Cook'd and Bomb'd

Forums => General Bullshit => Topic started by: QDRPHNC on June 20, 2020, 03:25:31 PM

Title: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on June 20, 2020, 03:25:31 PM
Why all the gnashing of teeth over how much we talk about him? He used to be one of the biggest names in UK comedy, instrumental parts of some of CaB's best-loved shows, and he's trashed his career and his family because he's incapable of not being a bastard on Twitter. No surprise we have hundreds of pages devoted to him.

(Not picking on you specifically, Polymorphia, I've just noticed it in this thread more than others).
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: koeman on June 20, 2020, 03:37:05 PM
Quote from: Polymorphia on June 20, 2020, 03:13:09 PM
This thread has truly been one cavalcade of shit after another, and the JK Rowling situation certainly hasn't helped in any degree. I don't even know if the next thread could be the last, unless he's banned from Twitter. Truly an unwise gamble for me to make

I missed a word out of my post. Give the cheque to someone more worthy.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on June 20, 2020, 03:57:46 PM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 20, 2020, 03:25:31 PM
Why all the gnashing of teeth over how much we talk about him? He used to be one of the biggest names in UK comedy, instrumental parts of some of CaB's best-loved shows, and he's trashed his career and his family because he's incapable of not being a bastard on Twitter. No surprise we have hundreds of pages devoted to him.

(Not picking on you specifically, Polymorphia, I've just noticed it in this thread more than others).
i mean I also think it's important how making fun of his racecar bed and carbonara kits contributes towards the discussion of the insidious pushback on the human rights of transpeople by certain parts of the media, dodgy astroturf groups like the LGB Alliance and the current governments here and abroad.

Thanks, Graham! You make us laugh AND help transrights! Hooray!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on June 20, 2020, 04:11:31 PM
I think one could argue its drawing attention to a sick, sick man going through a breakdown, maybe revelling in it? Unsure really.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: iamcoop on June 20, 2020, 05:50:35 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 20, 2020, 04:11:31 PM
I think one could argue its drawing attention to a sick, sick man going through a breakdown, maybe revelling in it? Unsure really.

I think if that person spends pretty much the whole of their existence bullying, berating and randomly targeting anybody that either disagrees with them or simply doesn't engage in their confrontational approaches on a public forum such as twitter then it's more than fair to discuss that  behaviour here, even more so given they used to be a lauded comedy writer.

The discussions about his wife or his family life on this thread I can do without and find distasteful to be honest. No matter how much hate he spouts.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: popcorn on June 20, 2020, 06:58:51 PM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 20, 2020, 03:25:31 PM
Why all the gnashing of teeth over how much we talk about him? He used to be one of the biggest names in UK comedy, instrumental parts of some of CaB's best-loved shows, and he's trashed his career and his family because he's incapable of not being a bastard on Twitter. No surprise we have hundreds of pages devoted to him.

It's certainly no surprise he gets so much attention here, for the reasons you give. Whether it's good or healthy that we're so fascinated is a slightly different question. I posted this (source (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRBsaJPkt2Q)) 100 pages ago:

Quote from: popcorn on May 12, 2020, 11:54:42 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/bVRYjMn.png)

The online bickering and grotty middle-aged Britishness of it all. Truly, a mirror.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 20, 2020, 07:14:26 PM
Boring. 
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: evilcommiedictator on June 20, 2020, 11:52:41 PM
Quote from: popcorn on June 20, 2020, 06:58:51 PM
The online bickering and grotty middle-aged Britishness of it all. Truly, a mirror.

Maybe even a Black Mirror
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on June 21, 2020, 12:03:46 AM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 20, 2020, 03:25:31 PM
Why all the gnashing of teeth over how much we talk about him? He used to be one of the biggest names in UK comedy, instrumental parts of some of CaB's best-loved shows, and he's trashed his career and his family because he's incapable of not being a bastard on Twitter. No surprise we have hundreds of pages devoted to him.

(Not picking on you specifically, Polymorphia, I've just noticed it in this thread more than others).

I'm not surprised it has become even more neurotic to a 'can't look away' level since lockdown because people have more time on their hands now and it is an even which seems to be in flux, has stakes and could go either way. That's interesting, but I think being more objective, the issue/event isn't so interesting it warrants a 'Live Text Updates' level of input on his every movement, whether he wrote comedies in the 90s or not. It is worth consciously stepping back and asking if the priapism over this is healthy.

If it was so normal to produce hundreds of pages about 1 individual involved in comedy in just a few months there would probably be several equatable examples.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 21, 2020, 12:23:18 AM
Quote from: idunnosomename on June 20, 2020, 03:57:46 PM
i mean I also think it's important how making fun of his racecar bed and carbonara kits contributes towards the discussion of the insidious pushback on the human rights of transpeople by certain parts of the media, dodgy astroturf groups like the LGB Alliance and the current governments here and abroad.

Genuinely interested to know how many here became a bit clued-up on trans rights as a result of Glinner's activity? I've said before when I first started being active and less lurky that I was pleasantly surprised at the pretty positive attitudes towards trans people here.

Shoulders is probably right about the level of interest, but if it's in-fact been educating then it's been worth it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 12:26:05 AM
Can the milk monitors not piss off to their own thread?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 12:41:45 AM
Seriously, why can't we just have actual discussions on here now, without threads being constantly derailed by people who have limited (or no) interest in the main topic, who just sit around waiting for a chance to drag it all off topic and subject us to the exact same repetitive meta discussions?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Danger Man on June 21, 2020, 12:57:17 AM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 12:41:45 AM
Seriously, why can't we just have actual discussions on here now

Well, one reason might be ...oh forget it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on June 21, 2020, 01:15:01 AM
Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on June 21, 2020, 12:03:46 AM
If it was so normal to produce hundreds of pages about 1 individual involved in comedy in just a few months there would probably be several equatable examples.

Can you think of an equitable individual?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Thursday on June 21, 2020, 01:25:06 AM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 12:41:45 AM
Seriously, why can't we just have actual discussions on here now, without threads being constantly derailed by people who have limited (or no) interest in the main topic, who just sit around waiting for a chance to drag it all off topic and subject us to the exact same repetitive meta discussions?

Can you keep your posts complaining about people dragging threads off topic into meta-discussions to another thread please?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 02:10:24 AM
:-). But do you see me going into, for instance, the thread about beer, and trying to irritate everyone there by pointing out that it's probably not remotely healthy to want to discuss alcohol every single day, over the course of hundreds of posts? Or pointing out that people who are incredibly obsessed with alcohol are boring and abnormal and should consider talking about my interests instead?

No, I'm not interested so I leave people to it.

So to clarify: that's the shit I really object to. The backseat moderators who feel compelled to come in every 20 pages and shit all over the discussion just to be annoying, and try to turn the focus round to them instead.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: sambwel on June 21, 2020, 04:12:10 AM
Quote from: popcorn on June 20, 2020, 06:58:51 PM
Whether it's good or healthy that we're so fascinated is a slightly different question. I posted this (source (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRBsaJPkt2Q)) 100 pages ago:
Quote from: popcorn on May 12, 2020, 11:54:42 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/bVRYjMn.png)

I don't think that's really relevant, for a lot of reasons, but I'll boil it down to two:

The first is that we are not "A-Logging". We're not trolling Glinner or encouraging others to do so. He is behaving this way of his own accord. We are observing from a distance and talking amongst ourselves.

The second is that we are not actually "cringing". To cringe is to identify with the subject and feel revulsion at the aspects of yourself that you see in them. The closest anyone here comes to identification with Glinner is having been a fan of his work at some point. Any schadenfreude expressed in this thread is born of anger at the genuine harm he's constantly doing his best to inflict on people much less fortunate than him. And regardless of his much-speculated-on mental state, it's nothing like bullying some poor autistic nerd because they remind us that we're not getting laid because we too have Sonic the Hedgehog posters on our walls or whatever.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on June 21, 2020, 07:40:12 AM
Yea this berk and the whole gang of terf berks are interesting,  both in terms of the changes in trans rights in the public sphere, and in terms of twitter boomers radicalising themselves on the Internet. I don't think that contrapoints bit applies here
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phes on June 21, 2020, 08:37:08 AM
Edit dp
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: markburgle on June 21, 2020, 10:02:24 AM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 21, 2020, 12:23:18 AM
Genuinely interested to know how many here became a bit clued-up on trans rights as a result of Glinner's activity?

There were several people who said exactly that a few pages back and I'd add myself to that list. While I used to have, as someone else said, a "live and let live" attitude for the most part, my tendency of impatience/irritablity towards some social-justice related things did extend towards people declaring themselves non-binary (thankfully something I kept to myself).

I used to see the "GL is a transphobe" thread title and assume it was probably fuss over nothing, but after reading it I'm much less of an ignorant arse (I found JK's piece and the dissections of it v. helpful in this regard, being one of those who failed to spot a lot of the dodgy stuff in it).

I'm really grateful for the education actually
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bushwick on June 21, 2020, 10:52:31 AM
I would agree that GL's descent has been educational for anyone watching it - the levels of obsession/madness on show are not a good advertisement for his cause. Combined with good people like Contrapoints, Paris Lees etc having more of a voice and the increasing likelihood that you may know someone who's trans or NB as folk hopefully become more comfortable to be their real selves etc. I know a fair few people who have become more clued up on trans/NB rights as a result of looking into glinner's hysteria.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: C_Larence on June 21, 2020, 12:10:10 PM
Quote from: Polymorphia on May 11, 2020, 11:07:16 PM
If this is not the last thread, I will give someone 200 pounds in cash. Or a cheque for 230.
An Alan Partridge reference I admit, but the last thread lasted 3 months, and there's no chance at this point he can go another 3 months, so I am genuine with this...

Actually, I'm tempted to rescind that offer, since looking at him he might well go on forever, and I can't afford the bet...

I'd like to claim this please
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Armin Meiwes on June 21, 2020, 12:45:20 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 21, 2020, 12:23:18 AM
Genuinely interested to know how many here became a bit clued-up on trans rights as a result of Glinner's activity? I've said before when I first started being active and less lurky that I was pleasantly surprised at the pretty positive attitudes towards trans people here.

Shoulders is probably right about the level of interest, but if it's in-fact been educating then it's been worth it.

It definitely made me read up on it more to try to have a better understanding of the issues, although even without doing that you can immediately see what a bunch of disingenuous wankers they are just from the tactics they deploy.

Think the first time I was made aware of TERF culture was watching Transparent though.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: billyandthecloneasaurus on June 21, 2020, 04:44:42 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 02:10:24 AM
:-). But do you see me going into, for instance, the thread about beer, and trying to irritate everyone there by pointing out that it's probably not remotely healthy to want to discuss alcohol every single day, over the course of hundreds of posts? Or pointing out that people who are incredibly obsessed with alcohol are boring and abnormal and should consider talking about my interests instead?

No, I'm not interested so I leave people to it.

So to clarify: that's the shit I really object to. The backseat moderators who feel compelled to come in every 20 pages and shit all over the discussion just to be annoying, and try to turn the focus round to them instead.

i dunno, i'm an avid reader of this thread, but i think he has a point.  sometimes it's healthy to have someone say "what're you up to lads??", even if you disagree.  i mean, you do get backseat moderators on here at times, full on UM CAN YOU STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS?? BORING!!, but this ain't it.  with respect, like.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 05:02:59 PM
An "avid reader" yet you don't recall all the other times he's shat on the thread to get a rise out of people?

First example that comes up in Google:

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on January 25, 2019, 09:52:57 AM
Still trying to work out why anyone gives a shit at this point what one middle aged has been writer thinks about trans issues and mental health beyond simply "hmm, oh dear " and moving on.

Surely the disappointment of learning that he doesn't harbour the same opinions and argues like a tosser when confronted should have receded several years ago

The same people who tell CaB members not to feed trolls are the first ones to give them attention via twitter.




Split all this off now, and will be doing the same with any further attempts at derailment.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 21, 2020, 05:04:26 PM
Nout wrong with a bit of self-reflection. Unless it's just telling others to (in Glinner's words) "Shut UP, Fuck OFF"
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on June 21, 2020, 05:06:23 PM
Quote from: markburgle on June 21, 2020, 10:02:24 AM
While I used to have, as someone else said, a "live and let live" attitude for the most part [...] I'm really grateful for the education actually

Yeah, I'd say I was in the same boat. Following the Glinner saga has made some abstract thing on the edge of my consciousness much more concrete and relatable.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on June 21, 2020, 05:07:50 PM
Quote from: sambwel on June 21, 2020, 04:12:10 AM
The closest anyone here comes to identification with Glinner is having been a fan of his work at some point.
I posted a thread called going a bit glinner (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,78032.msg4097830.html#msg4097830).

Not about becoming a transphobe, but something in the pattern of probably-counterproductive outrage.

QuoteThe first is that we are not "A-Logging".
I think that's irrelevant to the analysis of cringing.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ornlu on June 21, 2020, 05:44:18 PM
The fact this thread exists is embarrassing. It's probably given Graham a right old chuckle.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on June 21, 2020, 05:53:49 PM
Quote from: Ornlu on June 21, 2020, 05:44:18 PM
The fact this thread exists is embarrassing. It's probably given Graham a right old chuckle.

i doubt it
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on June 21, 2020, 05:59:54 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 05:02:59 PMSplit all this off now, and will be doing the same with any further attempts at derailment.

Hah, you trying to save Polymorphia's bet?


Only kidding, obviously. :-)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 06:16:43 PM
Quote from: Ornlu on June 21, 2020, 05:44:18 PM
The fact this thread exists is embarrassing. It's probably given Graham a right old chuckle.

This thread would not be required if people would stop being pushy control freaks.

Bear in mind that Shoulders also recently gave me a public ultimatum with regards banning a poster he didn't like, and then carried through on his threat to shit up all the threads the guy posted in.

The constant self-important thread policing and backseat moderating is boiling my piss, and stops now.

Edit: oh, and I also had to remove a post from the Linehan thread last week where he was spamming those fucking zoom chats. I see he's also been spamming some Twitter account and website. It's fucking ridiculous that people can engage in this continuous cunty, self-regarding disrespectful behaviour.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on June 21, 2020, 06:21:00 PM
just ban the bald twat*

*joking
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on June 21, 2020, 06:22:38 PM
QuoteThe backseat moderators who feel compelled to come in every 20 pages and shit all over the discussion just to be annoying,

The remarks about my contributions to a thread about beer are unworthy and come across spitefully. There have been 2 threads in what - 10 years? Also should there have been any hypocrisy to highlight (there isn't) it would not have invalidated the argument, so I don't understand why that has been brought up.

I agree the Glinner phenomena is on some level interesting and has been educational. I wouldn't have posted the post I posted 18 months ago now (quoted above), for instance. People do develop and alter their views. Nearly all of my posts on the Glinner thread since then have been on topic, so I think this reaction has lost perspective and feels unfair.

My last post also concedes that inevitably with less to do in lockdown people are looking around for things to do, much as I am. I acknowledged that.

My recent post on the topic is from genuine concern about hanging on one person's every move because that takes it past any academic interest in the wider topic to a level of voyeurism which may be tempting but isn't particularly healthy. I'm sure the cheap shots about Glinner's marriage break up aren't from a noble desire to understand trans rights but because people are spectating on it like a soap opera and enjoying the bit where the bad guy gets his just desserts. Fine when watching telly, a bit less when these are real people. That may not be a sensitivity other people share, so fine.

I appreciate being challenged about that may be provocative and that it takes a degree of magnanimity to reflect on.
I took the opportunity when challenged about posts such as the above to reflect on it and appreciate the arguments others made. Several others on the thread have raised the same points as this and I know from speaking about the matter outside the forum that's a view shared by others.

If you think that I'm coming from a place of bad faith and they aren't then contest the matter with them and I'll go back to ignoring the Glinner threads (as I had been doing for months at a time) and when challenged on previous topics about similar behaviour where I have voluntarily dropped all involvement.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on June 21, 2020, 06:24:51 PM
Y'know , I reckon that underneath it all,  the Glinner is a great bunch of lads.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: popcorn on June 21, 2020, 06:54:44 PM
Quote from: sambwel on June 21, 2020, 04:12:10 AM
The first is that we are not "A-Logging". We're not trolling Glinner or encouraging others to do so. He is behaving this way of his own accord. We are observing from a distance and talking amongst ourselves.

I can't remember from the video was "A-logging" means but of course no one here is trolling or bullying Glinner, that isn't really my point. My point is that we're cringing at him.

QuoteThe second is that we are not actually "cringing". To cringe is to identify with the subject and feel revulsion at the aspects of yourself that you see in them. The closest anyone here comes to identification with Glinner is having been a fan of his work at some point.

I guess I'm only speaking for myself here, but in my many years On The Internet I have got involved in a fair few arguments where the ranks have closed on me and I've felt frustrated about it. Part of the reason I find the Glinner situation so weirdly compelling is that I do think there is some part of me that could potentially go Glinner one day - to lose the plot so deeply that I really do end up dying on the wrong hill (and I hate that phrase). I mean, I don't actually think that, but it's the conscious recognition of something. There's nothing otherwise particularly interesting about the situation, which is otherwise just sad and seedy.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 21, 2020, 07:09:02 PM
I don't go in the Glinner threads, don't think I ever have, simply don't have the time.  But love the titles - this latest one, every time I see it, it makes me feel happy, just knowing they're out there, in the same universe, like baby Honduran White Bats in the fold of a leaf, brings me joy.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ferris on June 21, 2020, 07:16:53 PM
I understand the urge to look away, and follow exactly what other posters mean. I'm also a bit wary of his personal life - it's not public in the same way a high profile comedy writer tweeting his guff is clearly in the public sphere and fair game for comment. Does his twitter output need constant comment? I'd say yes to some extent, because he is constantly picking new and interesting avenues to have a pop at vulnerable people.

To take a point from the man himself - if we don't say anything, we are silently condoning his behaviour. If we say "what the fucks he going on about now, that seems beyond the pale and what a dick he is being" then we're making it clear for anyone who stumbles across the thread that what he's saying is not ok (and the thread is not interacting with him or encouraging anyone else to do so), I think it's reasonable.

It is a double edged point.

More fencesitting bullshit from Ferris. Discard my opinion directly into the "pleases nobody" bin.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Spiral King on June 21, 2020, 07:57:28 PM
A small correction from that image, as I don't think it's super clear/accurate: "A-logging" is basically "being cross at the internet" to an unhealthy degree, often as a way to disguise from ones own shortcomings[nb]The term derives from Anthony Logatto, who would obsessively disparage Christian/Christine Weston Chandler, when he was really no better in a myriad of ways.[/nb]. I'd say that sort of covers what happens in the Glinner thread, but who cares? He's awful, it's his thread and as Neil said, to try and police it is kinda tedious behaviour.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dewt on June 21, 2020, 07:59:33 PM
Glinner is talked about a lot

That's because the entire situation is fascinating and galling. That's all.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on June 21, 2020, 08:08:52 PM
Quote from: popcorn on June 21, 2020, 06:54:44 PM
to lose the plot so deeply that I really do end up dying on the wrong hill
I don't think it even has to be the wrong hill - it's simply the self-destructive counter-productiveness[nb]Or so I hope, in his case.[nb] in large part.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Danger Man on June 21, 2020, 11:44:48 PM
Quote from: Danger Man on June 21, 2020, 12:57:17 AM
Well, one reason might be ...oh forget it.

Oh thank God. I was a bit tipsy last night and woke up today thinking I posted the post I was going to post.

But I only posted this.

It's your forum Neil and you're the boss. Even when I strongly disagree with you at times!

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Old Nehamkin on June 21, 2020, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Danger Man on June 21, 2020, 11:44:48 PM
Oh thank God. I was a bit tipsy last night and woke up today thinking I posted the post I was going to post.

But I only posted this.

COOK'D AND BOMB'D BOURGEOIS COMPLACENCY STATUS: UNSHAKEN
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 21, 2020, 11:55:00 PM
I knew you were likely trying to pin the blame on me anyway. Didn't care then, don't care now. I'm more hands on and bossy with the forum at the minute because covid has made it a fucking nightmare to deal with this year, and it feels like that is required.  Some dude flounced because I temporarily changed the name of the subforum, for goodness sake. You can't win so I do what I think is best, not what other people want me to do

All I want is to try and keep this place interesting to read, and I think that threads which (broadly) stay on topic are interesting, whereas threads that are constantly micromanaged by backseat moderators - and dragged offtopic or turned into repetitive meta discussions - are not.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mr_Simnock on June 22, 2020, 12:16:11 AM
I think you should get help with managing the site, like in the first 3-4 years, take a bit of the pressure and work off you, you have given too much of yourself over the years.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on June 22, 2020, 12:56:10 AM
Quote from: Danger Man on June 21, 2020, 11:44:48 PM
Oh thank God. I was a bit tipsy last night and woke up today thinking I posted the post I was going to post.

But I only posted this.

go on, what do you have to lose?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Danger Man on June 22, 2020, 01:01:02 AM
I'll pass.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Captain Z on June 22, 2020, 01:03:37 AM
People say the Glinner stuff has run its course, I reckon it's just getting started. Glinner 6 will have to become pinned.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: sambwel on June 22, 2020, 08:57:11 AM
Based on the responses to my remarks, I admit I was wrong, some of you ARE cringing. In which case,

(https://i.imgur.com/Z1eIy.gif)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on June 22, 2020, 09:13:44 AM
Love how there pops up a thread called

PEDDANTS:a thread where YOU can be a pissy little can-I-talk-to-the-manager wanker

And we're all like

OOOH DON'T MIND IF I DOOOOO
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Puce Moment on June 22, 2020, 09:47:30 AM
Threads I do not visit:

Cricket

Doctor Who

Game of Thrones
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chollis on June 22, 2020, 09:53:36 AM
wrestling

i mean come on
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 10:03:45 AM
Also, Beer, Maddie and Phwoar.

I know. Joyless.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: pigamus on June 22, 2020, 10:25:15 AM
What do you all want - a cookie?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Puce Moment on June 22, 2020, 10:25:41 AM
You're not wrong, but that Maddie thread is soooooo enticing.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Puce Moment on June 22, 2020, 10:29:06 AM
Quote from: pigamus on June 22, 2020, 10:25:15 AMWhat do you all want - a cookie?

Something like that - anything that rewards restraint really.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 10:38:10 AM
Virtue is its own reward.  Fuck your cookies.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 10:38:20 AM
Does it really matter if Glinner has a hangup about this particular issue?

I can understand the impulse to attack Gervais for his treatment of the disabled, because he wrote, directed and starred in multiple series and specials in two separate shows about them, and it was all emblematic of his ignorance and patronising sentimentality on the subject. But Glinner hasn't made a show about trans people, and I doubt he ever will.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 10:41:12 AM
Austen had it when she wrote

QuoteFor what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?

Glinner's abject and evil insanity on this subject is so outstanding, so remarkable, it deserves examination.  There is something in the extreme nature of his position and his deranged intolerance, that promotes a sort of relief and following that, mirth, bordering on hysteria, that we are not so mad nor cursed nor driven to publicly debase ourselves, as he obviously is.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Danger Man on June 22, 2020, 10:43:23 AM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 10:38:20 AM
But Glinner hasn't made a show about trans people, and I doubt he ever will.

One episode of the IT Crowd was about a trans person and is where all this started.

Ironically, the IT Crowd had another episode (The Work Outing) that had ridiculous caricatures of gay people. But the Gs have to look after themselves now, it's all about the Ts!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: Danger Man on June 22, 2020, 10:43:23 AM
One episode of the IT Crowd was about a trans person and is where all this started.

Fair enough, I didn't know that. I dropped out after the first series.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Danger Man on June 22, 2020, 10:54:26 AM
2nd series is the only one worth watching. They stopped shouting for a start....
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 11:47:56 AM
The threads aren't just about Graham Linehan. They also closely follow the manufactured culture war against trans people. Linehan has been instrumental in fomenting this movement for the last few years, but it's also got big, American right-wing money behind it, and is now having a real and tangible impact on the rights of an oppressed minority. All the homophobic arguments and tactics I recall observing in my youth are just being rolled out again and used against trans people, at a moment of so-called fucking introspection and progress, when statues are going swimming, pigs are kneeling, and Uncle Ben is fucking off forever.

Occasionally the threads can get a tad too... "hate-site" for my tastes, and I'll tell people off a bit. Then, invariably, Linehan will do something so breathtakingly, calculatedly cunty that I'll lose my temper and remember exactly why people have that visceral response to his bullshit. What he's doing is truly, unrelentingly despicable, and the more people calling him out for his bullshit - and standing with trans people - the better.

It gets boring having to regularly defend the threads, but I've always said I stand by them, and I'll continue to do so, Karens. If you think they're just about a sort of mean-spirited milking of a sad old lolcow who has torched his whole life and career because he couldn't handle the backlash to one episode of his sitcom, then you're doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on June 22, 2020, 02:14:49 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 11:47:56 AM
Karens

Nrrrrrgh, I was with you until then ;)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on June 22, 2020, 02:21:29 PM
Quote from: Puce Moment on June 22, 2020, 09:47:30 AM
Threads I do not visit:

Cricket

Doctor Who

Game of Thrones

I remember back when I used to watch The X Factor people would visit the thread just to add a sneery tag about how shit they thought it was. I always thought that was a bit mean-spirited- Big Brother has always been popular here and while I find that utterly baffling I also feel no need to visit those threads for a bit of a sneer. We have different tastes in shit reality TV, so what.

I have no interest in Game of Thrones or cricket and I only like Doctor Who a bit but with a bajillion other threads to read on here it's not hard to avoid those things. Those mega-threads keep things nicely contained too.

It's like those people who whine about Justin Bieber or the Kardashians as if we're all forced to watch Justin Bieber's VEVO and whatever non-terrestrial pay channel the Kardashians are on.

Title: I love those mother-fucking Kardashians
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 02:31:47 PM
It is, although I would say, IMO, there could be very little more vacuous or boring than a fifty-pager with different versions of Hey, love those mother-fucking Kardashians repeated in every post.  As you so rightly say, were such a thing to exist, it could be avoided.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 02:32:25 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 11:47:56 AM
The threads aren't just about Graham Linehan. They also closely follow the manufactured culture war against trans people.

Okay, I understand that. But does it not mean that Linehan has become a lightning rod for a wider anger? I have to wonder if that's fair, for him to take the full brunt. It might explain why he's so agitated and splapdash with his responses on social media.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 02:34:43 PM
It's no ones fault but Glinner's that he's such a cunt.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 02:41:25 PM
It's very easy to lose your footing - and your temper - if you think you're being attacked from all sides. That can turn a man petulant.

But I'm not gonna leap to his defence because I haven't actually read his Twitter and the rest of it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 02:43:45 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 02:32:25 PM
Okay, I understand that. But does it not mean that Linehan has become a lightning rod for a wider anger? I have to wonder if that's fair, for him to take the full brunt. It might explain why he's so agitated and splapdash with his responses on social media.

"...they should put up a statue in Trafalgar Square to the nanny, Louise Woodward." (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygxi_vBFerc)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on June 22, 2020, 02:47:31 PM
You're giving more consideration to Glinner's feelings than he has given to any one of the dozens and dozens of marginalized people (including kids) who he has insulted, mocked and implied are child molesters to his half a million followers.

Fuck Glinner. He's a cunt. Fuck him. It's really no more complex than that.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: earl_sleek on June 22, 2020, 02:56:39 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 02:32:25 PM
Okay, I understand that. But does it not mean that Linehan has become a lightning rod for a wider anger? I have to wonder if that's fair, for him to take the full brunt. It might explain why he's so agitated and splapdash with his responses on social media.

Of course it's fair. He wants to be a leader of the transphobes[nb]I refuse to call them 'gender-critical'[/nb]. If he's not up for taking some shit then he aleays has the option of taking a back seat.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chollis on June 22, 2020, 02:59:07 PM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 22, 2020, 02:47:31 PM
You're giving more consideration to Glinner's feelings than he has given to any one of the dozens and dozens of marginalized people (including kids) who he has insulted, mocked and implied are child molesters to his half a million followers.

Fuck Glinner. He's a cunt. Fuck him. It's really no more complex than that.

+
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: thenoise on June 22, 2020, 03:02:18 PM
Quote from: Mr_Simnock on June 22, 2020, 12:16:11 AM
I think you should get help with managing the site, like in the first 3-4 years, take a bit of the pressure and work off you, you have given too much of yourself over the years.

Our arch nemeses female equivalents at Mumsnet employ a staff of half a dozen to keep their hoards of acronym abusers in check. This place is looked after by Barry with his mobile phone on the bus.

So behave yourselves!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:05:06 PM
Quote from: earl_sleek on June 22, 2020, 02:56:39 PM
Of course it's fair. He wants to be a leader of the transphobes.

Well. Is that true? Did he crown himself the glorious new fuhrer of the transphobes? Or is it, possibly, that he has low impulse control, can't let a comment go unanswered and gets baited into all this? Bearing in mind that he's Irish and probably drunk for 99% of his life.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Thursday on June 22, 2020, 03:07:56 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:05:06 PM
Bearing in mind that he's Irish and probably drunk for 99% of his life.

Christ, you really don't do yourself any favours do you.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 03:13:56 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:05:06 PM
Well. Is that true? Did he crown himself the glorious new fuhrer of the transphobes? Or is it, possibly, that he has low impulse control, can't let a comment go unanswered and gets baited into all this? Bearing in mind that he's Irish and probably drunk for 99% of his life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: Thursday on June 22, 2020, 03:07:56 PM
Christ, you really don't do yourself any favours do you.

But it's true. Linehan would never admit this, but Father Jack was his self-insert character.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:19:53 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 03:13:56 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Oh no, a wikipedia theory! You've really caught me with my trousers down this time.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: marquis_de_sad on June 22, 2020, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 02:41:25 PM
But I'm not gonna leap to his defence because I haven't actually read his Twitter and the rest of it.

Proceeds to leap multiple times...
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 03:24:16 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:19:53 PM
Oh no, a wikipedia theory! You've really caught me with my trousers down this time.

She did aye. This thread split was entirely for attention-seeking contrarians like you, so knock yourself out.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 03:29:49 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:19:53 PM
Oh no, a wikipedia theory! You've really caught me with my trousers down this time.

What is this expression "wikipedia theory"?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bernice on June 22, 2020, 03:31:10 PM
I don't really think it's healthy the way some people are obsessed with defending Graham Linehan.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 03:33:59 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:05:06 PM
Well. Is that true? Did he crown himself the glorious new fuhrer of the transphobes? Or is it, possibly, that he has low impulse control, can't let a comment go unanswered and gets baited into all this? Bearing in mind that he's Irish and probably drunk for 99% of his life.

What's your excuse?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:34:20 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 03:24:16 PM
She did aye. This thread split was entirely for attention-seeking contrarians like you, so knock yourself out.

So the slightest bit of pushback or 'I'm-not-sure-about-that' gets me othered as a contrarian. I thought I made it clear that I'm not jumping on board with his agenda. I just think it's understandable that a guy could dig his heels in and go on the defensive, against people who are wagging their fingers and telling him off. Grown men don't like to be told off, they react badly. Maybe - and I'm just saying maybe - that is what happened with Glinner.

Has anyone ever tried to open a level-headed dialogue with him about this? Or has it all been 'You must get on hands and knees and apologise to our mob?'
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 03:35:24 PM
Why don't you check? Then come and tell people the answer.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on June 22, 2020, 03:35:47 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:34:20 PM
So the slightest bit of pushback or 'I'm-not-sure-about-that' gets me othered as a contrarian. I thought I made it clear that I'm not jumping on board with his agenda. I just think it's understandable that a guy could dig his heels in and go on the defensive, against people who are wagging their fingers and telling him off. Grown men don't like to be told off, they react badly. Maybe - and I'm just saying maybe - that is what happened with Glinner.

Has anyone ever tried to open a level-headed dialogue with him about this? Or has it all been 'You must get on hands and knees and apologise to our mob?'

I think people are getting irritated with you because you keep asking questions that you are quite capable of finding out the answers to.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: earl_sleek on June 22, 2020, 03:35:59 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:05:06 PM
Well. Is that true? Did he crown himself the glorious new fuhrer of the transphobes? Or is it, possibly, that he has low impulse control, can't let a comment go unanswered and gets baited into all this? Bearing in mind that he's Irish and probably drunk for 99% of his life.

He actively searches out conversations that don't involve him, between people that are nothing to do with him, and butts into them. He cannot then in good faith complain that he gets responses.

But anyway he loves it. Loves feeling he's part of something, that he's an important part of the milieu, even loves people disagreeing with him because it just proves him right! Sympathy for him is misplaced, he's a pig in shit. A pig in shit that shits out its shit onto other pigs' faces, then scolds them for having, shitty, piggy faces, before licking the shit off, the fucking shitty pig.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:34:20 PM
So the slightest bit of pushback or 'I'm-not-sure-about-that' gets me othered as a contrarian.

Think your post pretty perfectly exemplifies Barry's reason for splitting the thread.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on June 22, 2020, 03:46:46 PM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 22, 2020, 02:47:31 PM
You're giving more consideration to Glinner's feelings than he has given to any one of the dozens and dozens of marginalized people (including kids) who he has insulted, mocked and implied are child molesters to his half a million followers.

Fuck Glinner. He's a cunt. Fuck him. It's really no more complex than that.
Absolutely.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:48:53 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 03:37:11 PM
Think your post pretty perfectly exemplifies Barry's reason for splitting the thread.

You have earned one Golden & Official Barry Pat On The Head.

Quote from: earl_sleek on June 22, 2020, 03:35:59 PM
He actively searches out conversations that don't involve him, between people that are nothing to do with him, and butts into them. He cannot then in good faith complain that he gets responses.

Now this is more what I was looking for. When people say I should research myself, I have to ask, 'What am I supposed to trawl through years of his Twitter feed?' And I expect half of it is deleted/edited now anyway.

But you've given me a more solid idea of things. And if that is what he does, well. Okay maybe he is just a tit then.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 03:51:31 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:48:53 PM
You have earned one Golden & Official Barry Pat On The Head.

Why do you feel this way?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: David Pielingtonburygrot on June 22, 2020, 04:03:24 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:48:53 PM
You have earned one Golden & Official Barry Pat On The Head.

Now this is more what I was looking for. When people say I should research myself, I have to ask, 'What am I supposed to trawl through years of his Twitter feed?' And I expect half of it is deleted/edited now anyway.

But you've given me a more solid idea of things. And if that is what he does, well. Okay maybe he is just a tit then.

mate, what you're doing is an absolutely archetypal example of daisychaining:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/daisychaining
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 04:08:38 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 03:51:31 PM
Why do you feel this way?

Why don't I suck up to Barry? Because his ego is big enough already.

Quote from: David Pielingtonburygrot on June 22, 2020, 04:03:24 PM
mate, what you're doing is an absolutely archetypal example of daisychaining:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/daisychaining

I've been called a sea-lioner, a daisychainer. All sorts of things. What people don't know is that I'm actually a shrub rocketeer.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 04:11:39 PM
Right now, you're being a fucking twat.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 04:13:00 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:34:20 PM
Has anyone ever tried to open a level-headed dialogue with him about this? Or has it all been 'You must get on hands and knees and apologise to our mob?'

Only probably tens of thousands of people.

Your anti-Irish bigotry is gross. Hundreds of pages of people slagging off Glinner and none of them make some 1970s-era anti-Irish 'joke', and then some 'maybe both sides' person pops up and says 'Irish = alcoholics, amirite? lols.'
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on June 22, 2020, 04:18:36 PM
I don't think he's an anti-Irish bigot, it was just a poorly-timed joke.

But seriously, DttN, go to Google and type in "Graham Linehan transphobia" and read some of that.

It might not answer all your questions, but it's at least a starting point.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 04:19:29 PM
Quote from: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 04:13:00 PM
Your anti-Irish bigotry is gross.

Gross? Is it icky and yucky too?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on June 22, 2020, 04:24:52 PM
Having read this thread, I feel much better about how much Bosto's wind-ups get a rise out of me.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 04:27:52 PM
We should maybe consider not starting a support group.

Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 22, 2020, 04:18:36 PM
I don't think he's an anti-Irish bigot, it was just a poorly-timed joke.

Surely it's the English who are famous for their lack of control where alcohol is concerned.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 04:32:49 PM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on June 22, 2020, 04:18:36 PM
I don't think he's an anti-Irish bigot, it was just a poorly-timed joke.

But seriously, DttN, go to Google and type in "Graham Linehan transphobia" and read some of that.

It might not answer all your questions, but it's at least a starting point.

I'll look it up, properly, before I post again.

I am a militant anti-Irish bigot though.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 04:34:44 PM
You want to stop that.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: marquis_de_sad on June 22, 2020, 04:37:28 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 03:29:49 PM
What is this expression "wikipedia theory"?

It's the title of an unreleased album by Linkin Park.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Puce Moment on June 22, 2020, 04:43:59 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 10:38:20 AMBut Glinner hasn't made a show about trans people, and I doubt he ever will.

Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 10:48:42 AMFair enough, I didn't know that. I dropped out after the first series.

Seriously though - so many opinions and comments and yet so little awareness of what the fuck is actually happening. An interesting form of thread-shitting you have developed there.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on June 22, 2020, 04:56:47 PM
Quote from: Puce Moment on June 22, 2020, 04:43:59 PM
An interesting form of thread-shitting you have developed there.

he's merely keeping the thread on topic
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2020, 05:02:14 PM
Oh, default to the negative is just a bellend, wading into a debate he has no knowledge of, forming an opinion from the position of complete ignorance and expecting everyone else to do his research for him.

I like it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Puce Moment on June 22, 2020, 05:04:34 PM
Quote from: chveik on June 22, 2020, 04:56:47 PMhe's merely keeping the thread on topic

So am I mate. So am I.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 05:49:50 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 03:24:16 PM
This thread split was entirely for attention-seeking contrarians like you, so knock yourself out.

See, Barry gave me free license. He made this thread as containment zone for people like me. So I have free reign, don't I? This is the special playground.

I looked up 'Graham Linehan Transphobia', as suggested. I have to admit, he seems to be taking this on as some kind of cause. He should probably go and be quiet for a while.

BUT I think there is still a provocation here, something that made him so obstinate in the first place.

QuoteThe award-winning Father Ted, Black Books, and The IT Crowd writer (who is currently co-writing a Father Ted musical) became involved in the issue after an episode of The IT Crowd in which Douglas Reynholm's character unknowingly dates a woman who turns out to be transgender.

"I thought the episode was harmless. Though it could have been better," Linehan says. After it aired, he was called a bigot on Twitter. Linehan distinguishes between the character, who is transphobic, and calling the episode, or himself, transphobic.

"Some people don't see the problem repeating the dogma [that] trans women are women," says Linehan, who has a problem with "privileged white people saying you must accept anyone who says they are a woman".

"Some people have a seriously held belief that trans women are literally women. So if someone who identifies as a woman is attracted to a woman, they are considered a lesbian. There have been protests at pride parades in London and New Zealand, from lesbians who say this is affecting lesbians on the ground."

Linehan says he is astonished the argument has got so far. "A lot of transgender people agree with me. I'm not transphobic. Because of this debate, I now have a number of friends who are trans, and they don't agree with this dogma."

Well. Is it so hard to consider his point of view? You don't have to agree with it, to consider it. Maybe his views are outdated, but there's no need to burn him in a big Celtic wickerman, which is what most of you seem to want.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on June 22, 2020, 05:51:03 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 03:19:53 PM
Oh no, a wikipedia theory! You've really caught me with my trousers down this time.

You were being a nob like that sealion tho
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on June 22, 2020, 05:55:01 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on June 22, 2020, 04:24:52 PM
Having read this thread, I feel much better about how much Bosto's wind-ups get a rise out of me.

Fair play to him, he has a system, it's a well oiled machine, it works. No shame in getting bostod. Guys a pro
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on June 22, 2020, 05:51:03 PM
You were being a nob like that sealion tho

Everyone is a nob on here. I make no apologies for meeting nobbery with nobbery.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 07:22:33 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 05:49:50 PM
BUT I think there is still a provocation here, something that made him so obstinate in the first place.

This is such dull, obvious bait. People are mean to Glinner so that justifies him waging a hate campaign against people such as myself. If you're seriously not trolling, really consider the distance you have and the position you're in where you can just treat this as 'debate' and not a life or death issue.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 07:22:33 PM
really consider the distance you have and the position you're in where you can just treat this as 'debate' and not a life or death issue.

Glinner-bashing is a life or death issue?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 07:33:28 PM
Just to clarify: there's no doubt that he's trolling, it's what he does. When he's particularly drunk/needy he starts cracking out the ablelism and misogyny - he's on a final warning so has been trying to sail as close to the wire as possible in this thread with the Irish comments etc.

You were bang on with the sealioning link, so I'd advise caution about getting particularly serious about the issues, because he will mock you for it and try to upset you for his own sad gratification.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 07:40:34 PM
Quote from: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 04:13:00 PM
Only probably tens of thousands of people.

Your anti-Irish bigotry is gross. Hundreds of pages of people slagging off Glinner and none of them make some 1970s-era anti-Irish 'joke', and then some 'maybe both sides' person pops up and says 'Irish = alcoholics, amirite? lols.'
To be fair, as a nation we aren't able to handle our drink in a sensible way. But I wouldn't expect a forum comprised largely of Tans to know anything about Ireland beyond stupid stereotypes and it being over there someplace. They don't know and don't want to know. Go ahead and mock us as drunks who can't produce incredible comedy. We wrote gay marriage into our Constitution. Did you? OH WAIT, you don't even have one.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2020, 07:42:58 PM
I dont know much about Ireland but I do love St Patty's Day.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 07:44:09 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 07:33:28 PM
I'd advise caution about getting particularly serious about the issues, because he will mock you for it and try to upset you for his own sad gratification.

Wonderful individual.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 07:51:24 PM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 07:40:34 PM
To be fair, as a nation we aren't able to handle our drink in a sensible way. But I wouldn't expect a forum comprised largely of Tans to know anything about Ireland beyond stupid stereotypes and it being over there someplace. They don't know and don't want to know. Go ahead and mock us as drunks who can't produce incredible comedy. We wrote gay marriage into our Constitution. Did you? OH WAIT, you don't even have one.

At the risk of repeating myself, I work in a place were tourists drink, I can promise you that it is the English who are renowned and despised for having no sense or control when it comes to drink, certainly in Europe.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chollis on June 22, 2020, 07:55:37 PM
english people are the absolute fucking worst
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 07:58:08 PM
Drunk English people, you mean.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 07:59:32 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

2016 data:

UK - 12l of pure alcohol per year per capita (6th in the OECD)
Ireland - 10.9l of pure alcohol per year per capita (12th in the OECD)

I'm not denying that we all like a bit of booze but Brits sneering at the Irish for drinking too much is just hypocritical.

My late Irish dad wouldn't have had much tolerance for a Brit making lazy stereotypes about the Irish and I am inclined to agree with him. By rights, the Irish should be just as pissed off at the Brits as the Iranians, if not moreso. It's frankly amazing that they don't despise us. Like 800 years of systematic oppression, exploitation and even genocide, ending within living memory? It's probably for the best if we are very nice about Irish people from now on.

I criticised my gf / baby momma for using the phrase 'throwing a paddy' the other day. We are so mean about the Irish - who we have been heartlessly cruel towards for centuries - that anti-Irish slurs have embedded themselves into our language without us even recognising them as being anti-Irish.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 08:04:03 PM
That's the English for you, can't even win at getting arseholed.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 08:10:45 PM
Quote from: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 07:51:24 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, I work in a place were tourists drink, I can promise you that it is the English who are renowned and despised for having no sense or control when it comes to drink, certainly in Europe.
English people drinking themselves into oblivion doesn't make what I said about Ireland as a nation having difficulty with drinking sensibly untrue. And there's this added layer of rural politicians or the Vintners' Federation of Ireland periodically arguing that the legal blood alcohol limit should be raised because rural pubs are dying and what are sixty year old bachelor farmers supposed to do to socialise. Of course we aren't the only country that has a problem with people drinking to excess. I'm Irish myself, living in Ireland, have lived here all my life. I can say it. Brits can't.

Quote from: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 07:59:32 PM
By rights, the Irish should be just as pissed off at the Brits as the Iranians, if not moreso. It's frankly amazing that they don't despise us.
It never went away. Brexit just stirred it all up.

Here's Brady Family Ham advertising with a jingle to the tune of explicitly anti-British rebel song "Come Out Ye Black and Tans":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVrHlxYXsmc

This ran on TV and radio in 2019. And it's not even just set to the tune of Black and Tans, the chorus has only replaced a couple of words to make it ham-related. You're supposed to go "omg XD" and remember the product.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 08:17:29 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 07:33:28 PM
Just to clarify: there's no doubt that he's trolling, it's what he does.

He says there's no doubt, but I say it's ambiguous. Did you ever see that film The Gift (2015). Not the Keanu and Blanchett film that came out way back. I mean the Joel Edgerton film from five years ago.

Yeah well. Barry is the Simon character in that film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3IiZU9JBuE
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 08:25:08 PM
You can't make me watch that.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2020, 08:26:30 PM
Quote from: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 07:58:08 PM
Drunk English people, you mean.

Nah he was correct.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 08:32:52 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 08:25:08 PM
You can't make me watch that.

Watch it! Watch my trashy B-grade exploitation thriller!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 08:35:42 PM
...
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 08:38:01 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 08:35:42 PM
How amazing that Ireland allows transgender folk to self-identify! We're still debating whether they should be allowed to exist.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 08:42:12 PM
innit weird how the only person who is attempting to excuse Graham Linehan's bigotry is also digging their heels in on it being okay to dismiss the Irish as a bunch of drunks?

If you're making shitty comments about a ethnic group, but 'you're just trolling,' that doesn't make it any better.

"I was just shitting on this ethnic group my people have shat on for centuries to yank your chain, lol. Don't take it so serious!"
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2020, 08:49:10 PM
My people? Hmm
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 08:51:37 PM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 08:38:01 PM
I think I understand his premise, even though I do no agree with his conclusions. The Irish have been consistent troublemakers, on the political stage and also on the everyday social level.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 08:56:20 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 08:51:37 PM
I think I understand his premise, even though I do no agree with his conclusions. The Irish Brits have been consistent troublemakers, on the political stage and also on the everyday social level.
ftfy
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 08:59:58 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 22, 2020, 08:49:10 PM
My people? Hmm

my people too. We Brits need to own our wrongdoing.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:02:21 PM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 08:56:20 PM
ftfy
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 09:04:18 PM
Hm? sorry, I'm busy enjoying not having to exchange my money when I go to France, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Greece...

so wonderful knowing whether I'm being ripped off or not without having to google exchange rates
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:07:39 PM
Yeah look at me, I can still trade my pennies in infamous economic disaster zones. Oh I so envy you bartering in Greece.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2020, 09:08:17 PM
Quote from: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 08:59:58 PM
my people too. We Brits need to own our wrongdoing.

Do you identify as British? I genuinely don't tbh. Never have done unless forced to on an equal opportunities form or what have you.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2020, 09:09:52 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:07:39 PM
Yeah look at me, I can still trade my pennies in infamous economic disaster zones. Oh I so envy you bartering in Greece.

Such strength.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/22/britain-nearly-went-bust-in-march-says-bank-of-england
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:12:17 PM
Yeah but I live in Scotland and there's still the chance of independence. We're gonna make a special silky deal with the Swedes. Or so Alec Salmond used to say...

...before the accusations. Before the Cosby times....
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on June 22, 2020, 09:15:47 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:12:17 PM
Yeah but I live in Scotland and there's still the chance of independence. We're gonna make a special silky deal with the Swedes. Or so Alec Salmond used to say...

...before the accusations. Before the Cosby times....
Fuck's sake. Imagine being Scottish and being this much of an anti-Irish sod.

edit: Also the irony of berating Irish people about alcohol. You know what they say. Look around you. Just... look around you
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 09:18:14 PM
Quote from: canadagoose on June 22, 2020, 09:15:47 PM
Fuck's sake. Imagine being Scottish and being this much of an anti-Irish sod.
but sure where do you think all them orange bastards in the North came from

they're all descended from Scottish Presbyterians who were given the land in the 1600s
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on June 22, 2020, 09:20:06 PM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 09:18:14 PM
but sure where do you think all them orange bastards in the North came from

they're all descended from Scottish Presbyterians who were given the land in the 1600s
This is the source of much shame. Don't worry, I don't like it either. I'm "of Protestant origin" and I cringe whenever some staunch 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 person waffles on on Twitter about some shit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:25:25 PM
Quote from: canadagoose on June 22, 2020, 09:15:47 PM
Fuck's sake. Imagine being Scottish and being this much of an anti-Irish sod.

edit: Also the irony of berating Irish people about alcohol. You know what they say. Look around you. Just... look around you
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on June 22, 2020, 09:28:12 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:25:25 PM
Pfft. I don't particularly have anything against the Irish, if I have to say so.

