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Forums => Picture Box => Topic started by: dr_christian_troy on October 05, 2020, 01:52:46 PM

Title: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: dr_christian_troy on October 05, 2020, 01:52:46 PM
As requested on the DS9 thread, here's a thread to discuss all things Voyager.

I'm currently on Season 2 - admittedly it's not cementing for me in the same way TNG and DS9 have done, but I'll persevere. How about you?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on October 05, 2020, 02:24:49 PM
I feel like the first two seasons have a little more focus and are more cohesive. They balance on going stories with episodic storytelling in much the same way as DS9 was at the time but then the two shows diverged into different direction.

I would say that the later seasons are better but that is only due to a change in focus to Seven and The Doctor as well as better individual episodes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on October 05, 2020, 02:32:11 PM
Over my most recent rewatch of TOS through to VOY, I honestly think Voyager was more enjoyable than TNG on the whole. TNG has better high points, but also a ton of total shit, while Voyager is at least usually fun. It's far more willing to play around and explore pulp-y ideas than the other post-TOS series were, which leads to some fantastic big concepts. Plus they started doing metafictional episodes later on - there's one where the Doctor gets a fandom who start sending him fanmail and demanding he appear at conventions, and I remember another one where Torres crashes on a planet full of playwrights who are trying to basically write Voyager episodes, or something like that.

Season 4 is where the show really takes off, IMO. I appreciate that they tried to do running arcs in the first two seasons with the Kazon and such, but none of them really work - anything involving the Kazon, Seska, or the godawful Paris-Kes-Neelix triangle really sucks. Season 3 has plenty of great standalone episodes, but the introduction Seven of Nine lifts the show up to the next level.

I also think Janeway is the best Captain in all of Star Trek*, and the hate she gets from fans online confuses me. She mixes Kirk's decisiveness and determination with Picard's morality, while mostly avoiding the pitfalls that those two characters exhibit (Kirk is a fucking idiot who regularly gets people killed by doing stupid shit, while Picard hides behind the Prime Directive far too often, and also frequently disappears up his own ass and starts giving everyone boring didactic lectures where the writers just tell you what to think). She also treats the crew as equals and usually bothers to actually explain what she's doing and why, rather than just barking orders and deciding everything solo like Kirk and Picard often do.

*From the third season onwards, at least. I remember her being occasionally oddly written and annoying in the first two seasons.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr_Simnock on October 05, 2020, 02:38:54 PM
oooooooh yeah

(https://cdn.hipwallpaper.com/i/95/25/gHkrTf.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on October 05, 2020, 04:00:52 PM
Original Janeway before Mulgrew took over

https://youtube.com/watch?v=8SIZcDWKyw0

I like Voyager. It's not as shit as a lot of people make it out to be.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: olliebean on October 05, 2020, 05:59:50 PM
Quote from: JamesTC on October 05, 2020, 02:24:49 PM
I feel like the first two seasons have a little more focus and are more cohesive. They balance on going stories with episodic storytelling in much the same way as DS9 was at the time but then the two shows diverged into different direction.

I would say that the later seasons are better but that is only due to a change in focus to Seven and The Doctor as well as better individual episodes.

There are also some real stinkers in the later seasons, though, like the awful Fair Haven episodes.

I'm currently nearing the end of season 6, finding it a bit of a mixed bag.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on October 05, 2020, 06:12:43 PM
Quote from: olliebean on October 05, 2020, 05:59:50 PM
There are also some real stinkers in the later seasons, though, like the awful Fair Haven episodes.

I'm currently nearing the end of season 6, finding it a bit of a mixed bag.

Definitely. Fair Haven and 11:59 are down there with Shades of Grey as the nadir of Trek (pre-2009) for me. But the positive of ultra episodic TV is that these rubbish episodes can be forgotten about when you move on to the next episode. Funnily enough Fair Haven and 11:59 are both followed by great episodes (Relativity and Blick of an Eye).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 05, 2020, 06:34:28 PM
Any episodes centred on the Doctor or Seven are the best. Series 3-5 are the peak. Enjoy this show.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: daf on October 05, 2020, 07:41:16 PM
Quote from: olliebean on October 05, 2020, 05:59:50 PM
There are also some real stinkers in the later seasons, though, like the awful Fair Haven episodes.

I can't remember now whether that was a real space colony gone 'retro', or a Holo-deck program (seemingly based on a couple of the 'County Cork' episodes of Murder She Wrote!)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 05, 2020, 07:57:08 PM
Fair Haven was a holo program. One of those conceits of Voyager that with massively limited resources they still kept a holo program running 24/7. Both are shite, pronounced with a bad Oirish accent.

The worst episode is Retrospect, where Seven is convinced some bloke has taken some of her borg implants without consent. It's a horrible sexual abuse metaphor made worse by the ending (and I'm gonna spoil it because it's awful) where it turns out Seven was wrong and had falsely accused the guy who is now very dead. So don't believe women accusers, they're probably making it up. Definitely hasn't aged well.

My favourite episodes are:

Eye of the Needle
Meld
Future's End (1+2)
Distant Origin
Year of Hell (1+2)
Message in a Bottle
Living Witness
Drone
Timeless (so good they remade it for the finale)
Latent Image
Someone to Watch Over Me
Equinox (1+2)
Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy
Blink of an Eye
Life Line
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: greenman on October 05, 2020, 08:12:06 PM
Quote from: Lemming on October 05, 2020, 02:32:11 PM
Over my most recent rewatch of TOS through to VOY, I honestly think Voyager was more enjoyable than TNG on the whole. TNG has better high points, but also a ton of total shit, while Voyager is at least usually fun. It's far more willing to play around and explore pulp-y ideas than the other post-TOS series were, which leads to some fantastic big concepts. Plus they started doing metafictional episodes later on - there's one where the Doctor gets a fandom who start sending him fanmail and demanding he appear at conventions, and I remember another one where Torres crashes on a planet full of playwrights who are trying to basically write Voyager episodes, or something like that.

Season 4 is where the show really takes off, IMO. I appreciate that they tried to do running arcs in the first two seasons with the Kazon and such, but none of them really work - anything involving the Kazon, Seska, or the godawful Paris-Kes-Neelix triangle really sucks. Season 3 has plenty of great standalone episodes, but the introduction Seven of Nine lifts the show up to the next level.

I also think Janeway is the best Captain in all of Star Trek*, and the hate she gets from fans online confuses me. She mixes Kirk's decisiveness and determination with Picard's morality, while mostly avoiding the pitfalls that those two characters exhibit (Kirk is a fucking idiot who regularly gets people killed by doing stupid shit, while Picard hides behind the Prime Directive far too often, and also frequently disappears up his own ass and starts giving everyone boring didactic lectures where the writers just tell you what to think). She also treats the crew as equals and usually bothers to actually explain what she's doing and why, rather than just barking orders and deciding everything solo like Kirk and Picard often do.

*From the third season onwards, at least. I remember her being occasionally oddly written and annoying in the first two seasons.

Part of the problem I'd say though is that she's too good a captain, doesn't leave much room for reasonable conflict, Picards standoffishness and Sisko's impulsiveness made for better drama.

I'd agree Voyager is better than its reputation and picks up post Kazon I'd say it was more inconsistent than TNG and DS9 because it didn't have as interesting a crew to draw on and so was more dependant on the writers coming up with interesting concepts. The only ones I felt they could consistently go to for good character episodes were Torres, Seven and the Doctor.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on October 05, 2020, 08:16:20 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on October 05, 2020, 07:57:08 PMMy favourite episodes are:

Eye of the Needle
Meld
Future's End (1+2)
Distant Origin
Year of Hell (1+2)
Message in a Bottle
Living Witness
Drone
Timeless (so good they remade it for the finale)
Latent Image
Someone to Watch Over Me
Equinox (1+2)
Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy
Blink of an Eye
Life Line

Endgame was basically the opposite of Timeless. Endgame was a crewmember going back in time to convince them to get home through dangerous means whereas Timeless was a crewmember stopping them getting home through dangerous means. Plus Endgame was rubbish and Timeless was brilliant.

Mostly agree with your list. Timeless, Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy, Equinox and Future's End are top of the pile for me. I would also add The Thaw, The Killing Game, Bride of Chaotica, Course: Oblivion and Renaissance Man.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on October 05, 2020, 10:34:57 PM
Quote from: greenman on October 05, 2020, 08:12:06 PM
Part of the problem I'd say though is that she's too good a captain, doesn't leave much room for reasonable conflict, Picards standoffishness and Sisko's impulsiveness made for better drama.

True, but creates a new dynamic, in a way. I like the idea of the Captain being a strong yet reasonable authority figure who sort of sits in the background much of the time while the show focuses on lower-ranking people. Most of my favourite stuff from Sisko is when he fills a similar role, just trying to hold the station together while Quark or Kira or whoever go off on whatever mental adventure they're having that week.

Agreed with Torres, the Doctor and Seven being the choice lineup. Torres in particular is a really underrated character, the writers gave her so much good shit (Dreadnought, Barge of the Dead, Prophecy, Lineage, a bunch more). Paris is a character I like a lot, too, at least after he gets a near-total personality change around Season 3 or 4.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on October 05, 2020, 11:40:50 PM
Good list. I would add Scorpion. My personal favourite, most rewatches, though I admit there are stronger episodes. It just plays like a movie for me. Great new villain (later squandered). The Gift makes it a good triple binge.

It's season 3's Unity kicks off the series for me. First season is thin on quality and 2 is uneven. The pilot is good though.

Anyone listening to The Delta Flyers podcast? Garret Wang and Rob McNeill go through episodes. On season 2 at the moment.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on October 05, 2020, 11:46:38 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 05, 2020, 11:40:50 PM
I would add Scorpion. My personal favourite, most rewatches, though I admit there are stronger episodes. It just plays like a movie for me. Great new villain (later squandered). The Gift makes it a good triple binge.

Good shout. Scorpion is a great story.

Quote from: oy vey on October 05, 2020, 11:40:50 PMAnyone listening to The Delta Flyers podcast? Garret Wang and Rob McNeill go through episodes. On season 2 at the moment.

Listened to the pilot but not got round to the rest. Wang is really insightful and has loads of great stories about the production whereas McNeill just repeatedly says he doesn't remember anything.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr_Simnock on October 05, 2020, 11:47:46 PM
As much as I love Janeway she did at too many times become a bit too authoritarian and dismissive of her crew. The doctor could be interesting but had such a grating voice. Seven of nine was great and there are some aspect of Paris that I liked a lot too. Chakotay was almost invisible at times, the weakest No2 in any treck.

(http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x04/Time_and_Again_155.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 05, 2020, 11:49:50 PM
love how it constantly starts an episode like its going to be a holodeck one, then theres a little earthquake, and the space phone lapel thing goes, and theres an emergency in the ship, terminate program

thank fuck!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 05, 2020, 11:51:25 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 05, 2020, 11:40:50 PM
Anyone listening to The Delta Flyers podcast? Garret Wang and Rob McNeill go through episodes. On season 2 at the moment.

Yes, it's a good listen. They're refreshingly honest about the show, McNeill in particular seems somewhat horrified by some of the stuff from series 1. It's interesting to hear him talk about the differences in attitudes with TV production between then and now. Wang doesn't have much of interest to say as he's largely been outside of acting for a while now, mostly working at conventions. I take most of what he says with a pinch of salt anyway, as he always seems to have a story for every situation. "Well I said to the producers at the time ..." No you didn't Garrett.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 05, 2020, 11:53:50 PM
Quote from: Mr_Simnock on October 05, 2020, 11:47:46 PM
Chakotay was almost invisible at times, the weakest No2 in any treck.

The most interesting thing about Chakotay is that the Native American cultures expert they hired to advise on the character turned out to be a massive fraud who was making it all up. Which is why none of it made sense.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 05, 2020, 11:55:37 PM
Quote from: JamesTC on October 05, 2020, 08:16:20 PM
Endgame was basically the opposite of Timeless. Endgame was a crewmember going back in time to convince them to get home through dangerous means whereas Timeless was a crewmember stopping them getting home through dangerous means. Plus Endgame was rubbish and Timeless was brilliant.

In general though they were both about crew members going back in time to fix a mistake. Which is what I was going for. And yes, Endgame is rubbish.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 06, 2020, 12:03:57 AM
chakotay is a glorious laid back sexbeast, i dont care if all of his history is made up racist bollocks
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Nobody Soup on October 06, 2020, 12:06:29 AM
whether you think Janeway is too good or too authoritarian I don't think she ever damaged the drama of the show, where you want to rank her as a captain is personal taste but as a character she's absolutely an asset. Archer from Enterprise is kinda the same, though he's more in the camp of being an actual shit captain (or at least nothing like the sort of person we should have been sending out to conduct numerous first contacts with) but as someone who makes stories get from A to B he's fine.

The only really iffy problem with Voyager is the whole Maquis thing, which was conceived, I think, to generate tension and conflict in the crew, never really amounts to anything and if you missed the first episodes then I think you could watch whole series' without being aware this dynamic even existed. Also somewhat on Chakotay, their supposed leader, who is one of the worst characters in the whole franchise, a completely bland, uninteresting wet blanket (he's worse than Neelix imo). The most unconvincing Janeway moments in the show are her banging on about what rock he is and how much she values his support, because for the most part she seems to find him completely unnecessary.

Anyway, yes, Voyager is great, probably my favourite if I'm honest.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 06, 2020, 12:10:25 AM
the fuck dudes, chakotay is a babe
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on October 06, 2020, 01:09:16 AM
Chakotay is so funny, even just as a concept. Glorified middle manager. 90% of his screentime is just people coming to him asking for like a shift change or whatever, and him approving it. Plus his constant hard-on for "nature" adds more inherent comedy to the character. Love the early episode where him and Janeway get stranded on a planet for an extended time, and Janeway starts doing actual useful things (like trying to find a way back to Voyager) while Chakotay sits around making sad little chairs out of wood and saying dumb shit like "you know, Kathryn, this really puts us in touch with nature" and "maybe it's not so bad down here".

Also love the episode where he crashes on that war-torn planet and falls hard for alien propaganda. "I'LL NULLIFY ALL OF YOU!!!". Dumbass!

He is kind of a babe, but that's mainly just Robert Beltran. The Chakotay character's overwhelming blandness manages to actually somehow negate Beltran's attractiveness. Chakotay is at his best in the latter seasons, where Beltran just walks onto the bridge and doesn't even play the Chakotay character anymore, clearly having not read the script outside his own lines, and clearly not giving a shit at this point. It's not even Chakotay on the screen now, it's just Robert Beltran. All the other actors are still trying, so it creates the beautifully surreal effect of seeing a great sci-fi drama play out on the screen, then suddenly it cuts to Robert Beltran - not Chakotay, just actor Robert Beltran - sat in a plastic chair saying something like "systems are at 50%!" in a monotone voice, before disappearing for the rest of the episode.

Beltran was also occasionally great when given good material, but I liked him far better after he completely stopped trying.

Quote from: oy vey on October 05, 2020, 11:40:50 PMAnyone listening to The Delta Flyers podcast? Garret Wang and Rob McNeill go through episodes. On season 2 at the moment.

It's a good podcast. They both come across really well, especially Robbie McNeill who is probably the most laconic and chilled out person I've ever heard, which plays nicely against Garrett Wang's hyperactive "YOU KNOW, AS AN ACTOR, SOMETIMES YOU'VE GOTTA PUSH FOR A BIGGER ROLE AND ANYWAY I WAS JUST GETTING INTO APHEX TWIN BACK IN 1997 SO I WENT TO THE FLOOR MANAGER AND I SAID 'HEY, YOU NEED TO PAY THE EXTRAS MORE' AND SHE SAID 'GARRETT, LISTEN, PATRICK STEWART WAS HERE THE OTHER DAY AND HE WAS SAYING HE LOVES YOUR WORK'" anecdotes that go on for like half an hour.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 06, 2020, 01:11:31 AM
Quote from: Lemming on October 06, 2020, 01:09:16 AM

He is kind of a babe, but that's mainly just Robert Beltran.

good point

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 06, 2020, 02:10:41 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on October 05, 2020, 07:57:08 PM
My favourite episodes are:

Eye of the Needle

We recently did a full-Voyager rewatch and were astonished by the quality of this episode. One doesn't generally think of Season 1 Voyager as particularly stand-out Trek, but I think this might be the best-written episode of the whole series. I even wondered if it was an unused TNG script repurposed or something, but it's such a context-specific thing for Voyager I can't quite believe this could be the case. It's so tight, the stakes are at precisely the correct level, and every time something occurred to me like "but what about..." it was swiftly and excitingly addressed. 10/10 and nobody ever remembers or talks about it.

Another underrated one for me is Bliss. It's not perfect but the glimpses into how each character imagines their return to the Alpha Quadrant is quite endearing and intelligent (especially Neelix shaking hands with Starfleet Admirals), compared with Endgame which always felt to me like a bit of a fudge.

There's a general collective memory that Voyager improves when Seven arrives and she IS great, but the quality of writing post-Season 3 is a little weaker in my opinion (still love it though, especially the funny EMH eps) and Kes is universally underrated.

On Kes: I really liked Before and After (the one where she's hopping backwards in time) and the idea of a short-lived humanoid species is inherently interesting: it's weird that people say her character doesn't develop when she literally goes from naive hobbit to Q-like cosmic being via her Elogium and various relationships and the development of telepathic powers!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 06, 2020, 02:19:26 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 05, 2020, 11:40:50 PM
Anyone listening to The Delta Flyers podcast? Garret Wang and Rob McNeill go through episodes. On season 2 at the moment.

It's good and I like those chaps but I'm ultimately not interested enough in Trek production. I watch it to escape, I think.

On the subject of pods though: Greatest Generation anyone? They're a few weeks away from completing DS9 so they'll be on Voyager soon. It's genuinely funny, in the right spirit ("a star trek poscast by two guys who are a little bit embarrassed to have a star trek podcast"), and with a strong and good-natured community around it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Phil_A on October 06, 2020, 02:21:04 PM
It was often amazes me how opinions on Voyager have turned around in the last twenty years or so. I used to read the fan reviews that got posted as the episodes were going out and week-after-week Voyager got pasted. Possibly that did colour my opinion of the show, although I think I'd still agree with many of those criticisms.

To be fair I did enjoy quite a few episodes at the time, looking back on the series just kind of leaves me with lingering disappointment that it played it safe far too often and never lived up the possibilities of the premise. I was left with the feeling Paramount just wanted more episodic Trek after the extremely unconventional, arc-heavy DS9, and ultimately the Lost In Space premise of Voyager is just window-dressing for fairly standard space adventures. Oddly it is closer to the original conception of Trek as "Wagon Train In Space" - no matter how far they go they never really actually get anywhere.

They'd pay lip-service to things like supply shortages but these never amount to anything that really affects the story to a major degree. I was always frustrated by the fact that they'd tease major plot and character developments but then not follow through on them - The Year Of Hell is a classic example. Maybe it was too much for that all to happen in two episodes, but imagine if they'd actually committed to those developments taking place across a whole season.

Seven is a good character, but after a certain point it felt like her and Janeway(and occasionally the Doctor) became the only characters, which was around the time I started to lose interest. Damn near everyone else on the ship was painfully underdeveloped, stuck in a rut like Eternal Ensign Harry Kim or completely irrelevant like Chakotay.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Cloud on October 06, 2020, 02:31:58 PM
In retrospect Voyager was pretty good and doubt it's a spoiler to say there's one episode towards the end that acts like a clip show homage that really made me look back on it quite fondly.

However, when I watched all the Star Treks about a decade ago, I did watch them in order of airing (so that included things like, starting to watch Voyager in parallel to later DS9) and could totally see where the criticism came from.  When you're in the middle of DS9 and have watched story arcs created, changes happen over time  and general good long-term thinking in the writing, it's disappointing when you see the same POTENTIAL in Voyager (progressing home is an obvious ongoing story, could've had more stories about a ship falling apart with nowhere for repairs, running out of shuttlecraft (lol), potential for long term conflicts with the Maquis crew etc) but end up with the reset button pushed at the end of every episode.  Even though this was no different to TOS or TNG, it felt a little bit lazy in context of being in DS9's shadow.

It's when you revisit it later without such expectations that I think you can really enjoy it for what it is.

Did kind of become "The Doctor Seven Show" towards the end.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on October 06, 2020, 02:46:26 PM
It's true that Voyager often abandons its premise, but it's unfair that people never criticise TOS and TNG for doing the exact same thing. A 5 (or 7) year mission out into the vast unknown reaches of deep space, far beyond the Federation's borders, where no one has gone before... except we can somehow turn around and go back to Earth instantly any time Worf's parents want a lift somewhere, supplies are never an issue, and the ship will always be repaired a day later no matter how severely it gets fucked up. Shoutout to TOS for at least occasionally giving lip-service by having Uhura calculate that the ship is so far away from Federation space that communications will take a day or two.

Voyager has some sense of progression, in that they move out of Kazon space (thank fuck) and into Vidiian space, then through Hirogen space into Borg space, and then through the space of those weird guys who have big pollution-ships full of toxic waste. Plus the show has a little more continuity than TNG - episodes like Course: Oblivion and The Voyager Conspiracy basically require you to have watched every episode up to that point to get the most out of them, and Seven has a reasonably clear arc of development across the series.

I'm glad the writers went for episodic if it's what they were comfortable with. They tried story arcs in Season 2 with Paris-is-going-to-spy-on-the-Kazon and there's-a-defector-on-board, and they were so irredeemably awful and ended up getting in the way of some otherwise decent episodic stuff. I wasn't a huge fan of DS9's later story arcs either, everything to do with the Dominion War ended up feeling really overwrought IMO, and the less said about the Prophets/Pah-Wraiths stuff and the final Dukat episodes, the better. Seeing the state of Discovery and Picard's terrible serialised arcs makes me think Star Trek writers probably just work best when they're shitting out an endless stream of one-and-done ideas and then seeing how many are worth making into episodes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Kelvin on October 06, 2020, 02:48:09 PM
Quote from: Phil_A on October 06, 2020, 02:21:04 PM
It was often amazes me how opinions on Voyager have turned around in the last twenty years or so.

Surely a big part of this was the direction the films and TV shows took post-Voyager. From the anaemic Enterprise and latter TNG films, to the shallow nostalgia of the Abrams films and the cynical melodrama of the recent series. Voyager has ended up being the last time Star Trek looked and felt like the Star Trek people loved. At the time, it felt like ship-based Trek was in a rut and needed shaking up. Now, in hindsight, it seems like the last time it had it's own identity.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: MojoJojo on October 06, 2020, 03:34:54 PM
Quote from: Lemming on October 06, 2020, 02:46:26 PM
I'm glad the writers went for episodic if it's what they were comfortable with. They tried story arcs in Season 2 with Paris-is-going-to-spy-on-the-Kazon and there's-a-defector-on-board, and they were so irredeemably awful and ended up getting in the way of some otherwise decent episodic stuff.

I think Voyager got a bit stuck between episodic and arc based stuff because of the TV market. TNG pioneered the idea of straight to syndication, and was hugely successful with it (partly due to the liberalisation of EU TV markets). By 1995 there were twenty one hour syndicated dramas in production. To be successful in syndication it was believed that a series should be episodic and have basically no continuity, regional broadcasters have the freedom to switch episodes and schedules around as they like.

Voyager was conceived as a replacement for TNG, so syndication. But it was also conceived as a flagship for Paramount's new network, UPN, so wasn't syndication first. The syndication market was also becoming very crowded (inspired by TNGs success), and it was also shrinking in the US due in part to UPN and The WB starting up. So the first season or so definitely had a slightly awkward feeling that it didn't quite know whether to be TNG or DS9.

If I actually watched some I could probably say something interesting instead of waffling on about the mid-nineties TV market.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 06, 2020, 03:40:14 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on October 06, 2020, 02:10:41 PM
We recently did a full-Voyager rewatch and were astonished by the quality of this episode. One doesn't generally think of Season 1 Voyager as particularly stand-out Trek, but I think this might be the best-written episode of the whole series. I even wondered if it was an unused TNG script repurposed or something, but it's such a context-specific thing for Voyager I can't quite believe this could be the case. It's so tight, the stakes are at precisely the correct level, and every time something occurred to me like "but what about..." it was swiftly and excitingly addressed. 10/10 and nobody ever remembers or talks about it.

Another underrated one for me is Bliss. It's not perfect but the glimpses into how each character imagines their return to the Alpha Quadrant is quite endearing and intelligent (especially Neelix shaking hands with Starfleet Admirals), compared with Endgame which always felt to me like a bit of a fudge.

There's a general collective memory that Voyager improves when Seven arrives and she IS great, but the quality of writing post-Season 3 is a little weaker in my opinion (still love it though, especially the funny EMH eps) and Kes is universally underrated.

On Kes: I really liked Before and After (the one where she's hopping backwards in time) and the idea of a short-lived humanoid species is inherently interesting: it's weird that people say her character doesn't develop when she literally goes from naive hobbit to Q-like cosmic being via her Elogium and various relationships and the development of telepathic powers!

Yea kes is great, and it's a great performance too

They should have ditched someone else instead of her to get 7 of nine in.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: crankshaft on October 06, 2020, 04:05:54 PM
Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on October 06, 2020, 03:40:14 PM
Yea kes is great, and it's a great performance too

They should have ditched someone else instead of her to get 7 of nine in.

They were going to; Garrett Wang was facing the axe - he'd wound up the producers through his lackadaisical attitude and his chronic lateness. But then, he was chosen by People Magazine as one of the "50 Most Beautiful People In The World", and they decided they'd better hold on to him. And that's all she wrote for Jennifer Lien.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: greenman on October 06, 2020, 04:21:13 PM
Quote from: Lemming on October 05, 2020, 10:34:57 PMTorres in particular is a really underrated character, the writers gave her so much good shit (Dreadnought, Barge of the Dead, Prophecy, Lineage, a bunch more). Paris is a character I like a lot, too, at least after he gets a near-total personality change around Season 3 or 4.

You could argue she was a rare case of Trek really looking to deconstruct Klingons, compared to say the Cardassians in DS9 there tended to be much less questioning of their basic nature/values.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 06, 2020, 04:39:51 PM
Quote from: crankshaft on October 06, 2020, 04:05:54 PM
They were going to; Garrett Wang was facing the axe - he'd wound up the producers through his lackadaisical attitude and his chronic lateness. But then, he was chosen by People Magazine as one of the "50 Most Beautiful People In The World", and they decided they'd better hold on to him. And that's all she wrote for Jennifer Lien.

Never found garret that sexy until that episode where some alien siren race are kicking about and he's in some sort of robe with his hair hanging down, then I was all like NOW WE KNOW

would be a shame to lose such a cutie, but his character isn't a patch on kes

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 06, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
Yea also torrens is a great king on but also another great character, love how sick of everyone's shit she is. Leadership material
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on October 06, 2020, 04:46:16 PM
On the podcast, Garrett says that the thing about him being saved from the chop after being declared TV's Sexiest Man is not the whole story, and that he'll reveal the true reasons he was kept on/Lien was dropped when they reach that point in the rewatch.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr_Simnock on October 06, 2020, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: Lemming on October 06, 2020, 01:09:16 AM
Chakotay is so funny, even just as a concept. Glorified middle manager. 90% of his screentime is just people coming to him asking for like a shift change or whatever, and him approving it.

Clearly Chackotay is a space Syd to hot sexy mature slightly dominearing mommy next door sex fantasy Janeways space Eddie.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9c/8a/58/9c8a58c96d5d19cce56bd7578cec7809.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Phil_A on October 06, 2020, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: Lemming on October 06, 2020, 04:46:16 PM
On the podcast, Garrett says that the thing about him being saved from the chop after being declared TV's Sexiest Man is not the whole story, and that he'll reveal the true reasons he was kept on/Lien was dropped when they reach that point in the rewatch.

I remember the rumour back then was she had drinking problems, that might've just been malicious gossip though.

Recent news stories about her have been pure desolation though, properly sad stuff. Mental health issues rather than drink-related though
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on October 06, 2020, 06:58:34 PM
Quote from: Lemming on October 06, 2020, 04:46:16 PM
On the podcast, Garrett says that the thing about him being saved from the chop after being declared TV's Sexiest Man is not the whole story, and that he'll reveal the true reasons he was kept on/Lien was dropped when they reach that point in the rewatch.

Wasn't either Berman or Braga doing Jeri Ryan at the time, wanted to get her on the show and had to cut Kes for both screentime and budget reasons to add Seven?

Or does it relate to the... eh... troubles Jennifer Lien has had since quitting acting.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on October 06, 2020, 07:48:38 PM
Love this thread...

I was pissed when Kes was booted though The Gift was a beautiful send off (just don't bring up Fury). Before and After is great. Nice change of hair style but the whole breaking up with Neelix was abrupt. I felt at the time Neelix or Harry should have gone but at least Wang had a great episode with Timeless. Future Harry was edgy and rather satisfying I must say.

Did Neelix ever have a good episode? He got more bearable I'll give him that. The Doc got more annoying after that episode where he wanted to leave Voyager to become an opera singer. I think Unity was a decent Chakotay episode but it's the only one I can think of. For the rest, they had many a good ep.

On Jeri Ryan shagging a producer it was Braga. He was well hated by the fans at that point for stating he never saw an episode of TOS. Porking Seven was another nail in the coffin.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 06, 2020, 07:56:02 PM
He only dated her after she joined the show though, so had nothing to do with her hiring. I suspect the real reason for Lien's dropping was exactly as the rumour says above, it was gonna be Wang due to a poor attitude, but he was saved by the beautiful people list. It was also the reason he wasn't given the chance to direct on the show despite his claims that it was racism. You know like how Tim Russ & Roxanne Dawson never got a chance to direct Voyager because they weren't white ...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 06, 2020, 07:57:14 PM
As for Lien's troubles I think they only began after she left the show. Everyone on the show says she was shy and introverted, but there are no claims of her being difficult or having issues.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: crankshaft on October 06, 2020, 09:55:38 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 06, 2020, 07:48:38 PM
Did Neelix ever have a good episode?

