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Forums => Remain Indoors (DEAD SOON) => Topic started by: Fambo Number Mive on August 31, 2021, 04:29:08 PM

Title: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on August 31, 2021, 04:29:08 PM
I know schools in Scotland have already gone back, but schools in much of the rest of the UK will go back either this week or next week (it varies in England with some schools such as those in Leeds, Manchester and Newcastle going back on the 6th according to the Metro).

I know that schools in Scotland still require masks in the classroom but not sure about schools in the rest of the UK. It would make sense for pupils and teachers who are not medically exempt to be required to wear masks except when eating or drinking, but when has Williamson of England ever been sensible, for example.

These CO2 monitors I am reading about - so they will tell the teacher when there is not enough oxygen in the classroom so they will open windows? What about classrooms where ventillation is not adequate? What about on cold and/or rainy days, especially during December to February? These CO2 monitors seem like a sticking plaster and an excuse for the governments to say they are doing something.

I hope most parents will get their children to wear masks when they are at school (unless medically exempt) and we do not see any anti-mask protests outside schools like there were in the USA.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: finnquark on August 31, 2021, 04:51:11 PM
I know that schools in Scotland still require masks in the classroom but not sure about schools in the rest of the UK.

Answer is no. Up to individuals now. Most staff couldn't be arsed to today.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: jamiefairlie on August 31, 2021, 07:30:34 PM
I know schools in Scotland have already gone back, but schools in much of the rest of the UK will go back either this week or next week (it varies in England with some schools such as those in Leeds, Manchester and Newcastle going back on the 6th according to the Metro).

I know that schools in Scotland still require masks in the classroom but not sure about schools in the rest of the UK. It would make sense for pupils and teachers who are not medically exempt to be required to wear masks except when eating or drinking, but when has Williamson of England ever been sensible, for example.

These CO2 monitors I am reading about - so they will tell the teacher when there is not enough oxygen in the classroom so they will open windows? What about classrooms where ventillation is not adequate? What about on cold and/or rainy days, especially during December to February? These CO2 monitors seem like a sticking plaster and an excuse for the governments to say they are doing something.

I hope most parents will get their children to wear masks when they are at school (unless medically exempt) and we do not see any anti-mask protests outside schools like there were in the USA.

Perhaps they could invent a virus monitor? Who cares that there’s correct oxygen if it’s packed with viruses?
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Zetetic on August 31, 2021, 07:46:39 PM
The point is that - in the actual world - the CO2 monitors act as a rough proxy for the overall air replacement rate.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: mothman on August 31, 2021, 08:11:09 PM
As it stands my youngest is meant to be starting secondary school this week… but doesn’t have a place yet confirmed at any of the specialist establishments her autism requires (and associated EHCP mandates), thanks to the council dragging their feet and letting her case fall between the cracks for months at a time. Otherwise I imagine we’d be in a right state about now, like we were in early January when we were resolved to keep the kids out come hell or legal action. The announcement of the further lockdown was a real relief!
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 31, 2021, 08:14:14 PM
Ugh god not school, with teachers? GROSS!


MUM!!!
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: jamiefairlie on August 31, 2021, 10:05:02 PM
The point is that - in the actual world - the CO2 monitors act as a rough proxy for the overall air replacement rate.

All it takes is one sick little virus vomiter spewing the goods out and others will still get sick, in anything short of hurricane levels of air flow. They should be teaching remotely until kids vaccinations are approved, which should be before Xmas I hear.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Milo on September 01, 2021, 06:29:45 AM
Completely eliminating infections would require hurricane ventilation, yes. That's not the goal, it's just another way to reduce infections.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Zetetic on September 01, 2021, 07:39:04 AM
The plan to deploy ozone generators in Welsh classrooms (after hours) seems pointless at best.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Uncle TechTip on September 01, 2021, 12:01:35 PM
Well, it's a trial of new machines isn't it, so not pointless.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Zetetic on September 01, 2021, 12:27:44 PM
Right now, it seems pointless from the point of view of spaffing several more million at Swansea University on something that 1) has extremely dubious claimed mechanisms for its benefits, 2) has extremely well-established putative mechanisms for causing harm to people and stuff, and 3) could be rapidly tested on a far smaller scale at far lower cost.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Drygate on September 02, 2021, 09:11:06 AM
I can't believe they've had 18 months to prepare and they've not done anything to improve ventilation (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/ventilation.html) in classrooms effectively, apart from "open some windows".

Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: scarecrow on September 02, 2021, 05:24:25 PM
Agree, it really is an astonishing dereliction of duty.

I'm looking forward to all schools in the UK having to revert to remote learning next month as a consequence of this arrogant complacency.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Drygate on September 02, 2021, 06:56:49 PM
The kids shouldn't be punished for the incompetence of the government though.

Weren't people talking about repurposing more spacious buildings like church halls for class rooms back in day (early 2020)? I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why it's a bad idea but there must be a way to make in person learning safer than doing away with bubbles?
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: jamiefairlie on September 02, 2021, 07:15:48 PM
Remote learning is bad is the new remote working is bad. It isn’t and it works, the luddites just need to be forced into it.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on September 02, 2021, 07:26:05 PM
It does pose complications for guardians/parent/s of children under a certain age who can't work from home, and more needs to be done to ensure every child has a decent laptop, internet connection and webcam. However, given that no children are fully vaccinated, classrooms are easy way to spread COVID and the government has done barely anything to make schools safe, remote learning seems to be the least worst option.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on September 02, 2021, 07:29:05 PM
The kids shouldn't be punished for the incompetence of the government though.

Weren't people talking about repurposing more spacious buildings like church halls for class rooms back in day (early 2020)? I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why it's a bad idea but there must be a way to make in person learning safer than doing away with bubbles?

Remote learning isn't a punishment. Making children come to school in person no matter how bad cases were and how full hospitals were would be a punishment.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: jamiefairlie on September 02, 2021, 07:44:37 PM
Most sensible employers are now accepting that hybrid working is the way forward, where people choose the scenario that best suits them. Schools should do the same, kids who need a safe place to go  can then be accommodated with more space whilst their classmates are at home. It’s just laziness and intransigence that’s blocking it.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Milo on September 02, 2021, 08:49:43 PM
It's not really a valid comparison. We can assume all adult workers are basically identical in their ability to access remote work. Children aren't and I'd say that less than half of school children can be taught properly remotely. I mean, most of them are ten and under.

Edit to add: and also, the audio environment of any remote learning setup of more than about four people is an absolute nightmare.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: jamiefairlie on September 02, 2021, 09:06:35 PM
That’s why I said it should be hybrid. Having kids who have good home setups stay at home allows those that don’t to have a safer environment at school.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: jamiefairlie on September 02, 2021, 09:08:51 PM
Also, when I say remote teaching, I should say remote learning. Many kids can manage with little supervision, just set the assignments and review the results.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Zetetic on September 02, 2021, 09:42:43 PM
The lack of a forced social environment outside the family is likely a significant issue for many children at this point, for all the problems of school social environments.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: jobotic on September 02, 2021, 09:48:47 PM
Have I got this right?

My neighbour has tested positive (LFT) and my kids popped in there a couple of days ago although they didn;t go near her. Anyway, we did a test on my son and he's clear (although he wriggles about so much I'm not convinced it was done properly). I did a test an it was negative but for a few seconds the bottom line was faintly showing - it had gone shortly afterwards and has completely vanished, have been checking. I'll do another in the morning. Anyway I was ooking up the rules and is true or have I got it wrong?

If I was positive my partner wouldn't have to isolate because she's double jabbed and my kids wouldn't have to because they are children. They're kids so haven't been jabbed.

So when they had cases in their classes before the summer they had to isolate at home BUT if I had it I could happily send them into school to spread the fucker around? (I wouldn't, they'd stay at home, I'm not spreading it on Johnson's behalf).

That's insane.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: jamiefairlie on September 03, 2021, 12:20:22 AM
The lack of a forced social environment outside the family is likely a significant issue for many children at this point, for all the problems of school social environments.

Yeah, the Gripper's of the world must be bemoaning the loss of their income streams.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Milo on September 03, 2021, 06:50:01 AM
That’s why I said it should be hybrid. Having kids who have good home setups stay at home allows those that don’t to have a safer environment at school.