Well a little bit. Sometimes. A mild annoyance, not a passionate religious bigotry. Sometimes, they're always jigging around and shouting. It's too much. Calm down. Why not be quiet for a change.
You should probably tell your definitely-not-pals in the OO to stop doing their dogshit marches too. They like jigging around, shouting (about Catholics) and not being quiet (outside Catholic churches).
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 09:29:00 PM
Quote from: canadagoose on June 22, 2020, 09:20:06 PM
This is the source of much shame. Don't worry, I don't like it either. I'm "of Protestant origin" and I cringe whenever some staunch 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 person waffles on on Twitter about some shit.

I had a neighbour earlier on today going on at me again about the flags he's putting up for the 11th night/12th of July.  Just sort of nod and smile and ask what flags they are, while very carefully supressing the overwhelming urge to say "yeah, I'm not into all that shit. And I think the royal family are all lizard nonces."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on June 22, 2020, 09:30:38 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 09:29:00 PM
I had a neigbour earlier again today going on at me about the flags he's putting up for the 11th night/12th of July.  Just sort of nod and smile and ask what flags they are, while very carefully supressing the overwhelming urge to say "yeah, I'm not into all that shit. And I think the royal family are all lizard nonces."
Did you call the Queen the C.o.D.? I imagine that probably wouldn't have gone over well. I had friends whose parents were a bit into all that staunch SIMPLY EH BEST shit and it was always a bit awkward. I used to be temporarily pro-royal when I was 12-14 but when I was younger I wasn't arsed so thought it was a bit weird.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 09:31:56 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:25:25 PM
Why not be quiet for a change.

This is the most sensible thing I've ever heard you say.  Why not do it?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:33:31 PM
Quote from: canadagoose on June 22, 2020, 09:28:12 PM
You should probably tell your definitely-not-pals in the OO to stop doing their dogshit marches too. They like jigging around, shouting (about Catholics) and not being quiet (outside Catholic churches).
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2020, 09:36:04 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:33:31 PM

Is this casual stereotyping acceptable here?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 09:38:42 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 09:29:00 PM
I had a neighbour earlier on today going on at me again about the flags he's putting up for the 11th night/12th of July.  Just sort of nod and smile and ask what flags they are, while very carefully supressing the overwhelming urge to say "yeah, I'm not into all that shit. And I think the royal family are all lizard nonces."

This made me laugh.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 22, 2020, 09:40:07 PM
Quote from: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 09:33:31 PM

God this is an unpleasant read.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 09:41:14 PM
I'm just remembering how our last Taoiseach was gay and biracial and the son of an immigrant.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 09:42:27 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 22, 2020, 09:08:17 PM
Do you identify as British? I genuinely don't tbh. Never have done unless forced to on an equal opportunities form or what have you.

I guess I don't think too strongly about it. I'm British but I'm not proud of it, in fact I can't help but see massive flaws in my countrymen. I think I feel Northern first, and then British second, and then English third.

I hope my son feels at least a little of his Irish heritage, even though he'll be third-generation. I've got an Irish passport as a contingency plan, too.

I think that this Default to the negative fella is trying to be funny, but consistently missing? I think the joke is supposed to be 'imagine if this was what I actually believed?' but they've not quite got the punchline down.

Reminds me of this joke I told at my best man's speech at my brother's wedding, except for my joke is better obv:

"I know when my dad came over from Ireland he would have never expected to see his kids to be getting married, and he never did because he died in 2018. His absence is felt every day but I know he's especially missed today.  I can just imagine what he'd say today, something like 'ooh te too te too te too, where's mi pot o' gold.'
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on June 22, 2020, 10:01:17 PM
I'm imagining negs as Colin Robinson from what we do in the shadows now, gleefully lapping up this ambient fug mild annoyance that he has sown, in his bleak, prison like basement dungeon
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 10:03:12 PM
Shall I just bin him off now? 

Edit: Yeah let's go.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on June 22, 2020, 10:04:32 PM
What would the down sides be?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Default to the negative on June 22, 2020, 10:04:43 PM
Byyyeeee
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 10:06:26 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 10:03:12 PM
Shall I just bin him off now? 

Dunno, he's so half-arsed it hardly seems worth your time. 

Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on June 22, 2020, 10:01:17 PM
I'm imagining negs as Colin Robinson from what we do in the shadows now, gleefully lapping up this ambient fug mild annoyance that he has sown, in his bleak, prison like basement dungeon

... the kettle pings off and pours himself another steaming cup of piss.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Twit 2 on June 22, 2020, 10:14:59 PM
Quote from: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 10:38:10 AM
Virtue is its own reward.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VNGddLDG/C4-F904-F7-605-B-4258-B0-E5-28-DF2646-E293.jpg)

QuoteNos vertus ne sont, le plus souvent, que de vices déguisés.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 10:21:09 PM
No shit?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Twit 2 on June 22, 2020, 10:24:05 PM
That's what they probably replied to him with in the salons; they were known for their wit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on June 22, 2020, 10:30:20 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on June 22, 2020, 09:29:00 PM
I had a neighbour earlier on today going on at me again about the flags he's putting up for the 11th night/12th of July.  Just sort of nod and smile and ask what flags they are, while very carefully supressing the overwhelming urge to say "yeah, I'm not into all that shit. And I think the royal family are all lizard nonces."

I'm surprised the Orange Bastards, sorry, our Loyalist neighbours who's traditions we respect even though they largely involve singing songs about how great it is to murder Catholics, haven't tried to un-cancel Marching Season yet.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on June 22, 2020, 10:31:08 PM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 09:41:14 PM
I'm just remembering how our last Taoiseach was gay and biracial and the son of an immigrant.

He is still a Blueshirt though.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 22, 2020, 10:49:37 PM
Quote from: Twit 2 on June 22, 2020, 10:24:05 PM
That's what they probably replied to him with in the salons; they were known for their wit.

We'll never know, you can't hear anything with those dryers going.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Puce Moment on June 22, 2020, 11:57:08 PM
The Martyrdom of Saint Default 2020

(https://cdn.moldovacrestina.md/2017/12/mucenic.jpg)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Thursday on June 23, 2020, 01:24:59 AM
What an odd one. I feel like there was a sincere desire for discussion from him behind it all, but he seemed determined to push buttons even when people were trying to give him a chance. I'm pretty trigger happy with the ignore list these days, but I still hadn't put him on ignore, even though so much of what he would say would annoy me.

Ah well.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Flouncer on June 23, 2020, 02:03:14 AM
I have to say, over the years, I had come to regard him as some cunt who posted here. This is a black day for thecookdandbombdforums.co.uk.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: sambwel on June 23, 2020, 03:14:52 AM
I do so hate missing an implosion. Oh well!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Birdie on June 23, 2020, 08:55:48 AM
I never got to ask him if he was still scared of vaginas :(
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Danger Man on June 23, 2020, 11:50:45 AM
Quote from: Birdie on June 23, 2020, 08:55:48 AM
I never got to ask him if he was still scared of vaginas :(

It was him!  I'd forgotten who had the fannyphobia.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dex Sawash on June 23, 2020, 12:24:37 PM

Have only visited glinnerthreads to shitpost, may as well toss one in here too
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on June 23, 2020, 12:49:56 PM
Quote from: Danger Man on June 23, 2020, 11:50:45 AM
It was him!  I'd forgotten who had the fannyphobia.

I hope I don't shock any bourgeois sensibilities by admitting I'm not that bothered about other peoples' myself. 

Of course, we all love our own but that's an entirely different kettle of fish. 
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on June 23, 2020, 04:57:10 PM
Quote from: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 07:59:32 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

2016 data:

UK - 12l of pure alcohol per year per capita (6th in the OECD)
Ireland - 10.9l of pure alcohol per year per capita (12th in the OECD)

...although if you look at the WHO data that table is supposedly based on (via the wikipedia source link) it doesn't have those figures and in the actual figures Ireland beats the UK by a little. The WHO raw data is here:

https://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A1039?lang=en

and tells the same story: Ireland has slightly higher per capita drinking in every set, although there's not much in it and both the UK and Ireland are drinking too much.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on June 24, 2020, 01:45:49 AM
This thread is fucking weird.
Title: Re: Glinner V: The Dream(ed up) Child (molestors): A New Carbon-era
Post by: Twit 2 on June 25, 2020, 07:17:08 AM
Can we have a split thread for all the orangutan chat, please?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: dissolute ocelot on June 25, 2020, 10:26:03 AM
How long before this gets to 99 pages?

Maybe we can use it to workshop new titles for the main Glinner threads.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Gregory Torso on June 25, 2020, 11:06:53 AM
Last night I was very angry about the talk to transformer thread, can't remember why now though. I had been drinking.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Puce Moment on June 25, 2020, 12:43:03 PM
It would piss me off no end if a smart young comedy fan wanted to register for this forum and then saw those Irish posts and decided to just stay on twitter instead. Regardless of how much they are dripping in brilliant irony.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 25, 2020, 03:51:54 PM
Yeah I suppose I should just delete them.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Puce Moment on June 25, 2020, 04:14:56 PM
I dunno, maybe our reaction to it is a good sign that we/you don't tolerate people self-imploding or baiting for a kick.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 25, 2020, 04:38:13 PM
Right on.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on June 25, 2020, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: Dex Sawash on June 23, 2020, 12:24:37 PM
Have only visited glinnerthreads to shitpost, may as well toss one in here too
Nice.
Title: Re: Glinner V: The Dream(ed up) Child (molestors): A New Carbon-era
Post by: trabuch on July 01, 2020, 01:54:34 AM
There is a bit too much gloating here for my liking. It's not pretty. He's not a well man. He's gone - let him lie in his own shit for a while unmolested.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on July 01, 2020, 02:09:24 AM
We're up to our ears in gloaters here.
Title: Re: Glinner V: The Dream(ed up) Child (molestors): A New Carbon-era
Post by: tao of wub on July 01, 2020, 02:17:05 AM
Quote from: trabuch on July 01, 2020, 01:54:34 AM
He's gone.

More he has been ejected from the house but is desperately squeezing his face through the cat-flap and trying to shout inside.

Problem is he has been a hateful prick so it is cathartic to see him brought low.

I too think he is mentally ill, but in a very destructive way.  It is not like he is schizophrenic and unaware what he is up to.  He is a different type of ill altogether. 

I did briefly feel sorry for him a while ago, but seeing the sheer pleasure he was taking in bullying quickly put paid to that.

He is gleefully trying to damage vulnerable people and dressing it up as protecting the innocent.  Funny, I have had exactly the same abusive crap from the JWs that I have known.

Glinner and the nutjob crusaders can all get to fuck.  They need to address their problems before they deserve any compassion.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner V: The Dream(ed up) Child (molestors): A New Carbon-era
Post by: chveik on July 01, 2020, 02:18:47 AM
well I guess now that he's been deplatformed he can hardly harass anyone. love the trolling though
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Paul Calf on July 01, 2020, 05:52:44 AM
Quote from: bgmnts on July 01, 2020, 02:09:24 AM
We're up to our ears in gloaters here.

Can I come in for a gloat?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 01, 2020, 12:25:36 PM
Gloats are off.
Title: Re: Glinner V: The Dream(ed up) Child (molestors): A New Carbon-era
Post by: mr. logic on July 01, 2020, 07:17:36 PM
Bit disingenuous all this sudden concern for his mental health. He has been clearly unwell for ages now.
Title: Re: Glinner V: The Dream(ed up) Child (molestors): A New Carbon-era
Post by: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 07:27:06 PM
Quote from: trabuch on July 01, 2020, 01:54:34 AM
There is a bit too much gloating here for my liking. It's not pretty. He's not a well man. He's gone - let him lie in his own shit for a while unmolested.

Yeah. My thoughts exactly - seems like a lot of people are creaming themselves over this. Makes for ugly reading those Glinner threads and I'm glad I'm not part of the pile on.
Title: Re: Glinner V: The Dream(ed up) Child (molestors): A New Carbon-era
Post by: QDRPHNC on July 01, 2020, 08:05:53 PM
Quote from: mr. logic on July 01, 2020, 07:17:36 PM
Bit disingenuous all this sudden concern for his mental health. He has been clearly unwell for ages now.

Not really. The context has shifted dramatically. Two weeks ago Glinner was broadcasting vile, undiluted hate directly to vulnerable people on Twitter, and holding them up for ridicule in front of his "half a million" followers. Today he's on a web site he made talking to about two dozen people with mental health issues and a handful of trolls.

Given the duration of his anti-trans campaign and the staggering, mindless cruelty he showed himself capable of in the last few months, it's hard to blame some of us who have been waiting for this implosion for celebrating, even if it does put a toe over the line of cuntery - and I include myself in that, up to and including things I have posted today.

It'll pass, the novelty of his being kicked off Twitter is already wearing off over in Comedy Chat. I don't feel great about some of the things I have said about him, at the same time I'm aware that no one on CaB is guilty of even a sliver of a fraction of what Linehan has done.

Quote from: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 07:27:06 PM
Yeah. My thoughts exactly - seems like a lot of people are creaming themselves over this. Makes for ugly reading those Glinner threads and I'm glad I'm not part of the pile on.

Less than 10 people trolling Glindr (mostly pretty civil, all things considered) for a week and a thread on a forum he doesn't read. Hardly a pile-on.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: selectivememory on July 01, 2020, 08:23:21 PM
Yeah, I mean if he really is ill I hope he gets help, but I'm not going to fault anyone for dancing on his Twitter grave after the way he's behaved in the last couple of years. It's enjoyable to see a horrible person get their comeuppance.

But anyway, unless he gets another big platform to spew his shitty views and direct his minions to harass trans people and others who don't agree with him, I imagine the threads about him here are going to fizzle out quite soon.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 01, 2020, 08:32:05 PM
I mean, I hope he does get help, but he's been a horrible fucking cunt over the last 3 years and I don't feel particularly sorry for him.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 08:48:02 PM
Yeah he's been a prick no doubt - But isn't he just a guy with outdated views hammering shit out, messing his life up? I know it's previously been at other people's expense, but right now... I dunno? Mercy?

Or am I just being a soft touch?

I might be a slight hypocrite because I fucking LOL'd (genuinely) when Katie Hopkins got ejected from Twitter, but Hopkins seems to revel in it and make a career out of it and every living pore on her body seems to emit genuine evil, whereas Glinner just seems like some awkward Uncle making terrible social decisions which has resulted in him desperately fumbling about and falling from grace into a clammy self-fulfilled hole.

--

On another note - It reminds me of another 'internet famous person' called Christian Weston Chandler now Christine, who is the subject of .... a fucking rabbit hole of bizarre behaviour, now (or was) the target of trolls worldwide. CWC is actually probably one living example of how the internet has probably shaped one's character and destiny.

For those unaware CWC is... An odd American person with little or no self-awareness, autistic, probably low levels of social intelligence (but fairly bright in other aspects) and has been the subject of ridicule for over a decade. CWC did a LOT to bring it onto himself (back when she was a bloke) - by making hugely venomous remarks about women, gays, trans people and all sorts of other shit. Trying to run someone over with their car, accidentally burning his own house down, macing shop employees and being banned from various gaming stores, comic conventions and all sorts of stuff. Inserting a broken Sonichu medallion up his arsehole to the support of his 'fans'. Fucking a blow up dummy. A prostitute. Trying to trick women into sex, all from his seedy weird room filled with toys and comic book posters. I speak in the 'he' terms as this was all before he transitioned. And at one point CWC simply thought 'transitioning' was dragging a sharp knife across his.... bits. And so he did. On camera.

At one point it must have clicked that the trolls were in serious danger of being complicit in something terrible. As he started receiving monetary donations after begging online, many of the trolls telling him to 'go seek medical assistance for the knife wound between your balls and anus'. Some trolls defended him from other trolls, whilst simultaneously tricking him into other weird shit.

It's a fucking rollercoaster.

Also CWC tried to combine Sonic the Hedgehog and Pikachu together to form his own 'copyrighted' comic character called Sonichu, which was how CWC originally became infamous. Trolls have been at CWC for decades now, taunting her with false Nintendo interviews and making her drive several states over for no reason... it's ... just an odd read.

Seriously CWC's  journey is absolutely is harrowing. Probably one of the strangest things I've read online with morbid fascination.

--

Proper gone off track there. I was once going to make a post on here about CWC, but it's hard to have a discussion without it seeming you're mocking someone, even if parts of their tragic life are genuinely amusing. And vice versa, you can be the biggest cunt and wreck everything, but that's ultimately quite tragic isn't it?


--

EDIT: Of course I'm comparing apples and oranges there, I know Glinner and CWC aren't comparable, but it's more to do with observing all this in real time.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on July 01, 2020, 08:51:42 PM
No, I don't think you're being soft at all. I have sympathy for Glinner, I just find it hard to not be a bastard about him because his behaviour was so egregious. But now that his craziness has lost its reach, it does feel like punching down.

I remember reading the ChrisChan saga a number of years ago, and just finding it sad because he is clearly mentally impaired.

Glinner has mental health problems too, but not of the same sort. And part of me really does feel sorry for him, that his life has collapsed and he has achieved nothing to show for it. But it also feels a bit like those celebrities who say something racist then blame it on drugs and hide in rehab for a while. Is there a single person on CaB who doesn't have or has had some kind of mental health issue? But we don't act like him. He has his problems, but he's not irrational and I don't believe he was incapable of stopping his own downfall at any point he wanted to.

But anyway. Glinner on Twitter was a worthy target, now he's just sad.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 01, 2020, 08:55:16 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 08:48:02 PM
Yeah he's been a prick no doubt - But isn't he just a guy with outdated views hammering shit out, messing his life up? I know it's previously been at other people's expense, but right now... I dunno? Mercy?

Or am I just being a soft touch?

I might be a slight hypocrite because I fucking LOL'd (genuinely) when Katie Hopkins got ejected from Twitter, but Hopkins seems to revel in it and make a career out of it and every living pore on her body seems to emit genuine evil, whereas Glinner just seems like some awkward Uncle making terrible social decisions which has resulted in him desperately fumbling about and falling from grace into a clammy self-fulfilled hole.

I think you're giving Glinner a bit too much leeway there. He's much closer to Hopkins than, say, CWC, who is admittedly an odd type but ultimately mostly harmless. Glinner has been a hate-filled shitbag who has targeted many innocent trans people (usually women, but also non-binary people and a few trans men for good measure) for no reason other than them, well, existing online. And I don't just mean on Twitter; he's spread himself among a lot of media sources. I'd have given his Twitter account as proof of this, but we all know what happened to it. Maybe try one of the many Glinner threads - I know you hated them but maybe try one of the earlier ones, like #4 or #5. Ambient Sheep had a master-post about it recently, which might be worth referring to if you're looking for the threads.

Edit: I didn't even mention the spreading of "gender critical" ideology amongst his fairly significant fan base. I'm not even sure who to compare him to there.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Better Midlands on July 01, 2020, 08:57:07 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 08:48:02 PM
For those unaware CWC is...

Last three numbers on the back of your credit card innit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on July 01, 2020, 08:57:15 PM
Punching down feels like a less appropriate term when the object has been in an extremely lofty position very very recently, was punched to the down point against their will, and shall be spending every waking minute with many influential supporters and tools at their disposal trying to bounce back.

It feels more like the term that should be used when you pick on someone more helpless.

If he apologised, pledged to reform his behaviour and gained any sort of trustworthy track record - even a few months, then it would start to become punching down.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 01, 2020, 08:57:56 PM
For context, Kryton I note that CWC and alogging has been brought up several times in glinner threads, including this one (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,80965.msg4239463.html#msg4239463). (popcorn wasn't the first to bring this up either, even in the context of the Contrapoints Cringe video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRBsaJPkt2Q) that they've screenshotted.)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on July 01, 2020, 09:01:44 PM
Quote from: canadagoose on July 01, 2020, 08:55:16 PM
I think you're giving Glinner a bit too much leeway there. He's much closer to Hopkins than, say, CWC, who is admittedly an odd type but ultimately mostly harmless.

Yes, this is very true. Glinner isn't just a weird old uncle with outdated views. He's a toxic person, and he's not helping his cause. He would repost pictures of trans minors so his followers could laugh at them. He found a trans academic who he had nothing to do with, and called her a "groomer" - a public implication of child abuse, to a trans academic. He would comment on pictures of underage girls and tell them they'd been watching too much porn.

He's sad and pathetic and I don't want to be as sad and pathetic as him, but he's gotten off lightly.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on July 01, 2020, 09:02:46 PM
Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on July 01, 2020, 08:57:15 PM
Punching down feels like a less appropriate term when the object has been in an extremely lofty position very very recently...

I'm just saying how it feels to me. Especially after watching his most recent videos. He just looks "gone". I can't put it any better than that.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 09:02:56 PM
Quote from: canadagoose on July 01, 2020, 08:55:16 PM
I think you're giving Glinner a bit too much leeway there. He's much closer to Hopkins than, say, CWC, who is admittedly an odd type but ultimately mostly harmless. Glinner has been a hate-filled shitbag who has targeted many innocent trans people (usually women, but also non-binary people and a few trans men for good measure) for no reason other than them, well, existing online. And I don't just mean on Twitter; he's spread himself among a lot of media sources. I'd have given his Twitter account as proof of this, but we all know what happened to it. Maybe try one of the many Glinner threads - I know you hated them but maybe try one of the earlier ones, like #4 or #5. Ambient Sheep had a master-post about it recently, which might be worth referring to if you're looking for the threads.

Fair enough. I can't argue with that. There's no denying he's been toxic. If he's singling people out (and I've missed that?) then yeah he probably deserves the kickback.
If you can link Ambient Sheep's post, that'd be cool, ta.

I did say in an edit to my previous post, I was comparing apples and oranges to Glinner and CWC, but the situation/narrative here is not too dissimilar. Loud mouth, toxic personality destroys self with enough rope.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 09:03:36 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 01, 2020, 08:57:56 PM
For context, Kryton I note that CWC and alogging has been brought up several times in glinner threads, including this one (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,80965.msg4239463.html#msg4239463). (popcorn wasn't the first to bring this up either, even in the context of the Contrapoints Cringe video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRBsaJPkt2Q) that they've screenshotted.)

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cold Meat Platter on July 01, 2020, 09:08:09 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 09:03:36 PM
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.

You should have been.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 01, 2020, 09:09:36 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 09:02:56 PM
Fair enough. I can't argue with that. There's no denying he's been toxic. If he's singling people out (and I've missed that?) then yeah he probably deserves the kickback.
If you can link Ambient Sheep's post, that'd be cool, ta.

I did say in an edit to my previous post, I was comparing apples and oranges to Glinner and CWC, but the situation/narrative here is not too dissimilar. Loud mouth, toxic personality destroys self with enough rope.
Here you go (https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,80980.msg4240752.html#msg4240752) - there are a lot of posts and certainly a lot of frustration contained within, so beware!

Edit: Why on earth did I say #4 in that other post? I'm going senile, I thought there were 8 or 9 topics. Maybe #2 is a better shout.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 09:11:55 PM
I wasn't aware of a lot of this. I'm not being a cunt, I just didn't know the extent of it.
I just thought he'd been posting rambling old-fashioned Catholic nonsense and was offensively out of touch, I didn't know he was singling people out.

Quote from: Cold Meat Platter on July 01, 2020, 09:08:09 PM
You should have been.

I should be doing many things, but time is limited.

Nah, There's no should, just could. I could have spent more time finding this stuff out, this is me doing it now. But ta for the mild scolding.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 01, 2020, 09:11:59 PM
It's interesting that lockdown has possibly exacerbated both his behaviour and the extent to which it is maladaptive to his context.

Back in January, I was happy to argue that it was difficult to consider him mentally ill, without that boiling down to an external value judgement intended to dismiss him. He didn't seem to be doing himself any serious harm, and certainly his second order desires didn't seem to conflict with first order ones (he did not want to stop, fundamentally).

Now, he's undergoing personal losses (that I assume are significant to him) and I suspect his desires are beginning to conflict in various ways (not least regarding access to online social spaces).
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 01, 2020, 09:12:32 PM
Quote from: Cold Meat Platter on July 01, 2020, 09:08:09 PM
You should have been.
Nah - and I wasn't trying to be catty.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Captain Z on July 01, 2020, 09:14:34 PM
FWIW, CWC, TWAW.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ferris on July 01, 2020, 09:26:53 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 09:02:56 PM
Fair enough. I can't argue with that. There's no denying he's been toxic. If he's singling people out (and I've missed that?) then yeah he probably deserves the kickback.

He was mad for singling people out, some famous and some not. Even if you are famous, I imagine the constant pile ons (and he was saying some pretty despicable stuff to these people and encouraging his followers to go further) would be exhausting.

Online at least, he was a really nasty piece of work who spent 18+ hours a day, every day, gleefully bullying people using his status and power. Even if he was doing it to further a cause I passionately believed in (forcing everyone to watch baseball, say) I'd still think it was a reprehensible way to behave.

Not to have a pop at you or anything, just to explain why he has invited so much comment and why he is getting so little sympathy (though obviously he's a human being so empathize with his situation).
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 01, 2020, 09:34:00 PM
don't forget siccing his followers on various Blue Ticks who had blocked him
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on July 01, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
I'd say pissing about on here is still punching up, but the angle of the punches has lowered considerably since Glinner was booted off Twitter and his near-total lack of actual support became clear. He's still been enough of a hateful shit that the past week of gently trolling Glindr doesn't come close to payback, but I don't think it should go any further than that, and would be happier if people most stuck to spectating on his misery from here on out, rather than poking him with a digital stick.

If one of his other ventures bears fruit (it won't) and he somehow claws back some profile (he won't) then a resumption of prodding would be fair though.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 09:42:35 PM
Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on July 01, 2020, 09:26:53 PM

Not to have a pop at you or anything, just to explain why he has invited so much comment and why he is getting so little sympathy (though obviously he's a human being so empathize with his situation).

Nah I'm glad you are. I don't mind being wrong if I'm wrong, but when it's politely explained rather than someone immediately thinking I'm being deliberately obnoxious  - that's what makes the difference.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 01, 2020, 09:43:31 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 09:11:55 PMI just thought he'd been posting rambling old-fashioned Catholic nonsense and was offensively out of touch, I didn't know he was singling people out.

Oh you have NO IDEA...  literally hundreds of posts a day, up to 18 hours a day, seven days a week... sadly/happily most of the evidence has now gone.


While I'm here, I agree that the moment he got banned from Twitter it changed from punching-up to punching-down.

Although the Glindr trolling was amusing, I also found it a bit "off" that people were putting the boot in at such a bad moment for him, so I'm glad it's stopped, lest it looked like we were bullying the very same person that we'd earlier been calling out for bullying people.  (Also, big difference is that we don't have 600,000 alleged followers.)  Was still funny though.

I just hope he gets some help, but let's face it, given that both friends and family have apparently tried to push him in that direction before they gave up and walked away, and he's presumably refused, who knows where he goes from here?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on July 01, 2020, 10:00:06 PM
Quote from: Ambient Sheep on July 01, 2020, 09:43:31 PMwho knows where he goes from here?

* Unable to get writing work
* Can't keep down regular job
* Moves in with Sian
* Converts to Jehova's Witness and marries her
* Makes lots of posts about how happy he is on Telegraph
* Murder-suicide

(Too much?)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 01, 2020, 10:06:59 PM
Spot on, except that he'd have to marry her before moving in.  Although just being a lodger in the spare room might be acceptable, I suppose.

And no, not too much.
Title: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Mr_Simnock on July 22, 2020, 03:00:12 AM
What is another round of this drivel going to achieve that the last 500 pages (Jesus fucking wept) hasn't already covered to death. Absolute nadir of the forum. Glad I finally popped that out, almost cathartic.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: boki on July 22, 2020, 09:52:03 AM
Quote from: Ambient Sheep on July 01, 2020, 10:06:59 PM
Spot on, except that he'd have to marry her before moving in.  Although just being a lodger in the spare room might be acceptable, I suppose.

When that inevitably becomes a sitcom (hi, Glins!), make sure you get your money, Sheepy.
Title: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 24, 2020, 04:17:29 AM
I haven't used this forum proper in about seven years. It had turned into a pile of bollocks when I left but it's really gone full blown now... What are you up to now, with this thread? PART SIX of mass obsequious agreement and cravenly patting each other on the back? And giddily glorifying someone's demise who has a difference of opinion than you? I know there have been been some anomalies to the rule for about 600 pages now.. but fuck all.

This post has nothing to do with The Trans Issue (C) but, to reiterate, but what what a seething, boring, arse kissing mess of one-way conversation this place now is. Come on shake things up! I'll join you again in Part XI or however long this keeps crawling on for...
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Mister Six on July 24, 2020, 04:38:15 AM
Don't feel like you have to.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Jerzy Bondov on July 24, 2020, 07:39:09 AM
Nah. It's funny.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Alberon on July 24, 2020, 07:44:03 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 24, 2020, 04:17:29 AM
I haven't used this forum proper in about seven years. It had turned into a pile of bollocks when I left but it's really gone full blown now... What are you up to now, with this thread? PART SIX of mass obsequious agreement and cravenly patting each other on the back? And giddily glorifying someone's demise who has a difference of opinion than you? I know there have been been some anomalies to the rule for about 600 pages now.. but fuck all.

This post has nothing to do with The Trans Issue (C) but, to reiterate, but what what a seething, boring, arse kissing mess of one-way conversation this place now is. Come on shake things up! I'll join you again in Part XI or however long this keeps crawling on for...

Of course the  thread is absurd. We've pointed it out often enough. Watching a well-respected comedy writer commit career suicide and slowly disappear into a well of hate is fascinating though.

I can't offer a contrary position though as I don't believe in one.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Alberon on July 24, 2020, 07:54:02 AM
I"ve not been on this sub-thread of the great Glinner debate before.

I do agree we shouldn't troll him. His legacy-follower numbers are gone and he's slowly sliding away from the bright lights to the weird hinterland of the internet almost as far out as we are.

I think the thread will slowly start to die now. We've had the whole twitter ban thing and the scrabbling around the lesser known social medias in search of the same hit, but I can't see much changing now.

This is his life from now on.
Title: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: imitationleather on July 24, 2020, 08:02:56 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 24, 2020, 04:17:29 AM
I haven't used this forum proper in about seven years. It had turned into a pile of bollocks when I left but it's really gone full blown now... What are you up to now, with this thread? PART SIX of mass obsequious agreement and cravenly patting each other on the back? And giddily glorifying someone's demise who has a difference of opinion than you? I know there have been been some anomalies to the rule for about 600 pages now.. but fuck all.

This post has nothing to do with The Trans Issue (C) but, to reiterate, but what what a seething, boring, arse kissing mess of one-way conversation this place now is. Come on shake things up! I'll join you again in Part XI or however long this keeps crawling on for...

lol
Title: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: DrGreggles on July 24, 2020, 08:19:38 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 24, 2020, 04:17:29 AM
I haven't used this forum proper in about seven years. It had turned into a pile of bollocks when I left but it's really gone full blown now... What are you up to now, with this thread? PART SIX of mass obsequious agreement and cravenly patting each other on the back? And giddily glorifying someone's demise who has a difference of opinion than you? I know there have been been some anomalies to the rule for about 600 pages now.. but fuck all.

This post has nothing to do with The Trans Issue (C) but, to reiterate, but what what a seething, boring, arse kissing mess of one-way conversation this place now is. Come on shake things up! I'll join you again in Part XI or however long this keeps crawling on for...

You're not even my real Dad!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on July 24, 2020, 08:38:26 AM
QuoteAnd giddily glorifying someone's demise who has a difference of opinion than you?

The 'demise' (unspecified ban from Twitter) of a man who has used their status to repeatedly single out and bully vulnerable people he doesn't know and has never met while encouraging others to do the same.

Mm, that context sure makes these porridge oats go down smooth.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on July 24, 2020, 08:50:10 AM
Quote from: here4glinner on June 22, 2020, 07:59:32 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

2016 data:

UK - 12l of pure alcohol per year per capita (6th in the OECD)
Ireland - 10.9l of pure alcohol per year per capita (12th in the OECD)

I'm not denying that we all like a bit of booze but Brits sneering at the Irish for drinking too much is just hypocritical.

My late Irish dad wouldn't have had much tolerance for a Brit making lazy stereotypes about the Irish and I am inclined to agree with him. By rights, the Irish should be just as pissed off at the Brits as the Iranians, if not moreso. It's frankly amazing that they don't despise us. Like 800 years of systematic oppression, exploitation and even genocide, ending within living memory? It's probably for the best if we are very nice about Irish people from now on.

I criticised my gf / baby momma for using the phrase 'throwing a paddy' the other day. We are so mean about the Irish - who we have been heartlessly cruel towards for centuries - that anti-Irish slurs have embedded themselves into our language without us even recognising them as being anti-Irish.

Complete tangent but I looked into this in surprise after reading your post and couldn't find any real evidence 'throwing a paddy' has any connection to slagging off the Irish at all...
Title: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Twit 2 on July 24, 2020, 09:04:43 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 24, 2020, 04:17:29 AM
I haven't used this forum proper in about seven years. It had turned into a pile of bollocks when I left but it's really gone full blown now... What are you up to now, with this thread? PART SIX of mass obsequious agreement and cravenly patting each other on the back? And giddily glorifying someone's demise who has a difference of opinion than you? I know there have been been some anomalies to the rule for about 600 pages now.. but fuck all.

This post has nothing to do with The Trans Issue (C) but, to reiterate, but what what a seething, boring, arse kissing mess of one-way conversation this place now is. Come on shake things up! I'll join you again in Part XI or however long this keeps crawling on for...

I absolutely love posts like this whenever they pop up. This is a particularly fine example though, well done.
Title: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Rizla on July 24, 2020, 09:07:59 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 24, 2020, 04:17:29 AM
I haven't used this forum proper in about seven years....

I've been watching this cunt set himself very publicly and loudly on fire in slow motion since, what, 2007? I've been there the whole time. Don't tell me I'm not allowed to poke the embers with my toe
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 09:10:04 AM
"If man say him a ting, then him a ting, you get me?"
2011 - funny joke on Phoneshop
2019 - proposed sole legal basis of UK rights, access, responsibilities.
And if you still think it's a joke then you're a NAZI.
Title: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: imitationleather on July 24, 2020, 09:27:32 AM
Quote from: Twit 2 on July 24, 2020, 09:04:43 AM
I absolutely love posts like this whenever they pop up. This is a particularly fine example though, well done.

HELLO, YOU DON'T KNOW ME. IF YOU ALL DO WHAT I WANT THEN I MIGHT SAY YOUR FORUM IS NOT SHIT.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 09:30:25 AM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 09:10:04 AM
"If man say him a ting, then him a ting, you get me?"
2011 - funny joke on Phoneshop
2019 - proposed sole legal basis of UK rights, access, responsibilities.
And if you still think it's a joke then you're a NAZI.

Ok terf.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phantom_power on July 24, 2020, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 09:10:04 AM
"If man say him a ting, then him a ting, you get me?"
2011 - funny joke on Phoneshop
2019 - proposed sole legal basis of UK rights, access, responsibilities.
And if you still think it's a joke then you're a NAZI.

Thanks for summing up the stupid and false position of Glinner and the TERFs so succinctly
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 09:42:48 AM
HE WAS CANCELLED JUST FOR HAVING AN OPINION
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 10:14:51 AM
Quote from: phantom_power on July 24, 2020, 09:36:01 AM
Thanks for summing up the stupid and false position of Glinner and the TERFs so succinctly

What's false about it?
"Self ID" is literally "if man say him a ting then for legal purposes him a ting"
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 24, 2020, 10:37:00 AM
Madhair's started yet another fucking thread. Fucking hell, you're all obsessed.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chollis on July 24, 2020, 10:45:14 AM
listen, we all want to let those threads die but madhair keeps coming up with funny new titles for the next one so we feel like we have to humour him and reach 100 pages with every one. and the cycle continues
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on July 24, 2020, 10:49:06 AM
I've said before, don't read the threads, no time, but the titles are a source of great joy.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on July 24, 2020, 10:57:18 AM
Don't really rate the new Glinner thread title, sorry. This, along with his underwhelming new comic strip ( is it influenced by glib American comic strips, or satirically deploying the tropes of aforemensched sassy strips?) has me worrying if madders is losing his touch.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on July 24, 2020, 11:02:18 AM
Do you know what threads I really don't like?

No, because I keep that shit to myself

I'm like jesus in many ways
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bernice on July 24, 2020, 11:23:13 AM
This thread is the best episode of Points of View
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 11:31:52 AM
Blah blah boobity blah
Title: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 24, 2020, 11:38:59 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 24, 2020, 04:17:29 AM
I haven't used this forum proper in about seven years. It had turned into a pile of bollocks when I left but it's really gone full blown now...

i am leibing dis group
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 24, 2020, 11:42:11 AM
AND CLEARLY THE EARTH IS FLAT CAN YOU SEE A CURVE???? FUCK SCIENCE, MY EYES TELL ME EVERYTHING FOR THEY ARE A GENIUS
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 11:43:16 AM
Quote from: ZoyzaSorris on July 24, 2020, 08:50:10 AM
Complete tangent but I looked into this in surprise after reading your post and couldn't find any real evidence 'throwing a paddy' has any connection to slagging off the Irish at all...

First Google result for 'throwing a paddy etymology'  (https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special-shows/the-mystery-hour/words/why-do-we-throw-a-paddy/) - from LBC

"It comes from the slightly rude reference to Irish-ness, a historical reference to the Irish complaints about English oppression – so throwing a paddy is a complaint about William of Orange's troops killing Catholics."

Here's a bunch of Irish people complaining about it and calling it racist on Reddit. (https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/2bghdd/dont_throw_a_paddy_racist/)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on July 24, 2020, 11:44:29 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 24, 2020, 10:37:00 AM
Madhair's started yet another fucking thread. Fucking hell, you're all obsessed.

then don't look at it professor genius einstein

Quote from: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on July 24, 2020, 10:57:18 AM
Don't really rate the new Glinner thread title, sorry. This, along with his underwhelming new comic strip ( is it influenced by glib American comic strips, or satirically deploying the tropes of aforemensched sassy strips?) has me worrying if madders is losing his touch.

i'm sorry you feel the madhair train is coming off the rails. i will do my best to make up for it with the best posts and comics ever!!!!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 24, 2020, 11:48:00 AM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 03, 2020, 05:45:54 AM
Insta-dismissing anyone who talks about "sex-based rights" is a funny way to show that women shouldn't worry about losing the sex-based rights it took them hundreds of years to have recognised.

Hey you wrote this. Literally women never used the expression 'sex-based-rights' before its application as terfspeak, and what... our crowning achievement for women's rights (not 'sex-based-rights' you weirdo) is a separate bathroom without urinals and a triangle over a stick figure on the door?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cuellar on July 24, 2020, 11:54:28 AM
CANNOT believe a comedy forum has an ongoing interest in the ongoing self-immolation of a one-time comedy legend.

This is NOT what I signed up for. I am leaving.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: FredNurke on July 24, 2020, 11:58:35 AM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 11:43:16 AM
First Google result for 'throwing a paddy etymology'  (https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special-shows/the-mystery-hour/words/why-do-we-throw-a-paddy/) - from LBC

"It comes from the slightly rude reference to Irish-ness, a historical reference to the Irish complaints about English oppression – so throwing a paddy is a complaint about William of Orange's troops killing Catholics."

Here's a bunch of Irish people complaining about it and calling it racist on Reddit. (https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/2bghdd/dont_throw_a_paddy_racist/)

OED assigns the 'temper tantrum' sense to its PADDY n./2 (the 'Irishman' word, as distinct from the 'rice paddy' PADDY n./1). The first quotation (from 1894) reads "They goes out looking red in the face, and in a regular paddy"; the red face also suggests stereotypical Irishness.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: earl_sleek on July 24, 2020, 12:32:38 PM
Funny how terfs claim to be fighting for women's rights but they're always banging on about toilets and never mention pay inequality, access to abortion, tampon tax, low rate of rape convictions...
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on July 24, 2020, 12:45:02 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 11:43:16 AM
First Google result for 'throwing a paddy etymology'  (https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special-shows/the-mystery-hour/words/why-do-we-throw-a-paddy/) - from LBC

"It comes from the slightly rude reference to Irish-ness, a historical reference to the Irish complaints about English oppression – so throwing a paddy is a complaint about William of Orange's troops killing Catholics."

Here's a bunch of Irish people complaining about it and calling it racist on Reddit. (https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/2bghdd/dont_throw_a_paddy_racist/)

Yes I saw that. I don't consider an unreferenced blog on LBC of all things a primary source, sorry. Or a bunch of people on Reddit. I searched somewhat beyond that and found no convincing historical evidence for origins of the phrase that had anything to do with Irish people. I'm not going to die in a ditch over this, I'm just curious and couldn't care less either way, I just thought it seemed like one of those things were a false etymology becomes urban legend and then a new received wisdom.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on July 24, 2020, 12:46:26 PM
Quote from: FredNurke on July 24, 2020, 11:58:35 AM
OED assigns the 'temper tantrum' sense to its PADDY n./2 (the 'Irishman' word, as distinct from the 'rice paddy' PADDY n./1). The first quotation (from 1894) reads "They goes out looking red in the face, and in a regular paddy"; the red face also suggests stereotypical Irishness.

I haven't seen the OED reference as I don't own it or have access to it but the Cambridge online dictionary doesn't link the two at all.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/paddy (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/paddy)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poobum on July 24, 2020, 12:49:39 PM
Quote from: earl_sleek on July 24, 2020, 12:32:38 PM
Funny how terfs claim to be fighting for women's rights but they're always banging on about toilets and never mention pay inequality, access to abortion, tampon tax, low rate of rape convictions...


...complete invisibility and zero value given to there labour in a capitalist regime, the decades of erosion of the welfare state that impacts women disproportionately hard. Just the little insignificant things. Suppose if they confronted them, then they might have to do some self reflection on their role in it all.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 01:02:00 PM
Quote from: ZoyzaSorris on July 24, 2020, 12:46:26 PM
I haven't seen the OED reference as I don't own it or have access to it but the Cambridge online dictionary doesn't link the two at all.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/paddy (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/paddy)

not a primary source but someone referencing a reliable source here:

I did find an entry in "British English: A to Zed" by Norman W. Schur (Harper Perennial, New York, 1987): "paddy, n., tantrum. Inf. 'Paddywhack' is a variant. Paddy is a nickname for Padraig, which is old Irish for Patrick, and there are so many Patricks in Ireland that Patrick or Pat is usually the protagonist in Irish jokes. Apparently, Irish tempers are shorter than British ones, so somehow 'paddy' came to mean 'tantrum."

https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/5/messages/1257.html

you could argue it makes no difference what the etymology is anyway. If Irish people think it's offensive and derogatory, then perhaps don't use it. For instance, the etymology of 'p*ki' is from the country Pakistan, which is "composed of letters taken from the names of our homelands: that is, Punjab, Afghania [North-West Frontier Province], Kashmir, Iran, Sindh, Tukharistan, Afghanistan, and Balochistan. It means the land of the Paks, the spiritually pure and clean."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 01:03:21 PM
Can I still say having a Benny
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 01:05:53 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 01:03:21 PM
Can I still say having a Benny

I wonder if that comes from the slang term for the once-popular amphetamine Benzedrine?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: jobotic on July 24, 2020, 01:08:56 PM
Can I still say Weedon? How about Weedon Abaht It!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 01:18:01 PM
here's another OED entry linking 'paddy' as a synonym for 'tantrum' to anti-Irish bigotry. (https://www.lexico.com/definition/paddy)

"Late 19th century from Paddy, associated with obsolete paddywhack 'Irishman (given to brawling')."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: beanheadmcginty on July 24, 2020, 01:32:23 PM
This is an even bigger tangent, but was anybody else baffled by the decision to name a character in GTA IV "Packie"? I know that is a legitimate nickname for Patrick in Ireland and America, but you'd think someone would point out that it doesn't sound great when all the other characters are saying it all the time.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 24, 2020, 01:40:09 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 01:02:00 PMFor instance, the etymology of 'p*ki' is from the country Pakistan, which is "composed of letters taken from the names of our homelands: that is, Punjab, Afghania [North-West Frontier Province], Kashmir, Iran, Sindh, Tukharistan, Afghanistan, and Balochistan.

Fuck me, is that really true?  I've learnt something if it is.

Yup, Wikipedia agrees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan#Etymology), near enough:

QuoteThe name Pakistan literally means "land of the pure" in Urdu and Persian. It alludes to the word پاک (pāk), meaning "pure" in Persian and Pashto. The suffix ـستان (-stān) is a Persian suffix meaning the place of, and also recalls the synonymous (and cognate) Sanskrit word स्थान (sthāna).

The name of the country was coined in 1933 as Pakstan by Choudhry Rahmat Ali, a Pakistan Movement activist, who published it in his pamphlet Now or Never, using it as an acronym ("thirty million Muslim brethren who live in PAKSTAN") referring to the names of the five northern regions of British India: Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh, and Baluchistan. The letter i was incorporated to ease pronunciation

That's brilliant!  Putting that in the Fuck My Hat thread.  I knew about the "land of the pure" thing, but not the acronym bit.


Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 01:02:00 PMIt means the land of the Paks

<Insert Larry Niven joke here>
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Rizla on July 24, 2020, 02:01:35 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 01:03:21 PM
Can I still say having a Benny

(https://a3-images.myspacecdn.com/images03/27/36e9c594eedd4865986d2a5e0a51f030/600x600.jpg)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Flouncer on July 24, 2020, 02:06:44 PM
Quote from: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on July 24, 2020, 10:57:18 AM
Don't really rate the new Glinner thread title, sorry. This, along with his underwhelming new comic strip ( is it influenced by glib American comic strips, or satirically deploying the tropes of aforemensched sassy strips?) has me worrying if madders is losing his touch.

I'd like to know whether or not he feels that title is representative of his best work.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:10:49 PM
No point carrying on with the Gish Gallop of bollocks thrown out in this thread (standard internet practice). But look...
Here are the nonsense claims thrown out in response to two very basic points I made (1, Phoneshop; 2, it's silly to say "anyone who says phrase X is in a cult" when phrase X names the topic that people are arguing about):

1) that it's Wrong to say that "Self ID" is the same as "if man say him a ting then him a ting.
2) that the idea that women's rights are sex-based didn't exist until anti-trans 'terfs' in the 2000s
3+4) that 'terfs' never pay attention to women's rights outside the context of the War On Trans.

These are all either dunning-kruger or bad-faith distractions from the basic underlying issue: there are necessary conflicts between the rights claimed by cis women and the rights claimed by trans women, and it's important to work out the least harmful way to compromise on them.

1) Self ID is literally and exactly "if man say him a ting then for all legal purposes him a ting." This is its literal definition. To say that's "wrong" is just... wrong.

2) This is the most complex one. Any pre-Judith-Butler version of feminism argues that, in the situations in which women have been given fewer rights than men, the discrepancy comes back to biological differences - the fact that only female humans can bear children, their lesser physical strength on average, etc. The child-bearing requires them to be controlled for patriarchal ideas about family as property to make sense, blah, blah, blah. In current-world places where women are given lesser rights (Saudi Arabia, say) the dynamics are pretty clearly rooted in this - the rights that women are denied (freedom of movement without family male approval, financial independence unsupervised by family male, etc) all correspond to male control of female biological capabilities. Hypothesize - some Saudi son begins to identify as a woman. His parents buy it. Do they then restrict his freedoms in the way that they do his sister's? Of course not - he's barren and seeing him walk around freely won't give cis women any ideas, so he has no capacities that make his freedoms need constraining. Thus the rights that western women have gained may not be distinct from the rights western men already have, but at least insofar as they had to be Separately earned, it was on the basis of a material sex difference. So laws that don't just say "all people" but have to actively and explicitly state that women have the same rights as men... are sex based laws.
There's then a further complication - what when there are laws that reserve particular rights Only for women, that are not just the same rights as are reserved for men? These can be both "positive" (ie, women have the right to exclude non-women from groups set up for women; parties can run exclusive all-female candidate lists in order to advance the interests of women, etc) and "negative" (men shouldn't be put into restricted settings reserved for women without the express permission of the specific women they'd be in contact with - prisons, rape shelters, etc). These vary in whether they were initially established with the same sex-derived stakes as the general rights discussed above, but generally the legal consensus seems to be that "positive" rights above are not sex-centric but that "negative" rights of this kind are. See Yaniv etc for why.
For "sex based rights" to be only an evil terf-tool of oppressive vocabulary, and not to describe ANYTHING worth discussing or defending, you would have to show that there are NO legal rights attached to the term "woman" that have a better warrant from biological sex than from subjective gender identity.
As they say here - https://www.modernlawreview.co.uk/asteriti-bull-sharpe/ - the "point of absolute disagreement" comes "where, we argue, biological sex is still a legally significant category under the ERA, while Professor Sharpe's position appears to be that it is not." You can't get rid of the idea that at least some of women's rights are "sex based rights" unless you think that all rights women stand to lose or gain are lost or gained on the basis of how they think about themselves rather than of their material association with a biological class.
Otherwise there are sex-based rights that are undermined when granted to people of a different sex.