"Mortal Coil" is quite thoughtful. "Jetrel" is OK. Otherwise, it's Quark's castoff waistcoats, Naomi Wildman and Mr. Vulcan stamping on a human face, forever.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Dropshadow on October 07, 2020, 12:22:55 AM
At the time, Voyager was always my least favourite of all the Treks. I didn't like Janeway's voice - it really, really irritated me. I didn't like Kes, Neelix, Chakotay, Torres, Tom fuckin' Paris, or bland Harry Kim. But Tuvok was OK, and the doctor was, for me, the breakout character. When Seven joined the series the whole thing improved, and it wasn't just because of the outfits. Oh no.

Later, though, I began to appreciate it more and now it's in second place, below DS9. Super.

I don't know much about "classic" film stars, but check out Katherine Hepburn in the wonderfully overacted 1968 British film "The Lion in Winter" which I saw about a year ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_in_Winter_(1968_film)

Her mannerisms and way of talking are completely ripped off by Mulgrew's captain. It's so obvious. Just a fun fact.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on October 07, 2020, 09:11:09 AM
Best Neelix scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVdH1GomPTk&ab_channel=MirandaDuVal
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: SavageHedgehog on October 07, 2020, 09:23:48 AM
I enjoyed the first three Seasons quite a bit at the time but, disgrace to straight teenage boys everywhere that I was, I lost interest when Seven Of Nine was added. Seemed to me to become a tackier, dumber show all ways round at that point though.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on October 07, 2020, 10:16:04 AM
Quote from: SavageHedgehog on October 07, 2020, 09:23:48 AM
I enjoyed the first three Seasons quite a bit at the time but, disgrace to straight teenage boys everywhere that I was, I lost interest when Seven Of Nine was added. Seemed to me to become a tackier, dumber show all ways round at that point though.

That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[nb]BANGERS![/nb], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on October 07, 2020, 10:28:00 AM
Quote from: Blumf on October 07, 2020, 10:16:04 AM
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[nb]BANGERS![/nb]

To completely shatter the teenage illusion and make it worse, she's at least 30% padding in Voyager.

Look at her in anything else other than Voyager. They're normal rather than "ow! Back pain!"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on October 07, 2020, 11:16:57 AM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on October 07, 2020, 10:28:00 AM
They're normal rather than "ow! Back pain!"

Yeah, although, apparently she did have a disc replaced:
https://twitter.com/jerilryan/status/1202632142477348864?lang=en

Doubt it's bangers related.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on October 07, 2020, 11:28:17 AM
Quote from: Blumf on October 07, 2020, 10:16:04 AM
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[nb]BANGERS![/nb], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.

No no. She is a kick ass suicidal murderer now. You must be a sexist if you don't think that is good character development.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: The Culture Bunker on October 07, 2020, 11:38:32 AM
I quite liked Voyager at the time, not really revisited it much. There were a couple of characters that irritated the kex off me (ie Neelix), but Tuvak was always good value, as was the Doctor and it was nice when Barclay turned up for a guest spot.

Plus - attractive ladies, always a boon back when I was a young 'un.

However, thinking of it now, there's not much about the show I remember beyond the 'Year in Hell' two parter, the one where Paris and the Cap end up turning into weird fish creatures and the finale.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: SavageHedgehog on October 07, 2020, 11:56:19 AM
Quote from: Blumf on October 07, 2020, 10:16:04 AM
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[nb]BANGERS![/nb], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.

Yeah, one of these days I'll give the later years a proper shot. Think I was just moving out of a Star Trek phase after being bored by Insurrection, possibly had less easy access to watching it or something around this time as well.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Cloud on October 07, 2020, 12:10:35 PM
Quote from: Blumf on October 07, 2020, 10:16:04 AM
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[nb]BANGERS![/nb], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.


Gah, I'd just nicely put her character assassination out of my mind.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 07, 2020, 09:21:09 PM
Quote from: Blumf on October 07, 2020, 10:16:04 AM
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[nb]BANGERS![/nb], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.

yea she does haughty prescision really amazing, but with undercurrents. would have loved a spinoff where her and the doctor start a private detective agency
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: beanheadmcginty on October 08, 2020, 12:39:50 AM
Always loved Star Trek. Lucky enough to have seen it as a kid in the correct order due to TOS being repeated when I was a nipper and then TNG starting it's original run. But when Voyager started my brain somehow took against it. I hated Mulgrew's voice, that Klingon woman wasn't Klingon enough and Neelix appeared to be the worst conceived Dan Aykroyd character ever. Only started watching it again when Seven of Nine appeared, which happily coincided with my peak wanking era. Still couldn't tell you a single thing that happened in any episode as I would turn it over immediately after completion of the task in hand. I might try watching it again. I'll probably be more circumspect about the annoying characters now I've mellowed but I definitely won't be able to maintain the same ruthlessly pursued wanking schedule.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 08, 2020, 12:45:50 AM
suspect this is a classic shit argument,

but i like neelix's character, because he is annoying. like thats his character. a berk

theres gonna be berks in space guys comeon
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Nobody Soup on October 08, 2020, 02:08:01 AM
Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on October 08, 2020, 12:45:50 AM
suspect this is a classic shit argument,

but i like neelix's character, because he is annoying. like thats his character. a berk

theres gonna be berks in space guys comeon

No. Neelix was kind of OK, his relationship with tuvoc was fun too, if only because tuvoc often verbalised what the fans thought about him (i.e. He was a berk).

Always felt kinda like he was gaslighting kes into having a relationship though, which was a lot less cute than "lol I put custard on a pizza.".
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 08, 2020, 01:46:11 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 06, 2020, 07:48:38 PM
Did Neelix ever have a good episode?

Does Tuvix count?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 08, 2020, 01:50:12 PM
Quote from: Dropshadow on October 07, 2020, 12:22:55 AM
Later, though, I began to appreciate it more and now it's in second place, below DS9. Super.

Trek ranked:

TNG
DS9
TOS
VOY
TOS movies
TAS
TNG movies
ENT
Weetabix stickers
Kelvin Timeline
Short Treks
LD
DIS
PIC

Anyone who disagrees is obviously wrong.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Cloud on October 08, 2020, 02:34:45 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 06, 2020, 07:48:38 PMDid Neelix ever have a good episode?

There's that one a few episodes from the finale when he fucks off.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on October 08, 2020, 02:50:26 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on October 08, 2020, 01:50:12 PM
Trek ranked:

TNG
DS9
TOS
VOY
TOS movies
TAS
TNG movies
ENT
Weetabix stickers
Kelvin Timeline
Short Treks
LD
DIS
PIC

Anyone who disagrees is obviously wrong.

I always put ToS off to the side. I find it hard to judge it against the others because it's very inconsistent and the fact that it's a product of its time shows through every now and then. For every City on the Edge or Doomsday Machine there's a Catspaw or Mudd's Women.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: daf on October 08, 2020, 03:16:44 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on October 08, 2020, 01:50:12 PM
Trek ranked:

Star Trek : Orville?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on October 08, 2020, 03:33:02 PM
Quote from: daf on October 08, 2020, 03:16:44 PM
Star Trek : Orville?

Orville goes at the bottom under Michael Burnham's stools.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on October 08, 2020, 03:49:09 PM
Quote from: daf on October 08, 2020, 03:16:44 PM
Star Trek : Orville?
Above everything post 2005 anyway.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on October 08, 2020, 04:34:43 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on October 08, 2020, 01:50:12 PM
Trek ranked:
...

Anyone who disagrees is obviously wrong.

I think you rated Picard and Discovery too high
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on October 08, 2020, 04:45:16 PM
Ranking the series is tough because they're all defined by massive highs and gobsmackingly shite lows, TNG especially which manages to have some of the absolute best and absolute worst of Star Trek.

I think, with TNG, DS9 and VOY, if you scraped together all the good episodes, skipping over the bad and decent-but-unremarkable episodes, you'd probably get 3 or 4 full seasons' worth of quality from each show.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 08, 2020, 04:48:38 PM
To be fair, I don't know many shows that did 26 episodes a year over 7 years that would have a better average. Maybe the first 7 years of X-Files. Very few stinkers in that run.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on October 08, 2020, 06:03:32 PM
Admiral Janeway returning in Star Trek: Prodigy. Must be a decent sized role for them to announce it and not just a cameo.

http://blog.trekcore.com/2020/10/star-trek-prodigy-kate-mulgrew-captain-janeway-casting/
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 08, 2020, 06:13:01 PM
Quote from: Nobody Soup on October 08, 2020, 02:08:01 AM
No. Neelix was kind of OK, his relationship with tuvoc was fun too, if only because tuvoc often verbalised what the fans thought about him (i.e. He was a berk).

Always felt kinda like he was gaslighting kes into having a relationship though, which was a lot less cute than "lol I put custard on a pizza.".

Yea his relationship with kes is well unbalanced, he's a needy childish git in that relationship, proper reddit manboy stuff, no wonder kes told him to shove it
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 08, 2020, 06:16:47 PM
Quote from: Malcy on October 08, 2020, 06:03:32 PM
Admiral Janeway returning in Star Trek: Prodigy. Must be a decent sized role for them to announce it and not just a cameo.

http://blog.trekcore.com/2020/10/star-trek-prodigy-kate-mulgrew-captain-janeway-casting/

Sadly just in animated form.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: dr_christian_troy on October 08, 2020, 06:37:32 PM
Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on October 08, 2020, 06:13:01 PM
Yea his relationship with kes is well unbalanced, he's a needy childish git in that relationship, proper reddit manboy stuff, no wonder kes told him to shove it

Also the references to her only being 1 or 2 years old was mildly unnerving, out of context.[nb]Also, in[/nb]
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on October 08, 2020, 06:47:43 PM
Kes being roughly akin to a functioning human adult (or at least a late teen) at 2 years old is problematic generally. Even if a lifeform with such a complex brain could biologically mature that fast, it's somewhat improbable she'd have been able to develop the same educational, linguistic, social and emotional skills and standards in 2 years that it takes us 18 to reach.

Also the fact that they can only give birth once in their life means their species should die out. Unless they all have twins & triplets, but I'm sure Kes talks about having a child, when the process is accidentally triggered early in her.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 08, 2020, 06:50:43 PM
It was a different time, the 24th century
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on October 08, 2020, 07:08:04 PM
Everything about Kes's alien biology was stupid. Lien's best episode is Warlord where she's not even really Kes in it. She also dumps Neelix in that episode when possessed but everyone just pretends it was the real Kes who did it because they hate Neelix.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: dr_christian_troy on October 08, 2020, 07:08:45 PM
I feel Neelix from Voyager and Phlox from Enterprise would have got along well, for some reason. I infinitely prefer Phlox between the two (so far), as he seems deeply sinister - in the complicated fluctuation of morbidity and light humour as a doctor - rather being an annoying nonce chef.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on October 08, 2020, 08:03:44 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on October 08, 2020, 01:46:11 PM
Does Tuvix count?

Sort of except I thought Tuvix was a bit of a dick. Is that cold? Whenever Neelix was paired with Tuvok (not literally there) it felt contrived, like they were doing an Odo-Quark episode. Riddles was okay. And kind of yes to Mortal Coil though it felt a little empty.

I forgot Warlord was when Kes dumped Neelix. Shows how well written it was...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 08, 2020, 08:13:25 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on October 08, 2020, 07:08:04 PM
Everything about Kes's alien biology was stupid. Lien's best episode is Warlord where she's not even really Kes in it. She also dumps Neelix in that episode when possessed but everyone just pretends it was the real Kes who did it because they hate Neelix.

dumb backstory, good character
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 08, 2020, 08:14:15 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on October 08, 2020, 07:08:04 PM
Everything about Kes's alien biology was stupid. Lien's best episode is Warlord where she's not even really Kes in it. She also dumps Neelix in that episode when possessed but everyone just pretends it was the real Kes who did it because they hate Neelix.

yea she plays an excellent dickhead
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 08, 2020, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 08, 2020, 08:03:44 PM
Sort of except I thought Tuvix was a bit of a dick. Is that cold? Whenever Neelix was paired with Tuvok (not literally there) it felt contrived, like they were doing an Odo-Quark episode. Riddles was okay. And kind of yes to Mortal Coil though it felt a little empty.

I forgot Warlord was when Kes dumped Neelix. Shows how well written it was...

yea not arsed in the episodes where tuvok just rolls his eyes at cunts

prefer it when he has more to do
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 08, 2020, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: Lemming on October 08, 2020, 04:45:16 PM
Ranking the series is tough because they're all defined by massive highs and gobsmackingly shite lows, TNG especially which manages to have some of the absolute best and absolute worst of Star Trek.

I think, with TNG, DS9 and VOY, if you scraped together all the good episodes, skipping over the bad and decent-but-unremarkable episodes, you'd probably get 3 or 4 full seasons' worth of quality from each show.

With some notable exceptions I like the bad ones. I genuinely enjoy Threshold! And I have a soft spot for Move Along Home. I love Spock's Brain. Profit and Lace isn't great but I don't hate it like people seem to. Up the Long Ladder is just about okay (the Irish stuff is actually over quite quickly and we arrive at nice typical diplomacy episode). You can throw things at me, I don't mind.

I'm not into Fair Haven to be fair. The Child is horrible (I've reminded you of it now - you're welcome! Was that kid actually called Ian???) and Sacred Ground is bollocks. Nemesis (the episode). The one where Chuckles is a boxer. I've tried but those are all gross.

Something I keep thinking (and have probably said in one of the Trek threads here) is that I don't mind naff ideas or continuity problems if I'm having a good time. Just being in the TNG/DS9/VOY world is almost enough for me to be having a good time. PIC/DIS is the polar opposite of this, where I'm stiffed for continuity AND I feel bored and miserable.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on October 08, 2020, 09:21:37 PM
What's up with Sacred Ground? Janeway on an ayahuasca trip turns her back on science. Until the next episode. Spock's Brain is lovely though.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on October 08, 2020, 10:14:27 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on October 08, 2020, 08:52:34 PM
With some notable exceptions I like the bad ones. I genuinely enjoy Threshold! And I have a soft spot for Move Along Home. I love Spock's Brain. Profit and Lace isn't great but I don't hate it like people seem to. Up the Long Ladder is just about okay (the Irish stuff is actually over quite quickly and we arrive at nice typical diplomacy episode). You can throw things at me, I don't mind.

I like all those too! Except for Profit and Lace, which I don't really hate, it's just another standard-issue boring Ferengi episode. I agree that most of the notoriously bad episodes are actually entertaining (I also love Sub Rosa and Catspaw), but I was thinking more of stuff like latter-era TNG, especially Season 7. I ended up cutting my last rewatch short midway through the last season. Phantasms, Man of the People, Dark Page, Masks, Eye of the Beholder, Aquiel, all really dull IMO. Even the ones with good ideas like Schisms are somehow executed in a kind of boring, plodding way. I tend to write off most of the last two seasons of DS9 as well, mostly because it gets so convoluted and melodramatic that I stop caring about what's happening.


Quote from: oy vey on October 08, 2020, 09:21:37 PM
What's up with Sacred Ground? Janeway on an ayahuasca trip turns her back on science. Until the next episode. Spock's Brain is lovely though.

Yeah, the ending really winds me up. It's great that they actually do include a straightforward scientific explanation for what happened, delivered by the Doctor, but I never understood why Janeway's still all spaced-out at the end. I suppose you could say she was still feeling contemplative after having her worldview very viscerally challenged, even if it was ultimately reaffirmed.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Cloud on October 08, 2020, 10:29:53 PM
Drink whenever Harry Kim can't get a lock, or when Tom Paris makes some quip under his breath as he turns back to his console

Quote from: dr_christian_troy on October 08, 2020, 07:08:45 PM
I feel Neelix from Voyager and Phlox from Enterprise would have got along well, for some reason. I infinitely prefer Phlox between the two (so far), as he seems deeply sinister - in the complicated fluctuation of morbidity and light humour as a doctor - rather being an annoying nonce chef.

Billingsley (Phlox) also played a complete psycho in the Orville alongside Picardo!

Don't know if it's a disability or just a habit, but he was doing the same thing of talking out of the side of his mouth, which I used to assume was just his way of making Phlox more alien-y.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 09, 2020, 12:20:50 AM
im sorry captain, i cant get a lock on them, were only half way through the episode
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wentworth Smith on October 09, 2020, 12:36:52 AM
'I've lost helm control.... again'
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on October 09, 2020, 12:38:09 AM
Shields down to 54%
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wentworth Smith on October 09, 2020, 12:41:53 AM
Quote from: JamesTC on October 09, 2020, 12:38:09 AM
Shields down to 54%

Divert power to forward shields
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Cloud on October 09, 2020, 01:01:45 AM
Sorry Captain, the replacement shuttle is still being replicated
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on October 09, 2020, 01:04:04 AM
Your harry kim is in another cave system
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Nobody Soup on October 09, 2020, 02:55:30 AM
Quote from: oy vey on October 06, 2020, 07:48:38 PM
Love this thread...

I was pissed when Kes was booted though The Gift was a beautiful send off (just don't bring up Fury). Before and After is great. Nice change of hair style but the whole breaking up with Neelix was abrupt. I felt at the time Neelix or Harry should have gone but at least Wang had a great episode with Timeless. Future Harry was edgy and rather satisfying I must say.

Did Neelix ever have a good episode? He got more bearable I'll give him that. The Doc got more annoying after that episode where he wanted to leave Voyager to become an opera singer. I think Unity was a decent Chakotay episode but it's the only one I can think of. For the rest, they had many a good ep.



Waking moments is a good chakotay episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 09, 2020, 04:42:02 PM
Quote from: Nobody Soup on October 09, 2020, 02:55:30 AM
Waking moments is a good chakotay episode.

You're right as well. Seeing the moon and tapping the back of the hand. Good, fun stuff AND grounded in character. Good call.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 09, 2020, 04:49:21 PM
Quote from: Lemming on October 08, 2020, 10:14:27 PM
I like all those too!

Let's get married! I will dress as Quark. Not just at the wedding. Every day until one of us dies. You in?

.
.
.

Look, it's a simple yes or no question.

Quote from: Lemming on October 08, 2020, 10:14:27 PM
Except for Profit and Lace, which I don't really hate, it's just another standard-issue boring Ferengi episode. I agree that most of the notoriously bad episodes are actually entertaining (I also love Sub Rosa and Catspaw),

To be clear, I don't enjoy Threshold etc because they're bad. I genuinely like them. Funnily though, you've alighted on two episodes I do sort of enjoy for their badness. I rarely watch Sub Rosa but it's certainly got Best of the Worst appeal. At least it's not boring.

Quote from: Lemming on October 08, 2020, 10:14:27 PM
but I was thinking more of stuff like latter-era TNG, especially Season 7. I ended up cutting my last rewatch short midway through the last season. Phantasms, Man of the People, Dark Page, Masks, Eye of the Beholder, Aquiel, all really dull IMO. Even the ones with good ideas like Schisms are somehow executed in a kind of boring, plodding way. I tend to write off most of the last two seasons of DS9 as well, mostly because it gets so convoluted and melodramatic that I stop caring about what's happening.

I like Schisms! You've certainly named some non-favourites there though. I'd still watch them but they're below the equator of TNG goodness.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 09, 2020, 04:54:12 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 08, 2020, 09:21:37 PM
What's up with Sacred Ground? Janeway on an ayahuasca trip turns her back on science. Until the next episode. Spock's Brain is lovely though.

I think it's an aesthetic aversion more than the story. There's just something so dull about all those cave systems and candles. And the 'but this was the test' is so naff.

Fun story: I was on a date once and it came up that I like Star Trek (what was I thinking?). The guy said his sister had written an episode of Voyager. For some reason, I said, "It wasn't Sacred Ground was it?" Well, of course it was. It was only a 1/172 chance or something.

I looked into it and she did write the script but was lumped with a'story by' credit because they diddled with the script beyond a certain point or something.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on October 09, 2020, 04:57:12 PM
Spock's Brain is fun in a B-Movie sort of way. Threshold can't really have the same enjoyment as they should really no better by that point when they are taking things way too far but it is still okay until the final transformation. After the final transformation begins and Paris steals Janeway to turn into a salamander it is just batshit crazy so I guess I should credit the bravery.

I used to find Profit and Lace fun but on my recent rewatch I really hated how it pushed Quark's character into a deeply disturbing direction. He is a money grubbing arse but he has a heart to him that puts him above most Ferengi (aside from his brother and nephew). To see him sexually pressure and blackmail a well-loved waitress at his bar is out of order and colours anything he does before and after.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on October 09, 2020, 08:51:36 PM
Quote from: Nobody Soup on October 09, 2020, 02:55:30 AM
Waking moments is a good chakotay episode.

Quote from: Mobbd on October 09, 2020, 04:42:02 PM
You're right as well. Seeing the moon and tapping the back of the hand. Good, fun stuff AND grounded in character. Good call.

The lucid dreaming one, yes. I was thinking maybe Shattered as well, though it's more Janeway but I enjoyed maquis-Chakotay.

Quote from: Mobbd on October 09, 2020, 04:54:12 PM
I think it's an aesthetic aversion more than the story. There's just something so dull about all those cave systems and candles. And the 'but this was the test' is so naff.

Fun story: I was on a date once and it came up that I like Star Trek (what was I thinking?). The guy said his sister had written an episode of Voyager. For some reason, I said, "It wasn't Sacred Ground was it?" Well, of course it was. It was only a 1/172 chance or something.

I looked into it and she did write the script but was lumped with a'story by' credit because they diddled with the script beyond a certain point or something.

Nice anecdote. I assume she didn't write that naff Doc medic-babble explanation. Chakotay was out of character and the lighting, costumes, etc. sucked yes, but I enjoyed Janeway tripping balls.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 11, 2020, 03:47:59 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 09, 2020, 08:51:36 PM
I was thinking maybe Shattered as well, though it's more Janeway but I enjoyed maquis-Chakotay.

That one's watchable but there's something weird about it. It's not literally a clipshow but bringing back all of that old stuff felt a bit clip show-adjacent, doesn't it? And the thing about time being shattered feels similar to that Twisted episode. Twisted is better to my mind and it has that touching moment where Tovok places his hand on Janeway's shoulder as the singularity is about to engulf them.

Quote from: oy vey on October 09, 2020, 08:51:36 PM
Nice anecdote. I assume she didn't write that naff Doc medic-babble explanation. Chakotay was out of character and the lighting, costumes, etc. sucked yes, but I enjoyed Janeway tripping balls.

Haha. She might have done, I'm not sure. Something nobody notices about the episode: one of those three monks in Janeway's trial is George Costanza's mum.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 11, 2020, 04:07:38 PM
General point about not liking CBS Trek specifically in relation to Voyager:

All through Voyager, there was an implicit promise that we'd return to the long-established (through TOS/TNG) and now deeply fleshed-out (through DS9) Alpha Quantrant world we knew and loved. That was the direction of travel. Literally!

They'd tease us with little glimpses of Alpha Quadrant life via the Pathfinder project and Message in a Bottle and that Species 82517 recreation of the Academy, etc. I think a lot of fans took those moments as reminders that the world we really loved was still there and therefore as a sort of acknowledgement that the Star Trek Industrial Complex was listening: that they knew we were cool with Voyager up to a point but also that that we really wanted to get back to "the real story" of humanity's future. I think we all assumed we'd join back up with that story sooner or later, all the richer for having returned from our world-building journey through the Delta Quadrant like Sir Walter Raleigh with a big bag of spuds slung over one shoulder.

I think we all assumed there would be a fifth Trek series set after Voyager 's return and somewhere relatively close to Earth and Bajor, with Klingons and Vulcans around. So when that fifth series turned out to be Enterprise, a PREQUAL, it felt like a bit of a letdown. And that's why we're all so mad now: we still, after hundreds of hours of disappointing pseudo-Trek on big and small screens, we're still not back where we want to be. It's not just that we're not there, it's that it was sort-of promised by Voyager. Do you know what I mean?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wentworth Smith on October 11, 2020, 04:52:22 PM
I do and it amazes me that they haven't set a series in that universe... Picard is meant to be but is so all over the place and badly written as to be nonsense. Just think of the universe they have to play with and how badly it is wasted:

20 years after the Dominion war, whats happening with them and the wormhole? Will Sisko ever return? How are the Bajorans doing as part of the Fed?

Romulan homeworld destroyed. There is so much you could do with that but Picard just had some refugees... which makes no sense anyway as there are other Romulan worlds.

How are those the others who took part in the Dominion war faring? The Cardassians were wrecked, the Klingons were presumably lording it about as one of the few stable powers left.

Loads of potential, all of it wasted.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Phil_A on October 11, 2020, 06:43:18 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on October 11, 2020, 04:07:38 PM
General point about not liking CBS Trek specifically in relation to Voyager:

All through Voyager, there was an implicit promise that we'd return to the long-established (through TOS/TNG) and now deeply fleshed-out (through DS9) Alpha Quantrant world we knew and loved. That was the direction of travel. Literally!

They'd tease us with little glimpses of Alpha Quadrant life via the Pathfinder project and Message in a Bottle and that Species 82517 recreation of the Academy, etc. I think a lot of fans took those moments as reminders that the world we really loved was still there and therefore as a sort of acknowledgement that the Star Trek Industrial Complex was listening: that they knew we were cool with Voyager up to a point but also that that we really wanted to get back to "the real story" of humanity's future. I think we all assumed we'd join back up with that story sooner or later, all the richer for having returned from our world-building journey through the Delta Quadrant like Sir Walter Raleigh with a big bag of spuds slung over one shoulder.

I think we all assumed there would be a fifth Trek series set after Voyager 's return and somewhere relatively close to Earth and Bajor, with Klingons and Vulcans around. So when that fifth series turned out to be Enterprise, a PREQUAL, it felt like a bit of a letdown. And that's why we're all so mad now: we still, after hundreds of hours of disappointing pseudo-Trek on big and small screens, we're still not back where we want to be. It's not just that we're not there, it's that it was sort-of promised by Voyager. Do you know what I mean?

Ha. I remember one of the fan predictions at the time was Voyager would get home by the end of the penultimate season, and the final season would be the crew returning home and adjusting to normal life again. In retrospect that was never gonna happen.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on October 11, 2020, 07:57:06 PM
The early get home ticket in Voyager was Suspiria, the second Caretaker lifeform. Basically, if the concept of Voyager being stranded in the Delta Quadrant wasn't washing with fans or the head honchos, they'd use her to teleport the ship back home and have TNG 2.0 for the remainder of the series.

So, once they felt the Delta Q thing was working, they had the episode where they meet Suspiria and she tries to kill them to basically resolve that. After that episode, they were always going to remain in the Delta Quadrant until the series finale.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: greenman on October 11, 2020, 08:20:14 PM
They did also of course always have the Borg as a fall back option to bring Voyage back to more established territory which they ended up taking.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on October 11, 2020, 08:56:00 PM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on October 11, 2020, 07:57:06 PM
After that episode, they were always going to remain in the Delta Quadrant until the series finale.

The original plan was to have them get home at the end of S6 and then have an Alpha/Beta Quadrant set 7th. Wasn't just a fan theory.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Cloud on October 11, 2020, 09:49:04 PM
I'd have liked to see an Alpha Quadrant season.

I always thought Voyager was quite an interesting concept in that the whole premise of Star Trek has been to get out there exploring strange new worlds, but Voyager was all about wanting to go home.   It's perfectly understandable of course.  The desire to explore but still be in touch with where you started.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on October 11, 2020, 10:26:16 PM
Yeah, an alpha arc or a twist where they are required by starfleet to stay in the delta quadrant, to keep an eye on the borg or fight 8472 or some shit. I really feel they pissed away 8472 as a decent adversary unique to Voyager but I suppose they painted themselves into a corner on cgi budgets.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on October 11, 2020, 11:47:30 PM
Quote from: Malcy on October 11, 2020, 08:56:00 PM
The original plan was to have them get home at the end of S6 and then have an Alpha/Beta Quadrant set 7th. Wasn't just a fan theory.

Not heard that before. That alongside the original idea to start Enterprise on earth for half a season were interesting ideas which would have shaken things up temporarily but sadly they were network shows and the network wanted episodic TNG style stories that could interchange in syndication.

The funny thing is I'd now love Trek to just be episodic TNG style stories that could interchange.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on October 12, 2020, 03:53:40 PM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on October 11, 2020, 07:57:06 PM
The early get home ticket in Voyager was Suspiria, the second Caretaker lifeform.

Cold Fire. That was a pretty sweet ep. Felt like a little horror movie.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on March 03, 2021, 06:30:02 PM
They are currently crowdfunding for a Voyager documentary. (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-star-trek-voyager-documentary/x/16235140#/) They've already smashed their initial goals.

The DS9 doc did really well and got great reviews. Personally I thought it was a bit rubbish, but they also made For the Love of Spock, Chaos on the Bridge and The Captains which were all great.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on March 04, 2021, 01:31:30 PM
Quote from: oy vey on October 05, 2020, 11:40:50 PM
Good list. I would add Scorpion. My personal favourite, most rewatches, though I admit there are stronger episodes. It just plays like a movie for me. Great new villain (later squandered). The Gift makes it a good triple binge.

It's season 3's Unity kicks off the series for me. First season is thin on quality and 2 is uneven. The pilot is good though.

Anyone listening to The Delta Flyers podcast? Garret Wang and Rob McNeill go through episodes. On season 2 at the moment.

