Cook'd and Bomb'd

Forums => Shelf Abuse => Topic started by: bgmnts on May 17, 2022, 12:03:04 PM

Title: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 17, 2022, 12:03:04 PM
As per reasonable request, a place to specifically discuss the merry mutants, as I am currently retrospectively reading them and there are some X fans here.

Quote from: bgmnts on May 16, 2022, 12:14:01 PMOkay so X-Men first 66!

#1: Very standard old school shite, all characters explaining exactly what they are doing and it's stupid (but there's a certain charm to it). Poor Jean Grey is victim to 60s misogyny, Magneto is a bit of a dumb moustache twirler and Xavier is genuinely a bit of a creepy, horrid, authoritarian bastard.

#2 Vanisher is silly but I like him and want him to return. One panel of interesting team dynamic and individual personalities after getting spanked by Vanisher: Iceman and Angle rowing, Beast guilty and stunned, Cyclops all business and Jean Grey pensive. X-Men go from nobodies to famous heroes and then laughing stocks in about 30 pages. Team already goes nuclear by wheeling out Professor X to mindful Vanisher into oblivion because the team isn't good enough. Yay?

Oh and interestingly, baldy doesn't need Cerebro to locate mutants, at least in the states.

Another thing, in the first issue Iceman's reaction to Jean Grey's arrival is indifference whilst the rest of the boys stare out the windows like the groovy incels they are, yet in the next issue he is racing out to escort her. I wonder if they toyed with the idea of making Bobby gay but didnt get the nod from whoever was running the company?

Quote from: bgmnts on May 16, 2022, 02:23:58 PM#3 A baffling issue. The team essentially kidnap The Blob from his home in the circus and force him to become an X Men or else. When he refuses Professor X instantly decided to mind rape him. There are no discussions or even hints towards the ethics of this. Blob escapes the clutches of these bastards and comes back with his circus troupe and these normal humans wreck the X Men, until Prof X saves them then mind rapes the whole circus and yay X Men win.

Christ knows what they were thinking in this one, the X Men look like absolute chumps. Almost villainous actually. One panel has Blob bald when in the previous and subsequent panels he has the same nerdy haircut. Bit of a mess really.

Oh yeah and Xavier is in love with Jean Grey, lovely stuff.

Quote from: bgmnts on May 16, 2022, 11:58:09 PMThat's fair. But then he is a teenager and yeah literally a few pages later he's horny for Jean as well.

Issue #5 sees Xavier broken after a hilariously stupid explosion to the face from the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (already established as regular villains) and out for the count. Toad (one of my favourite characters dont care) is used as a ploy by Magneto by posing as a track and field athlete about to be lynched by the crowd for being too good at hopping.

The ruse fails and it just descends into a big fight and rescue mission for the rest of the issue. They rescue Angel from Asteroid M and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are shown to not really into being evil mutants but owe Magneto a favour. The end of the issue shows OH MY GOD Xavier the bastard was just pretending to be fucked to see if they had the ability to pass the end of year exam. I guess they're no longer students now.


First letters page at the end, one hilariously applauds the transcendence beyond mere "good guys vs bad guys" and Lee's response is "Like we always say: In OUR mags, you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys without a scorecard".
This despite the fact that the card carrying group of stupidly bad moustache twirling villains are called the Brotherhood of EVIL Mutants. Shades of grey.

Another funny letter opens with "I really think you are the greatest ever! You may be conceited but..."


Quote from: bgmnts on May 17, 2022, 12:32:41 AMNext issue has Namor the Sub Mariner OMG! Apparently reeling from a knock back by Sue Storm in FF, he's having a bit of a sulk and Magneto wants them to join forces. Magneto can do like mental projection shit as well Xavier. We really are in a what the fuck lets try everything stage at the moment. Namor wants none of Magneto really and so everyone fights again. Magneto runs away again and Namor dives into the sea, cursing all air breathers forever na-more.

The letters are overwhelmingly in favour of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch becoming goodies or having their new book. You can tell the readers are much cleverer than presumably comics creators think as the only two characters who are somewhat greyish they love. I'm expecting a face turn from them within the next couple of issues.

Oh fuck, spoilers by the way!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: madhair60 on May 17, 2022, 12:41:35 PM
I read X-Men in later years, got the first 5 or 6 Essential X-Men volumes (if anyone is selling any of the later ones, please get in touch lol) in order to catch up. I loved the X-Men and enjoyed all their stories more or less, than an event called Secret Wars happened, all the creative teams got changed, and it came back really boring and shitty; repeating the same beats over and over. The exact panel I dropped X-Men was one of Callisto lamenting "The Morlocks are dying again!"; the sheer repetition just wore me out.

When I found out about House of X/Powers of X, I jumped back on, but around eight volumes (of 16+) into the new status quo, I'm finding myself a little exhausted. It is good though.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on May 17, 2022, 01:12:58 PM
I've just recieved the five volumes that cover Morrison into Whedon in the post which I've not read in years and years, part of my big library rebuild after having to sell everything in 2016. Looking forward to following this thread.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Povidone on May 17, 2022, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: madhair60 on May 17, 2022, 12:41:35 PMWhen I found out about House of X/Powers of X, I jumped back on, but around eight volumes (of 16+) into the new status quo, I'm finding myself a little exhausted. It is good though.

Been interested in checking out the recent reboot stuff with Krakoa and all that but it looks like it's already pretty convoluted with about 100 X-titles seemingly coming out at once. Would happily shell out for good collected versions as I really struggle with reading comics online.

That said I did a huge binge of the classic Claremont 80's run on comixology a few years back and it was quality, beasted a lot of the early New Mutants which is top quality stuff; harrowing storylines, dark horror and teen angst with some lovely artwork before it eventually gets 90s-ified with Cable and X-Force.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 17, 2022, 01:43:25 PM
I will admit, going through a reading that will take me through different eras and massive shakeups, it does fill me with some anxieties. I am excited to re-read the 70s and 80s Claremont and to get stuck into X Factor and New Mutants but as madhair demonstrated, I'm not looking forward to getting invested in characters only for the whole thing to shift dramatically and to have to get into a new status quo. But, that's comic books I suppose isn't it?
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: madhair60 on May 17, 2022, 02:07:05 PM
Quote from: Povidone on May 17, 2022, 01:29:24 PMBeen interested in checking out the recent reboot stuff with Krakoa and all that but it looks like it's already pretty convoluted with about 100 X-titles seemingly coming out at once. Would happily shell out for good collected versions as I really struggle with reading comics online.

They're doing these trades called Dawn of X and Reign of X (so far) which collect EVERYTHING and IN ORDER, which is refreshing.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Mister Six on May 17, 2022, 06:10:09 PM
Quote from: Magnum Valentino on May 17, 2022, 01:12:58 PMI've just recieved the five volumes that cover Morrison into Whedon in the post which I've not read in years and years, part of my big library rebuild after having to sell everything in 2016. Looking forward to following this thread.

I read the Morrison run in a massive omnibus earlier this year. I loved all the stuff with the school kids and the glimpses of how society is reacting to mutants (eg. mutant celebrities), but the plots with the actual X-Men left me cold - I just don't really care about Cyclops and Jean's marriage problems, or Beast pretending to be gay to piss off his ex-girlfriend or whatever. Really wish Morrison had been able to just focus on their new characters properly, although perhaps that was never their wish/intention.

Spoiler alert
Also, the reveal about a particular character made no sense, even if it was planned from the start.
[close]
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 17, 2022, 10:26:46 PM
Yeah Cyclops is quite boring to be fair, which leads me to:

Issue #7: Return of the Blob.

Team graduates and Xavier fucks off to go and do whatever he does before he presumably returns in a few issues. Scott being the one  with no character is given the leadership role. Seeds planted for potential love triangle between Angel, Jean and Cyclops. We get a quick look at a jazz cafe in Greenwich Village that is full of dirty hippies doing beat poetry where Iceman fancies the waitress Zelda. Beast has large feet.

Introduction of Cerebro! It's for Scott, not Xavier. Scott broods because he is SO POWERFUL what if loses control and decides to be alone at his desk, waiting for something to happen. The perennial losers The Brotherhood find Blob at his carnival (Mastermind perving on Scarlet Witch and wanting to lead by the way) and ask him to join. He is still suffering from Xavier's mind rape and just wants to be left alone. An attack by Mags jolts his brain and he joins the Brotherhood out of spite.

Cerebro bleeps, Cyclops assembles the team and they fight Brotherhood. End of fight sees Mags launch torpedoes at X-Men and big boi Blob gets in the way and takes three missiles to the face, no harm done.

He just sadly refuses the x-men and walks off into the distance, going back to being a sideshow freak at the carnival, learning never to trust ever again.

Poor Blob:(

Letters page includes salutations from Thailand and a lad called Rocky absolutely tearing into Lee and Kirby about the costumes and the lack of progression on Cyclops and Jean banging.

As an aside, my favourite X characters have always been Iceman, Nightcrawler and Toad. Reading these early issues, I actually find Beast to be the most well written character as he seems to struggle with guilt, or at least it's hinted at, and, even if it's a bit obvious, the contrast of him being beastly in appearance and physique but also the most erudite and thoughtful does work.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on May 17, 2022, 10:48:05 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on May 17, 2022, 10:26:46 PMYeah Cyclops is quite boring to be fair, which leads me to:

Issue #7: Return of the Blob.

Team graduates and Xavier fucks off to go and do whatever he does before he presumably returns in a few issues. Scott being the one  with no character is given the leadership role. Seeds planted for potential love triangle between Angel, Jean and Cyclops. We get a quick look at a jazz cafe in Greenwich Village that is full of dirty hippies doing beat poetry where Iceman fancies the waitress Zelda. Beast has large feet.

Introduction of Cerebro! It's for Scott, not Xavier. Scott broods because he is SO POWERFUL what if loses control and decides to be alone at his desk, waiting for something to happen. The perennial losers The Brotherhood find Blob at his carnival (Mastermind perving on Scarlet Witch and wanting to lead by the way) and ask him to join. He is still suffering from Xavier's mind rape and just wants to be left alone. An attack by Mags jolts his brain and he joins the Brotherhood out of spite.

Cerebro bleeps, Cyclops assembles the team and they fight Brotherhood. End of fight sees Mags launch torpedoes at X-Men and big boi Blob gets in the way and takes three missiles to the face, no harm done.

He just sadly refuses the x-men and walks off into the distance, going back to being a sideshow freak at the carnival, learning never to trust ever again.

Poor Blob:(

Letters page includes salutations from Thailand and a lad called Rocky absolutely tearing into Lee and Kirby about the costumes and the lack of progression on Cyclops and Jean banging.

As an aside, my favourite X characters have always been Iceman, Nightcrawler and Toad. Reading these early issues, I actually find Beast to be the most well written character as he seems to struggle with guilt, or at least it's hinted at, and, even if it's a bit obvious, the contrast of him being beastly in appearance and physique but also the most erudite and thoughtful does work.

I saved this panel years ago because I loved the way he spoke. Is it from that issue or an earlier one?