3+4) this is just a fantasy - in Britain "terfism" is mainly associated with the generation who actually did the work of fighting for women's right to, for example, own a credit card without male family member approval, statutory maternity pay, etc.  ie, women who fought for sex-based rights, and the removal of sex-based rights-restrictions, which only actually happened in the early 80s. Meanwhile for today, you can look at who runs, for example, the Centre for Women's Justice (who have achieved legislative change on domestic violence, self-defence laws, 'rough sex defence' for murder, etc) or Women's Place's work on employment discrimination law, work with unions, etc. Generally, women working on maintaining sex-not-gender grounds for women's rights in UK law have a pretty good track record of being directly involved in legislative changes that expand the rights of women (often including trans women, cf employment protections, etc). This is ongoing. You can get involved and help.

Anyhow, won't waste more time on this, but cookdandbombd used to be less stupid than the general internet. Just spitting out piles of obvious bullshit that take too long to refute for people to bother, so that you can feel like you "won" because everyone outside your posse stopped talking to you, is a foolish way to go through life.
Graham Linehan is extremely mentally ill. The Linehan threads are less epistemically competent than even the peak wackaloon they're about.
Spend less time on the internet - it makes everyone stupider.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 02:11:34 PM
what
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 02:14:33 PM
Lmao we finally found the one guy who views social issues through the prism of Phone Shop.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on July 24, 2020, 02:18:56 PM
Quotepiles of obvious bullshit that take too long to refute for people to bother
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cuellar on July 24, 2020, 02:19:23 PM
cool story bro
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 02:20:06 PM
Is that true that women couldn't get a credit card without male family members' approval when Thatcher was Prime Minister?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 24, 2020, 02:25:40 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 02:20:06 PM
Is that true that women couldn't get a credit card without male family members' approval when Thatcher was Prime Minister?

Dunno, could be.  Was true in the 60s and early 70s I believe, but not sure how late it went on for.  Maybe depended on bank.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 02:31:35 PM
Barclays was marketing credit cards to women in 1973, and...

"The Sex Discrimination Act of 1975 finally outlawed discrimination against women seeking to obtain goods, facilities or services, including loans or credit."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36662872

Surprising stuff! A woman who was 20 in 1975 would be 65 today, so I don't think you can really say that terfs are 'the same people' who were fighting for this right. And it is true that people only ever talked about 'hard-fought sex based rights' recently and in the specific context of banning trans women from the ladies' toilets.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:34:36 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 02:14:33 PM
Lmao we finally found the one guy who views social issues through the prism of Phone Shop.

My point was that Glinner thread posters take a line from Phoneshop as the infallible legal logic of identity-based rights and that this is not a good thing. Feel free to cancel Phil Bowker for laughing at you.

Anyhow, since people here really don't seem to have Any idea what the basic ideas of gender critical feminism are, here's a pretty good summary of principles from famous evil Nazis the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party
https://womansplaceuk.org/2020/07/16/statement-spanish-socialist-party-sex-based-rights/
Read it for yourself and see if it seems like HARMFUL HATE.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 02:35:09 PM
The first credit cards in the mid 60s were available to women, though obviously not many had them as they weren't marketed to them. Some banks saw women as a higher liability so required a male guarantor. Such practices were outlawed by the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975.

Now everyone is free to run up credit card debt! for the economy! hooray!#

edit fuck
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 02:36:10 PM
I'm pretty sure people here have a good handle on what 'gender critical feminists' believe tbh. Just because we don't agree with it doesn't mean we don't understand it. Your nice-sounding link doesn't even mention the actual divisive issues with real-world implications like bathroom usage and healthcare options.

I notice this often when people try to sound reasonable. They totally omit the fact that they want trans women to use the gents' toilets or some non-existent third toilet, and that they want kids (and adults) with gender dysphoria to have their healthcare options restricted, against what actual healthcare professionals think is best for the sufferer. If it wasn't for these real-world issues, which I think would cause immeasurable harm, I wouldn't give a fuck about GC feminism, just like I don't really care if you are an existentialist or not.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 02:38:51 PM
While I'm not sure I am as certain as undeliberated about everything they say, I do think (and have said here before to general raspberries and fuck-yous) that pretending there are no rights contention issues around self-id is incorrect and doesn't really help the trans-rights cause. Just pretending a problem doesn't exist doesn't solve it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 02:39:25 PM
why can't have progressive rights campaigning have stopped in 1975 when it had all been sorted out and everything was fine! WHY DO THEY HAVE TO

KEEP

MESSING

ABOUT

WITH

THINGS
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 02:40:42 PM
Woman's Place UK now, oh dear.

Do you want to perhaps have a little think about where any Nazi comparisons may actually be coming from?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bernice on July 24, 2020, 02:41:34 PM
Quote1) that it's Wrong to say that "Self ID" is the same as "if man say him a ting then him a ting

"Self id", a clumsy phrase which seems generally disliked among trans people but beloved of terf handwringers, refers to a proposed change to the rules which would make it easier, cheaper, and less medicalised to legally transition. It would still require a person to register and participate in a legal process. More a case of "if a man want to be a ting, he has to fill out paperwork and legally register as that ting". You'll note this is true of many things one can seek to be legally recognised as.


Quote2) that the idea that women's rights are sex-based didn't exist until anti-trans 'terfs' in the 2000s

The phrase "sex-based rights" was basically unheard of before the anti-trans campaign. Of course feminism has a long history of engaging with questions of sex and biology, of essentialism vs constructionism, of the social and the embodied etc. This tends to be tangential to the practical point of issue - Generally, the "sex based rights" under attack are access to female spaces which have been used by trans women for decades, largely without antipathy or abuse, primarily because the justification for their existence lies in the societal threats to/dangers for/status of women, which factors are broadly common between cis and trans.



Quote3+4) that 'terfs' never pay attention to women's rights outside the context of the War On Trans.

A generalised statement that, though inaccurate, certainly seems to point towards a truth - at least in my experience of terf twitter.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 02:42:08 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 02:39:25 PM
why can't have progressive rights campaigning have stopped in 1975 when it had all been sorted out and everything was fine! WHY DO THEY HAVE TO

KEEP

MESSING

ABOUT

WITH

THINGS

As any software developer will tell you, progression in one area often unintentionally creates regression in another. The trick is to clock this then work to make sure both sets of progression can co-exist.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 02:44:42 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 02:42:08 PM
As any software developer will tell you, progression in one area often unintentionally creates regression in another. The trick is to clock this then work to make sure both sets of progression can co-exist.

Trans people have been using the bathrooms that align with their gender identity for years now.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bernice on July 24, 2020, 02:45:40 PM
Pdine - what are the new issues that "self-id" would bring about?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:45:58 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 02:31:35 PM
And it is true that people only ever talked about 'hard-fought sex based rights' recently and in the specific context of banning trans women from the ladies' toilets.

- see earlier post: the point is that most of what can now be described as "sex based rights" weren't referred to that before very recently because it was assumed that was what "women's rights" referred to. The competing idea that the rights could be granted on the basis of "gender identity" not "sex" wasn't a live issue until the concept of "gender identity" became mainstream, which would be the 90s at earliest. It's absurd to say "ah, this concept only exists because of hatred of trans people because before trans people proposed changing this conception of women's rights there was no discussion of the different potential grounds on which women could have distinctive rights." That's like saying "Nobody ever mentioned light blue before we tried to say that blue only referred to dark blue."

Of course women discussed the hard-won-ness of women's rights before 2000, and the importance of defending them against legislative dilution, and when they did so, they conceived of them as sex-based rights since the grounds on which they'd been pursued were explicitly tied to woman as a biological sex-class. Read any feminist legal text published before 1990. The naming is less important than the basis on which the rights are granted, guaranteed, etc, which is explicitly to do with sex. That's exactly what things like the Gender Recognition Act are trying to change. The question is whether anything is LOST by that change.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 02:48:01 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 02:44:42 PM
Trans people have been using the bathrooms that align with their gender identity for years now.

And the feminists I know irl, who are focused on increasing female representation in high-paid industries, reducing social gender roles that prevent women from achieving the same as men, etc.... and actually get off their arses and do things about these issues -  they are repulsed by terfs (and swerfs).

Undeliberated - why do you keep spouting theory and ideology? Do you think that trans women should use the gents, or not? Do you think that kids with gender dysphoria should have their healthcare options restricted beyond what medical science suggests is helpful?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 02:40:42 PM
Woman's Place UK now, oh dear.

Do you want to perhaps have a little think about where any Nazi comparisons may actually be coming from?

If you think Women's Place are Nazis then you've lost contact with the earth and I might as well try and have a sane conversation with Glinner.
And the link was to a document they hosted from the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party. Again, is the idea that the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party are Nazis? They defend the idea of "sex-based rights," which seems to be enough to get that label. But, as I have been trying to show, that is insane.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on July 24, 2020, 02:50:43 PM
Are people who are dead set against the idea of being able to choose your gender THAT insecure about their own identity and sexuality? It has to be a bit of that doesn't it?

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bernice on July 24, 2020, 02:50:59 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:45:58 PM
that's exactly what things like the Gender Recognition Act are trying to change. The question is whether anything is LOST by that change.

The Gender Recognition Act (2004) already exists, and already enshrines the right of people to legally change their gender. How do you think the proposed change to that process, which you seem to have misunderstood as being someone shouting "NOW I AM A WOMAN" and nipping into the ladies bog, would erode the rights of cis women? Or was the 2004 act the original sin which must be gotten rid of?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 02:51:33 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
If you think Women's Place are Nazis then you've lost contact with the earth and I might as well try and have a sane conversation with Glinner.
And the link was to a document they hosted from the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party. Again, is the idea that the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party are Nazis? They defend the idea of "sex-based rights," which seems to be enough to get that label. But, as I have been trying to show, that is insane.

Your comprehension skills am bad. Stick to Phone Shop ann ting.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 02:44:42 PM
Trans people have been using the bathrooms that align with their gender identity for years now.

Sure but

1) it has become more of an issue in terms of perception since trans people have (rightly) become less concerned about 'passing'
2) the fact that a contention of rights isn't a practical problem doesn't (I'd argue) excuse society from ruling on it
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on July 24, 2020, 02:56:08 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:34:36 PM
Spanish Socialist Worker's Party

A national "socialist worker's party" could never possibly say something bad.

Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:34:36 PM
Nazis
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: Bernice on July 24, 2020, 02:45:40 PM
Pdine - what are the new issues that "self-id" would bring about?

Sorry - I should have been clearer. These aren't 'new' issues in themselves; they relate to conceptual and semantic boundaries/conflicts and they have always existed. The thing is that as trans people continue to make progress against the assumption that they are disordered/sick, the conflicts become more obvious and more people feel threatened in the semantic space they occupy.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: thugler on July 24, 2020, 02:57:21 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:10:49 PM
Extremely long boring post

The key thing is, what do you actually suggest for solving the issue you are suggesting is currently a problem? How will you prevent 'non-women' in your eyes from accessing a women's bathroom? All that seems to have occurred from the recent scaremongering about trans people in women's bathrooms waiting to pounce on women has only resulted in trans people and women who are unusual looking getting attacked.

Secondly, trans women have been accessing some women's shelters and other female spaces etc for a long time without issue. Why is this suddenly a problem? A few cherry picked cases is not sufficient evidence.

It's easy to produce a long post of drivel, but you have to explain what changes you actually propose, as well as why extending what has already been happening in a lot of areas is a problem.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ferris on July 24, 2020, 03:03:42 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:10:49 PM
No point carrying on with the Gish Gallop of bollocks thrown out in this thread (standard internet practice). But look...
Here are the nonsense claims thrown out in response to two very basic points I made (1, Phoneshop; 2, it's silly to say "anyone who says phrase X is in a cult" when phrase X names the topic that people are arguing about):

1) that it's Wrong to say that "Self ID" is the same as "if man say him a ting then him a ting.
2) that the idea that women's rights are sex-based didn't exist until anti-trans 'terfs' in the 2000s
3+4) that 'terfs' never pay attention to women's rights outside the context of the War On Trans.

These are all either dunning-kruger or bad-faith distractions from the basic underlying issue: there are necessary conflicts between the rights claimed by cis women and the rights claimed by trans women, and it's important to work out the least harmful way to compromise on them.

1) Self ID is literally and exactly "if man say him a ting then for all legal purposes him a ting." This is its literal definition. To say that's "wrong" is just... wrong.

2) This is the most complex one. Any pre-Judith-Butler version of feminism argues that, in the situations in which women have been given fewer rights than men, the discrepancy comes back to biological differences - the fact that only female humans can bear children, their lesser physical strength on average, etc. The child-bearing requires them to be controlled for patriarchal ideas about family as property to make sense, blah, blah, blah. In current-world places where women are given lesser rights (Saudi Arabia, say) the dynamics are pretty clearly rooted in this - the rights that women are denied (freedom of movement without family male approval, financial independence unsupervised by family male, etc) all correspond to male control of female biological capabilities. Hypothesize - some Saudi son begins to identify as a woman. His parents buy it. Do they then restrict his freedoms in the way that they do his sister's? Of course not - he's barren and seeing him walk around freely won't give cis women any ideas, so he has no capacities that make his freedoms need constraining. Thus the rights that western women have gained may not be distinct from the rights western men already have, but at least insofar as they had to be Separately earned, it was on the basis of a material sex difference. So laws that don't just say "all people" but have to actively and explicitly state that women have the same rights as men... are sex based laws.
There's then a further complication - what when there are laws that reserve particular rights Only for women, that are not just the same rights as are reserved for men? These can be both "positive" (ie, women have the right to exclude non-women from groups set up for women; parties can run exclusive all-female candidate lists in order to advance the interests of women, etc) and "negative" (men shouldn't be put into restricted settings reserved for women without the express permission of the specific women they'd be in contact with - prisons, rape shelters, etc). These vary in whether they were initially established with the same sex-derived stakes as the general rights discussed above, but generally the legal consensus seems to be that "positive" rights above are not sex-centric but that "negative" rights of this kind are. See Yaniv etc for why.
For "sex based rights" to be only an evil terf-tool of oppressive vocabulary, and not to describe ANYTHING worth discussing or defending, you would have to show that there are NO legal rights attached to the term "woman" that have a better warrant from biological sex than from subjective gender identity.
As they say here - https://www.modernlawreview.co.uk/asteriti-bull-sharpe/ - the "point of absolute disagreement" comes "where, we argue, biological sex is still a legally significant category under the ERA, while Professor Sharpe's position appears to be that it is not." You can't get rid of the idea that at least some of women's rights are "sex based rights" unless you think that all rights women stand to lose or gain are lost or gained on the basis of how they think about themselves rather than of their material association with a biological class.
Otherwise there are sex-based rights that are undermined when granted to people of a different sex.

3+4) this is just a fantasy - in Britain "terfism" is mainly associated with the generation who actually did the work of fighting for women's right to, for example, own a credit card without male family member approval, statutory maternity pay, etc.  ie, women who fought for sex-based rights, and the removal of sex-based rights-restrictions, which only actually happened in the early 80s. Meanwhile for today, you can look at who runs, for example, the Centre for Women's Justice (who have achieved legislative change on domestic violence, self-defence laws, 'rough sex defence' for murder, etc) or Women's Place's work on employment discrimination law, work with unions, etc. Generally, women working on maintaining sex-not-gender grounds for women's rights in UK law have a pretty good track record of being directly involved in legislative changes that expand the rights of women (often including trans women, cf employment protections, etc). This is ongoing. You can get involved and help.

Anyhow, won't waste more time on this, but cookdandbombd used to be less stupid than the general internet. Just spitting out piles of obvious bullshit that take too long to refute for people to bother, so that you can feel like you "won" because everyone outside your posse stopped talking to you, is a foolish way to go through life.
Graham Linehan is extremely mentally ill. The Linehan threads are less epistemically competent than even the peak wackaloon they're about.
Spend less time on the internet - it makes everyone stupider.

didnt read lol
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 03:04:00 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 02:48:01 PM
Undeliberated - why do you keep spouting theory and ideology? Do you think that trans women should use the gents, or not? Do you think that kids with gender dysphoria should have their healthcare options restricted beyond what medical science suggests is helpful?

"theory and ideology" is a very dismissive term for basic argument about the distinction between gender and sex and why the latter can't be fully subsumed within the former. How are people supposed to discuss practical questions arising from that distinction without attempting to define terms and relationships? And surely the whole point of a basic materialist feminism is that sex has a pre-theoretical identifiable and tangible basis whereas "gender" or "identity" don't. You can't propose to replace a material category with a theoretical one and then attack people who question the grounds of the theory in theoretical terms.  There are huge parts of the basic concept of gender identity that have NO grounding beyond the theoretical (eg, why should subjective gender-identity be treated as infallibly accurate and part of a person's essence when things like phantom limbs show how consistently mistaken we can be in our first-person experience of the world). There's no position on these practical questions that can evade the need for a coherent theoretical grounding.

Don't care about bathrooms at all - I think it's a very minor issue that gender critical people make way too much of.

I don't think children should be having irreversible life-altering medical intervention on the basis of how they Feel - less so the younger they are. First-person experience is extremely fallible, and people's identity-conceptions change a lot over their early years. Detransitioning is a thing, mental health increase is very sporadic and unpredictable after transition. So I don't think anyone under 18 should be having unreliable permanent medical interventions on the basis of a subjective identification, especially not when the decision is often taken in consultation with lobby groups and private medical practitioners who stand to make money out of the operation with no liability for whatever happens afterwards.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Captain Z on July 24, 2020, 03:05:10 PM
Edit: Never mind, I was getting the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party confused with the Socialist Worker's Party of Spain.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on July 24, 2020, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: Captain Z on July 24, 2020, 03:05:10 PM
Edit: Never mind, I was getting the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party confused with the Socialist Worker's Party of Spain.

What a mistake a ta make
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on July 24, 2020, 03:09:56 PM
Quote from: Captain Z on July 24, 2020, 03:05:10 PM
Edit: Never mind, I was getting the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party confused with the Socialist Worker's Party of Spain.

(https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/2015montypython_thelifeofbrian_press_280915.jpg)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Captain Z on July 24, 2020, 03:11:26 PM
Nobody expects the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 03:20:28 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 03:04:00 PM
So I don't think anyone under 18 should be having unreliable permanent medical interventions on the basis of a subjective identification, especially not when the decision is often taken in consultation with lobby groups and private medical practitioners who stand to make money out of the operation with no liability for whatever happens afterwards.

Do you accept that this is the Big Pharma Conspiracy Theory, and is equivalently unprovable and unscientific to claims that weed cures cancer but the Big Pharma doesn't want the public to know because it would reduce their profit margins? Terf criticism of healthcare is exactly as convincing as anti-vaxxers.

Also 'detransitioning is a thing' - it's like 1% of trans people, and most of those 1% didn't detransition because they were actually cis, it was because transphobia forced them back into the closet. Prevent people accessing healthcare that prevents suicide because a fraction of a percent might be getting the wrong healthcare?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 03:23:25 PM
spanish socialist workers party

Spanish Socialist Workers Party

SPANISH SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY

SPANISH SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTYYYYYYYYYY
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 03:24:29 PM
Quote from: thugler on July 24, 2020, 02:57:21 PM
The key thing is, what do you actually suggest for solving the issue you are suggesting is currently a problem?

Secondly, trans women have been accessing some women's shelters and other female spaces etc for a long time without issue. Why is this suddenly a problem? A few cherry picked cases is not sufficient evidence.

It's easy to produce a long post of drivel, but you have to explain what changes you actually propose, as well as why extending what has already been happening in a lot of areas is a problem.

You're not asking any questions about anything I actually wrote. Again, there's a name for asking off-topic 1-line questions about complex topics and then responding to actual explanations of the issues by saying "boring" or "too long" without a actually going on to deal with the details that come up - a Gish Gallop. Fine, do it, but don't then act like it's someone else's fault that you aren't having a useful conversation where you can engage with the important specifics of the topic.

You also can't say "this has happened without issue. Well, there have been some issues but you're not allowed to mention them." That's stupid. It's not "cherry-picking" to point to specific incidents that have been made possible by a law and to say that this indicates the consequences of the law. The question is whether these extra harms caused by the law are outweighed by the benefits the law has brought. But this being a topic that brings out the cultists on either side, no one ever seems to discuss things in those weighing-terms, only of saying you're evil if you allow one or the other kind of harm at all.

In practical terms, I think the proposed self-ID version of gender identity is bad because it opens things up to cynics. It's not that "trans women" should be banned from women's bathrooms, it's that the proposed laws allow any cynical man to have access to women's spaces under the cover of "transneess" without having to commit to verifiable grounds to show that they ARE a trans woman. The upshot of this is that trans women have to go through more paperwork rigmarole (the most difficult of which is currently a time delay after initial request) to get access to their spaces. But I think that's a compromise worth taking for the ability to not give cynical men free access to any women's areas.
As I said above I have no idea why bathrooms are the crux issue.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: thugler on July 24, 2020, 03:26:55 PM
Quote from: undeliberated link=topic=80965.msg4272877#msg4272877 date=

Detransitioning is a thing

/quote]

While it is a thing, it's extremely rare, and generally those who do it don't cite 'i wasn't trans after all' as the reason for doing so. Most often the reason is the lack of acceptance in society. Which is something directly not helped by organisations like women's place and other scare mongering groups.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: daf on July 24, 2020, 03:28:37 PM
Quote from: Captain Z on July 24, 2020, 03:05:10 PM
I was getting the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party confused with the Socialist Worker's Party of Spain.

Splitters!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: daf on July 24, 2020, 03:33:26 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 03:24:29 PM
I have no idea why bathrooms are the crux issue.

Cocks, innit!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 03:33:38 PM
I don't think that anyone is advocating for cynical men to have unfettered access to women's bathrooms. This is a GC strawman. Brian Blessed saying he's a woman and then a lesbian committing a hate crime for refusing to bang him, that kind of thing.

The reason why I criticise you for spouting ideology is that terfery is not pragmatic. The pragmatic solution, imho, is:

Let trans women use whatever spaces they want
Let people (including kids) with GD access the healthcare that experts think is best
If anyone acts inappropriately in bathrooms or changing facilities, then the owner of the facility can remove them for whatever reason
If anyone commits a crime in a bathroom or changing facility, arrest them
Put non-sexual trans offenders in the institutions that the criminal justice system thinks would best protect them and other inmates.
Put trans offenders that committed sexual crimes in the nonce and rapist wards in whatever institution the criminal justice system thinks would best protect them and other inmates

tldr: let people do what they want to do. Let experts decide what's best. Don't think that your ideology makes you know more about the healthcare of people with GD than actual experts in the field. TransgenderTrend does not mean you know better than someone who spent seven years becoming an expert in a particular field of healthcare.

It seems to be like GCers seem to think they know better than experts and they espouse the most eye-rolling conspiracy theories to do so. "This doctor is willfully harming children because of money! Every single GP is in on the scam! I trust them wholeheartedly when they're telling me whether to be concerned about a lump or not, but when a kid talks to their doctor about gender dysphoria, I immediately distrust all doctors."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: thugler on July 24, 2020, 03:38:59 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 03:24:29 PM
You're not asking any questions about anything I actually wrote. Again, there's a name for asking off-topic 1-line questions about complex topics and then responding to actual explanations of the issues by saying "boring" or "too long" without a actually going on to deal with the details that come up - a Gish Gallop. Fine, do it, but don't then act like it's someone else's fault that you aren't having a useful conversation where you can engage with the important specifics of the topic.

You also can't say "this has happened without issue. Well, there have been some issues but you're not allowed to mention them." That's stupid. It's not "cherry-picking" to point to specific incidents that have been made possible by a law and to say that this indicates the consequences of the law. The question is whether these extra harms caused by the law are outweighed by the benefits the law has brought. But this being a topic that brings out the cultists on either side, no one ever seems to discuss things in those weighing-terms, only of saying you're evil if you allow one or the other kind of harm at all.

In practical terms, I think the proposed self-ID version of gender identity is bad because it opens things up to cynics. It's not that "trans women" should be banned from women's bathrooms, it's that the proposed laws allow any cynical man to have access to women's spaces under the cover of "transneess" without having to commit to verifiable grounds to show that they ARE a trans woman. The upshot of this is that trans women have to go through more paperwork rigmarole (the most difficult of which is currently a time delay after initial request) to get access to their spaces. But I think that's a compromise worth taking for the ability to not give cynical men free access to any women's areas.
As I said above I have no idea why bathrooms are the crux issue.

The number of cases are absolutely fuck all and you know it. There's plenty of evidence that the type of campaigning done by womens place and others has created fear and made trans peoples lives even more difficult.

Nothing is stopping 'cynics' from going into bathrooms now, and they haven't been doing this. Likewise other women's spaces have been accepting trans people for a long time with no issue, and no 'cynics' in disguise have been an issue. What hoops do you propose a person must go through before you give them 'verification' anyway? What's to stop cynics going through that?

So basically you have invented a problem bogeyman that doesn't exist in order to persecute a very small minority of people who get poorly treated already. There's no need for an abusive man to infiltrate a women's shelter to gain access to women. Not that these spaces don't have strong safeguarding policies in place anyway.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 03:42:45 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 03:20:28 PM
Do you accept that this is the Big Pharma Conspiracy Theory, and is equivalently unprovable and unscientific to claims that weed cures cancer but the Big Pharma doesn't want the public to know because it would reduce their profit margins? Terf criticism of healthcare is exactly as convincing as anti-vaxxers.

Also 'detransitioning is a thing' - it's like 1% of trans people, and most of those 1% didn't detransition because they were actually cis, it was because transphobia forced them back into the closet. Prevent people accessing healthcare that prevents suicide because a fraction of a percent might be getting the wrong healthcare?

The "Big Pharma" thing is a red herring - I think that private profit is an aggravating factor but much less important than the dubious medical/utilitarian grounds of early-age transition in the first place.
The suicide-reduction claim is pretty flimsy: really, look for any evidence in support of it. For obvious reasons it's very difficult to study these kinds of things in a reliably experimental way, and both gender-critical and transforkids people distort what actual data there is.
The only things that seem to be reliable are A) transness is rarely the only suicide-risk-factor in trans suicides, so it's very hard to isolate as a causal factor, B) transitioned people often still have suicide rates way above average and not so different from people who didn't transition, but again because of the difficulty of isolating transition it's hard to know what the causal factors are, C) transition and self-reported well-being seems to Either go heavily up or heavily down initially before reconverting toward pre-transition states, D) it's impossible to predict from Degree of dysphoria before transition which people will or won't be happiest after transition - ie, just because you're more dysphoric before doesn't mean you'll be happier after, or vice versa.
Combine that degree of uncertainty with the uncertainty over long-term health effects and dubiousness about the current scientific process of tracking those effects ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51806962 , http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf , etc).

Your point on detransition leaves out the number of people who initially requested surgery but desisted before it was complete. It seems reasonable that the earlier the medical intervention begins, the more people who would eventually have chosen not to transition will be transitioned. It's a significant enough number of people significantly harmed that there's a live issue of how to weigh the risks to such people with the dubious benefits of transition. The only way to make progress on this is with more study, but for now I'm unpersuaded by calls to give younger and younger children more and more autonomy over whether they immediately start medical interventions or not.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 03:45:44 PM
undeliberated, are you a doctor or scientist in this specific  field? If not, why are you showing me links to some web pages that you think agree with you that science is wrong? Do you not appreciate that this is entirely as convincing as an anti-vaxxer sharing some link to a BBC News article? Science does not work by some layperson on the internet saying what's wrong with current practices and understanding.

I spot a lot of other bollocks in your post too, such as the ignorance of how transition and affirmation reduces suicide risk. Again, too much shit to bother rebutting fully. Gish gallops?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 03:51:54 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 03:45:44 PM
undeliberated, are you a doctor or scientist in this specific  field? If not, why are you showing me links to some web pages that you think agree with you that science is wrong? Do you not appreciate that this is entirely as convincing as an anti-vaxxer sharing some link to a BBC News article? Science does not work by some layperson on the internet saying what's wrong with current practices and understanding.

I spot a lot of other bollocks in your post too, such as the ignorance of how transition and affirmation reduces suicide risk. Again, too much shit to bother rebutting fully. Gish gallops?

I can understand not being arsed to write a full rebuttal, but surely it doesn't matter what undeliberated's job is?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on July 24, 2020, 03:53:59 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:10:49 PM
No point carrying on with the Gish Gallop of bollocks thrown out in this thread (standard internet practice). But look...
Here are the nonsense claims thrown out in response to two very basic points I made (1, Phoneshop; 2, it's silly to say "anyone who says phrase X is in a cult" when phrase X names the topic that people are arguing about):

If you want people to read your long post, can you take the time to, at the very least, craft a readable first paragraph?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 03:58:20 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 03:51:54 PM
I can understand not being arsed to write a full rebuttal, but surely it doesn't matter what undeliberated's job is?

It does to me. I defer to experts. Call it a logical fallacy if you like, idgaf, as a layperson I can't be expected to know all there is to know about transgender healthcare, but I do know that I am happy going along with the consensus of experts. I remember reading that Dawkins and some other fella argued about some small aspect of evolution, or Hawkins and some other fella arguing about some convoluted science and making little bets with each other. It is absolutely ridiculous for me to try to take a strong stance in any of these debates.

Someone on here might be able to write up something or link to a blog that would convince me that climate change is fake. This does not mean that climate change is fake. I do not have the ability to understand all the different fields of science that show climate change is real.

Similarly, I might go to a doctor and they tell me that a lump is cancer, and then I might go talk to undeliberated who makes a far more convincing argument that it's a benign cyst. When it comes to the question of 'what healthcare option is best', I'd be a fool to go with the convincing person rather than the actual healthcare professional.

Us laypeople arguing about what healthcare options is best for trans kids is just as constructive as laypeople arguing about whether my lump is cancer or a cyst.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: jobotic on July 24, 2020, 03:58:39 PM
undeliberated - do you think trans women are women?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: daf on July 24, 2020, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 03:51:54 PM
surely it doesn't matter what undeliberated's job is?

Something to do with Galloping Gish?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 04:03:50 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 03:45:44 PM
undeliberated, are you a doctor or scientist in this specific  field? If not, why are you showing me links to some web pages that you think agree with you that science is wrong? Do you not appreciate that this is entirely as convincing as an anti-vaxxer sharing some link to a BBC News article?

I am indeed in a related academic field. I have collaborators on the feminist theory or women's studies side of things, and collaborators who are a couple of Kevin Bacons away from people publishing on these issues on the legal side, and then more Kevin Bacons away on the medical side. But my work requires me to be very loosely up on each. That's meaningless for the purposes of this thread, though - just read what I write and see whether it makes sense: not appealing to authority, just to the actual existing traditions of thought about these topics, which it doesn't help anyone to ignore or caricature.

I'm not asking you to agree with me because I pasted a link; I'm asking you to read the link for yourself and work out whether it contains anything that would change your pre-made-up mind. Both of the links above involve the actual medical practitioners talking about the uncertainty of the treatments they're working with and gaps in tracking effects, and how this would or wouldn't affect their treatment choices in different institutions. That's important stuff worth reading.


Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 04:06:21 PM
Quote from: jobotic on July 24, 2020, 03:58:39 PM
undeliberated - do you think trans women are women?

I think there are numerous simultaneously viable definitions of "woman" and that trans women fit most but not all of them. The fact that there are Any they don't fit means that there are Some situations where the basic entitlements of cis women and trans women come into conflict, and I don't think it's helpful to pretend those situations don't exist - for those situations, we need to work out the relative weight of the harms that come to either group in different policy frameworks.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 04:08:27 PM
I've got no issues with medical professionals discussing the efficacy of puberty blockers and whether or not the treatment of kids with GD needs to be tweaked or refined. If they change the consensus on best treatment for trans kids, then they change my mind along with it.

Also I don't think Tavistock is necessarily flawless and if the whistleblowing accusations are correct then it needs wholesale change at the top.

None of this, I think, supports the GC position in the slightest.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on July 24, 2020, 04:09:26 PM
"Anyhow, won't waste more time on this."

Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 03:04:00 PM
"theory and ideology" is a very dismissive term for basic argument about the distinction between gender and sex and why the latter can't be fully subsumed within the former. How are people supposed to discuss practical questions arising from that distinction without attempting to define terms and relationships? And surely the whole point of a basic materialist feminism is that sex has a pre-theoretical identifiable and tangible basis whereas "gender" or "identity" don't. You can't propose to replace a material category with a theoretical one and then attack people who question the grounds of the theory in theoretical terms.  There are huge parts of the basic concept of gender identity that have NO grounding beyond the theoretical (eg, why should subjective gender-identity be treated as infallibly accurate and part of a person's essence when things like phantom limbs show how consistently mistaken we can be in our first-person experience of the world). There's no position on these practical questions that can evade the need for a coherent theoretical grounding.

Don't care about bathrooms at all - I think it's a very minor issue that gender critical people make way too much of.

I don't think children should be having irreversible life-altering medical intervention on the basis of how they Feel - less so the younger they are. First-person experience is extremely fallible, and people's identity-conceptions change a lot over their early years. Detransitioning is a thing, mental health increase is very sporadic and unpredictable after transition. So I don't think anyone under 18 should be having unreliable permanent medical interventions on the basis of a subjective identification, especially not when the decision is often taken in consultation with lobby groups and private medical practitioners who stand to make money out of the operation with no liability for whatever happens afterwards.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 24, 2020, 04:10:24 PM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 24, 2020, 04:17:29 AM
I haven't used this forum proper in about seven years. It had turned into a pile of bollocks when I left but it's really gone full blown now... What are you up to now, with this thread? PART SIX of mass obsequious agreement and cravenly patting each other on the back? And giddily glorifying someone's demise who has a difference of opinion than you? I know there have been been some anomalies to the rule for about 600 pages now.. but fuck all.

This post has nothing to do with The Trans Issue (C) but, to reiterate, but what what a seething, boring, arse kissing mess of one-way conversation this place now is. Come on shake things up! I'll join you again in Part XI or however long this keeps crawling on for...
Olav, come back! How will we cope without your once-every-seven-years presence?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 04:12:32 PM
I'm not an ideologue. I'm a pragmatist. If it turns out that letting trans women use the ladies toilets or affirmation therapy for GD causes more harm than it prevents, I would no longer support it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chedney Honks on July 24, 2020, 04:20:12 PM
Feel like pure shit just wanna fold my cock up into my bollocks so I can go in the ladies bogs
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 04:21:16 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 04:12:32 PM
I'm not an ideologue. I'm a pragmatist. If it turns out that letting trans women use the ladies toilets or affirmation therapy for GD causes more harm than it prevents, I would no longer support it.

Me too, but with the starting position flipped. That's the only proper approach.

Anyhow, I won't spend my life on here: I only posted in the first place because I find it absurd that people post so glibly and dismissively about the Nazi-ness of worldviews they show 0 familiarity with. Cookdandbombd didn't use to be like this, but that's the internet... Gender Critical Feminism has flaws but it's not 'hateful', it just involves following the implications from not thinking that 'gender identity' entirely subsumes 'sex.'

So if you're open-minded on that basic principle, two simple reading suggestions from above -

First that Spanish Socialist Party explanation of why "sex based rights" exist and are important -
https://womansplaceuk.org/2020/07/16/statement-spanish-socialist-party-sex-based-rights/
It's just basically covering first material feminist principles but I think it's actually really good: clear and covers all the basics in a nicely structured way.

Then very recent thing from the Modern Law Review on the legal implications of eliding the distinction between sex and gender identity in favour of the latter
https://www.modernlawreview.co.uk/asteriti-bull-sharpe/
I think there are some mis-steps in the logic but it's right about what the main issues are and how they come from not being able to fully erase sex.

Resist the temptation to ignore them because you might get terf cooties, have a read through them and see whether they make sense.

That's me out...
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chedney Honks on July 24, 2020, 04:21:52 PM
Press (X) to Doubt
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 24, 2020, 04:25:23 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 04:21:16 PM
First that Spanish Socialist Party explanation of why "sex based rights" exist and are important -
https://womansplaceuk.org/2020/07/16/statement-spanish-socialist-party-sex-based-rights/
It's just basically covering first material feminist principles but I think it's actually really good: clear and covers all the basics in a nicely structured way.
The Spanish Socialist Party are just like any other European social-democratic party, by the way, don't be fooled by the name.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 04:30:05 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 03:42:45 PM
Combine that degree of uncertainty with the uncertainty over long-term health effects and dubiousness about the current scientific process of tracking those effects ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51806962 , http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf , etc).

Biggs Experiment pdf hosted on Oxford webspace so it looks more official - hey I recognise that, it's by Quillette's (https://quillette.com/2019/08/01/how-feminism-paved-the-way-for-transgenderism/) Michael Biggs!

https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2018/10/26/transphobic-tweets-linked-to-oxford-sociology-professor/
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on July 24, 2020, 04:32:00 PM
Are you saying that when he said

Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 04:25:23 PM
There ain't no party like The Spanish Socialist Party

He was lying?!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 04:33:36 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 04:30:05 PM
Biggs Experiment pdf hosted on Oxford webspace so it looks more official - hey I recognise that, it's by Quillette's Michael Biggs!

https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2018/10/26/transphobic-tweets-linked-to-oxford-sociology-professor/


I did think that PDF looked weird, it certainly didn't read like an unbiased literature review by experts. And it's by a sociology professor! That's a bit like a sociology professors' critique of climate change.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: earl_sleek on July 24, 2020, 04:38:03 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 04:21:16 PM
Gender Critical Feminism has flaws but it's not 'hateful', it just involves following the implications from not thinking that 'gender identity' entirely subsumes 'sex.'

Unfortunate then that a great deal of proponents have demonstrably acted in hateful ways, as recorded in the various glinner threads.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 04:42:19 PM
Quote from: earl_sleek on July 24, 2020, 04:38:03 PM
Unfortunate then that a great deal of proponents have demonstrably acted in hateful ways, as recorded in the various glinner threads.

To be fair, that's true of almost any point of view one could name.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 04:46:23 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 04:30:05 PM
Biggs Experiment pdf hosted on Oxford webspace so it looks more official - hey I recognise that, it's by Quillette's (https://quillette.com/2019/08/01/how-feminism-paved-the-way-for-transgenderism/) Michael Biggs!

https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2018/10/26/transphobic-tweets-linked-to-oxford-sociology-professor/

That's an incredibly mealy-mouthed article:

QuoteIn order to substantiate the allegations made that the true identity of the Tweeter was Professor Biggs, it was found that the account in question could be linked to a partial phone number and Yahoo! email using freely available data and by making use of Twitter's various functions. The Yahoo! email itself is also linked to a phone number ending in the same numbers as those previously identified, while also revealing that it is connected to the email address m**********gs@sociology.ox.ac.uk.

"It was found that"? They doxxed him, or if they didn't they published all the results of someone else doxxing him. The guy seems to be a cunt, but seriously The Oxford Student - have the balls to say you doxxed him or don't publish the details.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: earl_sleek on July 24, 2020, 04:49:51 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 04:42:19 PM
To be fair, that's true of almost any point of view one could name.

Some a lot more than others.

EDIT: and also with a much clearer link behind the stated goals and ideas of the group with some than others.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 04:50:58 PM
Quote from: earl_sleek on July 24, 2020, 04:49:51 PM
Some a lot more than others.

I think it's probably related to how many people care about the subject, and how strongly they care.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: earl_sleek on July 24, 2020, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 04:50:58 PM
I think it's probably related to how many people care about the subject, and how strongly they care.

I don't think that's untrue, but it doesn't seem sufficient either. Clearly some groups exhibit more hateful behaviour than others of similar size and attachment. It's reasonable that the motives and ideals of the group are a significant factor.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: thugler on July 24, 2020, 05:37:36 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 04:12:32 PM
I'm not an ideologue. I'm a pragmatist. If it turns out that letting trans women use the ladies toilets or affirmation therapy for GD causes more harm than it prevents, I would no longer support it.

There's no need to see how 'it turns out'. It's already happened and already found to make no difference (in the case of toilets) and to be beneficial.  What's caused damage is this idea that either one of these things is dangerous or wrong.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 24, 2020, 05:46:40 PM
Glad I missed this happening tbh.

Find it increasingly undignified to engage in 'debates' about my right to exist (lol).
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 24, 2020, 05:50:54 PM
Quote from: thugler on July 24, 2020, 05:37:36 PM
There's no need to see how 'it turns out'. It's already happened and already found to make no difference (in the case of toilets) and to be beneficial.  What's caused damage is this idea that either one of these things is dangerous or wrong.

Yep I agree. It was kind of a philosophical point. Like if the scientific consensus on the theory of relativity did an abrupt volte-face after some new and compelling evidence emerged, then I would go with the flow.

Letting people piss where they want to has been happening for long enough for us to know that it's the right thing to do.

What's more likely is that they'll find some other drug that has fewer side-effects than existing puberty blockers but is largely the same and prescribe that instead.

I guess I mean I'm more open-minded to the possibility that I am wrong, but I know that the things that will change my mind relate to a change in the scientific consensus rather than someone trying to convince me on an internet forum. Just like I am open-minded to the possibility that it might one day be shown that evolution is wrong, but it's not gonna be a blog from a layperson that convinces me.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 24, 2020, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 02:56:18 PM
Sorry - I should have been clearer. These aren't 'new' issues in themselves; they relate to conceptual and semantic boundaries/conflicts and they have always existed. The thing is that as trans people continue to make progress against the assumption that they are disordered/sick, the conflicts become more obvious and more people feel threatened in the semantic space they occupy.

seriously, what the fuck are you going on about.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Endicott on July 24, 2020, 06:46:51 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 04:21:16 PM
it's not 'hateful', it just involves following the implications from not thinking that 'gender identity' entirely subsumes 'sex.'

Is this a reasonable characterisation of the implications of self-id? Or of the behaviour and/or philosophy of trans activists? Really I thought that it was just based around improving trans access to the medical establishment.

The statement in this web site also contains the same.
https://womansplaceuk.org/2020/07/16/statement-spanish-socialist-party-sex-based-rights/
QuoteGender is an analytical tool that is now being exploited by certain movements to replace the very concept of sex.

Just seems weird, and I can't think of any examples.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: pigamus on July 24, 2020, 06:49:54 PM
In terms of people slagging off these threads and CaB in general - I think these Glinner threads are actually pretty civilised. There's no massive bitter shitfest holocaust between Terfs and non-Terfs or anything like that. Certain ethical issues come up - carbonara etc. - but the fact that they're discussed at length is a plus, not a minus. Notable lack of trolls as well. How far CaB has fallen? Pretty weak example imo.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on July 24, 2020, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: Endicott on July 24, 2020, 06:46:51 PM
Is this a reasonable characterisation of the implications of self-id? Or of the behaviour and/or philosophy of trans activists? Really I thought that it was just based around improving trans access to the medical establishment.

The statement in this web site also contains the same.
https://womansplaceuk.org/2020/07/16/statement-spanish-socialist-party-sex-based-rights/
Just seems weird, and I can't think of any examples.

Yeah, if anything the gender critical lot are the ones trying to blur the lines between gender and sex (hence "sex-based rights"). One of the key points of trans theory is that gender and sex are separate things and should be treated as such. It's Rowling et Al who want to make "woman" subsume and replace the concept of biological sex.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 07:07:12 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 24, 2020, 06:41:37 PM
seriously, what the fuck are you going on about.

PM me if you'd genuinely like an explanation :)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: crankshaft on July 24, 2020, 07:36:18 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 24, 2020, 02:10:49 PM
<endless ranting snipped>

Hi Sian!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 24, 2020, 08:06:46 PM
Quote from: crankshaft on July 24, 2020, 07:36:18 PM
Hi Sian!
More likely to be manticore tbh, he was given the bun a while ago and I doubt he could keep his mouth shut.

p.s. Nice to see the Sensible and Reasonable Debate faction on Twitter having a laugh about taking all our human rights away (https://twitter.com/TooBadger/status/1286334674839769091). Just a joke like on Top Gear, innit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 08:09:59 PM
Quote from: Endicott on July 24, 2020, 06:46:51 PM
Is this a reasonable characterisation of the implications of self-id? Or of the behaviour and/or philosophy of trans activists? Really I thought that it was just based around improving trans access to the medical establishment.

I think this argument stems from the assertion that there are no reasonable grounds for differentiating between trans women and women. This implies that sexual dimorphism isn't a reasonable ground for such a distinction. I agree it's a reach to then argue that this implies that sexual dimorphism is irrelevant in all cases, but I think that's where that view starts.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 24, 2020, 08:11:47 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 08:09:59 PM
I think this argument stems from the assertion that there are no reasonable grounds for differentiating between trans women and women. This implies that sexual dimorphism isn't a reasonable ground for such a distinction. I agree it's a reach to then argue that this implies that sexual dimorphism is irrelevant in all cases, but I think that's where that view starts.
In what context?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 24, 2020, 08:31:44 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 08:09:59 PM
I think this argument stems from the assertion that there are no reasonable grounds for differentiating between trans women and women.

*Sigh*

What are these 'reasonable grounds' that make sense in the real actual world? If you can give me a real, personal answer instead of the same baity GC hypothesising that would be sick.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chedney Honks on July 24, 2020, 08:37:10 PM
Amazing that anyone talks to these cunts like they're human 🤣🤣🤣
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 24, 2020, 08:47:53 PM
Yeah actually don't reply to that I don't think I can be arsed.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 09:00:43 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 08:09:59 PM
I think this argument stems from the assertion that there are no reasonable grounds for differentiating between trans women and women. This implies that sexual dimorphism isn't a reasonable ground for such a distinction. I agree it's a reach to then argue that this implies that sexual dimorphism is irrelevant in all cases, but I think that's where that view starts.

I think I prefer Katy Montgomerie's take tbh:

QuoteThis is a very common "Gender Critical" (read anti-trans) rhetorical device. It is an attempt to create a false dichotomy between supporting trans rights and just agreeing with the entire field of biology.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 24, 2020, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: canadagoose on July 24, 2020, 08:06:46 PM
p.s. Nice to see the Sensible and Reasonable Debate faction on Twitter having a laugh about taking all our human rights away (https://twitter.com/TooBadger/status/1286334674839769091). Just a joke like on Top Gear, innit.
god the fucking shit in that thread

yeah trans women don't experience the wage gap caused by motherhood because an alarming number of them are unemployed you ignorant fuck

yes even in Ireland where you can self-ID and by the way nothing bad has happened

imagine being so goddamn brain dead that you think trans women are "co-opting the struggle"

yeah fuckboxes since being a woman is so terrible why aren't all of you transitioning then

huh?

oh what's that, you "feel like a woman" and you've never had to question it

HMMMMMM.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on July 24, 2020, 09:50:49 PM
Imaging being a maid and having to wipe up all the dribble, semen and faecal matter away from the mouths and hands of these knuckle draggers, all day.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: jobotic on July 24, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
That Mister Badger seems like the most tedious neckbeard self-satisfied man imaginable. This is one of his non-offensive tweets.

Quote
Mister Badger
@TooBadger
·
22 Jul
I always thought they chose morons for reality shows to give the viewers something to laugh at. Apparently it's to give the viewers something they'll identify with.

Imagine the huge gratifying sniff he took of his body odour after he wrote that.



I think that probably was Manticore earlier. What a shame all that was after his Charles Addams thread, which was ace.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 24, 2020, 10:59:03 PM
it's obviously not him
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Gregory Torso on July 24, 2020, 11:40:57 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on July 24, 2020, 09:50:49 PM
Imaging being a maid and having to wipe up all the dribble, semen and faecal matter away from the mouths and hands of these knuckle draggers, all day.