Have started listening to this podcast, absolutely love it. I really like it when actors clearly enjoy the show they starred in and have a keen interest in talking about it. Be interesting to know how many Trek actors were big fans before starring in the show.

Do you think that the crew of Voyager eat in Neelix's restaurant because they like the food(not sure if they have to ration how many times they use the replicator) or just to be nice to Neelix? Maybe it depends on the character. I suppose it's a place to meet others rather than use the replicator in their room.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on March 04, 2021, 01:54:19 PM
Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on March 04, 2021, 01:31:30 PM
Do you think that the crew of Voyager eat in Neelix's restaurant because they like the food(not sure if they have to ration how many times they use the replicator) or just to be nice to Neelix?

Replicator use is rationed. Plus fresh cooked food is generally considered better than the replicated thing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on March 04, 2021, 04:14:53 PM
Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on March 04, 2021, 01:31:30 PM
Do you think that the crew of Voyager eat in Neelix's restaurant because they like the food(not sure if they have to ration how many times they use the replicator) or just to be nice to Neelix?

Not sure why, but this made me laugh. I love the idea of these Starfleets feeling obliged to be nice to Neelix.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on March 04, 2021, 04:32:27 PM
I think Janeway, Paris and Kim would feel keen to be nice to Neelix if there was a risk of offending him. Not sure about any of the others.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: petril on March 04, 2021, 07:42:57 PM
I think it's more he's casually and cheerfully manage to claim most of the kit and space before anyone else could, in that kinda cheerfully twee sociopathic way. rather than go through a load of rigmarole about cooking and eating rules, they just let him get on with it since everyone's got a scran when they need and there's no rucks yet. bet the senior staff called a meeting just to spend an hour slagging him off in private
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on March 29, 2021, 11:43:02 PM
The Documentary has raised over $1m now and might have some new stuff filmed with the actors that requires negotiations with CBS. New Voyager scenes?

https://trekmovie.com/2021/03/28/exclusive-to-the-journey-producer-hints-at-1m-surprise-says-doc-covers-voyager-controversies/
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on March 30, 2021, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Malcy on March 29, 2021, 11:43:02 PM
The Documentary has raised over $1m now and might have some new stuff filmed with the actors that requires negotiations with CBS. New Voyager scenes?

https://trekmovie.com/2021/03/28/exclusive-to-the-journey-producer-hints-at-1m-surprise-says-doc-covers-voyager-controversies/

Wow, cool. If new scenes, it would surely have to be scenes set "now" (i.e. 20 years or whatever it is after we last saw the Voyager crew - where would that place them, given the flash-forward element of Endgame?) given that everyone has aged and they probably can't dig out the old sets. My guess: some sort of table read. That would have a similar sort of feel to the DS9 writers room segments.

The DS9 documentary really was something, wasn't it? Their other ones like For the Love of Spock are fine and all but were presumably made with a more general audience in mind; the DS9 one was a real deep cut, very knowledgeable and very loving, and it was so nice to luxuriate in DS9 in this way. I'd half-forgotten about those writers room segments but they were the jewel in the crown of the documentary and really quite spesh in their own right. The efforts they went to to interview everyone was worthy of any psycho fan; and I now feel very lucky that they got Rene Auberjonois and Aron Eisenberg.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: dr_christian_troy on March 30, 2021, 11:53:44 AM
I also love that the actor who plays Gowron is featured in the documentary, but just does "the stare" and says nothing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on March 30, 2021, 03:09:04 PM
New scenes set 20 years later sounds amazing - but then I remembered that thanks to Star Trek: Picard, Icheb canonically died by having his eyeballs torn out by an organ harvesting ring, and Seven is canonically a mercenary who goes around vapourising people.

At least things might be looking up for Harry!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on March 30, 2021, 04:11:55 PM
Quote from: Lemming on March 30, 2021, 03:09:04 PM
New scenes set 20 years later sounds amazing - but then I remembered that thanks to Star Trek: Picard, Icheb canonically died by having his eyeballs torn out

Could just have him there with an eyepatch, "I got better"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: dr_christian_troy on March 30, 2021, 05:27:28 PM
Quote from: Blumf on March 30, 2021, 04:11:55 PM
Could just have him there with an eyepatch, "I got better"

I believe the decision to violently kill Icheb was directly in relation to the actor being offensively opinionated on social media. There's been a few questions about how this could have been handled but the general consensus is that the violence in his death scene was extremely pointed and intentional.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on March 30, 2021, 07:43:28 PM
Quote from: dr_christian_troy on March 30, 2021, 05:27:28 PM
I believe the decision to violently kill Icheb was directly in relation to the actor being offensively opinionated on social media. There's been a few questions about how this could have been handled but the general consensus is that the violence in his death scene was extremely pointed and intentional.

He also had a go at Shatner which riled a few people up. Even still. His death added nothing to the story except being a poorly written excuse for 7 to become a totally different character.

Quote from: Lemming on March 30, 2021, 03:09:04 PM
New scenes set 20 years later sounds amazing - but then I remembered that thanks to Star Trek: Picard, Icheb canonically died by having his eyeballs torn out by an organ harvesting ring, and Seven is canonically a mercenary who goes around vapourising people.

At least things might be looking up for Harry!

Thing is, they must have had to scan him first to make sure he had the cortical node or that it was working properly but common logic like that is beyond the Picard writers.

Harry is a Captain in Star Trek Online. Still has a bit of an Ensign naivety at times though.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on March 30, 2021, 08:14:17 PM
https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-first-contact-day/

April 4th of course. A few panels but there will be one for Prodigy featuring Mulgrew.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on March 30, 2021, 09:03:37 PM
Quote from: Lemming on March 30, 2021, 03:09:04 PM
New scenes set 20 years later sounds amazing - but then I remembered that thanks to Star Trek: Picard, Icheb canonically died by having his eyeballs torn out by an organ harvesting ring, and Seven is canonically a mercenary who goes around vapourising people.

At least things might be looking up for Harry!

Come now, Seven vapourised one person. That's a lower murder count than Worf.

And Icheb was, I think, the most boring recurring character in the history of Star Trek. Redundant, too - did Voyager really need a third highly intelligent but emotionally stunted character? Dying in a gruesome fashion was the only interesting thing he ever did. The original actor seems like a bellend as well.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: earl_sleek on March 30, 2021, 09:06:59 PM
Just learned the actors that played Chakotay and B'lanna are apparently massive rightwing chodes. Kinda makes sense Robert Beltran would be but it's a shame about Roxanne Dawson :(
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: earl_sleek on March 30, 2021, 09:07:58 PM
I always hated Icheb so his death is one of my favourite parts of Picard.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on March 30, 2021, 09:56:46 PM
Quote from: earl_sleek on March 30, 2021, 09:06:59 PM
Just learned the actors that played Chakotay and B'lanna are apparently massive rightwing chodes. Kinda makes sense Robert Beltran would be but it's a shame about Roxanne Dawson :(

Maquis confirmed for 2nd Amendment nutters
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 30, 2021, 10:16:49 PM
Quote from: Malcy on March 30, 2021, 07:43:28 PM
He also had a go at Shatner which riled a few people up. Even still. His death added nothing to the story except being a poorly written excuse for 7 to become a totally different character.

Yeah, cos the passage of 20 in universe years obviously wasn't enough of an excuse to have Seven be different. I wouldn't mind, but they could've nearly made it mean something by having Seven KO or incapacitate Incest Romulan (Narissa, I think her name was) in the last episode instead of killing her. Because she realised disintegrating BeJaysus didn't undo Icheb's loss, so killing Narissa wouldn't square up the death of Hugh.

But no, kick her into a chasm instead and piss and moan about it to Captain Edgelord later.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on March 30, 2021, 10:46:53 PM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on March 30, 2021, 09:03:37 PM
Come now, Seven vapourised one person. That's a lower murder count than Worf.

And Icheb was, I think, the most boring recurring character in the history of Star Trek. Redundant, too - did Voyager really need a third highly intelligent but emotionally stunted character? Dying in a gruesome fashion was the only interesting thing he ever did. The original actor seems like a bellend as well.

Ah, fair enough then, vapourised one person and kicked another down a big chasm. Either way it's just an utterly disappointing way for the character to end up, IMO.

I like Icheb! That episode where he erroneously thinks B'Elana is into him and tries to gently let her down sticks in my mind as one of my favourite moments in Voyager, immature as it was.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on March 31, 2021, 07:51:06 AM
Quote from: Lemming on March 30, 2021, 03:09:04 PM
New scenes set 20 years later sounds amazing - but then I remembered that thanks to Star Trek: Picard, Icheb canonically died by having his eyeballs torn out by an organ harvesting ring, and Seven is canonically a mercenary who goes around vapourising people.

At least things might be looking up for Harry!

I hate all that stuff too. But the Voyager doc isn't made by the cretins at CBS, I don't think. It's an independent production and if their DS9 doc is anything to go by, they're fond fans who know their stuff. Can't imagine they'll go down this route - or want to rock the boat at all really.

I had no special fondness for Icheb, but the way he was treated on Picard was a fucking disgrace. Amateurish incel fanfic shit.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 08:28:07 AM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on March 30, 2021, 09:03:37 PM
Come now, Seven vapourised one person. That's a lower murder count than Worf.


I try to forget the show, but I'm pretty sure that Seven beams back at the end of the eye patch episode in order to murder a load more people.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on March 31, 2021, 08:41:08 AM
Guys. It's cool. None of it happened. They're calling it canon. But it obviously isn't. It's "badge-slapping" or whatever they called the commercial practice that brought us the Spock helmet.

Not that I'm knocking the Spock helmet exactly.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on March 31, 2021, 08:49:11 AM
Quote from: Mobbd on March 31, 2021, 08:41:08 AM
Guys. It's cool. None of it happened. They're calling it canon. But it obviously isn't. It's "badge-slapping" or whatever they called the commercial practice that brought us the Spock helmet.

Not that I'm knocking the Spock helmet exactly.

Yeah I'm not really including any events of Picard in my own head-canon. The Voyager books set after the end of the series and parts of Star Trek Online make up mine.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on March 31, 2021, 10:08:07 AM
QuoteI try to forget the show, but I'm pretty sure that Seven beams back at the end of the eye patch episode in order to murder a load more people.

Nah i've been over the footage with a team of experts and they use the same visual shorthand as the Abrams films wrt phasers: red blast for kill, blue for stun. She only kills that one person in the scene, everyone else is hit with the non-lethals.

QuoteGuys. It's cool. None of it happened. They're calling it canon. But it obviously isn't.

Always been baffled with the performative weirdness of pretending a thing you didn't like doesn't exist. The Matrix sequels etc
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on March 31, 2021, 10:19:11 AM
Quote from: earl_sleek on March 30, 2021, 09:06:59 PM
Just learned the actors that played Chakotay and B'lanna are apparently massive rightwing chodes. Kinda makes sense Robert Beltran would be but it's a shame about Roxanne Dawson :(

Dwight Schultz is pretty insanely to the right as well.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on March 31, 2021, 10:53:10 AM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on March 31, 2021, 10:08:07 AM
Nah i've been over the footage with a team of experts and they use the same visual shorthand as the Abrams films wrt phasers: red blast for kill, blue for stun. She only kills that one person in the scene, everyone else is hit with the non-lethals.

Always been baffled with the performative weirdness of pretending a thing you didn't like doesn't exist. The Matrix sequels etc

No need to be baffled when you can ask. ;)

It's not just that it's unlikable, it's also incompatible. It's like if they brought out a new-look Lego brick that doesn't click into the system but still has "Lego" written on the box and a complaints department aggressively insisting that it works.

If they'd said it was a reboot or another thing entirely, it would have been more palatable. But they didn't do that because they want to feast on the brand.

Some Star Trek fans don't like Enterprise or Voyager or even DS9, but they don't usually deny that they are canon. It's a different problem.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 11:12:24 AM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on March 31, 2021, 10:08:07 AM
Nah i've been over the footage with a team of experts and they use the same visual shorthand as the Abrams films wrt phasers: red blast for kill, blue for stun. She only kills that one person in the scene, everyone else is hit with the non-lethals.

Memory Alpha indicates that she simply turned the gun into "automatic". Was this non-lethal thing said by the writers? If not then I think it was clear at the time I watched it that she is simply murdering a load of people.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on March 31, 2021, 01:24:35 PM
Whether set to stun or kill, the sight of her wandering around with two guns blasting away like the most boring form of action hero was a depressing sight.

I liked aspects of her character. She is more human now, less stiff. It's how she should have been at the end of Voyager. And Jeri Ryan plays the part really well. But everyone on Picard has to be a miserable asshole, because DRAMA!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on March 31, 2021, 01:27:12 PM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on March 31, 2021, 10:08:07 AM

Always been baffled with the performative weirdness of pretending a thing you didn't like doesn't exist. The Matrix sequels etc

I'd say that's a perfectly normal thing to do. There's no such thing as canon. You take the things you like and ignore the rest.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on March 31, 2021, 02:08:36 PM
The whole ignore the canon thing is tricky because you have ripple effects in future stories. I didn't like Data being killed off in ST Nemises but they had to roll with that plot point in Picard. Turns out Picard is a bag of shite so the shit ripples continue. All it takes is some decent writing to work around stuff, or better still come up with fresh stuff that delivers.

It's when writers decide to ignore canon that annoys me. The Halloween franchise is a sack of piss for that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: dr_christian_troy on March 31, 2021, 02:49:59 PM
I'd have been more interested if the premise behind Picard was under the umbrella of something like Star Trek: Legacy where each season focused on a different TNG (or DS9, Voyager etc) character and where they were now, with occasional crossovers with various characters but essentially 10 episodes focusing on a specific character we all love on an adventure which isn't entitled to have much of an impact on the rest of the universe (or for the writers to actually think ahead and perhaps thread a bigger narrative across numerous seasons, with a final season reuniting the characters we had previously focused on, for example).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 03:00:09 PM
You can't really reconcile much of Star Trek anyway. Trill and the Augment Wars are two things that come to mind as being completely different across two different Trek shows (DS9 being the show which changes them both).

I don't see why people get so bogged down with "canon". People still debate TAS for some reason. Why do you need the validation one way or another?

Just watch what you like and ignore the stuff you don't.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on March 31, 2021, 04:07:56 PM
Quote from: oy vey on March 31, 2021, 02:08:36 PM
I didn't like Data being killed off in ST Nemises but they had to roll with that plot point in Picard.

In a way they had to, yes. But in another, they could have just ignored it like they ignored practically everything else. I think they only watched Nemesis. They certainly didn't watch Measure of a Man. Well, maybe one of their interns did but their crib notes weren't fully digested by the production team.

Quote from: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 03:00:09 PM
You can't really reconcile much of Star Trek anyway. Trill and the Augment Wars are two things that come to mind as being completely different across two different Trek shows (DS9 being the show which changes them both).

I don't see why people get so bogged down with "canon". People still debate TAS for some reason. Why do you need the validation one way or another?

Things like the Trills (and Vorta having psychic powers and the pronunciation of "Bajor") I see as pilot-like changes of course and completely forgivable. I mean, they could have been avoided with a little more careful planning but in the interest of having a good time, I think things like that are forgivable. Nitpicking is fun but nobody really holds Trek to such high standards. The problems with CBS are altogether different imo.

I just watched TAS, actually, and was on the look out for clues as to the canonicity question! The main problem is the appearance of a Holodeck on the Enterprise (actually called a Rec Room but the same exact thing) in an episode called The Practical Joker. That's the only thing that's hard to get around really. There are plenty of things in TAS not seen before or since, but that's fine too. (TAS is generally seen as canon now, I believe, despite the Holodeck balls-up; and the error was on the part of Encounter at Farpoint rather than TAS itself).

Quote from: dr_christian_troy on March 31, 2021, 02:49:59 PM
I'd have been more interested if the premise behind Picard was under the umbrella of something like Star Trek: Legacy where each season focused on a different TNG (or DS9, Voyager etc) character and where they were now, with occasional crossovers with various characters but essentially 10 episodes focusing on a specific character we all love on an adventure which isn't entitled to have much of an impact on the rest of the universe (or for the writers to actually think ahead and perhaps thread a bigger narrative across numerous seasons, with a final season reuniting the characters we had previously focused on, for example).

Yeah, that would have been neat. But so many things would have been neat. We were watching some TNG the other night - a season 2 episode in which Picard brings up his passion for archaeology for the first time and how he chose Starfleet instead, but one day...!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on March 31, 2021, 04:07:56 PMThings like the Trills (and Vorta having psychic powers and the pronunciation of "Bajor") I see as pilot-like changes of course and completely forgivable. I mean, they could have been avoided with a little more careful planning but in the interest of having a good time, I think things like that are forgivable. Nitpicking is fun but nobody really holds Trek to such high standards. The problems with CBS are altogether different imo.

I just watched TAS, actually, and was on the look out for clues as to the canonicity question! The main problem is the appearance of a Holodeck on the Enterprise (actually called a Rec Room but the same exact thing) in an episode called The Practical Joker. That's the only thing that's hard to get around really. There are plenty of things in TAS not seen before or since, but that's fine too. (TAS is generally seen as canon now, I believe, despite the Holodeck balls-up; and the error was on the part of Encounter at Farpoint rather than TAS itself).

The first few seasons of TNG indicate that the holodeck is new but both TAS and a few Voyager episodes indicate that holodecks have been around for a fair bit longer. Off the top of my head it was one of the Naomi Wildman episodes which had a character mention a holodeck programme they used as a child.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on March 31, 2021, 05:05:40 PM
I suspect the holodeck has been under heavy development from the TOS/TAS era, where it was just a few steps up from those immersive sets they used on The Mandalorian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufp8weYYDE8), through TNG's yellow grid room, where it was totally interactive and fine grained (which is what surprises people there), onto VOY's holo-emitter tech that can be dotted about anywhere needed.

Saw some reviewer suggest they could have made the entire bridge of the ship in PIC holographic. So Picard could have sat down, muttered something about not being used to this modern setup, and reconfigured it with a TNG era LCARS layout and look. So much wasted potential from that show.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 31, 2021, 06:18:33 PM
Quote from: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 03:00:09 PM
You can't really reconcile much of Star Trek anyway. Trill and the Augment Wars are two things that come to mind as being completely different across two different Trek shows (DS9 being the show which changes them both).

I don't see why people get so bogged down with "canon". People still debate TAS for some reason. Why do you need the validation one way or another?

Just watch what you like and ignore the stuff you don't.

I'm not majorly hung up on canon. Really for me it's down to just how insulting the stuff they feed the audience is. I'd let things like the Trill being different in TNG pass. TNG Trill was only a once off. And the Augments Wars being quietly advanced 100 years is fine with me too. We went from horse drawn carriages and planes being rickety pieces of wood and canvas that you steered by bending the wings and often crashed, to lots of people owning cars and safe intercontinental air travel in about 60 years leading up to the 60s. It's not unreasonable they thought spaceflight would go the same way and people being blasted off on sleeper ships by the 1990s is a thing that'd happen.

What does bother me is telling me that this, featured in literally 100s of episodes:

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/c/c6/Martok%2C_Chancellor_of_the_Klingon_High_Council.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/377?cb=20110805121635&path-prefix=en)

Is the same thing as this:

(https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2017/10/24/Photos/OR/MW-FW953_klingo_20171024172827_OR.jpg?uuid=4607ea78-b902-11e7-8310-9c8e992d421e)

That requires the showrunners to either not give a shit about the universe they're working in, which begs the question as to why they bother working in it at all, or to think the viewers are morons. Ditto the fact that no one in the subsequent 900 years of in universe time knows anything about the mycelial network or the Spore Drive, or seemingly has even done any further research into it, is because everyone swore not to speak of the Real Seymour Skinner again.

Retconning the first encounter with the Borg, both in VOY and ENT is also a bit much, albeit not as severe as Disco's Klingnots.

That being said, I could let even that side if the show was good on it's own merits. But new Trek generally hasn't been.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: greenman on March 31, 2021, 06:35:33 PM
Quote from: Blumf on March 31, 2021, 05:05:40 PM
I suspect the holodeck has been under heavy development from the TOS/TAS era, where it was just a few steps up from those immersive sets they used on The Mandalorian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufp8weYYDE8), through TNG's yellow grid room, where it was totally interactive and fine grained (which is what surprises people there), onto VOY's holo-emitter tech that can be dotted about anywhere needed.

Saw some reviewer suggest they could have made the entire bridge of the ship in PIC holographic. So Picard could have sat down, muttered something about not being used to this modern setup, and reconfigured it with a TNG era LCARS layout and look. So much wasted potential from that show.

That was actually somewhat hinted it in The Visitor episode of DS9, I seem to remember Bashir or O'Brien comment about having to use non holographic controls on the old defiant.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 06:58:24 PM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on March 31, 2021, 06:18:33 PM

Retconning the first encounter with the Borg, both in VOY and ENT is also a bit much, albeit not as severe as Disco's Klingnots.

That being said, I could let even that side if the show was good on it's own merits. But new Trek generally hasn't been.

Though Enterprise you can let it slide since it is a sequel to First Contact so it wasn't really a retcon (the Ferengi are a different story!)

Definitely agree on the second point (well actually I pretty much agree with your whole point too as I also loathe new Trek). And on both counts specifically talking about the Borg, they led to good stories so I don't think too many care too much.

Haven't they changed the Klingon design twice in Discovery? The second time to make it more like the proper Klingons? It was such a weird choice to change the design of an alien that around five episodes earlier was given a great explanation for why they had two different designs in universe.

EDIT: The Spore Drive you can say that it wasn't used again because it was exploiting an alien race to work (I stopped watching a few episodes into Season 1 so I don't know if that was ever changed so that it wasn't horrific alien abuse). What really annoyed me about that is that Equinox had already done that story except now we were expected to believe that the good guys were the ones exploiting the aliens to go fast.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on March 31, 2021, 07:08:47 PM
Quote from: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 06:58:24 PM
Though Enterprise you can let it slide since it is a sequel to First Contact so it wasn't really a retcon (the Ferengi are a different story!)

When the Borg make contact near the end of Regenerated, the convenient skipping of "we are the Borg" was borderline piss taking but otherwise I liked that episode. Atmospheric. I also enjoyed First Contact for it's occasional flaws. Good writing forgives a lot.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 31, 2021, 08:54:16 PM
Quote from: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 06:58:24 PM
Though Enterprise you can let it slide since it is a sequel to First Contact so it wasn't really a retcon (the Ferengi are a different story!)

The only problem I have with that is that we have to believe Picard, concerned with preserving the timeline and stroking a huge murder boner about the Borg for that entire movie, never thought to make sure the debris didn't fall to earth. Don't buy it.

What happened is a large part of the writing staff had obviously watched the Borg eps of Voyager in an all night Coco Pops binge and wanted to make another one, and no one said "hey lads, hang on a second."

The Ferengi one was extra stupid. Archer saying "stay away from Starfleet" kept them away for 200 years. Yeah, sure. That's a thing that'd happen. Then of course, whatever about no formal first contact, how compatible is the Federation's apparent lack of knowledge about Ferengi in early TNG (they eat people!!!) with the fact that Ferengi have clearly been trading around the galaxy for decades if not more from DS9?

Quote from: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 06:58:24 PM
Haven't they changed the Klingon design twice in Discovery? The second time to make it more like the proper Klingons? It was such a weird choice to change the design of an alien that around five episodes earlier was given a great explanation for why they had two different designs in universe.

They had them regrow their hair and toned down the prosthetics a little so at least the actors can speak properly and you don't have "Ad. mir. al. I. am... T'kuv...ma" anymore. They still have elongated heads (albeit less noticable), scales/ridges on their necks, possibly still have the clawed hands, and generally are not plausible as being the same species as TNG/DS9/VOY Klingons.

They only way you could spin it is that they went playing around with their DNA to try and cure the lasting cosmetic effects of the Augment Virus. But even then, we have to accept that within 15 years they had given up on doing that and somehow went back to looking like they did immediately after the Augment Virus. Which is non-sensical.

Quote from: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 06:58:24 PM
EDIT: The Spore Drive you can say that it wasn't used again because it was exploiting an alien race to work (I stopped watching a few episodes into Season 1 so I don't know if that was ever changed so that it wasn't horrific alien abuse). What really annoyed me about that is that Equinox had already done that story except now we were expected to believe that the good guys were the ones exploiting the aliens to go fast.

It was likely the very next episode after you stopped, cos it was very early on. Burnham wanted them to stop using the Tardigrade to pilot the drive because of the said horrific alien abuse. But they couldn't because Lorca had been captured by Klingons and they had to use the drive to retrieve him before the Klingons tortured all the Spore Drive's secrets out of him (God, that would've been awful). But then the Tardigrade went into hibernation from the stress of repeated jumps and rather than trying to force it out of its hibernation, Stamets injected himself with Tardigrade DNA to be able to pilot the Spore drive personally. Then they released the Tardigrade back into space with a few canisters of spores and it was fine.

They did discover in season 2 that the mycelial realm was inhabited by aliens, and Stamets was talking about not using the drive anymore because they thought they were damaging their realm. I suspect at some point in the creative process, before they decided they were going to jet off into the 32nd century and not speak of the Real Seymour Skinner[nb]Yes, I'll keep repeating this cos it was so stupid.[/nb] again, it might've been something that would've recurred through the series, and become the reason why the Spore Drive is not used in the 24th century.

But actually it transpired that what was damaging the realm was the spore version of Culber that had somehow been created when the real one died. And once he was bullshitted back into normal existence, everything was fine.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on April 01, 2021, 12:17:18 PM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on March 31, 2021, 06:18:33 PM
I'm not majorly hung up on canon. Really for me it's down to just how insulting the stuff they feed the audience is. I'd let things like the Trill being different in TNG pass. TNG Trill was only a once off. And the Augments Wars being quietly advanced 100 years is fine with me too. We went from horse drawn carriages and planes being rickety pieces of wood and canvas that you steered by bending the wings and often crashed, to lots of people owning cars and safe intercontinental air travel in about 60 years leading up to the 60s. It's not unreasonable they thought spaceflight would go the same way and people being blasted off on sleeper ships by the 1990s is a thing that'd happen.

What does bother me is telling me that this, featured in literally 100s of episodes:

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/c/c6/Martok%2C_Chancellor_of_the_Klingon_High_Council.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/377?cb=20110805121635&path-prefix=en)

Is the same thing as this:

(https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2017/10/24/Photos/OR/MW-FW953_klingo_20171024172827_OR.jpg?uuid=4607ea78-b902-11e7-8310-9c8e992d421e)

That requires the showrunners to either not give a shit about the universe they're working in, which begs the question as to why they bother working in it at all, or to think the viewers are morons. Ditto the fact that no one in the subsequent 900 years of in universe time knows anything about the mycelial network or the Spore Drive, or seemingly has even done any further research into it, is because everyone swore not to speak of the Real Seymour Skinner again.

Retconning the first encounter with the Borg, both in VOY and ENT is also a bit much, albeit not as severe as Disco's Klingnots.

That being said, I could let even that side if the show was good on it's own merits. But new Trek generally hasn't been.

It seems crackers to me to invest so much importance in design continuity in a franchise that spans decades (and frequently changes things up in subtle and... less subtle ways anyway). But to each their own. I can understand being less forgiving of such things if you also don't enjoy the writing for other reasons.

And the Spore drive - to recreate it you need a) access to a space Tardigrade, an extraordinarily rare creature that can apparently teleport about, b) the particular fungus that exists both in our universe and in subspace, which they make a point of telling us how rare it is, and c) someone with the knowledge of both mycology and subspace physics to figure out how it all fits together. I can buy it as a vanishingly unlikely confluence of circumstances.

On topic: I just noticed a mistake in the rather good Voyager episode Coda, where Janeway apparently dies and has a vision of her father, an Admiral. He supposedly died years earlier, prior to S1 of TNG, and indeed he seems to be wearing an older-style Admiral's uniform. But he's wearing the Voyager-era comm badge and not the TNG one! I hope someone was fired for that blunder.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr_Simnock on April 01, 2021, 01:03:50 PM
The more I think about it the more it would have been better if Chakotay spent the entire Voyager run just playing golf on the hollodeck
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: dr_christian_troy on April 01, 2021, 02:50:58 PM
Do you reckon if Neelix made it to DS9, Odo would have told him to fuck off? He'd have probably ended up working for Quark who would barely tolerate him.

I hope the voice (if not the visual) of Robert Picardo turns up somewhere in Picard Season 2.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 01, 2021, 02:56:44 PM
Picardo could play Zimmerman on Picard. He could have a new storyline where he's the leader of a secret (they love secret cults) cult of Holograms bent on wiping out humans. Then Patrick Stewart could stab him in the face and his last words could be "Picard ... oh."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on April 01, 2021, 04:34:16 PM
Picardo said he had been approached for Picard not long before the 1st series had aired. If anything now I could see him turning up in Prodigy.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 01, 2021, 05:23:21 PM
Quote from: dr_christian_troy on April 01, 2021, 02:50:58 PM
Do you reckon if Neelix made it to DS9, Odo would have told him to fuck off? He'd have probably ended up working for Quark who would barely tolerate him.

Odo: I don't suppose you know what happened to Mr. Neelix?
Garak: It's best not to dwell on such minutae.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on April 01, 2021, 05:41:02 PM
The end of Neelix story always bugged me. I get it from a character point of view though. Seeming him reacquaint himself with VOY characters in Online is great though. Tuvok's little dance is absolute minimum effort though.effort
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 01, 2021, 05:48:26 PM
Quote from: Malcy on April 01, 2021, 05:41:02 PM
Tuvok's little dance is absolute minimum effort though

I actually liked that moment. They generally held back on Tuvok going over the top emotionally, like a lot a Vulcans do in Trek (apparently down to Tim Russ taking the part very seriously), so such a small gesture meant a lot. I think Neelix's farewell was much more moving than the rest of the crew.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on April 01, 2021, 05:53:44 PM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on April 01, 2021, 12:17:18 PM
On topic: I just noticed a mistake in the rather good Voyager episode Coda, where Janeway apparently dies and has a vision of her father, an Admiral. He supposedly died years earlier, prior to S1 of TNG, and indeed he seems to be wearing an older-style Admiral's uniform. But he's wearing the Voyager-era comm badge and not the TNG one! I hope someone was fired for that blunder.