(https://i.ibb.co/SfkSdkp/3u-BWi-Ss-L33-gf-TKcn-ZSPDh-L6-RZXyqy4i9l-P3hq-WV22frhp-Xw2-He-PNxe-ZLDLrfs-Iyf64-SE2js8-J7-ZQEn-Ib.png)
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 17, 2022, 11:01:53 PM
Issue #8: Anus the Untouchable.

Xavier was off panel for what? One issue? Beast quits the team in anger - for about 5 minutes - after rescuing a kid and being almost lynched for it, and tries to become a pro-wrestler, but cannot touch Anus the Untouchable (real name Unus but Anus here). Cyclops hits the panic wtf do I do button and Prof X is spelunking in a cave in the Balkans in a floating wheelchair somehow, looking for someone called Lucifer! 

Anus is deadset on joining the Brotherhood (fuck knows why they are abject losers) and his test is to best the X-Men. The team only manage to incapacitate Anus and arrive back to find Beast is back! He is making a special bullshit sci fi ray that will increase Anus' powers but cannot possibly tell anyone his plan because then the team can think he has betrayed them for a few pages.

Anus gets blasted by Beast's machine and cannot touch anything, he cannot even eat. Beast promises to make him back the way he was if Anus promises never to cause trouble, to which he agrees, and walks off. So Beast is a certified tech genius as well as the only character so far who actually gets pissed off at humans being shits. Cementing himself as my favourite again.

Letters pages mix of fawning best comic ever and ideas on how to make it the best comics ever. Couple of them touch on the fact that there is a dearth of good villains (although readers fucking LOVE Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch) which is fair as Anus was basically Blob really. They criticise the overuse of the Brotherhood which really is fair as Mags has been big villain since issue one and I think his team has been main villain or behind villain in maybe 6 of these 8 issues.

One guy wants Vanisher back, which is fine by me he has potential.

Next up: The X-Men meet THE AVENGERS!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 17, 2022, 11:02:59 PM
Quote from: Magnum Valentino on May 17, 2022, 10:48:05 PMI saved this panel years ago because I loved the way he spoke. Is it from that issue or an earlier one?

(https://i.ibb.co/SfkSdkp/3u-BWi-Ss-L33-gf-TKcn-ZSPDh-L6-RZXyqy4i9l-P3hq-WV22frhp-Xw2-He-PNxe-ZLDLrfs-Iyf64-SE2js8-J7-ZQEn-Ib.png)

Ha that's Blob's first appearance. Still a really bizarre issue.

I quite like Blob because he wants nothing to do with either of these stupid teams and just wants to get on, and he knows he's hot shit. His ending in his second appearance is genuinely a big downer.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 18, 2022, 12:32:13 AM
Number 9: Lucifer and the Avengers.

Bastard Xavier gets caught by Lucifer, who as far as I can tell is a lad in a hood who makes stuff. He is the reason Xavier is in a wheelchair (it's not explained so i'll assume it'll be retconned). Prof reaches out to the gang and they sail to Europe, only to meet... The Avengers! Thor's hammer Mjolnir has detected evil and it is weirdly in Bavaria (isnt that where Dr Doom lives?).

X-Men and Avengers fight because a big fuckoff worldending bomb is linked to Lucifer's heartbeat so Xavier can't let the Avengers to hurt him. A stretch but whatever. Xavier uses classic mindrape to subdue Lucifer, then reaches out to Thor and all is well. Avengers leave it to the mutants and walk off, and we discover the Avengers take it in turns to be leader for the week.

X and Cyke (his nickname now) combine to defuse the bomb and all is well, Xavier letting Lucifer go.

Scott and Jean are very horny for each other but just cant act on it because. Weirdly, Scott's anxieties over being so powerful are bizarre considering he can shoot lasers from his eyes, and he cant even control it, whereas Jean can move objects with her mind and Iceman can literaly manipulate molecules, so fuck knows why he is recongised as the powerful one. Iceman finally is starting to look like a man of ice rather than being covered in snow, but fans are NOT happy at all that he has lost his little boots.

I always look forward to the letters page because their nerdy enthusiasm is just a joy. Still gagging for Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch and Lee stubbornly refuses to give Bobby back his boots. Interestingly, a lot of fans want the X-Men to have different uniforms, and there is a big complaint that there have been a lot of 'returns' of villains all across Lee's work; Spider-Man, FF and X-Men. Is this true of the first too? Lee gets a bit arsey about it.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on May 18, 2022, 01:22:34 AM
Quote from: bgmnts on May 18, 2022, 12:32:13 AMNumber 9: Lucifer and the Avengers.

Bastard Xavier gets caught by Lucifer, who as far as I can tell is a lad in a hood who makes stuff. He is the reason Xavier is in a wheelchair (it's not explained so i'll assume it'll be retconned). Prof reaches out to the gang and they sail to Europe, only to meet... The Avengers! Thor's hammer Mjolnir has detected evil and it is weirdly in Bavaria (isnt that where Dr Doom lives?).

X-Men and Avengers fight because a big fuckoff worldending bomb is linked to Lucifer's heartbeat so Xavier can't let the Avengers to hurt him. A stretch but whatever. Xavier uses classic mindrape to subdue Lucifer, then reaches out to Thor and all is well. Avengers leave it to the mutants and walk off, and we discover the Avengers take it in turns to be leader for the week.

X and Cyke (his nickname now) combine to defuse the bomb and all is well, Xavier letting Lucifer go.

Scott and Jean are very horny for each other but just cant act on it because. Weirdly, Scott's anxieties over being so powerful are bizarre considering he can shoot lasers from his eyes, and he cant even control it, whereas Jean can move objects with her mind and Iceman can literaly manipulate molecules, so fuck knows why he is recongised as the powerful one. Iceman finally is starting to look like a man of ice rather than being covered in snow, but fans are NOT happy at all that he has lost his little boots.

I always look forward to the letters page because their nerdy enthusiasm is just a joy. Still gagging for Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch and Lee stubbornly refuses to give Bobby back his boots. Interestingly, a lot of fans want the X-Men to have different uniforms, and there is a big complaint that there have been a lot of 'returns' of villains all across Lee's work; Spider-Man, FF and X-Men. Is this true of the first too? Lee gets a bit arsey about it.

The letters pages aren't on the Unlimited versions of these issues so I'm curious what they made of issue 10, as for me that's a prime example of Lee's weakest moves during this period.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on May 18, 2022, 10:00:16 AM
QuoteThey criticise the overuse of the Brotherhood which really is fair as Mags has been big villain since issue one and I think his team has been main villain or behind villain in maybe 6 of these 8 issues.
I don't think any other 60s Marvel series relied on one enemy nearly as much as X-Men does Magneto and the Brotherhood.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on May 18, 2022, 10:23:56 AM
I like many periods of the X-Men but the Byrne/Clarement/Austin run is the best. Byrne's art never looked better (aside from most of his FF run), and his art plus Terry Austin's inks were streets ahead.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bakabaka on May 18, 2022, 11:02:16 AM
Quote from: Dr Rock on May 18, 2022, 10:23:56 AMI like many periods of the X-Men but the Byrne/Clarement/Austin run is the best. Byrne's art never looked better (aside from most of his FF run), and his art plus Terry Austin's inks were streets ahead.
This was what got me really into comics. I started off just reading Howard the Duck because I love absurdist satire. Then one day I saw an X-men cover that looked interesting and on opening it, the first page included one panel of an Edinburgh shop window being turned into a swarm of bees. As this wasn't what I expected from a superhero comic, I bought it and was hooked for the entire run of C/B/A's team.
I had liked Austin's precise, clean style from his work at DC with Neal Adams and George Pérez, and the pairing with Byrne's 'clear line'-style pencils was wonderful. Sadly, the improvement in print quality and the arrival of digital artwork seems to have killed that style off completely.

The What If (comic) revisiting the Phoenix saga really pissed me off as the original story worked so well, but I had no idea just how often the story would be chewed up, mangled and diminished in multiple repetitions. Which led directly to stopping reading almost all Marvel titles, despite occasionally working in a comic shop.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on May 18, 2022, 11:16:45 AM
Quote from: Dayraven on May 18, 2022, 10:00:16 AMI don't think any other 60s Marvel series relied on one enemy nearly as much as X-Men does Magneto and the Brotherhood.

Let's take a look at the first 38 Spider-Mans, the Ditko run, to see how it compares. After typing this out, it's actually staggering how high the hit rate is. I'd only consider the Ringmaster and the Clown to be duds with no really memorable stories, most of the rest have been part of some real classics and when they reappear it always felt like it meant something.

1.   Chameleon
2.   Vulture
3.   Doctor Octopus
4.   The Sandman
5.   Doctor Doom
6.   The Lizard
7.   The Vulture
8.   The Living Brain
9.   Electro
10.   The Enforcers – Montana, Ox and Fancy Dan – and the fucking BIG MAN yesssssssssss
11.   Doctor Octopus
12.   Doctor Octopus
13.   Mysterio
14.   The Green Goblin
15.   Kraven the Hunter
16.   The Ringmaster (and Daredevil, on a technicality)
17.   Green Goblin
18.   Sandman
19.   Sandman AND the Enforcers
20.   The Scorpion
21.   The Bettle
22.   The Clown and the Masters of Menace
23.   The Green Goblin
24.   His own mind (with illisions of most of the above)
25.   The Spider Slayer
26.   Crime Master, Green Goblin
27.   Green Goblin
28.   Molten Man
29.   Scorpion
30.   The Cat
31.   "The Master Planner"
32.   Part 2
33.   Part 3 (It's Doctor Octopus)
34.   Kraven
35.   Molten Man
36.   The Looter
37.   Robot Master
38.   Joe

Even after Ditko leaves you get the Rhino and the Kingpin almost immediately, with the Prowler not far behind.

I'd say early Spidey fares best with villain usage, although the Fantastic Four did get to twat actual Hitler if I remember right.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on May 18, 2022, 11:17:11 AM
Yes, at that time, everyone who died, stayed dead. Jean Grey was maybe the first to return from the dead, and since then being dead has been a minor inconvenience and nobody believes if a character dies they are gone forever. I mostly stopped reading Marvel in the mid to late 80s, occasionally following a run that I liked. But basically it was all downhill after the first secret wars (except for She-Hulk being in the FF).

Any fans of the annual where the X-men fought Draclia? Liked that.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on May 18, 2022, 06:38:23 PM
I'm a fan of Tomb of Draclia in general but don't think I've read that, must look it up.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 18, 2022, 07:08:16 PM
Quote from: Magnum Valentino on May 18, 2022, 11:16:45 AMLet's take a look at the first 38 Spider-Mans, the Ditko run, to see how it compares. After typing this out, it's actually staggering how high the hit rate is. I'd only consider the Ringmaster and the Clown to be duds with no really memorable stories, most of the rest have been part of some real classics and when they reappear it always felt like it meant something.

1.   Chameleon
2.   Vulture
3.   Doctor Octopus
4.   The Sandman
5.   Doctor Doom
6.   The Lizard
7.   The Vulture
8.   The Living Brain
9.   Electro
10.   The Enforcers – Montana, Ox and Fancy Dan – and the fucking BIG MAN yesssssssssss

Fucking hell so that's 10 different villains in the first 10? At least 5 or so that are iconic villains? Spider-Man fans got the good stuff early on it seems.