Imagine being a maid and having to wipe up David Byrne's immaculate trouser-pressed shit coils without saying a fucking word because you're barely able to feed your family as it is working below the breadline and hey he is a genius after all so if he wants to shit on a bed after bumping his head on a desk rehearsing the pigeon bop then that's fine, i'll wipe it all up and be glad I have a job, i'll take his dirty protest and be glad of a mention in the drummer's memoir and maybe when he's dead I'll go to his grave and squeeze out my own '"slippery person" and then write 'for the Dave' above it in the dirt
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 11:53:47 PM
MISTER BADGER?!??! lol how random. badgers cant have titles
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Hand Solo on July 24, 2020, 11:57:17 PM
Quote from: idunnosomename on July 24, 2020, 11:53:47 PM
MISTER BADGER?!??! lol how random. badgers cant have titles

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/S742VIUGDgs/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 25, 2020, 12:19:15 AM
I GUESS BADGERS CAN SELF-ID NOW>?!??!?! COULDNT MAKE IT UP!! ARFH!cfvxx.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chollis on July 25, 2020, 12:31:49 AM
Quote from: Hand Solo on July 24, 2020, 11:57:17 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/S742VIUGDgs/hqdefault.jpg)

christ, haven't seen that since i was in year 3
Title: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 02:25:17 AM
See below.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 02:29:04 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 02:25:17 AM
Oh great, not joining in with the mass self-satisfied circle jerk gets my post DELETED by some cunt then.

What part of "Shut UP. Fuck OFF" have you not understood.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 02:31:33 AM
DELETED BY NEIL - NEIL.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 02:35:12 AM
DELETED BY NEIL - NEIL
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 02:37:20 AM
see above
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 02:39:53 AM
DELETED BY NEIL -NEIL
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 02:44:49 AM
yawn

Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 02:48:54 AM
Now carry on...

P.s. on a serious note - well I wouldn't go that far. I did post a post last night pointing out the total lack of room for debate - or dissent, or anything at all -  on this forum these days, not to mention seemingly all the interesting, eccentric, unusual posters -  I used to enjoy reading - being no where to be seen anymore . And my post was deleted by the admins straight from the off. Wiped from the ether. Must have touched a nerve. If this survives to be read, to read that... Now go and gang up in mass celebration on those with differing viewpoints again from yours and you'll be kosher..
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: selectivememory on July 25, 2020, 03:04:43 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 02:48:54 AM
Now carry on...

P.s. on a serious note - well I wouldn't go that far. I did post a post last night pointed out the total lack of room of debate - or dissent, or anything at all -  on this forum these days, not to mention seemingly all the interesting, eccentric, unusual posters -  I used to enjoy reading - being no where to be seen anymore . And my post was deleted by the admins from straight from the off. Wiped from the ether. Must have touched a nerve. Over and out. If this survives to be read... Now go and gang up on those with differing viewpoints again from yours and you'll be kosher..

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,80965.msg4272393.html#msg4272393

(it was moved to the thread for talking about the Glinner threads)
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 03:11:35 AM
Can I see what I did there?

I can't.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 03:12:30 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 02:31:33 AM
DELETED BY NEIL - NEIL.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:44:31 AM by Olav Magnus Moksheim ( »

lol
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 03:14:28 AM
Well I've still got a chip on my shoulder about having posts deleted by him a decade ago. Then banning me. I've never recovered. And what with the recent face mask enforcement to boot..
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 03:47:27 AM
Are you bastards still actually LOLing these days? And do you mean it or what? I do regret editing one of my posts though to make a fraudulent point though.. I did go briefly into detail about a sexual experience with a transgender, and was complimentary, before calling you all cunts.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: bgmnts on July 25, 2020, 03:57:42 AM
What the actual fuck?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 04:02:32 AM
Don't mind me.. up to a bit of shadow boxing gearing up for Round 3. Give me a few days.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on July 25, 2020, 05:37:03 AM
God, we've attracted someone even more boring, fragile and obsessive than Glinner.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 25, 2020, 05:38:33 AM
..
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: easytarget on July 25, 2020, 06:03:17 AM
It's a shaaaaaame about Gra(ham (Linehan))
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phes on July 25, 2020, 06:10:55 AM
On a suspended twitter profile his name is still engraved
some things need to shut UP!! fuck OFF!!
shame, shame
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on July 25, 2020, 08:33:25 AM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 04:02:32 AM
Don't mind me.. up to a bit of shadow boxing gearing up for Round 3. Give me a few days.

Olaf skips about, occasionally punching himself in the face
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: undeliberated on July 25, 2020, 10:47:03 AM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 24, 2020, 04:30:05 PM
Biggs Experiment pdf hosted on Oxford webspace so it looks more official - hey I recognise that, it's by Quillette's[/URL] Michael Biggs!


Academics host drafts of working papers on their institutional web pages all the time. It's not some sinister conspiracy.

The time to try and discredit that link on the basis of where it comes from has passed. Biggs uploaded that this time last year, since when the BBC and newsnight have conducted a parallel investigation and ratified the basics; past and present staff from Tavistock have also gone on the record confirming things in Bigg's investigation.

All your contributions to the thread are mock-incredulous excuses for not actually dealing with clearly relevant material. Anyone can read the link for themselves, and see that (as ratified by the BBC, Tavistock staff, etc) it raises serious doubts about whether the most common chemical interventions for pre-transition children are actually long-term safe. This is clearly relevant to JaDanketies's claim about the relative benefits and harms of early-age intervention, especially as it relates to suicide (the most alarming things Biggs finds is that negative findings about the treatment program were being systematically unreported - for example, that in one cluster the standard drug program INCREASED suicidal behaviour).

What Biggs reports is not really in dispute - he raised it last year, the BBC and staff from the program have confirmed it, the upshot is that we're further away than has been implied from conclusive understanding of the long-term risks from the currently dominant pre-transition children's intervention program. Anyone who cares about the issue I and JaDanketies are disagreeing about - whether the harms risked by medical intervention for trans-identifying children outweigh the known benefits - should bear this in mind among all their other considerations. It's basic competence.

Anyhow, I just don't understand what you get out of all this performative dismissal of stuff you clearly aren't aware of.
What are you worried is going to happen if you sit down and engage with the relevant facts, distinctions, and arguments, rather than pre-emptively casting them away because A MONSTER TOUCHED THEM (a monster you couldn't accurately describe if your life depended on it)?

Other people reading this, you can work on the principle that the harder Neil works to dismiss something without reading it, the more relevant it probably is. Kudos to JaDanketies for, by contrast, engaging like an actual human. That'll do me for this thread.

When did cookdandbombd start standing for proudly wilful ignorance?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chedney Honks on July 25, 2020, 11:07:03 AM
Same time we all folded our cocks up the gooch and had a cunt on
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 25, 2020, 11:13:35 AM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 25, 2020, 10:47:03 AM
When did cookdandbombd start standing for proudly wilful ignorance?

funny that its always soft cunts like you who say that
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: MojoJojo on July 25, 2020, 12:02:24 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 25, 2020, 10:47:03 AM

Academics host drafts of working papers on their institutional web pages all the time. It's not some sinister conspiracy.

The time to try and discredit that link on the basis of where it comes from has passed. Biggs uploaded that this time last year, since when the BBC and newsnight have conducted a parallel investigation and ratified the basics; past and present staff from Tavistock have also gone on the record confirming things in Bigg's investigation.

All your contributions to the thread are mock-incredulous excuses for not actually dealing with clearly relevant material. Anyone can read the link for themselves, and see that (as ratified by the BBC, Tavistock staff, etc) it raises serious doubts about whether the most common chemical interventions for pre-transition children are actually long-term safe. This is clearly relevant to JaDanketies's claim about the relative benefits and harms of early-age intervention, especially as it relates to suicide (the most alarming things Biggs finds is that negative findings about the treatment program were being systematically unreported - for example, that in one cluster the standard drug program INCREASED suicidal behaviour).

What Biggs reports is not really in dispute - he raised it last year, the BBC and staff from the program have confirmed it, the upshot is that we're further away than has been implied from conclusive understanding of the long-term risks from the currently dominant pre-transition children's intervention program. Anyone who cares about the issue I and JaDanketies are disagreeing about - whether the harms risked by medical intervention for trans-identifying children outweigh the known benefits - should bear this in mind among all their other considerations. It's basic competence.

Anyhow, I just don't understand what you get out of all this performative dismissal of stuff you clearly aren't aware of.
What are you worried is going to happen if you sit down and engage with the relevant facts, distinctions, and arguments, rather than pre-emptively casting them away because A MONSTER TOUCHED THEM (a monster you couldn't accurately describe if your life depended on it)?

Other people reading this, you can work on the principle that the harder Neil works to dismiss something without reading it, the more relevant it probably is. Kudos to JaDanketies for, by contrast, engaging like an actual human. That'll do me for this thread.

When did cookdandbombd start standing for proudly wilful ignorance?

Surely the key point here is that it's up to medical professionals to decide, not random people off the internet who suddenly become medical experts when it comes to trans people?

It's the same as the trans people in sport issues - there are professional bodies who spend all their time looking at the ethical and scientific issues, but as soon as trans people are mentioned lots of random internet people suddenly become passionately interested in and self-proclaimed experts in medicine, psychology and women's wrestling.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dex Sawash on July 25, 2020, 12:31:32 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 02:42:08 PM
As any software developer will tell you, progression in one area often unintentionally creates regression in another. The trick is to clock this then work to make sure both sets of progression can co-exist.

Just develop non-binary code

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on July 25, 2020, 01:01:10 PM
The best developers remove code.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 25, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: MojoJojo on July 25, 2020, 12:02:24 PM
Surely the key point here is that it's up to medical professionals to decide, not random people off the internet who suddenly become medical experts when it comes to trans people?

Exactly. It's like if some layperson starts spouting off about climate change being a scam, or CO2 not being a greenhouse gas, it's not because they are an expert in all the reams of science relating to climate change. It is because some other aspect of their ideology makes them distrust the experts in this particular field. It's up to the experts to have "serious doubts".

If there is a large conspiracy that means kids get harmed because doctors want to earn money, then that warrants some serious investigation and it would impact more than just trans healthcare. I can kinda see that this might be the case with wholly-unnecessary stuff that is done on a routine basis to all children - primarily infant circumcision in the US - but there's a big element of it being a cultural norm there. Here in the UK, we're not so hot on spending money on healthcare that we don't have to spend.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cuellar on July 25, 2020, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 04:02:32 AM
Don't mind me.. up to a bit of shadow boxing gearing up for Round 3. Give me a few days.

What the fuck are you evening going on about
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 25, 2020, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: Chedney Honks on July 25, 2020, 11:07:03 AM
Same time we all folded our cocks up the gooch and had a cunt on
I'm having a cunt-on reading this thread.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 25, 2020, 02:00:27 PM
Quote from: Chedney Honks on July 25, 2020, 11:07:03 AM
Same time we all folded our cocks up the gooch and had a cunt on

I believe if you do so then you're allowed to spend all day naked in the ladies' changing rooms and if anyone complains it's a hate crime
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: evilcommiedictator on July 25, 2020, 02:04:08 PM
BEARD
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Flouncer on July 25, 2020, 02:05:12 PM
Quote from: Olav Magnus Moksheim ( on July 25, 2020, 02:48:54 AM...not to mention seemingly all the interesting, eccentric, unusual posters -  I used to enjoy reading - being no where to be seen anymore .

They've fucking died, mate. I suppose that's Neil's fault an all?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 25, 2020, 02:08:40 PM
I think you'll find this forum is entering a new golden era, as I have signed up
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 25, 2020, 02:32:54 PM
Perverts. Avoid any controversy by staying in the men's changing rooms and pushing your penis into the faces of little boys.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner Six Not Gender: Beyond Twitterdome: Racecar, backwards
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 25, 2020, 04:48:48 PM
Quote from: Flouncer on July 25, 2020, 02:05:12 PMThey've fucking died, mate.

Actually quite a bit of truth in that, sadly.


Quote from: JaDanketies on July 25, 2020, 02:08:40 PMI think you'll find this forum is entering a new golden era, as I have signed up

Actually quite a bit of truth in that, happily.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 06:18:02 PM
Quote from: undeliberated on July 25, 2020, 10:47:03 AM


When did cookdandbombd start standing for proudly wilful ignorance?

I'm sorry everyone is being a cunt with you. We're not all like that. Sometimes it seems people here just want people to agree with them. I've tried talking about anti-semitism in the Labour party and got insulted and told 'we've already discussed that, nothing to see here', tried talking about problems with Islam and terrorism got accused of racism, I asked questions about Trans people and got told I was ignorant...

It's just the nature of the beast, people don't like contrarianism or anything that bursts the bubble or asking too many questions. The hostility really makes me avoid certain subjects. So I just stick to films, comedy, games and such and leave these kind of discussions to more balanced forums/sites.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 06:30:45 PM
Pffffttt.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 25, 2020, 06:33:00 PM
you're not a martyr, you just get a bit of stick when you're talking bollocks.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 25, 2020, 06:38:09 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 06:18:02 PM
I'm sorry everyone is being a cunt with you. We're not all like that. Sometimes it seems people here just want people to agree with them. I've tried talking about anti-semitism in the Labour party and got insulted and told 'we've already discussed that, nothing to see here', tried talking about problems with Islam and terrorism got accused of racism, I asked questions about Trans people and got told I was ignorant...

It's just the nature of the beast, people don't like contrarianism or anything that bursts the bubble or asking too many questions. The hostility really makes me avoid certain subjects. So I just stick to films, comedy, games and such and leave these kind of discussions to more balanced forums/sites.

Sorry to say I do agree with this, and indeed the other thread about the history of this forum is reminding me that things have not always been this way here.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on July 25, 2020, 06:39:11 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 06:30:45 PM
Pffffttt.

I think you're doing a bang-up job on this really barry. I dunno if my thoughts 100% align with the general consensus in that thread all the time, but the fact I'm constantly re-evaluating my thoughts (a bit like if one accepts one is racist and they want to be less racist), and the fact it's broadly made me more aware of such issues is a net positive. And hiving the bollocks off is generally good given you're clearly priding yourself on the fact this place is managing to be a refuge for people outwith the core purpose of the site is great.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 06:42:27 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 06:30:45 PM
Pffffttt.

Only speaking from personal experience man, I'm just saying there's a few topics I try and avoid because of the pile-ons and insults. This forum is fantastic generally and I'm not insulting you or anyone in particular. I even stated I try and stick to certain subforums now as it's not worth the hassle.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 06:44:23 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 25, 2020, 06:33:00 PM
you're not a martyr, you just get a bit of stick when you're talking bollocks.

I never claimed to be a martyr, just speaking from personal experience. It does hurt sometimes when posters you look up to /like/ respect suddenly decide you're a cunt because you're asking questions that may have been asked before, or perhaps come from a different walk of life that doesn't necessarily align with others or their views.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 25, 2020, 06:44:26 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 06:42:27 PM
Only speaking from personal experience man, I'm just saying there's a few topics I try and avoid because of the pile-ons and insults. This forum is fantastic generally and I'm not insulting you or anyone in particular. I even stated I try and stick to certain subforums now as it's not worth the hassle.

Yeah to be clear I don't think this is something moderation can solve...
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 07:11:13 PM
Sebastian: thanks very much :-D

Pdine and Kryton: if you think this bloke is being hard done by, then I don't know what to say to you. Perhaps have a look back at how insulting and supercilious he's been throughout the past couple of days, and then take it as read that some of us are simply not willing to expend the energy on playing pigeon chess with some arsey nobber.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 25, 2020, 07:18:23 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 07:11:13 PMPdine and Kryton: if you think this bloke is being hard done by, then I don't know what to say to you.

Thanks for the reply, and please don't think I'm asking for any particular moderation response.

QuotePerhaps have a look back at how insulting and supercilious he's been throughout the past couple of days, and then take it as read that some of us are simply not willing to expend the energy on playing pigeon chess with some arsey nobber.

I will, although I wonder if I'll find anything as outright cunty as, for example:

QuoteAmazing that anyone talks to these cunts like they're human 🤣🤣🤣

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 07:31:35 PM
Since when do we have to be nice to trolls who come in and insult us all? I know exactly what he means by that, I think. It's like the guys who try to engage in discussion with Paulie Walnuts, or the people who spent years trying to get biggy to admit he was wrong about any one single solitary thing. Fair fucks if that's your bag, but I don't have the energy this week.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 07:33:44 PM
Fair enough, I might be guilty of not reading threads all the way through.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on July 25, 2020, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 06:18:02 PM
I'm sorry everyone is being a cunt with you. We're not all like that. Sometimes it seems people here just want people to agree with them. I've tried talking about anti-semitism in the Labour party and got insulted and told 'we've already discussed that, nothing to see here', tried talking about problems with Islam and terrorism got accused of racism, I asked questions about Trans people and got told I was ignorant...

It's just the nature of the beast, people don't like contrarianism or anything that bursts the bubble or asking too many questions. The hostility really makes me avoid certain subjects. So I just stick to films, comedy, games and such and leave these kind of discussions to more balanced forums/sites.

It shouldn't be balanced should it? Most people shouldn'y be cunts and have div views should they?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on July 25, 2020, 07:50:55 PM
fwiw I asked some TERFy questions on trans issues on here a while back and got a short shrift, went into a brief "christ, you can't even ASK" sulk, then remembered I can look up answers to the questions instead of asking to be spoon fed and it changed my thinking on a lot of things
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on July 25, 2020, 07:54:08 PM
I sometimes feel the glinner threads have elements of groupthink, but - and this is important, I accept I am ultimately ignorant on the issue and that thread is full of people who understand the issue better than me and also people of whom it directly affects whose experiences have been backed not only their own experiences, but also lots of professional research at which point I tend to start doing a big think or give up and accept they know what they're talking about because I can't be arsed. I think this makes me at best a "passive ally", which seems fair enough really.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bronzy on July 25, 2020, 07:58:20 PM
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on July 25, 2020, 07:54:08 PM
I sometimes feel the glinner threads have elements of groupthink, but - and this is important, I accept I am ultimately ignorant on the issue and that thread is full of people who understand the issue better than me and also people of whom it directly affects whose experiences have been backed not only their own experiences, but also lots of professional research at which point I tend to start doing a big think or give up and accept they know what they're talking about because I can't be arsed.

Totally agree, I now do this for any serious thread (politics, world issues, etc) because I'm ignorant on pretty much all current events.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on July 25, 2020, 07:59:03 PM
Quote from: Bronzy on July 25, 2020, 07:58:20 PM
Totally agree, I now do this for any serious thread (politics, world issues, etc) because I'm ignorant on pretty much all current events.

basically yes
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bronzy on July 25, 2020, 08:01:09 PM
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on July 25, 2020, 07:59:03 PM
basically yes

Oh, why's that then?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phes on July 25, 2020, 08:08:58 PM
one of the factors that has propelled the threads on is the lengths Graham went - when he realised here wasn't getting any considerable traction - to be a complete asshole
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 08:10:38 PM
Well I'll apologise if I came across as an arse in this thread. Sorry.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 08:42:46 PM
QuoteQuote
Amazing that anyone talks to these cunts like they're human 🤣🤣🤣

...given the circumstances
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chedney Honks on July 25, 2020, 08:49:52 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 25, 2020, 07:18:23 PM
I will, although I wonder if I'll find anything as outright cunty as, for example:

🤣🤣🤣
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 25, 2020, 08:52:19 PM
think it's worth bearing in mind that a lot of the "open discussion" about trans issues comes down to a bunch of cisgender people debating whether trans folk know what's best for them, if they're even "really trans" or just up to sinister shenanigans, are they mentally ill, how can we make sure "normal" I mean "real" I mean fine fine "cis" then women feel safe around them etc. Like, don't forget that folks. You're basically debating whether a group of people are or are not maliciously trying to "co-opt" "womanhood", or "cheat" at women's sports, or "confuse children" or "push an agenda". A group of people, I might add, that get seriously shit on in society no matter how they comport themselves.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 25, 2020, 09:25:55 PM
Some of you fuckers should be delighted Barry Admin is in charge, because if I (or a number of other people, I'd wager) had been an admin of this board for 90 seconds, the ban hammer would have been used quickly and often.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 09:35:38 PM
Well said Poirot. I was very interested in Nadia Whittome's response to all this, here's her article:

Quote from: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trans-rights-equality-gender-recognition-politics-a9635021.htmlWe must not fetishise "debate" as though debate is itself an innocuous, neutral act. If someone wanted to initiate a debate about whether women are innately less intelligent than men or whether disabled people should be paid the same level of wages as non-disabled people, we would rightly be appalled at such a suggestion. The very act of debate in these cases is an effective rollback of assumed equality and a foot in the door for doubt and hatred.

And this led to a lot of screaming about the "woke left": https://www.rt.com/op-ed/495789-nadia-whittome-labour-debate-free-speech/

Also this from Piers Morgan: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1313812/piers-Morgan-twitter-good-morning-Britain-Nadia-whittome-twitter-daniel-hannan

It's pretty clear that Piers Morgan's idea of debate is simply to scream and shout louder than his opponent, so then what good is it, really?

Quote from: Nadia WhittomeEvery frontier in the struggle for equality and liberation has only ever been won by walking through fire.

Remind me again what happened with all those statutes recently; tell me how effective debating and petitioning was then.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:37:16 PM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 25, 2020, 08:52:19 PM
You're basically debating whether a group of people are or are not maliciously trying to "co-opt" "womanhood", or "cheat" at women's sports, or "confuse children" or "push an agenda". A group of people, I might add, that get seriously shit on in society no matter how they comport themselves.

What's wrong with debating the above though?

I think it was Madhair (above) who said that these answers can be found on the internet. But where?

Let me preface this by saying I fully understand Trans people are facing issues in society.
So... Without being a cunt/Glinner, let me ask questions.

Are children supposed to just accept it? If so, at what age? Is it something that should be normalised, or do we approach it as 'okay some people are having these issues'. If we normalise it, would this not cause more problems when young minds are easily influenced/confused by the world?
Most kids are struggling to understand the world as it is, so how does one go about explaining this stuff to them? How do I explain to young children that there's some kind of issue (or whatever word it is I'm looking for) that suggests some people are struggling with their gender?
At what point in their lives do we introduce this stuff without damaging their childhood and confusing them (and by proxy creating stigma)? Is it around the time we introduce sex education? Before? After?
Even introducing this stuff to a young child might cause issues when a pre-pubescent say feminine boy might think it's because they're a girl, instead of it just being pre-pubescent issues.

Regarding sports, even with hormone treatment to transition, would it be fair to say have a 'former man' compete equally with women in say the Olympics? I'm not going to use the word 'cheat' as I don't think it's cheating in the literal sense, but until we get mixed gender sports, would it be fair? Or should it be a different category?

I'm only asking these questions because you raised them.

Should all women just accept that a former man is now a woman, even though they weren't born biologically female. Is it just a case of 'shut up, accept it, if you don't you're a TERF or bigot?

I hope people can answer these without biting my head off. I'll say now there's probably no direct answer.

EDIT: I think I've asked this before, but what causes all this stuff? Is it a chemical thing? Issues with genes/genetics? Environmental? A result of something? Or just nature?


Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:38:31 PM
Quote from: Famous Mortimer on July 25, 2020, 09:25:55 PM
Some of you fuckers should be delighted Barry Admin is in charge, because if I (or a number of other people, I'd wager) had been an admin of this board for 90 seconds, the ban hammer would have been used quickly and often.

That's not something to really brag about though and I'm glad it's Barry too, rather than you. Banning people for asking questions or challenging things is a bit cunty.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 25, 2020, 09:43:19 PM
you really don't seem to realize how the 'I'm just asking questions' routine can be offensive.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 09:46:14 PM
Quote from: KrytonAre children supposed to just accept it? If so, at what age? Is it something that should be normalised, or do we approach it as 'okay some people are having these issues'. If we normalise it, would this not cause more problems when young minds are easily influenced/confused by the world?
Most kids are struggling to understand the world as it is, so how does one go about explaining this stuff to them? How do I explain to young children that there's some kind of issue (or whatever word it is I'm looking for) that suggests some people are struggling with their gender?
At what point in their lives do we introduce this stuff without damaging their childhood and confusing them (and by proxy creating stigma)? Is it around the time we introduce sex education? Before? After?
Even introducing this stuff to a young child might cause issues when a pre-pubescent say feminine boy might think it's because they're a girl, instead of it just being pre-pubescent issues.

Can I ask you all of the above questions, but with regards to gay people instead?

Are children just supposed to accept it?
At what point in their lives do we introduce this stuff without damaging their childhood and confusing them?

Etc.

What would your responses be?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:48:28 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 25, 2020, 09:43:19 PM
you really don't seem to realize how the 'I'm just asking questions' routine can be offensive.

You don't understand what the word 'routine' means.
So either you admit my issues which I raised above in the thread, in the sense that people get shit on for asking questions and thus can't progress forwards in understanding/debating this stuff. Or we stop the conversation and just lie in the shadow of ignorance and then wonder why people like Glinner exist and thus further the ignorance/discrimination.

Are you saying we can't ask questions? Or we need to frame them delicately? Or are we just expected to understand?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:49:53 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 09:46:14 PM
Can I ask you all of the above questions, but with regards to gay people instead?

Are children just supposed to accept it?
At what point in their lives do we introduce this stuff without damaging their childhood and confusing them?

Etc.

What would your responses be?

But it's two different issues isn't it? Homosexuality isn't gender dysphoria. Why compare them?

EDIT: Even now there's still many societies in the world that don't tolerate homosexualty and people are still persecuted, but you raise a fair point about 'when do we introduce this stuff' - it's been a big issue in some schools hasn't it? With the likes of religious types in Birmingham spurred on by the likes of Katie Hopkins to protests against this stuff being taught at school.
It seems some schools have no issues teaching this, and the age at which it is taught is varied, but other schools have encountered nasty protests by Islamic types or Christian types saying that this stuff should never be taught.

Hence my questions.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 09:57:13 PM
Are children just supposed to accept homosexuality though?




Do you see how there's a judgment inherent in that question?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 25, 2020, 09:57:20 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:48:28 PM
You don't understand what the word 'routine' means.
So either you admit my issues which I raised above in the thread, in the sense that people get shit on for asking questions and thus can't progress forwards in understanding/debating this stuff. Or we stop the conversation and just lie in the shadow of ignorance and then wonder why people like Glinner exist and thus further the ignorance/discrimination.

Are you saying we can't ask questions? Or we need to frame them delicately? Or are we just expected to understand?

"A sequence of actions regularly followed". seems accurate to me

why transgender people should take some of their time to explain to you that they aren't a threat to society?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:01:51 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 09:57:13 PM
Are children just supposed to accept homosexuality though?




Do you see how there's a judgment inherent in that question?
Yes I do. And I understand it's a difficult question.
I do, and for a long time children were not expected to accept it because adults persecuted people for being gay/lesbian as they went against social/religious norms. But slowly society has changed and education and cultural progression has trickled into place and slowly it's become commonplace. And slowly religious influences have trickled out of being the dominant influence.
Even in the last few decades there's been huge changes in how we perceive/accept this stuff.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 10:02:28 PM
Fuck your questions tbh. Plenty of pages with everything said ad nauseam in the glinner threads, so stop with your bad-faith bothering.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:07:56 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 25, 2020, 09:57:20 PM
"A sequence of actions regularly followed". seems accurate to me

why transgender people should take some of their time to explain to you that they aren't a threat to society?

I've never considered trans people to be a threat to society. I'm not that narrow minded, but I'm asking people with more knowledge/experience how is this stuff to be answered without questions? You've already assumed my questions are hostile, when they're anything but, they're just questions.

If Trans people are facing social stigma, then why should asking questions also be considered hostile? How does one dispel ignorance without knowledge or understanding? If someone is asking things but are immediately faced with a defensive wall, then surely it's slightly self defeating to say 'oh well people are just ignorant bigots for not understanding'.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 25, 2020, 10:10:06 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:37:16 PM
What's wrong with debating the above though?

Because it reduces the "debate" to obliging transpeople to explain why they're not like Jessica Yaniv, Glinner's Evil Changing Room Penismonsters or hypothetical sports cheats before we even acknowledge that their gender identity might have some validity.

It'd be like someone asking me: "Hey Butternut, do you just live as straight cis male to increase your promotion prospects? Or so you're big and strong and can rape women like Larry Murphy, a straight cis male, did?" It'd be dismissed as completely absurd in any other context.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:10:10 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 10:02:28 PM
Fuck your questions tbh. Plenty of pages with everything said ad nauseam in the glinner threads, so stop with your bad-faith bothering.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning)

And you've just proven what I've said above about how difficult it is to have a rational conversation without the insults.

To try and understand something, to dispel ignorance/stigma - you suddenly get labelled as a sealion (I didn't even know what term existed).

But yeah fuck my questions. I'll remind you about this in the next thread when you're moaning about people being ignorant.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on July 25, 2020, 10:10:35 PM
right that's exactly what happened to me, but facing that hostility I found myself going right, ok, I've fucked up here, let's look into how. did some research, went "ah i see, because these kinds of questions have been answered many thousands of times over and are often raised in an intellectually dishonest way so it's become easier to close them out than give the benefit of the doubt to someone who might be out to dehumanise and otherwise harm you"

at least that's how it seems to me?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:11:03 PM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on July 25, 2020, 10:10:06 PM
Because it reduces the "debate" to obliging transpeople to explain why they're not like Jessica Yaniv, Glinner's Evil Changing Room Penismonsters or hypothetical sports cheats before we even acknowledge that their gender identity might have some validity.

My questions weren't limited to just being answered by trans people. I said anyone with more knowledge/experience. This can include anyone , not just trans people.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 25, 2020, 10:12:08 PM
I'm a bit pushed for time right now, but one thing struck me.  Read what you wrote again, but imagine it applying to homosexuality:

Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:37:16 PMAre children supposed to just accept it? If so, at what age? Is it something that should be normalised, or do we approach it as 'okay some people are having these issues'. If we normalise it, would this not cause more problems when young minds are easily influenced/confused by the world?
Most kids are struggling to understand the world as it is, so how does one go about explaining this stuff to them? How do I explain to young children that there's some kind of issue (or whatever word it is I'm looking for) that suggests some people are struggling with their gender sexuality?
At what point in their lives do we introduce this stuff without damaging their childhood and confusing them (and by proxy creating stigma)? Is it around the time we introduce sex education? Before? After?
Even introducing this stuff to a young child might cause issues when a pre-pubescent say feminine boy might think it's because they're a girl gay, instead of it just being pre-pubescent issues.
::
::
EDIT: I think I've asked this before, but what causes all this stuff? Is it a chemical thing? Issues with genes/genetics? Environmental? A result of something? Or just nature?

The above is exactly the sort of thing the raving homophobes in (and out of) the Tory party uses to parrot about homosexuality back in the 80s, when trying to justify Clause 28.  "Won't anyone think of the children, it'll only confuse them."

And yet in subsequent years these issues have all been dealt with, and most children get a reasonably healthy upbringing regarding those matters.

I think that's why some/many of us react so badly to this sort of "asking questions", because even if it thinks it's coming from a good place, it has nasty echoes of what has gone before.




Oh dear, since I bothered to write this, it seems Barry's asked you the same thing and you've just dismissed it.

Hopefully the above might give you a little more insight though.


Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:49:53 PM
But it's two different issues isn't it? Homosexuality isn't gender dysphoria. Why compare them?

And of course they're not the same thing, but it's not like we're comparing apples and oranges here.  They are somewhat related issues, after all... and what I'm trying to point out is that all of the "won't somebody think of the children!" business and subsequent fixing of that, can apply to trans issues just as well as it did to gay issues 40 years ago.

Many gay people said that they always knew their orientation from childhood.  Why shouldn't trans people be able to say "I always knew I was different"?

FFS, even Enid Blyton wrote about it: George, from the Famous Five, the girl who kept wishing she'd been born a boy?  Cuts her hair short and dresses in boy's clothing?  Is mistaken for a boy, and sometimes asks to be called "Master" instead of "Miss"?

It's been around for a long time.

EDITED to correct "Clause 24" to "Clause 28".
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 10:12:18 PM
...

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on July 25, 2020, 10:12:48 PM
Enid BLIGHTO
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:15:41 PM
Quote from: madhair60 on July 25, 2020, 10:10:35 PM
right that's exactly what happened to me, but facing that hostility I found myself going right, ok, I've fucked up here, let's look into how. did some research, went "ah i see, because these kinds of questions have been answered many thousands of times over and are often raised in an intellectually dishonest way so it's become easier to close them out than give the benefit of the doubt to someone who might be out to dehumanise and otherwise harm you"

at least that's how it seems to me?

Thanks for the reply.

I personally don't think I have fucked up by asking. I'm not deliberately being intellectually dishonest or a sealion or whatever. I do understand what you mean that answers can be sought elsewhere, but then studying some academic paper or wikipedia or I dunno... anything, it loses that personal element. And essentially those sources will be from one particular field of thought, right?

I really hope people can see what I'm trying to ask here, but I feel like I'm digging my own grave.

By asking questions, I've already received a strawman response, a 'fuck your questions you sealion' and a response saying questions are offensive.
Edit: And an eat shit.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 25, 2020, 10:18:10 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 10:02:28 PMFuck your questions tbh. Plenty of pages with everything said ad nauseam in the glinner threads, so stop with your bad-faith bothering.

At the risk of sounding immensely patronising, I understand why you're upset, but...

...in this case, knowing him as a poster longer than you have, I don't think he's actually sealioning.  Just wanting to understand but being massively insensitive about it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 25, 2020, 10:19:41 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:15:41 PMBy asking questions, I've already received a strawman response...

I hope that's not the homosexuality parallel...


EDIT: Anyway, I gotta go.  I guess by the morning this is gonna be one helluva dumpster fire...
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on July 25, 2020, 10:21:04 PM
i'm not sure where you go from there because I'm no expert, but it seems like the ground that needs to be reached with trans rights is just "this is ok, this is a thing that exists" so trans people as mentioned are not batting away implications that they're all predators-in-waiting, you know? It just ends up being a neverending loop if on a broad scale the benefit of the doubt is not being given.

"questions for the trans community" or whatever strikes me as inherently problematic because it's grouping them all into this sort of shared thought like they can speak for one another, when the thrust is just the need to be accepted as a valid expression of a human being.

I mean obviously it depends on the questions to some extent but trans people don't owe anyone their time or energy fielding queries that are essentially about their right to live normal lives the way they choose to.

But I'm not trans. this is just how I'm seeing it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:21:17 PM
Quote from: Ambient Sheep on July 25, 2020, 10:12:08 PM

And of course they're not the same thing, but it's not like we're comparing apples and oranges here.  They are somewhat related issues, after all... and what I'm trying to point out is that all of the "won't somebody think of the children!" business and subsequent fixing of that, can apply to trans issues just as well as it did to gay issues 40 years ago.

Many gay people said that they always knew their orientation from childhood.  Why shouldn't trans people be able to say "I always knew I was different"?

FFS, even Enid Blyton wrote about it: George, from the Famous Five, the girl who kept wishing she'd been born a boy?  Cuts her hair short and dresses in boy's clothing?  Is mistaken for a boy, and sometimes asks to be called "Master" instead of "Miss"?

It's been around for a long time.

I don't doubt anything you've said. I'm far, far from conservative and I understand how gay people have been and still are persecuted. But it highlights what I previously asked about when/how this stuff should be introduced.

I asked the questions ONLY because Poirot mentioned them and basically what I'm getting at - why the taboo?

And you're assuming I'm somehow in doubt that children know how they feel from certain ages, I'm not culturally ignorant - my whole point is 'why are some questions met with a wall of ridicule/insults/assumptions and bias'.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 10:22:26 PM
Quote from: madhair60 on July 25, 2020, 10:10:35 PM
"ah i see, because these kinds of questions have been answered many thousands of times over and are often raised in an intellectually dishonest way so it's become easier to close them out than give the benefit of the doubt to someone who might be out to dehumanise and otherwise harm you"

at least that's how it seems to me?

Yes. And I don't think Kryton is asking in bad faith, unlike the other bloke who came in swinging his dick around and wilfully misconstruing my points to try and get a scrap going.

But people - trans people in particular - are pretty ground down with having to answer these same questions all the time, and Kryton, you're getting a bit of pushback here because your questions do seem to start from a position that transitioning is in some way fundamentally wrong, and something kids might need to be protected from. Which - as Sheepy has now made more explicit - is the exact same way that homophobia continued to proliferate.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 25, 2020, 10:29:46 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:11:03 PM
My questions weren't limited to just being answered by trans people. I said anyone with more knowledge/experience. This can include anyone , not just trans people.

Poirot was talking about the open debate around transgender issues and listed off problematic questions. You asked why they were problematic and why it was bad to talk about them. I explained why, as I see it. The trans debate in general will always have to involve trans people, or else it's meaningless. The fact that individual conversations about it can take place between cisgendered individuals doesn't change that.

And even if that wasn't the case, even if we compartmentalise it off and discuss it here in all our cis wonderousness, debating whether or not trans people are massive strawmen of the worst possible aspects of their group is completely ridiculous. It gains no traction with more 'mainstream'[nb]For want of a better phrase. I don't do English well when ingesting cider.[/nb] LGBT issue, so why does it here? Heterosexual people (well ones who aren't massive homophobes) don't discuss homosexuality by talking about John Wayne Gacy.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:31:11 PM
Quote from: madhair60 on July 25, 2020, 10:21:04 PM
i'm not sure where you go from there because I'm no expert, but it seems like the ground that needs to be reached with trans rights is just "this is ok, this is a thing that exists" so trans people as mentioned are not batting away implications that they're all predators-in-waiting, you know? It just ends up being a neverending loop if on a broad scale the benefit of the doubt is not being given.

"questions for the trans community" or whatever strikes me as inherently problematic because it's grouping them all into this sort of shared thought like they can speak for one another, when the thrust is just the need to be accepted as a valid expression of a human being.

I mean obviously it depends on the questions to some extent but trans people don't owe anyone their time or energy fielding queries that are essentially about their right to live normal lives the way they choose to.

But I'm not trans. this is just how I'm seeing it.

Another good reply.

I have never ever stated that Trans people are 'not ok ', it just seems to me (perhaps in my ignorance) that it's becoming more known/more accepted or being more and more commonplace in the media - but to continue with this, it's also becoming a tricky thing to discuss because people always jump on the defensive. I'm really, really not on the offensive here. I seek knowledge. I know that makes me sound like a cunt, but that's all I'm trying to do - What are the best ways to ask questions, what questions and how?

As for the community thing, a few of my mates are gay/lesbian and hate the 'community' aspect of it. Whilst others embrace the rainbow so to speak. Which is the right way to approach it? My answer is - basically whatever makes them feel happier/more comfortable.

But - that community tag probably only exists because of the persecuted minority thing, people grouping together to protect themselves and give themselves equal rights. But should every gay/bi/lesbian by default be lumped into one 'community' or stereotype? I personally don't think so.

And, from what I previously said - Maybe I'm not owed answers, but don't complain when people are ignorant. Either there's a comfortable, open middleground of discussion or there's name-calling, bigotry, ignorance and defensiveness.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on July 25, 2020, 10:31:58 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 10:22:26 PMBut people - trans people in particular - are pretty ground down with having to answer these same questions all the time, and Kryton, you're getting a bit of pushback here because your questions do seem to start from a position that transitioning is in some way fundamentally wrong, and something kids might need to be protected from. Which - as Sheepy has now made more explicit - is the exact same way that homophobia continued to proliferate.

Exactly.  This, Kryters, old chap.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 10:22:26 PM
Yes. And I don't think Kryton is asking in bad faith, unlike the other bloke who came in swinging his dick around and wilfully misconstruing my points to try and get a scrap going.

But people - trans people in particular - are pretty ground down with having to answer these same questions all the time, and Kryton, you're getting a bit of pushback here because your questions do seem to start from a position that transitioning is in some way fundamentally wrong, and something kids might need to be protected from. Which - as Sheepy has now made more explicit - is the exact same way that homophobia continued to proliferate.

Not at all, go and see at which point I replied from and then asked those questions. I didn't mention them until Poirot did. I extended on them. Possibly to prove a point, but also possibly to learn something by doing so.

And the kid thing was 'educating' not 'protecting'. I asked what is the right age to be introducing such topics in the curriculum, but I could have worded it better, I admit.

I guess with hindsight what people have said is right that Trans people are probably weary of answering these questions, but at the same time you can't honestly propose people shouldn't or can't ask questions without the fear of labels, insults etc. Or how else do we dispel ignorance on the subject.

Can anyone see what I'm trying to say? I'm really not being a cunt, a shit-eater or a sealion - I'm trying to say how difficult some topics are, without the automatic assumption that they're asked in bad faith, trolling or bigotry.

Anyway, I'm sorry for all the responses, questions and I promise I've not come into this thread to upset or belittle anyone - but it slightly proved what I said above about how certain topics are hard to debate without being insulted.

Peace. I'll give it a rest for a bit and reply later.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:41:08 PM
And well, sorry if I've been insensitive, it was not deliberate, more a result of what I'm trying to formulate or understand.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dex Sawash on July 25, 2020, 10:55:04 PM
I try to keep in mind how hard my not fully understanding group A must be for group A.
I can never fully understand most things outside my experience.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dex Sawash on July 25, 2020, 10:55:51 PM
Where group A= whatever.. not me
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on July 25, 2020, 10:56:31 PM
Quotetransitioning is in some way fundamentally wrong, and something kids might need to be protected from

Kryton can speak for himself, but I don't take his post as having said that.

Lots of quite mundane decisions and aspects of life are denied to children and only endowed upon them reaching adulthood. The line drawn has to be arbitrary because people develop at different speeds, but the underlying principle is that children are not generally prepared to deal with what they involve in a manner that is safe for them and others.

Given that dysphoria and even other aspects of cultural identity are the most loose while someone is physically and mentally changing all the time, it doesnt seem unreasonable to me that the individual should not be permitted to undergo profound and potentially irreversible changes until they have reached a similar age to when they can do lots of far more mundane things, unless there is a significant and almost unarguable justification.

.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on July 25, 2020, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 25, 2020, 09:43:19 PM
you really don't seem to realize how the 'I'm just asking questions' routine can be offensive.

Its a trick used by Eric Cartman in a South Park episode funnily enough.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 25, 2020, 11:18:18 PM
Quote from: Ambient Sheep on July 25, 2020, 10:18:10 PM
At the risk of sounding immensely patronising, I understand why you're upset, but...

...in this case, knowing him as a poster longer than you have, I don't think he's actually sealioning.  Just wanting to understand but being massively insensitive about it.

This is fair! I don't mean to be flippant, but I won't apologise.

Not sure if you can tell it's personal and yeah I find the liberal routine of 'debate' extraordinarily inhumane, arrogant, and offensive when they can simply listen to people actually affected.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 25, 2020, 11:26:06 PM
Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on July 25, 2020, 10:56:31 PM
Kryton can speak for himself, but I don't take his post as having said that.

Lots of quite mundane decisions and aspects of life are denied to children and only endowed upon them reaching adulthood. The line drawn has to be arbitrary because people develop at different speeds, but the underlying principle is that children are not generally prepared to deal with what they involve in a manner that is safe for them and others.

Given that dysphoria and even other aspects of cultural identity are the most loose while someone is physically and mentally changing all the time, it doesnt seem unreasonable to me that the individual should not be permitted to undergo profound and potentially irreversible changes until they have reached a similar age to when they can do lots of far more mundane things, unless there is a significant and almost unarguable justification.

"Are children supposed to just accept it" seems pretty unequivocally negative to me.

If it was just clumsily phrased, fair enough, but it really can't be stressed enough just how often trans people are being characterised as predators of late, so questions like that are definitely likely to result in some people telling you to eat shit.

Your post seems to have wandered off slightly; the issue here was about potentially "confusing children" by introducing them to the very fact that trans people exist, which again just others them, and turns trans people into a sort of scary, thorny issue that has to be tactfully deal with by concerned parents.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 11:37:00 PM
But you also missed the part in which I said life is confusing enough for kids, the burden of adult issues is a strongly contested thing - hence my references to sex education and what age these things need to be taught in the curriculum.

Some would argue that there's too much pressure on children these days as it is, with exams at younger ages, issues regarding when sex education (straight/gay) is taught in schools. Personally I don't think children NEED to be taught about these things until puberty, so yeah - should children (and parents) supposed to just accept it?  - are parents not allowed to debate the curriculum or specifically at what age these things are taught?

Some schools perhaps faith schools leave it until much later, some liberal schools teach it at a young age (which I personally think is wrong, surely children should be allowed some innocence?) -There's been a recent thread about the infantilisation of adults and culture recently, but I also think the opposite may apply (how exposure to sexual stuff like adverts on the internet, media, education is perhaps a negative thing). But I think that's perhaps something for a different thread.

But yeah I do think I handled that specific question clumsily. I could have worded it better, sometimes it takes a few replies before I can accurately process my thoughts.

I have already apologised for any potential insensitive comments, but I'm not going to back down from honest debate.

QuoteYour post seems to have wandered off slightly; the issue here was about potentially "confusing children" by introducing them to the very fact that trans people exist, which again just others them, and turns trans people into a sort of scary, thorny issue that has to be tactfully deal with by concerned parents.

To be honest my main issue is the subject of conversation and how it seems some subjects can stone-walled completely, yet the same people stone-walling are later complaining that people are ignorant. Which is it? I also mentioned how the same applies in subjects likes antisemitism in the labour party / discussions about Islamic terrorism. But again that'd be off-topic, but those sensitive subjects also seem to provoke hostility, even if we try and approach them methodically or logically rather than with any emotional angle (even though I've been guilty of that too!).

Not once did I ever imply anything about 'predatory' trans people though. Not once, but what I did try and talk about was confusing social issues and how that is slowly trickled into learning, understanding and eventual acceptance. But again, what age and how?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 12:01:19 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 10:10:10 PM
And you've just proven what I've said above about how difficult it is to have a rational conversation without the insults.

To try and understand something, to dispel ignorance/stigma - you suddenly get labelled as a sealion (I didn't even know what term existed).

But yeah fuck my questions. I'll remind you about this in the next thread when you're moaning about people being ignorant.
I have an idea, let's all sit around and debate why Kryton's such an asshole. Is it because he's a straight dude and we all know what they're like, or did his parents raise him all fuckways? Nature or nurture? How can we be sure he hasn't bashed a black man? Or won't bash one in the future? He's certainly fond of moaning about how hard done by he is when all he does is accuse Muslims of being terrorists and tells trans folk to fuck off - sounds like a typical conservative bigot to me. I mean he says he isn't one but they all say that don't they. Let's endlessly debate his very humanity just to make sure.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:02:22 AM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 12:01:19 AM
I have an idea, let's all sit around and debate why Kryton's such an asshole. Is it because he's a straight dude and we all know what they're like, or did his parents raise him all fuckways? Nature or nurture? How can we be sure he hasn't bashed a black man? Or won't bash one in the future? He's certainly fond of moaning about how hard done by he is when all he does is accuse Muslims of being terrorists and tells trans folk to fuck off - sounds like a typical conservative bigot to me. I mean he says he isn't one but they all say that don't they. Let's endlessly debate his very humanity just to make sure.

Please do. But start a new thread so we don't derail this one. Ta. x

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 12:03:45 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:02:22 AM
Please do. But start a new thread so we don't derail this one. Ta. x
How about you sit and think about what a patronising little fuck you were to the only trans poster in this thread?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:08:22 AM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 12:03:45 AM
How about you sit and think about what a patronising little fuck you were to the only trans poster in this thread?

Making a lot of assumptions here. And arguably proving me right about how toxic people like yourself make normal conversation difficult. So thanks for that at least.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 12:13:46 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:08:22 AM
Making a lot of assumptions here. And arguably proving me right about how toxic people like yourself make normal conversation difficult. So thanks for that at least.
yeah dude I'm the toxic one, not the asshole going "I'm only asking a simple question about whether trans people are even human beings and whether we should confuse the poor children by explaining to them what being trans means, I want an honest debate about such things"

typical conservative, wailing about how you can't even ask a simple question any more while ignoring how shitty the question is and shitty it is to sit around debating someone else's fucking humanity
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:19:47 AM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 12:13:46 AM
yeah dude I'm the toxic one, not the asshole going "I'm only asking a simple question about whether trans people are even human beings

Can you quote that please?