Whoops! Well spotted. And Coda is rather a good ep, isn't it? Not seen it for a while but I have positive memories of that one.

Quote from: JamesTC on March 31, 2021, 04:44:16 PM
The first few seasons of TNG indicate that the holodeck is new but both TAS and a few Voyager episodes indicate that holodecks have been around for a fair bit longer. Off the top of my head it was one of the Naomi Wildman episodes which had a character mention a holodeck programme they used as a child.

Quote from: Blumf on March 31, 2021, 05:05:40 PM
I suspect the holodeck has been under heavy development from the TOS/TAS era, where it was just a few steps up from those immersive sets they used on The Mandalorian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufp8weYYDE8), through TNG's yellow grid room, where it was totally interactive and fine grained (which is what surprises people there), onto VOY's holo-emitter tech that can be dotted about anywhere needed.

Saw some reviewer suggest they could have made the entire bridge of the ship in PIC holographic. So Picard could have sat down, muttered something about not being used to this modern setup, and reconfigured it with a TNG era LCARS layout and look. So much wasted potential from that show.

Good call! I think that was Harry Kim who could remember "Flotter" or whatever his name was from his own childhood. So if Harry is, say, 30, and his experiences with Flotter on the Holodeck were 20 years ago, would that place his childhood as pre-TNG or not? I am not sure.

The Holodeck History on Memory Alpha shows how messy this element is (though the only real fuck-up is unsurprisingly from Discovery): https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Holodeck#History

The TAS Rec Room tech is arguably a different proto-Holodeck thing. Memory Alpha says the effect was partly achieved with audio tapes!  https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Recreation_room

Regarding the thing about having a LCARS/TNG look in Picard. They could totally have done that. People keep saying "You want a TNG-style show but you can't have that anymore. TV isn't like that now." But isn't verisimilitude and authenticity constantly applauded in Stranger Things and the likes? Imagine the possibilities. You could totally do it right. People would fucking love it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on April 01, 2021, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on April 01, 2021, 05:48:26 PM
I actually liked that moment. They generally held back on Tuvok going over the top emotionally, like a lot a Vulcans do in Trek (apparently down to Tim Russ taking the part very seriously), so such a small gesture meant a lot. I think Neelix's farewell was much more moving than the rest of the crew.

It did but I always hoped for a little more. Mainly because he had been away from other Vulcans bar the guy in engineering(his name escapes me) and his kinky holodeck adventures. Reminds me of The Doctor's song.

It was uploaded in an AI 4K remaster but don't know how good it looked. Channels worth a follow for the intakes anyway.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y-BzYDO-gP8
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 01, 2021, 06:02:44 PM
Quote from: Malcy on April 01, 2021, 05:59:12 PM
the guy in engineering(his name escapes me)

Vorik. Bad actor who was COINCIDENTALLY the son of producer Jeri Taylor.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 01, 2021, 06:04:05 PM
Quote from: Malcy on April 01, 2021, 05:59:12 PM
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y-BzYDO-gP8

Picardo is so much fun. I've seen some of his cameos and his goes into a different routine for every one he does.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on April 01, 2021, 07:06:56 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on April 01, 2021, 06:02:44 PM
Vorik. Bad actor who was COINCIDENTALLY the son of producer Jeri Taylor.

Ha I didn't know that.

I liked Tuvok a lot. Underrated character. The least childish of the male officers.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on April 01, 2021, 07:08:25 PM
Tuvok is boss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8-917vo9C8&ab_channel=XAngel228

He'd totally beat up Worf. And DS9 Worf at that, not TNG Worf who lost nearly every fight he had.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on April 01, 2021, 07:12:48 PM
Everyone's seen this right? Tim Russ's terrible/brilliant singing career

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLhTEB7xM90
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on April 01, 2021, 07:17:07 PM
No, I hadn't.

His voice is fairly good, but he sounds permanently on the verge of being out of breath.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on April 01, 2021, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on April 01, 2021, 06:02:44 PM
Vorik. Bad actor who was COINCIDENTALLY the son of producer Jeri Taylor.

Cheers, never knew that or thought that he was overly terrible though.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ho647rp6Y7I
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 01, 2021, 10:10:04 PM
Right, I'm starting on Voyager.

Caretaker. Other than the whole 'being trapped in the Delta Quadrant' aspect, and what a few of the characters look like, I didn't know a thing about the setup of the show going in. I remember enjoying it more than DS9 back when I was a kid, but that was probably because it felt more typically Star Trekky, ie no sitting around a bar on a Cardassian station chatting about things. So the actual setup, particularly the inclusion of the Maquis, was a definite surprise to me. I was disappointed that Quark (well, and Morn) was the only DS9 character to appear at first, I expected a tiny bit more in the way of a handover. The actual plot itself was decent, nicely weird at first with a reasonable conclusion. Other than setting up the possible future conflict with the Klingons II (can't remember what they're called just yet), and giving the crew a goal moving forward, there wasn't anything particularly special about the story, although I suppose setting up the main elements of the show are the most important aspect.
I thought Neelix was fine. We'll see how I feel about him further down the line. The rest of the crew are kind of perfunctory at the moment, although it's nice to have a Vulcan as a main character again, and I'm enjoying the Doctor's grumpiness. Looking forward to see how they develop over the coming days and weeks.

My girlfriend isn't completely sure yet, but is willing to give it a go (TNG and DS9 both took a couple of seasons to really get going so she's going to give it a chance), which means it'll be an episode a day thing at the minute. I'll give some thoughts after each story, will try to keep away from really obvious plot points in case anybody else is new to the show and happens to be watching at this point too.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 01, 2021, 10:27:01 PM
That was a quick break after the DS9 marathon. Better watch Caretaker then. Anyone else in on this? Keep it spoiler free and relive the delta quadrant one more time...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on April 01, 2021, 10:29:25 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 01, 2021, 10:10:04 PM
Right, I'm starting on Voyager.

Caretaker. Other than the whole 'being trapped in the Delta Quadrant' aspect, and what a few of the characters look like, I didn't know a thing about the setup of the show going in. I remember enjoying it more than DS9 back when I was a kid, but that was probably because it felt more typically Star Trekky, ie no sitting around a bar on a Cardassian station chatting about things. So the actual setup, particularly the inclusion of the Maquis, was a definite surprise to me. I was disappointed that Quark (well, and Morn) was the only DS9 character to appear at first, I expected a tiny bit more in the way of a handover. The actual plot itself was decent, nicely weird at first with a reasonable conclusion. Other than setting up the possible future conflict with the Klingons II (can't remember what they're called just yet), and giving the crew a goal moving forward, there wasn't anything particularly special about the story, although I suppose setting up the main elements of the show are the most important aspect.
I thought Neelix was fine. We'll see how I feel about him further down the line. The rest of the crew are kind of perfunctory at the moment, although it's nice to have a Vulcan as a main character again, and I'm enjoying the Doctor's grumpiness. Looking forward to see how they develop over the coming days and weeks.

My girlfriend isn't completely sure yet, but is willing to give it a go (TNG and DS9 both took a couple of seasons to really get going so she's going to give it a chance), which means it'll be an episode a day thing at the minute. I'll give some thoughts after each story, will try to keep away from really obvious plot points in case anybody else is new to the show and happens to be watching at this point too.

yes mate!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: petril on April 01, 2021, 10:51:14 PM
Quote from: Mr_Simnock on April 01, 2021, 01:03:50 PM
The more I think about it the more it would have been better if Chakotay spent the entire Voyager run just playing golf on the hollodeck

a one-off episode where he just casually plays a few holes of a round. by himself. commentating on his technique as he goes. 43 minutes
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on April 01, 2021, 10:52:22 PM
Fantastic, Voyager rewatch time!

Series 1 and 2 are a bit shaky, but there are some great episodes in the mix, Series 2 moreso.

Don't want to set you up to hate Neelix, but he really is fucking annoying, especially in the early series. Remember that his girlfriend is three years old every time they're on screen together.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 01, 2021, 11:02:11 PM
Quote from: Lemming on April 01, 2021, 10:52:22 PM
Fantastic, Voyager rewatch time!
Don't want to set you up to hate Neelix, but he really is fucking annoying, especially in the early series. Remember that his girlfriend is three years old every time they're on screen together.

Even worse, she's only one in the beginning. What where they thinking, especially as Jennifer Lien was only 19 and Ethan Philips was 40.

Quote from: purlieu on April 01, 2021, 10:10:04 PM
Right, I'm starting on Voyager.

Caretaker. Other than the whole 'being trapped in the Delta Quadrant' aspect, and what a few of the characters look like, I didn't know a thing about the setup of the show going in. I remember enjoying it more than DS9 back when I was a kid, but that was probably because it felt more typically Star Trekky, ie no sitting around a bar on a Cardassian station chatting about things. So the actual setup, particularly the inclusion of the Maquis, was a definite surprise to me. I was disappointed that Quark (well, and Morn) was the only DS9 character to appear at first, I expected a tiny bit more in the way of a handover. The actual plot itself was decent, nicely weird at first with a reasonable conclusion. Other than setting up the possible future conflict with the Klingons II (can't remember what they're called just yet), and giving the crew a goal moving forward, there wasn't anything particularly special about the story, although I suppose setting up the main elements of the show are the most important aspect.
I thought Neelix was fine. We'll see how I feel about him further down the line. The rest of the crew are kind of perfunctory at the moment, although it's nice to have a Vulcan as a main character again, and I'm enjoying the Doctor's grumpiness. Looking forward to see how they develop over the coming days and weeks.

My girlfriend isn't completely sure yet, but is willing to give it a go (TNG and DS9 both took a couple of seasons to really get going so she's going to give it a chance), which means it'll be an episode a day thing at the minute. I'll give some thoughts after each story, will try to keep away from really obvious plot points in case anybody else is new to the show and happens to be watching at this point too.

Caretaker's one of the better Trek pilots. Neelix is probably at his best in this, showing a bit of craftiness. I'll give my comments on individual episodes after people have watched them on here.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: dr_christian_troy on April 01, 2021, 11:08:06 PM
I got as far as about a few episodes into Season 2 on my initial watch, and so will keep an eye on the updates here and tuck back in!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on April 01, 2021, 11:15:30 PM
I'd say Caretaker is the best of the pilots. I believe it is also considerably the most expensive. Emissary is close behind but it just had much more to set up which meant it couldn't really be an exciting story in its own right. Broken Bow is also great. It is only really TNG which opens on a bit of a boring note.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 01, 2021, 11:26:08 PM
Encounter at Farpoint drags in places (mainly the actual Farpoint stuff), but I do like the Q stuff, it immediately sets it up as something bigger and darker than TOS. Doesn't massively live up to that promise until well into the second season, but there we go.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on April 01, 2021, 11:40:06 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 01, 2021, 10:10:04 PM
Right, I'm starting on Voyager.

Quote from: oy vey on April 01, 2021, 10:27:01 PM
That was a quick break after the DS9 marathon. Better watch Caretaker then. Anyone else in on this? Keep it spoiler free and relive the delta quadrant one more time...

Quote from: Lemming on April 01, 2021, 10:52:22 PM
Fantastic, Voyager rewatch time!

omg, it's on.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 02, 2021, 09:31:36 AM
That was much better than I remember. The action was good, the story interesting, and the introduction of the characters was seamless. I enjoyed all the interactions. The acting is excellent, though I can see an issue with Robert Beltran. How do I explain it? It's like he's close to breaking out of character and into a smirk, or something. But he was quite intense when the story demanded it. The first half is particularly strong, but did they have to
Spoiler alert
kill Stadi?
[close]
That still annoys me. The other two first officer and doctor pricks were cardboard. Good luck assholes. Jennifer Lien is really good isn't she? That scene with her speech to the Occampans is old school TOS trek. Good and cheesy.

Just in case you don't realise how good Kate Mulgrew is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SIZcDWKyw0&t=33s
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on April 02, 2021, 09:35:57 AM
I love how they don't even bother giving the first officer a name
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: petril on April 02, 2021, 10:57:00 AM
Quote from: oy vey on April 02, 2021, 09:31:36 AM
That was much better than I remember. The action was good, the story interesting, and the introduction of the characters was seamless. I enjoyed all the interactions. The acting is excellent, though I can see an issue with Robert Beltran. How do I explain it? It's like he's close to breaking out of character and into a smirk, or something. But he was quite intense when the story demanded it.

it's like he went in knowing the advisor for Native American cultural stuff wasn't that good and didn't know how to bring it up, so he's just stuck with this character for seven years
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 02, 2021, 12:17:03 PM
Quote from: oy vey on April 02, 2021, 09:31:36 AM
Just in case you don't realise how good Kate Mulgrew is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SIZcDWKyw0&t=33s

Geneviève Bujold is a really good actor, but it shows that you need a certain type to be a convincing Trek captain. Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew & Bakula all have that presence, and tone of voice that makes them a believable authority figure.

As for Beltran. He's a very casual actor at the best of times. From his interviews he finds sci-fi to be ridiculous, and difficult to take seriously. So it must have been a constant battle to keep a straight face. According to the other actors he also tended not to bother learning his lines properly. Ethan Phillips has spoken about how Beltran couldn't remember the most basic terms, yet he does Shakespeare plays and remember soliloquys easily.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: crankshaft on April 02, 2021, 12:39:04 PM
Quote from: petrilTanaka on April 02, 2021, 10:57:00 AM
it's like he went in knowing the advisor for Native American cultural stuff wasn't that good and didn't know how to bring it up, so he's just stuck with this character for seven years

Yeah, it's kind of worse than that - the advisor was a white guy who spent 30 years pretending to be Native American.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamake_Highwater (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamake_Highwater)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on April 02, 2021, 01:53:28 PM
Quote from: Lemming on April 01, 2021, 10:52:22 PM
Don't want to set you up to hate Neelix, but he really is fucking annoying, especially in the early series. Remember that his girlfriend is three years old every time they're on screen together.

She's not even 2 at the start, iirc. I think I said earlier in the thread that the Ocampa age thing is really not workable if thought about for more than 5 minutes.

As for Bujold, she had 4 days or something at it before she quit? Not really fair to compare her to Mulgrew.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 02, 2021, 01:55:11 PM
Yeah, I was a bit torn on Chakotay - pretty good that there's a Native American main character, less so that he's played for "you crazy Indians and your beliefs eh!"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 02, 2021, 02:47:21 PM
Robbie McNeil and Garrett Wang talk about a lot of this on their Delta Flyers podcast. McNeill is particularly critical of his character in the early episodes. A good listen if you're interested in Voyager, especially for behind the scenes stuff. The audio podcast is free to download, but there's a patreon video subscription that has extras. I've got the basic £4 per month one, where you get the full video podcast, plus the extra interviews they do afterwards with cast/crew.

EDIT: This may be a useful listen if anyone's going on a rewatch, as the podcast is centred around rewatching an new episode per show. Although if you're going a story per day you'll soon surpass their weekly rewatch.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 02, 2021, 02:49:29 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 02, 2021, 01:55:11 PM
Yeah, I was a bit torn on Chakotay - pretty good that there's a Native American main character, less so that he's played for "you crazy Indians and your beliefs eh!"

The problem with it was not only that it was a hodge-podge of different ethnic beliefs [including non American cultures], but he was almost defined by being native. Once they got cold feet about it after Michael Piller left [Chakotay was his baby], the character had nothing left. He couldn't even fill the role of Janeway's love interest as they didn't want her to be sleeping with the crew.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on April 02, 2021, 03:00:16 PM
First-time watchers should be aware that Robert Beltran was notorious for pissing and moaning about the series while it was still airing. Watching him half-arse everything, and occasionally treat his lines with outright contempt, is one of the joys of Voyager. On par with watching Shatner and Kelley just completely fuck about in TOS S3, and watching Alexander Siddig totally give up in the last couple series of DS9.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on April 02, 2021, 03:15:53 PM
Beltran kept pushing to leave but they kept giving him more money to stay, IIRC.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 02, 2021, 03:41:41 PM
Parallax. I love a good spacial anomaly WTF is going on type story, so there was some enjoyable stuff here, but even within the fairly shaky science of Star Trek, this was utter nonsense, wasn't it? I can't get ahold of anything that actually happened. Still, they're hitting the Starfleet vs. Maquis stuff head on from the off, and although the character arc was fairly standard, it was nicely done. I like Torres, and her and Janeway worked well together. The Doctor was given a touch of sympathy at the start before heading off into being a punchline. Wondering where his character will be going.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 02, 2021, 03:50:24 PM
What's interesting is that I thought Beltran nailed it in that episode. I really bought Chakotay backing Torres. Yeah, the science was dumb, but I enjoyed it for all the character development. A strong 2nd episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 02, 2021, 03:59:18 PM
Indeed. It's obvious that we're going to have the two crews gradually adapting to each other - with a few bumps in the road along the way, no doubt - so as long as it's done convincingly, like this was, then I'm going to enjoy the stories. It actually lost a point for me because of just how utterly nonsense and contradictory the science was.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: crankshaft on April 02, 2021, 04:26:42 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 02, 2021, 03:41:41 PM
Parallax. I love a good spacial anomaly

Then you're going to love Star Trek: Voyager.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on April 02, 2021, 08:35:25 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 02, 2021, 03:59:18 PM
just how utterly nonsense and contradictory the science was.

Just watched Time and Again and that makes Parralax look positively well researched and coherent. I know Star-Trek is guilty of sci-babble in general, but Voyager takes it to an unnecessary level that harms the plot. The basic concept of Time and Again is fine, but lumbered with tortuous
Spoiler alert
paradox guff
[close]
. I'm coming to this re-watch as objective as I can be, and no "well actually" criticism of scientific accuracy is tedious, but, to give a comparison to historical drama, this isn't Henry VIII wearing the wrong type of doublet, but like him going about playing frisbee and riding into battle on a penny farthing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 02, 2021, 09:05:41 PM
You have to remember that a lot of Voyager's early scripts were recycled from rejected Next Generation ideas. So, not the best.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on April 03, 2021, 01:07:20 AM
The problem with Time and Again is
Spoiler alert
that they end it with the events all being wiped from history. Your third story and you erase all of the events so they never happened which is a bit of a silly move for a show still establishing characters. Even the great scene with The Doctor is now technically gone. It isn't a bad episode, just a poorly positioned piece of meh.
[close]
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on April 03, 2021, 01:14:08 AM
Also had a problem that we're being introduced to the
Spoiler alert
weird and distant delta quadrant and the civilization is just a bunch of humans that all wear the same clothes, with lots of hanging around what is basically an industrial estate
[close]
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: petril on April 03, 2021, 10:08:27 AM
I remember quite liking the setting for the early parts of the series, because despite all the wow magictech teleport, plus it being just after Deep Space "whole new exotic bit of the galaxy that's wild", they ended up in like the shitty bit of the Delta quadrant, where it's like a housing estate, a wrecked canal and retail park with half the tenants it's meant to.

Just nothing like yer proper big Star Trek stuff. was kinda nice.

I mean it did grate a bit with me, but I just wanted the familiarity of all the cool Trek stuff I'd seen in TNG and DS9.

Spoiler alert

I do wish the Romulan message in a bottle wasn't just entirely self contained, and there'd been scope for some background remote detective work trying to find out where it went and if it can be got out properly. I'd have loved the ending tied into the Pathfinder/contacting home stuff, maybe had scope for the crew having to brief the Romulans and do a few odd-jobs for them as well, just to help the War effort a little.

As it was it was still a really good sci-fi episode of a story. And you always needed the early hope spots just to let the audience be sure the premise is sticking around for a bit.
[close]

edit - hid the spoiler-in-context
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Phil_A on April 03, 2021, 12:20:18 PM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on April 01, 2021, 07:17:07 PM
No, I hadn't.

His voice is fairly good, but he sounds permanently on the verge of being out of breath.

Hmm, the performance isn't too bad but the way it's filmed is just odd. It's got the production values of a public access cable show, and kind-of looks like it was filmed on the Voyager set after hours except Voyager finished two years before this so that's unlikely. Couldn't an actor who'd been on a successful TV show for seven years have stumped up for a professional video shoot?

Also it sounds like he's singing "CUSHION GAZE-AHHHH" on the chorus.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 03, 2021, 05:26:37 PM
Time and Again. It's enough of a variation on past time travel stories - largely because the way they accidentally wound up involved in the story and effectively had to extricate themselves. Ultimately it wasn't a hugely memorable story, but felt overall more confidently done than some of the bland early TNG episodes. I'm also amused by the fact that this is two episodes in a row where
Spoiler alert
they're accidentally going up against themselves. I'm enjoying the slightly ramshackle feeling of them not quite knowing what they're doing so far.
[close]

It's partially because I've waited a very long time since the end of TNG, and have watched seven series of DS9 in the interim, but my favourite thing about the first three so far has been the space exploration thing. It's really nice just to be off an adventure, not knowing what's around the next corner, even if it's nothing mind-blowing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on April 03, 2021, 05:37:11 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 03, 2021, 05:26:37 PM
It's partially because I've waited a very long time since the end of TNG, and have watched seven series of DS9 in the interim, but my favourite thing about the first three so far has been the space exploration thing. It's really nice just to be off an adventure, not knowing what's around the next corner, even if it's nothing mind-blowing.

Agreed. From what I remember there's a bit of a blip in the second series where they get stuck in "Kazon Space" (a concept that doesn't make any amount of sense), but after that it's space exploration all the way.

One of the great things about Voyager, which really starts to show in the middle seasons, is that they're prepared to do all kinds of pulpy and off-the-wall stories that the likes of TNG would never handle, and it really brings back the TOS style of exciting space exploration where absolutely anything can happen. There's an episode later on that's entirely about an elevator that goes all the way from the ground up into space, which Tuvok ends up falling out of or something, and there's another featuring an ocean world with no land where gigantic leviathans swirl around underwater cities.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on April 03, 2021, 05:44:19 PM
Voyager seemed to begin with the idea that you'd have recurring baddies for a while and then move out of their range, into new trouble. So you had the Kazon and the Vidiians. This was a cool idea but they dropped it after a while and didn't pick it up again until much later in the show with the Malon and the Hirogen.

I do wish they'd picked up more crew as they went along, not just Neelix, Seven and the Equinox mob. Would be cool to see the crew growing more diverse (and also a reflection of how it was on real long-distance sea voyages in the age of discovery).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 03, 2021, 05:46:39 PM
It all feels a little like it's Farscape's bigger, more serious cousin, which is good to me.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 03, 2021, 06:25:48 PM
Time and Again is forgettable by design but there are worse time travel stories in Trek. I'm not enjoying the way they try to portray Kes as some kind of Troi/Guinan hybrid. Her final scene is no Yesterday's Enterprise. Not her fault, just the story being an inconsequential romp to begin with. A watchable in between episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Zetetic on April 03, 2021, 07:50:39 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 03, 2021, 05:46:39 PM
It all feels a little like it's Farscape's bigger, more serious cousin, which is good to me.
I really like this idea, as an attitude to try putting on at the very least.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on April 03, 2021, 08:07:38 PM
Phage is a really good episode.
Spoiler alert
The Viidians are a great enemy, I like how they were given some sympathy whilst being utterly horrific. Janeway's decision was certainly noble, it's a shame it'll be undermined and contradicted later on. The Viidians would have made a far better recurring foe than the Kazon, but I understand, especially with a certain up coming episode, that they would have turned the show far too close to a horror for the kind of broad audience I assume the show was aiming for. I also loved the call forward of Neelix asking the doctor if he could sing, and the doctors assurances that he wasn't going to kiss him.
[close]
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on April 04, 2021, 01:44:43 PM
Quote from: Poobum on April 03, 2021, 08:07:38 PM
Phage is a really good episode.
Spoiler alert
The Viidians are a great enemy, I like how they were given some sympathy whilst being utterly horrific. Janeway's decision was certainly noble, it's a shame it'll be undermined and contradicted later on. The Viidians would have made a far better recurring foe than the Kazon, but I understand, especially with a certain up coming episode, that they would have turned the show far too close to a horror for the kind of broad audience I assume the show was aiming for. I also loved the call forward of Neelix asking the doctor if he could sing, and the doctors assurances that he wasn't going to kiss him.
[close]

Agreed about the Vidiians. They're pretty good. More of them to come.

A lot of people say Voyager improves after Season 3, once they've passed the Nekrit Expanse (an in-world assurance to the viewer that everything would be new and fresh from now on). Maybe it does improve. The early Borg stories (certainly Scorpion) that follow are a high point of sorts. But are any of the later baddie races as good as the Vidiians? The Hirogen? The Malon? Those "Hierarchy" guys? Naaah. Hirogen look pretty cool in their masks but they're ultimately just a cliche hunter species. Vidiians.

EDIT: I posted a pic that I realised was spoilery to anyone doing this watch-along for the first time. Just removed it. Soz.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 04, 2021, 01:55:35 PM
Season 4 onwards are an improvement because to show decides to mosty focus on Seven, The Doctor, and Janeway. All the dull characters are shunted to the back,
Spoiler alert
and Kes is ejected into space unemployment.
[close]
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 04, 2021, 08:57:23 PM
Phage. Pretty good. The Vidiians were enjoyably complex - antagonists with a sympathetic cause - and Janeway's response to them was fine Star Trek Captain reasoning. Neelix and the Doctor are an enjoyable pairing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: greenman on April 04, 2021, 09:10:10 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on April 04, 2021, 01:55:35 PM
Season 4 onwards are an improvement because to show decides to mosty focus on Seven, The Doctor, and Janeway. All the dull characters are shunted to the back,
Spoiler alert
and Kes is ejected into space unemployment.
[close]

I'd say it tended to become rather more plot focused as well, TNG and DS9 you could get away with episodes that had quite simple plots that were really just showcases for the characters.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 04, 2021, 09:23:12 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 04, 2021, 08:57:23 PM
Phage. Pretty good. The Vidiians were enjoyably complex - antagonists with a sympathetic cause - and Janeway's response to them was fine Star Trek Captain reasoning. Neelix and the Doctor are an enjoyable pairing.

Not bad at all. An interesting new species with organ harvesting and body horror in the mix.

Neelix & Kes: We would like to share this journey with you.
Janeway: It'll cost you a lung each.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on April 04, 2021, 10:30:31 PM
The Vidiians are pretty cool. Not every script with them uses them well, but there's at least one very good one I remember coming up later on.

A lot of people online tend to get pissed off at Janeway in this one for being too soft on the organ harvesters, but I don't really see what else she could have done - she's obviously right when she says that she can't kill them to recover the lungs, and it's not like a more violent/forceful response would have helped future victims.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on April 04, 2021, 10:59:30 PM
The Cloud is a nice episode, more lovely Doctor moments,
Spoiler alert
interesting story of eviscerating some poor cloud beast. The silly French thing was meh. Annoyed how they treated the idea of a suture as some bizarre ancient thing "a sootchore?"
[close]
. What's brilliant is the Delta Flyers podcast, where they rip into how cringey Chakotay's animal guide stuff was. The real bombshell though was dropped by Garrett Wang, that the writers thought Harry Kim was Chinese for the whole show.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 05, 2021, 03:34:54 PM
The Cloud. Ah yes, more weird space things alert. Enjoyed that a lot. It definitely feels a lot less daring than what I'm used to from DS9, but it's comfortable and familiar in a very good way, just nice Star Trek stuff. Also, another episode where they've accidentally caused a problem that they've had to solve. The French bit was a bit jarring in the middle and went on for a bit long, but the rest of the on-ship stuff was good. They're getting straight to exploring the characters here.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 05, 2021, 08:10:08 PM
The anomaly turns out to be a lion with a splinter in his paw. Never saw that before. But I enjoyed it. They are developing a community vibe given the situation the ship is in. I also like the holodeck program though the color tone is dull. And I like the spirit guide vision quest thingy but I'm easy with Shamanic stuff anyway. Not sure about the rule of not saying what your animal guide is. Neelix threatened to be annoying there. He's on thin ice.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 05, 2021, 11:42:17 PM
Neelix is still in Quark territory for me here: he's not onboard with the Federation spirit but ultimately going along for the ride and everything it entails.
I mean he's nowhere near as entertaining as Quark, but very few characters are going to be.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 06, 2021, 12:39:24 AM
I suppose he's not used to all the Starfleet scientific exploration stuff. It might have been better giving that plot point to a Maquis character but it's early days.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 06, 2021, 04:33:16 PM
Eye of the Needle. I knew it'd be the Romulans. That was really great, one of those episodes where you know how it'll end, but no idea how it'll get there. The most emotional story so far, some real sadness in it. Nice to see the Doctor's character given more development, too. Really enjoyed that, my favourite so far.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 06, 2021, 04:45:27 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 06, 2021, 04:33:16 PM
Eye of the Needle. I knew it'd be the Romulans. That was really great, one of those episodes where you know how it'll end, but no idea how it'll get there. The most emotional story so far, some real sadness in it. Nice to see the Doctor's character given more development, too. Really enjoyed that, my favourite so far.

My favourite episode of the first three seasons [though I love a certain 2 parter in season 3 as well]. As you say, you know it can only end one way, but it all plays out beautifully,
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 06, 2021, 04:54:07 PM
It's a great episode. My fav so far. If I had one gripe, it might have been a little early for a "possible way home" episode but there you have it, the first rug pull.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on April 06, 2021, 05:11:49 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 06, 2021, 04:33:16 PM
Eye of the Needle. I knew it'd be the Romulans. That was really great, one of those episodes where you know how it'll end, but no idea how it'll get there. The most emotional story so far, some real sadness in it. Nice to see the Doctor's character given more development, too. Really enjoyed that, my favourite so far.

