Finish - including a box set with Tom and Matthew Waterhous!

Tom records separately. I think Jane Slavin stands in for whoever his companion is (which led to her playing his companion for a run).
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: daf on October 07, 2021, 07:11:14 PM
That's right - she usually teams up in the studio with John 'K9' Leeson, I think. She's in Hong Kong now, so maybe they're done. *

Fun Fact - Tom's next companion on audio will be played by Nerys Hughes

- - - - - - - - - -
* (Though, during the thick of Covid everyone was recording from home, so that might not be an obstacle - if they want to do some more)
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on October 07, 2021, 07:27:27 PM
I think Jamie was sighing because she is extremely lovely
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on October 07, 2021, 08:26:20 PM
All the more amusing because she isn't...
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: jamiefairlie on October 07, 2021, 08:56:47 PM
I think Jamie was sighing because she is extremely lovely

How can anyone misinterpret as anything else. She’s perfect.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: pigamus on October 07, 2021, 09:01:36 PM
I think Jamie was sighing because she is extremely lovely

But why did James say it would be a consolation that she’s leaving the country?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on October 13, 2021, 08:31:18 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/4/47/The_Medusa_Effect.jpg)
The Medusa Effect by Justin Richards

Hmm.
The first half of that was great. Benny is hired for an investigation. An experimental spacecraft that disappeared on its maiden voyage has mysteriously reappeared and is heading home. Benny does Event Horizon, maybe? When the team get there, a pile of dead bodies is found, and soon people are seeing ghosts of the original passengers. A spooky ghost ship story. As time goes on, Benny and a mysterious character called Stuart discover worrying similarities between the original passengers and the new team. Simultaneously events start to repeat themselves as the new team begin believe they are the original passengers. At this point I began to get worried, because, great and spooky as all this is, it's all happened before the halfway mark. And then it falls apart. Benny and Stuart are treated like stowaways and chased and attacked by everyone else for ages, then the rest all kill each other, then there's an "it was all an experiment to make a weapon" yawn reveal and they have to deal with a terrible pantomime villain who's trying to kill them to keep the secret safe. A side plot including a murderer who found his way onto the original voyage is narratively important, but utterly, utterly boring. Disappointingly, Richards's usual rich prose is largely absent in the second half, making it a really tedious runaround. My reading ground to a near halt, getting through a few pages a day at most. Major disappointment.

And with that, I pass the halfway mark with the Benny NAs.

Next time on Doctor Who... oh God it's another John Peel Dalek story. FML.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on October 13, 2021, 09:05:47 PM
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/4/47/The_Medusa_Effect.jpg)
The Medusa Effect by Justin Richards

Hmm.
The first half of that was great. Benny is hired for an investigation. An experimental spacecraft that disappeared on its maiden voyage has mysteriously reappeared and is heading home. Benny does Event Horizon, maybe? When the team get there, a pile of dead bodies is found, and soon people are seeing ghosts of the original passengers. A spooky ghost ship story. As time goes on, Benny and a mysterious character called Stuart discover worrying similarities between the original passengers and the new team. Simultaneously events start to repeat themselves as the new team begin believe they are the original passengers. At this point I began to get worried, because, great and spooky as all this is, it's all happened before the halfway mark. And then it falls apart. Benny and Stuart are treated like stowaways and chased and attacked by everyone else for ages, then the rest all kill each other, then there's an "it was all an experiment to make a weapon" yawn reveal and they have to deal with a terrible pantomime villain who's trying to kill them to keep the secret safe. A side plot including a murderer who found his way onto the original voyage is narratively important, but utterly, utterly boring. Disappointingly, Richards's usual rich prose is largely absent in the second half, making it a really tedious runaround. My reading ground to a near halt, getting through a few pages a day at most. Major disappointment.

And with that, I pass the halfway mark with the Benny NAs.

Next time on Doctor Who... oh God it's another John Peel Dalek story. FML.

Pretty sure I read this one but I can't honestly remember a thing about it. The cover rings a vague bell, but the actual plot description rings none whatsoever. Sounds like it was Richards at his most workmanlike.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: purlieu on October 13, 2021, 11:40:53 PM
Yeah, he usually manages a decent book, even something like Grave Matter which, according to rumour, was written in a few days to fill a gap, but once the main mystery was solved in this one it was just filling pages. It's a shame, because if the first two thirds were spread out over the whole thing with the same level of care given to the first half then it would be a fantastic story.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on October 15, 2021, 11:29:00 AM
Well, the Barrowman cancellation didn't last very long. Barely an inconvenience!

https://www.atvtoday.co.uk/185577-itv/
https://metro.co.uk/2021/10/12/john-barrowmans-return-confirmed-after-dancing-on-ice-sack-15406189/

Has he got dirt on someone high up at ITV, how the fuck did he come back so quickly after getting "sacked"?
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Alberon on October 15, 2021, 11:51:28 AM
He must never have been sacked to begin with. Might have just been asking for too much money to keep doing the regular show.
Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Norton Canes on October 15, 2021, 12:44:34 PM
Michael Ferguson, director of The War Machines, The Seeds of Death, The Ambassadors of Death and The Claws of Axos, as well as episodes of Colditz and The Sandbaggers (and scores of things besides) has died aged 84.


Title: Re: Old Doctor Who - Part 4
Post by: Replies From View on October 15, 2021, 05:10:51 PM