And yes, every single interaction with you has been a very negative experience. You seem incapable of basic discourse without throwing your childish insults and negativity around the place. You make absurd lies up, misquote me and seem to twist what I'm saying to suit your toxic narrative. I'm not sure why, you probably have your own reasons.

Did you even read anything I posted? I'm not going to repeat myself for you though, I'm sure you can fire up one of your several synapses to make your fingers scroll up a page.

Quotetypical conservative, wailing about how you can't even ask a simple question any more while ignoring how shitty the question is and shitty it is to sit around debating someone else's fucking humanity
Ooof calling me a Tory. Now that's cruel. If it was from someone I gave even a semblance of a fuck about, I'd say it would hurt me. But thankfully you're not one of those people.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 12:03:45 AM
How about you sit and think about what a patronising little fuck you were to the only trans poster in this thread?

And for the record I've had a nice conversation with one of the trans posters in this thread in PMs, and we've both agreed that we've maybe taken things the wrong way and I apologised for any insensitivity- so fuck off with your anti-trans accusatory bullshit and your horrible, snidy little digs. You don't know the first thing about me and if you did, you wouldn't be saying this stuff.

I've also apologised for perhaps a clumsily worded question, but you've leaped on that and totally, totally ignored everything else I asked.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:41:05 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:32:18 AM
we've both agreed that we've maybe taken things the wrong way

I didn't say that.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:44:45 AM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:41:05 AM
I didn't say that.

I took your 'I didn't mean to be salty' and my 'I apologise for any insensitivity it wasn't intentional' as that.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: DrGreggles on July 26, 2020, 12:45:00 AM
Ah, so this is where the transphobes have been hiding.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 26, 2020, 12:45:04 AM
Well Krytie, I tried to explain why having debate on trans issues that starts with JAQing off over transwomen in sports and the like is offensively tone deaf and nonsensical when you compare it to discussions of most gender/sexuality issues, which usually do not involve asking questions about the worst possible people that could exist within the confines of whatever gender or sexual orientation is being discussed.

And I did it without using any mean words.

But it didn't register and you subsequently defended your JAQing off as not being hostile, even though it comes across as such, albeit possibly unintentionally.

You're getting very asspained with Poirot for mislabelling your political stance and saying she wouldn't say that if she knew you. How about if someone was asking[nb]Or discussing you with a third person, since we can JAQ off about trans issues without involving trans people[/nb] you are you just what you are in order to steal feminism from women or something? How would you feel then? You have to see how that's a problematic approach to this issue.

Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:32:18 AM
I've also apologised for perhaps a clumsily worded question, but you've leaped on that and totally, totally ignored everything else I asked.

You seem to apologise a lot. Maybe you should think about what you're saying before you hit the 'post' button a little bit more instead of apologising for it later? Just an idea.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 26, 2020, 12:45:13 AM
I'm on mobile so CBA with mucking about with quotes, but to dig deeper a bit - Kryton, what exactly is it you fear about children being taught about trans people existing (I assume this is what you mean)? You've asked a lot about whether children should be made aware about it, but I'm more interested in why that's a problem. I mean, like a lot of people, I grew up in the Section 28-governed '90s and 00s, but even I was aware of trans people when I was 9, thanks to Dana International and Hayley off Corrie. I remember when I asked my Granny about the latter, she gave me a very nice explanation about what a transsexual was (as was the parlance in 1998). I don't think it damaged me or my generation (although I am trans, I don't think I was converted by an ITV soap).

For the record, if a Twitter randomer was asking similar questions, I'd just block them, but on there it's a bad-faith dafty 99.9% of the time (and, in my case, usually a terfy scotnat). But, you know, we're just one big cunty family here, so...
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:46:52 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:44:45 AM
I took your 'I didn't mean to be salty' and my 'I apologise for any insensitivity it wasn't intentional' as that.

It's means more 'I don't like to having to be pissed off' than I'm sorry for my tone.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:54:25 AM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on July 26, 2020, 12:45:04 AM
Well Krytie, I tried to explain why having debate on trans issues that starts with JAQing off over transwomen in sports and the like is offensively tone deaf and nonsensical when you compare it to discussions of most gender/sexuality issues, which do not start with asking questions about the worst possible people that could exist within the confines of whatever gender or sexual orientation is being discussed.

It was an extension of something Poirot said earlier, which got muddled up with the issues I have with feeling like any kind of debate is met with hostility. And if I didn't reply earlier, it's probably because I was replying to a few other people.


Quote
You seem to apologise a lot. Maybe you should think about what you're saying before you hit the 'post' button a little bit more instead of apologising for it later? Just an idea.

And people seem to deliberately misquote me a lot and insult me, but they never apologise. But I dare say I can't say this before someone calls me a martyr again ffs.

QuoteKryton, what exactly is it you fear about children being taught about trans people existing (I assume this is what you mean)?

No that's not what I meant. Much in the same way Poirot accused me of saying trans people aren't human or whatever.

I meant 'when should children be taught about these issues, at what age should they (and by proxy) their parents have to accept these issues are being introduced in the curriculum' - I expanded on that by saying my concerns are that children are being taught about gender/sexuality/sex education at lower ages. I even expanded on that by saying adults culture is becoming infantilised and the opposite could be applied to children in which they're being exposed to stuff at younger ages, the burden of adult issues (however I KNOW children are experiencing gender dysphoria, so please don't misquote me on that either).

QuoteAh, so this is where the transphobes have been hiding.

Fucking hell.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 26, 2020, 12:57:26 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:54:25 AM
No that's not what I meant. Much in the same way Poirot accused me of saying trans people aren't human or whatever.

I meant 'when should children be taught about these issues, at what age should they (and by proxy) their parents have to accept these issues are being introduced in the curriculum' - I expanded on that by saying my concerns are that children are being taught about gender/sexuality/sex education at lower ages. I even expanded on that by saying adults culture is becoming infantilised and the opposite could be applied to children in which they're being exposed to stuff at younger ages, the burden of adult issues (however I KNOW children are experiencing gender dysphoria, so please don't misquote me on that either).

Fucking hell.


As my German teacher used to say, not meaning to be cheeky or owt, but what do you mean? What are "these issues"? I'm genuinely not sure what specifically it is that you fear.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 01:02:15 AM
Quote from: canadagoose on July 26, 2020, 12:57:26 AM
As my German teacher used to say, not meaning to be cheeky or owt, but what do you mean? What are "these issues"? I'm genuinely not sure what specifically it is that you fear.

When did I say I fear anything? That would suggest I'm trans-phobic. I'm not the ones protesting outside schools.

As for the issues. The issues that people are facing on a day to day basis. The issues highlighted by many other members on here twitter, reddit etc...

Basically, if we're to introduce acceptance into society, like we've progressively done with how gay people have been 'accepted (I hate that term, but there you go), or quelling racism, how do we or more specifically, at what age do children need to learn about this stuff?

There's loads of other points I mentioned, but I'm getting bogged down in tons of replies now.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 01:08:45 AM
One thing that does strike me as hypocritical in this whole thing is - Many, many people are wanting openness and less ignorance on the subject, but as soon as you ask questions, and I hate to repeat myself - people then duck back behind the wall and get defensive.

Is this open for discussion? If so, let people talk without stone-walling or insulting people. If not, I'll shut up. But again, you'll be hypocrites if in the next Glinner thread you start harping on about people not taking trans-people seriously, or calling anyone with less knowledge a bigot, when this on-topic thread devolves into me being made to look like a cunt, just for trying to engage.

Maybe you don't like what I'm asking or as some have said you might be tired of the questions and I should read resources elsewhere? Who is to say I haven't? But like I said earlier, it's one thing to read articles and papers, but it's not the same as engaging with people is it?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 26, 2020, 01:09:49 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 01:02:15 AM
When did I say I fear anything? That would suggest I'm trans-phobic. I'm not the ones protesting outside schools.

As for the issues. The issues that people are facing on a day to day basis. The issues highlighted by many other members on here twitter, reddit etc...

Basically, if we're to introduce acceptance into society, like we've progressively done with how gay people have been 'accepted (I hate that term, but there you go), or quelling racism, how do we or more specifically, at what age do children need to learn about this stuff?

There's loads of other points I mentioned, but I'm getting bogged down in tons of replies now.
I say "fear" because if you mentioned how children shouldn't be taught about something, there must be a reason for that. And I'm sorry, but I still don't know what issues you mean! Can you please elaborate, this is like drawing your back teeth (as my Granny also used to say). I honestly have read the other posts and I still can't pin down what exactly it is you're on about. You can't complain about being censored if you won't even say what it is you actually mean! And I can't argue if I don't know, because it'll be at cross-purposes. Like, do you mean the concept of name changes? That's one example.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 26, 2020, 01:11:16 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:54:25 AM
It was an extension of something Poirot said earlier, which got muddled up with the issues I have with feeling like any kind of debate is met with hostility. And if I didn't reply earlier, it's probably because I was replying to a few other people.

Yeah, it's strange that something you directly quote to start your line of enquiry off gets muddled up with what you're saying. Very odd, I cannot imagine how that happened. But at this stage, I could not be bothered going over it again since you seem to have largely pivoted onto the children's education issue anyway.

If you're interested it should be part of sex-ed and dealt with at the same time homosexuality is, imo (which was about 11-12 for me). I'm not sure there's any point in going earlier than that cos I don't think they'd really understand what you're talking about. Children who may be trans before that can see an appropriate medical professional, who in all likelihood will not force feed them puberty blockers immediately on the first consultation. I don't have a good answer for peers/friends of a child who transitions before that stuff is dealt with. Obviously their parents would have to explain it to them and they'll either get it or not, or care that their friend is 'different' now or not.

Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:54:25 AM
And people seem to deliberately misquote me a lot and insult me, but they never apologise. But I dare say I can't say this before someone calls me a martyr again ffs.

People being mean to you is irrelevant to stuff you say that you apologise for. You're obviously coming out with stuff that you regret later. Not me or anyone else. You. So... might be worth thinking a little more.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 01:15:55 AM
I'll reply tomorrow. I'm tired and I'm losing track of who I'm replying to.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 01:55:16 AM
'Kay Kryton, here's where the problem is:
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 25, 2020, 08:52:19 PM
think it's worth bearing in mind that a lot of the "open discussion" about trans issues comes down to a bunch of cisgender people debating whether trans folk know what's best for them, if they're even "really trans" or just up to sinister shenanigans, are they mentally ill, how can we make sure "normal" I mean "real" I mean fine fine "cis" then women feel safe around them etc. Like, don't forget that folks. You're basically debating whether a group of people are or are not maliciously trying to "co-opt" "womanhood", or "cheat" at women's sports, or "confuse children" or "push an agenda". A group of people, I might add, that get seriously shit on in society no matter how they comport themselves.

Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:37:16 PM
What's wrong with debating the above [bolded portion] though?

Here's what's wrong with debating whether trans women are "maliciously trying to 'co-opt' 'womanhood', or 'cheat' at women's sports, or 'confuse children' or 'push an agenda'." To debate such a thing, one side has to assume that's what they're doing. Do you see how all those things are bad and are what transphobes believe?

Then you start just asking questions:

QuoteAre children supposed to just accept it?
implying that perhaps they shouldn't (the answer is "yes they should")

Quotewould it be fair to say have a 'former man' compete equally with women in say the Olympics?
scare quotes in there, most lovely
(the answer is, in my opinion, more actual studies are required to determine the effect of feminising hormones on athletic performance, both in trans women who played the same sport pre- and post-transition and in trans women who played no sports pre-transition, along with a bunch of soft surveys of trans women to find out how many of them actually continue to take part in a sport post-transition, plus frequent measuring of testosterone levels in as many cis women athletes as possible to build up an accurate range of testosterone levels in cis women)

QuoteShould all women just accept that a former man is now a woman, even though they weren't born biologically female.
'Just accept' here again implies that they shouldn't (the answer is "yes, duh, why are you even asking")

Look, I was being facetious with my first reply to you because I really wanted you to stop and think about what you were doing by "just asking questions" and "debating". The only valid question you have concerned trans women in sports and my personal short answer is as I stated above. Even then, even though you may not have meant it, even though you didn't specifically say "cheat", you still managed to frame it in terms of whether it's fair to cis women to let trans women compete as women. Because these debates require giving equal weight to the side that assumes the worst of trans women, framing them as weird perverts or mental cases instead of normal human beings who just want to lead normal lives, except in their case, for whatever reason, their gender doesn't correspond to their biological sex. And it's kind of fucking sick that we cis folk get to sit here debating these "issues" as if they have any impact on any of us, and to get offended and shush trans folk when they quite rightly get pissed off at what we're doing.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 02:35:42 AM
I'm about to go to bed but I'll hold my hands up and accept that I could have phrased my earlier posts better and with more sensitivity and with hindsight it probably came across a bit raw.

But I do take umbrage to the idea that asking questions automatically makes one a hardlined Tory with an anti-Trans agenda. It's a terrible counter-argument to throw when someone really is just trying to engage (even if I presented things in the wrong manner).

Using the word 'accept' was perhaps wrong or misjudged. But I did expand on what I meant with the education in school and how I think that children are perhaps being exposed to things a little bit too early. Whether this be sex education, or having treatment at such at a young age. It's clearly a difficult issue for everyone involved and I'm sorry but not everyone will agree with you in how this is supposed to be the new normal (for want of a better word). I personally couldn't give a fuck, but that doesn't make me any less curious as to what causes these issues in the first place.

I'll leave this post now with a possibly difficult question - but has anyone figured out the 'why' - As in why is gender dysphoria a thing?.
I know people have struggled with their identities for decades, perhaps centuries, but is it becoming more commonplace because of exposure in the media and people are braver in coming out because there's more support? Is it a biological/genetic thing? Are more people coming out so to speak, because of the slow dissolution of social stigma? Is it because more people exist now, so by the sheer weight of numbers, there's more chance of people having these identity issues? But what's the cause? What causes someone to hate their own body and feel like they're of the opposite gender?

Also (and this is another possibly contentious question) - Should children under puberty age really be taking anti-puberty drugs, are they so sure that is the right answer? To artificially interfere with what is naturally a confusing time in their lives? I've read that there's a lot of cases of regret when some people get older.

Again though, sorry for any offence caused or implied. I admit I've been perhaps rash with how I've engaged here. But it really doesn't help when being met with toxic replies, assumptions and insults - even if perhaps I've rubbed people the wrong way. I guess I should put more thought into my posts as someone mentioned, sometimes I get tunnel vision and fixated on a subject and occasionally forget that I may not explain myself very well.

Goodnight.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 26, 2020, 02:39:39 AM
I wanted to post this earlier, as people have danced around the concept, and now that Butternut has explicitly mentioned "JAQing off" I feel it should definitely be linked: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 02:41:54 AM
Quote from: Barry Admin on July 26, 2020, 02:39:39 AM
I wanted to post this earlier, as people have danced around the concept, and now that Butternut has explicitly mentioned "JAQing off" I feel it should definitely be linked: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions

I'm honestly not up to date with all these internet terms like sealioning, Jaq'ing etc. I can't help but feel sometimes they're counter-productive or a way of stifling honest debate.

From that link:

QuoteIt should be noted that accusing one's opponent of "just asking questions" is a common derailment tactic and a way of poisoning the well. Asking questions in and of itself is not invalid.

The subjective nature of this charge, and its consequent ripeness for abuse, means that deploying it can be a very inflammatory move. One side may put forward the accusation that the other side is cynically "just asking questions" and believe that they are acting in good faith, and the other side may equally strongly believe that they were asking genuine questions in good faith and the first person is the one acting in bad faith.

Yeah ^.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Paul Calf on July 26, 2020, 02:42:25 AM
That transphobic opinions often centre around 'How do we explain this to children?' which is dishonest because this is entirely a result of conditioning, and is a problem for adults that in a classic 'won't someone think of the children' move, they've projected onto children to save their face.

If you explain to a 5-year-old '(S)he was born as a woman / man but feels like they're a man / woman,' I'm betting that most kids would go 'Right. Cigs'.

If you're claiming to be worried because it might harm kids, you need to stop lying to yourself and work out why it is that you're uncomfortable with it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 02:45:43 AM
Quote from: Paul Calf on July 26, 2020, 02:42:25 AM
That transphobic opinions often centre around 'How do we explain this to children?' which is dishonest because this is entirely a result of conditioning, and is a problem for adults that in a classic 'won't someone think of the children' move, they've projected onto children to save their face.
If you explain to a 5-year-old '(S)he was born as a woman / man but feels like they're a man / woman,' I'm betting that most kids would go 'Right. Cigs'.

I'll agree to disagree there and I'll go back to what I was saying about putting the burdens of adult issues onto children isn't necessarily healthy, nor should every parent accept that certain things need to be taught before kids are ready.

You're right that some conservative types do hide behind that - but again that could also be a way of quelling debate too.

--

Anyway, like I said earlier - I've not intentionally meant to Jaq off, or eat shit or sealion or whatever.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 02:52:03 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 02:35:42 AM
I'll leave this post now with a possibly difficult question - but has anyone figured out the 'why' - As in why is gender dysphoria a thing?.
Why is gayness a thing? What causes someone to be attracted to the same sex with no hope of procreating natura WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Flouncer on July 26, 2020, 02:53:00 AM
I'd just like to jump in and defend Kryton here by saying that I, for one, believe him when he says he isn't a coprophage.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 02:56:26 AM
Dunno why the straights are always forcing their culture and sexuality on children. Why concern them with adult issues?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: the hum on July 26, 2020, 02:58:03 AM
Just dropping in to say I thought the sealion thing was potentially a myth, but only because I'd never seen it in action before. But check out Argos Sam Harris here.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Flouncer on July 26, 2020, 03:05:18 AM
Quote from: the hum on July 26, 2020, 02:58:03 AM
Just dropping in to say I thought the sealion thing was potentially a myth...

If you want a good example of that just check out Autopsy Turvey's posts. He does it all the fucking time.

For what it's worth I don't think that's what Kryton is doing here... I think he's just kind of blundered into a very highly charged debate and (as he's admitted) hasn't chosen his words very wisely. I want to write a proper, well thought out post in this thread and I might do later, if I can summon some brainpower and break through the fatigue.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 03:05:31 AM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 02:52:03 AM
Why is gayness a thing? What causes someone to be attracted to the same sex with no hope of procreating natura WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER.

Well if it doesn't matter, then why is everyone getting upset at questions, if it's a non-issue? I think you're deliberately skirting some of my points here. Either Trans people DO struggle at a young age (and thus questions should be asked and answers might be found) or they're not and you've been hostile for absolutely no reason and owe me an apology?
Which is it?

I personally think it does matter if more and more children/people are finding themselves suffering mental anguish because their bodies don't line up with how their minds perceive themselves to be. How can you not see this?

And why can't CIS people debate this stuff? Can white people not debate BLM issues? Can Muslims not talk about problems with Hinduism? Is debate to kept in a box with only the people of the same views?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sin Agog on July 26, 2020, 03:10:34 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 02:45:43 AM
I'll agree to disagree there and I'll go back to what I was saying about putting the burdens of adult issues onto children isn't necessarily healthy, nor should every parent accept that certain things need to be taught before kids are ready.

You're right that some conservative types do hide behind that - but again that could also be a way of quelling debate too.

--

Anyway, like I said earlier - I've not intentionally meant to Jaq off, or eat shit or sealion or whatever.

Disagree.  Broach the idea while they're young and everything's novel so that it's normalised by the time they start to lock down their perceptions of the world.  I've literally done this with my half-sister, mostly to recoil against some of her mum's worshipping at the holy temple of the great goddess Normalia, and aside from a few questions she was cool with it, as most kids will be.  Prejudice affects the rigid, not the malleable.  Why would gender dysphoria be any weirder to a child than the concept of spending eight hours a day plus overtime in an office?  I tend to believe that people change generationally, rather than individually.  Waiting too late could potentially result in society doing the same.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:40:49 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 02:35:42 AM
but has anyone figured out the 'why' - As in why is gender dysphoria a thing?

This Kryton is a very philosophical question.  Why is ANY human behaviour a thing?  You touch on some sociological and biological points after your question.  I will stick to the biology of the individual here.

A quick quote from the excellent Robert Sapolsky's 'Behave', p215, footnote,

Quote"Remarkably, studies have examined the brains of transgender individuals, concentrating on brain regions that, on the average, differ in size between men and women.  And consistently, regardless of the desired direction of the sex change and, in fact, regardless of whether the person had undergone a sex change yet, the dimorphic brain regions in transgender individuals resembled the sex of the person they had always felt themselves to be, not their "actual" sex.  It's more like they got stuck with the bodies of a different sex from who they actually are"

Sapolsky is a very inspirational speaker and makes the science very accessible. 

A consideration of neurology and behaviour, (from a physicalists point of view) suggests that what mentally makes us who we are, our memories, skills, aptitudes preferences etc. is defined by the physical structures of our brains.  Brains obviously live in bodies, and are influenced by glandular systems, such as sex hormones and a myriad other things, but your personality and behaviours are governed by the physical structures and interconnectivity of the neurones.  Developing brains, in the foetal stage are influenced by things such as testosterone and other chemicals, some being environmental pollutants which mimic sex hormones; which cause differences in structural development in the brain.

When you make a new memory, have a thought, learn a language, all these things cause changes in neuronal wiring to greater or lesser degrees. 

That behaviour is encapsulated in brain structure is apparent, when for example, somebody gets a brain tumour and it presses on, perhaps the areas of the brain associated with music, and they begin to have a wildly different relationship to music.  Or other less desirable behaviours may emerge, then recede if the tumour is removed.

The neurologist would essentially say that all behaviour has it's root in some brain structure or another, it is tumours all the way down, as it were.  (Tumours here being a metaphor for a structural facet leading to a behaviour being expressed).

(This consideration of physical neurology results in some interesting considerations of free will...the mere concept of boiling the human condition down to physically governed phenomena is highly offensive to some people, in much the same way as the fossil record is to Creationists)

Our development is a mixture of nature and nurture, our genes and experience, so people exist on a spectrum.

The GC binary gender people reject this because they choose to stick to a very out of date understanding of biology, and reject the modern evidence as it does not suit their arguments.  There DO appear to be observable features of the brain which are associated with the persons self identified gender.  These do NOT have to correlate with the genitals of the person.  Hence these people feel they are in the wrongly gendered body. 

If you want, sometime tomorrow, I will try and dig up the references and you can see for yourself.

Why each persons brain develops differently is likely due to our diverse genetics and nurture.  I would guess that most human traits would exhibit on a bell curve.  So many things tend to.  Bodies are diverse and so are brains.

Brains have characteristics, some are good at visualisation of scenes, some can't do this at all.  Some are good at empathy, some not.  The point is there is variation and for some people that variation results in gender identity being different from that of their bodies genitals.

Oliver Sacks wrote some interesting books about behaviour and Robert Sapolsky really gets into this stuff in his book, 'Behave'.  He also has a set of 25 lectures on youtube from his 'Stanford Human Behavioral Biology' course

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL150326949691B199 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL150326949691B199)

What the likes of Glinner make of the science, I really don't know.  My feeling is that it is all a bit beyond their interest and background level of knowledge in the areas of biochemistry, biology, neurology etc.. so they just arrogantly dismiss it as of no importance.  A Dunning Kruger response.

You don't need to know all the background supporting science to see that there are some very good, hard science studies which support the case for transwomen being real women.

The GC types just come across as rather closed minded and ill educated to me and more interested in being authoritarian and playing with words than saying anything of interest.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 03:46:39 AM
Brilliant post Tao and thanks for the insight.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 05:58:17 AM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:40:49 AM
You don't need to know all the background supporting science to see that there are some very good, hard science studies which support the case for transwomen being real women.
QuoteThere DO appear to be observable features of the brain which are associated with the persons self identified gender.

This is an extremely stupid and very dangerous route to go down. It ultimately points towards denying people access to support with all sorts of issues - not just gender dysphoria - on the basis of gross neurology.

(It also happens to confuse population-level differences in averages with a sensitive and specific individual-level marker, but focusing on that fuckwittery is ignoring the fundamental hateful bullshit at the heart of this sort-of-thinking.)

QuoteA consideration of neurology and behaviour, (from a physicalists point of view) suggests that what mentally makes us who we are, our memories, skills, aptitudes preferences etc. is defined by the physical structures of our brains.
QuoteThe neurologist would essentially say that all behaviour has it's root in some brain structure or another, it is tumours all the way down, as it were.  (Tumours here being a metaphor for a structural facet leading to a behaviour being expressed).
This sort of stuff is worse than meaningless, confusing a broad belief with physicalism with some sort of aggressively obtuse type identity theory (as much as it's possible to extract anything from this other than just gesturing at brains).

QuoteWhy each persons brain develops differently is likely due to our diverse genetics and nurture.
Well that clears that up.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 06:03:38 AM
Anyone who thinks that claims about having this or that mental state are justified or not on the basis of neurological inspection needs to consider the consequences of this.

(A slightly different question might be whether or not gender identity issues are heterogeneous - whether we might be able to discern differences between such issues on the basis of neurological features, and make better informed guesses about how to support that person well. But that's quite different to arguing that someone's feelings and beliefs actually exist or not on the basis of a CT scan.)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 06:16:56 AM
"You're not homosexual, we've had a look at your anterior hypothalamus and the cell count is well within the heterosexual range."

"Thanks to the fractional anisotropy, we've determined beyond reasonable doubt that you're not a neuro-woman, just a mega-pervert."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 07:01:56 AM
Looking forward to the day when they take my meds away and charge me with a decade of fraud on the basis of an MRI.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 07:46:49 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 03:05:31 AM
Well if it doesn't matter, then why is everyone getting upset at questions, if it's a non-issue? I think you're deliberately skirting some of my points here. Either Trans people DO struggle at a young age (and thus questions should be asked and answers might be found) or they're not and you've been hostile for absolutely no reason and owe me an apology?
Which is it?
Oh my fucking God.

"Prove to me that transness is real, then I'll stop debating trans folks' humanity. I suspect they're all fakes, that's why everyone's getting so upset at my Perfectly Reasonable Concerns about confusing children with 'adult stuff'."

QuoteI personally think it does matter if more and more children/people are finding themselves suffering mental anguish because their bodies don't line up with how their minds perceive themselves to be. How can you not see this?
"I want to cure the terrible disease of transness."

QuoteAnd why can't CIS people debate this stuff? Can white people not debate BLM issues? Can Muslims not talk about problems with Hinduism? Is debate to kept in a box with only the people of the same views?
"I just love holding forth about minorities and whether they're absolute cunts or not. For my next topic, has feminism gone too far? Isn't abortion just baby-murder?"
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: solidified gruel merchant on July 26, 2020, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: Flouncer on July 26, 2020, 03:05:18 AM
If you want a good example of that just check out Autopsy Turvey's posts. He does it all the fucking time.

For what it's worth I don't think that's what Kryton is doing here... I think he's just kind of blundered into a very highly charged debate and (as he's admitted) hasn't chosen his words very wisely. I want to write a proper, well thought out post in this thread and I might do later, if I can summon some brainpower and break through the fatigue.

This reminds me of 'hangthebuggers' and how he used to tie himself in knots about the muslims.
It would always start with him making some pretty dodgy claims, then when the backlash came he would throw up his hands and claim he was just here to learn, apologies apologies, until the next Muslim thread came along and it would start all over again.
I got the feeling it was always more about him getting attention than any genuine desire to learn about the Muslims..
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 08:53:04 AM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 07:46:49 AM
"I want to cure the terrible disease of transness."
I don't think that's entirely fair. Wondering at the causes of distress seems an entirely humane thing to do, even if it shouldn't serve as a way of locating that distress wholly in the individual and as a distraction from ensuring that we provide tolerance and support here-and-now (being the surest immediate way to reduce such distress).

It seems important to note that there's a disconnect here with the analogy to homosexuality in the relationship to medical support and that the culture war over self-ID has served as a distraction from how terrible the access to medical support is for trans people. (Noting that a better society might make the relationship to medical support less urgent for more trans people. Maybe.)

Demedicalisation altogether is one way out of this, but is liable to put most trans people in a practically far worse situation unless they're extremely rich.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: BeardFaceMan on July 26, 2020, 09:35:52 AM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 03:05:31 AM
And why can't CIS people debate this stuff?

Because it's not an issue they fully understand and their part in the conversation is to listen, not talk? That CIS people debating this stuff is how we got into this situation that needs to be fixed in the first place? Asking questions is fine, it's how we learn, but that's not what you're doing. As you say, you want a debate. Which means you already have an opinion on these issues and you're putting forth that opinion and then getting pissy when people are disagreeing with you. You're not asking questions, you're making statements and trying to frame it as "you can't even ask questions!", whether you intend it or not it comes across as very dishonest. If you have a genuine question about trans issues I'm sure there are lots of trans people who would be willing to answer it politely, understanding is what we all want, so try asking a polite question instead of stating an opinion and then demanding to know why you're wrong.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 10:13:35 AM
Quote from: BeardFaceMan on July 26, 2020, 09:35:52 AM
Because it's not an issue they fully understand and their part in the conversation is to listen, not talk?

Honestly, I have no idea what the rest of the post says (i'd probably agree with it) but generally as a rule when people say things like this then there is no point.

These deranged internet "truisms" really need to get in the bin.

See also:

Offence is for the victim to decide, only "x" ethinic minority can comment.

The far right btw have completely co-opted all of this silly approach to logic and it is now being used to dismantle much of the things the left has created and fought for.

By all means ask someone to listen, that is the whole point of conversations they are about mutual engagement, there are roles but they are by consent, not by demands and certainly not directed purely on someones characteristics.

Your part in the conversation is to shut up and listen because you are not "x" is an abysmal approach to genuinely seeking discussion.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: BeardFaceMan on July 26, 2020, 10:18:18 AM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 10:13:35 AM
Your part in the conversation is to shut up and listen because you are not "x" is an abysmal approach to genuinely seeking discussion.

He's not seeking discussion, he's seeking debate, I would say there's a difference. He's not just asking questions as a matter of curiosity, he's making statements and giving opinions and then asking to be proved wrong, which comes across as aggressive. Of course CIS people should be part of the discussion but it's generally their role to listen, not inform, as trans issues are going to be something outside of their realms of experience and knowledge.

You don't think a trans persons views hold more weight than a CIS person's views when it comes to trans issues/rights? You don't think a black person might have a better understanding of systemic racism than a white person? That a gay man might have a better idea of homophobia and it's effects than a straight man? Not saying that those people can't have conversations or discussions about those subjects that don't directly affect them, just that, shock, horror, there may be more well-informed people out there who you would do well to listen to instead of saying to them "well, let me tell you what I think..."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: jobotic on July 26, 2020, 10:35:15 AM
If "asking questions" hadn't already been described by the questioner as "bursting your bubble" it'd be easier to believe they weren't sealioning
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 10:58:15 AM
Quote from: BeardFaceMan on July 26, 2020, 10:18:18 AM
He's not seeking discussion, he's seeking debate, I would say there's a difference. He's not just asking questions as a matter of curiosity, he's making statements and giving opinions and then asking to be proved wrong, which comes across as aggressive. Of course CIS people should be part of the discussion but it's generally their role to listen, not inform, as trans issues are going to be something outside of their realms of experience and knowledge.

Well you have to decide whether he is worth having the debate with and also this is a feature of his bad attitude and nothing to do with his characteristic directing his role in a conversation.  You've rolled back now other people should be part of the discussion.  Good, it isn't difficult.

QuoteYou don't think a trans persons views hold more weight than a CIS person's views when it comes to trans issues/rights? You don't think a black person might have a better understanding of systemic racism than a white person? That a gay man might have a better idea of homophobia and it's effects than a straight man? Not saying that those people can't have conversations or discussions about those subjects that don't directly affect them, just that, shock, horror, there may be more well-informed people out there who you would do well to listen to instead of saying to them "well, let me tell you what I think..."

No, I absolutely think lived experience is the best way of getting insight on a matter, it isn't however infalliable and it can't be simply mapped to characteristics for example not all black/gay/trans/white/chinese/scousers/model railway ethusiasts think the same and making broad sweeping statements that they do has consequences in itself.  That is just the silly logic side of things, which should be enough for people to not go down the appeal by characteristic route to gaming arguments, but really it's more about the fact that you are saying that someone because of their characteristics should shut and up and listen and it doesn't seem to register that that isn't a very good way to engage people in discussions or debates (as my first point if they are worth engaging) and also can (and is now) being used to against leftwingers to close down arguments.  We are setting the terms and conditions of arguments by employing these "truisms".

You've rolled back again now I see, now it is that some people might be more well informed and worth listening too, which is of course true and absolutely fine.  That is different from telling someone what their job is because they are "x". 

You don't have to listen to anyone, regardless of any characteristic, you might choose to, and someones characteristic doesn't defacto mean they always have a good take on things.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: BeardFaceMan on July 26, 2020, 11:16:25 AM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 10:58:15 AM
Well you have to decide whether he is worth having the debate with and also this is a feature of his bad attitude and nothing to do with his characteristic directing his role in a conversation.  You've rolled back now other people should be part of the discussion.  Good, it isn't difficult.

No, I absolutely think lived experience is the best way of getting insight on a matter, it isn't however infalliable and it can't be simply mapped to characteristics for example not all black/gay/trans/white/chinese/scousers/model railway ethusiasts think the same and making broad sweeping statements that they do has consequences in itself.  That is just the silly logic side of things, which should be enough for people to not go down the appeal by characteristic route to gaming arguments, but really it's more about the fact that you are saying that someone because of their characteristics should shut and up and listen and it doesn't seem to register that that isn't a very good way to engage people in discussions or debates (as my first point if they are worth engaging) and also can (and is now) being used to against leftwingers to close down arguments.  We are setting the terms and conditions of arguments by employing these "truisms".

You've rolled back again now I see, now it is that some people might be more well informed and worth listening too, which is of course true and absolutely fine.  That is different from telling someone what their job is because they are "x". 

You don't have to listen to anyone, regardless of any characteristic, you might choose to, and someones characteristic doesn't defacto mean they always have a good take on things.

Nope, not rolled back anything, never said people not affected by issues can't be part of the discussion, just that they shouldn't lead the discussion demanding that their voice be heard. It's straight/white/male (take your pick, though it's usually all of them) entitlement, thinking that everything they think and say is important and needs to be heard and they have to be a part of everything. If you're just asking questions, why is it so important you put your opinion across too? Never said you should always listen to every trans person on trans issues because everything they say is right always and that you shouldn't listen to CIS people ever because they're wrong always, that's just you taking something to it's illogical conclusion.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 11:23:33 AM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 10:58:15 AM
You don't have to listen to anyone, regardless of any characteristic, you might choose to, and someones characteristic doesn't defacto mean they always have a good take on things.

You'll probably wave this away as a "truism", but being able to safely debate these things is an extremely privileged position in the first place. Cis white middle class people (as the most privileged) seem to prize their 'freedom of speech' over anyone else's basic rights, and will flex those 'rights' (whilst denying others) regardless of what the real-world-consequences will be for those less privileged.

I see you linked 'model railway enthusiasts' into your arbitrary group of minorities or whatnot. That's kinda the crux of it with these 'just-asking-questions' debating types innit. They don't really see a group of people as anything more than hobbyists.

The burden of proof shouldn't be on us to keep saying we're not shit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 11:38:39 AM
Quote from: BeardFaceMan on July 26, 2020, 09:35:52 AM
Because it's not an issue they fully understand and their part in the conversation is to listen, not talk?

Sorry this doesn't imply any of what you just said.

I was saying you've rolled back in a positive sense, it was a good thing you were doing, it showed an ability to reflect.  It isn't the illogical conclusion, it is THE logical conclusion of what you are saying, it is just you haven't bothered to work it through, you don't think it is important, and you comment will ultimately turn to a glib when "of course I didn't mean that", when you were clearly making a statement about the terms and conditions of an argument.

It's not difficult. Don't tell groups that their part is to listen and not talk.  It is authoritarian, comes over very badly in all sorts of ways.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sin Agog on July 26, 2020, 11:39:20 AM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 11:23:33 AM
I see you linked 'model railway enthusiasts' into your arbitrary group of minorities or whatnot. That's kinda the crux of it with these 'just-asking-questions' debating types innit. They don't really see a group people as anything more than hobbyists.

Maybe trenter's been misreading the word as 'trainsphobia' all this time?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 11:43:51 AM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 11:38:39 AM
Don't tell groups that their part is to listen and not talk.  It is authoritarian, comes over very badly in all sorts of ways.

Ok Rowling.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 26, 2020, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 11:38:39 AM
It's not difficult. Don't tell groups that their part is to listen and not talk.  It is authoritarian, comes over very badly in all sorts of ways.

maybe you should try to understand the context in which BeardFaceMan made his post  before calling him authoritarian.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: BeardFaceMan on July 26, 2020, 11:52:55 AM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 11:38:39 AM
It isn't the illogical conclusion, it is THE logical conclusion of what you are saying...

No, it's only logical to you, and that's the telling part.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:03:26 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 11:23:33 AM
You'll probably wave this away as a "truism", but being able to safely debate these things is an extremely privileged position in the first place.

Nope.  That is absolutely fine what is unreasonable or authoritarian about asking for people to be able to debate safely?  Nothing as far as I can see.

QuoteCis white middle class people (as the most privileged) seem to prize their 'freedom of speech' over anyone else's basic rights, and will flex those 'rights' (whilst denying others) regardless of what the real-world-consequences will be for those less privileged.

Nope. lot's do.  Some white middle class people use race/gender etc.. to undermine poor people.  We need a system that defends legitmate interests from bad faith actors and that comes from being clear about what the terms and conditions are of discussions.

It is also perfectly possible for minority groups to be oppressed and inappropriately act with spite and anger towards people that are undeserving of it (in fact this is a very common issue that occurs with marginalised groups because of the psychological stress that gets put upon them).  Me, nor you are above this, we are human, that is why we need to put the necessary checks and balances to try and ameloriate the inevitable mistakes.

QuoteI see you linked 'model railway enthusiasts' into your arbitrary group of minorities or whatnot. That's kinda the crux of it with these 'just-asking-questions' debating types innit. They don't really see a group people as anything more than hobbyists.

It was quite obvious the point I was making and I won't bore you with the whole issue of demographically labelling and how it has historically been use to oppress minorities.  Model railway ethuiasts is in there to demonstrate the banality of grouping people together and nothing more.

QuoteThe burden of proof shouldn't be on us to keep saying we're not shit.

Look regardless of all that i've just written you don't have to prove to anyone you are not shit.  You are a human being and are valued.  It is disgusting some of the stuff i've seen written about trans people, these people are horrid individuals with horrid views we do not need to focus on their gender/race or whatever in order to see that.

I'm purely saying this so we conduct ourselves in a manner that doesn't undercut the tools we need in order win these arguments.  Nuance, context are essential to leftwing causes.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:06:05 PM
Quote from: Sin Agog on July 26, 2020, 11:39:20 AM
Maybe trenter's been misreading the word as 'trainsphobia' all this time?

Karma +1
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:07:19 PM
"Authoritarian"

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/KmFDk6nTh0lUI/source.gif)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:10:14 PM
Quote from: BeardFaceMan on July 26, 2020, 11:52:55 AM
No, it's only logical to you, and that's the telling part.

Err No.  I've written several posts that have at least bothered to attempt some analysis of why it is the case.  So I guess we leave it to other people to decide whether there is value in what i've said.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:12:36 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:07:19 PM
"Authoritarian"

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/KmFDk6nTh0lUI/source.gif)

Ah all the Cab-isms out in effect now.

"you don't understand words and things"

Well done. Clockwork.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:15:09 PM
Just saying you're using unreasonably charged expressions inappropriately to accuse those under the boot as being in fact 'the real oppressors'.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 26, 2020, 12:17:25 PM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:03:26 PM
I'm purely saying this so we conduct ourselves in a manner that doesn't undercut the tools we need in order win these arguments.  Nuance, context are essential to leftwing causes.

incredibly nuanced of you to call your allies 'authoritarian'
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:19:19 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 11:43:51 AM
Ok Rowling.

This you?

Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:15:09 PM
Just saying you're using unreasonably charged expressions inappropriately to accuse those under the boot as being in fact 'the real oppressors'.

No I'm not though am I. 

See here --> trans people are not the real oppressors, the real oppressors are backwards spiteful people that seem to think it is ok to think about and treat other people in such horrid ways.


I'm saying these bellends are best combatted with different tactics.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:22:33 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 26, 2020, 12:17:25 PM
incredibly nuanced of you to call your allies 'authoritarian'

mate.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:23:13 PM
Ok, but I'm saying that's what that language implies.

QuoteOk Rowling.

This you?

Eh?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 26, 2020, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 11:38:39 AM
It's not difficult. Don't tell groups that their part is to listen and not talk.  It is authoritarian, comes over very badly in all sorts of ways.

I don't know, I think it's a tricky one. First of all a lot of people really just want to be educated, but when you're the one who is expected to keep educating people it gets fucking exhausting.

Especially when people have the means to educate themselves... but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, so can we really trust people to educate themselves? How many of Glinner's followers fell down a rabbit hole in the process of doing just that, because they don't know what is valid research and what is sensationalist scaremongering, and because they have stumbled into an echo chamber? What about people like Jonathan Ross and Gia Milinovich who did a U-turn after someone took the time to educate them on trans issues?

As a cis woman who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria I have found the Glinner threads educational, but I do wonder if I'd be wrong to ask questions and try and learn more now. Also I think some people here want a debate just as much as they claim Kryton does.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:28:10 PM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 10:13:35 AM

Your part in the conversation is to shut up and listen because you are not "x" is an abysmal approach to genuinely seeking discussion.

Yep. I'm not going to even bother listening now - It's really fucking annoyed me and generally not made me enthusiastic about even engaging with this anymore. Some extremely toxic people in this thread

SHUT UP, DON'T HAVE OPINIONS, IF YOU DO HAVE AN OPINION YOU'RE A SHIT-EATING, TRANSPHOBE WHO VOTES TORY. DON'T ASK QUESTIONS WE'RE BORED OF QUESTIONS.

Ffs - No wonder people are avoiding some subjects like the plague.

Is this what the modern left are turning into? Absolute state of this. I'm fucking tempted to leave tbh. People are right about this place turning into an echo chamber.

Cookdandbombd used to be a really good place, unique even - but it's just turning into Reddit/Twitter with that bullshit hive-mind, back-slapping bullying crowd that the modern internet seems to be. Seems like I'm not alone in this opinion either.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 26, 2020, 12:29:00 PM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:22:33 PM
mate.

personally I'm getting a bit tired of people who think issues would be resolved if leftists were a little nicer to disingenuous cunts.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: jobotic on July 26, 2020, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:28:10 PM
Yep. I'm not going to even bother listening now - It's really fucking annoyed me and generally not made me enthusiastic about even engaging with this anymore. Some extremely toxic people in this thread

SHUT UP, DON'T HAVE OPINIONS, IF YOU DO HAVE AN OPINION YOU'RE A SHIT-EATING, TRANSPHOBE WHO VOTES TORY. DON'T ASK QUESTIONS WE'RE BORED OF QUESTIONS.

Ffs - No wonder people are avoiding some subjects like the plague.

Is this what the modern left are turning into? Absolute state of this. I'm fucking tempted to leave tbh. People are right about this place turning into an echo chamber.

Cookdandbombd used to be a really good place, unique even - but it's just turning into Reddit/Twitter with that bullshit hive-mind, back-slapping bullying crowd that the modern internet seems to be. Seems like I'm not alone in this opinion either.



Woah I thought you were just asking questions!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 26, 2020, 12:33:18 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 26, 2020, 12:29:00 PM
personally I'm getting a bit tired of people who think issues would be resolved if leftists were a little nicer to disingenuous cunts.

It reminds me of "People would be more sympathetic to feminist causes if you feminists weren't so angry". And the whole thing of trying to educate certain men about feminism is what I had in mind while typing my previous post- trying to educate people is exhausting, especially when so many will listen to you only to dismiss your lived experience and still conclude "Nope, you're wrong".

I have no idea what the solution is though.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:33:25 PM
i am leibing dis group
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on July 26, 2020, 12:36:23 PM
Hahaha being called out for being incredibly insensitive makes this place an echo chamber.

Fucking snowflakes. Get on Stormfront if you want balanced, nuanced debates on these issues.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sin Agog on July 26, 2020, 12:36:48 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:28:10 PMSeems like I'm not alone in this opinion either.

This sentence kinda undercuts the whole echo chamber screed.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:41:38 PM
Quote from: Blue Jam on July 26, 2020, 12:24:34 PM
I don't know, I think it's a tricky one. First of all a lot of people really just want to be educated, but when you're the one who is expected to keep educating people it gets fucking exhausting.

Agree 100%.

QuoteEspecially when people have the means to educate themselves... but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, so can we really trust people to educate themselves? How many of Glinner's followers fell down a rabbit hole in the process of doing just that, because they don't know what is valid research and what is sensationalist scaremongering, and because they have stumbled into an echo chamber? What about people like Jonathan Ross and Gia Milinovich who did a U-turn after someone took the time to educate them on trans issues?

? I'm not sure if this is still relevant to what I was saying but, education as a whole is lots of different things with various people open to various styles/formats etc... Some people do not want to educate themselves though, it isn't that they can't comprehend or don't understand it's that they are committed to their view regardless how vile it is. Some humans are just arseholes with the roots often buried in their psychological upbringing.  I like to think everyone redeemable with enough care and time but the practicalities just don't exist to make it always a reality.

QuoteAs a cis woman who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria I have found the Glinner threads educational, but I do wonder if I'd be wrong to ask questions and try and learn more now. Also I think some people here want a debate just as much as they claim Kryton does.

I think we are getting a bit confused here, i'm saying telling an expanisive group of people determind only by their gender that the condition of engagement is that their role is to listen and not talk - isn't a good way of engaging people and we should aspire to better, this is regardless of the person they were addressing, this is much bigger issue rather than specific to trans people (I made this clear from the start).

Ooooh I just saw that people were talking about Sapolsky (the best imo) everyone should read him.  Of course beyond if we are getting into the nature argument (pointless really to a degree) has anyone pointed out the Glinner that lots of animals spontenously change their biological sex during their lifetime?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on July 26, 2020, 12:47:00 PM
Here's Polish right wing government by the way:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/07/poland-withdraw-treaty-violence-women-200725183422417.html

QuotePoland will take steps next week to withdraw from a European treaty on violence against women, which the right-wing cabinet says violates parents' rights by requiring schools to teach children about gender, the justice minister said.

Just the idea of teaching the concept of gender to children is terrifying to men it seems.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:47:20 PM
Quote from: Blue Jam on July 26, 2020, 12:33:18 PM
It reminds me of "People would be more sympathetic to feminist causes if you feminists weren't so angry". And the whole thing of trying to educate certain men about feminism is what I had in mind while typing my previous post- trying to educate people is exhausting, especially when so many will listen to you only to dismiss your lived experience and still conclude "Nope, you're wrong".

I have no idea what the solution is though.

I think a large part of it is down the limitations of online communication.  We have to create the voice of the other person in our head which is vulnerable to all of our own biases.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: selectivememory on July 26, 2020, 12:48:11 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:28:10 PM
DON'T ASK QUESTIONS WE'RE BORED OF QUESTIONS.

As someone else already pointed out, your questions are very vague, as well as being incredibly offensive and insensitive. I think if you genuinely do want to engage on this issue, you could at least take some time to express yourself more carefully and think about what it is you actually want to ask. Otherwise it just comes across (to me at least) that you do already have quite a few strong opinions about these issues but you just don't want to state them outright.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:41:38 PM
i'm saying telling an expanisive group of people determind only by their gender that the condition of engagement is that their role is to listen and not talk

This might have something to do with the fact that topic is specifically about gender.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:50:07 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 26, 2020, 12:29:00 PM
personally I'm getting a bit tired of people who think issues would be resolved if leftists were a little nicer to disingenuous cunts.

Oh right.  Well i'm not saying that, dont be nice to disigenous cunts.  They are cunts.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 26, 2020, 12:52:41 PM
Notwithstanding that asking questions like 'why trans people are trans' like someone on a Chris Morris-themed forum ought to reply to you on this complicated topic, when there are a million different pre-written answers out there on the internet for the genuinely curious.

The answer, is, of course, "I dunno - possibly a combination of nature and nurture, although it doesn't make a difference."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:53:08 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:49:37 PM
This might have something to do with the fact that topic is specifically about gender.

come on this is silly and adds nothing.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 26, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:47:20 PM
I think a large part of it is down the limitations of online communication.