We were blown away by this one. We hadn't remembered it as particularly great but it's really, really good. I actually wonder if it's not the best episode in the entire run for script craftsmanship and general well-madeness. Seems crazy to say, especially given how much is yet to come. But it's a forgotten gem anyway.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on April 06, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 06, 2021, 04:33:16 PM
Eye of the Needle. I knew it'd be the Romulans. That was really great, one of those episodes where you know how it'll end, but no idea how it'll get there. The most emotional story so far, some real sadness in it. Nice to see the Doctor's character given more development, too. Really enjoyed that, my favourite so far.

I like when they have sound Romulans in Star Trek. They're a great bunch of lads really.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on April 07, 2021, 12:18:09 AM
Echoing the general sentiment, Eye of the Needle is first class.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on April 07, 2021, 08:57:46 AM
This thread makes me want to skip TNG & DS9 on my big rewatch. Ages since I've seen a lot of Voyager. Eye Of The Needle is a great episode and probably the first I think of when thinking of great VOY episodes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on April 07, 2021, 09:20:13 AM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on April 06, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
I like when they have sound Romulans in Star Trek. They're a great bunch of lads really.

They're my faves because they run the gamut between proper nasty bastards and actually fairly decent. See the guy at the end of TNG's The Chase, who's the only one other than Picard not to be pissed off at the idea all the different aliens are related to each other.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 07, 2021, 04:34:15 PM
Yeah, they feel like a more rounded race than a lot of them, less defined by a particular characteristic and more like actual people, each with wildly varying perspectives and attitudes.

Ex-Post Facto. Felt like a TNG b-side. Why the fuck is there a dog in the Delta Quadrant?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on April 07, 2021, 04:44:52 PM
I liked the concept of using implanted memories for smuggling information, but the episode as a whole was a thin rerun of a bunch of clichés that Trek has already done before and much better. The dog reveal had the advantage of reminding me of a Columbo episode, so there's that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 07, 2021, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 07, 2021, 04:34:15 PM
Why the fuck is there a dog in the Delta Quadrant?

Space dog.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 07, 2021, 05:49:42 PM
I fucking hate those "main character womaniser is accused of murder" episodes. 0/10 for me. Why does Trek do CSI?

Dog comments really made me laugh. Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on April 07, 2021, 06:06:55 PM
After that episode, just want to reassure first-time watchers that Paris's character massively changes for the better after a couple of seasons, ditching the cringeworthy aspects completely. Same sort of "worst character to one of the best characters" trajectory as Bashir.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 07, 2021, 06:25:42 PM
Yes, I was holding out for some change, as I can't imagine him carrying on being so unpleasant throughout the whole run. My girlfriend hates him, and also thinks he looks like a young Damian Collins.

The dog, though. They actually call it a fucking dog. How did that get through? Just call it a Flarb and have Tuvok point out that it's remarkably similar to Earth canine species.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on April 07, 2021, 10:28:40 PM
It's a bit lame but tbf they meet aliens that are exactly identical to humans in the Delta Quadrant (Sikarians?) so i'm not too bothered by it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 08, 2021, 07:05:26 PM
I like Tom, even at this early stage. Neelix is on my yellow alert list. I hadn't remembered him being this annoying this quickly. He was fine in the pilot but he's too emotionally reactive and generally hyper at the minute. Anyway we'll see...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 08, 2021, 07:13:05 PM
Neelix hasn't bothered me at all yet actually.

Emanations. Ah yes, Star Trek: The Next Emanation. There's a good story buried in here, but it ultimately felt a bit underwhelming. Could have done much more with it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 08, 2021, 08:12:06 PM
Well, Neelix wasn't in it. I'm joking. He's not the worst. He just needs a decent episode...

I think Emanations is okay, but it fails on a thematic level. Sorry but I get no depth or insight into the life after death debate.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on April 08, 2021, 08:33:00 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 08, 2021, 07:13:05 PM
Neelix hasn't bothered me at all yet actually.

Emanations. Ah yes, Star Trek: The Next Emanation. There's a good story buried in here, but it ultimately felt a bit underwhelming. Could have done much more with it.

Voyager in a nutshell, isn't it? I mean, I love it but it's so often a case of almost telling a very good story.

Emanations was definitely that. Fairly bland-feeling but with a pretty wild idea at its core. Still,
Spoiler alert
Jerry Hardin!
[close]
And there is something a bit
Spoiler alert
heartbreaking when you're watching that guy wrap himself up in the shroud
[close]
.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on April 08, 2021, 08:39:27 PM
I loved Robert Duncan McNeil on the Delta Flyers podcast getting so annoyed at them misusing the word vacuole, that's my kind of pedantry. I'd have the same pedantry over there being a stable element with 500 nucleons existing naturally, but then I am a stinky smelly loser.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 09, 2021, 05:00:49 PM
Prime Factors. First two thirds fell very much into the TNG b-side category. Final third was a lot more interesting, some good character decisions and Janeway being more authoritative than usual. Definitely rescued an otherwise pretty dull story.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 09, 2021, 05:42:22 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 09, 2021, 05:00:49 PM
Prime Factors. First two thirds fell very much into the TNG b-side category. Final third was a lot more interesting, some good character decisions and Janeway being more authoritative than usual. Definitely rescued an otherwise pretty dull story.

The first of many episodes where Harry passes up some sex with a hot girl because he's waiting for Tom a big nerd.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 09, 2021, 06:13:43 PM
As soon as that chick showed him the harp that plays 70's sci-fi tv drama music he was in, but he had to fuck it up.

I really liked this episode to be honest. The head plonker was a cross between Michael Bolton and that prick who Nicole Kidman dances with at the beginning of Eyes Wide Shut. "Don't you think one of the pleasures of being 70,000 light years from your lover is that you can fuck the aliens you really want."

Anyway, the episode flipped the prime directive on its head, and though it's another rug pull, the last scene is my favorite of the series so far (except maybe that scene in Eye of the Needle where Janeway is in her quarters talking to Mr. Romulan). It's a double boot up the arse for Torres and Tuvok and I believed it. Perfectly written and well played. I like the surprise of Tuvok's actions as well. Good and unpredictable.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on April 09, 2021, 06:25:05 PM
CBA to check whether this has been posted but I very much enjoyed RenegadeCut's tribute to Voyager from a few months back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Sh0NAsHfU (Spoilers abound)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 10, 2021, 07:35:40 PM
State of Flux. Good stuff. A genuine whodunnit that dangles the answer in front of you without you really knowing. Wasn't expecting any of the reveals. Still not really taken by the Kazons, they just seem like generic aliens with no identifying characteristics.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 10, 2021, 08:23:21 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 10, 2021, 07:35:40 PM
State of Flux. Good stuff. A genuine whodunnit that dangles the answer in front of you without you really knowing. Wasn't expecting any of the reveals. Still not really taken by the Kazons, they just seem like generic aliens with no identifying characteristics.

That's probably why they added
Spoiler alert
Seksa
[close]
to them. Makes them more interesting.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 10, 2021, 08:34:37 PM
The Kazon are not the best. Seska is more interesting so we'll see.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Johnny Textface on April 10, 2021, 11:03:17 PM
Are there any good books about the production of the various shows being made in the 90's?  Must be the premium Trek decade.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 10, 2021, 11:32:16 PM
I remember this being good, but it's pricey these days.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YhIU+PkTL._SX392_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 11, 2021, 10:21:03 PM
Heroes and Demons. Started out in "oh no, a holodeck story" territory, but very swiftly turned into a really lovely Doctor episode. He's already by far my favourite character, and I enjoyed that a lot as a result.
Also, chalking another one up for the "the Voyager crew mess up and start the problem themselves" pile.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 11, 2021, 10:30:13 PM
I really enjoyed this when it first aired (actually I was buying them on vhs) because I was waiting for a Doc episode and it was a lot of fun. Looking back it's not quite as good due to the usual holodeck malfunction and misunderstood alien trope, but other than that I still enjoyed it. Doc's heroic story about coming up with an antibody for whatever the fuck he was on about, while chewing on that giant chicken drumstick, is still a delight.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 11, 2021, 10:33:27 PM
I like H&D a lot. Any Doctor episode is good for me, add the vikings and the lovely Freya and it was fun. One of the vikings was played by  Christopher Neame, one of the earliest Trek/Doctor Who crossings, and also was Johnny Alucard in Dracula AD 72.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr_Simnock on April 12, 2021, 10:52:36 AM
I've had this dream I think

(https://live.staticflickr.com/5292/5539525885_7e19b7d3bb_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 12, 2021, 04:41:26 PM
It's funny how they put Jeri Ryan in that ridiculous cheesecake space-babe outfit yet she never looked sexier than in plain 40s clothes. I also think she's far hotter in regular starfleet uniform.

(https://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/7x18/humanerror_082.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on April 12, 2021, 06:17:13 PM
It occurred to me lately that it's a bit troubling that they never gave Seven her own quarters, or even shared quarters that non-comms have. I know she needs the Borg regen chamber instead of a bed, but surely she's entitled to some degree of personal space rather than a cargo bay that everyone can wander into at any time.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 12, 2021, 06:30:26 PM
Cathexis. Fine, a decent enough mystery, but somewhat run of the mill by Star Trek standards.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 12, 2021, 06:42:12 PM
A ghost Chakotay episode. With the likes of this, and other concepts like non-corporeal life forms, telepathy and episodes that treat consciousness as its own manifestation, I wonder how atheists get on with it all. You godless types okay with this?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 12, 2021, 06:46:35 PM
I think the Turn of the Screw holodeck opening was a bit too on the nose for my liking, too.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 12, 2021, 07:25:46 PM
That holonovel seems out if place with the rest of the episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on April 12, 2021, 07:29:35 PM
Quote from: oy vey on April 12, 2021, 07:25:46 PM
That holonovel seems out if place with the rest of the episode.

The holonovel was supposed Janeway's hobby and was going to be a recurring feature, but they ended up only using it one or two more times.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on April 12, 2021, 08:29:36 PM
I really love the concept of Cathexis. I've not rewatched it yet so I can't comment much on the execution, but the idea of Chakotay and an alien playing 4D chess with the unwitting crew as pawns is awesome.

Especially when you factor in that the crew:
a) don't know there's more than one "ghost", and that one is Chakotay
b) don't know that Chakotay is trying to save them while the other is trying to destroy them
c) even if they did know that, they have no way to know which "ghost" is possessing anyone at any given time

There's a really really good episode in there, but I do remember this one falling a bit flat with spirit maps or whatever the fuck, and endless close-ups of Robert Beltran pretending to be unconscious.

Quote from: oy vey on April 12, 2021, 06:42:12 PM
A ghost Chakotay episode. With the likes of this, and other concepts like non-corporeal life forms, telepathy and episodes that treat consciousness as its own manifestation, I wonder how atheists get on with it all. You godless types okay with this?

It makes about as much sense as anything else in Star Trek, I suppose! It's all scientific within the insane laws of science the Star Trek universe operates on, which allow for stuff like Apollo in Who Mourns For Adonais. I think they give some "that'll do" explanation about his neural energy getting separated from his body by the nebula.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 12, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
Yeah true. It kind of spoils it when you think about it too much. The ambiguity saves it all. I can still imagine it annoying stark materialists who laugh at "energetic this" or "telepathic that". Mind melds work because brains can sync up but is penetration or at the very least cunnilingus possible in Sub Rosa. These are questions for philosophers I guess.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on April 12, 2021, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on April 12, 2021, 04:41:26 PM
It's funny how they put Jeri Ryan in that ridiculous cheesecake space-babe outfit yet she never looked sexier than in plain 40s clothes. I also think she's far hotter in regular starfleet uniform.[/img]

Likewise Troi and T'Pol. Just let them wear proper uniforms for Christ's sake.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 12, 2021, 09:16:23 PM
I blame Bermaga for Seven and Tpol's costumes but I assume cheerleader Troi was Gene. They were fucking clueless in the 80's / 90's with that shit. It dates the series much more than any effects shots.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on April 12, 2021, 09:22:33 PM
I've been listening to an audiobook I downloaded years ago called Inside Star Trek. The story of Gene being way too interested in the costume sessions with the young women and having to be told when he is going too far with his hands on adjustments.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 12, 2021, 09:41:27 PM
Semi related to this. I recommend this video by Renegade Cut about the problems with Rick Berman, particularly in his attitudes to women and gay people. I found it very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeSz2gW8IsE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeSz2gW8IsE)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on April 12, 2021, 10:23:13 PM
Quote from: oy vey on April 12, 2021, 08:38:08 PM
Yeah true. It kind of spoils it when you think about it too much. The ambiguity saves it all. I can still imagine it annoying stark materialists who laugh at "energetic this" or "telepathic that". Mind melds work because brains can sync up but is penetration or at the very least cunnilingus possible in Sub Rosa. These are questions for philosophers I guess.

The soul definitely exists in the Star Trek universe, as the Vulcan katra or as a "bioelectric field" in numerous stories. Presumably it travels through the transporter beam as well, which is why nobody has a problem with it apparently killing people and remaking them.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 12, 2021, 10:47:59 PM
^
Agreed.

That Berman video was interesting. And I forgot how comically bad that Enterprise decon scene is.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on April 12, 2021, 11:19:18 PM
Souls can exist in a fictional setting. Doesn't bother me.

I adore Quantum Leap. Don't give a toss that God is
Spoiler alert
a bartender.
[close]
I love The Brittas Empire and God/Heaven is definitely real in that. The Simpsons too. Probably loads of my favourite shows that I can't think of right now. What Dreams May Come is one of my favourite films too.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: petril on April 13, 2021, 09:21:13 AM
Quote from: oy vey on April 12, 2021, 06:42:12 PM
A ghost Chakotay episode. With the likes of this, and other concepts like non-corporeal life forms, telepathy and episodes that treat consciousness as its own manifestation, I wonder how atheists get on with it all. You godless types okay with this?

it's kind hard to miss that Star Trek's been pretty clearly framed as fiction for forty odd years
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 15, 2021, 02:18:00 PM
You'd be surprised what can throw people out of the rules they expect in particular fictional world. Mr Mercedes season 2 got mixed reactions when it went from grounded to supernatural. I can also imagine some people staying away from Ds9 because it's a little too spiritual. Trek tows the line well enough I suppose.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 20, 2021, 03:35:45 PM
Had a few days off for numerous reasons, back on it again now.
Faces. Started off in fairly uninteresting territory - oh dear, they're captured - but once the two sides of Torres met it became really good. I wish the show was brave enough - or of the right era - to spread that story out over several episodes, because I thought her character stuff had potential for a lot more exploration.
Vidiians an enjoyably unpleasant lot again, too, with just a hint of sympathy in the mix.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 20, 2021, 03:45:22 PM
That was a dark one. Compelling but not very rewatchable. The Vidiians are genuinely interesting. Way better than those sunburned Mad Max punks.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on April 20, 2021, 04:39:39 PM
Have to say I was disappointed with Faces on re-watch. What is good about it is squirreled away in small corners. Durst-Vidiian was great when he was on screen, with a mixture of insane depravity and sensitivity that gets you thinking about how a disease that rots you continuously piece by piece will skew your morality. It should have been the set up for a recurring villain, the actor certainly showed he could pull it off. I also find it funny that Voyager seemed to fuck off without helping all of the other prisoners; that poor Talaxian, worked until someone really needs his lungs.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 20, 2021, 04:43:27 PM
Quote from: Poobum on April 20, 2021, 04:39:39 PM
I also find it funny that Voyager seemed to fuck off without helping all of the other prisoners; that poor Talaxian, worked until someone really needs his lungs.

This was brought up on the Delta Flyers episode about this one. Voyager has a tendency to gloss over some things in order to wrap up the episode quickly.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on April 20, 2021, 05:30:41 PM
Been a while since I've seen it (planning to join the episode-by-episode rewatch properly when we get to Season 3), but the thing that winds me up about Faces is that it suggests B'Elanna is justified in attributing her anger and quick-temperedness to having a "Klingon half". Which is annoying, because of course there is no "Klingon half" or "Human half", there's just B'Elanna. TNG was terrible for assuming every non-human race had innate characteristics, and the B'Elanna character was a chance to really fuck around with that concept and deconstruct it.

I suppose you could read it as the Klingon and the Human each embodying the traits which B'Elanna subjectively attributes to her respective heritages, rather than suggesting she actually does have a genetic "Klingon temper" or whatever.

Again, it's been years since I've seen the episode, so if I'm hugely mischaracterising it or even getting it arse-backwards, then apologies and someone please correct me.

Luckily there's a few really good Klingon episodes featuring B'Elanna coming up much later in the show's run, including one in Season 7 that's one of my favourite episodes of the whole series and among the best use of Klingons in any Berman-era show.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 20, 2021, 05:45:21 PM
QuoteThis was brought up on the Delta Flyers episode about this one. Voyager has a tendency to gloss over some things in order to wrap up the episode quickly.

44 minutes is short, but I recall asshole network UPN forced Voyager episodes down to 41 minutes later in the series so they could air more commercials. Fucking twonks.

QuoteBeen a while since I've seen it (planning to join the episode-by-episode rewatch properly when we get to Season 3), but the thing that winds me up about Faces is that it suggests B'Elanna is justified in attributing her anger and quick-temperedness to having a "Klingon half".

That's a fair point. In that respect TOS' The Enemy Within is a bit more nuanced. Who would have thought?

QuoteLuckily there's a few really good Klingon episodes featuring B'Elanna coming up much later in the show's run, including one in Season 7 that's one of my favourite episodes of the whole series and among the best use of Klingons in any Berman-era show.

For all the criticism of characters other than Doc/Seven getting neglected, I do think B'Elanna has some fine episodes throughout the series. That season 7 ep is great, yeah, and there's a Ronald D. Moore one later on... but no spoilers :)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on April 21, 2021, 02:31:34 PM
Jetrel. Well, that was mostly great. The main plot and clash between Neelix and Jetrel was handled well. Loses a point for the abominable dream sequence.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on April 21, 2021, 04:43:04 PM
Quote from: purlieu on April 21, 2021, 02:31:34 PM
Jetrel.

Another example of how Neelix is actually the darkest and most depressive character in all Star Trek.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: oy vey on April 21, 2021, 08:17:38 PM
That transport attempt at the end was creepy. Neelix's over emotional reactions to everything works here. Not very rewatchable but I liked it. Jetrel was played by the excellent James Sloyan (Dr. Mora on DS9).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on May 09, 2021, 12:13:43 AM
More Tim Russ being outstanding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ7TnQBSV00&ab_channel=burlz
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on May 09, 2021, 12:59:51 AM
Decided to skip TNG & DS9 on the rewatch and go to Voyager. Been a long long time since I saw the early episodes.

Really enjoying it although watching in bed most nights and falling asleep. Tiredness rather than being bored. I'll spoiler the next bit for Purlieu's sake but if anyone has a better way of explaining it then please do.

Spoiler alert
Post title sequence cast/character credits can be quite spoilery. Watching The 37's and the big character reveal is a bit unnecessary. Couldn't they just not rather than giving away a big plot point before it happens? Likewise with Barclay an episode or 2 later, something I don't remember happening so early in the show. It was the same on every show. Sometimes it's not a massive thing to see who's going to be appearing in an episode but when you see the name going up before they appear it's a bit shit I feel.

Is it worth trying to figure out a way to say 'avoid the names on the bottom of the screen' without making it obvious there's a good reason not to?
[close]

Hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on May 09, 2021, 01:24:00 AM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on May 09, 2021, 12:13:43 AM
More Tim Russ being outstanding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ7TnQBSV00&ab_channel=burlz

Did not realise that was him.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: RDRR on May 09, 2021, 03:26:15 PM
About halfway through Season 2 and finally enjoying it again after sticking it out through some rough patches. I also agree that Eye of the Needle in S1 is an especially good episode and, after watching DS9 and TNG this last year, is right up there. I really enjoy the Romulans, as others have said they feel much better fleshed out than some of the other antagonist races (I have skipped a couple of Kazon episodes).

Just finished Death Wish which was a good one, at least in concept, although
Spoiler alert
the vision of the home of the Q continuum was very disappointing, and I also could not get over the hammy, contrived Picardesque syoo-i-cide pronunciation that seemed to have been forced on the cast. What the fuck was that, drove me fucking nuts. Found Janeway's court scenes annoyingly overacted and overwrought, too.
[close]
Whoops, sorry, it was a good episode.

Found Cold Fire a bit too Harry Potter.
Spoiler alert
You'd show me mercy, after what I did to you?.
[close]
Prototype was great and really funny, probably my favourite of this series so far, though Meld was good too.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on May 09, 2021, 06:05:41 PM
On series 6 at the moment, feels like a hight point
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on May 12, 2021, 10:59:20 PM
Just watching 'Partruition'.

Spoiler alert
Jem'Hadar ships? Not all that sure that the DS9 crew had encountered them by the time Voyager left. Although someone has integrated them into a holodeck training program! I'm even fairly certain that there's a line later on where they find out the Federation is at war "with something called The Dominion" as I think Janeway puts it.
[close]
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on May 12, 2021, 11:03:18 PM
Just watched the one where a Harry's best mate who we've never seen before comes back from the dead as an alien. The Kobali are an interesting idea for an alien race. Would be worth revisiting in the franchise at some point.

Also the writers are cowards for
Spoiler alert
not having Lindsey and Harry shag when she's all purple and weird looking.
[close]

Also along with the excellent Latent Image this marks the second story in which
Spoiler alert
we see an apparently well-beloved young female character with ties to Harry who is retroactively written in after her death. The actresses look pretty similar as well, and i've always had these two episodes muddled in my head as a consequence.
[close]
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: RDRR on May 14, 2021, 09:26:35 PM
I think my favourite character is the guy (Baxter?) who just shows up to talk about how hard he's been caning it in the gym. Hoping we get a peak at his outrageous, freakish physique in a later episode. Maybe after they encounter some gym rat civilisation who offer the crew a vital fuel source on the condition they can beat them in a bodybuilding showdown

Just finished The Thaw. Really fun episode, and unexpectedly brutal. Please tell me that was Chuck from Better Call Saul?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on May 14, 2021, 09:28:19 PM
Will be back on this next week. Had some serious mental health shit for the past couple of weeks and needed to indulge in something much cosier and more familiar - rewatching 2point4 Children and the whole Partridge oeuvre - but eager to get back to the Delta Quadrant for some decent if slightly unremarkable Trek now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on May 14, 2021, 09:32:16 PM
Quote from: RDRR on May 14, 2021, 09:26:35 PM
Just finished The Thaw. Really fun episode, and unexpectedly brutal. Please tell me that was Chuck from Better Call Saul?

The Thaw is a favourite of mine. I feel like it doesn't get the recognition it deserves.

And that is Michael McKean. He is superb.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on May 14, 2021, 09:48:21 PM
I like that the ending is Janeway outsmarting the clown, and not just shooting him with a photon torpedo.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Camp Tramp on May 15, 2021, 09:05:30 PM
The Thaw has the look and feel of one of the better ToS episodes. Janeway is actually pretty terrifying at the end.

I'm not a fan of Voyager but this is one of the episodes that is up there with anything produced by the other series.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on May 15, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: purlieu on May 14, 2021, 09:28:19 PM
Will be back on this next week. Had some serious mental health shit for the past couple of weeks and needed to indulge in something much cosier and more familiar - rewatching 2point4 Children and the whole Partridge oeuvre - but eager to get back to the Delta Quadrant for some decent if slightly unremarkable Trek now.

Hope you're doing better Purlieu. Have been struggling myself recently. Two of the occasions I have felt at my best recently have been while watching Voyager & enjoying Partridge on This Time & the lovely Vinyl boxset of Knowing Me, Knowing You which I got today. All the best and looking forward to more of your reviews on your return to the Delta Quadrant.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: RDRR on May 16, 2021, 01:46:59 PM
Quote from: JamesTC on May 14, 2021, 09:32:16 PM
And that is Michael McKean. He is superb.

Ah of course he's a famous actor. Still, a nice companion to Mike's appearance in TNG.

Was pleasantly surprised by the end of S2. Innocence/The Thaw/
Spoiler alert
Tuvix (speaking of Janeway being terrifying!)
[close]
was a really fun and thought-provoking series of episodes.
Spoiler alert
I enjoyed how Innocence drums home the importance of the prime directive (though it never seemed to make sense that they would start exploring/prospecting for resources on the other race's moons prior to consultation), whereas the conclusion to Tuvix was a stark contrast in that it felt to me very un-Star Trek
[close]
. Started watching Voyager with very low expectations but it's had some really solid high points so far. I think some of the ups and downs come from the same willingness to completely throw any pretence at scientific credibility to the wind.

The premise of the season finale/two-parter is irritatingly stupid
Spoiler alert
though I did enjoy that their heroic baby-rescue mission ended with them killing its mum and leaving. Not our problem mate it's a Kazon!
[close]
But was still decent fun
Spoiler alert
particularly Doctor and Murder Boy, and his final mission to murder lots of people causing him incredible emotional distress, then die. It's also just always fun seeing the huge spaceship setting down on a planet.
[close]

And as above, hope you're feeling better Purlieu. Enjoyed watching DS9 alongside your reviews, a little sad to have pulled ahead on this.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on May 16, 2021, 02:29:54 PM
Glad to see you back purlieu!

Quote from: RDRR on May 16, 2021, 01:46:59 PMStarted watching Voyager with very low expectations but it's had some really solid high points so far. I think some of the ups and downs come from the same willingness to completely throw any pretence at scientific credibility to the wind.

It gets even better over the course of  season 3 and 4 IMO, and then it keeps reliably pumping out plenty of great episodes all the way through to the end. Agreed about how the show's strength is its willingness to attempt basically any plot, at its best it feels like it's returning to TOS's "anything can happen" feeling.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on May 22, 2021, 06:39:19 PM
Thank you, fellow voyagers! Definitely on the up again and back onboard.

Learning Curve. Some nice Tuvok stuff there, but what a horribly rushed ending. Actually properly cringed at "we can learn to follow the rules". I did enjoy the fact that all the problems came from
Spoiler alert
Neelix's cheese
[close]
.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on May 22, 2021, 07:34:35 PM
"Get this cheese to sickbay!" Love that line.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on May 23, 2021, 12:07:44 AM
That guy's line about what the Cardassian soldiers did always shocks me. Just not the kind of thing you expect to hear in Star Trek.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Johnny Textface on June 04, 2021, 12:26:29 AM
I've gone off ahead as enjoying this rewatch so much (not seen any since a mate used to buy them on VHS at release and lend me them, 4 episodes for £15?)

Tonight, however, I watched a Chekotay one called "Tattoo" and it was fucking abhorrent.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on June 04, 2021, 08:21:50 AM
They famously hired a charlatan to consult on Chakotay's Native American identity, which may be why stories focused on his heritage are never good.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on June 04, 2021, 09:32:08 AM
Quote from: Johnny Textface on June 04, 2021, 12:26:29 AM
I've gone off ahead as enjoying this rewatch so much (not seen any since a mate used to buy them on VHS at release and lend me them, 4 episodes for £15?)

Tonight, however, I watched a Chekotay one called "Tattoo" and it was fucking abhorrent.

2 episodes for £13.99 in WH Smith!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Johnny Textface on June 04, 2021, 10:14:49 AM
Quote from: Malcy on June 04, 2021, 09:32:08 AM
2 episodes for £13.99 in WH Smith!

Wow only 2 lol
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on June 04, 2021, 08:06:01 PM
Looks like I'm playing catchup now.

The 37's. This turned out a lot better than I thought it was going to. A really nice, warm episode all round, and although I'm not sure big reveals about real people from history are necessarily what I want from Star Trek - it's much more of a Doctor Who thing, really - I thought it worked out quite well. I would have preferred
Spoiler alert
a handful of the crew to leave at the end, as it was maybe a touch too saccharine
[close]
, but yeah, I liked it.
Also only just noticed that's the start of season 2. IMDB trivia tells me it was originally intended to be the final episode of the first season, which definitely makes sense with the potential ending. Kind of stunned it actually ended on the run-of-the-mill Learning Curve.

Projections. There's some good Doctor stuff in this, but overall it felt really underwhelming. The fact that he's
Spoiler alert
on the holodeck
[close]
was obvious to me almost from the start - the title doesn't help in that regard - and, ultimately, it lacked the gravitas of something like Frame of Mind or The Inner Light.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: petril on June 04, 2021, 09:02:13 PM
Quote from: Deanjam on April 21, 2021, 04:43:04 PM
Another example of how Neelix is actually the darkest and most depressive character in all Star Trek.

yeah. just enough of his background to see despite the young, eagerness to please and fit in, his fate is going to be Leonard de Tompkinson. he'll be drifting forever, everyone's friend but with none of his own
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on June 05, 2021, 10:02:56 PM
Initiations. Starring Nog as a Crap Klingon. The overall idea was what increasingly feels like typical Star Trek, done with a degree of competence but without really standing out. My favourite moment was probably Captain Neelix.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Johnny Textface on June 05, 2021, 10:51:53 PM
I just watched "Cold Fire". The way they resolved it was the laziest writing. Is season 2 considered "shaky"?
Seems a bit shaky.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on June 05, 2021, 11:05:34 PM
Season 2 is definitely shaky. There's a collection of good episodes and a couple of excellent ones on the way, but there's also the Kazon/Paris/Seska arcs which all completely suck.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on June 23, 2021, 09:19:29 AM
Elogium. Neelix and Kes play out the first episode of series four of Men Behaving Badly. Meanwhile, Voyager gets in a fight over who it can shag. Quite a nice episode, I like Neelix and Kes in general so far and their story was quite sweet, and weird space anomalies and lifeforms are always up my street.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on June 23, 2021, 09:24:31 AM
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, Captain."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on June 23, 2021, 10:03:27 AM
Elogium is a good one. Kes gets to be properly alien.