I don't know how this can be adequately verified, planned for or catered for. Just handing out assignments and reviewing the results is only practical for a small number of year groups.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Drygate on September 03, 2021, 08:17:58 AM
Yeah that sounds like a terrible idea.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Old Thrashbarg on September 03, 2021, 12:27:48 PM
Remote learning for primary school children just isn't feasible. They're at an age when they need direct supervision and guidance, which can't be provided adequately via a video call. And it becomes even more difficult to try to cater the teaching material to the differing levels of ability within the class. At best, it can be used to keep them focussed on a screen for a relatively short period, followed by assigning a simple, open-ended task to occupy them for another relatively short period.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: MojoJojo on September 03, 2021, 01:11:53 PM
So when they had cases in their classes before the summer they had to isolate at home BUT if I had it I could happily send them into school to spread the fucker around? (I wouldn't, they'd stay at home, I'm not spreading it on Johnson's behalf).

The rules have changed since before summer, so no more bubbles in schools and they won't get sent home if some ne in their class tests positive. If you're vaxxed or under 18 you only have to isolate if you have a positive test result.

To those thinking it's mental schools are opening up, from what I can see of the figures*, it seems under 50 children have died following a positive test in England in total. That's shit, obviously, but it has to be balanced against the extra 30 deaths from domestic abuse seen in 2020 and all the other less visible damage caused by closing schools. The reality is kids in school are going to get covid, and it's not really clear what closing schools would achieve.


(I've found it annoying to get a single dataset with a breakdown by age from ONS)

Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: scarecrow on September 03, 2021, 04:30:15 PM
The reality is kids in school are going to get covid, and it's not really clear what closing schools would achieve.
Well, it would prevent them all getting covid.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: MojoJojo on September 04, 2021, 12:48:23 AM
No, it wouldn't. That's the point I was making.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: jamiefairlie on September 04, 2021, 03:25:21 AM
No, it wouldn't. That's the point I was making.

why wouldn't it? Lockdown = less cases until kids get vaccinated, then gradual return.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Milo on September 04, 2021, 07:38:16 AM
The JCVI have just decided not to so it's a moot point anyway.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Drygate on September 04, 2021, 07:44:14 AM
Lock downs are never coming back. The evidence of collateral damage is mounting up and they're looking ever more unfeasible.

This is just one headline from today

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/04/lockdown-weight-gain-more-at-risk-type-2-diabetes-nhs-study

Kids are at such a low risk from covid and covid related outcomes, closing schools can't be justified. Doing so causes way more damage to kids.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: MojoJojo on September 04, 2021, 09:29:45 AM
why wouldn't it? Lockdown = less cases until kids get vaccinated, then gradual return.

Because vaccines mostly reduce severity in disease rather than the chances of catching it. Children today will catch covid multiple times over their lifetime. Closing schools will not change this.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: olliebean on September 04, 2021, 10:49:32 AM
Kids are at such a low risk from covid and covid related outcomes, closing schools can't be justified. Doing so causes way more damage to kids.

One in seven 11-17 year olds still have symptoms 3 months after testing positive: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/01/one-in-seven-children-with-covid-still-suffering-three-months-later-study

One in seven isn't what I'd call an especially low risk.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: MojoJojo on September 04, 2021, 10:59:31 AM
1 in 7 have very vague, poorly defined mild symptoms.

The actual figures are 30% of those who tested positive had "symptoms". Which sounds terrible until you discover that 17% of those who tested negative.

It's the normal long covid story. Conflate a high prevalence of mild, normal post viral symptoms with rare, unpleasant chronic conditions to make the story a bit scary, so it has some actual interest.
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: Drygate on September 04, 2021, 05:39:29 PM
Exactly.

This is a different take on that study
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58410584

This is the impact on obesity for kids in America:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2783690

I wonder if a similar thing happened here?
Title: Re: Back to school in much of England and Wales and Northern Ireland this week
Post by: finnquark on October 14, 2021, 03:04:11 PM
First PCR test of the year today, after a mild cough and sore throat have persisted. Surprised it's taken this long to be honest, what with 1 in 50 students bothering with masks, 1 in 10 staff members using them, and higher case numbers in college than ever before. Joke.