Especially on Twitter, which is a terrible place to have a debate or go and get educated, but that doesn't stop people trying.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:54:45 PM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:53:08 PM
come on this is silly and adds nothing.

Adds nothing to what? What is your real goal?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:56:24 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 12:54:45 PM
Adds nothing to what? What is your real goal?

World Peace, oh and a Negroni that tastes the same but has zero calories
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:59:00 PM
Quote from: Blue Jam on July 26, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Especially on Twitter, which is a terrible place to have a debate or go and get educated, but that doesn't stop people trying.

Twitter is incredible.  It honestly appears to be inducing somekind of brain damage on its users.  I'm conscious that I'm taking this thread off topic and I really don't want to the do that and I'm sorry that I have.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 01:01:25 PM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:56:24 PM
a Negroni that tastes the same but has zero calories

But of course!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on July 26, 2020, 01:01:25 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:28:10 PM
Yep. I'm not going to even bother listening now - It's really fucking annoyed me and generally not made me enthusiastic about even engaging with this anymore. Some extremely toxic people in this thread

SHUT UP, DON'T HAVE OPINIONS, IF YOU DO HAVE AN OPINION YOU'RE A SHIT-EATING, TRANSPHOBE WHO VOTES TORY. DON'T ASK QUESTIONS WE'RE BORED OF QUESTIONS.

Ffs - No wonder people are avoiding some subjects like the plague.

Is this what the modern left are turning into? Absolute state of this. I'm fucking tempted to leave tbh. People are right about this place turning into an echo chamber.

Cookdandbombd used to be a really good place, unique even - but it's just turning into Reddit/Twitter with that bullshit hive-mind, back-slapping bullying crowd that the modern internet seems to be. Seems like I'm not alone in this opinion either.

it's always good until they don't agree with you isn't it
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 01:04:22 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 01:01:25 PM
But of course!

Trust me GAFS you don't need to worry about me I'm very much on the otherside of this argument than your Rowlings and your Glinners.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 26, 2020, 01:23:49 PM
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 12:59:00 PM
Twitter is incredible.  It honestly appears to be inducing somekind of brain damage on its users.  I'm conscious that I'm taking this thread off topic and I really don't want to the do that and I'm sorry that I have.

No, I think that's a really good point as Graham Linehan had a social media addiction that may very well have altered his brain physiology and personality.

I've seen people here talk about getting a dopamine hit from Twitter but my experience has been very different. I just get really anxious if someone I don't know replies to me and I think "Oh gawd, I don't want a fight, please just leave me alone". When I had scientist friends getting involved in the Tim Hunt debacle on Twitter a few of them kept getting replies from Louise Mensch, who had made Tim Hunt her pet project and evidently had an alert set up for mentions of his name. She implied that she was keeping a list of names somewhere and might set people on Enemies of Sir Tim. While I felt strongly about the issue, all that made me too nervous to even dare tweeting anything about it.

I prefer discussing stuff like that on Facebook, where it's far easier to have a private conversation without strangers piling on and threatening you. Yes, I know that makes me someone who prefers to stay in an echo chamber but fuck it, life's too short.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 26, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
People criticise echo chambers and bubbles, but really, why do I need Brietbart piped on to my phone? I feel like I've got a wideish understanding about a lot of things - for instance the hairdresser the other day was talking about Qanon and I knew quite a bit about it. Do I really need to actually watch Qanon videos? Can I not just read a Snopes article about it?

I mean imho Snopes is a reliable source and Qanon is not one. If I started engaging with Qanon or Brietbart to avoid echo chambers, whose to say I wouldn't potentially find it convincing and compelling? Is it really worth the risk?

Frankly, though, I feel like I am fully aware of the GC counter-arguments, and I find them devoid of substance.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Oz Oz Alice on July 26, 2020, 01:33:12 PM
People only criticise echo chambers when the conversation isn't going their way: they'd be incredibly happy if you just backed down and agreed with them. It's not the echo that's the problem, it's that they don't like the sound bouncing off the walls.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 26, 2020, 01:55:54 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 26, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
People criticise echo chambers and bubbles, but really, why do I need Brietbart piped on to my phone?

It's been said many times before that FREEZE PEACH warriors already have the right to speak freely and what they're really demanding is the right to a platform. Some of them now seem to be going even further and demanding the right to pipe their words into the heads of people who would rather ignore them.

Perhaps there's a place for that- for example, trying to make people listen to what government scientific advisors have to say about coronavirus- but why should I be forced to read what a former MP with no experience of lab work thinks about Tim Hunt? Why should I care what a gay man who hates video games has to say about women's experiences of Gamergate? Why should I listen to what a sitcom writer says about trans issues?

I don't think I'm being wilfully ignorant in deciding that there is nothing of value I could learn from these people on these subjects. Ditto for not wanting to get my "facts" on the Trump presidency from an obvious propaganda outlet like Breitbart, or read about cancer-causing foods in the Daily Mail.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 02:29:24 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 05:58:17 AM
This is an extremely stupid and very dangerous route to go down. It ultimately points towards denying people access to support with all sorts of issues - not just gender dysphoria - on the basis of gross neurology.

Why should this be?  It isn't phrenology?  I certainly was NOT advocating for abuse of science to deny people support etc..

You seem very upset by these ideas.  I agree that science is open to abuse, but it does not make it untrue.  Why should we seek to deny people anything?

If we look at very clearly observable body issues, like say an x-ray of a bone, we could observe that it is broken or not and give treatment or not.  There is more to observe in a brain.  This is not about denying, this is about giving a medical intervention if it is required and the patient wants it.  So is observing skeletal structure by x-ray a dangerous idea?

Your objections seem to be routed in possible abuses within a cultural context, imho.

I don't mind if you think otherwise, your brains structure IS you and your consciousness.  This doesn't mean the science should be used to oppress people.  Why should we even try and medically address something like being gay?

You might as well have said, "Sorry, your MRI results show you don't actually enjoy Mozart, please go to prison"

There is still a lot to learn in neurology, this is true.  You seem to advocate for closing the research down.

Sorry if my post was general in some parts, it was already too long.  This is a comedy forum, not a journal, so I was trying to open some ground for discussion and lay out the basic reasons for variation to those who might have no science background.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 26, 2020, 02:35:57 PM
I guess Sun headlines like 'Abortion Hope after Gay Gene found' could be another reason people are concerned.

I don't have any issues with a further understanding of gender dysphoria. I guess it would be more about how these scientific discoveries are put into practice. Like it's one thing to study nuclear fission reactions and it's another thing to drop a bomb over Hiroshima.

This makes me think about one aspect of this whole debate I'm not familiar with - the word 'truscum' might be used to refer to it. My understanding of transgender identity is that it stems from gender dysphoria, but I believe this might have be labelled 'truscum'. I guess I don't understand why someone would change their gender without feeling some dysphoria. Perhaps I should Google it in a spare moment.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bernice on July 26, 2020, 02:40:40 PM
Genuine question this: did (online?) arguments always devolve into arguments about arguments or is that a fairly recent thing? My feeling is that it's only over the past few years a disagreement online is never two steps away from an "Oh you can't even express an opinion/ ask a question/ disavow the consensus without being pilloried!" With the result that the original opinion/question/disavowal under discussion is gradually emptied of all content and just becomes "a proposition" in the abstract. Somehow the argument becomes about epistemology, praxis and a battle for discourse itself and the actual subject gradually recedes in the rear view mirror.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 02:41:07 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 06:03:38 AM
But that's quite different to arguing that someone's feelings and beliefs actually exist or not on the basis of a CT scan.)

If you have the feeling then it exists. 

CT scan is not a fine enough tool really.  Functional MRI and the like are about gross features.  There is a long way to go.

I think though that I understand now.

You obviously are not pleased by the notion that consciousness, your whole vital you is essentially conjured out of a complex mass of membranes, chemical potentials, electrical potentials etc..

Some take comfort in religion, or notions of a vital unknown self that somehow transcends the physical bounds of their body.

To each their own.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 02:48:09 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 02:29:24 PM
If we look at very clearly observable body issues, like say an x-ray of a bone, we could observe that it is broken or not and give treatment or not.  There is more to observe in a brain.
The relationship between mental states and brain states is not the same as functional states and physical states of a bone.

(This isn't an argument for mind-brain duality.)

QuoteThis is not about denying, this is about giving a medical intervention if it is required and the patient wants it.
No, you made it about whether people are "really women". Whether a trans person is lying or not, according to your account, depends on gross neuroanatomy.

QuoteYour objections seem to be routed in possible abuses within a cultural context, imho.
Yes, they're based on making sense of these claims in human society, correct.

QuoteI don't mind if you think otherwise, your brains structure IS you and your consciousness.
So, to be clear, if we can't find the right brain structure to support your claims about your identity, then you're a liar?

To go back to your earlier post:
Quotethere are some very good, hard science studies which support the case for transwomen being real women"
If we found no convincing sensitive and specific neuroanatomical markers of (true?) transgenderism, does this support the case the transwomen are all liars?

(We have, of course, found no such markers because that's not how complex states like "being transgender" actually work in humans.)


QuoteSorry if my post was general in some parts, it was already too long.
Please don't try to handwave making claims that are inaccurate in their details and hateful in their principles as being too clever for the rest of us.

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 02:49:10 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 02:41:07 PM
You obviously are not pleased by the notion that consciousness, your whole vital you is essentially conjured out of a complex mass of membranes, chemical potentials, electrical potentials etc..
This has never once been an issue for me.

Nothing I have said is, in any fashion, arguing for any kind of dualism.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 02:50:59 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 26, 2020, 02:35:57 PM
I guess it would be more about how these scientific discoveries are put into practice. Like it's one thing to study nuclear fission reactions and it's another thing to drop a bomb over Hiroshima.

I totally agree.  All knowledge can lead to abuse of the power it yields.  It is not the reason to censor the striving for understanding though?  A functional society seeks to avoid h-bombing other nations or locking people up because they have this or that observable characteristic.

Understanding the nature of disease has lead to biological warfare being studied, but it has also brought many benefits to us.  I personally don't like the bio warriors, I did not set up their programs and fund their research.

People have been cunts without the need for science.  In the past people used their eyes to separate each other by skin colour, making some slaves and some masters.  No MRI machines required.

It would be better surely to try and address the sociological problems of bigotry and hate that lead to the abuses?

Just because society is full of cunts doesn't mean we shouldn't try and further our understanding of how complicated things work, saying it is too dangerous well, you might as well become a Jehovah's Witness.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 02:54:11 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 26, 2020, 02:35:57 PM
I don't have any issues with a further understanding of gender dysphoria. I guess it would be more about how these scientific discoveries are put into practice. Like it's one thing to study nuclear fission reactions and it's another thing to drop a bomb over Hiroshima.

Sure. But "neuroanatomy can validate transgender people's claims about their gender" isn't a scientific position.

It's a philosophical one that chooses to privilege neuroanatomy as "hard" or "real" and people's beliefs, attitudes, experiences and feelings as fundamentally irrelevant.

Starting from these positions is fundamentally dangerous and horrible.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:01:29 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 02:50:59 PM
Just because society is full of cunts doesn't mean we shouldn't try and further our understanding of how complicated things work, saying it is too dangerous well, you might as well become a Jehovah's Witness.
That's not what I've said though, is it?

Deciding that I don't need neuroanatomical markers of identity to take someone seriously isn't the same as wanting to avoid furthering understanding.

Arguably, this belief that complex persistent mental states can be readily reduced to neuroanatomical features and that only the latter provides "hard" evidence of the reality of the content of the former reflects both a determination to a) grossly oversimplify how humans actually work and b) avoid a serious engagement with mental states under physicalism in favour of some kind of half-hearted epiphenomenalism.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:07:17 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 02:48:09 PM
T
Please don't try to handwave making claims that are inaccurate in their details and hateful in their principles as being too clever for the rest of us.

This part of my post referred specifically to the bit about variation in genetics and nurture leading to variation in the individual, which is a very general statement of course.

I am not going to type out a library about a general and established idea am I?  Focussing on that to say I am 'handwaving' is arguing in bad faith imho.

It has nothing to do with trying to say, 'ha ha, I'm too clever for the rest of you, just listen to what I say'.

I have made no hateful statements or vouched support for hateful ideas.  I have not advocated for using functional MRI or the like to interrogate somebody and call them invalid or a liar.  You are worried about such.  I have no interest in abusing people like this.

Don't listen to what I say if you don't want to, it makes no diffence really.

Believe whatever you want to believe about what I have said.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 26, 2020, 03:08:21 PM
Quote from: Bernice on July 26, 2020, 02:40:40 PM
Genuine question this: did (online?) arguments always devolve into arguments about arguments or is that a fairly recent thing? My feeling is that it's only over the past few years a disagreement online is never two steps away from an "Oh you can't even express an opinion/ ask a question/ disavow the consensus without being pilloried!" With the result that the original opinion/question/disavowal under discussion is gradually emptied of all content and just becomes "a proposition" in the abstract. Somehow the argument becomes about epistemology, praxis and a battle for discourse itself and the actual subject gradually recedes in the rear view mirror.
This is a thread specifically to keep those "arguments about arguments" away from another thread. And, I've been on here since 2005, and on forums more generally since the late 90s, and the style of argument hasn't changed much. I suspect there was never a golden age.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:11:41 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:07:17 PM
a very general statement of course.
To the point of being meaningless. (In contrast to specific claims about particular causal routes and their relative significance.)

QuoteI have made no hateful statements or vouched support for hateful ideas.
You've said that people's beliefs about who they are[nb]Specifically with reference to gender.[/nb] can be undermined or vindicated by looking at the meat in our heads.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on July 26, 2020, 03:16:26 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 26, 2020, 12:28:10 PM
Yep. I'm not going to even bother listening now - It's really fucking annoyed me and generally not made me enthusiastic about even engaging with this anymore. Some extremely toxic people in this thread

SHUT UP, DON'T HAVE OPINIONS, IF YOU DO HAVE AN OPINION YOU'RE A SHIT-EATING, TRANSPHOBE WHO VOTES TORY. DON'T ASK QUESTIONS WE'RE BORED OF QUESTIONS.

Ffs - No wonder people are avoiding some subjects like the plague.

Is this what the modern left are turning into? Absolute state of this. I'm fucking tempted to leave tbh. People are right about this place turning into an echo chamber.

Cookdandbombd used to be a really good place, unique even - but it's just turning into Reddit/Twitter with that bullshit hive-mind, back-slapping bullying crowd that the modern internet seems to be. Seems like I'm not alone in this opinion either.
No. Stop. Come back.

Several people have attempted to explain to you, both patiently and impatiently, how gross it is for the "normals" to sit around debating exactly how freaky the "freaks" are and you're just not arsed trying to understand. And that's me assuming you really don't understand. You'd rather be Offended because that's what you like best. That's your preferred emotional state.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:01:29 PM
That's not what I've said though, is it?

Arguably, this belief that complex persistent mental states can be readily reduced to neuroanatomical features

No, it was what I said.

We have a very large difference in opinion.  I believe that complex mental states can be reduced to neuroanatomical features, (and all the parameters of chemical/electrical potentials, which means all the positions of ions, solvents, proteins etc etc.).

The amount of data involved in describing a brain is large.  The tools are crude.

Other parts of science, such as psychology take a broader approach, as you well know.

I suspect that at some point, we will see a simple animal brain synthesised from individual parts.

If you could arrange all the chemicals found making up a more complex human brain just so, then you would have created that person, their memories and personality, in my opinion.

This kind of thing is never going to be achievable, but it is not an idea that is hateful.

The problem is in society not in the science.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:24:54 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:20:18 PM
If you could arrange all the chemicals found making up a more complex human brain just so, then you would have created that person, their memories and personality, in my opinion.
This isn't what is under discussion, please stop trying to derail this into "I am physicalist, you are religious nutter".

It comes back to:
If we have found no convincing sensitive and specific neuroanatomical markers of transgenderism, does this support the case the transwomen are all liars?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 26, 2020, 03:25:00 PM
it's not a problem of not having enough data, it's a question of perspective

you're probably not hateful but this

Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 02:41:07 PM
You obviously are not pleased by the notion that consciousness, your whole vital you is essentially conjured out of a complex mass of membranes, chemical potentials, electrical potentials etc..

Some take comfort in religion, or notions of a vital unknown self that somehow transcends the physical bounds of their body.

To each their own.

is Dawkins-tier cuntery
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Endicott on July 26, 2020, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:20:18 PM
The amount of data involved in describing a brain is large.  The tools are crude.

You've just summed up Zet's original objection to what you said, but when you read his post containing that objection you chose to see it as evidence of him being spiritual. It was a weird take on your part and to be honest I'm still giggling about it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:30:18 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 26, 2020, 03:25:00 PM
you're probably not hateful
It's perhaps worth noting that I've met trans people who take refuge in the neurobollocks as well.

I'm sure it's well-meaning to point at these differences in regional cortical thickness or structure volume[nb]With effect sizes of the order of d= 0.2 or something, unless you've got very lucky with your 13 or so subjects[/nb] as say "Look, you weren't full of shit all along!".
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 26, 2020, 03:31:33 PM
Quote from: Famous Mortimer on July 26, 2020, 03:08:21 PM
This is a thread specifically to keep those "arguments about arguments" away from another thread. And, I've been on here since 2005, and on forums more generally since the late 90s, and the style of argument hasn't changed much. I suspect there was never a golden age.

It kinda evokes the 'political correctness gone mad' arguments of the late 90s and 00s, or, on the other side of the coin, the 'you being offended doesn't mean I'm wrong' arguments of the 00s 'new atheist' movement. Or the 'tone policing' arguments of 'social justice' types in the 2010s. Or 'triggered,' even. Always an attempt to derail the substance of the argument by complaining about various aspects of your detractors' arguments.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:33:06 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:11:41 PM
You've said that people's beliefs about who they are[nb]Specifically with reference to gender.[/nb] can be undermined or vindicated by looking at the meat in our heads.

It doesn't have to be specific to gender.  I drew some attention to some studies.  They offended you.

People are what they are.  People are also made of 'meat'.  So what, get over it.  When you talk to somebody, you are effectively examining the meat in their heads through a few layers of abstraction.

Not interested in arguing, you consistently try and make my posts about something that they are not.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 26, 2020, 03:37:01 PM
This thread is even more of a wild ride every time I click it. It's like the forum's concentrated torrent of irritation. I have to hand it to you all, it's a fantastic exhibit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:40:19 PM
Quote from: Endicott on July 26, 2020, 03:27:30 PM
You've just summed up Zet's original objection to what you said, but when you read his post containing that objection you chose to see it as evidence of him being spiritual. It was a weird take on your part and to be honest I'm still giggling about it.

Glad I could make somebody laugh.  It is a comedy forum.

Not exactly spiritual.  My knowledge that we have a long way to go on understanding neurology, does not make me less sure that people are the sum of their physical parts.

Admitting it is a complex issue is fine.  Saying it is too complex and therefore wrong is a different argument.

Nice to see neurology written off as neurobollox or whatever.

In the early days of germ theory, perhaps there were people who called it germbollox?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Thursday on July 26, 2020, 03:43:07 PM
People always bemoan "echo chambers" like we're not all having to deal with people who don't agree with us every day.

I want to have a nice little corner of the internet where everyone basically agrees.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 07:01:56 AM
Looking forward to the day when they take my meds away and charge me with a decade of fraud on the basis of an MRI.
And then I'll be told I need to be less not-exactly-spiritual about it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:47:04 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:40:19 PM
Nice to see neurology written off as neurobollox or whatever.

In the early days of germ theory, perhaps there were people who called it germbollox?
This is exactly like this, isn't it?




If we have found no convincing sensitive and specific neuroanatomical markers of transgenderism, does this support the case that trans people are all liars?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:48:55 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:24:54 PM
This isn't what is under discussion, please stop trying to derail this into "I am physicalist, you are religious nutter".

It comes back to:
If we have found no convincing sensitive and specific neuroanatomical markers of transgenderism, does this support the case the transwomen are all liars?

It won't matter what I say so why bother?  I don't think transgenderism is people lying.

If I try and further explain my point, it won't matter as you disagree with the heart of it.  Not tried to derail anything.  Fruitless and boring at this point.  Believe what you want.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Endicott on July 26, 2020, 03:49:30 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:40:19 PM
Not exactly spiritual. 

You tantamount accused him of being a Xian. No wonder he's pissed.

Quote
Admitting it is a complex issue is fine.  Saying it is too complex and therefore wrong is a different argument.

Too complex to of practical use (probably in our lifetimes, but he didn't say that last bit, that's me that is).

The way politics is going, these ideas will be picked up and abused, whether the science is fully fledged or not.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:51:34 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 03:46:09 PM
And then I'll be told I need to be less not-exactly-spiritual about it.

Why should anybody want to take your medicines away if they are providing a positive effect on your life?

Be whatever you want to be.  Its your life.

Word games are boring.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cuellar on July 26, 2020, 03:52:52 PM
Quote from: Thursday on July 26, 2020, 03:43:07 PM
People always bemoan "echo chambers" like we're not all having to deal with people who don't agree with us every day.

I want to have a nice little corner of the internet where everyone basically agrees.

The internet is great, in that it brings you into contact with all the people you wouldn't want to be in contact with for more than the time it takes them to say 'you know who are the MOST oppressed class, don't you?' in the real world.

It's like having a spare evening, and instead of hanging out with your friends you go along to an EDL meeting. All valuable debate.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 03:53:33 PM
BTW the term 'transgenderism' is really outdated (and typically used by less than savoury types).

x
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:55:21 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 26, 2020, 03:25:00 PM
it's not a problem of not having enough data, it's a question of perspective

you're probably not hateful but this

is Dawkins-tier cuntery

Believe what you like.  I said people can do what they like and that is cuntery?  Call me whatever.

Not interested at this point.

Enjoy.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 04:00:48 PM
Quote from: Endicott on July 26, 2020, 03:49:30 PM
Too complex to of practical use (probably in our lifetimes, but he didn't say that last bit, that's me that is).

It's not just that it's difficult to investigate.

It's to do with the fundamental assumption that the state of "being a trans person" will be physically similar in the head-meat from one person to the next, or that being a "real woman" is a matter of physical similarity in the head-meat.

The first of those is open to investigation, but the second is about what we mean by "woman" and how we currently construct gender and how we're prepared to do in so the future. The second is, fundamentally, not a scientific claim.


Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 03:53:33 PM
BTW the term 'transgenderism' is really outdated (and typically used by less than savoury types).
I appreciate it has unhelpful connotations. In retrospect, I might have said "being a trans person" or "experiencing gender dysphoria" and either of those might have served my point better by emphasising the nature of the state under discussion.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 04:02:35 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 03:51:34 PM
Why should anybody want to take your medicines away if they are providing a positive effect on your life?
I'd like a conversation about this reality, please.

(Where my meds already cost about 4x as much as they did a few years back, for a start.)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on July 26, 2020, 04:15:17 PM
Dunno if this actually makes me a cunt, but I'm going to answer Kryton's questions, so we can at least say that happened.

Quote from: Kryton on July 25, 2020, 09:37:16 PM
So... Without being a cunt/Glinner, let me ask questions.

Are children supposed to just accept it?

Are children just supposed to accept homosexuality or heterosexuality or cisgenderness? The answer to all of the above is yes. And they will in fact "just accept it", because they are constricting their understanding of the world one bit at a time, and do not have any inherent hangups about gay or trans people. That's adult shit, and only came about because people made the arbitrary decision to declare some facets of human existence taboo.

QuoteIf so, at what age?

Whatever age they learn about men and women. Is Richard Scarry still around? Commission him to do a book.

QuoteIs it something that should be normalised

Yes.

Quoteor do we approach it as 'okay some people are having these issues'.

No.

QuoteIf we normalise it, would this not cause more problems when young minds are easily influenced/confused by the world?

This is where the questions creep into transphobic territory, because the implication is that the existence of transgender people is something that is dangerous for children to be aware of, and might have a malign (though undefined) influence on a child.

Remember, some children ARE transgender.

Anyway, the answer is no, just like with gay people. Kids that are trans will drift towards that as they grow older, and it's not like they can have any kind of permanent medical intervention until they've passed 18 and been seen by a series of experts. Other kids might toy with female roleplay (I did, as a wee one) but ultimately decide they're cis. Still others won't even entertain the thought.

You can't "trans" kids, you know, which appears to be the implication here.

QuoteMost kids are struggling to understand the world as it is, so how does one go about explaining this stuff to them? How do I explain to young children that there's some kind of issue (or whatever word it is I'm looking for) that suggests some people are struggling with their gender?

Openly, factually and honestly, same as everything else, after reading up on it yourself using the actually medical experts' opinions and advice. These are your hang-ups, not theirs, and this stuff is only confusing to you because of your ignorance.

"There are boys and girls and they grow up into men and women. Sometimes someone who doctors thought was a little boy at birth actually feels more like a woman as they grow up, and they become a woman, with the help of other doctors. (Repeat for other gender.) They're called trans women and trans men. Most of the time people feel good about the gender the doctors decided on at birth. They're called cis men and women. But whatever someone is, the important thing is that they are a good and kind person. I'm a cis man. You'll figure out what you are many years from now so don't worry about it much. But the important thing is to treat all people well."

QuoteAt what point in their lives do we introduce this stuff without damaging their childhood and confusing them (and by proxy creating stigma)? Is it around the time we introduce sex education? Before? After?

See above. Your circling on this, and the vagueness of "damaging their childhood" (how?) and *confusing them" (how?) speaks more to a discomfort with trans people than any universal truth about kids.

QuoteEven introducing this stuff to a young child might cause issues when a pre-pubescent say feminine boy might think it's because they're a girl, instead of it just being pre-pubescent issues.

Why is this a problem? If kids have been raised not to be cunts about this and parents understand that this is something kids go through, they'll just accept that it's something to be figured out and get on with life.

QuoteRegarding sports, even with hormone treatment to transition, would it be fair to say have a 'former man' compete equally with women in say the Olympics? I'm not going to use the word 'cheat' as I don't think it's cheating in the literal sense, but until we get mixed gender sports, would it be fair? Or should it be a different category?

Don't know, don't care. This is something that sports leagues, which are actually paid to consider these issues in collaboration with scientists and the latest studies on these aspects of human biology, can decide. It's nothing we need to discuss here, and only contributes to othering and dehumanising trans people.

QuoteShould all women just accept that a former man is now a woman, even though they weren't born biologically female. Is it just a case of 'shut up, accept it, if you don't you're a TERF or bigot?

Yes.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 04:21:36 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 04:02:35 PM
I'd like a conversation about this reality, please.

(Where my meds already cost about 4x as much as they did a few years back, for a start.)

Talking to me about it is not going to help though is it?

If you gave me a lab and some start materials I could make you a lifetimes supply but that would be expensive and illegal if they are controlled materials.  I could tell you step by step how to make them I suppose.

It is not too tricky.  You might need an NMR machine and an IR to check on what structures you have actually made.  Plus you are going to have to do some column chromatography, but it is not that hard either.

Being glib aside, I don't know how I could help you re. this.  you could write to your MP, or other representative, or start a grass roots campaign to try and get support for your issues regarding supply and cost of medicine.[nb]Edited to make it clearer[/nb]

Not interested in posting at all anymore for reasons.
Quote
Why is this a problem? If kids have been raised not to be cunts about this and parents understand that this is something kids go through, they'll just accept that it's something to be figured out and get on with life.

Mister Six, I agree.  Would be nice if everybody could stop being cunts.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bernice on July 26, 2020, 04:23:34 PM
What about tailors and dressmakers? Garments are made for the typical range of cis bodies after all. Is it just a case of "shut up terf Topshop, make an inclusive frock"?  What about shoes, should we just pretend that women don't have smaller feet? Adopt European sizing conventions? How am I supposed to tell my gardener that my former neighbour Dave is now my former neighbour Jill?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on July 26, 2020, 04:25:32 PM
Should transpeople be made to do national service, to make up for us allowing them to live?

I'm just asking questions.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 26, 2020, 04:43:25 PM
(nvm) xx
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 26, 2020, 04:46:50 PM
feel like Tao of Wub got a little railroaded there personally. They made a relatively innocuous comment and found themselves being burnt in a strawman. They don't come across like a bigot or a hater and should be given the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Endicott on July 26, 2020, 04:57:13 PM
Sentence 3 I agree with. Maybe if wub had rowed back on the accusations of Zet being mentally ill, possibly even apologised for said twattery, and not acted instead like a really sore loser, the discussion might have progressed in a less hilarious fashion and been interesting for good and not bad reasons.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 05:57:56 PM
Sorry everybody for any offence.

I probably haven't communicated my ideas effectively.  This is my fault.  I find each back and forth to not achieve anything as it feels like arguing at cross purposes,  about different things.

I don't think I have said the things that some posters are saying I have said.

My opinions are only that and not worth arguing about.  If people think I am a bigot and am asking transpeople to prove themselves somehow, all I can say is that is as far from how I think on it as you could get.

Not got anything more to say at this point as I am finding it too depressing to be honest.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chedney Honks on July 26, 2020, 06:05:06 PM
I got a lot of time for you and Zet. Take a breather, I really feel like no harm done here and I'm basically the barometer of sanity.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Endicott on July 26, 2020, 06:08:44 PM
CH is right, there's no one here saner than him.

I very much doubt anyone thinks you're a bigot wub. You had an argument and it didn't go to plan. It happens.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cloud on July 26, 2020, 06:29:15 PM
Kryton I'd just written some stuff and clicked send but, your PMs appear to be disabled

To throw a rough 2p in, having a few trans friends I'm in support of them and very disturbed about the Glinner types and to a lesser extent Rowling (though I think hers is more of a stubborn ignorance than hate) but I don't think it's unreasonable to have questions and concerns.  I just don't really bring them up, as it's so easy to give people the wrong idea (especially if they think they have you sussed as someone with an agenda)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: tao of wub on July 26, 2020, 05:57:56 PM
I probably haven't communicated my ideas effectively.  This is my fault.
No, the problem is that some of your ideas are wrong, including the belief that investigations of neuroanatomy can determine whether someone is "really" a woman or not.

QuoteIf people think I am a bigot
For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bigot. I think you have certain beliefs that have awful implications, and that you're unwilling to seriously consider this because you're so pleased with those beliefs in the first place.

(And I think your attachment to those beliefs are driven by broadly laudable attitudes.)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 08:00:26 PM
Quote from: Chedney Honks on July 26, 2020, 06:05:06 PM
I got a lot of time for you and Zet. Take a breather, I really feel like no harm done here
The belief that neuroanatomy trumps or ratifies people's expressed emotions and beliefs is an insidious one, all the more so because of how attractive it is to well-meaning fools. It does real harm now, in how it biases funding and interventions for those in distress.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chedney Honks on July 26, 2020, 08:16:53 PM
I didn't read either of your posts because they looked boring. Nobody will have done so no harm done.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: TrenterPercenter on July 26, 2020, 09:49:44 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on July 26, 2020, 08:00:26 PM
The belief that neuroanatomy trumps or ratifies people's expressed emotions and beliefs is an insidious one, all the more so because of how attractive it is to well-meaning fools. It does real harm now, in how it biases funding and interventions for those in distress.

You are perhaps being a bit harsh on Tao in a sense but you are absolutely right.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 26, 2020, 10:01:25 PM
Quote from: Cloud on July 26, 2020, 06:29:15 PM
Kryton I'd just written some stuff and clicked send but, your PMs appear to be disabled
Because he was such a prick before that Barry disabled his ability to send PMs. But he's probably just asking questions in good faith, or whatever line he's using now.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cloud on July 26, 2020, 11:04:01 PM
Quote from: Famous Mortimer on July 26, 2020, 10:01:25 PM
Because he was such a prick before that Barry disabled his ability to send PMs.

[citation needed]
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 26, 2020, 11:14:03 PM
He asked for a temp ban.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cloud on July 26, 2020, 11:27:56 PM
Fair play
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: dissolute ocelot on July 27, 2020, 11:24:14 AM
Quote from: Bernice on July 26, 2020, 04:23:34 PM
What about tailors and dressmakers? Garments are made for the typical range of cis bodies after all. Is it just a case of "shut up terf Topshop, make an inclusive frock"?  What about shoes, should we just pretend that women don't have smaller feet? Adopt European sizing conventions? How am I supposed to tell my gardener that my former neighbour Dave is now my former neighbour Jill?
Women's clothes already come in midget, giant, and enormously bellied, surely broader than average shoulders would be good for swimmers and stuff. And an increasing number of designers are making gender-neutral clothes. ASOS has a range, although many of them are awful, but that's true of ASOS's other clothes as well.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 27, 2020, 12:29:30 PM
Some tailors already cater to trans folk:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/tailor-trans-people-suits-mens-womens-sections-gender-neutral-bindle-and-keep-transparent-paul-a7930136.html

I didn't know ASOS did a gender-neutral range, will have to check that out even though it probably is terrible like all their own-brand stuff.

How necessary are gender-neutral sections in shops? I'm asking as a woman who already buys men's clothes and things like women's shirts which aren't close-fitting and don't have darts over the bust and hips, etc. Lots of sportswear is already unisex. I think fashion is pretty fluid as it is, for women at least. I imagine it is harder for men who want to wear more feminine styles though.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 27, 2020, 12:34:49 PM
with trans and NB people making up such a small percentage of the population, I doubt there's much financial incentive to make a special space to cater for them in Primark.

There's a place that does clothing for trans people in my town. It's existed for as long as I can remember - at least 25 years. I guess it's like Jacamo for trans people.

edit: just checked and they've been going for over three decades, but their website makes it sound like they are a very unique brick-and-mortar store and perhaps a one-of-a-kind

I'm well paranoid about sharing personal info on here because some of the twats on Twitter have tried to dox me in the past, and I worry that some GCers stalk this board so they can build dossiers on so-called 'misogynists'. Is that weird? I mean, they seem incredibly unhinged. It wouldn't surprise me.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 27, 2020, 12:37:54 PM
Also see the pubs reopening thread and all the talk of lads out on the town in their skinny jeans. Tight trousers and loose tops now seem to be the norm for people of all genders and none, and that seems to have been the case since 2003 at least.

Today I learned the word "meggings" - men's leggings. Not a new thing though, men's running tights and compression leggings have been A Thing since forever. Well, at least since sports shops have been catering to men who want practical stuff to work out in.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 27, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 27, 2020, 12:34:49 PM
I'm well paranoid about sharing personal info on here because some of the twats on Twitter have tried to dox me in the past, and I worry that some GCers stalk this board so they can build dossiers on so-called 'misogynists'. Is that weird? I mean, they seem incredibly unhinged. It wouldn't surprise me.

After posting a flippant comment under one of Graham Linehan's YouTube videos I had someone make a reference to me posting on CaB in what seemed like a bid to freak me out. I think they genuinely do see any people who disagree with them as active hardcore "TRAs" and they can't comprehend that most people simply don't care about these issues to the insanely obsessive degree that they do. To them CaB is a trans rights forum and not merely a comedy forum where people are wondering what the hell happened to one of their favourite sitcom writers. To TERFs, Twitter and Reddit are also run by shadowy cabals of militant TRAs and anyone who replies to a tweet with "I haven't seen JK Rowling's tweet, please leave me alone" must be in league with them.

So yes, I'd be inclined to be a bit careful as they do seem to have this deranged "with us or against us" attitude, though the same can be said of many other groups. I used to notice similar behaviour in UKIP supporters and advocates for alternative medicine, from the belief that anyone who disagrees with them no matter how mildly must have some sinister agenda or be on the payroll of some lobbying group, to the obsession with finding out who their opponents are and building dossiers and threatening them.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Bernice on July 27, 2020, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: dissolute ocelot on July 27, 2020, 11:24:14 AM
Women's clothes already come in midget, giant, and enormously bellied, surely broader than average shoulders would be good for swimmers and stuff. And an increasing number of designers are making gender-neutral clothes. ASOS has a range, although many of them are awful, but that's true of ASOS's other clothes as well.

Just to be clear, I was taking the piss with those questions. But thanks for answering patiently.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 10:21:01 AM
I think the question that this debate has raised for me is not about trans issues specifically at all. You can maybe state it briefly as:

What should society do if different groups claim rights that - although reasonable in themselves - end up being incompatible?

I think that the history of expanding civil rights has up to now not had too much of a problem with this. Granting the right to whites-only spaces to black people upset racists, but racists' rights to whites-only spaces were never reasonable in the first place. Giving gay people the right to marry upset some who felt that it impinged on or broke 'traditional' concepts of marriage, but in the end those supporters of 'traditional' concepts of marriage couldn't identify any real repercussions beyond uncomfortable feelings. Society found it relatively easy to weigh the rights of fundamentalist B&B owners against gay couple guests. The 'unacceptable cake messages' cases in the EU and US got closer to finding a really intractable conflict, but (a) they concerned a fairly niche right and (b) the outcomes in both cases were (I'd argue) in the end reasonable.

All of these are successful examples of balancing rights I'd say; not perfect, but earnest and labourious attempts to find a societally sanctioned ethical basis for declaring where a line between conflicting rights lies. I don't think, though, that the fact that these examples worked out means that we will always be able to find such a line. Maybe in some cases there is no ethically justifiable line, there's just two groups with two views that in isolation seem fine but in combination cause conflict and upset. What do we do then?

One possibility is arguing that - where no agreed line can be drawn - society's role is to step back and just attend to practical outcomes. We do this with religions, obviously, where society feels no particular need to reconcile conflicting supernatural beliefs because in practice they don't usually result in conflicts. Catholics and Protestants believe different things about the physical process of communion/transubstantiation, but as it happens (or doesn't) in the privacy of people's throats, there's not much scope for practical contention. By this view society should step in either (a) where there is an ethically justifiable line to be drawn or, if there isn't then (b) where conflicts of rights result in actual harm. I think I agree with that view, but I'd be interested to hear other views. Should society always try to make a ruling once there's a public conflict occurring? Should society never try to make a ruling, and just devote energy to stopping people actually hurting each other?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 30, 2020, 10:28:32 AM
law and legislation should go for the least-harm approach.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 30, 2020, 10:28:32 AM
law and legislation should go for the least-harm approach.

Sure, but should they also try - where possible - to make a general declaration about which outcome of the conflict is least harmful? Trying to rule case-by-case on cake messaging is going to get hard quickly...
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 30, 2020, 10:33:42 AM
Quote from: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 10:32:41 AM
Sure, but should they also try - where possible - to make a general declaration about which outcome of the conflict is least harmful? Trying to rule case-by-case on cake messaging is going to get hard quickly...

If it's evidence-based rather than based off gut instincts or casual bigotry, then yes of course.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 30, 2020, 10:36:50 AM
Quote from: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 10:21:01 AM
I think that the history of expanding civil rights has up to now not had too much of a problem with this.

See: Gay rights

Not seeing your point as much more than semantics how this specific emancipation movement is so unique.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 10:41:13 AM
Quote from: JaDanketies on July 30, 2020, 10:33:42 AM
If it's evidence-based rather than based off gut instincts or casual bigotry, then yes of course.

Yes absolutely... I'm just struck by how in some cases the evidence seems bluntly obvious - as with desegregation - whereas with others it becomes a more 'legislate and observe' strategy. I suppose my point is that not every kind of conflict can be resolved cleanly, obviously and without need for ongoing monitoring.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 10:43:11 AM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 30, 2020, 10:36:50 AM
See: Gay rights

Not seeing your point as much more than semantics how this specific emancipation movement is so unique.

I don't think it is unique, but I think it's harder to do right. I also think we will encounter more examples in future that are hard, because they will also involve conflicts that need deep thought and real, unbiased measuring of outcomes. Maybe the easier battles have been won already?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: dissolute ocelot on July 30, 2020, 11:13:16 AM
I don't think there's anything new or difficult raised by trans people. For a long time there have been issues such as whether the Roman Catholic church, conservative Jewry, golf clubs, and freemasons should be forced to give women, gays, trans people, Irish, Jews, blacks, and other groups equal rights, but the consensus seems to be that public services must be for everyone but you let the nutters do what they want as long as it's in private and they're not actively inciting hate.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on July 30, 2020, 11:32:45 AM
I would think a more tricky balancing act that you couldn't defer to 'experts' or 'whatever produces the least harm' would be intentional race segregation. For instance, the Bahar Mustafa controversy from a few years ago, but writ large. It's one thing to host an event that is targeted towards women or ethnic minorities, and it's an arguably trickier proposal to host an event that white people or men are forbidden from attending. You'll be hard-pressed to convince people that it's okay to prevent people from accessing public or private spaces based on their gender or race, because they're part of the 'oppressor class'. Bahar Mustafa also compounded the problem by saying things like #killallmen - and if you're doing that in combination with throwing events they're forbidden from accessing, it's hard to say 'I'm only joking about kill all men, and anyway this is not really sexist because of issues of power and privilege and it's something that I should be allowed to do.'

I kinda think that this whole 'all white people and men are awful, and it is fine for me to say this' political movement died a death anyway a few years ago but I wouldn't be surprised to see it re-emerge.

When Bahar Mustafa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahar_Mustafa_race_row) happened, I was not very sympathetic, and I think things like that could've been used to subsume me into the alt-right. As it happens, it was a big hullaballoo about nothing and I can't believe I even cared about it.

Other things that I don't think should be a challenge but I can imagine getting a lot of societal pushback include:


nothing to do with Glinner though
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on July 30, 2020, 11:37:50 AM
Quote from: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 10:21:01 AM
I think the question that this debate has raised for me is not about trans issues specifically at all. You can maybe state it briefly as:

What should society do if different groups claim rights that - although reasonable in themselves - end up being incompatible?

hmm. this might look like you're implying that terfs are actually reasonable.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 11:50:19 AM
Quote from: dissolute ocelot on July 30, 2020, 11:13:16 AM
I don't think there's anything new or difficult raised by trans people. For a long time there have been issues such as whether the Roman Catholic church, conservative Jewry, golf clubs, and freemasons should be forced to give women, gays, trans people, Irish, Jews, blacks, and other groups equal rights, but the consensus seems to be that public services must be for everyone but you let the nutters do what they want as long as it's in private and they're not actively inciting hate.

What I struggle with, though, is whether it will always, necessarily, be easy to steer that course (or to put it another way whether we will always be able to build a consensus provided people behave reasonably)? I'd like to think yes, but I can't see any particular reason why that should be true.

Quote from: JaDanketies on July 30, 2020, 11:32:45 AM
I would think a more tricky balancing act that you couldn't defer to 'experts' or 'whatever produces the least harm' would be intentional race segregation. For instance, the Bahar Mustafa controversy from a few years ago, but writ large. It's one thing to host an event that is targeted towards women or ethnic minorities, and it's an arguably trickier proposal to host an event that white people or men are forbidden from attending. You'll be hard-pressed to convince people that it's okay to prevent people from accessing public or private spaces based on their gender or race, because they're part of the 'oppressor class'. Bahar Mustafa also compounded the problem by saying things like #killallmen - and if you're doing that in combination with throwing events they're forbidden from accessing, it's hard to say 'I'm only joking about kill all men, and anyway this is not really sexist because of issues of power and privilege and it's something that I should be allowed to do.'

I kinda think that this whole 'all white people and men are awful, and it is fine for me to say this' political movement died a death anyway a few years ago but I wouldn't be surprised to see it re-emerge.

When Bahar Mustafa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahar_Mustafa_race_row) happened, I was not very sympathetic, and I think things like that could've been used to subsume me into the alt-right. As it happens, it was a big hullaballoo about nothing and I can't believe I even cared about it.

Other things that I don't think should be a challenge but I can imagine getting a lot of societal pushback include:


  • Gender segregation in religious facilities
  • Ritual circumcision of infants

nothing to do with Glinner though

Thanks for that, and yes it's an interesting example because it's a conflict that - as you say - could have been more divisive and important if it hadn't just fizzled. I do think that this question is relevant to the Glinner thing, but only because an appreciation of how complex this kind of thing can be should make it easier to not get enormously angry with people who disagree with one about rights.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Endicott on July 30, 2020, 02:08:52 PM
Quote from: chveik on July 30, 2020, 11:37:50 AM
hmm. this might look like you're implying that terfs are actually reasonable.

Yes, this. Summed up far better that I could. All the conflicts are strawmen.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pancake on July 30, 2020, 02:23:44 PM
Can't believe there's a Glinner red button!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 02:28:59 PM
Quote from: Endicott on July 30, 2020, 02:08:52 PM
Yes, this. Summed up far better that I could. All the conflicts are strawmen.

Why do you say that?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 30, 2020, 03:00:45 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 24, 2020, 08:09:59 PM
I think this argument stems from the assertion that there are no reasonable grounds for differentiating between trans women and women. This implies that sexual dimorphism isn't a reasonable ground for such a distinction. I agree it's a reach to then argue that this implies that sexual dimorphism is irrelevant in all cases, but I think that's where that view starts.

Going in circles pal
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 03:05:58 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 30, 2020, 03:00:45 PM
Going in circles pal

I think you're taking something from that I didn't intend, which is my fault as reading it back it is very unclear :)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on July 30, 2020, 06:01:11 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 10:21:01 AM

What should society do if different groups claim the right to exist rights that - although reasonable in themselves - end up being incompatible?


Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 30, 2020, 06:05:34 PM
The right to exist? That settles it then. Glinner is a shit Kafka. Trans Kafka. Woke up one day and realised he was an insect, crushed on the windshield of his own racecar bed.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Blue Jam on July 30, 2020, 06:12:22 PM
.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on July 30, 2020, 06:46:16 PM
Quote from: Blue Jam on July 30, 2020, 06:05:34 PM
The right to exist? That settles it then. Glinner is a shit Kafka. Trans Kafka. Woke up one day and realised he was an insect, crushed on the windshield of his own racecar bed.

Oh my God.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pdine on July 31, 2020, 09:37:18 AM
Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on July 30, 2020, 06:01:11 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 10:21:01 AMWhat should society do if different groups claim the right to exist rights that - although reasonable in themselves - end up being incompatible?

I'm confused now... that isn't a quote from me. I posted the bits that aren't in bold. If you're saying that an example of a conflict of rights might be one group wanting a right to exist, and another group wanting the right to eliminate the first, I'd say that would be a simple case for society to rule on: everyone has a right to exist. As I say though, I don't really feel I understand your post enough to respond sensibly.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Endicott on July 31, 2020, 12:52:51 PM
Quote from: Pdine on July 30, 2020, 02:28:59 PM
Why do you say that?

Sorry for the delay. Take encroachment into safe spaces as an example. The claim is that one logical consequence of self-id is that it will allow men to enter women's refuges. But this is a distortion. It is easily refuted because women's refuges are not places that are open to any woman, they are controlled spaces and whomsoever runs a refuge can exclude anyone they want if they think that person is going to disrupt the space. Hence the claim fits the definition of a strawman.
Title: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: Polymorphia on April 03, 2021, 11:37:15 PM
I just want to say something, and I don't want it to disrupt discussion here. But it does seem weird that cis people here are so obsessed with Graham Linehan even at this point, tracking every move he makes, making claims about where this may have come from. Maybe the reason is evident in my post above (the absurdity of a known comedy writer descending into... this). But it does seem that Linehan's influence is incedibly diminished. Incredibly.

To some extent it's good, keeps a track on him, though some people have wondered if Linehan browses this forum, in which case:
- Doesn't posting here fuel him, if he reads this forum?

This ain't an indictment or nothing, and I don't want Barry to send this post to that other thread. Just an observation which I think is pertinent. I'm in other trans groups online (for your information, I'm trans - my gender is yet to be worked out, but it's something fem), and even the British members there have no real idea of what Linehan's doing, because he's really fallen out of relevance. Completely and totally, and they don't (from experience) want to hear about what's happening to him now. He's just on his shitty substack. At this point, countless pages in threads give him more credence than he deserves, really.

I'm willing to agree to disagree on this (really, only with trans people, and I mean that). The last posts of what he's posted on his substack made me feel sick, and honestly, who sees those posts but a few followers and us?

Huh, new page - wish it was better than this. Also, feel free to continue posting as you were (I say, hoping you don't give this fuckhead the pages he doesn't deserve)
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: JaDanketies on April 03, 2021, 11:54:47 PM
Well this is a forum about UK comedy rather than trans issues, so natch there's an interest in Linehan particularly.