X-fans get Magneto and the Brotherhood, Vanisher, Blob, Anus and Lucifer.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 18, 2022, 11:41:05 PM
Issue 10: Ka-zaaar (i pronounce it as Rimmer pronounces Quagaars)

Some more "oh how i love him/her" thoughts from Scott and Jean; beyond that, razor thin issue. Kazar shows up on telly in the antarctica, gang find him under the ice and enter land of the lost. They fight cavemen, they go home. The end.

Kazar has a sabretooth named Zabu.

I noticed there really isnt even a basic set up and payoff in these issues, at the start of the issue Jean is putting together all parts of a rifle and needs to concentrate and does it. So you'd think there would be more danger room set ups with payoffs at the end. There are some of them and maybe I'm not paying close enough attention but considering how spelled out everything is you think they could do a better job. As of its time as these are, i'm still enjoying it all. 9 more Lee issues to go.

Letters were fine, there are a lot more women readers than I thought there would be, and they usually have the best stuff. One writes she wants a backstory to Xavier (she's in love with him) and forming the team (she is also convinced real mutants exist, another woman wrote in a similar thing before) and one woman writes that the correct term is PYSCHOKINESIS, not fucking TELEKINESIS. Owned.

One guy is pissed that Kirby's art is sloppy, they dont take it seriously and that he may be overworked, at least compared to Don Heck and Dick Ayers on the Avengers. Lee replies with "you're entitled to your bone-headed opinion!"

An AMAZING announcement from Stan concerning the letters and new character:

QuoteAnyway, we think that Zabu's long-haired pard is the most exciting new charafter we've come up with in months - and if you don't agree, we're liable to bring Magneto bwck again for another four issues! Let us know fast huh? We're sitting on the edge of our seats!

Unsure if they're just pure taking the piss here or at their wits end from staying up all night every night balancing all these books but that is an incredible bit.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 19, 2022, 12:25:44 AM
#11: Iceman gets his boots back.

Weird Shaw Brothers wuxia looking guy is detected on Xavier's new mutant detecting machine... The Stranger! We find him in NYC renting a room and it turns out he can do everything. He walks through a wall of a random building he is drawn to and who does he find? That's right, Magneto and his team. Magneto recruits him as per and Stranger fucks em all off, literally solidifies Mastermind and teleports himself, Mags and my boy Toad away, they get in a tizz and he cocoons them. X Men fight brotherhood as this happens and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver fuck off back to Europe bht not before saying "we COULD be back to tip the scales who knows".

Turns out Stranger is searching for mutant life across the universe and teleports Mags and Toad away again. Big result for X-Men, Xavier callously wiping away Mags, Mastermind and Toad off the Cerebro list.

However, Xavier detects an even stronger threat! Perhaps the biggest threat they've ever faced!

Letters page is a big 'well, we did it, we binned Magneto, this is what you wanted isnt it?' And the first letter is a guy saying they love Magneto and that they took a poll at his workplace and 93 people voted FOR Mags. Cant believe there are 93 working men at Wayne's Creamery reading X-Men. One reader astutelt points out that Angel has received no characterisation in the book, except in the first issue or two where he is portrayed as slightly haughty and a ladies man.

But then, the same lad liked Iceman better when he was covered in snow rather than, you know, an ICE MAN. Daft cunt. Still, his boots are back, and order is restored.

Oh and not one letter printed about issue 10, which disappointed me.

Next up, fucking Juggernaut!!! I am really pumped for this one.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 19, 2022, 01:00:45 AM
#12: Xavier origins, fucking Juggernaut bitch!

Cerebro - the machine designed to detect mutants - starts going absolute apeshit. Xavier freaks out and has the team set up Home Alone traps around the mansion. He then tells his origins:

He was a nipper when his dad died at a nuclear test and fellow scientist Kurt Marko shacks up with his mum. He's a wanker and to make matters worse, his son Cain, is a bastard n all. Kurt dies in an explosion and reveals Xavier's mental powers with his dying breath. Xavier starts goong mental and winning all kinds of trophies with his powers; sports, running, academic stuff. This makes Cain envious as and he goes off on one.

Meanwhile, someone is just ploughing through the traps and the team are wondering who the hell it is.

Xavier takes us back to the Korean war where Cain runs away into the temple of Cyttorak, where he picks up a ruby. This ruby turns him into the JUGGERNAUT BITCH! and the temple collapses, leading us to the moment where Juggernaut breaks through every trap and is face to face with Xavier. An actually exciting, progrssing issue. However, my main complaint was why the fuck would Cerebro go apeshit when it detects mutants? Juggernaut is not a mutant - he was transformed into a human Juggernaut by the Cyttorak ruby- and so he should have just rocked up quiet as you liked and knocked on the door. Stupidly annoyed me and I hope someone got fired for that blunder.

Still, a new impressive villain that they left on a cliffhanger so I can't complain really.

Letters page: I realised they lag two issues behind derp and so this is all about issue 10 and fucking hell everyone loved it. So gutted with that but yeah land that time forgot with shitty Tarzan was a smash hit with 60s readers EXCEPT one woman who actually had studied evolution and gave a thorough smackdown and pointed out everything scientifically innacurate. Well done Marlene!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on May 19, 2022, 08:48:19 AM
Quote from: bgmnts on May 18, 2022, 11:41:05 PMIssue 10: Ka-zaaar (i pronounce it as Rimmer pronounces Quagaars)

Some more "oh how i love him/her" thoughts from Scott and Jean; beyond that, razor thin issue. Kazar shows up on telly in the antarctica, gang find him under the ice and enter land of the lost. They fight cavemen, they go home. The end.

Kazar has a sabretooth named Zabu.

I noticed there really isnt even a basic set up and payoff in these issues, at the start of the issue Jean is putting together all parts of a rifle and needs to concentrate and does it. So you'd think there would be more danger room set ups with payoffs at the end. There are some of them and maybe I'm not paying close enough attention but considering how spelled out everything is you think they could do a better job. As of its time as these are, i'm still enjoying it all. 9 more Lee issues to go.

Letters were fine, there are a lot more women readers than I thought there would be, and they usually have the best stuff. One writes she wants a backstory to Xavier (she's in love with him) and forming the team (she is also convinced real mutants exist, another woman wrote in a similar thing before) and one woman writes that the correct term is PYSCHOKINESIS, not fucking TELEKINESIS. Owned.

One guy is pissed that Kirby's art is sloppy, they dont take it seriously and that he may be overworked, at least compared to Don Heck and Dick Ayers on the Avengers. Lee replies with "you're entitled to your bone-headed opinion!"

An AMAZING announcement from Stan concerning the letters and new character:

Unsure if they're just pure taking the piss here or at their wits end from staying up all night every night balancing all these books but that is an incredible bit.

Stan has Ka-zar fever and won't stop cramming him in other comics until you love him as much as Stan does. Daredevil gets it the worst when Ka-zar practically takes over the series for a 3 issue run.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 19, 2022, 08:58:15 AM
Ahhhh, no wonder the letters were all strangely supportive.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on May 19, 2022, 11:52:57 AM
Quote from: bgmnts on May 19, 2022, 12:25:44 AM#11: Iceman gets his boots back.

Weird Shaw Brothers wuxia looking guy is detected on Xavier's new mutant detecting machine... The Stranger! We find him in NYC renting a room and it turns out he can do everything. He walks through a wall of a random building he is drawn to and who does he find? That's right, Magneto and his team. Magneto recruits him as per and Stranger fucks em all off, literally solidifies Mastermind and teleports himself, Mags and my boy Toad away, they get in a tizz and he cocoons them. X Men fight brotherhood as this happens and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver fuck off back to Europe bht not before saying "we COULD be back to tip the scales who knows".

Turns out Stranger is searching for mutant life across the universe and teleports Mags and Toad away again. Big result for X-Men, Xavier callously wiping away Mags, Mastermind and Toad off the Cerebro list.

However, Xavier detects an even stronger threat! Perhaps the biggest threat they've ever faced!

Letters page is a big 'well, we did it, we binned Magneto, this is what you wanted isnt it?' And the first letter is a guy saying they love Magneto and that they took a poll at his workplace and 93 people voted FOR Mags. Cant believe there are 93 working men at Wayne's Creamery reading X-Men. One reader astutelt points out that Angel has received no characterisation in the book, except in the first issue or two where he is portrayed as slightly haughty and a ladies man.

But then, the same lad liked Iceman better when he was covered in snow rather than, you know, an ICE MAN. Daft cunt. Still, his boots are back, and order is restored.

Oh and not one letter printed about issue 10, which disappointed me.

Next up, fucking Juggernaut!!! I am really pumped for this one.

I've been reading The Stranger's appearances in order on Marvel Unlimited, and Stan quickly loses track on what his deal is. If indeed he ever had one.

The Thor story with The Stranger is so messy it ends with Thor declaring that Mjolnir can reverse time and he undoes the entire comic.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 19, 2022, 11:57:17 AM
Haha yeah that sounds like a 60s Stan Lee comic from what I've read here.

I just got the feeling he is some sort of cosmic mega being but yeah who knows what the idea is or was.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on May 19, 2022, 12:40:39 PM
How often during Lee's tenure is the Malcolm X/Martin Luther King analogy between Xavier and Magneto touched upon? Is Magneto really trying to protect mutants his way, or is he more often trying to steal a submarine or something?
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 19, 2022, 01:00:40 PM
Quote from: Dr Rock on May 19, 2022, 12:40:39 PMHow often during Lee's tenure is the Malcolm X/Martin Luther King analogy between Xavier and Magneto touched upon? Is Magneto really trying to protect mutants his way, or is he more often trying to steal a submarine or something?

Well there are around 8 issues left and nothing so far. Magneto is a one note moustache twirling mutant hell bent on subjugating homo sapiens. In fact, there is no real subtext towards the civil rights movement -other than the fact that mutants aren't universally loved -at least for me, although some people love the X-Men in universe so I don't know.  I don't think Magneto and Xavier even had a proper conversation about mutants at all but I may be not paying attention. Considering Mags has been teleported away I presume they won't ever.

I dont remember there being much about the civil right's stuff in the early Claremont run, as the team is international and multi racial, so maybe it starts with Roy Thomas, I would be interested to know where these claims come from, and the relationship between Mags and Charles as a MLK/Malcolm X dynamic. Is that just a legacy of the early 00s films?
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on May 19, 2022, 02:18:57 PM
Well as I recall Stan takes credit for it in later years.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 19, 2022, 03:12:36 PM
I get the feeling Stan Lee takes credit for a lot of things to be quite honest.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on May 19, 2022, 04:18:11 PM
QuoteYes, at that time, everyone who died, stayed dead. Jean Grey was maybe the first to return from the dead, and since then being dead has been a minor inconvenience and nobody believes if a character dies they are gone forever.
I'd say it's been a more gradual process than that. Stories ending with villains apparently dying followed by an explanation of how they survived in their next appearance was common long before Jean Grey's return. It just gets extended to heroes and treated more and more casually over time.