I love that crazed look on her face when she eats the bouquet of flowers.

Nice to hear people being positive about Neelix and Kes generally. I always feel they both get a lot of uncalled for dissin'.

Before and After in Season 3 (let's not talk about it prematurely - though it is a time travel show about travelling backwards!) is Kes-based and excellent.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on June 23, 2021, 03:07:02 PM
Yea who's having a go at kes, the script for her is a bit naff but it's an ace performace
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on June 23, 2021, 03:12:37 PM
Just unfortunate how much Jennifer Lien's life has fallen apart since then.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on June 24, 2021, 09:13:32 PM
Non Sequitur. In general, alternate timeline / 'is this real?' type plots tend to get tiresome for me, but I thought this was pulled off really well. Admittedly, Kim's reasoning for going back was almost uncomfortably 'nice', and frankly it really needed a debriefing at the end where he now explains
Spoiler alert
exactly how Star Fleet has responded to Voyager's disappearance
[close]
, but otherwise I enjoyed it.

Twisted. "I don't suppose anyone here knows the way to the bridge...?" I love a good 'what the fuck is going on' episode and that supplied both the weirdness and humour that can come with one. Excellent stuff.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on June 25, 2021, 12:35:24 AM
Twisted is a great one, even if the idea extends beyond the capabilities of the special effects. Would have been nice to have the corridors get properly fucked up, people going upside down, that sort of thing.

Janeway getting mentally stuck between the two states of existence is properly spooky.

Plus I love that the solution is
Spoiler alert
to just do nothing and let the anomaly pass through you.
[close]
Can't remember if that's ever been done in Star Trek before.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on June 25, 2021, 12:36:47 AM
Quote from: Lemming on June 25, 2021, 12:35:24 AM
Plus I love that the solution is
Spoiler alert
to just do nothing and let the anomaly pass through you.
[close]
Can't remember if that's ever been done in Star Trek before.
The funny thins is, while I was watching it I was actually thinking that might be a really good way to deal with it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on June 25, 2021, 01:20:49 AM
Quote from: Lemming on June 25, 2021, 12:35:24 AM
Plus I love that the solution is
Spoiler alert
to just do nothing and let the anomaly pass through you.
[close]
Can't remember if that's ever been done in Star Trek before.

The Spectre of the Gun episode from TOS, maybe? Took a lot of effort for them to do nothing.

Agree on the SFX, they were fine, but would have been ace if they could have done more.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on June 26, 2021, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: purlieu on June 24, 2021, 09:13:32 PM
Non Sequitur. In general, alternate timeline / 'is this real?' type plots tend to get tiresome for me, but I thought this was pulled off really well. Admittedly, Kim's reasoning for going back was almost uncomfortably 'nice', and frankly it really needed a debriefing at the end where he now explains
Spoiler alert
exactly how Star Fleet has responded to Voyager's disappearance
[close]
, but otherwise I enjoyed it.

Twisted. "I don't suppose anyone here knows the way to the bridge...?" I love a good 'what the fuck is going on' episode and that supplied both the weirdness and humour that can come with one. Excellent stuff.

Those are two solid eps to which I would make a beeline in a hits-only re-watch. I enjoyed meeting
Spoiler alert
Libby and seeing San Fransisco again
[close]
in the former and then in Twisted I like how
Spoiler alert
Tuvok tenderly places his hand near to Janeway just before the anomaly engulfs them
[close]
. Just a really lovely moment.

I am not re-watching with you at the moment btw because I'm handling a house move. I just know these episodes so well!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on June 26, 2021, 01:46:23 PM
Quote from: Lemming on June 25, 2021, 12:35:24 AM
Plus I love that the solution is
Spoiler alert
to just do nothing and let the anomaly pass through you.
[close]
Can't remember if that's ever been done in Star Trek before.

It's a
Spoiler alert
Chinese Finger Trap situation: relax and stop trying so hard!
[close]
I remember Data fucking about with one in The Last Outpost but I'm not sure if the metaphor actually played out in the A story.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on June 26, 2021, 08:58:21 PM
Parturition. Ah well that was lovely. Impossible to ignore its almost cloying sweetness, but it really worked for me. Even some slight growth in Paris's character.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on June 26, 2021, 09:40:49 PM
Quote from: purlieu on June 26, 2021, 08:58:21 PM
Parturition. Ah well that was lovely. Impossible to ignore its almost cloying sweetness, but it really worked for me. Even some slight growth in Paris's character.

We also see season 1-3 Janeway in combat action here. A carefully modulated phaser blast to knock out the dinosaur ship's weapons with one shot.

Season 4-7 Janeway will be more: "Tuvok fire torpedoes at them until they either give up or explode."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on June 26, 2021, 09:51:11 PM
Ah well, she's not long out of Federation space still.

Persistence of Vision. Another example of what is far from an original Trek story, but handled with enough of an original slant to be really entertaining. The twist at the end was really nice.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 04, 2021, 04:40:36 PM
Tattoo.
Fucking hell that was bad. I have no words.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 04, 2021, 07:03:12 PM
Quote from: purlieu on July 04, 2021, 04:40:36 PM
Tattoo.
Fucking hell that was bad. I have no words.

This one was a hit for the fake Native American cultural expert they hired, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Chairman Yang on July 04, 2021, 08:20:14 PM
Jamake Highwater!

That's the one where white spacemen gave Inuits the power of civilisation because of their 'respect for the land', right? Fuck me :D
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 05, 2021, 12:37:34 PM
That's the one. Horrible, horrible stuff. And in no way helped by a really dire script, nobody putting in a convincing performance, and the worst special effects I've seen on Star Trek since the early days of TNG.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Johnny Textface on July 05, 2021, 10:34:07 PM
Season 2 has some absolute shite in it, but it does pick up considerably after the harrowing nadir Paris warp 10 shambles.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 06, 2021, 06:27:38 PM
Cold Fire. The way that began, I thought we might be on for something seismic, maybe a chance for them to shift forward along their journey perhaps. But no, instead it was a generic Star Trek story, with nothing memorable other than a vague hint that Suspiria might be back at some point. Ugh.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 06, 2021, 08:02:58 PM
Manoeuvres. Ah, the Crap Klingons are back, with the return of someone who... frankly, I'd forgotten all about. Actually that was quite a fun little action story, very enjoyable. That ending, though.

Resistance. That was very moving in places, and a decent action story in others. Good to see the quality increasing again after a few so-so episodes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 07, 2021, 09:19:00 PM
Prototype. A nicely twisty, turny story that didn't feel particularly like any previous Trek story. Very enjoyable.

Deathwish. Well, that was a wonderful mix of lots of fun and nice philosophy. I've always enjoyed Q episodes and after seven seasons it was great to have him back. (Watching these according to the Star Trek Chronology Project (http://thestartrekchronologyproject.blogspot.com/), which is why I seem to have jumped ahead here). Nice to see a familiar face appear in this too.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on July 07, 2021, 09:30:41 PM
Resistance and Prototype are both great stories. Have almost no memory of Maneuevers at all, no surprise since it's part of the relentlessly shit Seska/Kazon arc.

Cold Fire is worth it just for the scene where Tuvok's blood starts to get boiled.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on July 08, 2021, 08:33:53 AM
Death Wish is very good. The Q episodes in Voyager have diminishing returns over time, but De Lancie is always a hoot, and he and Kate Mulgrew have great chemistry.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Johnny Textface on July 09, 2021, 08:48:00 PM
Innocence is another one like Deathwish that has really entertaining philosophical ideas which are explored nicely and pretty quite well. Also more Tuvok which is great as he's probably the most interesting character in the show upto now. I'd give it a heavy 4. There's potential here.

There's a bit where he starts singing around the campfire which I'm just sampling.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 11, 2021, 11:30:27 PM
Alliances. Ah good, more Crap Klingons. Actually, that was a lot more satisfying than normal, even if the twist was about as surprising as Mr. Surprising's Surprising Gag made on April Fools Day.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 12, 2021, 11:24:08 PM
Threshold. lol what the fuck was that
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 12, 2021, 11:45:06 PM
Quote from: purlieu on July 12, 2021, 11:24:08 PM
Threshold. lol what the fuck was that

You know, I think that's the best description of that episode I've ever seen. Fair play.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on July 13, 2021, 09:05:48 AM
An episode that touches on a lot of different scientific concepts and gets them all hilariously wrong. But I think the body horror stuff is done very well.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on July 13, 2021, 10:19:36 AM
Threshold is laugh-out-loud funny but I like the almost supernatural horror of it, where going at Warp 10 breaks reality so severely that it starts rewriting your DNA.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on July 13, 2021, 10:38:01 AM
The biggest problem is they just abandon the warp 10 tech. The Doctor shows at the end that he can undo the mutating, so why not just use it and get home.

A fun episode for me. Not even close to Voyager's worst.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 13, 2021, 11:53:13 AM
At the very least, surely a shuttle craft with that drive could have been programmed to carry a message back to the Alpha Quadrant.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on July 13, 2021, 04:58:33 PM
Love Threshold. So much fun.

And the salamander creatures are CUTE.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 13, 2021, 06:52:46 PM
Berman (or Braga, can't remember which talentless peasant was responsible) said the salamander thing was supposed to suggest that maybe human evolution[nb]The Doctor speculates that Paris & Janeway's new form may be a future stage in human development[/nb] isn't necessarily towards 'better' and 'more advanced' lifeforms as an unexpected twist. That implies that evolution is pre-determined within our DNA, but it's not. If it is a case of hyper-evolution, then what it actually suggests is that giant salamanders are the optimum lifeform for Warp 10 travel.

Also Warp 10 corresponds to 'infinite speed', but that's conceptually flawed because 'infinite speed' isn't a real, tangible thing. I'm not sure infinite anything is tangible and physically possible. Infinity is largely just a mathematical concept, isn't it? It certainly causes problems here.

To achieve 'infinite speed', you'd need to accelerate at an infinite rate. That would require infinite engine power, which requires infinite fuel (enriched dilithium, or whatever they found, will not provide this), and then you need and infinitely powerful structural integrity field and infinitely powerful inertial dampeners to survive the infinite acceleration and so on. And you wouldn't occupy every point in the universe at once, you'd occupy every point in a straight line on your current course at once. But paradoxically, you'd only be at each point for an infinitely small length of time. So you'd be everywhere, and simultaneously nowhere at once.

And then even handwaving all that illogic away and accepting that infinite velocity can be achieved, occurs in the way it's presented in the episode, and turns people into salamanders, there's Deanjam's point. With the effects reversible, there is literally no reason not to use it to get home.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on July 13, 2021, 06:57:47 PM
If Paris was everywhere at every time surely someone saw him and went "fucking hell"!

Bonus points for his half evolved state being a possible inspiration for the Mutants in The Mighty Boosh.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on July 13, 2021, 10:06:11 PM
Janeway and Paris did it, the dirty feckers!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Johnny Textface on July 13, 2021, 11:24:19 PM
Love the way they just abandon their kids at the end without so much as a glance back.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 13, 2021, 11:44:26 PM
Meld. Wonderful performance from Tim Russ. I'd never considered just how well he plays a Vulcan before this. The Doctor was a hoot, too. The Paris storyline felt like filler, though.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on July 14, 2021, 01:40:34 AM
Russ is great in Meld. "You're not invulnerable, hologram." And of course Brad Dourif is always great doing his thing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on July 14, 2021, 08:52:48 AM
Brad Dourif is always great. With the black Betazoid contact lenses I can't help but think he looks like a certain dead-eyed standup much discussed on these boards.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on July 14, 2021, 09:05:00 AM
Brad is gorgeous
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Attila on July 14, 2021, 10:17:08 AM
Quote from: Johnny Textface on July 13, 2021, 11:24:19 PM
Love the way they just abandon their kids at the end without so much as a glance back.

Yes! I'd only seen a few Voyager episodes when it first ran, and then last year we went through the whole series (I'd only seen stuff from the first series, so it was like a whole new Star Trek festival of episodes for me), but this was one I remembered from original viewing. One minute, you're going, 'Oooooh, salamander babbies, yay!' and then they're just abandoning them. Feh.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on July 14, 2021, 06:30:34 PM
Quote from: Malcy on July 13, 2021, 06:57:47 PM
If Paris was everywhere at every time surely someone saw him and went "fucking hell"!

Well, all ways have Paris.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 14, 2021, 11:52:19 PM
Dreadnought. Fine, somewhat tense episode. Not much to say about it really.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 20, 2021, 10:47:48 PM
Lifesigns. That was really lovely. I'm a sucker for those kinds of stories and it ticked all the boxes. The Paris being late subplot is hopefully leading somewhere interesting as it's mildly irritating; the Crap Klingons / Seska thing that's been shoved into each episode for two minutes is almost certainly leading to a tedious season finale, annoyingly.

Investigations. Oh, well those two sub-plots tied themselves up nicely here. The Paris thing actually took me by surprise, which was nice, and thankfully the overall thing was an enjoyable crime investigation story that justified the mild tedium of its two setup plots. I have to be honest, at this point I still don't get why people seem to hate Neelix. I find his naive optimism strangely refreshing.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on July 20, 2021, 11:00:24 PM
Yea nelix is alright. He's a cunt, but I feel like he's our cunt by this point
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on July 20, 2021, 11:39:31 PM
The Seska/Paris/Jonas thing was done so halfarsedly, so rushed. It's really emblematic of VOY's fundamental flaws. A premise that lent itself to a serialised or arc format, produced by people who saw serials as antithetical to their franchising business model. How many episodes was it from the initial indications of a Crap Klingon quisling on board (Seska), through Paris being insubordinate, to Jonas getting toasted? A half dozen? A dozen? And of those, it was either the main A or B plot, or some little snippet awkwardly shoved in. It's all very well Paris's behaviour making sense in retrospect, but having a plot that requires you to "remember when?" is at odds with the standalone concepts they wanted: "No! There is no remember when, they're on a spaceship, it's flying home, and this week X happens..."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on July 21, 2021, 12:27:22 AM
Lifesigns is great. As for Neelix, a lot of the hate towards him is probably received wisdom in the same vein as "Kirk shags everything" and "Wesley is the worst character in the history of fiction", which is to say people tend to exaggerate how bad he was. Though I never really warmed up to him, and the fact that his girlfriend is 3 really doesn't help.

We're now coming dangerously close to TUVIX.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on July 21, 2021, 03:43:21 PM
Quote from: Lemming on July 21, 2021, 12:27:22 AM
Lifesigns is great. As for Neelix, a lot of the hate towards him is probably received wisdom in the same vein as "Kirk shags everything" and "Wesley is the worst character in the history of fiction", which is to say people tend to exaggerate how bad he was. Though I never really warmed up to him, and the fact that his girlfriend is 3 really doesn't help.

Agreed.

Quote from: Lemming on July 21, 2021, 12:27:22 AM
We're now coming dangerously close to TUVIX.

Hooray!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 21, 2021, 10:12:54 PM
Deadlock. Cor, that was fantastic, really tense, a genuine "how are they going to get out of this?" feeling, and a properly brave move in
Spoiler alert
literally killing an entire Voyager crew - and the one on the undamaged ship!
[close]
. And all from a lovely spacial anomaly, too. Might be my favourite to date.

Innocence. A nice, very trad kind of story with some nice Tuvok stuff that does a really good rug-pull in the last five minutes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 22, 2021, 10:46:20 PM
The Thaw. Not since Doctor's Who's Paradise Towers have so many good ideas been translated so horribly onto screen. Like being pummelled in the face with a sign that reads "clowns are creepy" while someone plays a Casio keyboard in the background.

Tuvix. Wow. A great concept, lots of humour, lots of emotion, a tough ethical dilemma and a morally ambiguous ending. That's the first Voyager episode that really belongs up there with the best of Star Trek. The best thing? The first review on IMDB is someone using it as a soapbox to complain about abortion.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Camp Tramp on July 22, 2021, 10:49:04 PM
Quote from: purlieu on July 22, 2021, 10:46:20 PM
The Thaw. Not since Doctor's Who's Paradise Towers have so many good ideas been translated so horribly onto screen. Like being pummelled in the face with a sign that reads "clowns are creepy" while someone plays a Casio keyboard in the background.


Disagree with you about 'The Thaw'. It really reminds me of a ToS episode. Micheal McKean is great as Fear and the ending is one of Star Trek's most memorable. And I say that as someone who doesn't particularly like Voyager.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on July 22, 2021, 10:56:01 PM
The Thaw is one of Voyager's best. Love it.

Tuvix is overrated due to the central moral dilemma, but it is still great. And it is plainly simple that Janeway made the right choice. Not too dissimilar to Phage. Fuck Tuvix the fucking cunt.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on July 22, 2021, 11:07:40 PM
Great casting and makeup on that actor, he really does look like a cross between the other two.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on July 22, 2021, 11:12:20 PM
Love the campy casio clown one and the tuvix one
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 22, 2021, 11:51:40 PM
I'm not sure what it is, but I find the whole clowns / circus type thing being deployed as 'creepy' really naff, always have done. Clowns played straight can be scary, but as soon as they're intended to be scary I just find them irritating. And the single set in primary colours, combined with the 10 years out of date keyboard presets soundtrack, the whole production felt really cheap and tacky and really not very threatening.
As I say, I like the overall plot and the ideas behind it, but the realisation of it just did very little for me at all.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on July 24, 2021, 03:28:13 AM
The only thing I remember from The Thaw is Janeway managing to intimidate the personification of fear itself, which is enough to make the episode a classic.

Tuvix is complicated, I always broadly sided with Janeway under the logic that Tuvok and Neelix were not capable of making their own decisions while fused into Tuvix, but it's tricky, especially when Tuvix begs for mercy/life at the end. Interesting to think if it would have been any different if only their minds were merged - like, Tuvix's mind existed inside the body of Tuvok or Neelix, with the other body just being lifeless. Would forcefully un-fusing their minds and sending each back to its own body be an act of murder? Surely it's no different from what she did here, and yet, un-fusing Tuvix somehow feels much more akin to murder. Dunno. Great episode, though, a lot of my fav Star Trek episodes are the ones based on totally original, fictional dilemmas that have no real-world allegory, and are just purely in the realm of "hey wouldn't it be well fucked if THIS happened".
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on July 24, 2021, 12:15:35 PM
I'm more sympathetic  to Janeway than I used to be on this, more unforgivable crimes are yet to come. In a trolley problem kind of way I can kinda justify it, but you can use the same logic to harvest a healthy person's organs to save dying people. Ultimately I think I'd say it's wrong, you can't kill actively someone to save other people. In this situation Neelix and Tuvok are essentially dead, the trolley has run over them, you can't then decide to rebuild them by hacking apart the guy on the other track and using his bits. Is a brilliant dilemma if nothing else, really messes with your psychology.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on July 24, 2021, 12:20:57 PM
I like how tuvix can be read as a 'some times there are no moral choices, and yet you have to make one' situation, there's no neat solution to please everyone, which is always a tempting way to end a story
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: petril on July 24, 2021, 02:01:22 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mEhWvxgHB0g/T8wjJ8pyNJI/AAAAAAAAAa4/WrVu6P3YcOk/s1600/Tuvix.jpg)

that pattern on Tuvix's top always unsettled me watching the episode. proper creeped me out. the way the orchid imprinted the image of it's flower in there like that
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Blumf on July 24, 2021, 05:47:50 PM
If Tuvix had stayed around, would he have suffered from that degenerative neural condition Tuvok has?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on July 24, 2021, 07:42:26 PM
Yes but combined with Neelix's lolrandomness, nobody would have noticed the symptoms.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 24, 2021, 11:36:11 PM
Resolutions. Although every single beat of the story was familiar, borderline predictable, it was told with enough confidence and heart to make it compelling.

Basics, Part 1. It's taken two seasons, but finally the Crap Klingons actually provide some sort of genuine threat. A mixture of very good and tedious. Not looking forward to The Planet That Time Forgot up next.

Two seasons in, I would say I'm finding it solid but rarely exciting. There have been a few genuine standouts and a couple of stinkers, but it's mostly just 7/10 basic Star Trek ideas executed fairly well. My girlfriend's already given up, as she's more drawn to characters and there are still quite a lot of fairly two dimensional people in it at the minute.

Basics, Part 2. I enjoyed the planet stuff being the kind of story that Star Trek doesn't really do, although I could have done without the b-movie cavemen and terrible CG dinosaur. I thought the Suder plot was really good. Although with at least two more down there and a few redshirts in the past, there's barely going to be any crew left by the time they get back to the Alpha Quadrant. I'm thankful the Seska plot has resolved, even if we're still in Crap Klingon territory.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 24, 2021, 11:45:10 PM
Spoiler:
Spoiler alert
No more Crap Klingons
[close]
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on July 25, 2021, 04:05:37 PM
Quite like the Basics two-partner. I remember that when it was on TV, I figured out approximately what would happen (re:
Spoiler alert
Paris, Suder and the Doctor
[close]
) in Part 2 before it aired, so I guess it was all too predictable but it was a fun ride all the same.

Genuine question: why is Voyager so weak compared to its predecessors? And please understand that I like Voyager; it just happens to be my fourth favourite Trek generation. I just can't work out what happened to make it a sort-of "TNG Lite" after the universe-expanding triumph of DS9.

People tend to say "Trek was running out of steam" but what is really meant by that? And Voyager was on-air while DS9 was still rocking pretty hard, no?

(I don't want this to become a Voyager-bashing thread after so much positivity here; I would just love to know why it is probably the fourth-best Trek despite coming hot on the heels of what was either the third, second, or best-ever Trek depending on one's point of view).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on July 25, 2021, 04:16:24 PM
Voyager just didn't have the characters to carry weaker plotlines. I'd lay the blame at the writing more than the actors, but Robert Picardo and Jeri Ryan always lifted weak material in away that no one else could. The greater strength of the Next Gen and especially DS9 is the greater quality and dearth of secondary and tertiary characters that could do that consistently. For me anyway.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on July 25, 2021, 04:45:40 PM
Opinion might change after rewatching both series in full, but I don't think Voyager is weaker than the previous series. On the whole, I think it's got the edge over TNG - TNG has some incredible high points, mostly in the third and fourth seasons, which Voyager never quite matches. But Voyager is just straightforward consistent fun all the way to the end, largely getting better as it goes along, whereas TNG starts to get very rote and low-energy later on. Seasons four through six of Voyager are really high quality most of the way through with only one or two missteps. It also takes itself less seriously than TNG tends to, which is a massive bonus.

Voyager also brings up more interesting dilemmas than TNG, IMO - Tuvix is an obvious one, but there's also stuff like whether or not to kill the Vidiians to retrieve Neelix's lungs,
Spoiler alert
B'Elanna wanting to alter her baby's DNA to remove the Klingon heritage
[close]
,
Spoiler alert
what to do about the beacon that broadcasts memories of a holocaust into your mind against your will
[close]
,
Spoiler alert
what to do about the murderer who is suddenly able to feel guilt for the first time
[close]
,
Spoiler alert
whether or not it's a good idea for the EMH to remove painful memories from his mind
[close]
, stuff like that. They all tended to be explored quite organically and with varying degrees of nuance, whereas TNG has a tendency to lean towards "here's a dilemma with an obvious solution, here's a strawman to argue why the obvious solution is wrong, here's Picard telling you why you should agree with the obvious solution, okay, thanks for watching". There are some exceptions of course - Half a Life and I, Borg being the ones that spring to mind.

DS9 is one I've never quite gotten on with properly, the first four seasons are great but the Dominion War and Section 31 and all that really took me out of it. Some of it was well-written, but it just really wasn't what I like in Star Trek. Nog's gotten his leg blown off, Betazed has been nuked, Section 31 are planning a genocide, and worst of all, we've got to go to Vic's fucking bar, oh god. The relatively low-key Cardassian/Bajor situation in the early seasons was always a lot more interesting and made for much more engaging stories, I thought. Also fuck Quark, I've got nothing but total respect for Armin Shimerman but fuck I hate Quark episodes.

TOS is always the tricky one to try and place against the others. It was my favourite for years when I was a kid, and I still think stuff like The Doomsday Machine, A Taste of Armageddon, Errand of Mercy, City on the Edge of Forever etc beat the shit out of almost anything the Berman-era produced. But at the same time, it's so inconsistent, a good 30% of it is genuinely just shit, and the recurrent sexism is repulsive enough to undermine the whole show. Tough to rate.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: JamesTC on July 25, 2021, 04:54:19 PM
Voyager was forced by the network to be purely episodic. I imagine even the mild serialised storytelling in Season 1 and 2 (which wasn't too dissimilar in style to DS9 Season 3 and 4) was too much for the network and they were forced to reign things in.

For a long time, this has been considered a mistake by the network which harmed the show but I think the success that Voyager is seeing these days on streaming platforms (often the most popular of all Treks) shows it did have a logic to it.

I just wish the success that Voyager has these days would translate into an HD upgrade but that doesn't seem like it will ever happen.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 25, 2021, 06:14:56 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on July 25, 2021, 04:05:37 PM
Quite like the Basics two-partner. I remember that when it was on TV, I figured out approximately what would happen (re:
Spoiler alert
Paris, Suder and the Doctor
[close]
) in Part 2 before it aired, so I guess it was all too predictable but it was a fun ride all the same.

Genuine question: why is Voyager so weak compared to its predecessors? And please understand that I like Voyager; it just happens to be my fourth favourite Trek generation. I just can't work out what happened to make it a sort-of "TNG Lite" after the universe-expanding triumph of DS9.

People tend to say "Trek was running out of steam" but what is really meant by that? And Voyager was on-air while DS9 was still rocking pretty hard, no?

(I don't want this to become a Voyager-bashing thread after so much positivity here; I would just love to know why it is probably the fourth-best Trek despite coming hot on the heels of what was either the third, second, or best-ever Trek depending on one's point of view).

Since DS9 was sort of it's own thing to a degree, with it's longer arcs and more stationary setting, and ran alongside both TNG & VOY it makes sense that VOY was made into TNG's direct successor. And it doesn't work as well as TNG, because a) we've already seen TNG and b) the characters overall aren't as strong and a lot of them were left underdeveloped, imo.

I also get the impression that the writing staff were more invested in DS9, and maybe worked harder to make it what they wanted it to be, resisting things like Berman's desire to end the Dominion War in 6 episodes. Like it was their baby whilst TNG was Rodenberry's baby, and VOY was still sort of Roddenberry's baby because it was aboard a starship.

Back to Voyager, character development, to my recollection, comes in awkward lumps. You only see little snippets of Harry Kim going from a green ensign to an experienced bridge officer before suddenly he's telling Janeway he'd be a Lt. or Lt. Commander if they were still in the Alpha Quadrant. Janeway and Tuvok leaving Chakotay out of the loop their plan to have Paris leave the ship to expose Jonas should've had some follow up or consequences vis-a-vis Janeway and Chakotay's relationship. And the less said about
Spoiler alert
her carry on in Equinox
[close]
, the better. How on earth would you just quietly forget about that?

Starfleet/Maquis interaction got fuck all use too. And season 4
Spoiler alert
is the Janeway and Seven show. Most of the rest don't do that much.
[close]

Quote from: Lemming on July 25, 2021, 04:45:40 PM
TOS is always the tricky one to try and place against the others. It was my favourite for years when I was a kid, and I still think stuff like The Doomsday Machine, A Taste of Armageddon, Errand of Mercy, City on the Edge of Forever etc beat the shit out of almost anything the Berman-era produced. But at the same time, it's so inconsistent, a good 30% of it is genuinely just shit, and the recurrent sexism is repulsive enough to undermine the whole show. Tough to rate.

Agree with this, I usually leave it off to the side if I'm assessing them against each other. The good episodes are great, but there's some serious rubbish in it. Mudd's Women (oh look, slavery is legal in the 23rd century), The Alternative Factor, Spock's BRAAAAAAIINNN, Catspaw, so forth.

My favourite one is where Scotty visits the brothel planet because a woman making a mistake left him with an irrational hatred of all women and he has to go fuck his frustrations away. That's regressive even for the 60s.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 25, 2021, 07:44:30 PM
TOS is absolutely wonderful when it goes all out psychedelic and weird and attempting to be mind-blowing, but the more pedestrian episodes I really struggle with. I remember watching an episode a day and the third season was an absolute chore, checking the folder on my computer for how many episodes were left and cringing every time that it wasn't like, three or something. Some proper b-movie schlock in those later episodes.

Only being two seasons into VOY, all I can do is compare those with the first two of TNG and DS9, and interestingly, TNG comes out lowest when it comes to my episode-by-episode averages:
TNG1: 6.88
TNG2: 7.36
DS91: 7.57894737
DS92: 7.46153846
VOY1: 7.25
VOY2: 7.46153846

The first two TNGs have so many mediocre episodes in them, but they're definitely elevated by some character stuff, even in its infancy. DS9 comes top for me, almost entirely because the first two seasons feel like a sitcom. That said, 4-7 are my four highest ranked Star Trek series. TOS3 is lowest, unsurprisingly.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 25, 2021, 10:26:46 PM
Sacred Ground. Ehhhh.

False Profits. Haha, I knew exactly who that was going to be about from the title and the presence of a wormhole alone. Loved it.

Flashback. Not quite the bundle of just that Trials and Tribble-ations was, but I still really enjoyed that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 26, 2021, 10:21:44 PM
The Chute. Christ, what a bunch of uninspired, predictable guff.