I started posting here because I had a mawkish interest in him and this board was a large and amusing depository of info.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: Ferris on April 04, 2021, 12:12:23 AM
It's fair enough, and it gets asked from time to time (not least by people who post in here regularly). I can't speak for everyone, but here's my take on it. I hope this doesn't come across as a vent - it isn't meant to. This is something I've been thinking about as well, so am I ok with this thread, and why do I think it is justifiable?

For me, the considerations fall into two broad categories; should we respond to him (especially now that he is diminished)? And does posting here fuel him further? My answers only apply to me, and hopefully they explain why I still follow this thread (albeit with periods of not giving a fuck).

To cover off point 1 - I never go looking for his content. He could post whatever outrageous nonsense he wants and I'd have absolutely no idea. Neither would the vast majority of people anywhere, even online comedy nerds like me. A few people will post it in here, and a few people (myself included) will respond to it. And that speaks to your point - nobody will see this. I'm not posting on behalf of a national news organization, CaB is not a major platform - he has his grubby corner of the internet and we have ours. As long as we strive to avoid interaction (and we should avoid direct interaction with him), this is so absurdly niche as to not merit damage to anyone. Commenting from the sidelines is fair enough, especially as he is the person who is regularly making his opinion as public as he can. It's not seeking out some anonymous blog poster - he's in Hansard with this shit and it appears to be a constant, unending stream. If he knocked it on the head for 2 months this thread would die on its arse, but it won't because he can't.

But should we track his every move? No, I don't think so, and I don't think we do really. We follow him closer than anyone else, because this is a comedy forum and he's a former comedy writer responsible for a lot of incredible stuff (albeit approaching 30 years ago). If Chris Morris had depth-charged his career by publicly devoting his every waking moment to Britain First (for example), then yeah I'd expect this is exactly the type of place to cover it (and likely, the only one). I also think the thread (broadly) has reasonable boundaries. We shouldn't (ever) mention his family - response to his public proclamations is fair enough but that should the limit of it.

Last point on him being diminished - yes, he is now a bit of a nobody, but once upon a time (ie a year ago) he used his niche celebrity to harm people. Pile-ons against female and male comedians, all round bullying, and just being a prick. He was banned for that (eventually) because people saw it and said "this is not ok". In our own way, that is exactly what we are doing - what he's up to is not ok. I have queer immediate family and I'm not going to skip a response to his latest escapades on a niche forum that no one will ever see because it hypothetically makes him feel better.

Finally - does this thread fuel him? Well, I think we're well past that. I think everyone would be happier if he stopped using the internet and sorted himself out a bit (I say as much every few pages), but he won't and Christ knows a thread on CaB isn't going to be the catalyst for him to give it a rest (or to continue). He's plowing his own furrow, and I don't think a few dozen strangers on the internet will impact that really. As someone put it earlier, him saying "I won't stop" actually means "I will continue to do this" and there's a big difference.

Ultimately, he can do what he likes. There's nothing a niche forum with a few dozen users can do to him that Real Life hasn't done already, and equivocating on the sidelines won't change that.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: Polymorphia on April 04, 2021, 12:22:51 AM
Thanks for the replies, you all. I think I feel a little better about this. Maybe my despair is more about Linehan (once, a genuinely great writer) than this forum, and the forum consistently showing his downfall brings me more into despair. I guess, given it effects me specifically (and other users present here, and in this thread), seeing his nastiness really disgusts me, and likely much more than the average (cis) person here.

I'd hate to see yet another thread have to be made about him. A ninth thread. Let's hope not.

Maybe I'm more worried about cis users here descending into almost monomania about him, in a topic they have no real experience of. To cis people, Linehan's transphobia is merely an oddity, but to trans people (like me, and others here) it's genuinely fucking scary, and has precedent in day to day life
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: idunnosomename on April 04, 2021, 12:25:03 AM
except when we invaded his new substack to call him a cunt I don't think he's ever acknowledged us. if you search "Graham Linehan" on Google the first page, other than his wiki, is all news bits about how he's anti-transgender. not sure how many pages till we show up.

hey though he's still repped
https://www.independenttalent.com/writers/graham-linehan/

that executive producer/co-creator credit doing a lot of heavy lifting for the four-year gap on your CV eh graham
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: bgmnts on April 04, 2021, 12:26:08 AM
Quote from: Polymorphia on April 04, 2021, 12:22:51 AM
To cis people, Linehan's transphobia is merely an oddity, but to trans people (like me, and others here) it's genuinely fucking scary, and has precedent in day to day life

I'll be honest, that sounds a little presumptuous to me.

I think most cis people do genuinely care about these horrid people and the damage they could do to whatever marginalised group they want to aggressively oppress.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: Polymorphia on April 04, 2021, 12:41:45 AM
I'd cut out "most", I doubt most cis people even have the slightest idea of trans issues.

I don't doubt your views or your emotions in holding them. I'm absolutely certain you care and I genuinely believe that. But what is to cis people "oh hell, trans people have this against them" feels like an actual fucking wall of death to me, and many other trans people
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: Ferris on April 04, 2021, 12:42:04 AM
Quote from: Polymorphia on April 04, 2021, 12:22:51 AM
Thanks for the replies, you all. I think I feel a little better about this. Maybe my despair is more about Linehan (once, a genuinely great writer) than this forum, and the forum consistently showing his downfall brings me more into despair. I guess, given it effects me specifically (and other users present here, and in this thread), seeing his nastiness really disgusts me, and likely much more than the average (cis) person here.

I'd hate to see yet another thread have to be made about him. A ninth thread. Let's hope not.

Maybe I'm more worried about cis users here descending into almost monomania about him, in a topic they have no real experience of. To cis people, Linehan's transphobia is merely an oddity, but to trans people (like me, and others here) it's genuinely fucking scary, and has precedent in day to day life

I think as long he's churning out his fringe beliefs as loudly and publicly as possible, people will respond to them. Not to challenge them is to tacitly endorse them. This is a (largely) progressive comedy forum so I'd expect there to be a 9th thread (and a tenth, and an eleventh, ad infinitum until he sorts himself out). It's depressing, but that's the reality.

I don't think anyone is monomaniacal about him - I keep saying it, but I'd be all in favour of him sorting himself out and getting his life together (and these threads ending, which they would within a month of his final missive). It would be better for everyone involved in his end, but that won't happen.

I think this is the most I've thought about him for months, and (as I do every so often), I'm going to take a break from his bilge. I'll check back in a fortnight, but I'm sure fuck all will have changed (except I will have been spared his latest screeds). It's not a bad tactic honestly.

Edit: grammar.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: pigamus on April 04, 2021, 12:50:32 AM
He's surely lurking here. Harder to believe he isn't than he is at this point. He couldn't know we were talking about him and not read every word of it, could he?
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: Jumblegraws on April 04, 2021, 12:54:23 AM
Thanks for posting all this, Polymorphia. I'm one of the thread regulars who's prone to going out of their way to grab fistfuls of shit from Linehan's Substack and bring it back here to wave under everyone's noses, and I probably don't think enough about any unintended consequences that might have. Wish I could articulate my thoughts on everything you've said a bit better, but that's all I've got for now.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: Sonny_Jim on April 04, 2021, 12:58:32 AM
Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on April 04, 2021, 12:12:23 AM
If he knocked it on the head for 2 months this thread would die on its arse, but it won't because he can't.
He can't stop posting for 2 days, let alone 2 months.  But I can't really say much as I check his SGB each day to see what hateful shit he's posting now.  The main difference is that my interest is driven by curiosity and schadenfreude, whereas his seems to be driven purely by hate.
Quote
But should we track his every move? No, I don't think so, and I don't think we do really.
I found myself on the Companies House searching for his production company to see what his current income was, that felt a bit creepy if I'm honest.  I'm always reading the bile he writes to post the very worst bits here.  I don't know why I do this.  Same reason why people look at car accidents I suppose.  But as you and others point out, copying and pasting the worst bits to here isn't exactly a positive thing to do, so maybe I shouldn't do that as much.
Quote from: Polymorphia on April 04, 2021, 12:22:51 AM
Thanks for the replies, you all. I think I feel a little better about this. Maybe my despair is more about Linehan (once, a genuinely great writer) than this forum, and the forum consistently showing his downfall brings me more into despair. I guess, given it effects me specifically (and other users present here, and in this thread), seeing his nastiness really disgusts me, and likely much more than the average (cis) person here.
I can definitely see why being constantly reminded of his shittiness could bring you down but If there's an upside to this thread, it's definitely made me more aware of all the different issues trans people face.
Quote
Maybe I'm more worried about cis users here descending into almost monomania about him
I find myself every so often going on a 'Glinner Break', where it's just too bleak and depressing.  So I just stop doing it for a bit.  It's a shame Graham can't do the same.
Quote from: pigamus on April 04, 2021, 12:50:32 AM
He's surely lurking here. Harder to believe he isn't than he is at this point. He couldn't know we were talking about him and not read every word of it, could he?
I doubt it, he's too busy lurking on Twitter trying to find the next 'scoop' for his 'investigative journalism'.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: Kankurette on April 04, 2021, 01:06:13 AM
Tbh I don't follow him, I only know about what he's up to because of this thread.

ETA: I'm cis and I certainly don't find Linehan an oddity, I think he's dangerous.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: Jumblegraws on April 04, 2021, 01:06:36 AM
Quote from: pigamus on April 04, 2021, 12:50:32 AM
He's surely lurking here. Harder to believe he isn't than he is at this point. He couldn't know we were talking about him and not read every word of it, could he?
I actually think Glinner probably avoids these threads due to finding them a bit of a buzzkill, not so much because of the posts where he's cursed and criticised at length, but the ones that just shake their heads at what a mess he is.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: DrGreggles on April 04, 2021, 09:25:54 AM
I like mocking the nasty bigot that is cunt gone bananas.
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on April 04, 2021, 09:49:20 AM
I like it when the conversation drifts further into the broader liberal anti-trans issue, but I completely understand the relevance of a UK comedy forum, in the comedy subforum, documenting the strange descent of man inexorably linked to UK comedy. But yeah the real implications of his movement the lives of trans people (like us on this here forum) should not be underestimated, something I don't particularly think is happening here. There's a number of posts claiming to better understand the struggle for trans rights via the conduit of a mad glinner.

On the anti-trans front, I looked at twitter for the first time in a while and them anti-trans been trying to cancel Owen Jones for expressing interest in co-parenting. One of them big terfs got banned it looks like. Think they're losing track of who they're meant to be hating (or pretending to fight for)
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: g0m on April 04, 2021, 10:05:18 AM
Quote from: Polymorphia on April 03, 2021, 11:37:15 PM
I'm willing to agree to disagree on this (really, only with trans people, and I mean that). The last posts of what he's posted on his substack made me feel sick, and honestly, who sees those posts but a few followers and us?

like, speaking as a trans person, it really does me good to see the horrible bigoted things he says challenged. i was a fan of linehan as a kid, and he was kind of a role model for me as an aspiring irish comedy writer growing up, when he followed me on twitter i was super happy etc etc so i am always kind of aware on what he's up to, and if you were to just see things from his bubble's perspective, it'd paint a very bleak picture. seeing actually sensible people react to his stuff sensibly is a big comfort to me. like looking at an eclipse thru a pinhole viewer
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: wrec on April 04, 2021, 03:43:01 PM
As many trans people have pointed out, hate-quoting terf stuff on social media can obviously be counterproductive, amplifying toxicity, attracting "debate" and causing upset. But I think the threads here at least serve a purpose (besides taking the piss) in documenting his horribleness and hypocrisy in detail when he's getting more or less sympathetic coverage in mainstream media. That said I'm certainly aware that my interest is partly from a pro-trans perspective, partly about LOLs at the CGB, and that that's easy from a cis male perspective
Title: Re: Re: Glinner: Arty Morty and the Glinfinite Transness: The Hateful 8th
Post by: RicoMNKN on April 04, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Polymorphia on April 03, 2021, 11:37:15 PM
I just want to say something, and I don't want it to disrupt discussion here. But it does seem weird that cis people here are so obsessed with Graham Linehan even at this point, tracking every move he makes, making claims about where this may have come from. Maybe the reason is evident in my post above (the absurdity of a known comedy writer descending into... this). But it does seem that Linehan's influence is incedibly diminished. Incredibly.

For me, it is more the radicalisation side I find fascinating.  Seeing someone go from not that different to me (albeit a success), to fucking up all the good things in their life just because they were on Twitter too much.

I was watching Room 237 (the documentary about The Shining obsessives) earlier.  I was getting quite taken in by some of their theories, even though they are nonsense when you realise how cherry picked they are.  It made me see how that same sort of thinking can lead to dark places when applied to something with real world consequences.

I can easily see how one could go from where I am now to where he is now, and that's scary.  For example, I have to put blocks on social media, as I recognised their addiction-by-design working on me, and I can also remember times when I'd have been the atheist dickhead to a religious person for no justifiable reason. 

This is why I still have pity for him, even though his behaviour is so horrible.  He's an addict who is drowning in it, and doesn't seem to realise. 

Learning about trans issues has been an interesting side to following this thread, but not my main reason to follow it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on April 04, 2021, 07:16:17 PM
Linehan's career in UK comedy does make it feel like his descent is of unique relevance and inevitably particular interest to this forum. It also feels like he has brought wider issues in through his own behaviour which invite discussion. Online interactions, celebrity psychology, social media dynamics, etc. There is simply a lot to discuss.

I think there are things to take on board and make time to consider regarding Polymorphia's post. I do think waiting on and reporting on his every move is unhealthy and invites suspicion, but regarding helping transpeople and trans rights it strikes me that all this has provoked transpeople and allies to come forward, share their perspectives and that can't be a bad thing with respect of making progress. Gay rights and acceptance were established through a process of demystifying, destigmatising, and overall visibility.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Alberon on April 04, 2021, 09:19:14 PM
Outside of this thread I don't check up on Linehan. Life's too short to spend too long staring into the abyss. I'm mostly but not entirely cis, I think there's a bit of fluidity in us all, but that's for another pro-trans thread.

Watching someone responsible for a slew of good, sometimes really good, comedy self-combust like this is appalling fascinating. Though anytime I start feeling sorry for him he says something particularly nasty that stamps on that feeling.

As long as we keep it here and not on social media, totally avoid detailed discussions of his family life (there are kids involved in this wretched slow motion car wreck), and avoid nosing around his finances I think it's fine.

Most cis people are very ignorant of trans issues, though far less than they were even just a few years ago. It reminds me so much of what gay people went through three or four decades ago. While the situation isn't perfect by a long shot, so much of the hysteria back then has gone.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on June 29, 2021, 12:27:30 PM
Nothing original, but my main objections are that Glinner has done nothing to warrant 9 100-odd page threads and counting. There's a certain irony in any of us claiming that he's a sad, deranged obsessive when that sort of attention is given to him.

Also, although he's best known as a comedy writer (or was, eh chums?), since the threads on him deal purely with his transphobia and general crap life, Comedy Chat is a lousy place for such threads. General Bullshit is far more suited.

Further also, the Glinner threads are becoming more and more concerned with reporting/commenting on particularly crass examples of transphobia in general. See the last sentence of the previous paragraph, and add 'and therefore, a general thread on the topic, targeting Glinner among other transphobes, is far more appropriate and doesn't feel half as petty and obsessive'.

That's all.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 29, 2021, 12:32:21 PM
Counterpoint: contain all the shitty blue-tick brigade transphobia in one thread so posters can avoid it easily
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: dissolute ocelot on June 29, 2021, 12:37:47 PM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 29, 2021, 12:32:21 PM
Counterpoint: contain all the shitty blue-tick brigade transphobia in one thread so posters can avoid it easily
Yeah, I feel bad writing about transphobia in other threads on trans/queer/LGBT+ issues even when it's big news in TERFdom. Most TERFs are a sad irrelevance only of interest because of their other career as writers of comedy, wizard fiction, or articles on The Breakfast Club. Cataloguing Glinner and his ilk should be kept in a place where only the obsessives need to read it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: touchingcloth on June 29, 2021, 12:56:39 PM
Quote from: dissolute ocelot on June 29, 2021, 12:37:47 PM
Yeah, I feel bad writing about transphobia in other threads on trans/queer/LGBT+ issues even when it's big news in TERFdom. Most TERFs are a sad irrelevance only of interest because of their other career as writers of comedy, wizard fiction, or articles on The Breakfast Club. Cataloguing Glinner and his ilk should be kept in a place where only the obsessives need to read it.

That could be a pinned thread, either GB or CC. I avoid the Corbyn/Other threads that are pinned to CC, but the Glinner ones always intermingle with the main threads in CC.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on June 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
there hasn't been a corbyn thread for quite a while
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: touchingcloth on June 29, 2021, 01:38:21 PM
It morphed into the Labour one (I assume), but it was easy enough to ignore because I just mentally filter out the pinned topics which aren't of interest to me.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Tokyo van Ramming on June 29, 2021, 01:44:00 PM
Quote from: chveik on June 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
there hasn't been a corbyn thread for quite a while

Says the fella in Corbyn threads (shit suit etc)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on June 29, 2021, 02:59:08 PM
QuoteThat could be a pinned thread, either GB or CC. I avoid the Corbyn/Other threads that are pinned to CC, but the Glinner ones always intermingle with the main threads in CC.

Sounds a good move to me. And, as said before, I agree that Glinner's a hateful transphobic wanker: but it does sometimes feel like we're becoming fixated in an unhealthy breast tissue manner on him. In some ways, he's the lesser problem, what with being so crashingly unsubtle. It's the likes of Rowling, speaking from a somewhat less hysterical-sounding place, that are the bigger one. Not to mention the many others who aren't so obviously famous/notorious. At the risk of Godwinning myself, it's a bit like focussing on Hitler as the sole enemy while ignoring his High Command and the many troopers doing the real damage.

TL:DR? The problem is bigger than any one person, so treat it accordingly.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 29, 2021, 03:49:27 PM
How is there "too much focus on Glinner" when the threads also cover Rowling and everything else? Glinner has barely been mentioned the last few pages.

Same objections every time. Appreciate the feedback, but I think the threads are good, effective, readable, and kind of important.

(Also, there was a separate thread for Rowling anyway, as her wading in was such a significant moment.)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: mippy on June 29, 2021, 04:42:35 PM
Quote from: Kryton on July 01, 2020, 08:48:02 PM
Yeah he's been a prick no doubt - But isn't he just a guy with outdated views hammering shit out, messing his life up? I know it's previously been at other people's expense, but right now... I dunno? Mercy?

Or am I just being a soft touch?

I might be a slight hypocrite because I fucking LOL'd (genuinely) when Katie Hopkins got ejected from Twitter, but Hopkins seems to revel in it and make a career out of it and every living pore on her body seems to emit genuine evil, whereas Glinner just seems like some awkward Uncle making terrible social decisions which has resulted in him desperately fumbling about and falling from grace into a clammy self-fulfilled hole.

--

On another note - It reminds me of another 'internet famous person' called Christian Weston Chandler now Christine, who is the subject of .... a fucking rabbit hole of bizarre behaviour, now (or was) the target of trolls worldwide. CWC is actually probably one living example of how the internet has probably shaped one's character and destiny.

For those unaware CWC is... An odd American person with little or no self-awareness, autistic, probably low levels of social intelligence (but fairly bright in other aspects) and has been the subject of ridicule for over a decade. CWC did a LOT to bring it onto himself (back when she was a bloke) - by making hugely venomous remarks about women, gays, trans people and all sorts of other shit. Trying to run someone over with their car, accidentally burning his own house down, macing shop employees and being banned from various gaming stores, comic conventions and all sorts of stuff. Inserting a broken Sonichu medallion up his arsehole to the support of his 'fans'. Fucking a blow up dummy. A prostitute. Trying to trick women into sex, all from his seedy weird room filled with toys and comic book posters. I speak in the 'he' terms as this was all before he transitioned. And at one point CWC simply thought 'transitioning' was dragging a sharp knife across his.... bits. And so he did. On camera.

At one point it must have clicked that the trolls were in serious danger of being complicit in something terrible. As he started receiving monetary donations after begging online, many of the trolls telling him to 'go seek medical assistance for the knife wound between your balls and anus'. Some trolls defended him from other trolls, whilst simultaneously tricking him into other weird shit.

It's a fucking rollercoaster.

Also CWC tried to combine Sonic the Hedgehog and Pikachu together to form his own 'copyrighted' comic character called Sonichu, which was how CWC originally became infamous. Trolls have been at CWC for decades now, taunting her with false Nintendo interviews and making her drive several states over for no reason... it's ... just an odd read.

Seriously CWC's  journey is absolutely is harrowing. Probably one of the strangest things I've read online with morbid fascination.

--

Proper gone off track there. I was once going to make a post on here about CWC, but it's hard to have a discussion without it seeming you're mocking someone, even if parts of their tragic life are genuinely amusing. And vice versa, you can be the biggest cunt and wreck everything, but that's ultimately quite tragic isn't it?


--

EDIT: Of course I'm comparing apples and oranges there, I know Glinner and CWC aren't comparable, but it's more to do with observing all this in real time.

I've tried reading up on CWC but it just made me feel immensely uncomfortable. ForeverKailyn was the beauty community equivalent - a woman with (I think) learning disabilities who posted very amateurish videos that got trolled to fuck, to the point that someone sent her "body spray" in the post that was actually pee, and then stories of her racist/abusive behaviour surfaced, and it all felt just extremely unentertaining.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on June 30, 2021, 12:59:55 AM
Oh golly. I used to follow the CWC stuff but it rapidly got creepy. All those sex videos. Something something staring into the abyss.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Video Game Fan 2000 on June 30, 2021, 03:13:27 AM
In my day we didn't have lolcows, we had Ulillillia and almost everyone was nice to him and cheered at every minor improvement in his life.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: The Ombudsman on June 30, 2021, 08:15:25 AM
Ulillillia!

Saw a doc on him, seemed a nice chap.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: MoreauVasz on June 30, 2021, 08:20:19 AM
Another Glinner thread?

Why not just create a new sub-forum devoted to him and have done with it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on June 30, 2021, 10:33:30 AM
Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on June 30, 2021, 03:13:27 AM
In my day we didn't have lolcows, we had Ulillillia and almost everyone was nice to him and cheered at every minor improvement in his life.
I don't know much about him, but apparently he was a genuinely nice and harmless bloke, just a bit mad.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on June 30, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Quote from: MoreauVasz on June 30, 2021, 08:20:19 AM
Another Glinner thread?

Why not just create a new sub-forum devoted to him and have done with it.

glinn'd and bomb'd
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Captain Z on June 30, 2021, 01:10:57 PM
I think Glinner has been a fascinating case study for various reasons, but the idea that we should have more threads or even a pinned topic simply to highlight and repost hateful crap against trans people is almost as bananas as the big man himself.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 30, 2021, 01:24:56 PM
Quote from: MoreauVasz on June 30, 2021, 08:20:19 AM
Another Glinner thread?

Why not just create a new sub-forum devoted to him and have done with it.

It's not actually about Glinner, it's about pushy posters dragging discussions off topic with the exact same objections that have already been made tons of times.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on June 30, 2021, 05:35:24 PM
QuoteI think Glinner has been a fascinating case study for various reasons, but the idea that we should have more threads or even a pinned topic simply to highlight and repost hateful crap against trans people is almost as bananas as the big man himself.

This. Exactly this.

Barry, you've just said yourself that it's not just about Glinner. I accept that. But with multiple threads all on the same topic and every one bearing his name, it seems to have become more about madhair seeing how witty he can be. In some ways, to me at least, it feels a bit like trivialising the issue.

Why not just consolidate this all into one mega-thread, with a less Glinner-centric title?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 30, 2021, 05:47:42 PM
I don't want to, and see no reason for it.

madhair's titles are great, and his summary is ace too; I'd like us to try and flesh that out a bit with stuff like the Glinner cake, and #glinnerisanally or the time he invited JK Rowling to make a last-minute appearance on his YouTube podcast, then said she hadn't turned up because "she's probably out doing her Xmas shopping."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on June 30, 2021, 05:53:20 PM
It's actually weird how people outside this site enjoy the threads a lot more than a lot of the regulars here: https://mobile.twitter.com/joss_prior/status/1385166612924350466

Joss promoted it again a week or two ago, and Katy Motgomerie retweeted it, so some of the most effective and brilliant trans activists actually seem to enjoy the threads for what they are, rather than seeing them as "trivialising the issue."
Title: Re: Glin's Slide No. 9: TransIXclusionary
Post by: Janie Jones on July 23, 2021, 12:34:12 AM
Do you all think this is helping? Do you think this is helping trans people feel safer, this obsessing over Glinner's skin/clothing/eyes/tremor etc?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on July 23, 2021, 01:42:41 AM
Quote from: Janie Jones on July 23, 2021, 12:34:12 AM
Do you all think this is helping? Do you think this is helping trans people feel safer, this obsessing over Glinner's skin/clothing/eyes/tremor etc?
It's funny, at least.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on July 23, 2021, 02:05:35 AM
also increasing awareness of phimosis

edit lmao just realised that's my post
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on July 23, 2021, 02:07:42 AM
literal demands to speak to the manager going on here
Title: Re: Glin's Slide No. 9: TransIXclusionary
Post by: Ferris on July 23, 2021, 02:13:23 AM
Quote from: Janie Jones on July 23, 2021, 12:34:12 AM
Do you all think this is helping? Do you think this is helping trans people feel safer, this obsessing over Glinner's skin/clothing/eyes/tremor etc?

Counterpoint - is it harming trans people?

I'm not following the main thread because I just don't care what the loopy old cunt is up to, but I don't think having a pop at him for his mad hair or whatever is a particularly toxic thing to do. You could even argue it is apposite considering people's appearances are what he bases a lot of his important journalism on.
Title: Re: Glin's Slide No. 9: TransIXclusionary
Post by: chveik on July 23, 2021, 02:19:36 AM
Quote from: Janie Jones on July 23, 2021, 12:34:12 AM
Do you all think this is helping? Do you think this is helping trans people feel safer, this obsessing over Glinner's skin/clothing/eyes/tremor etc?

i really want to say yes
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on July 23, 2021, 02:28:42 AM
Quote from: Janie Jones on July 23, 2021, 12:34:12 AM
Do you all think this is helping? Do you think this is helping trans people feel safer, this obsessing over Glinner's skin/clothing/eyes/tremor etc?

That's a lofty standard to hold a comedy discussion forum to...

To my great surprise tho, it seems it might be?

Quote from: https://mobile.twitter.com/joss_prior/status/1404752349281800194A fair, and reserved, reminder/introduction to whats happened to Graham Linehan.

Rather than regurgitate his drivel on here... he would really hate it if people saw a whole forum having an actual laugh and indulging in comedy, at his expense...

https://cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/inde...

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on July 23, 2021, 02:35:25 AM
lol that's great
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 07:47:08 AM
Another thread started in CC. Ding ding! Round 11 for the two Ahabs.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on August 07, 2021, 11:50:20 AM
i bet there would be some whining too if there were multiple threads about terf shit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Thursday on August 07, 2021, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 07:47:08 AM
Another thread started in CC. Ding ding! Round 11 for the two Ahabs.

You see what happens is, when a thread approaches 100 pages, a new thread is started because longer threads can cause issues with the site. Hope that clears things up.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on August 07, 2021, 12:25:56 PM
Quote from: chveik on August 07, 2021, 11:50:20 AM
i bet there would be some whining too if there were multiple threads about terf shit.
At least all the TERF shit can be contained in the Glinner threads.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on August 07, 2021, 12:49:57 PM
yeah that's my point
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on August 07, 2021, 01:29:01 PM
Why isn't there a J.K. Rowling thread anymore? Pure misogyny, that's why.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: DrGreggles on August 07, 2021, 01:32:05 PM
J.K. Rowling
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: pigamus on August 07, 2021, 01:37:12 PM
Does he actually call her that or does he call her Joanne? I bet he calls her Joanne.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: FredNurke on August 07, 2021, 04:17:02 PM
It doesn't really matter what he calls her; she isn't going to answer.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 04:38:35 PM
QuoteYou see what happens is, when a thread approaches 100 pages, a new thread is started because longer threads can cause issues with the site. Hope that clears things up.

You see what happens is, when 9 threads already have approached 100 pages, maybe some people are getting alarmingly obsessive over the subject and need to stop being quite so fanatical. Hope that clears things up.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 07, 2021, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 04:38:35 PM
You see what happens is, when 9 threads already have approached 100 pages, maybe some people are getting alarmingly obsessive over the subject and need to stop being quite so fanatical. Hope that clears things up.

I guess some people might call me fanatical about subjects such as the Labour Party, cricket, beer, ambient music, pubs. Who arbitrates obsession, as such? When it comes to topics of forum discussion, anyway...

I don't see an actual obsessive such as FORMER BALD POSTER DIGESTIVE TRACT PROBLEMS who posted 1 in every 4 posts on Brexit threads also lasting literally years.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on August 07, 2021, 05:27:20 PM
Quote from: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 04:38:35 PMYou see what happens is, when 9 threads already have approached 100 pages, maybe some people are getting alarmingly obsessive over the subject and need to stop being quite so fanatical. Hope that clears things up.

nah it's good
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Goldentony on August 07, 2021, 05:29:48 PM
AM OBSESSED, BAYBEH!! WOOOOOOOOOO
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Goldentony on August 07, 2021, 05:32:09 PM
boys, ive got a fever
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phes on August 07, 2021, 05:34:09 PM
Yeh it's fascinating, and it's the horrible gift that just keeps giving. If Linehan was going in circles it would be dead as a doornail by now. See the collapse in interest in Gervais.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Goldentony on August 07, 2021, 05:34:51 PM
Quote from: Goldentony on August 07, 2021, 05:32:09 PM
boys, ive got a fever

A FEVER FOR THREADS
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on August 07, 2021, 07:34:13 PM
Quote from: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 04:38:35 PM
You see what happens is, when 9 threads already have approached 100 pages, maybe some people are getting alarmingly obsessive over the subject and need to stop being quite so fanatical. Hope that clears things up.
Meh, maybe. I've had Glinner invade my dreams twice since I started reading the threads but I can't stay away. Perhaps it's our own shitty form of "activism", pointing at this one arsehole and going oh my god look what he's done now, in lieu of something more constructive. But on the other hand, maybe it would be worse to just not talk about blue tick transphobia and pretend it doesn't exist, which is a luxury cis people have.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Goldentony on August 07, 2021, 07:39:14 PM
I think grimacing at the idea of the thread every few months, hunched over like Magnus Ver Magnusson lifting an Atlas Stone, has achieved loads. Moreso than scientists doctors architects poets etc could ever hope.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 08:30:43 PM
Well, it's become patently clear that this thread is a good place for people like me to just let off a little steam every now and then. You know what? I think that Glinner's an appalling bigot too. Only a moron wouldn't.

Just feel that excessive frothing is taking place over a mole hill that's been made into a mountain. Oh, and that some people are becoming almost as pettily destructive as he is. But that's just my opinion. Yours may differ.

Or maybe I'm just fed up of seeing thread after thread on such a limited subject. Or a combination of the above.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on August 07, 2021, 08:35:46 PM
It's not just about him though, it's become a general thread about the TERF movement in the UK.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Flouncer on August 07, 2021, 08:46:47 PM
Yeah, if it was purely about Glinner I might agree that it was a bit morbid, but it's a lot more wide-ranging than that. I think the best thing about that thread is that there are several trans posters who regularly post in there - it gives them an opportunity to vent and say their piece in a safe, supportive environment, and we get the benefit of being able to read their perspectives (which are often really insightful and an engaging read).

In the past I've had to give the thread a swerve for a while because it can get a bit depressing reading all the hateful TERF shit, which has at times had a pretty deleterious effect on me - I don't know how transpeople deal with it to be honest - but that stuff is generally balanced out by the insightful comments and humour.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on August 07, 2021, 08:49:08 PM
Quote from: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 08:30:43 PM
Or maybe I'm just fed up of seeing thread after thread on such a limited subject. Or a combination of the above.

It's only one active thread at any given time. If we counted both Corbyn and Kieth threads as generic 'labour' threads, which they sort-of are, then I think we'd be seeing similar numbers over the same timespan.

"there's a busy thread about a subject I don't like" does seem like a bit of a small complaint really.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: stonkers on August 07, 2021, 09:45:40 PM
The Glinner threads over the past 1-2 years have made me a lot more aware of trans issues than I think I would have been otherwise. Good work Graham!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on August 07, 2021, 10:37:32 PM
Quote from: pigamus on August 07, 2021, 01:37:12 PM
Does he actually call her that or does he call her Joanne? I bet he calls her Joanne.
i bet he doesn't even know that's her name. I mean he can't even pronounce her surname properly
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: evilcommiedictator on August 07, 2021, 10:54:47 PM
J K Ralph
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 07, 2021, 11:34:17 PM
Quotesome people are becoming almost as pettily destructive as he is

I think we will generously forgive that as an enthusiastic overstatement.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 07, 2021, 11:36:15 PM
Regarding the post on the last page about dreaming of Glinner, I think that's a decent tidemark on one's sanity at any given moment, aye.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: popcorn on August 07, 2021, 11:42:30 PM
Do you think Glinner dreams of CaB?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on August 07, 2021, 11:56:23 PM
Quote from: popcorn on August 07, 2021, 11:42:30 PM
Do you think Glinner dreams of CaB?

Philip K Dick considers rewrite.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phantom_power on August 08, 2021, 11:35:28 AM
Quote from: stonkers on August 07, 2021, 09:45:40 PM
The Glinner threads over the past 1-2 years have made me a lot more aware of trans issues than I think I would have been otherwise. Good work Graham!

It could be argued that he does more for the pro trans cause than many others, He certainly isn't converting anyone who isn't already a rabid cunt to his cause and he is probably turning a few soft TERFs away from the movement with his obvious shittiness. and like you say many sensible people will see past his bigotry and find some interesting information in the replies and responses to him and his cavalry of cunts
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on August 08, 2021, 11:42:05 AM
I've never been a TERF or particularly anti-trans - I was one of the people who supported adding a T to the LGB Society I was in as a student - but twats like Glinner and the Mumsnet FWR crowd have made me even more pro-trans rights. That and having trans friends and actually getting to know them and hearing about their lives. So thanks, Graham, a winnar is yuo.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on August 08, 2021, 11:53:05 AM
Quote from: stonkers on August 07, 2021, 09:45:40 PM
The Glinner threads over the past 1-2 years have made me a lot more aware of trans issues than I think I would have been otherwise. Good work Graham!

Worth remembering how much money was raised by #thanksgraham entirely to spite him. https://medium.com/@paws.conde/graham-linehan-protector-of-trans-kids-494c1614cf99

Quote$340,000 for charity and a fifty-seven hour long sustained surge of positivity and celebration of trans people, all prompted by the bigoted actions of one retired comedy writer.

I still stand by the threads :-) there's a lot of support for trans people there, and their own perspectives and experiences, and some great fact-checking that goes into Linehan's wildly deluded propaganda. And funny stuff.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: buttgammon on August 08, 2021, 04:16:19 PM
Like a lot of people, I've found these threads really informative. I was never a transphobe thankfully, but those issues weren't exactly on my radar either. My morbid interest in Linehan as a comedy fan has now turned into what I hope is a genuine consciousness about the issue, and the discussion on those threads has been a big part in developing that.
Title: Re: GLINTENDO GC: Bananac*nt Cis Tory X: You can't spell MUMSNET without TEN
Post by: Utter Shit on September 04, 2021, 08:55:41 AM
I'm sure this has been discussed a million times before and there are reasons why I'm wrong, but just in case...is there an argument that this thread could be moved to General Bullshit, or even a new sub-forum specifically for Glinner stuff so that it doesn't dominate whatever forum it is in?

It's a bit depressing that if you're on the main forum index, this thread is almost always the one shown as the last posted in, preventing those browsing the main page from seeing at a glance whatever else interesting might be being talked about. It's long since morphed into an area that has nothing to do with comedy.
Title: Re: GLINTENDO GC: Bananac*nt Cis Tory X: You can't spell MUMSNET without TEN
Post by: chveik on September 04, 2021, 10:45:20 AM
Quote from: Utter Shit on September 04, 2021, 08:55:41 AM
a new sub-forum specifically for Glinner stuff so that it doesn't dominate whatever forum it is in?

a subforum for one thread? don't be an idiot
Title: Re: GLINTENDO GC: Bananac*nt Cis Tory X: You can't spell MUMSNET without TEN
Post by: Sonny_Jim on September 04, 2021, 10:57:05 AM
Maybe as a 'mark of respect' to Glinners slide from Twitter King TV funny man to Full Time Hate Monger we could reflect this by moving the next thread to General Bullshit.
Title: Re: GLINTENDO GC: Bananac*nt Cis Tory X: You can't spell MUMSNET without TEN
Post by: Utter Shit on September 04, 2021, 11:20:47 AM
Quote from: chveik on September 04, 2021, 10:45:20 AM
a subforum for one thread? don't be an idiot

Don't see why not - whichever forum this thread is in, it dominates the 'last post in' section of the main index page at the expense of every other topic in that forum. It's not the biggest deal in the world or anything, it's only an extra click to see the full list of comedy topics after all. But personally I tend to click on the main page first and see what people are chatting about across the forum, and in the comedy forum it's almost always this thread.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on September 04, 2021, 11:27:09 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfLkzQw0/upload-2021-09-04-11-26-40-253.jpg)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Utter Shit on September 04, 2021, 11:34:18 AM
Apologies, I have never seen this thread before despite it having 600-odd posts. Clearly it's been discussed at length haha.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on September 04, 2021, 01:59:27 PM
Quote from: Catalogue Trousers on August 07, 2021, 08:30:43 PM
Just feel that excessive frothing is taking place over a mole hill that's been made into a mountain.

The mountainous Moley.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 05, 2021, 06:08:38 PM
Can we stop posting about fucking Mumsnet in that thread? Start something in GB if you want to obsessively document every idiot who posts on there.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on September 05, 2021, 06:11:13 PM
that i can get behind.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 06, 2021, 10:14:10 AM
Quote from: Famous Mortimer on September 05, 2021, 06:08:38 PM
Can we stop posting about fucking Mumsnet in that thread? Start something in GB if you want to obsessively document every idiot who posts on there.
Why though? He posts there.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dr Rock on September 06, 2021, 10:31:46 AM
It's the UK's top nest of terves spot.

What's the collective noun for terfs? A shart of terves?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on September 06, 2021, 10:32:52 AM
A hatred of terfs?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dr Rock on September 06, 2021, 10:34:48 AM
A hatebus of terfs?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chollis on September 06, 2021, 10:39:53 AM
coven
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on September 06, 2021, 11:20:02 AM
Nahhh, don't let them appropriate witchcraft. I know some witches and they're very nice (and trans-friendly).
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: daf on September 06, 2021, 11:47:37 AM
Quote from: Dr Rock on September 06, 2021, 10:31:46 AM
What's the collective noun for terfs?

A Clump or Clod?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on September 06, 2021, 12:03:29 PM
A dogpile of terfs.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: ImmaculateClump on September 06, 2021, 12:48:27 PM
Quote from: daf on September 06, 2021, 11:47:37 AM
A Clump or Clod?

clod please.
A soddery?

Could call them "Bananadrama", the three of them on his podcast

A midnight grand prix?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on September 06, 2021, 01:01:13 PM
Must admit, I'm amazed that people go as far as posting there. The amount of advertising is unreal, but actually posting on "Prosecco Stormfront" just ensures its continued success and prominence.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on September 06, 2021, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on September 06, 2021, 01:01:13 PM
Must admit, I'm amazed that people go as far as posting there. The amount of advertising is unreal, but actually posting on "Prosecco Stormfront" just ensures its continued success and prominence.

One could argue that the constant Glin watch gives him extra exposure and prominence too though. It's all part of the same morbid merry-go-round.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on September 06, 2021, 01:06:29 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on September 06, 2021, 01:03:40 PM
One could argue that the constant Glin watch gives him extra exposure and prominence too though. It's all part of the same morbid merry-go-round.

nah, disagree. the cab glinner threads have even been flagged up by prominent trans activists as a useful resource (and yes I am a tiny bit proud of it, lol, not that i'm the one contributing much to them)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on September 06, 2021, 01:10:34 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on September 06, 2021, 01:03:40 PM
One could argue that the constant Glin watch gives him extra exposure and prominence too though. It's all part of the same morbid merry-go-round.

But what to do, bgmnts, what to do?  Following that line we could adopt the rule never to speak of anything that is not both good and beautiful (and clever).  But life would be duller and more ignorant for it.  I never visit MN, I think I've only been there once, ever, when I was pointed at it by a conversation here.  Took me about 45 seconds to realise it was not an interesting place at all.  Never went back.  It's like reading one of the UKs godawful papers, why would one do it if one had the choice?

The glinner threads - their fucking titles - have given me enormous pleasure, obvs. 
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: bgmnts on September 06, 2021, 01:12:03 PM
Quote from: Buelligan on September 06, 2021, 01:10:34 PM
But what to do, bgmnts, what to do?  Following that line we could adopt the rule never to speak of anything that is not both good and beautiful (and clever).  But life would be duller and more ignorant for it.  I never visit MN, I think I've only been there once, ever, when I was pointed at it by a conversation here.  Took me about 45 seconds to realise it was not an interesting place at all.  Never went back.  It's like reading one of the UKs godawful papers, why would one do it if one had the choice?

The glinner threads - their fucking titles - have given me enormous pleasure.

The titles are incredible, I will say.

Quote from: madhair60 on September 06, 2021, 01:06:29 PM
nah, disagree. the cab glinner threads have even been flagged up by prominent trans activists as a useful resource (and yes I am a tiny bit proud of it, lol, not that i'm the one contributing much to them)

Yeah that's fair I suppose.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: MojoJojo on September 06, 2021, 01:56:00 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on September 06, 2021, 01:01:13 PM
Must admit, I'm amazed that people go as far as posting there. The amount of advertising is unreal, but actually posting on "Prosecco Stormfront" just ensures its continued success and prominence.

In it's defence, it is big and very busy, so after you've skipped the trans stuff, and the rich person dilemma stuff, there is still some interesting things to read. Some heartening threads with people talking about their cancer, or escaping domestic abuse.

I think I've posted there a couple of times, can't remember about what, and I stopped reading a couple of years ago. My impression is it's got a lot worse on the trans stuff, but that might just be I'm less able to over look it now.

Oh, being a parent might make a difference too.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: imitationleather on September 06, 2021, 02:32:41 PM
I'm always totally stumped whenever I go on MumsNet because I find it impossible to navigate.

Maybe if I ever have a child I'll understand how to read it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 06, 2021, 02:46:47 PM
Quote from: imitationleather on September 06, 2021, 02:32:41 PM
Maybe if I ever have a child I'll understand how to read it.

Lol
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Better Midlands on September 06, 2021, 03:06:51 PM
Quote from: MojoJojo on September 06, 2021, 01:56:00 PM
In it's defence, it is big and very busy, so after you've skipped the trans stuff, and the rich person dilemma stuff, there is still some interesting things to read. Some heartening threads with people talking about their cancer, or escaping domestic abuse.

I think it's an interesting place too, outside of Twitter it's probably the biggest site in the UK where people can post anonymously so can be interesting for gauging the nation's (mainly female) opinion.

There's a huge amount of trolling, threads/posts deleted by the minute - moderating it must be a nightmare.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Paul Calf on September 06, 2021, 03:10:16 PM
Quote from: imitationleather on September 06, 2021, 02:32:41 PM
I'm always totally stumped whenever I go on MumsNet because I find it impossible to navigate.

Maybe if I ever have a child I'll understand how to read it.


They say you never understand the Mumsnet Document Object Model until you've got held a child of your own in your arms.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on September 06, 2021, 03:13:00 PM
Quote from: Better Midlands on September 06, 2021, 03:06:51 PM
I think it's an interesting place too, outside of Twitter it's probably the biggest site in the UK where people can post anonymously so can be interesting for gauging the nation's (mainly female) opinion.

There's a huge amount of trolling, threads/posts deleted by the minute - moderating it must be a nightmare.

Is intersting, as you say.  The Pistonheads forums are similar, all be it the male equivlent.   
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cuellar on September 06, 2021, 03:55:39 PM
It's the UK's biggest TERF section, I understand.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 06, 2021, 04:50:05 PM
Feminism and Women's Rights is TERF central. They've got a sub forum for sex and gender debate, but it gets EVERYWHERE. AIBU always has threads about pronouns and how woke[nb]on Mumsnet, wokeness is about being pro-trans rather than black social consciousness[/nb] the youth of today are.

It's actually had invasions from Pistonheads. ARRSE as well, spamming them with rape porn and pictures of battered women, which is not doing much to counter the idea that the military is full of violent rapists.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on September 06, 2021, 04:57:15 PM
Saw someone describing a very simple graph they were too dim to understand as 'woke' earlier.

(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/1630942682578-png.218192/)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 06, 2021, 05:01:03 PM
I had no idea maths was actually communist brainwashing.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dr Rock on September 06, 2021, 05:05:35 PM
'We didn't get anything without bloody hard work' yes you did, you got a council house. A house!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 06, 2021, 05:19:13 PM
Absolutely awful horrific people.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Better Midlands on September 06, 2021, 05:20:03 PM
Quote from: Kankurette on September 06, 2021, 04:50:05 PM
AIBU always has threads about pronouns and how woke[1] the youth of today are.

When FWR invade AIBU it's always a loaded question like "AIBU to think that a man shouldn't be able to go in a spa and stick his penis in a small female child's face?"

When the vote is (obviously) in their favour they then use that to say that 98% of women in the UK don't want transwomen in single sex spaces.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Video Game Fan 2000 on September 06, 2021, 05:29:06 PM
Quote from: Kankurette on September 06, 2021, 05:01:03 PM
I had no idea maths was actually communist brainwashing.

Well, not yet.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on September 06, 2021, 05:33:16 PM
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 06, 2021, 04:57:15 PM
Saw someone describing a very simple graph they were too dim to understand as 'woke' earlier.


Woke graphs, fucking hell 😂 people really will just use their stupid, popular buzzwords for everything.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: jamiefairlie on September 06, 2021, 05:34:32 PM
You can prove anything with facts.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Goldentony on September 06, 2021, 06:24:43 PM
that woke graphs thing has finished me
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: gilbertharding on September 06, 2021, 06:47:45 PM
That graph vs wokeness... I wonder if the blue line is average personal earnings, or average household income. Because they used to calculate mortgage affordability (and therefore the market price of a house) on the basis that only one person (probably the husband) would be working. I mean, that would be the beginnings of a point, if Mr Woke was informed enough to make it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on September 06, 2021, 06:49:38 PM
Martin Milne is now the most famous paedophile on the internet. Congratulations Martin
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on September 06, 2021, 06:50:38 PM
 
Quote from: gilbertharding on September 06, 2021, 06:47:45 PM
I mean, that would be the beginnings of a point, if Mr Woke was informed enough to make it.
I think you'd need most households to be 20 person polycules to care.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 06, 2021, 06:56:52 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on September 06, 2021, 05:33:16 PM
Woke graphs, fucking hell 😂 people really will just use their stupid, popular buzzwords for everything.
Things that are 'woke', according to various fuckwits on the internet:
- Graphs
- Thinking trans women are women
- Pen Farthing's fan club, i.e. people who think dogs and cats should be airlifted out of Afghanistan ahead of people, which is pretty ironic given that these types tend to be the sort of people who would much rather save animals than refugees because herp derp they're all terrorists anyway
- Adverts with black people in
- Thinking G-d Save the Queen is a dirge
- History, unless it says that the British Empire was Good, Actually
- Getting angry and shouting at people for disagreeing with your opinions
- Pronouns, generally
- Sir Keith
- Gareth Southgate
- Asking people not to use racist slurs
- Feminism
- The majority of kids' books
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 06, 2021, 07:20:06 PM
Quote from: Kankurette on September 06, 2021, 10:14:10 AM
Why though? He posts there.
But so much of it is just "look at this stupid opinion from someone", and has nothing to do with Glinner.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: jamiefairlie on September 06, 2021, 07:42:24 PM
Quote from: Kankurette on September 06, 2021, 06:56:52 PM
Things that are 'woke', according to various fuckwits on the internet:
- Graphs
- Thinking trans women are women
- Pen Farthing's fan club, i.e. people who think dogs and cats should be airlifted out of Afghanistan ahead of people, which is pretty ironic given that these types tend to be the sort of people who would much rather save animals than refugees because herp derp they're all terrorists anyway
- Adverts with black people in
- Thinking G-d Save the Queen is a dirge
- History, unless it says that the British Empire was Good, Actually
- Getting angry and shouting at people for disagreeing with your opinions
- Pronouns, generally
- Sir Keith
- Gareth Southgate
- Asking people not to use racist slurs
- Feminism
- The majority of kids' books

For the sake of accuracy, Gareth Southgate is of course a wank, not a woke.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Uncle TechTip on September 06, 2021, 07:57:16 PM
Quote from: Barry Admin on September 06, 2021, 05:33:16 PM
Woke graphs, fucking hell 😂 people really will just use their stupid, popular buzzwords for everything.