There's an example of a hero coming back later from an apparent death in these first 66 issues, in fact.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on May 19, 2022, 04:26:11 PM
QuoteI get the feeling Stan Lee takes credit for a lot of things to be quite honest.
Same here.

The introduction of the Sentinels in a couple of issues' time sets up the mutants as persecuted minority a bit, but a lot of that stuff comes later. It's only partway through Claremont's run that Magneto starts to get any sympathetic portrayal.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 19, 2022, 04:43:16 PM
Yeah, just to reiterate this point, there is a letter which ends with basically "I hope Marvel makes bank and you all retire rich!" and Stan replies with
QuoteThat last phrase of your sentence really grabbed us... those last half dozen words contain a magnificent sentiment which no right thinking soul would ever dispute
When you consider Steve Ditko died penniless, it's a bit of a kick in the teeth really. I wonder how much money Stan got.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on May 19, 2022, 08:21:45 PM
If I remember correctly he wasn't as well off as you might think. Stan Lee himself was kinda fucked over by Marvel towards the end, I think.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on May 19, 2022, 08:27:56 PM
Yes, he never owned Marvel, never owned any characters, only worked for it and got a salary. I think it's complex, as all the time he tried to spread the word about Marvel, he would say 'we at Marvel do it like this' but was invariably introduced as 'the man who created Spider-Man, Hulk etc.' By people who wouldn't understand that the writer wasn't the sole creator anyway. He could've done better, but he mostly did a lot to explain it was a collaborative medium.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on May 19, 2022, 08:29:07 PM
Quote from: Magnum Valentino on May 19, 2022, 08:21:45 PMIf I remember correctly he wasn't as well off as you might think. Stan Lee himself was kinda fucked over by Marvel towards the end, I think.

I certainly don't think he was hard up for money, but he did have some hard times after his wife died, as he was being ripped off and exploited by a lot of shady people around him, which was pretty sad to hear about.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on May 19, 2022, 08:41:21 PM
Quote from: Dayraven on May 19, 2022, 04:18:11 PMI'd say it's been a more gradual process than that. Stories ending with villains apparently dying followed by an explanation of how they survived in their next appearance was common long before Jean Grey's return. It just gets extended to heroes and treated more and more casually over time.

There's an example of a hero coming back later from an apparent death in these first 66 issues, in fact.

Prof X?

Yes I mean to say it happened to super-villains often, particularly Dr Doom, I guess there was some expectation that the villains could cheat death if there was some wacky explanation for it. Funny how they never bought back Green Goblin in those early days, nobody would've minded.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 21, 2022, 02:34:40 PM
#13: Juggernaut Bitch pt.2

Okay so Juggers is in and X-Men are screwed now. Xavier instantly tries his mindfuck power but Jugs' special helmet makes him impervious to mindfucks. The gang wheel Xavier off to get him his power magnifier thing and he goes to work charging up his mental energy, venting off what I can only call discharge over NYC. Cyclops and Angel take turns slowing Angel down but get mullered. Scenes of Xavier's mental energy castoff having an effect on the people - including a one panel cameo of Daredevil in court. Xavier accidentally contacts Johnny Storm a.k.a The Human Torch and he is reluctant to respond as he thinks its a Dr Doom or Wizard (who?) trap. Eventually he says fuck it and comes in to help save the day.

Before he arrives, it's Beast's turns to delay Jugs and while fighting FINALLY Xavier has his brainwave and says "REMOVE HIS SPECIAL HELMET". Fucksake. Beast gets caned and then Torch shows up and does a massive blinding light of fire, incapacitating Juggers and Angel swoops in and takes his helmet off, leaving Juggernaut at the mercy of one of Xaviers more potent mindrapes. Xavier then thanks Storm and gives him a little mindrape and sends him on his way.

X-Men are all fucked except Jean who is a "girl" so cannot fight the Juggernaut obviously and is nursing them back to health. Xavier insists they all clean up the mess after, the prick.

Quite liked this issue, a new, scary villain driven by pure hatred - a portion of it rightfully - to Xavier. It's personal with him and barely anything can stop him. I wished it played out a bit better though, ideally it would be "gang work on teamwork in danger room, fight juggernaut, realise they need his helmet off, work as team to take helmet off" setup payoff stuff, but I guess Lee wanted Johnny Storm in this issue for some reason. It would have been better to see the image of four x-men holding each of Juggers limbs in place whilst one takes off his helmet, that is what I was expecting.

Still, definitely one of the best issues so far. I really like Juggernaut he rules. It is interesting to wonder how much of that is Cain Marko and how much is it the influence of the Cyttorak. Is that a thing in other marvel comics? Is it an evil force? Or does it just give you powers. Cain was always a massive prick but as Juggernaut here he feels possessed almost.

Letters were overwhelmingly positive for The Stranger and issue 11, fair enough. They also gave us the information that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are now members of the Avengers, which I sort of knew but still what a step up. I'm assume FF, Spidey and The Avengers are the flagship marvel books at this point right? So fucking hell their popularity was astounding.

Next up: Sentinels! We are cooking with gas now.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: elliszeroed on May 21, 2022, 07:13:29 PM
I was enjoying the new Hickman run until Swords of X crossover where they take part in a huge tournament against fairies and other dimensions because Krakatoa had a lover, or something, I couldn't follow it and dropped it.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 21, 2022, 11:59:08 PM
Yeah if there are any good new books out there let's talk about them, spoilers if possibl. I'm always going to be playing catch up though as it's taken me ages just to get to:

Issue 14: The Sentinels.

Another big name and debut. It starts with a much needed... VACATION! Angel goes back to his folks, giving Jean a lift, Cyclops broods and just goes off alone because he's crap, but Jean and Scott fancy the pants off each other, and readers are gagging for romance . Angel is getting some backstory here, and some development. The past few issues we've gotten the impression his wings are as limbs and that flying is pleasurable; he loves getting them out of his restraints. Iceman asks him (the same one asked to Stan in the last letter page hmmmm*) how his parents didnt notice his wings as a baby and he clarifies he sprouted them later on as a teenager I think is the usual story for most mutants..

Bobby and Hank are still a double act and go to the Cafe A Go-Go to flirt with Zelda and watch Bernard the Poet. Cyclops is frightened of his power again changing into his civvies and shudders to think what would happen if his protective glasses fell off (this happened literally two issues ago ffs).

Meanwhile, a Dr Trask decided mutants are a threat and starts a mutant panic in the press, which pretty much decides their fate to the public. Still no civil rights stuff, it feels more akin to McCarthyism witch-hunts to me but ho hum.

Xavier debates Trask on telly and Trask decides to showcase his mutant fighting creations... The Sentinels. Laughably, they sneak up on Xavier (they're by no means the giant monoliths yet but still huge pink robots).

Comically, they instantly turn on Trask and kidnap him and Xavier mentally calls out to the gang. Cyclops is in a cab which turns sharply, causing his greatest fear since a few issues ago: his glasses come off and he shoots a mega laser ray. People chase him but bottle it soon after. The gang fight the lone sentinel left in the studio and it falls over and dies, Xavier getting the words Master Mold out of it's 'mind'.

They go to their base was and the end of the issue has a large, innocent field terraform into a bunker fortress!

Letters were good:

One complaint over Kirby not being the full artist anymore, he is now just "designing" or doing the "layouts". Comic artists tell me what this means, is this like a description of how the scene should look for the penciller to draw or rough sketches or what? The guy isnt happy though he wants Kirby.

Couple of people hate their conceited nature.

A few readers want individual costumes and fucking hell they're spot on, it would be so much better.

Holy fuck YES! Peter of Freeport N.Y. asks: "how did the Cerebro machine react to him [Juggernaut] - I thought it was only designed to react to a mutant's brainwaves." They have no response.

Decent issue, I'm loving that these are becoming more serialised and that things are holding over from previous issues (for example, this issue sees the first panel showing us the gang still rehabilitating from Jugs. Good stuff) and they are setting up things next issue. No villain of the week stuff.

Oh yeah X-MEN ARE MONTHLY NOW!

*I am very much wondering how much the readers are legitimately writing this book half the time.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Ron Maels Moustache on May 22, 2022, 12:53:03 AM
Quote from: bgmnts on May 21, 2022, 11:59:08 PMOne complaint over Kirby not being the full artist anymore, he is now just "designing" or doing the "layouts". Comic artists tell me what this means, is this like a description of how the scene should look for the penciller to draw or rough sketches or what? The guy isnt happy though he wants Kirby.



Yeah, layouts are the roughs most artists create when they're trying to figure out where everything should be in a panel, before they start drawing it for real. So this is basically an indication that Kirby's winding down his work on the title and he'll be gone from it entirely in a couple of issues time, and Stan soon will be too (although he gets a "plotted by" credit for a while).
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 22, 2022, 01:43:15 AM
Quote from: Ron Maels Moustache on May 22, 2022, 12:53:03 AMYeah, layouts are the roughs most artists create when they're trying to figure out where everything should be in a panel, before they start drawing it for real. So this is basically an indication that Kirby's winding down his work on the title and he'll be gone from it entirely in a couple of issues time, and Stan soon will be too (although he gets a "plotted by" credit for a while).

Ah right okay then makes sense.

Stan at least ending his run on a positive note with Juggernaut and Sentinels, credit where it's due.

Willing to accept he's got some real dog shit to drop just before he leaves though.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 22, 2022, 10:06:01 AM
#15 Master Mold!

So the team get ambushed by the fortress but escape, and they formulate a plan to enter the base using some weird ice disc and Scott's mega beam. An aside on Cyclops' power: in an earlier issue his eye beams leak and vent through his closed eyes but now he is able to close his eyes when opening his visor no bother. I'll just say he can control it better, although he cannot control his power because he banged his head right? God knows.
Anyway, he launches them but it fails and Bobby and Hank are captured. Beast is taken for interrogation with Master Mold. Mold is a giant fat Sentinel created by Trask who wants him to create more sentinels. Beast is subjected to the "psycho probe" to spill beans and we get our first origin story!

Beast's dad was a scientists, so potential radiation as a cause. His power manifests after a bully almost gets him run over. He excels scholastically and at sports but gets carried away scoring a touchdown and hangs upside down from the sticks by his feet and so Xavier invites him to the school. His parents are aware of him being a mutant and are loving and supportive it seems. So there we are, dull Beast.

Before Beast can reveal the X-Men hideout, Xavier projects himself and sends "thought particles" (the fuck?) to Beast to stop the psycho probe. He then goes and tries to mindrape Master Mold but he senses him and attacks his astral form - apparently being composed of "electrical thought waves" (the fuck?). He retreats but cannot reach his body, which turns out would leave him in a trance fugue state.

Sentinels use a heavy gravity ray and the X-Men are defeated. Trask is dragged off kicking and screaming to create sentinels, realising the error of his ways.

Another good issue, we're starting to pick up speed and I really want to learn more about these characters. Sadly, we've had FUCK ALL on Jean Grey besides the fact she's a laaaady and her power seems to be growing pretty quickly (unsure if deliberate but i've noticed it).