Remember. About halfway through I was almost willing to give up, it seeming like a tedious TNG retread (interesting to read that it was initially intended for TNG). Thankfully the second half redeemed it somewhat, with a decent story in there.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on July 26, 2021, 11:15:40 PM
Always loved the rampant homoeroticism of The Chute. I mean, it's even called "The Chute", doesn't get much more explicit than that. The implant thing that makes you go crazy is so funny, they clearly wanted to do a classic prison movie where the heroes would become frayed and unstuck over time, but they couldn't let more than a day or two elapse because this is Star Trek, so here you go, brain implant that sends you crazy. I always liked Janeway just sliding in and wide-beam stunning absolutely everyone too.

Sacred Ground is a weird one. Janeway's trust in rationality and science is tested, but ultimately vindicated, and yet the ending still tries to have it both ways by suggesting she's had her worldview seriously shaken. I could never really figure out what they were going for with that one.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 27, 2021, 11:23:34 PM
Quote from: Lemming on July 26, 2021, 11:15:40 PMI always liked Janeway just sliding in and wide-beam stunning absolutely everyone too.
Yes, she's an unlikely action hero but managed it superbly in that scene.
QuoteSacred Ground is a weird one. Janeway's trust in rationality and science is tested, but ultimately vindicated, and yet the ending still tries to have it both ways by suggesting she's had her worldview seriously shaken. I could never really figure out what they were going for with that one.
It was all so wishy-washy, trying to make multiple points but not sticking to any of them, and using a lot of pretty unoriginal ideas in the process.

The Swarm. The Doctor's story was a wonderfully emotional one, but annoyingly it meant that the titular aliens were given less screen time than they deserved. It could have been a Q Who style showdown but lacked the tension. Ultimately felt like less than the sum of its parts.

Future's End. Starring Sarah Silverman as A Nerd. There's something quite quaint about the naffness of '90s Earth-based sci-fi pre-Matrix. It's like The Voyage Home with all the charm of Stargate. I love the totally inaccurate computer stuff - a PC with more than 3TB of storage in 1996! Downloading files meaning they're deleted from their original location. There are so many continuity errors: a limo driver accelerating with doors opening followed by a shot of the car driving off with doors closed; Chronowerx and Chronowerks logos in consecutive shots. The Doctor is an absolute hoot. And good to see the Eugenics Wars plot was incorporated seamlessly into the continuity. Lovely stuff. Chakotay and Torres in the shuttle was a really lovely intimate conversation of the kind I wish Voyager had more of. I had a lot of fun watching it, but probably not in the way it was intended.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on July 27, 2021, 11:38:47 PM
Quote from: purlieu on July 27, 2021, 11:23:34 PM
Future's End

CHRONOWERX STOCK IS ABOUT TO CRASH
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on July 28, 2021, 01:08:51 AM
Future's End is one of my favourite Treks. Everyone seems to be having a little bit more fun out and about in civvies, and Silverman & Ed Begley Jr are both terrific guest stars. I think the Voyage Home comparison is spot on, I like that for similar reasons. The Doctor's assault on the redknecks is a lot of fun "Divine intervention is unlikely." No wonder he gets the best lines, he nails them every time.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 28, 2021, 10:44:25 PM
Warlord. Started in a fairly underwhelming way, but Jennifer Lien's increasingly strong performance won me over by the end.

The Q and the Grey. Can't go wrong with a Q episode. All the usual nonsense with some really interesting continuum plotting. The civil war stuff got a bit much by the end, but overall, lovely. Suzie Plakson managed to up John Lancie in the smugness stakes.

Macrocosm. Voyager does Alien, and Janeway makes a brilliant Ripley. Lots of fun, and the kind of story that Voyager hasn't really done yet. Shame about the CG - it's something that Farscape will always have over its contemporaries.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 29, 2021, 10:54:27 PM
Fair Trade. The opening line was Neelix saying "Mr. Tuvok" instead of "Mr. Vulcan" so this episode was immediately dead to me.

Alter Ego. The final ten minutes saved this. The bulk of it was some really fucking terrible Fatal Attraction In Space bollocks, but the denouement had some great ideas and featured more character growth for Tuvok than the series has had to date.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on July 30, 2021, 12:56:40 AM
Amazed by how little I remember a couple of these recent ones. Warlord and Macrocosm are the only ones from your last two posts that stick in my mind, Warlord because of Lien's great chaotic evil performance and Macrocosm because it's fucking wicked.

Glancing over the episode list, there's a batch of good stuff towards the end of this season (albeit still with one or two notably shite ones to get through).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on July 30, 2021, 07:22:04 PM
Purlieu, are you watching these in order? Noticed since S3 that it isn't the same order I've been watching in.

Just hit S4. This and beyond is where I rewatched episodes most over the years. A lot I really enjoyed in the first 3. Episodes I had such little memory of and others from the early episodes that I've watched countless times.

I remember buying Caretaker for £13.99 on VHS and not seeing anymore until the local video shop randomly got Eye Of The Needle, one of my favourite Voyager episodes. Fuck paying that for 2 episodes regularly! I still have a box full of Trek VHS.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on July 30, 2021, 07:36:18 PM
There are a good few differences between Voyager S3's production order and the order they originally aired in. idk if that causes differences in the order between different streaming services.

Purlieu seems to be watching them in production order. With the exception of Basics part 2, which was made after Flashback, False Profits and Sacred Ground, but obviously has to be watched after Basics part 1.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on July 30, 2021, 07:56:38 PM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on July 30, 2021, 07:36:18 PM
There are a good few differences between Voyager S3's production order and the order they originally aired in. idk if that causes differences in the order between different streaming services.

Purlieu seems to be watching them in production order. With the exception of Basics part 2, which was made after Flashback, False Profits and Sacred Ground, but obviously has to be watched after Basics part 1.

Yeah I'm working off downloads which was the same as the Wikipedia episode guide.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on July 30, 2021, 08:03:30 PM
Quote from: purlieu on July 26, 2021, 10:21:44 PM

Remember. About halfway through I was almost willing to give up, it seeming like a tedious TNG retread (interesting to read that it was initially intended for TNG). Thankfully the second half redeemed it somewhat, with a decent story in there.

Funnily enough I didn't really remember 'Remember'. Was quite bored early on but it really picked up and I thought it was quite good.

I think Voyager had a missed opportunity on not building a recurring cast by having people they met along the way join the crew. Amelia Earhart, Arridor & Kol etc. Could have made an alternative version of a later episode and think it could really have added to the story. Unfortunately, I suppose the studio's need for it to be episodic for syndication restricted it a lot. You miss a few episodes and suddenly Earhart is living on the ship!

I wonder what it would have been like if Sarah Silverman had joined permanently like planned.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 30, 2021, 09:38:15 PM
Quote from: Malcy on July 30, 2021, 07:22:04 PM
Purlieu, are you watching these in order? Noticed since S3 that it isn't the same order I've been watching in.
I'm using the Star Trek Chronology Project (http://thestartrekchronologyproject.blogspot.com/). Was originally planning to actually interlink TNG, DS9 and VOY, but decided against it as it might have been a bit much for my partner. Next time I do a run through in a few years I'll probably try and follow that entire thing, though.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on July 30, 2021, 10:26:06 PM
Quote from: purlieu on July 30, 2021, 09:38:15 PM
I'm using the Star Trek Chronology Project (http://thestartrekchronologyproject.blogspot.com/). Was originally planning to actually interlink TNG, DS9 and VOY, but decided against it as it might have been a bit much for my partner. Next time I do a run through in a few years I'll probably try and follow that entire thing, though.

Ah yeah I forgot you were using that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on July 31, 2021, 11:44:18 PM
Coda. Ah, I love a story that keeps you second guessing all the way through. Nicely twisty turny, although I do question how easily Janeway accepted the afterlife idea.

Blood Fever. The violent horniness was always my least favourite aspect of Vulcan culture, so this really didn't do much for me. I enjoyed the much needed development of Paris and Torres's chemistry, and Paris as a character in general, but otherwise a lot of meh. Nice cliffhanger though.

Unity. Kind of wish there was more of a gap between the last episode and this, would have made it less contrived. Anyway, that's the most interesting Borg episode since The Best of Both Worlds, really good stuff.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on July 31, 2021, 11:50:15 PM
Two great episodes in Coda and Unity, and one decent one in Blood Fever.

Agree with you about pon farr, I never liked the concept either. Amok Time in general just doesn't make any sense to me, and it's got a lot to answer for. Vulcans, the logic pacifist people, can force each other to fight to the death with bladed weapons just to cancel their marriages? Yeah right. I like that Blood Fever is basically a story about consent, which, despite its flaws, is probably the most interesting thing that can really be done with the idea of pon farr.

Glad to hear you liked Unity. Voyager has by far the most interesting development of the Borg IMO, since they're mainly treated like a life-destroying cult, which you often get to see the human(oid) cost of. When Seven shows up later, there one or two really outstanding Borg episodes featuring her.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 04, 2021, 10:54:18 PM
Darkling. Great performance by Robert Picardo, but eh, it's just
Spoiler alert
Jekyll & Hyde in Space
[close]
. I find any tale that tries to philosophise by breaking things down to fairly black and white good vs. evil really tiresome.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on August 05, 2021, 12:17:24 AM
I like the bit where the Doctor is treating Torres and his inner Byron is coming out all creepy.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 05, 2021, 10:51:36 PM
Yes, that was pretty amusing.

Rise. Some nice Neelix & Tuvok stuff, but otherwise a ploddy story explained by some tedious exposition, and a script painfully full of clichés.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on August 05, 2021, 10:57:34 PM
Quote from: purlieu on August 05, 2021, 10:51:36 PM
Rise. Some nice Neelix & Tuvok stuff, but otherwise a ploddy story explained by some tedious exposition, and a script painfully full of clichés.

Yeah, the euphamism for Tuvok kicking a guy out of an orbital tether was a bit cheese.

"Wait where's Sklar?"
"Mr. Sklar... (dramatic pause)... returned to the surface."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 05, 2021, 11:06:28 PM
I get the feeling that among other Vulcans Tuvok would be seen as a bit of a comedian. He's always got some pithy comment.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 08, 2021, 12:06:10 AM
Favorite Son. Er

Before and After. Yesss that's more like it. I love a good reality-warping weird wtf story. I know there's a Year of Hell story coming up so it's a nice diversion from the episodic approach. Kes's new appearance is going to take a bit of getting used to, though.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 08, 2021, 11:06:07 PM
Real Life. A really good idea let down by a trite script and some irritating performances. Also a shame the Paris plot wasn't expanded upon further.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on August 08, 2021, 11:21:21 PM
Strange one, Real Life.

I get The Doctor he made the family so he'd experience family life and his family were improbably perfect to the point of making the experience useless, and if anything it was just making The Doctor into an arrogant knob cos his family is so perfect and everyone else's isn't. So I understand Torres offering to make them more realistic. But having his daughter die is a bit over the top. I know tragedy does unfortunately visit people and Paris gives him the big speech about how everyone on Voyager suffered a loss when they got taken to the Delta Quadrant etc. etc., but burying your 9 or 10 year old daughter is not really a normal, mundane part of family life that you just have to "deal with" is it?

And yeah, Belle's only a hologram. But so is The Doctor and the implication within the episode is that she's real to him. I hope Torres only gave the program general parameters and hadn't anticipated that outcome rather than programming it intentionally. Cos she's a horrible person if she did that on purpose.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 08, 2021, 11:27:05 PM
She said that the parameters she added would lead to random events, so I'd take it as that was the case. But yeah, it's basically pretty cringey awkward family stuff followed by a sudden death, which just doesn't quite work. I like that it gives the Doctor some emotional growth, especially as he's by far the most interesting character in the show, but it felt at least two drafts away from being the episode it wanted to be.
I was also expecting some guilt about the fact that the accident happened just after he'd changed the days she did her Futuristic Sport Practice, which would have been a more interesting use of the time than his son wanting to be a Klingon.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 09, 2021, 10:50:49 PM
Distant Origin. Some really original stuff in there, definitely enjoyed that. The Voth's actual origin story possibly tries to suspend disbelief a bit too much, but overall some great bold ideas and nice drama.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on August 10, 2021, 06:17:35 AM
I wonder how influenced it was by the Silurians in Doctor Who? A terrific episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 10, 2021, 11:08:33 PM
Displaced. Ah, a nicely escalating tense story. The Nyrians were sadly somewhat underdeveloped, but overall it was pretty good. Torres and Paris's relationship is becoming interesting at this point, after a few episodes of aimless flirting. Still a bit baffled by Kes breaking up with Neelix and timey-wimey stuff making her look totally different all in the space of two episodes, though. The show is going through some slightly odd changes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on August 11, 2021, 12:40:46 AM
Distant Origin is a classic, and I think it's one of those episodes that demonstrates what Voyager could do when the writers put their minds to it. It's simultaneously a bit too talky and "thoughtful" (for want of literally any better word) for TOS, but also too willfully schlocky and pulpy in concept for TNG - space dinosaurs! That middle ground is where Voyager really shines and blends the best of TOS and TNG, by doing plots that neither of those previous shows would have been likely to try.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 12, 2021, 08:26:43 PM
I always had a soft spot for Displaced. Such a great, simple, and unfamiliar idea. Also, I like their little hats.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 16, 2021, 10:54:10 PM
Worst Case Scenario. Ok, so the initial rug pull was pretty cheap, but otherwise a really fun story. The second act was probably the funniest Voyager has been so far, and I really enjoyed that, because humour was such a huge part of what made TNG and DS9 both entertaining and also relatable. Also probably a good light hearted tale before the season finale.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: petril on August 16, 2021, 11:20:31 PM
it also includes one of the nice little things in Star Trek - seeing one of the regular crew in a different colour uniform for a change
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 16, 2021, 11:51:31 PM
Ha, yes, Paris in gold was a nice novelty.

Scorpion Part 1. Wow. A lot to take in there. The briefest pre-credits sequence I've ever seen in anything, for a start. I like that this is the second Borg story in Voyager and the second to have the format subverted. Species 8472 are almost unfathomably powerful and it adds a level of threat totally unseen in the show so far. Amazing to think only a season ago we were still dealing with Crap Klingons. Glad I don't have a six month wait to get the conclusion.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on August 17, 2021, 12:02:27 AM
Yessss, it's finally Seven time. She gets off to a slightly rocky, sloppily-written start IIRC but after a few episodes she becomes a massive boost to the show and easily one of the best Star Trek characters.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 17, 2021, 11:11:57 AM
I've heard complaints that the scorpion parable is overused in media to the point of cliché, but I can't remember hearing it anywhere other than here.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on August 17, 2021, 11:28:09 AM
I think I've heard it but using other venomous animals, snakes and the like.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 17, 2021, 02:24:34 PM
Scorpion is a top-10 candidate for Voyager, I should think. Great stuff.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 17, 2021, 11:09:18 PM
Quote from: Lemming on August 17, 2021, 12:02:27 AM
Yessss, it's finally Seven time. She gets off to a slightly rocky, sloppily-written start IIRC but after a few episodes she becomes a massive boost to the show and easily one of the best Star Trek characters.
I was about to complain about spoilers, but given that she's in the opening credits it would be a bit unfair.

Scorpion Part 2. An excellent conclusion to the story. Jeri Ryan was fantastic throughout, definitely looking forward to seeing how her character develops. My only memories of Voyager are with her in, so I might start to remember the odd story from here on. I noticed Jennifer Lien is in the 'also starring' category now, which means she'll be on the way out soon no doubt. Weird how her character seemed to just get abandoned midway through the last season.

Quick third season summary: really picked up at the end with a run of great episodes, but there were a lot of really poor stories in there too, my average rating puts it at my least favourite series since TNG series 1.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on August 17, 2021, 11:13:46 PM
The Jennifer Lien situation is a mystery. Good actor who got very abruptly phased out, and it's never been made clear why. Since leaving Voyager she'd had a few run-ins with the law (which is a euphemistic way to put it) and never participated in any conventions or reunions or anything of the sort, to my knowledge.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Poobum on August 17, 2021, 11:24:48 PM
I always read that originally Harry Kim was for the chop before Garrett Wang got named in some magazines Sexy Blokes list leading to a late stage volt face to dumping Lien instead; the producers are so bad I can believe it. Also it's interesting to rewatch knowing that Mulgrew disliked and resented Ryan being added to the cast and treated her abysmally.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on August 17, 2021, 11:27:28 PM
It'll be interesting to see whether Lien participates in the upcoming Voyager documentary film. Of course it requires a) them to invite her, b) to agree.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on August 17, 2021, 11:53:44 PM
The official reason given at the time is that she was let go so they had room in the series budget to pay Jeri Ryan instead. Star Trek Voyager: A Celebration written last year says she was let go because she was 'very troubled' and 'unreliable'. But Lien was the only primary cast member who wasn't interviewed for the book.

Is she just not interested, completely gone off the rails, or is there a skeleton in there like there was with Grace Lee Whitney?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on August 18, 2021, 12:19:30 AM
Quote from: Lemming on August 17, 2021, 11:13:46 PM
The Jennifer Lien situation is a mystery. Good actor who got very abruptly phased out, and it's never been made clear why. Since leaving Voyager she'd had a few run-ins with the law (which is a euphemistic way to put it) and never participated in any conventions or reunions or anything of the sort, to my knowledge.

She did some. The last one was way back in 2010 in Las Vegas. Fans who've seen her live always say that she was shy and uncomfortable in public. That's also been the line from the other actors in the show, that she kept to herself.

(https://i.ibb.co/7VRQ0SB/Screenshot-2021-08-18-at-00-10-38-Jennifer-Lien-Reflects-On-Her-Time-With-Star-Trek-Voyager.png)

Quote from: Poobum on August 17, 2021, 11:24:48 PM
I always read that originally Harry Kim was for the chop before Garrett Wang got named in some magazines Sexy Blokes list leading to a late stage volt face to dumping Lien instead

Weird timing, but the Delta Flyers podcast this week is about Scorpion part 1, and Robbie McNeil asked Garrett about this rumour and he denied he was ever up for the chop. Of course, he also denied the stories of his being late for set being due to him partying in Vegas, even though he admitted that he was travelling from there when he was late.

Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on August 17, 2021, 11:53:44 PM
The official reason given at the time is that she was let go so they had room in the series budget to pay Jeri Ryan instead. Star Trek Voyager: A Celebration written last year says she was let go because she was 'very troubled' and 'unreliable'. But Lien was the only primary cast member who wasn't interviewed for the book.

Is she just not interested, completely gone off the rails, or is there a skeleton in there like there was with Grace Lee Whitney?

She's had drug trouble and has been arrested a couple of times, once for indecent exposure to a minor. Which I think was more her being off her head and forgetting she was undressed outside, rather than anything worse. Interesting that the book described her as unreliable as I've never heard anyone on the show bad mouth her. And as mentioned above, Kate Mulgrew gave Jeri Ryan a hard time because she blamed her for the way Lien was treated (whice was stupid and wrong and she has apologised to Ryan for her behaviour). Maybe the book writers were pissed off she wouldn't interview for them, but they need to understand her situation.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on August 18, 2021, 09:24:25 AM
Quote from: Deanjam on August 18, 2021, 12:19:30 AM
She's had drug trouble and has been arrested a couple of times, once for indecent exposure to a minor. Which I think was more her being off her head and forgetting she was undressed outside, rather than anything worse. Interesting that the book described her as unreliable as I've never heard anyone on the show bad mouth her. And as mentioned above, Kate Mulgrew gave Jeri Ryan a hard time because she blamed her for the way Lien was treated (whice was stupid and wrong and she has apologised to Ryan for her behaviour). Maybe the book writers were pissed off she wouldn't interview for them, but they need to understand her situation.

I'm aware of the issues she's had since leaving Voyager, but the book, being a licensed work, is the first 'official' suggestion that she was having problems during Voyager's production. You'd think if she didn't want to do an interview the writers would've just skimmed over the issue rather than print something that'd be potentially libelous if not true. Like everyone else has when talking about Voyager before.

Who knows?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: MojoJojo on August 18, 2021, 09:45:30 AM
Quote from: Deanjam on August 18, 2021, 12:19:30 AMAnd as mentioned above, Kate Mulgrew gave Jeri Ryan a hard time because she blamed her for the way Lien was treated (whice was stupid and wrong and she has apologised to Ryan for her behaviour). Maybe the book writers were pissed off she wouldn't interview for them, but they need to understand her situation.

The way I heard it was Mulgrew was pissed that she'd had this breakthrough role, where a mature woman is presented as something other than some ones mum, then the producers came and introduced some large chested blond in a tight catsuit. Who was immensely popular, with stories of reporters pushing past Kate to talk to Jeri. So it was annoyance at the character as more than the actress, and she's apologised about it now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 18, 2021, 10:09:28 AM
Yeah Voyager was pretty progressive in terms of gender compared with the other Trek shows and Seven of Nine was, on the face of it, a big step backwards. But she turned out to be a great character. It could so easily have gone wrong.

Mulgrew was out of line though - I get the impression she's quite forthright and that can sometimes spill over into bullying behaviour. The impression I get is that the only cast member she remains genuinely close to is Robert Picardo.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 18, 2021, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: MojoJojo on August 18, 2021, 09:45:30 AM
The way I heard it was Mulgrew was pissed that she'd had this breakthrough role, where a mature woman is presented as something other than some ones mum, then the producers came and introduced some large chested blond in a tight catsuit. Who was immensely popular, with stories of reporters pushing past Kate to talk to Jeri. So it was annoyance at the character as more than the actress, and she's apologised about it now.

Mulgrew's interpretation of why they hired Jerry Ryan was spot-on; I remember the press release at the time being about how they were channelling the original series and bringing sexy back. I can understand Mulgrew being frosty about that, though maybe being unpleasant to Ryan, who was simply an actor who had bagged herself a gig, wasn't really on. Production were incredibly lucky that Jerry Ryan turned out to be great. I don't think they hired her to be great.

I do hope the upcoming documentary tells the Lien story as it is. I want them to be compassionate and respectful but also that they just tell us what the fuck happened. Some details are none of our business, but I sure would welcome the basic truth of this in a lengthy telling of the story of Star Trek: Voyager.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 18, 2021, 10:32:11 PM
Cheers, this is all fascinating reading!

The Gift. Two stories that really feel let down by the enforced episodic structure. Kes's changes have been rushed - I'm glad she and Neelix finally actually got a conversation about their breakup here, if nothing else - but this was ridiculous, basically 20 minutes spent on her going from normal to... whatever that was (I love how the Memory Alpha wiki entry for her says "For whatever reason, Kes became telekinetic"). Similarly, the last scene with Seven should have been two or three episodes away. And we really needed the Doctor's reaction to Kes's departure there. Buuuuut, despite all that, everything there was still really good. And I'm glad they've had their journey shortened by ten years. I was afraid the whole story would be seven years then a quick wormhole and they're home, so a nice push like that was definitely appreciated.

Day of Honor. Lots happening there. Nice Seven growth, finally some proper traction with the Paris and Torres plot, some aliens acting out of desperation. Felt a lot longer than a normal 45 minutes. Good stuff.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: MojoJojo on August 19, 2021, 01:12:44 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on August 18, 2021, 11:16:11 AM
I can understand Mulgrew being frosty about that, though maybe being unpleasant to Ryan, who was simply an actor who had bagged herself a gig, wasn't really on.

Mulgrew has acknowledged Ryan shouldn't have got the blame. I do wonder how bad she actually was to Ryan, and how much her being pissed off with the character has been described as against Ryan to make a better story. The story about her wanting Ryan to not go to the toilet could be anger at the producers choosing a costume that made toilet breaks take half an hour rather than trying to torture Ryan.

Guess I'm suspicious because there's not a hint of it in the show (airc) and they shared a lot of scenes together. It seems unlikely they would have been put together so much if she was that horrible.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 19, 2021, 04:09:38 PM
They had brilliant chemistry, which made it all the more surprising when these stories began to emerge. I know Janeway and Seven were very popular "shipping" characters among the section of the fanbase which enjoys such things.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 19, 2021, 10:33:43 PM
Nemesis. Ughhhh I was so ready to lay into that for being utterly tedious, and then the last five minutes redeemed it somewhat. Still, 40 boring minutes is still 40 boring minutes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 22, 2021, 10:52:36 PM
Revulsion. The main story was great, something Star Trek hadn't really done by this point and very well handled. The Harry and Seven plot was a nice humorous b-plot, and, as ever, the Doctor was a joy to watch. Really fun episode.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on August 23, 2021, 05:19:06 PM
If I'm remembering right, the Harry/Seven plot annoyed me because of Chakotay. Harry comes to Chakotay and says he's not comfortable, and Chakotay - who is essentially a middle manager - fails to do his one job properly.

Main plot is great fun though. There seems to be an unusual amount of episodes that essentially boil down to "B'Elanna is trapped aboard a ship with some kind of imminent danger that will kill her in minutes", and they're all great.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 23, 2021, 06:19:14 PM
Just watched this one. Liked the "this could get tedious" line from the Doctor as he and the other hologram's punches pass through one another.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 23, 2021, 06:28:09 PM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on August 23, 2021, 06:19:14 PM
Just watched this one. Liked the "this could get tedious" line from the Doctor as he and the other hologram's punches pass through one another.

Haha, yeah, that moment's a gem.

A great episode all round really. I wish Spectrum could have made an appearance after the episode - just briefly shown to have been transferred to Voyager's Sickbay as a pet for the Doc.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on August 23, 2021, 08:58:42 PM
Quote from: Lemming on August 23, 2021, 05:19:06 PM
If I'm remembering right, the Harry/Seven plot annoyed me because of Chakotay. Harry comes to Chakotay and says he's not comfortable, and Chakotay - who is essentially a middle manager - fails to do his one job properly.

Main plot is great fun though. There seems to be an unusual amount of episodes that essentially boil down to "B'Elanna is trapped aboard a ship with some kind of imminent danger that will kill her in minutes", and they're all great.

If it's the episode I think it it, I'm away ahead on Equinox Pt2, Chakotay sees the humour in it and pretty much challenges Harry to man up.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on August 23, 2021, 09:51:24 PM
That Harry/Seven 'Do you wish to copulate' moment has given Garret Wang an entire career at conventions.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 23, 2021, 10:58:55 PM
The Raven. It's a bit like the writers have gone "ah shit we've not done that much character work in Voyager so far, let's really develop the new character!" Great episode, but I feel like I know more about Seven than I do Kim or Torres, and she's only been in a handful of episodes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on August 23, 2021, 11:09:32 PM
Yeah, from here onwards it's pretty much a show about Seven and the EMH, and sometimes Janeway. There are a few good episodes for Torres and Paris scattered around too.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 24, 2021, 12:06:59 PM
Quote from: purlieu on August 23, 2021, 10:58:55 PM
The Raven. It's a bit like the writers have gone "ah shit we've not done that much character work in Voyager so far, let's really develop the new character!" Great episode, but I feel like I know more about Seven than I do Kim or Torres, and she's only been in a handful of episodes.

So true. When the do a similar thing on, say, Tores with Day of Honor or Barge of the Damned it's a bit of a yawn.

Do the Hansens fuck up the Borg/Federation chronology? I can't remember. Do they make it clear if their research take place after the events of Q Who?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on August 24, 2021, 12:32:47 PM
Quote from: Mobbd on August 24, 2021, 12:06:59 PM
Do the Hansens fuck up the Borg/Federation chronology? I can't remember. Do they make it clear if their research take place after the events of Q Who?

The Hansens were looking for the Borg at least 10 years before Q Who. (Although it's not stated that's what they were doing until season 5's "Dark Frontier")

The extent to which it was the first fuck up of the Borg/Federation chronology is debatable to a degree. It's definitely the first time there's explicitly said any knowledge of the Borg in the Federation prior to Q Who. But:

1) First Contact was released before this episode and that saw Lily Sloane exposed to the Borg 100s of years before they were encountered in Q Who. You can handwave it by saying she STFUd about them & her experience on the Enterprise either out of responsibility for not fucking up the timeline or because she didn't think anyone would believe her.

2) Likewise the El Aurian refugees rescued by the Enterprise B in Generations were meant to be running from the Borg. Even though this is not stated in the movie, Guinan said in TNG that the El Aurians were scattered by the Borg long before the Enterprise D encountered them. That's a long time for the El Aurians to have not told the Federation what they were running from. Maybe some of them were more talkative about the Borg than Guinan was, who didn't think to mention the existence of such a threat until the Enterprise encountered a cube.

But if the Hansens were operating on "rumours" and stuff the El Aurians related, it is a bit much that Magnus Hansen has an accurate model of a Borg Cube on his desk in the 2350s.

Then of course, Enterprise goes and really fucks it up by having Archer fight some leftover frozen Borg from First Contact, but in the real world that fantastic idea for an episode was done after Voyager and the Hansens. This episode also mentions that Cochrane told people about the Borg but was ignored because he was an alco.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on August 24, 2021, 12:34:51 PM
It's before I think, but they're out there investigating reports of a strange alien race not knowing it's the Borg. Maybe there were aware of the (unexplained) events of ENT "Unity" (though it'd have to be retconning if there were, since that episode was made years later).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 24, 2021, 12:42:04 PM
I think I'm okay with all of this. I don't mind that there might have been some unofficial encounters prior to the Enterprise D's official first contact with that cube. The Hansens were kinda freelance, right? That's fine. The information didn't get back to HQ.

I feel the same about the time travel element. The Borg have time travel so things are bound to get messy. I can't remember how they handle it in ENT but I bet it's respectful of the timeline: I remember they did well enough to satisfy me re: the Ferengi.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on August 24, 2021, 12:47:50 PM
Well up to the production of the Ent episode it's reasonable to assume they'd at least know something from the El Aurians. How specific the something is can be speculated about.

Quote from: Mobbd on August 24, 2021, 12:42:04 PM
I feel the same about the time travel element. The Borg have time travel so things are bound to get messy. I can't remember how they handle it in ENT but I bet it's respectful of the timeline: I remember they did well enough to satisfy me re: the Ferengi.