Maybe it was meant to be "wonky graph"?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on September 06, 2021, 09:13:38 PM
Q. 1.  Explain the relationship between woke and rage using a line graph. (10 points)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phantom_power on September 06, 2021, 09:44:04 PM
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 06, 2021, 04:57:15 PM
Saw someone describing a very simple graph they were too dim to understand as 'woke' earlier.

(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/1630942682578-png.218192/)


Love the petty "learn to spell" at the end, though I am struggling to see what he spelt wrong
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Better Midlands on September 06, 2021, 10:12:26 PM
Quote from: phantom_power on September 06, 2021, 09:44:04 PM
Love the petty "learn to spell" at the end, though I am struggling to see what he spelt wrong

The person apparently had a deliberate misspelling in his bio that was obviously done as a joke.


Edit

(https://i.imgur.com/fPFdIHK.jpg)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on September 06, 2021, 10:14:27 PM
Quote from: phantom_power on September 06, 2021, 09:44:04 PM
Love the petty "learn to spell" at the end, though I am struggling to see what he spelt wrong

That exchange is pretty funny in itself.

(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/1630942887036-png.218193/)

(https://www.dogsonacid.com/attachments/1630942908437-png.218194/)

https://twitter.com/marvelbiz/status/1434828141298655234

ah sorry I see BM has beaten me to it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Better Midlands on September 06, 2021, 10:21:47 PM
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 06, 2021, 10:14:27 PM
ah sorry I see BM has beaten me to it.

I sneaked in a crafty edit, you beat me to the bio pic.

I see this must have gone viral, screenshots just came up on my feed from someone else with 5000+ likes
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phantom_power on September 07, 2021, 09:34:57 AM
What a dopey cunt
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 08, 2021, 05:18:53 PM
saying it here so as not be starting any discourse but i just wanna say i'm not mad about the trend of jumping on rando twitter accounts, probing them for any similarity to glinner no matter how minor, and then taking them to be him with full certainty

think it makes cab come off as uncomfortably obsessive
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: George Oscar Bluth II on September 08, 2021, 05:36:08 PM
I think this might be the first time an account highlighted in the thread might not actually be him to be fair?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 08, 2021, 05:39:12 PM
sure, but i don't much like the thought of it being a continuing thing; trawling miserable bigot cunt accounts till you find the golden banana
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 08, 2021, 05:39:57 PM
Quotethink it makes cab come off as uncomfortably obsessive

Agree. This is not a war and there doesn't need to be footsoldiers.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on September 08, 2021, 05:50:57 PM
edit: i'm being a cunt, leaving it. sorry
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 08, 2021, 06:04:09 PM
i'm totally unbothered about shitting on cunts online i'm talking more about how useful (for trans people) and healthy it is on our end
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cuellar on September 08, 2021, 06:07:44 PM
Agreed

Cast-iron banana socks or bust
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: The Mollusk on September 08, 2021, 06:15:48 PM
Isn't pouncing on random accounts waving the ALLY banner and spouting unnecessarily accusatory stuff at people how Glinner got started? It's not a good look.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on September 08, 2021, 06:27:30 PM
edit: i'm being a cunt, leaving it. sorry
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on September 08, 2021, 06:31:59 PM
There was that James Barry account that really seemed like him at first but wasnt nearly bananas enough. Still going that one.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Better Midlands on September 08, 2021, 06:36:48 PM
Quote from: The Mollusk on September 08, 2021, 06:15:48 PM
Isn't pouncing on random accounts waving the ALLY banner and spouting unnecessarily accusatory stuff at people how Glinner got started? It's not a good look.

What's interesting about this account is that it knew what (CAB would think?) a Glinner account should look like, it wasn't random.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: itsfredtitmus on September 08, 2021, 06:40:03 PM
can we stop talking about this guy
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Catalogue Trousers on September 10, 2021, 01:20:03 AM
Seconded
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: imitationleather on September 10, 2021, 01:29:59 AM
Nah.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ferris on September 10, 2021, 01:55:38 AM
Yeah absolutely, fill yer boots with not talking about him. Other people might carry on though. Bloody "free society".
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 10, 2021, 01:38:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Yz2vgZl.png)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on September 16, 2021, 08:34:16 AM
I know all you Bananacunt fans likes your 100- page threads ( sometimes cheating, and ending the thread at page 98, oooh, that always niggles me), but maybe padding them out by posting posts which literally say " Glinner smells!" Is possibly not the best way to go. Saying the same thing about Lawrence Fox is justifiable, because he really does look like he reeks, but this is not a good look.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on September 16, 2021, 08:44:09 AM
You've posted more words about his stink in your complaint about it than there were in the original thread
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on September 16, 2021, 08:45:04 AM
Ah, but only one post, you see. Aaaaaaaaaah.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on September 16, 2021, 08:45:43 AM
tbf he probably does honk
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on September 16, 2021, 08:50:26 AM
God yeah.  Guarantee, if you forced a proboscis into the folds there would be resident evil.  Not even up for debate chum.

This will (probably) be my only post on this discussion point.  Save planet.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Flouncer on September 16, 2021, 09:51:10 AM
Quote from: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on September 16, 2021, 08:34:16 AMthis is not a good look.

Lisa JAMC there, making a bold bid to rival Glinner himself in the lack-of-self-awareness stakes.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: buttgammon on September 16, 2021, 09:57:10 AM
Those threads have been genuinely informative for me, a cis person. I joined in to rubberneck but came out of them aware of things I never previously understood. We used to have long threads talking about women's appearances, sometimes crossing the line into outright creepiness and now we have long threads talking about trans rights; this is a good thing.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Buelligan on September 16, 2021, 09:59:08 AM
Bloody hell, I'm only going to give you a kiss now.  Lovely stuff.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on September 16, 2021, 10:19:01 AM
Quote from: Flouncer on September 16, 2021, 09:51:10 AM
Lisa JAMC there, making a bold bid to rival Glinner himself in the lack-of-self-awareness stakes.

An unnecessary ( and slightly dated) comment, there. It's nice to see you making comments in defence of free speech though, even if the comments what you is defending amount to " Graham Linehan smells ( probably)."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on September 16, 2021, 10:55:02 AM
Q: I say I say I say, how does Graham Linehan smell!?

A: excrement. human excrement.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JamesTC on September 16, 2021, 11:27:38 AM
He smells of cum and we'll hear no more about it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on September 16, 2021, 12:07:56 PM
I assume this is about my most recent post abut how Glinner looks like he smells. I'm sorry you didn't like it, Lisa, but I am happy to hear that the second part of the same post, about how Laurence Fox looks like he smells, met with your approval and was pretty much fine.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: pigamus on September 16, 2021, 12:14:22 PM
Perhaps we should have a woman who smells for balance. I'm sure Julie Burchill reeks of fags.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sonny_Jim on September 16, 2021, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: buttgammon on September 16, 2021, 09:57:10 AM
I joined in to rubberneck but came out of them aware of things I never previously understood.
I found CaB because Adam Buxton named dropped it on one of his podcasts, inevitably got sucked into the GlinnerSaga and now I'm posting about the colours of international crisp packets.

Slippery slope, innit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Icehaven on September 16, 2021, 01:12:03 PM
Quote from: Sonny_Jim on September 16, 2021, 12:33:21 PM
I found CaB because Adam Buxton named dropped it on one of his podcasts, inevitably got sucked into the GlinnerSaga and now I'm posting about the colours of international crisp packets.

Slippery slope, innit.

It's his fault I'm here too, many years ago he mentioned it in an interview in a weekend newspaper and I was intrigued. Which podcast episode was it?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sonny_Jim on September 16, 2021, 01:20:50 PM
Ooh buggered if I know.  Maybe one near my join date?  But then I tended to listen to them out of order so I dunno.  Might listen to them all again actually, not got much else to do in lockdown.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on September 16, 2021, 01:48:07 PM
Seeing this thread again made me go back to the first page of it, and a lot of good points are made. I can see that my most recent posts in the Glinner thread are pointless ("padding", as Lisa said), but I suppose I was trying to express my surprise at how the toll of his crusade can be seen on him physically.

Rereading the earlier few pages though did make me think about why I continue to keep up with the Glinner theads and, to a degree, the surrounding drama. In light of what's come out about Norm MacDonald, it occurred that if we want back 10 years when Graham was still known for writing sitcoms, and found out that he was a serial sex pest, or even a rapist or a nonce, there would have been a flurry of news and discussion, and by this point (to CaB I mean), his name would be an occasional lazy, edgy reference.

But it's something so different to that, it's such a unique situation. And it's a horrible situation, but it's also fascinating for valid reasons, because it's so completely singular. 

Maybe something similar could be the Chris-Chan saga, but I know for sure that CaB would never indulge in the schadenfreude of that for one second, and rightfully so. But it's fascinating for valid reasons too, even though the core of it is deeply tragic. But with Glinner we're freer to rubberneck and comment and poke fun because he has brought on all this himself and (and this is important) he's a bully. And for various reasons, I feel safe saying that most people who find themselves on CaB hate bullies, for the same reason we routinely criticize comics who punch down.

I have no conclusion, just my rambling thoughts / rationalizations. Sorry.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Egyptian Feast on September 16, 2021, 01:55:48 PM
Quote from: pigamus on September 16, 2021, 12:14:22 PM
Perhaps we should have a woman who smells for balance. I'm sure Julie Burchill reeks of fags.

I'm sure someone on this or another forum said years ago that they'd worked with her and she smelled of sour milk.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sonny_Jim on September 16, 2021, 02:03:31 PM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on September 16, 2021, 01:48:07 PM
I can see that my most recent posts in the Glinner thread are pointless ("padding", as Lisa said)
Sometimes the thread does need to churn for a bit before someone comes up with a comedy gem, sometimes it's just that Graham isn't doing anything interesting.  Because of that it sits at the top of Comedy Chat and I can see why it'd piss people off. 

Quote
Maybe something similar could be the Chris-Chan saga, but I know for sure that CaB would never indulge in the schadenfreude of that for one second
Yeah I've considered whether it's healthy or not to endlessly pick apart the minutiae of it, but gosh darn if he doesn't keep on doing crazy shit and it's nice to be able to make jokes that very few people in the world will find funny.

The whole 'it's ok because he is a bully' thing I get a bit conflicted with.  He does deserve it, especially done in a comedy way due to his origins.  Joking about his wife and kids leaving is a bit rum, but it never really gets any worse than that.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: jobotic on September 16, 2021, 02:04:31 PM
Quote from: pigamus on September 16, 2021, 12:14:22 PM
Perhaps we should have a woman who smells for balance. I'm sure Julie Burchill reeks of fags.

Bet she doesn't even smoke.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on September 16, 2021, 02:08:03 PM
Quote from: jobotic on September 16, 2021, 02:04:31 PM
Bet she doesn't even smoke.

she must steal other people's coats

I would like to formally apologise to Ms Julie Birchill for claiming in the CookdandBombd forum that she steals people's quotes. This was a false statement and I retract it unequivocally. I will not be discussing this issue further.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Egyptian Feast on September 16, 2021, 02:11:50 PM
Quote from: Sonny_Jim on September 16, 2021, 02:03:31 PM
Yeah I've considered whether it's healthy or not to endlessly pick apart the minutiae of it, but gosh darn if he doesn't keep on doing crazy shit and it's nice to be able to make jokes that very few people in the world will find funny.

The whole 'it's ok because he is a bully' thing I get a bit conflicted with.  He does deserve it, especially done in a comedy way due to his origins.  Joking about his wife and kids leaving is a bit rum, but it never really gets any worse than that.

He's so gleefully mean and spiteful he deserves every bit of it, the hypocritical dish-out-but-can't-take-it bananas cunt.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: madhair60 on September 16, 2021, 02:27:23 PM
who stinks of dick
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: pigamus on September 16, 2021, 02:47:37 PM
Pat Nixon
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dex Sawash on September 16, 2021, 03:12:18 PM
Quote from: Sonny_Jim on September 16, 2021, 12:33:21 PM
I found CaB because Adam Buxton named dropped it on one of his podcasts, inevitably got sucked into the GlinnerSaga and now I'm posting about the colours of international crisp packets.

Slippery slope, innit.


Could use some help in the international butter thread

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,89426.0.html
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phes on September 16, 2021, 03:19:20 PM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on September 16, 2021, 01:48:07 PM
...it occurred that if we want back 10 years when Graham was still known for writing sitcoms, and found out that he was a serial sex pest, or even a rapist or a nonce, there would have been a flurry of news and discussion, and by this point (to CaB I mean), his name would be an occasional lazy, edgy reference.

But it's something so different to that, it's such a unique situation. And it's a horrible situation, but it's also fascinating for valid reasons, because it's so completely singular. 

I see it as very similar to what happened with Gervais use of mong, but Gervais and Linehan took very different roads to achieve redemption. Gervais finally apologized and used the 'I really didn't know' excuse. Then to protect his ego and prove that he was the bestest man all along he dredged up an old character and wrote an entire three series about disability that was completely fucking bananas. Lesson there for Linehan, if he'd just stopped after after 'I didn't intend it to come across that way, I'll be more careful' (paraphrasing) and then written a totally and utterly bananas comedy about a transwoman toilet attendant then we would all be in a much better place
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ferris on September 16, 2021, 06:08:10 PM
Gervais dropped it, so the thread died - nothing new or interesting to say. GB News is just churning out the same stuff and no one cares. Thread on life support (even though the channel is a going concern), because there's nothing new or interesting to say.

If Linehan stopped all this for 6 months the threads would stop after a fortnight and probably never return. It's the fact that he keeps escalating and doubling down which provides more content to comment upon and ridicule. I stop following them for weeks at a time but whenever I dip back in I find he's still going, and at an increasingly hectic pace (travelling to Cardiff and Edinburgh within a week or two to join fringe protests and yell at strangers). If he stopped, or allowed himself to fade into tedious obscurity the threads would disappear along with him.

As it is, I'm fine with threads being there. I don't know what the fix is for people who find them annoying - sticky them to the top like the labour/brexit threads in general bullshit maybe?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 16, 2021, 06:29:49 PM
Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on September 16, 2021, 06:08:10 PM
As it is, I'm fine with threads being there. I don't know what the fix is for people who find them annoying - sticky them to the top like the labour/brexit threads in general bullshit maybe?

surprised there isn't a hide thread feature on cab[nb]is there?[/nb]
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on September 16, 2021, 06:44:49 PM
I think the worst things about the Glinner threads is that the "it's fine to bully bullies" logic (which Linehan clings to as a justification himself) sometimes takes - I think - some posters in directions that degrades themselves and doesn't really do any good to anyone. Not generally, with respect to Linehan but about some of the damaged people with misdirected trauma.

But I think that's party of a wider problem of ceding the "radical feminism" ground to the worst people trying to hold that label and letting them continue to dominate public discussion of "trans issues" - it doesn't really matter if they're not "winning" "battles" in those discussions, if they're successfully distracting from things that actually matter to trans people (either as trans people or just people).
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on September 16, 2021, 06:54:35 PM
Quote from: Zetetic on September 16, 2021, 06:44:49 PM
I think the worst things about the Glinner threads is that the "it's fine to bully bullies" logic (which Linehan clings to as a justification himself) sometimes takes - I think - some posters in directions that degrades themselves and doesn't really do any good to anyone. Not generally, with respect to Linehan but about some of the damaged people with misdirected trauma.

I see what you're getting at, and I agree broadly I suppose. But a couple of things. I don't think the Glinner threads here are bullying - mocking certainly, but bullying connotes something more focused and intended to inflict pain. I also see how my previous post was ambiguous. I'm not saying that's it ok bully bullies, just that Glinner being a bully explains a lot of why so many of us here have such an interest in the threads dedicated to watching and commenting on his behaviour.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 16, 2021, 07:15:49 PM
And people on here aren't harassing him and his family, or even people who vaguely know him, and getting him to humiliate himself on camera. Which is what happened to Chris-chan.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Janie Jones on September 16, 2021, 08:05:37 PM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on September 16, 2021, 06:54:35 PM
- mocking certainly, ...

I don't care about Glinner, he dishes it out so fuck him. What bothers me is when we mock him for his bad skin or stoop or wonky eyes or leg tremor or 'looking like he smells bad' (which I presume means he is over 50 and a bit disheveled). When you have one or more of those attributes, it's not nice seeing it mocked as part and parcel of an unpleasant hateful person who, by implication, deserves to be mocked for these afflictions.

When Madhair's wonderful thread summary was trending we thought we'd get a huge influx of new anti-transphobes. We didn't. Just some 'wow, those guys are funny and savage,' sort of comments on Twitter.  I know I'm in the minority and I'll be accused of whining and asking to see the manager (funny that) but I think the mocking of anyone's appearance diminishes us and makes the place look 'savage' and unwelcoming .
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: QDRPHNC on September 16, 2021, 08:08:19 PM
As someone who only yesterday made fun of him for looking like he smells bad, I think your point is a very good one and I will not do so any more.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on September 16, 2021, 08:17:19 PM
Quote from: Janie Jones on September 16, 2021, 08:05:37 PM
When Madhair's wonderful thread summary was trending we thought we'd get a huge influx of new anti-transphobes. We didn't. Just some 'wow, those guys are funny and savage,' sort of comments on Twitter.  I know I'm in the minority and I'll be accused of whining and asking to see the manager (funny that) but I think the mocking of anyone's appearance diminishes us and makes the place look 'savage' and unwelcoming .

is possible but one other reason could be that they are twitter people (which is a pretty 'savage' platform in itself) and therefore have no interest in old school forums.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ferris on September 16, 2021, 09:00:01 PM
Quote from: QDRPHNC on September 16, 2021, 06:54:35 PM
I see what you're getting at, and I agree broadly I suppose. But a couple of things. I don't think the Glinner threads here are bullying - mocking certainly, but bullying connotes something more focused and intended to inflict pain. I also see how my previous post was ambiguous. I'm not saying that's it ok bully bullies, just that Glinner being a bully explains a lot of why so many of us here have such an interest in the threads dedicated to watching and commenting on his behaviour.

Yes and to add - I think we (largely? Always?) keep to our own corner of the internet, and he keeps to his. If we were tweeting our withering put downs out to 600k twitter followers, then you could argue the intent of the thread content is to do harm. As it is, we're the online equivalent of two dozen people yucking it up in a beer garden. People could overhear us, but that isn't the intention of having the conversation.

Cf. publishing our thoughts on substack, charging a fee to read, and trying desperately to disseminate the stuff as far and wide as possible (like going on GB News or speaking in front of the HoL or interviews with friendly and credulous journalists from national newspapers). And that's before you get onto the nature of the criticism (its a lot more substantive on CaB than on a certain Substack), and the nature of the demographic being criticized (ie. we're not punching down at a vulnerable section of society).

As a whole, I don't think it is particularly out of order - there were a few comments in earlier threads that went too far or on an unpleasant tangent but weren't well received and the community largely self regulates. I don't contribute much and i go through phases of ignoring it, but I'm fine with it being on CaB and don't believe it is some kind of ethical Achilles' Heel.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on September 16, 2021, 10:37:26 PM
Well, I've changed my mind about the whole thing, now. I reckon he stinks of shit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 16, 2021, 10:51:19 PM
unhealthy breast odour
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: chveik on September 16, 2021, 11:01:47 PM
it's the fact that he keeps to up the ante that makes the threads going (and the funny photoshops and people talking about stuff not directly related to him) because the discourse around glinner (as a singular celebrity downfall) has been explored extensively at this point.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: imitationleather on September 16, 2021, 11:11:38 PM
What I find interesting about Glinner's physical appearance is how it has really changed the more he's gone off the trans-hate deep end. He's really displaying how unwell he is on his face. I think he used to be a reasonably attractive man back in the day.

Like a lot of other posters have already said I find the threads genuinely informative and a very valuable resource. Years back I think I might have had some mildly transphobic views which came from a position of knowing basically zero about the topic, so they've really changed the way I think about things and this probably wouldn't have happened any other way. I talk about stuff I've read in the threads a lot with people who aren't on CaB, so it's also getting out to people who for some reason don't feel like they need internet forums in their life.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on September 16, 2021, 11:30:22 PM
I honestly don't think he looks like he stinks of anything but bananas.

And I do think there's value in the cataloguing of his mad spiral. The documents are there, and may be useful for future biographers/psychologists/prosecutors.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ferris on September 16, 2021, 11:43:07 PM
Quote from: chveik on September 16, 2021, 11:01:47 PM
it's the fact that he keeps to up the ante that makes the threads going (and the funny photoshops and people talking about stuff not directly related to him) because the discourse around glinner (as a singular celebrity downfall) has been explored extensively at this point.

Yes.

If he just stopped (Gervais) then whatever and however ludicrous his points, eventually that would be that. Thread dies, nothing new or interesting to say.

If he just carried on but without the doubling down upon doubling down, the thread would be running out of steam (GB News thread). There's no continued ratcheting up of extremity or increasingly fringe/weird stuff then there's nothing new or interesting to say. Garrison thread another good example.

Its the continued output, and the increased extremity of the output that piques interest. Drop out for a few weeks then drop back in - suddenly he's going to fringe protests with a few dozen blue-haired bigots at regional parliaments. The fact it is getting more inherently more extreme (while also being inherently absurd - he's a straight white man who has depth-charged his life and career over this issue that has no impact on him) drives comment.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Captain Z on September 17, 2021, 12:03:21 AM
Quote from: Janie Jones on September 16, 2021, 08:05:37 PM
When Madhair's wonderful thread summary was trending we thought we'd get a huge influx of new anti-transphobes. We didn't. Just some 'wow, those guys are funny and savage,' sort of comments on Twitter.

I don't disagree with the general vibe of your post, but registrations are currently closed. We also didn't get an influx when we were namedropped on primetime BBC1, but the same might have been true then. I believe new members occasionally trickle in if they are proactive enough to go via Barry on Twitter?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on September 17, 2021, 01:42:38 AM
Quote from: Captain Z on September 17, 2021, 12:03:21 AM
I don't disagree with the general vibe of your post, but registrations are currently closed. We also didn't get an influx when we were namedropped on primetime BBC1, but the same might have been true then. I believe new members occasionally trickle in if they are proactive enough to go via Barry on Twitter?

No, I don't use Twitter, haven't for years.

Registrations only just closed again yesterday.  I'm having problems keeping out spammers and banned members at the minute, there's another spam wave, and so we did get a few new people, but there's another 26 accounts that I have to verify, and it's pretty time-consuming. 

I'll bang through another batch tomorrow hopefully, I've had a stinking migraine all day.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 17, 2021, 01:55:25 PM
As excited as I am to learn what some rando on Mumsnet thinks about some bollocks TERF topic, nothing to do with are Graham. Why not just create a Mumsnet thread in GB if you absolutely, positively, can't stop visiting there?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 17, 2021, 03:39:43 PM
This is aimed at me, and the reason I posted is because it's related to TERFs and because Bananacunt had a history of run-ins with Mermaids. Put me on ignore if you're that arsed about it. And I'm not going to post TERF shit in the other trans stuff thread. The Glinner thread is also the TERF shit thread anyway, plenty of posts about Millar et al.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on September 17, 2021, 03:42:15 PM
Yeah I feel there are too many potential tangents in the Glinner thread all the time. AOC's dress getting span out is fine, but other terf things are ok imo. I mean we don't want every other thread on the board to be about terfs, and the Glinner thread gets so much activity that this'd be a potential outcome.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dr Rock on September 17, 2021, 03:44:57 PM
Quote from: Famous Mortimer on September 17, 2021, 01:55:25 PM
As excited as I am to learn what some rando on Mumsnet thinks about some bollocks TERF topic, nothing to do with are Graham. Why not just create a Mumsnet thread in GB if you absolutely, positively, can't stop visiting there?

Why not simply skip the occasional post about what the terves at Mumsnet are saying?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 17, 2021, 03:47:38 PM
Didn't the OP of the queer stuff thread ask that anything Glinner/TERF-related be kept out of the thread?

Despite what Mortimer thinks, I do post about things other than MN but they and Bananacunt are part of the same problem. And the TERF crowd Bananacunt is in with do claim that OUR CHILDREN are being brainwashed by trans people, and that schools are indoctrinating kids.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Endicott on September 23, 2021, 04:20:09 PM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 16, 2021, 06:29:49 PM
surprised there isn't a hide thread feature on cab[nb]is there?[/nb]

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,87097.msg4555823.html#msg4555823
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 23, 2021, 04:52:35 PM
Quote from: Kankurette on September 17, 2021, 03:47:38 PM
Didn't the OP of the queer stuff thread ask that anything Glinner/TERF-related be kept out of the thread?

and subsequently no one posted in it

Quote from: Endicott on September 23, 2021, 04:20:09 PM
https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,87097.msg4555823.html#msg4555823

fab thank you x

edit: uninstalled bc it glitches up the replies to your posts feature
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 23, 2021, 06:21:30 PM
Quote from: Dr Rock on September 17, 2021, 03:44:57 PM
Why not simply skip the occasional post about what the terves at Mumsnet are saying?
Why not just not post that sort of thing? Who cares about fucking Mumsnet?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on September 23, 2021, 09:55:39 PM
I said it before, but I think it's good that the Glinner thread is also a general TERFs Gone Bananas thread. Keeps all the ugliness in one place, makes it easier to avoid if you just can't be doing with it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 23, 2021, 10:59:44 PM
Quote from: Famous Mortimer on September 23, 2021, 06:21:30 PM
Why not just not post that sort of thing? Who cares about fucking Mumsnet?
Loads of people don't care about Glinner. And yet.

I'm not going to stink up the queer/trans comrades thread with TERF bullshit just because you're mad about seeing the odd post about Mumsnet in the Glinner thread.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 27, 2021, 05:22:29 PM
going to wring my hands around and say that the racecar bed jokes and ESPECIALLY the carbonara ones and where's my wife ones are embarrassingly stale[nb]banana jokes also going mouldy[/nb]

it's nearly the year of our lord 2022

just my opinion w/e fight me
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 27, 2021, 05:25:28 PM
Quote from: Kankurette on September 23, 2021, 10:59:44 PM
Loads of people don't care about Glinner. And yet.

I'm not going to stink up the queer/trans comrades thread with TERF bullshit just because you're mad about seeing the odd post about Mumsnet in the Glinner thread.
If only there were a third option, like starting another thread! Then we could find out how many people give the tiniest bit of a fuck about what Mumsnet posters think about the issues of the day. If only!
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on September 27, 2021, 06:24:53 PM
oh god why do you care FM
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Wayman C. McCreery on September 27, 2021, 07:21:06 PM
Can the Glinner threads at least be moved to General Bullshit? Linehan's got fuck all to do with comedy any more.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 27, 2021, 07:25:26 PM
Quote from: Famous Mortimer on September 27, 2021, 05:25:28 PM
If only there were a third option, like starting another thread! Then we could find out how many people give the tiniest bit of a fuck about what Mumsnet posters think about the issues of the day. If only!
If only you could get it into your head that people post about TERF-related things in that thread, and Mumsnet is TERF central, therefore it is relevant.

Should we not post anything about Spiked? Julie Bindel? Hadley Freeman? Suzanne Moore?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JamesTC on September 27, 2021, 07:29:15 PM
Quote from: Wayman C. McCreery on September 27, 2021, 07:21:06 PM
Can the Glinner threads at least be moved to General Bullshit? Linehan's got fuck all to do with comedy any more.

He accidentally doxxed himself at the weekend. The guy is funnier than ever, just unintentionally so.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cold Meat Platter on September 27, 2021, 07:29:24 PM
Quote from: Famous Mortimer on September 27, 2021, 05:25:28 PM
If only there were a third option, like starting another thread! Then we could find out how many people give the tiniest bit of a fuck about what Mumsnet posters think about the issues of the day. If only!

Get over yourself. Or tell the person forcing you to read things that I think it's not on and you should be free to read or not read what you want.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 27, 2021, 07:30:12 PM
I generally agree with you but we wouldn't have a 'what did this idiot down the pub say' thread and even if Mumsnet crap is terf related we don't necessarily need to see it to know it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 27, 2021, 07:32:01 PM
OK, so where do we draw the line with non-Glinner TERF shit? Because loads of people post random tweets from random TERFs on Twitter.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Cold Meat Platter on September 27, 2021, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 27, 2021, 07:30:12 PM
I generally agree with you but we wouldn't have a 'what did this idiot down the pub say' thread and even if Mumsnet crap is terf related we don't necessarily need to see it to know it.

I think a 'what did this idiot down the pub say' thread would be quite entertaining. And we already have threads about amusing fringe beliefs etc.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on September 27, 2021, 07:34:35 PM
I think the difference is that the views are rarely amusing or novel, but they're some no-name saying nothing new to no-one that ends up being regurgitated here (often giving them a far greater audience than they'd have otherwise).
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Zetetic on September 27, 2021, 07:36:41 PM
And I think that MN and its relationship to gender identity and transphobia is interesting, to the point of starting a thread about it - but only if you're going to try to draw out something novel from it, ideally the mass of it, not just "look how this dickhead who doesn't matter said something a bit dogshit".

Edit: Which I don't think is an entirely fair characterisation of Kankurette's posts on the matter - I am being a bit hyperbolic.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: evilcommiedictator on September 28, 2021, 02:10:56 AM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 27, 2021, 05:22:29 PM
going to wring my hands around and say that the racecar bed jokes and ESPECIALLY the carbonara ones and where's my wife ones are embarrassingly stale[nb]banana jokes also going mouldy[/nb]

it's nearly the year of our lord 2022

just my opinion w/e fight me

JK Rowling
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on September 28, 2021, 03:09:44 AM
Just scroll past the Mumsnet stuff, Jesus Christ. It's not like there's much of it. And the "it's not notable" argument applies to tons of the idiots on Twitter and in the SGB comments, and people still post those up in the Glinner thread. It's long been about more than just Linehan in any case, and the only disadvantage that I can see is that talking about non-Glin stuff makes it marginally harder to calculate the velocity of his flight into madness.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Ambient Sheep on September 28, 2021, 05:34:14 AM
Just for the record, I have no issue with Mumsnet stuff in the Glinner threads, providing it's about them discussing trans issues.  Which as far as I can remember, it always has been.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on September 28, 2021, 08:46:45 AM
Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on September 27, 2021, 05:22:29 PM
going to wring my hands around and say that the racecar bed jokes and ESPECIALLY the carbonara ones and where's my wife ones are embarrassingly stale[nb]banana jokes also going mouldy[/nb]

it's nearly the year of our lord 2022

just my opinion w/e fight me

The Carbonara is mouldy, the racecar bed is one-note, but mocking the divorce still has a lot of life left imo
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Better Midlands on September 28, 2021, 09:30:16 AM
Quote from: Ambient Sheep on September 28, 2021, 05:34:14 AM
Just for the record, I have no issue with Mumsnet stuff in the Glinner threads, providing it's about them discussing trans issues.  Which as far as I can remember, it always has been.

All part of the extended Glinnerverse, these are his people.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sonny_Jim on September 28, 2021, 10:28:08 AM
You see I'm the opposite, I think pretty much everything is fair game EXCEPT the wife and kids stuff.  It's not that I feel pity for him, it's just I think she would appreciate it if she could be completely dissociated with the vile bigot he has become.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on September 28, 2021, 10:46:29 AM
The only time I've ever posted Mumsnet-related stuff in that thread is if it's TERF shit.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on September 28, 2021, 10:50:41 AM
Yeah the Mumsnet posts are few and far between and the ones that are posted are TERF- and Glinner-related. A "Mumsnet thread" would get pushed off the first page fairly quickly and then would have to be dug out to be updated, if anybody cared to update it.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Chollis on September 28, 2021, 10:52:59 AM
wasn't Mumsnet the first place are Graham turned to on that fateful night (of his twitter banning)?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: idunnosomename on September 28, 2021, 10:55:06 AM
lmao this being on the telegraph website

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/tv/2020/06/29/mumsnet_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqoXEkKul7x9G4-cE8fD0axMLT7ehZAYAKW-wP2wDB-4o.jpg)

absolutely top comedy
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: phantom_power on September 28, 2021, 11:02:38 AM
That BBB line is a classic. It is like he transmogrified from Graham Linehan to Lister in his Twitter grief
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Sonny_Jim on September 28, 2021, 12:22:46 PM
Do you mean Rimmer?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on September 28, 2021, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: Sonny_Jim on September 28, 2021, 12:22:46 PM
Do you mean Rimmer?
It's Gary Gary Gary Glinner
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on September 28, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
Quote from: canadagoose on September 28, 2021, 12:42:50 PM
It's Gary Gary Gary Glinner

Quote from: JaDanketies on March 09, 2021, 10:56:12 AM
(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2018/10/07/TELEMMGLPICT000107272829_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqdUmhXeXpYjuZq0ykTTWUWvBCIx-QjxjL7dzDJrf0-ts.jpeg?imwidth=370)


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Reddwarf_blue_rimmersong.PNG)

"He's Graham Graham Graham Glinner,
There's carbonara for his dinner,
In his bed he's a Grand Prix winner,
He's Graham Graham Glinner..."
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on September 28, 2021, 12:47:35 PM
Quote from: JaDanketies on September 28, 2021, 12:44:50 PM

I knew someone else would have got there first! Damn.
Title: Re: Wheesht 17: Alt-right, Alt-right, Glinner's Nearly Alt-Right (Deep Deep Down)
Post by: Wayman C. McCreery on April 24, 2022, 11:12:44 PM
Can the next one of these threads finally be biffed into General Bullshit? About 95% of the posts are fuck all to do with Linehan now.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on April 24, 2022, 11:16:50 PM
Quote from: Wayman C. McCreery on April 24, 2022, 11:12:44 PMCan the next one of these threads finally be biffed into General Bullshit? About 95% of the posts are fuck all to do with Linehan now.

No.
Title: Re: Graham Linehan Episode XVIII: Help Me Elon Muskenobi, You're My Only Hope
Post by: prelektric on May 21, 2022, 05:24:10 PM
Been grimly following this over time, but never felt the need to comment until now.

There was no need to drag his former colleagues into this. For all kinds of reasons, they're not obliged, or compelled, to comment on it. If they want to continue working with him, that is up to them. But that is a professional decision on their part. I don't remember people refusing to work with John Lennon because he was a known wife beater.

We all know what bananacunt has been up to, because he gleefully spreads it all over the place, but don't drag the rest of everyone he's ever worked with into it, that just makes all the tittle tattle gossip even worse, and solves nothing.

The fact that this topic has generated at least, what? 18 threads worth ought to tell you that some here are pretty obsessed by it. He's fucked his entire life, no one here is going to change his mind. Honestly it's almost like a Mumsnet obsession over something you have zero influence on, and it all just becomes a soap opera in forum shape.

He's going nowhere. Also, his crusade is going nowhere. It will die, a shrinking minority that will just get bored and abandon it. He'll be left alone. And that's that.

You're all better than this. Forget it and move on. He won't, but you should.

Unless you're doing all this for some sort of weird kicks and shits and giggles, in which case, fair enough. I used to kick a ball against a wall for hours when I was I kid, never scored a goal. Because there wasn't one. You can do similar here.

Yours sincerely

Annoyed of Gateshead.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Alberon on May 21, 2022, 05:50:12 PM
No one from here should be bothering former, or even current, colleagues.

As to the fascination of watching someone deliberately trash their entire life, that speaks for itself.

We are nearer the end than the beginning. Half the GC crowd are pulling away as he goes too far and the other half because he isn't rabid enough.

I'd add that the threads have become more a gender critical one than just a Linehan one.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Rich Uncle Skeleton on May 21, 2022, 05:53:45 PM
Quote from: prelektric on May 21, 2022, 05:24:10 PMThere was no need to drag his former colleagues into this. For all kinds of reasons, they're not obliged, or compelled, to comment on it. If they want to continue working with him, that is up to them. But that is a professional decision on their part. I don't remember people refusing to work with John Lennon because he was a known wife beater.

I feel like I'm going to regret a "that was then, this is now" response as it's a whole other issue I'm not qualified to talk about, except to say if it turned out one of Coldplay was beating his wife in 2022 I'm sure he'd find himself out of the band and the work drying up pretty quick.

But more to the point, while Graham's not physically attacking anybody his behaviour's still appalling and if colleagues are letting it slide either out of agreement or fear of losing money then I think bringing them up is perfectly valid. I don't remember anyone here actually bothering any of them though.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: prelektric on May 21, 2022, 06:05:46 PM
Quote from: Rich Uncle Skeleton on May 21, 2022, 05:53:45 PMI feel like I'm going to regret a "that was then, this is now" response as it's a whole other issue I'm not qualified to talk about, except to say if it turned out one of Coldplay was beating his wife in 2022 I'm sure he'd find himself out of the band and the work drying up pretty quick.

But more to the point, while Graham's not physically attacking anybody his behaviour's still appalling and if colleagues are letting it slide either out of agreement or fear of losing money then I think bringing them up is perfectly valid. I don't remember anyone here actually bothering any of them though.

Kind of regret making that post now.

But I get what you're saying. I was just annoyed by the whole shitshow.

Sorry everyone.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Better Midlands on May 21, 2022, 06:12:47 PM
Quote from: prelektric on May 21, 2022, 06:05:46 PMKind of regret making that post now.

But I get what you're saying. I was just annoyed by the whole shitshow.
 
S orry everyone.

Nah, you're alright 🙂

This goes way back

Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: C_Larence on May 21, 2022, 06:16:00 PM
Quote from: Rich Uncle Skeleton on May 21, 2022, 05:53:45 PMBut more to the point, while Graham's not physically attacking anybody his behaviour's still appalling and if colleagues are letting it slide either out of agreement or fear of losing money then I think bringing them up is perfectly valid. I don't remember anyone here actually bothering any of them though.
I think it's fair to say that when he was working with the people we're talking about condemning him he was essentially a different person, or to put it more literally, he wasn't monomaniacally obsessed with trans people.

They aren't his colleagues now, most probably have no knowledge or opinion either way about trans issues, so why should they have to talk about it at all? Once having worked with somebody doesn't mean you condone their actions forever after.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Rich Uncle Skeleton on May 21, 2022, 06:26:20 PM
sorry prelektric's post was moved here from the Graham thread where it was (i think) originally in response to people talking about Arthur Mathews and Neil Hannon still working with him on Pope Ted.

You're right, Linehan wasn't the transphobe he is now and I don't think there's many here who'd think Cyril from Father Ted needs to be hassled for his thoughts on Graham's descent. Would just make us as bad as Linehan asking Jo Unwin for example about JK Rowling apropos of nothing.

QuoteOnce having worked with somebody doesn't mean you condone their actions forever after.

This is the flipside to Graham Linehan responding to people who've acted in his shows with a "thanks for your work on _____, but...." as if to suggest he's made them and they should be damn grateful instead of talking out of turn.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: prelektric on May 21, 2022, 06:34:29 PM
Quote from: Rich Uncle Skeleton on May 21, 2022, 05:53:45 PMBut more to the point, while Graham's not physically attacking anybody his behaviour's still appalling and if colleagues are letting it slide either out of agreement or fear of losing money then I think bringing them up is perfectly valid. I don't remember anyone here actually bothering any of them though.

I will respond to this. Sorry if it seemed that I'd implied anyone here was involved in any shenanigans, that was absolutely not my intent, just poor drafting on my part.

As to your other point, I have to disagree. People will find work where they can. In television, and especially writers, this is an extraordinarily difficult time right now, particularly due to the pandemic. They will try to find work wherever they can find it. The political ideologies of those they are working with are far, far down their list of priorities. That's where we are now.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on May 21, 2022, 09:03:41 PM
Was just in the front room and Keith Allen was on talking about Vindaloo, briefly talked to my fiancée about the racial controversy that the song might've been about and opined that he was a bit of a prick and it's no wonder he's not doing comedy, then she flipped the channel to Britain's Got Talent and I noticed at least three quarters of the judges were also horrible bellends and that I prefer Keith Allen over this sack of shits.

Tldr everyone on TV is a bellend
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on May 21, 2022, 10:03:43 PM
Quote from: Better Midlands on May 21, 2022, 06:12:47 PMNah, you're alright 🙂

This goes way back


the fucking shaky fucking legs on him

but seriously the most hilarious thing about that clip is that he thinks we've got 18 threads about him in an attempt to big ourselves up. He really believes he's so important that a forum full of mostly nobodies could gain career advancement through pointing and laughing at him. Which, to be clear, is all we're doing.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: pigamus on May 21, 2022, 10:08:48 PM
Looking at that thumbnail he looks just like
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/paul-marciano/images/2/26/Hqdefault-3_%28Murun_Buchstansangur%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on May 21, 2022, 10:19:25 PM
Tbh I'm not remotely arsed about any of the people Bananacunt's worked with.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: prelektric on May 21, 2022, 10:32:26 PM
Quote from: pigamus on May 21, 2022, 10:08:48 PMLooking at that thumbnail he looks just like
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/paul-marciano/images/2/26/Hqdefault-3_%28Murun_Buchstansangur%29.jpg)

It's uncanny. It really is. Fuck.

Meanwhile you've just dredged up the horror of Murun. I hope you're proud. :(

I hated that as a kid, still do. No afternoon great tea and Godzilla and stuff and I'm having some sort of stroke please helppppppppppp...)
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on May 21, 2022, 11:50:51 PM
I was in some retro TV group on Facebook a while back and I swear every week, someone would post about Murun Buchstansangur or, as the mods called him, 'that little grey bastard'. It was the most depressing cartoon ever, not helped by the fact that its main character looks like a grey bollock.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: pigamus on May 21, 2022, 11:56:25 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1DPQhAlWLbc/hqdefault.jpg)
"Thank you for everything, Sian, you really have been my rock through all of this"
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: canadagoose on May 22, 2022, 02:04:20 AM
That's the spitting image of him, so it is.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: boki on May 22, 2022, 03:02:22 AM
Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on May 21, 2022, 10:03:43 PMthe fucking shaky fucking legs on him

As a frequent leg-shaker myself, I think it's possible that this could be an ADHD thing, so I tend to feel a bit uncomfortable when it gets mentioned.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dr Rock on May 22, 2022, 07:39:38 AM
Quote from: pigamus on May 21, 2022, 11:56:25 PM(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1DPQhAlWLbc/hqdefault.jpg)
"Thank you for everything, Sian, you really have been my rock through all of this"

Grayam Muchtransanger
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: DreadedScotsman on May 22, 2022, 10:28:43 AM
Quote from: prelektric on May 21, 2022, 05:24:10 PMHe's going nowhere. Also, his crusade is going nowhere. It will die, a shrinking minority that will just get bored and abandon it. He'll be left alone. And that's that.


I agree in the long run that's where things appear to be heading but getting complacent about calling this shit out can lead to things back sliding and I think you're underestimating how much sway he still has. We all know he's an atrocious frothing at the mouth bigot but he was invited on newsnight to discuss his bigotry he was invited to the House of Lords to discuss it, whilst he was a jabbering mess both times he still got the invite. Rosie Duffield cites glinners videos as being a contributing factor in her becoming gender critical, that's a sitting MP he's helped radicalise. I know all of this can be annoying but I still think it's worthwhile cataloguing the whole horror show.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on May 22, 2022, 04:59:21 PM
Quote from: boki on Yesterday at 03:02:22 AMAs a frequent leg-shaker myself, I think it's possible that this could be an ADHD thing, so I tend to feel a bit uncomfortable when it gets mentioned.

My family calls it "[Mum's maiden name]'s legs" because it's so common amongst us. I think we would control it on Newsnight tho.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: ImmaculateClump on May 22, 2022, 05:19:41 PM
I had a friend at school who's legs would go like that right up until the home time bell. It was just nervous energy in his case. That's how he got it out, he was like a serene duck above the waist and his legs would be going hell for leather under the desk.

I'm guessing that's what it is with Graham, he's never liked being in the spotlight, has he? I'm assuming he's not doing that when he's on the bus.

Might it be an Irish thing? They're always jigging about, aren't they?
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on May 22, 2022, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: ImmaculateClump on Yesterday at 05:19:41 PMI'm guessing that's what it is with Graham, he's never liked being in the spotlight, has he? I'm assuming he's not doing that when he's on the bus.

He loves the spotlight but he's not suited for it and knows it so he gives himself little parts here and there. Cunt thinks he's Tarantino.  "Do you see a sign outside my flat that says dead career storage?"
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: ImmaculateClump on May 22, 2022, 06:33:16 PM
Haha, yeah, I think that's closer to the truth.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Brundle-Fly on May 22, 2022, 07:10:21 PM
Quote from: Better Midlands on May 21, 2022, 06:12:47 PM


He seems to be spouting a load of paranoid bollocks. Sure, there have been some real mean spirited Cabbers but he's conveniently forgotten how many people on this forum truly loved much of his comedy output before he became so objectionable on social media. I'd be really interested to know how many Cabbers from twenty five years ago actually posted this The IT Crowd harsh criticism on Why That's Delightful.  Are many of them still here today? Also how many of them were/are aspiring comedians/ writers. 
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dex Sawash on May 22, 2022, 07:16:12 PM
Father Ted quotes only recently mostly disappeared
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Pink Gregory on May 22, 2022, 07:47:10 PM
If he were to recant everything he's been doing and make suitable amends (and it would have to be a fucking lot at this point) such as a large donation to trans charities, material support for deradicalisation from GC circles and complete rejection of the company he's kept for the last few years; I don't think we'd begrudge him forever.

However, what he has done so far is, frankly, unforgiveable, and I think the chances of him doing that are so slim that it's not worth considering.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Kankurette on May 22, 2022, 08:06:14 PM
I jiggle my legs. I think it might be a stim but then my brother does it as well and he's not autistic, so who knows.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: JaDanketies on May 22, 2022, 08:13:47 PM
Quote from: Pink Gregory on Yesterday at 07:47:10 PMHowever, what he has done so far is, frankly, unforgiveable, and I think the chances of him doing that are so slim that it's not worth considering.

tbh he's at Chris Langham levels imo. There is no longer any mea culpa that is big enough. He's shown us the ugliest part of his arsehole and made sure we all got a careful look at it.

There's no way that anyone can look at him again and not think about when he loudly insisted that everyone on Earth pay attention to the most repulsive parts of his character for several years.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Dex Sawash on May 22, 2022, 08:19:10 PM

Let's get back to the backseat moderating
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Barry Admin on May 22, 2022, 08:21:12 PM
Quote from: Brundle-Fly on Yesterday at 07:10:21 PMHe seems to be spouting a load of paranoid bollocks. Sure, there have been some real mean spirited Cabbers but he's conveniently forgotten how many people on this forum truly loved much of his comedy output before he became so objectionable on social media. I'd be really interested to know how many Cabbers from twenty five years ago actually posted this The IT Crowd harsh criticism on Why That's Delightful.  Are many of them still here today? Also how many of them were/are aspiring comedians/ writers. 

It's all in the archive, although sadly people didn't copy most of their blog remarks over to here. Most were just about the nature of criticism itself.

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?msg=746528

As I've said since, I regret it and got the tone wrong, but had no experience of blogs then. I tried to make some sort of amends years later on twitter, but he was a total dick to me. Not many people went over to the blog, but he would delete everything that was said anyway.

It passed quickly really. The thread is a bit embarrassing as it features a fight between me and yer man from Pugwash, which was the culmination of months of  him being a twat on here. He was at Linehan's wedding and took the whole blog thing super badly .

I had actually written a front page update singing the praises of the first series of the IT Crowd, based on a review copy of the first couple of episodes. I was very supportive of it, but that later episode where Matt Berry joined was fucking horrendous.

TBH I kind of stirred things up years later by writing a blog which criticised Noel Fielding for using his fans to savage his critics, and I took some swipes at "Twitter policeman Graham Linehan" which really sent him ballistic.
Title: Re: Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]
Post by: Mister Six on May 22, 2022, 10:34:33 PM
Quote from: Dex Sawash on Yesterday at 08:19:10 PMLet's get back to the backseat moderating

Barry, please move this to the thread about backseat moderating the backseat moderating thread, cheers.