Some interesting letters here: a fan accusing Stan of bungling Juggernauts and Xavier's origin: by making it clear Xavier can mindread and having him be an insufferable arsehole, he should have known Cain's feelings, and he does come off bad really. Interesting opinion and I don't disagree.

Mostly letters asking marvel questions and saying how these mutants aren't true mutants in the evolutionary sense (I assume this will be addressed later, as they do treat it as they are a new species - Homo Superior).

Part 3 of the Sentinel Saga coming next!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on May 22, 2022, 10:56:25 AM
You've a long wait for any more origin stories. Roy Thomas eventually starts doing Cyclops's origin as a back up strip in issue 38.

And get ready for more plot holes regarding eyebeams there too! One of which was only resolved in the 21st century (who gave him ruby quartz glasses before he met Xavier?)
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 22, 2022, 11:14:41 AM
Well that is a shame but I have to admit the quality is improving a bit.

And yeah that plot holes are sort of part of the fun a little bit, and it's always good to know i'm not alone when pointing these out, the readers from the past always seem to have my back.

Just realised a lot of these letters page readers are probably dead.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on May 22, 2022, 11:56:55 AM
Really enjoying this bgmnts
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 22, 2022, 01:02:25 PM
Cheers! I'm very much enjoying reading these and recapping/reviewing them. Excited to see where everything goes.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 24, 2022, 09:34:07 PM
16, Sentinels part 3: A life is lost... a battle is won!

Xavier just about makes it back into his body! He watches the fortress sink into the ground and states he cannot help the X-Men now. Considering he can send his projection and mental abilities to the bottom of the ocean to watch Namor,it strikes me as odd but whatever.

He mindrapes some guys into giving him a lift back to the city and persuades the coppers to let him have a gander at the dead sentinel in the studio. He realises there is a giant crystal on top of a building opposite and has a eureka moment: it blocks the sentinel signal!

The gang are in a 'heavy grav globe', an egg shap where they cannot move. Iceman tries his best to prove himself a valued part of the team , creating an icy ram, but fucks it. Still, Cyclops says well done and refers to him as a man, making Iceman happy. Little bit of Iceman characterisation there.

Trask is ordered by Master Mold to create new sentinels and takes him to the sentinel making room. 

As Beast is sent back to the heavy grav globe the gang strike and catch the dumb sentinels by surprise. They start to fight their way around and make for the sentinel  making room. Xavier apears in a helicopter with the huge crystal dangling from it and this causes the dumb sentinels to keel over and die.

Trask umms and ahhs about what he's doing and has been regretful the whole issue really about hating mutants, reflecting that his solution is worse than the problem. In a mega face turn, he smashes up the sentinel making machine and causes an absolute massive explosion.

The heat from the explosion causes Iceman to pass out and Beast carries him on his legs out the base, where they just about escape the explosion!

The penultimate panel shows a dead seeming master mold and a dead seeming trask on top of him buried under rubble and the last panel shows a 'shadow of menace' against presumably the mansion wall.

Fun issue, wrapped everything up really quickly, maybe a bit too quickly but ho hum. Bit of development for Bobby here and he looks like he could be on death's door or severely weakened at the end of this issue. Good setup for next issue.

Milestone moment also: first use of the word crippled to describe Professor X. Bad old days.

Letters page is a bit bland today, beyond a letter slagging off the misuse of homo sapiens as a plural form, and a letter which compares Cyclops' eye beam to a pool cue! Everyone loved the Juggers issue fair play and a lot of people liking the new artists Alex Toth and 'Jay Gavin' (nom de plume of a Werner Roth). I myself like the art, despite not really having an eye for comic book art beyond 'if it's incredibly stylised and shit i'll probably hate it'.  It's nice and clean and not a huge difference from Kirby proper. Iceman looks much better now and has sharper outlines which looks good in his ice form.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on May 24, 2022, 09:51:13 PM
QuoteIt's nice and clean and not a huge difference from Kirby proper.
Toth isn't so well known to comics fans (partly because a lot of his work was scattered issues instead of long runs), but has a "cartoonist's cartoonist" reputation.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on May 24, 2022, 11:50:55 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on May 24, 2022, 09:34:07 PMEveryone loved the Juggers issue fair play and a lot of people liking the new artists Alex Toth and 'Jay Gavin' (nom de plume of a Werner Roth). I myself like the art, despite not really having an eye for comic book art beyond 'if it's incredibly stylised and shit i'll probably hate it'.  It's nice and clean and not a huge difference from Kirby proper. Iceman looks much better now and has sharper outlines which looks good in his ice form.

Werner Roth is a good artist, but as you will discover as the series goes on, he is also a racist artist.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 25, 2022, 02:56:48 AM
Oh Jesus, well i'm looking forward to that.

So far the series has been mercifully free of anything too dodgy, a bit of casual misogyny towards Jean calling her honey and that shit but no outward racist or sexist shit from my immediate memory so well done Stan.

Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 25, 2022, 04:23:05 PM
Oh for anyone interested in going back and reading these, then I am going to be using these reading lists (https://www.comicbookherald.com/the-complete-x-men-reading-order-guide-modern-marvel-comics-era/) to keep track of what I should be reading and when, all the way up to the Marvel Now! era.

And to any experts, is this selection of reading lists a good guide?
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 25, 2022, 10:21:57 PM
Issue 17: None shall survive!

Okay so sentinels have left Iceman in a coma (still able to keep his ice form somehow) and Beast and Jean a bit worse for. Xavier is on the scene and is thanked by the leader of the army there, who confesses that he also feared the power of mutants but doesn't now that they risked their lives. Incredibly Xavier thinks "That's why I decided to release my mental hold over your mind - so the x-men would get due credit". The huge irony and contradiction here is that X is the perfect example of a mutant to be terrified of. He's benevolent but his constant mindraping and intrusive entering of people's heads is staggeringly unethical and he's just a twat. Maybe me being too harsh but it's so glaring.

Cunt Xavier visits all the X-Men and mentally reinforces in them to keep their costumes on and DONT REVEAL YOUR IDENTITIES, to which he immediately answers Beast's queries about Iceman's condition with - out loud mind - "No, McCoy [my bold]! He is still on the critical list..." Fucking hell.

Then Angel gets a call from his parents saying they want to visit him at the school so he rushes back to the mansion and gets wrecked with a pane of glass (no joke, the daft cunt flies right into it) by a mysterious villain.

Rest of the issue turns into a slasher film, wirh Xavier and Cyke getting taking out and then Jean and Beast getting taken out too. The villain is never shown but has a seeming history with the X-Men, knows their powers and they all recognise him. I WONDER WHO IT COULD BE!

The villain puts the gang in a hot air sphere thing and his plan is for them to get so high they run out of air.

At this very moment Angel's parents knock on the door only to be greeted by the one and only... Toad Magneto!

Iceman is still in a coma by the way, but he is the wwakest of the x-men! How could he save them? Find out next issue.

Some frustrating shite here i've already whinged about. I will say the cover is amazing! The four x-men and xavier lying on the floor with a shadow coming out of the door frame, all red colouring with the black contrast. Definitely gripped me with that. So fair play artist. We've also gotten the first full page panel I think, of Angel flying. I quite like the art overall it's good.

Letters page bit boring, one guy hates the art in #14 but a few like it so who knows.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on May 25, 2022, 10:54:24 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on May 25, 2022, 10:21:57 PMI will say the cover is amazing! The four x-men and xavier lying on the floor with a shadow coming out of the door frame, all red colouring with the black contrast. Definitely gripped me with that. So fair play artist. We've also gotten the first full page panel I think, of Angel flying. I quite like the art overall it's good.

Kirby. Worth sharing, this one.

(https://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/a/60/589b6da28f3f9/clean.jpg)

Can't believe you revealed the incredible ending to a living soul though.

I've just read that apparently they 'fixed' the McCoy gaff in later printings. Still can't compare with Spider-Man busting in on Dr Octopus and the daft cunt exclaiming SUPERMAN in one of the earlier issues of ASM.

Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 25, 2022, 11:02:18 PM
#18: Iceman is the WEAKEST.

So Magneto goes nuts and takes over the school, using his power of 'magnetic attraction' to control Angel's parents and use them as a catalyst for his mutant making machine. Oh yeah his plan is to create millions of mutants to take over the world. Really getting the Malcolm X/MLK vibes here. By the way, Magneto can: astral project, shoot beams out his hands, has telekinesis and can now manipulate people with magnetic attraction.

Gang sans Bobby are in the ball floating up and Xavier contacts Iceman and gets him to come to the school, whilst preparing for the most difficult thought projection ever!

Flashback, Magneto was teleported to an empty planet with Toad. Stranger leaves them, Magneto makes ladder to get into ship, leaves Toad behind, comes home. That's the explanation we get for Magneto coming back from oblivion. Poor Toadie.

Iceman tries to fight Magneto and sabotage his plans despite being the WEAKEST of the X-Men. The gang use their powers to safely descend in the sphere and join the fight. Halfway through X gets the to stand down and tells Mags to look behind him... it's The Stranger! Turns out X projected his thoughts into the infinite and contacted Stranger I guess. Magneto pegs it and the gang wake up with Angel's parents being none the wiser at the breakfast and all wrapped up in a nice bow.

Utter shite.

An absolutely bonkers letter from a bloke whow doesn't like Iceman's art because he has features when iced up, and that if Jean doesnt stop insulting Beast, he shoild give her a 'dearly needed spanking'. He also says Jean looked 'as feminine as The Hulk' so this lad has issues. As an aside, Beast is a bit of an incel in these issues, with his pomposity and referring to Jean as 'female'.

A letter from Japan! So we've Japan, Jordan and somewhere else I cant remember.

A woman writes in saying they should take these comics more seriously, and I think she has a point. She gets a silly response.

Oh and also, Jack Kirby is officially gone now. This issue was just Jay Gavin.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 25, 2022, 11:07:21 PM
Quote from: Magnum Valentino on May 25, 2022, 10:54:24 PMKirby. Worth sharing, this one.

(https://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/a/60/589b6da28f3f9/clean.jpg)

Can't believe you revealed the incredible ending to a living soul though.

I've just read that apparently they 'fixed' the McCoy gaff in later printings. Still can't compare with Spider-Man busting in on Dr Octopus and the daft cunt exclaiming SUPERMAN in one of the earlier issues of ASM.



Yeah it is a good cover. Unsure who was doing what at that point but yeah credit to Kirby it's an inspired cover. We havent had anything like that yet, they've all been generic action covers with the gang about to fight the villain. So that little bit of style stuck out.

Honestly I didnt even think it was a mistake. I mean, it IS a mistake but it's an excusable mistake: I thought it was just Xavier being shit.

Just googled the Spiderman gaff and fucking hell I laughed for five minutes. Amaaaazing.

(https://i.stack.imgur.com/dqsZ6.jpg)
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on May 25, 2022, 11:15:24 PM
Peter also accidentally had the surname Palmer in one of those early issues. Just didn't give a fuck.

I've read those early issues in so many formats, from reprints in UK comics to the paperback Masterworks, Omnibus, the massive Ditko Is Amazing hardcover... I think it's about 50/50 on how often it's corrected.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 25, 2022, 11:48:09 PM
Yeah I can definitely see these 60s issues have an air of slapdash about them. So messy. I wont lie, i'm only a third of the way through, but i'm looking forward to getting to actually good X-Men I know.