It's not, even by Star Trek's fairly loose standards re: The Timeline. The Borg assimilate a load of Federation scientists, nearly assimilate Phlox and it only doesn't work cos his physiology is resilient enough that he can irradiate himself (or something) to kill the nanoprobes. Oh and they discover that the Borg directed a subspace message towards the Delta Quadrant at the end of the ep. You couldn't not know what the Borg are after that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Endicott on August 24, 2021, 01:08:27 PM
I have a vague memory that the star trek usenet group I was on at time of broadcast of ENT started talking about alternate timelines introduced by ENT meeting the borg, in order to handwave away all the bs that it introduced. To be honest I had already stopped watching it by then.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 24, 2021, 02:07:13 PM
Think back to the S3 episode with the Borg cooperative outcasts that Chakotay meets. The woman he runs into there says she got assimilated at the Battle of Wolf 359 (i.e. the battle with Picard as Locutus in TNG). But that cube got blown up in the episode, so how did she get back to the Delta Quadrant?

I think the Borg just keep messing with the timeline or something.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 24, 2021, 06:05:31 PM
Hah! Oh well.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on August 24, 2021, 08:59:23 PM
Yeah, but Picard asks the Queen how they met when that same cube got destroyed, and she waves it away with some lime about humans thinking so three-dimensionally. Which could allude to some temporal shenanigans, or just be a hasty attempt to not get bogged down in an intractable problem. [nb]It's notable that around this time "Trials and Tribbleations," with its "We do not discuss it with outsiders" hand-wave of the Klingon Forehead Problem, happened; however Picard & the Borg Queen don't get their two-part episode to properly explain it! Maybe an animated Short Trek..?[/nb]
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 24, 2021, 11:35:30 PM
Scientific Method. A slightly misleading "oh they're contracted a virus" opening that led into a very nicely creepy story. Very good. Imagine what would have happened had Seven not been on board.

Year of Hell. Fuck yeah. Superb stuff. Ok, so the reset button was signposted from the word go, but everything there was fantastic. Never seen everything go to shit quite so much on Star Trek, and Annorax was an enjoyably complex villain with a name like several coats. Kate Mulgrew was utterly brilliant throughout.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on August 24, 2021, 11:39:09 PM
"TIME'S UP"

Two great consecutive episodes where Janeway kamikazes something.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on August 25, 2021, 12:13:43 AM
Quote from: purlieu on August 24, 2021, 11:35:30 PM
Scientific Method. A slightly misleading "oh they're contracted a virus" opening that led into a very nicely creepy story. Very good. Imagine what would have happened had Seven not been on board.

Contains possibly my favourite Seven quote:

Seven: Load of technobabble to save the ship
The Doctor: I assume you know how to do that?
Seven: You assume correctly
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 25, 2021, 02:03:33 AM
Yonk of Hell was great. I like that they actually ran with that detail from Before and After (though why didn't they use the temporal weapon cheat code Kes got for them, eh?).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 25, 2021, 09:22:50 AM
Ah, but it was a different timeline - where Kes was still on the ship - so things were different.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on August 25, 2021, 12:29:47 PM
I think the Year of Hell was supposed to be a full series arc but I due to it being syndicated that was abandoned.

I've just started S6 and there has been loads of things in the past few episodes that make no sense whatsoever. I'll wait and see if Purlieu picks up on any of it when he gets there.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 25, 2021, 03:46:07 PM
Quote from: purlieu on August 25, 2021, 09:22:50 AM
Ah, but it was a different timeline - where Kes was still on the ship - so things were different.

Aha!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on August 25, 2021, 06:42:19 PM
Quote from: Malcy on August 25, 2021, 12:29:47 PM
I think the Year of Hell was supposed to be a full series arc but I due to it being syndicated that was abandoned.

I've just started S6 and there has been loads of things in the past few episodes that make no sense whatsoever. I'll wait and see if Purlieu picks up on any of it when he gets there.

Tbf whilst it would've been interesting to put away Voyager's patented reset button for while, it would've been hard for the writers to do a whole season of Year of Hell. Once the ship has taken a certain level of damage, you couldn't have them do anything that's not part of the main Year of Hell plot. Go explore a pulsar and find a dark-matter space lifeform in it or something? Nah, can't really be doing that with a ship that's in bits, in hostile territory and a crew who's nerves are frayed to fuck. Would've gotten miserable after a while, I think.

DS9 were able to have some episodes in S6 & S7 that weren't War related as a break, cos after the initial 6 episode arc they weren't on the front line all the time.

Maybe they could've made a season out of it by having Annorax fuck with the timeline many more times before Voyager becomes protected from the changes. So after a few episodes we reach the point where Voyager is basically derelict, and then Annorax goes and fucks something up and as a side effect restores Voyager to full working order and we have a couple of fluffy episodes before the Krenim start ruining their shit again. But there are so many mistakes you can have Annorax make before it becomes implausible that his crew haven't mutinied already.

Also I know he's basically a megalomaniac by the time Voyager encounter him, but given how smart he is, you think it might've occurred to him somewhere in the 200 odd years that erasing the temporal weapon itself might be an option to undo everything he's done.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on August 25, 2021, 10:52:58 PM
It would also be pretty annoying to erase the events of an entire year's worth of episodes, Dallas style. Maybe they could have pulled it off - it's not as though rich character development was a hallmark of the show. But I think it would have irritated audiences.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on August 25, 2021, 11:08:00 PM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on August 25, 2021, 10:52:58 PM
It would also be pretty annoying to erase the events of an entire year's worth of episodes, Dallas style. Maybe they could have pulled it off - it's not as though rich character development was a hallmark of the show. But I think it would have irritated audiences.

I suppose they could have used the temporal shielding to stay unaffected by a reset.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 26, 2021, 11:08:45 AM
Yeah, although the reset button was pretty much obvious from the start of the story, even then it still slightly felt like a cop out, so to do it after the year would have been horrible.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on August 26, 2021, 11:19:52 AM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on August 25, 2021, 10:52:58 PM
It would also be pretty annoying to erase the events of an entire year's worth of episodes, Dallas style. Maybe they could have pulled it off - it's not as though rich character development was a hallmark of the show. But I think it would have irritated audiences.

Agreed. And resetting after a whole real-time year would have been really annoying, especially in a show whose invisible extra character is momentum.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on August 26, 2021, 08:36:17 PM
I think if syndication wasn't a factor and the ship was immune to any reset then character development may have stayed.

Om another note this week's Lower Decks has a character refer to it as VOY. Similar to the TOS era but without it being an acronym (Those Old Scientists). The Trekcore review stated that

QuoteStar Trek: Lower Decks appears to take a definitive stand on the age-old debate about whether Star Trek: Voyager's acronym is VOY or VGR: VOY is now canon!

Age-old debate? I have NEVER seen Voyager referenced as VGR!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: petril on August 26, 2021, 08:45:03 PM
VGR?

V O Y A G E R.... Voyager 6?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on August 26, 2021, 10:03:00 PM
Wait - we made V'GER? GOD DAMN US! GOD DAMN US ALL TO HELL!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on August 30, 2021, 11:03:24 PM
I've only ever seen it written as VOY.

Random Thoughts. Another one of those that feels really generic in the first half but becomes more interesting with some slightly-too-late plot developments. Possibly a touch less thought-provoking in an era where drug decriminalisation is an actual thing, but decent.

Concerning Flight. For all the futuristic elements in Star Trek, there's one thing that always makes me fail to suspend my disbelief: the idea that historical characters can be brought back as holograms. We don't know even remotely enough about Da Vinci as a person to make anything resembling a realistic model of his personality, and yet we're encouraged to believe that this is still 'him'. The idea has always bugged me.
Anyway, that was a very pleasant bit of fluff. Best scene was, typically, the brief interjection of Seven and the Doctor.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on August 30, 2021, 11:23:56 PM
Quote from: purlieu on August 30, 2021, 11:03:24 PM
Random Thoughts. Another one of those that feels really generic in the first half but becomes more interesting with some slightly-too-late plot developments. Possibly a touch less thought-provoking in an era where drug decriminalisation is an actual thing, but decent.

The crew seemed a bit passive about the aliens using their mind thingy on Torres in this one. Those guys have never encountered a Human or a Klingon before, much less a Human/Klingon hybrid. Wanna be awfully sure they aren't going to turn her into a vegetable.

Also when Tuvok breaks the guy's brain with all the violent thoughts he normally suppresses, there are brief shots from Event Horizon thrown in.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 05, 2021, 06:10:11 PM
Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on August 30, 2021, 11:23:56 PM
Also when Tuvok breaks the guy's brain with all the violent thoughts he normally suppresses, there are brief shots from Event Horizon thrown in.
That would explain why those bits were so disturbing!

Mortal Coil. Honestly, I can't even fathom why Neelix is so hated. I really like him. Thought that episode was brilliant and moving. Also bonus points for "You will be assimilated" "Sorry, no time for that now, maybe later" and the fact that not even the Borg could be arsed assimilating the Crap Klingons.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on September 05, 2021, 06:19:29 PM
The original idea involved Wildman rather than Neelix, and was horrifying:
QuoteWe were going to do this Pet Sematary episode where Ensign Wildman goes on a shuttle mission and dies, and Seven of Nine brings her back to life using Borg technology, except that now she's 'zombie mom.' She's not all there. Wildman's more connected with death than life, and her only link to life is through her daughter. She wants to kill her daughter, though, to bring her back to 'life' so she can share that experience with her. Really a creepy, morbid story! I thought, 'This is going to be so much fun to write. There has been nothing on Star Trek remotely like that, ever.' So we broke the story, and everybody was pretty happy about it.

Mortal Coil is a great episode, but if you watch it with someone, they're guaranteed to let out a mood-breaking cheer when Neelix steps onto the transporter pad to kill himself. As for why he's so hated, I dunno if I'd say I hate him but his treatment of Kes early on always seemed well dodgy to me. Jealously possessive towards a two-year-old, even if she is basically in her 20s due to sci-fi magic. It's worse because Kes is generally so calm and unflappable, so he's just ranting at someone who rarely responds. The highlight of Elite Force is phasering him to death and then blissfully sitting back and accepting the consequences as the security teams beam in to give you a game over.

Then again, while rewatching TNG I'm finding that I actually think Wesley is alright after all, so I get where you're coming from.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on September 05, 2021, 06:27:22 PM
Quote from: Lemming on September 05, 2021, 06:19:29 PM
The original idea involved Wildman rather than Neelix, and was horrifying:
Mortal Coil is a great episode, but if you watch it with someone, they're guaranteed to let out a mood-breaking cheer when Neelix steps onto the transporter pad to kill himself. As for why he's so hated, I dunno if I'd say I hate him but his treatment of Kes early on always seemed well dodgy to me. Jealously possessive towards a two-year-old, even if she is basically in her 20s due to sci-fi magic. It's worse because Kes is generally so calm and unflappable, so he's just ranting at someone who rarely responds. The highlight of Elite Force is phasering him to death and then blissfully sitting back and accepting the consequences as the security teams beam in to give you a game over.

Then again, while rewatching TNG I'm finding that I actually think Wesley is alright after all, so I get where you're coming from.

People make way too much of Kes being "two" and dating Neelix these days. It's not creepy or paedo. She's an alien. She ages differently. At "two," she doesn't look or talk or act like an Earth child. When she's "nine," she's literally geriatric.

I like Neelix. He's a new kind of alien: I don't think we ever saw a tree critter-like alien before him. His jealousy stuff was a bit gross (though he was actually right about Tom trying to muscle in) but he gets over it. He learns! He grows! Unlike almost any other Star Trek: Voyager character.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 05, 2021, 07:22:56 PM
Yeah, I don't get the thing about Kes being two either, she only lives to about nine so if we're judging by our standards then every single Ocampa relationship is distasteful. It's totally within Star Trek's ideals that it's never even considered weird, because by Ocampa standards she's an adult, with the awareness and attitudes that go with adulthood. And yeah, Neelix was a bit overbearing at first, but as Mobbd says, he grew and developed. It was certainly no worse than Bashir letching on every woman who set foot on DS9, or basically pestering - bordering on stalking - Dax for the first couple of seasons.

I do really like him, though. He's friendly, optimistic, enthusiastic, caring, generous, openly emotional, and yet also highly skilled and intelligent. He has a general lack of cynicism that is endearing because his self-awareness and scientific and cultural knowhow means he's never mawkishly naive. And yet he seems to be hated as much as, if not more than, Wesley Crusher. I wonder if some of it is a certain attitude that means people are naturally suspicious of anyone who lacks a certain level of cynicism.

That Wildman idea sounds really cool, would have loved to have seen that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on September 06, 2021, 11:17:24 AM
Same page, my friend. Also Ethan Phillips is just a great character actor. He brings a lot. (Was delighted to see him in Better Call Saul!)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on September 06, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
I liked the story (maybe I read it on here actually) that Phillips was rushing across the Paramount lot in full Neelix makeup when he bumped into Robin Williams, who of course launched into a comedy bit about chefs in outer space before telling him he loved the show and the character. I think Neelix gets a lot of shit from fans, so it must have been nice to get that apparently earnest endorsement from someone like Williams.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on September 06, 2021, 03:49:25 PM
Quote from: Mr Trumpet on September 06, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
I liked the story (maybe I read it on here actually) that Phillips was rushing across the Paramount lot in full Neelix makeup when he bumped into Robin Williams, who of course launched into a comedy bit about chefs in outer space before telling him he loved the show and the character. I think Neelix gets a lot of shit from fans, so it must have been nice to get that apparently earnest endorsement from someone like Williams.

Yeah I posted it a while back. I don't know how vocal people were about their dislike for Neelix when it was airing but Phillips seemed really humbled by that encounter. A lovely memory to have as well.

QuoteIt was about the third season. They finished my makeup around 7. I was going over to Stage 16 where we shot the cave scenes. I walked down the long alley between the stages. As I turned the corner I could see way up the other end of the alley another person walking towards me. It was just sunrise. We got closer and closer. We're about 10 feet from each other, and I realize it's Robin Williams, who was on the lot doing The Birdcage. He sees me and goes, 'Oh my God, Mr. Neelix!' Then he does this whole routine about what it's like to be a chef in outer space. 'The eggs are floating, the pancakes are getting too big!', a Robin Williams schtick. I had a private performance for like a minute and it was really funny. Then he came up, gave me a big hug, and said, 'I love your character, sir.' Such a sweet, sweet man. I'll never forget that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 07, 2021, 10:53:51 PM
Yeah, that must have been a really wonderful moment for him.

Message in a Bottle. Well that was bloody great. Think that's the first Voyager episode that's gone for the out-and-out comedy format, really funny and with a really lovely final scene. Also enjoyed the little DS9 nods like the uniform and the brief mention of the Dominion war (what a long time ago that seems to me now!)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on September 08, 2021, 12:14:14 AM
Quite likely my favourite Voyager episode. It's a shame they felt the need to have any scenes set back on actual Voyager; the Hirogen network thing is a nice bit of foreshadowing, but the comedy scenes with Paris and Kim trying to create a new EMH because how hard can it be are utterly pointless. Knowing how institutionalised and set in their ways the production staff were by this point[nb]OK, I'm being unfair here. Why, they innovated all the time, like letting the Captain Proton holodeck scenes be filmed in black & white - a mere ten years after they had a fit of the vapours at the very idea of doing it for "The Big Goodbye." Black and white - on a COLOUR TV show?! Inconceivable![/nb], I suspect they insisted on a certain amount of the ep featuring other cast members no matter what they were actually doing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on September 08, 2021, 08:14:20 AM
It's a favourite for me too, that one. Might be the first Voyager episode to be well and truly 5-star. Funny, intelligent, and just so much fun to visit the A-Quad for a while. Just great. "Romulans?!"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mr Trumpet on September 08, 2021, 01:06:05 PM
I love anything with Romulans, but it's hard to overlook what a massive scumbag Andy Dick is
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 09, 2021, 11:28:43 PM
Christ, just read his wikipedia page, what a... well, a dick.

Waking Moments. Ah, a b-movie version of Inception. A pleasingly pulpy story that kept threatening to go naff but managed to repeatedly redeem itself. Featured an exceptional use of "resistance is futile".
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on September 10, 2021, 07:51:56 AM
Quote from: purlieu on September 09, 2021, 11:28:43 PMFeatured an exceptional use of "resistance is futile".

I'm irrationally triggered by how Ryan pronounces Futile. She's the only borg who does it the American way.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on September 10, 2021, 10:02:03 AM
Resistance is feudal. Well, they do have a Queen. Perhaps we need to see some Borg Barons. We notionally saw Borg Freemen after all, Hugh and his posse...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 10, 2021, 12:49:02 PM
Yes, it did bother me a bit too. I suppose it could be her human side returning.

Speaking of Seven, we now have seven Trek threads on the front page of Picture Box.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on September 10, 2021, 01:09:28 PM
Quote from: purlieu on September 10, 2021, 12:49:02 PM
Speaking of Seven, we now have seven Trek threads on the front page of Picture Box.

Wehey!

But seriously, we should be ashamed of ourselves.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 10, 2021, 01:27:27 PM
I was going to suggest a Star Trek, Doctor Who & Superheroes subforum, but that would kill off about 2/3 of the traffic to Picture Box.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 11, 2021, 11:45:04 PM
Hunters. A really lovely character-centric episode that manages to totally avoid the episodic format of the show by referencing the communications network from the previous episode, and building on various individual character elements. Generally really nice to see the crew having moments to just be themselves and consider their own relationships onboard ship and to those in the Alpha Quadrant; Janeway's was obviously very sad, and it was nice to see Tuvok's underlying emotions be allowed to break through, even subtly. The Hirogen feel different to typical Star Trek aliens, which makes their (inevitable) return in the future at least somewhat appealing, in the way the Crap Klingons never were. Yes, very good.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on September 12, 2021, 04:43:54 PM
Quote from: purlieu on September 10, 2021, 01:27:27 PM
I was going to suggest a Star Trek, Doctor Who & Superheroes subforum, but that would kill off about 2/3 of the traffic to Picture Box.

The Nerd Crew
Lower Dorks
The Penalty Box - where tears are permitted
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 12, 2021, 10:04:38 PM
Prey. The Hirogen are back - again! Can't say I'd want to see them every episode but they're an enjoyably different villain. Some really good drama there, Seven is proving to be excellent, even this early on in her run. Shame Species 8472 are such badly rendered generic CG aliens.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on September 12, 2021, 11:52:15 PM
This is "one for the pisses me off" file.

Janeway punishes Seven for beaming the member of Species 8472 onto the Hirogen vessel, mere moments before either Janeway would've had to surrender it anyway or the Hirogen destroy Voyager. Obviously it's barbaric and horrible for the Hirogen to use it as prey, and cut it up for trophies when they eventually kill it, and we should try and protect innocent species from that etc. etc., but Voyager has basically zero chance against the Hirogen here. They can't protect Species 8472 from the Hirogen in this situation, and they can't even escape because the Hirogen knocked out their warp drive. So the entire crew would've likely been killed had they stuck to Janeway's principle on it.

I really wish Seven had pointed that out to Janeway. "Yeah captain, we were dead if I hadn't done that. But by all means, restrict my privileges as punishment."

Seven can be criticised for not helping the crew open a rift to fluidic space before the Hirogen vessels arrived. But even if they had been able to send Species 8472 back to fluidic space before the Hirogen arrived, there's quite a significant chance the Hirogen wouldn't have been too happy with Voyager helping their prey escape and may have wanted replacement prey (ie. Voyager)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 13, 2021, 12:03:41 AM
Yeah, I enjoyed the Seven vs. Starfleet thing because Seven was clearly in the right, maybe not at first but ultimately she ended up making the right call and I think it was at least partially obvious to viewers. Some of the best bits of Voyager so far have tread a similar line to DS9 in terms of the general Starfleet attitude being somewhat naive as soon as it comes to things outside the standard Alpha Quadrant familiarity.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on September 13, 2021, 05:30:47 PM
EDIT: My brain no work good today.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 13, 2021, 10:59:39 PM
Retrospect. Ehhhh, I get what they were going for here, but it didn't sit particularly comfortably with me. It's clearly intended as a critique on certain aspects of psychology, the unreliability of memory, and impartiality of friendship, but ends up feeling more than a little bit like a victim-blaming story. We get no resolution for Seven at all, despite her feeling remorse for something that wasn't really her fault. What exactly was she remembering? I was hoping for a final climactic scene where there was some explanation, but it just ended without any real justification for the story it told.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on September 13, 2021, 11:25:04 PM
That's a classic, for all the wrong reasons. "On my world, an accusation alone can ruin you forever!" RIP Falsely-Accused-Man, died in a spectacular display of fireworks, his falsely-accused giblets scattered across Voyager's hull. We shall never forget you or your innoence.

Yeah, as I remember it, the message is hard to read as anything other than "Seven should have just shut up and not brought the case forward". I've seen people say it's more intended as an allegory to things like the fallibility of witness testimony and the 90s satanic panic, but it seems to me to be very clearly about sexual assault.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: PlanktonSideburns on September 14, 2021, 06:02:37 AM
Yea fuck that episode, what the fuck
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on September 14, 2021, 10:50:24 AM
I wrote this on page one of this thread.

Quote from: Deanjam on October 05, 2020, 07:57:08 PM

The worst episode is Retrospect, where Seven is convinced some bloke has taken some of her borg implants without consent. It's a horrible sexual abuse metaphor made worse by the ending (and I'm gonna spoil it because it's awful) where it turns out Seven was wrong and had falsely accused the guy who is now very dead. So don't believe women accusers, they're probably making it up. Definitely hasn't aged well.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on September 14, 2021, 10:53:41 AM
Quote from: Lemming on September 13, 2021, 11:25:04 PM

Yeah, as I remember it, the message is hard to read as anything other than "Seven should have just shut up and not brought the case forward". I've seen people say it's more intended as an allegory to things like the fallibility of witness testimony and the 90s satanic panic, but it seems to me to be very clearly about sexual assault.

I saw a defense of it from Brian Fuller where he claimed they'd deliberately made no reference to rape or sexual assault, but I don't know what he thinks the audience makes of a woman repeatedly saying 'HE VIOLATED ME!"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on September 24, 2021, 02:16:43 PM
Started a proper full-on rewatch of Voyager a couple of weeks ago, as the friend I recently watched Enterprise with was ready to start another series.

Amazed how good the first two seasons are, actually. I'd remembered them being a bit shaky, but for the most part Voyager hit the ground running. I even loved the Beowulf episode, when anything to do with the holodeck normally sends me to sleep. Getting a lot of enjoyment out of episodes that I'd remembered being pretty middling - that one where Harry meets the people who euthanise themselves to travel to the "afterlife", for example, was one I'd remembered as being run-of-the-mill, but it's actually really interesting and well-plotted.

Regrettably, have to stand by the Neelix hate. I'm giving him a chance but holy fuck his whole personality is basically just tormenting Kes, the only thing to soften the blow being that Kes has godlike calmness which prevents her from really being upset by any of it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on September 28, 2021, 06:50:08 PM
The Killing Game. Um, ok. Didn't see that one coming. Not convinced there was enough there to justify a two-parter, but it would have been slightly too squeezed into a single 45 minutes. Another of those slightly daft b-movie ideas that Voyager seems to enjoy doing a lot. The Hirogen seemed quite interesting in the past, and at the start of this, but there was a bit too much generic alien baddy marching around being evil going on by the end. Also, even with the expansions, the whole holodeck thing is really beginning to push my suspension of belief at this point, even if the image of them looking down into it from a corridor was pretty cool. Voyager took a fucking battering again, that ship's really going to limp into the Alpha Quadrant at this rate. And another red shirt died, off screen, which by my calculation makes the number of crew about 12 by this point.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on November 01, 2021, 07:12:09 PM
Vis A Vis. Been off for a couple of months and I return to a dull, seen-it-a-thousand-times-before bit of pap like that. Why do bodysnatchers never have the faintest idea how to act like the person they're meant to be? Oh I know, I'll pretend to be an important bridge officer whose duties I don't understand, on a ship I don't know my way around full of people I know nothing about. What could go wrong there?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on November 01, 2021, 07:54:53 PM
Yay, more Voyager (even if we're returning to a shit episode)!

Missed that you'd done The Killing Game, probably would have been better as a one-part episode but I thought the concept was suitably bizarre to make it worthwhile.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on November 17, 2021, 09:16:16 PM
The Omega Directive. Lots of great stuff there, a threat both enormous and microscopic, ruined slightly by the idea of the Borg having some sort of quasi-religious fascination with a particle.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Johnny Foreigner on November 17, 2021, 09:33:41 PM
Is that the one where 7 of 9 meets God? Rather silly.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on November 18, 2021, 10:40:39 AM
Quote from: purlieu on November 17, 2021, 09:16:16 PMThe Omega Directive. Lots of great stuff there, a threat both enormous and microscopic, ruined slightly by the idea of the Borg having some sort of quasi-religious fascination with a particle.

Excellent episode imho. In the upper half anyway.

I like the addition to canon that there might be something even more important than the Prime Directive. The Omega Directive! Nobody ever talks about it. (Though to be fair, nobody ever mentions it in-universe again either. Kinda wish they did.).

EDIT: seems omega molecules were mentioned briefly in the episode "Q2." Barely anything but at least it confirms that it's real beyond one episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on November 18, 2021, 10:52:43 AM
Quote from: Mobbd on November 18, 2021, 10:40:39 AMExcellent episode imho. In the upper half anyway.

I like the addition to canon that there might be something even more important than the Prime Directive. The Omega Directive! Nobody ever talks about it. (Though to be fair, nobody ever mentions it in-universe again either. Kinda wish they did.).

EDIT: seems omega molecules were mentioned briefly in the episode "Q2." Barely anything but at least it confirms that it's real beyond one episode.

Only other place I saw it mentioned was the Armada PC game. It's the basis of the plot of the game.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Mobbd on November 18, 2021, 11:08:58 AM
Quote from: Malcy on November 18, 2021, 10:52:43 AMOnly other place I saw it mentioned was the Armada PC game. It's the basis of the plot of the game.

That's cool.

I wondered on a hunch if the idea came first for gameplay but that they snuck it into Voyager to legitimise the concept before the game's release? Probably not: they're a couple of years apart (episode was '98, game was '01).

The game looks fun, actually. Some good deep cuts in there by the looks of it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Malcy on November 18, 2021, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Mobbd on November 18, 2021, 11:08:58 AMThat's cool.

I wondered on a hunch if the idea came first for gameplay but that they snuck it into Voyager to legitimise the concept before the game's release? Probably not: they're a couple of years apart (episode was '98, game was '01).

The game looks fun, actually. Some good deep cuts in there by the looks of it.

I still regularly play Armada 2. Have done since it came out. All the old Star Trek games are being re-released on GOG. Would be great to play Armada 1 again. Haven't been able to get that one or Bridge Commander to run for years.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on November 28, 2021, 05:22:22 PM
Unforgettable. Very nice to have an episode that doesn't remotely feel like a retread of past Trek stories, and one that didn't go down the predictable path of 'she turned out to be an alien with a cover story'; it wasn't all that gripping, however.

Living Witness. This, on the other hand, was brilliant. The main cast got the opportunity to play camp bad guy versions of themselves, the overall story was great, the double framing device a nice twist at the end. It could probably have done with an extra few minutes - the ending felt a bit rushed - but definitely a strong episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Deanjam on November 29, 2021, 06:05:46 PM
Living Witness is one of Voyagers best. Their version of the evil mirror universe, essentially. Unforgettable is the most ironically named episode of Star Trek ever. Total bore. Like most Chakotay episodes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on November 29, 2021, 07:24:26 PM
Demon. I thought the 'silver blood' lot had some potential to explore, but the balance of the episode was really odd and focused on the setup which was fairly dull, meaning the end was completely rushed. TNG could have got an episode out of deciding whether it was ethical to allow them to clone the crew, whereas here everyone is copied in the space of about 20 seconds.

Also like fuck would Star Fleet designate a planet "Demon class".
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on November 30, 2021, 07:35:48 PM
One. Ah, excellent stuff, Seven given a lot to work with there, and some nice development in character for the end. Interested to see how she progresses now that season five is just around the corner.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: Lemming on December 01, 2021, 06:29:16 AM
Love Living Witness and One, two of the best of the season.

I really like the premise of Unforgettable, but the finished product is indeed forgettable.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on December 01, 2021, 11:34:49 PM
Hope and Fear. Excellent Seven and Janeway stuff there, really enjoyed that. Nice to get at least one reference to a past story and some some progress on the journey home, too. Also enjoyed seeing some consequences from past decisions. It's such a shame that Voyager is so episodic because it's got the most obvious potential arc and an episode like that fits in really well. That said, ending a season without a cliffhanger, is that allowed on Star Trek after the first season? Tut tut.

Night. Janeway's given up on the Prime Directive completely by this point, then. Some good character stuff for her and a nice, if somewhat slight, scenario in the second half. A tad disappointed it wasn't purely based around the psychological horror of the void, though. That said, I still don't really understand how the void works, like you cross over the boundary and can suddenly see all the stars that are still light years away? Hmm.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: purlieu on December 03, 2021, 12:12:06 AM
Drone. Ah that was brilliant, great to see something new done with the Borg and some great development for Seven. Admittedly it was very bloody obvious what was going to happen and they shouldn't have let him grow in the first place. But yeah, marvellous.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Voyager
Post by: mothman on December 03, 2021, 12:29:52 AM
Having episodes called "One" and "Drone" in close proximity has always felt a bit daft to me. And with "Night" and "Demon" and also I think "Bliss" coming up soon (?), I often forget which is which, what happens in which, etc.