#19: Mimicry is the shitest form of flattery.

Vacation time! Jean is off shopping (ugh) Cyclops is angsty (ughhh) and Beast and Iceman shoot off to the library to see Zelda the coffee waitress and a blind date for Hank. The blind date is named Vera and on the way home they get accosted by an admirer of hers, an absolute arsehole named Calvin Rankin. He gets into fisticuffs with Hank and Bobby and is able to move like the Beast and make ice shit like Iceman. Enter The Mimic! It's explained quickly that he can mimicry anyone's ability or superpower by being near them, but it diminishes as they get further away. He later bumps into Jean Grey and so now knows three identities of the X-Men.

He shows up at the school appearing to join them but the gang see through it immediately. He goes upstairs and changes into his Mimic costume. Fight happens and he kidnaps Jean and takes her to a mineshaft. We get backstory:

Rankin's dad was a scientist working on bad shit and he went out one day and boom Calvin got gas in the face and woke up able to do anything the person near him could do. This led him to be the best at everything academically and in sport, which drew the ire of his peers (weird how that didnt happen to Xavier eh?). He's gutted his powers arent permanent so his dad moves them into a mineshaft to keep away from authorities and create a machine to make powers permanent.

The machine short circuits the entire county and an angry mob show up to get them, only for Rankin's dad to blow up explosives at the mouth of the mine to stop them, getting caught in the blast. Rankin swears vengeance after digging out of the mineshaft. This is why he needs the x-men to follow him so he can use his powers to get to the machine buried under rubble. Although if he was able to dog himself out without powers surely there is a way back inside? Fuck it maybe it collapsed or something who cares.

They fight and Mimic just about gets in the machine with Xavier but collapses. Xavier causes the machine to short circuit with his mental powers (yes he can affect non minds with his mind powers has been for a while fuck knows how), and they escape the blast.

Turns out the machine actually removed Calvin's powers, as his dad was afraid of what society would do to him if they found out. Calvin is one of Xavier's many mindrape victims and walks off to start a new life.

I like Mimic and hope he comes back somehow.

Next issue: return of Anus, Blob AND Lucifer! Get fucking in!

Letters page is boring but one does write in saying how stupid Iceman looked on the cover of issue 16. Absolutely love when someone writes in ripping piss out of Stan and co.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on May 26, 2022, 08:14:12 AM
Have you seen any letters from future famous people yet? The Spider-Man letters pages have quite a few from future Spider-Man writers as young lads, and I know George RR Martin and Paul Gambaccini were regular writers to Fantastic Four.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on May 26, 2022, 09:13:44 AM
QuoteNext issue: return of Anus, Blob AND Lucifer! Get fucking in!
This is also where Roy Thomas takes over from Stan Lee. Thomas was probably one of the first examples of fan-turned-writer, and at this point he does a pastiche of Lee plus a greater fondness for literary and 1940s comic references (which he can get really pedantic about, but that doesn't happen much in this series).
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 26, 2022, 06:22:06 PM
Quote from: Dayraven on May 26, 2022, 09:13:44 AMThis is also where Roy Thomas takes over from Stan Lee. Thomas was probably one of the first examples of fan-turned-writer, and at this point he does a pastiche of Lee plus a greater fondness for literary and 1940s comic references (which he can get really pedantic about, but that doesn't happen much in this series).

You are correct, although Lee is still editing the mag so I'm unsure how much of this stuff is Lee's input.

I'm hoping that a fan-turned-writer might have a more serious or - I dunno - a more caring approach.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on May 26, 2022, 07:10:50 PM
I think it makes a big difference with Spider-Man. It spins its wheels for a long time after Ditko leaves (some great stories mind, that's not a dig) but it's not until Lee leaves and Gerry Conway is appointed his full time replacement (after a few issues from - surprise - Roy Thomas!) that the book becomes properly brilliant again.

Famously Roger Stern was a huge Spider-Man fan for years before being chosen to write it, and he's one of the very best of all time.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 27, 2022, 09:15:03 PM
Just out of interest, do you X fans think there would be much interest in this retrospective in the form of a blog or podcast? I used to listen to the Uncanny X Cast a looong time ago but unsure if that still exists, so dont know if there'd be any demand to revisit these comics beyond my own enjoyment.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on May 27, 2022, 09:29:15 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on May 27, 2022, 09:15:03 PMJust out of interest, do you X fans think there would be much interest in this retrospective in the form of a blog or podcast? I used to listen to the Uncanny X Cast a looong time ago but unsure if that still exists, so dont know if there'd be any demand to revisit these comics beyond my own enjoyment.

Yeah. Get on that YouTube. The hook is your amusing takes.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on May 27, 2022, 10:59:04 PM
Quote from: Dr Rock on May 27, 2022, 09:29:15 PMYeah. Get on that YouTube. The hook is your amusing takes.

Cheers! My worry then would be that it would be less fun as the books get less silly. Def thinking about it though.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: madhair60 on June 01, 2022, 09:06:48 AM
calling Unus "Anus" makes me laugh every time because I imagine the X-Men doing it and him getting wound up
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 03, 2022, 04:49:30 PM
I now imagine the X-Men calling him Anus and it makes me smile.

In fact, this issue is just awesome because it's Blob and Anus and I couldn't be happier with this pair.

Bit of a short hiatus because I was just a bit burnt out and am trying to work out how a podcast works and how to stop reflexively vomiting every time I hear my voice in an audio recording. If I get round to making it then I'll post it here if that's okay with Barry.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on June 03, 2022, 04:54:50 PM
Maybe you could do a podcast focusing on the wackiness of other 60s Marvel mags instead of/as well as a journey through the X-Men history. Or would that not tickle your fancy?
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: madhair60 on June 03, 2022, 05:20:09 PM
cant you just do a thread? why does it have to be a podcast.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 03, 2022, 05:29:45 PM
#20: I, Lucifer: We Need to Talk About Anus.

   So we open with Blob AND Anus (YES!) dressed in the yellow and blue X-Uniforms robbing a bank. My initial reaction was one of immense joy at the adorable thought of Blob and Anus staying up all night to sew their own costumes, as surely they would need a custom fit. Blob met Anus at an event and they quickly figured they were both mutants and both hate the X-Men so let's team up.
   Cyclops QUITS THE TEAM! because he loves Jean but his eyes are just too dangerous, searching for a doctor to cure his eye beams What happens when he sleeps or showers, does he still wear the glasses? Anyway, he runs into Blob and Anus and manages to change into his costume exactly one minute later to confront them. The masses have none of it though, so Scott runs away from potential lynching #763
   Xavier runs through the list of villains in his head as to ascertain who this could be on the telly making the X-Men look bad in a bit straight out of the Simpsons: Magneto... Juggernaut... dental plan... Vanisher... Stranger... dental plan.
   Meanwhile, Lucifer is back, watching it all unfold on telly, revealing that this is his doing. Bizarrely, he is dressed as Magneto, with the red top and bottoms and a purple band and cape.
   The rest of gang confront Blob n' Anus and Beast goes to use his science ray that he used ages ago to get Anus to stop doing crimes, by augmenting his powers to the point where he couldn't even eat. However, the ray doesnt work and the people start beating up Hank and Cyclops rescues them by shooting a beam straight down the NYC pavement causing Blob and Anus to get whisked away by the subway.
   Lucifer's mento-wave reciever goes nuts and, as per his mysterious plan, Xavier has penetrated his mental screen. In a southwestern part of the US, a gigantic ball shape on top of a tower emerges from a canyon, and a cannon emerges from the ball (a canyon cannon) and shoots up into space. This potent beam will go back to the source of Xavier's mind stuff and the world will be Lucifer's mwahahaha!
   Xavier goes into a coma due to Lucifer's mind rape and Jean (who had to stay behind because girls can't fight or something I dunno) has to use the mental amplifier to listen to Xavier's wheelchair's origin story:
   
Xavier goes to Tibet and finds a walled city under the thrall of Lucifer. He attempts to stop him and it is here we see Lucifer is an alien and is contacted by a large head in a green mask, referring to Lucifer as "Agent One". Lucifer is commanded to relocate and on the way he drops a concrete slab on Xavier, which confines him to a wheelchair.

Fin.

Back to the present, Lucifer's success in manipulating Blob and Anus heralds the imminent appearance of Dominus! And Jean relays a message to Beast to make some sci fi device that is basically his head in a fishtank that revives him. They shoot off in a new jet to confront Lucifer.

Letters:

Nothing interesting beyond a letter from Portsmouth. A bloke who thought that american comics were "drivel" but has been converted thanks to the X-Men and Sgt. Fury.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 03, 2022, 05:32:19 PM
Quote from: Dr Rock on June 03, 2022, 04:54:50 PMMaybe you could do a podcast focusing on the wackiness of other 60s Marvel mags instead of/as well as a journey through the X-Men history. Or would that not tickle your fancy?

Possibly, to be quite honest these are fun for a bit of a pisstake and interesting as a foundation that the characters were built on but I waiver on whether these are actually fun to read or not. I could branch out and read other things but the X-Men are a big enough task for now!

Quote from: madhair60 on June 03, 2022, 05:20:09 PMcant you just do a thread? why does it have to be a podcast.

Well I'm still doing this thread, just thought maybe I could do it in another format also. Unsure yet.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 06, 2022, 03:37:46 PM
21: X-Menas eunt Dominus.

So the gang are on their way to the Southwest when a bolt of light from space goes into the butte in the canyons and this is also seen by some cowboys not too far away. Surprise, surprise, they have heard of the exploits of the X-Men robbing that bank in the previous issue on the radio and they meet and get in a pointless fight that just wastes a few minutes. Xavier gets kidnapped by these green robots and the gang get sucked into a whirlpool.
  Turns out DOMINUS is just a big stupid machine and the robots are integral to the function of it; namely enslaving planets through mind control. This is Lucifer's plan for Earth. The X-Men all get owned by the dumbest shit like a glass box and a wall, as per, and Xavier goes all stoic and quiet. Bobby and Hank are the only ones here with some dynamic and relationship.
  The gang escape the prison box and whilst travelling to the heart of the machine where Xavier and Lucifer are they get a mental message from Xavier to NOT wreck Dominus. Only Cyclops believes this is real and goes so far as to eye-beam Angel to stop him from hulk smashing the base. Iceman goes nuts and almost ice cubes Cyke before Jean stops him.
  The robots start going mad and try to kill the gang and keep smashing into Dominus, ending with all of them getting exploded, rendering Dominus useless somehow. This was Xavier's plan all along and managed to subtly manipulate Lucifer into making sure he controls the robots recklessly.
  Lucifer get's teleported into the Phantom Zone or whatever and that's the end of that. Up next: Count Nefaria.

  Sorry guys but this was absolute dogshit and I don't know if it's because I am tired but this just felt like a slog and a waste of my time. I'm only a third of the way through this shit as well, I hope it at least get's entertaining again. Personally, I want to read about a team of Blob, Anus, Toad and Mastermind all committing petty crimes whilst trying not to kill each other. I'm not a fan of the art really either, the faces look weird and there was even a mistake I spotted on the cover, where Lucifer's hood was read and not purple.
  Unsure if it's always been the case but the x-men sometimes have no eyes in their outfits, just white Batman things, making them look like the old Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Meh letters, some love the art, some hate the art. Some didnt like issues 17 and 18, some did.

Now, I know Count Nefaria because he is in Giant Sized era and I believe he crosses over from Avengers etc, so I know he's stupid but I'm hoping he adds a bit of oomph into this.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on June 06, 2022, 06:39:57 PM
Missed these.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 06, 2022, 09:53:41 PM
Ha i'm glad. I took a sneak peek at the cover of next issue and Count Nefaria has a squad of creitnous gimmick goons and i'm fuuuuucking excited.

There was a two page little piece by Roy Thomas on his recollection of these issues that I decided not to fully read as they delved into spoilers but caught glimpses of Porcupine and Scarecrow. They look nice and shit and i'm pumped to the max.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 07, 2022, 08:24:43 PM
Would it be a good idea to perhaps get the newer comics in as well when they're available and discuss them at the same time? Maybe starting with Bendis' All New run?
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 07, 2022, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 07, 2022, 08:24:43 PMWould it be a good idea to perhaps get the newer comics in as well when they're available and discuss them at the same time? Maybe starting with Bendis' All New run?

The Bendis run might make the Gary Friedrich issues of this original run look better in comparison.

Bendis dawdled so much in his run that Cyclops shows up in Hickman's Avengers with a Phoenix Egg for the universe ending Secret Wars event, without Bendis ever getting around to writing the story where Cyclops finds it.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 07, 2022, 10:48:47 PM
Ooh okay well I havent got up to the Friedrich issues yet and I remember reading the first couple of volumes of All New way back when it came out and remember it being interesting time travel stuff so I may have a looksie, see if it has a good parallel.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 07, 2022, 10:55:14 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 07, 2022, 10:48:47 PMOoh okay well I havent got up to the Friedrich issues yet and I remember reading the first couple of volumes of All New way back when it came out and remember it being interesting time travel stuff so I may have a looksie, see if it has a good parallel.

All New was certainly better than his Uncanny, though later writers make better use of his time-lost X-Men premise.

I remember the 2014 Cyclops series where Corsair takes the chance at actually being a dad to the young Cyclops being particularly good.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 07, 2022, 11:04:36 PM
Quote from: letsgobrian on June 07, 2022, 10:55:14 PMAll New was certainly better than his Uncanny, though later writers make better use of his time-lost X-Men premise.

I remember the 2014 Cyclops series where Corsair takes the chance at actually being a dad to the young Cyclops being particularly good.

Ah right okay, I didnt even know Bendis did a run on the main book, I just remember it was Avengers vs X-Men and then all new. Comic books are confusing.
Dreading reading these Friedrich issues later on now though oof.

Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 07, 2022, 11:34:40 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 07, 2022, 11:04:36 PMAh right okay, I didnt even know Bendis did a run on the main book, I just remember it was Avengers vs X-Men and then all new. Comic books are confusing.
Dreading reading these Friedrich issues later on now though oof.

My memory is of them being very boring. There's not many of them though, and you get Arnold Drake straight after.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 07, 2022, 11:50:00 PM
Well if anyone wants to read or re-read these whilst i'm reading them and share thoughts (i'm sure there are torrents or comixology or whatever for cheap) I'd be happy with that.

But to be honest the low point so far is that Decimus issue, an absolute stinker. I  am not looking forward to anymore boring shit but the novelty of the first 66 still hasnt quite worn off yet.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 08, 2022, 12:47:11 AM
Lucifer is back in 3 years, but this time in an Iron Man comic. It's from Archie Goodwin and George Tuska, and is much better than these X-Men stories. Lucifer tries to use a jerk security guard to escape his dimensional prison. It plays more like sci-fi horror that just happens to have Iron Man show up at the end.

Dominus has to wait longer until the West Coast Avengers run across him in the 80s. He has spent the intervening years making some of the lamest henchbeings, presumably to make himself seem cooler in comparison.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 08, 2022, 07:54:21 PM
Fuck both of those, I never want to read them again.

Also, if anyone would prefer to experience these reviews/whatever they are in audio form, here is the link to my podcast twitter (https://twitter.com/DanielB40036688). But I will still be doing issue by issue here if you prefer waffly text!

I literally whipped this up in the past hour having no experience talking, editing audio or just generally being entertaining or interesting so bear with me!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 11, 2022, 01:58:42 PM
22: Divided... We Suck

Nefaria just got his arse handed to him by Iron Man apparently but is now back in control of "The Maggia" (wtf?) and wants the X-Men to join him. He has a team of goons he calls his lieutenants.
Danger Room training sequence! They all learn how to work as a team great move on.
  It's VACATION TIME! Angel asks Jean out for dinner and Scott tags along like the beta cuck, pathetic third wheel he is. Bobby and Hank shoot off to meet Zelda and Vera, their girlfriends I think at this point. Zelda is a I think the pretty one and Vera is the Velma looking nerdy one. Vera has a bit of sass to her.
  X-Men are spotted around central park and each real X-Man investigates one by one, and are apprehended by the goons. Goon #1 is Plantman, looks like Green Panther and his power is plant shit, apprehending Jean. Goon #2 is Scarecrow, just a lad in a green outfit and a pumpkin head type thing who hurls crows at Angel and captures him.
  Beast get's taken out by The Porcupine, and I can barely even describe him, just a big lad in some weird straw coloured outfit who has blowdarts extending from under his hog face chin, weirdo.
  Cyclops and Iceman are then capture by the Eel, man in purple outfit with leccy powers, and The Unicorn, man in Iron Fist style outfit with a large helmet pointed upward, he can do energy bolts or some shit.
  Hilariously, when they all get down, some regular people come out of the woodwork and tie them up, just absolute nobody henchman. Quite a stepdown from Juggernaut and Magneto but ho hum.
  They all get taken to Nefaria's base and the Goon Squad are at each other's throats etc and Nefaria offers the chance for the X gang to get revenge on the society that hates them by teaming up and of course they say no, but he says one way or another they will join him (mind control perhaps?). He unveils his plan to capture the united state's capital and ransom it for.... One Hundred Million Dollars! (https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.8ce0e1f3e82fa02ca55c0c52a5dcd730?rik=auRQnwqu%2baenNA&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)

Next issue more Nefaria and gimp squad. Utter dirge.

Letters page crap and boring telling everyone how amazing everything is except for one woman who wants to see more of the X-Men's personal lives and enquires as to why they're still at school after graduation, which gets a nothing response.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on June 11, 2022, 03:21:40 PM
Does Jean ever wish there was another girl around to take some of the heat off her from the pubescent horndogs, or does she secretly like there's no competition?
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 11, 2022, 03:30:38 PM
Quote from: Dr Rock on June 11, 2022, 03:21:40 PMDoes Jean ever wish there was another girl around to take some of the heat off her from the pubescent horndogs, or does she secretly like there's no competition?

Nah her only thoughts are Scott, quite literally. She thinks Warren is a decent guy though but he's no Scott.

Bobby and Hank aren't arsed, they have Zelda and Vera and weren't even arsed before that. In fact, Hank's referring to Jean as "female" gives of incel contemptuous vibes towards Jean to me.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 11, 2022, 10:09:32 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 11, 2022, 01:58:42 PM22: Divided... We Suck

Nefaria just got his arse handed to him by Iron Man apparently but is now back in control of "The Maggia" (wtf?) and wants the X-Men to join him. He has a team of goons he calls his lieutenants.
Danger Room training sequence! They all learn how to work as a team great move on.


The Maggia is one of those things where you assume it's a Comics Code work around like "Zuvembies" (the CC-evading zombies borrowed from Robert E Howard), but according to Brian Cronin (https://www.cbr.com/marvel-comics-mafia-maggia/) it was likely done so as to not upset the Mafia.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 11, 2022, 10:18:22 PM
Right yeah that was the obvious thought but then I remembered the Punisher had the Mafia in his books right? But that must have been way later because even the Godfather had the mafia taken out of it I think.

Funny name though!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 11, 2022, 11:43:28 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 11, 2022, 10:18:22 PMRight yeah that was the obvious thought but then I remembered the Punisher had the Mafia in his books right? But that must have been way later because even the Godfather had the mafia taken out of it I think.

Funny name though!

There was a follow up article on the topic of when Marvel first used the word Mafia, and while the Punisher clearly involved the Mafia, they still avoided calling them such.

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-comics-mafia-name-maggia-cosa-nostra/

I suspect that the Maggia & Nefaria were more of Kirby idea (see Intergang in the Fourth World comics), because as bad as they are here it's nothing compared to what the Maggia become under Stan's writing in Daredevil when the Masked Marauder takes over Nefaria's operations.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 12, 2022, 12:10:11 AM
Holy shit that's interesting. First known usage of the word mafia in 2013!

Punisher is such a cool idea. Reckon I could def get into reading those old comics after I've gotten through these X issues.

But yeah guess this maggia group doesnt have much of a shelf life. But I do know Nefaria is actually one of the more effective earlier villains so it's noteworthy.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: madhair60 on June 12, 2022, 01:01:10 PM
This thread rules btw.

bgmnts, I'm a massive fucking Punisher fan. I'd highly recommend reading Punisher MAX if you don't mind blood/gore/heaviness.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 12, 2022, 01:13:59 PM
Noted. On a cursory google, that's the sort of Punisher I have in my mind - fat crime lords and lots of gruesome viscera and torture.

Just something about the idea of one family man going absolutely mental and killing every criminal he can before his time's up warms my heart.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 20, 2022, 06:54:55 PM
Issue 23: To Save a Shitty (Premise)

So, Nefaria enacts his plan, releasing particles in D.C that form into a dome, ransoming the city and the "X-Men" barge in and threaten to make the particles suck up oxygen within hours.
   The real X-Gang are chained up but escape, Jean loosens Scott's eye chain ans he blasts out etc we've seen this stuff a lot.
   They realise they arent in contact with Xavier and wonder why, cut to Xavier working on his mega secret tech project and having shut his mind off to concentrate. He gets a call from Fredericks (the govt liaison bloke he sometimes chats to) and is told the X-Men are ransoming D.C. He contacts the gang and convinces them to go along with his plan.
  The gang then agree to pick up the money and as they do so, the goon squad decide Nefaria can get to fuck and they want the money for themselves. They ambush the X-men and a big fight ensues, a three way gangbang between the gang, the goons and the army.
   Unicorn betrays everyone (he keeps referring to his "power horn" and i laugh every time because i'm a div) and tries to peg it with the money, earning the Count's ire, who puts up one of his mental images of an army to stop Unicorn in his tracks, but he quickly vanishes them. Rest of the goons get into a tangle with the real army and it's the last we see of them... for now...
   Scott gets the briefcase and gives it to Jean to get to Nefaria. As Jean goes to give the case to Nefaria, a mysterious stranger in a hood and mask immobilises his mooks and starts fucking with the Count's computers and causes him to flee with the case. He has the case in his hand and goes off to some cruise ship.
   The mysterious stranger is revealed to be... XAVIER! Yes, he can walk now thanks to his super secret project, some leg braces. Absolute game changer. He wryly remarks that the Count wont enjoy the money whilst lighting up his pipe like the smug twat he is. Cut to Nefaria with the briefcase in his hand as he is accosted by a battered Unicorn, to whom a suggests sharing the money. As they are about to open the case, it disappears!
   Turns out Xavier used Nefaria's own tech against him and the briefcase was a mental image. So how the fuck was he able to carry it all the way to the ship then? Furthermore, why did Xavier have the gang basically just ransom Washington D.C when they could have fought and captured the goons? Another non sensical bit of bollocks here. Oh and by the way Jean gets a letter at the very end and turns out she has to leave the team OH NOOOOO.

Next up: The Locust (sounds like a fucking winner doesnt he?)

Letters page had one letter slagging off X-Men being pampered and being saved multiple times in issues, to which she's not wrong. She also slags off how they treat Captn America and the way I guess the Avengers, saying if she wants to read a Spidey style mag she'll buy a spidey style mag. Love the negative letters way more than positive ones.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on June 20, 2022, 10:40:42 PM
Quick question (sorry if you already mentioned it!). Has what Summers and McCoy are talking about happened in the issues you've read so far, specifically the bit about learning the colours?

(https://i.ibb.co/68YTr9Y/b-N8-LR0l-Voff-P95-Idy-Jn-Tl8f-Fy5-BKH2v-LZkw-Z7-NMTYn3uzl7-Hv-Ag35-ACa-Pmy-Zzr-XFM16-R3-Aia-If-TPHM.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/5BzBDn2/l5ta-FJe-IJOuw-v-Gg-HNqn-ANYS9-VHPv-Kwjf-Shl-BSOg-Su-QGk4-Y1dl-Ca-Sy-ILe4640j-W5j-HP7h-Z-c-Mim-HHXPG.jpg)
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 21, 2022, 09:37:12 AM
Ooooh no not yet at least, unless that's passed me by. Don't think I've reached El Tigre yet.

I'll have a look out for that in the subsequent issues.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on June 21, 2022, 10:13:51 AM
That's from Morrison's New X-Men run so it'll almost certainly have happened. He's very fond of the 'everything happened and everything matters' approach to continuity.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 21, 2022, 01:49:40 PM
Issue 24: Plague of Nocunts

   So Jean is off to colleague, and rightfully so, why the other lads havent gone yet is bizarre. Her leaving gift is a corsage, how lovely. She leaves with Warren and Cyke giving her a lift and all three are pining after each other in thought bubbles. Jean is met at the door by Ted Roberts, who quickly moves in and gets a date with her, sharing a "big orange drink". Cyclops looks on despairingly and its funny.
   Meanwhile, mad man Locust has a magno ray that can make giant insects, and he destroys a local farm. X-Men - sans Jean - investigate in their X-Copter and get into a tangle with them and the Locust sees them and swears to destroy them or whatever.
   A few days later, Jean is having a drink with Ted when an old disgraced professor at the uni walks by, a Dr. Hopper. Dr Hopper now works at Ray Chemicals developing pesticides and of course obviously he's the Locust. He is tired of being looked over and his plan is to unleash these giant insects and then destroy them, gaining the plaudits. Mental scientist stuff.
   Jean rejoins the X-Men as it is the weekend and Xavier goes to Ray Chemicals and mentally probes Hopper's equipment and sees a map of the US with Xs marked on it. Hopper takes his mobile lab to one of these spots and then a big fight ensues. Locust escapes and is greeted by a man dressed as a 19th century gentleman who tries to convince him to do the right thing and help humanity. Yes, it's Xavier walking again wearing a ridiculous disguise, it gave me quite a chuckle. Locust tells him to fuck off and Jean tangles his antennae on his costume together, confusing his giant beetle monsters into attacking him.
    Locust pegs it into his mobile disco and the beetles tumble it over a cliff, just being rescued by Angel. Locust then learns the error of his ways and turns himself in. But what if he had an army? Not even the X-Men could stop that!! Will we see him again asks one of the gang? I certainly hope not.

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on June 21, 2022, 10:13:51 AMThat's from Morrison's New X-Men run so it'll almost certainly have happened. He's very fond of the 'everything happened and everything matters' approach to continuity.

Next up: El Tigre! Let's see if we can find whatever Morrison is referencing shall we?

We get a letter from Laos today, a letter asking how Angel kept his wings hidden and an absolutely baffling letter about Communist villains and the application of knowledge.

Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 21, 2022, 07:29:28 PM
Issue 25: Le Tigre

   The gang rescue kids from an orphanage - Xavier pines about his legs not working (in the previous issue he is referred to in narration as an "invalid" wtf) - and Jean goes back to real school. She meets Ted Roberts at the door, the weirdo, and thinks he is "a dear". Cyclops gets all bitter like a beta cuck loser and Legend Angel just shrugs and goes "oh well plenty more fish in the sea".
   Meanwhile, in Central America, a bastard of a gem hunter named Juan Meroz, who has given himself the sobriquet El Tigre (classic dick move), is haranguing his helpers to dig for some precious loot and being an all round scummer. He finds the gold and also half of a gem. It pulsates in his hand and gives him weird powers like mind control and sensing danger and he learns it's one half of the gem of the ancient king Kulkucan. He goes off to Manhattan to find the other half.
   Cerebro goes off but it can't get a clear shot of the threat (it's hand waved that it can also detect things that are close to mutants whatever that means) and the gang sans Jean go out into Manhattan and keep bumbping into El Tigre and his goons but don't know who he is. Cyclops has yet another "bumps into someone, glasses come off and they try to lynch him" moment (possibly the fourth or fifth so far?) and he runs back to the hotel. They see on the tv a riot started in a nightclub and see El Tigre and pals. They follow him to a museum and three of the x-men get taken out by a rope, a blowdart and bola. Fucking christ they are shit.
    Cyclops confronts El Tigre but he uses a guard to hold cyke hostage and gets the other half of the gem, harnassing the power of KUKULCAN!

Next up: umm... Holocaust...

Letters are boring, one letter slags off them getting a bit of latin wrong. Beast says "tempus fugits" when of course it should be "tempus fugit" jesus christ Stan.

Nothing about coloured mooks or watercolours yet @Magnum Valentino but perhaps in this next issue!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on June 21, 2022, 07:43:30 PM
I don't trust this Ted Rogers fellow.

The use of 'holocaust' in 60s Marvel comics is ok because the Holocaust didn't get widely refereed to as the Holocaust til the late 70s.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 21, 2022, 07:52:03 PM
Quote from: Dr Rock on June 21, 2022, 07:43:30 PMI don't trust this Ted Rogers fellow.

The use of 'holocaust' in 60s Marvel comics is ok because the Holocaust didn't get widely refereed to as the Holocaust til the late 70s.

Oh Ted is guaranteed to be a bit rum, and I'm sure he'll be a villain within 3 issues. Although now i'll associate him with dusty bin which is funny.

Ah well alright then, still a bit of a shock to the system seeing HOLOCAUST blasted on a comic book front cover.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 21, 2022, 09:58:37 PM
Locust had a very lacklustre villain career. He's back in 9 years when he shows up in Incredible Hulk #194, where we get to meet his daughter & son-in-law. It's essentially a soap-opera plot of a dad mad at his daughter's choice in husband so he unleashes giant insects on their farm.

It's then 14 years until he shows up in X-Factor #52, which I haven't got to yet on my read through of that title.

And that's it!

I thought he had appeared more, but I was getting him mixed up with Humbug, a villain who was designed to be a comedic loser, rather than falling into it like Locust.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 21, 2022, 10:19:02 PM
So I take it he doesn't do time then?

Seems like the kind of person who'd unleash giant insects if he got a large MOT bill.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on June 22, 2022, 10:21:41 AM
QuoteXavier pines about his legs not working (in the previous issue he is referred to in narration as an "invalid" wtf)
See also the angst about Don Blake needing a cane over in Thor at the time.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: dontpaintyourteeth on June 22, 2022, 10:23:21 AM
Am I doing X-Men wrong if the only thing I've ever read is Grant Morrison's New X-Men run? Which I thought was okay, the big reveal in the middle of it all was a bit daft though.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on June 22, 2022, 11:02:11 AM
I've read the first ten issues, then all of Uncanny X-Men from when Claremont started until he left, New X-Men til Grant left, Astonishing X-Men til Whedon and Cassaday left and the first year or so of the Bendis titles.

Of that, I'd recommend the first few years of Claremont's stuff (anyone would) and the Whedon run is really run and a quick read.

The thing that lets Morrison's run down is that the characters keep pointing out that superhero violence is stupid and pointless. Once is enough but after a while it gets a bit preachy, even though I do agree that the endless scrapping tends to wear thing quickly.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: dontpaintyourteeth on June 22, 2022, 11:10:01 AM
Ah, thanks! I imagined Claremont was probably considered the top one. I think I have the Dark Phoenix trade somewhere actually but I never read it because I assumed it was much better if you read all the stuff leading up to it as well. Perhaps I should.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on June 22, 2022, 11:28:08 AM
Quote from: dontpaintyourteeth on June 22, 2022, 11:10:01 AMAh, thanks! I imagined Claremont was probably considered the top one. I think I have the Dark Phoenix trade somewhere actually but I never read it because I assumed it was much better if you read all the stuff leading up to it as well. Perhaps I should.

It is much better if you read everything leading up to it. Plus the Byrne/Claremeont stuff is all good (possible a couple of duffer issues). The Sideshow Wolverine (and the gang) leading into the Magneto issue, Alpha Flight introduction, Logan getting gradually hairier with every issue.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2022, 11:45:30 AM
Yes, plus you get to see Count Nefaria's finest hour! The only real run i've done is from Giant Sized up to Dark Phoenix and maybe a bit past that. Seminal I presume. If I recall its actually set up over about 30 issues isnt it? The only problem is if you dont like space opera stuff, and the space opera stuff with the Shi'ar (were they in it? need to re-read) and all that can be intimidating.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2022, 05:45:58 PM
Oh and I have said before but considering i'm near the end I want to show how lovely this cover is of the omnibus.

(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1348457550l/3834530._SY475_.jpg)

Probably is naff but I love that realistic style of a highly cartoonish old cover. It would be great if they could reprint it all with that style of cover art.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Magnum Valentino on June 22, 2022, 06:33:58 PM
Alex Ross has done a couple of full-length comics and I don't think his style works for storytelling, but it's brilliant for covers, I agree.

I'm after watching X-Men First Class and Fassbender dropping his accent just to talk like he's from the free state for the last twenty minutes or so of the film is still really, really funny.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 22, 2022, 08:03:39 PM
Literally all I remember from that film is the Wolverine cameo.

I'm still interested to organically come across that Xavier/Magneto relationship in the comics. Obviously not there in silver age but we'll see.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on June 23, 2022, 09:38:08 AM
Magneto doesn't really begin to get that development until the Claremont era (issue 150 has his first big turning point).

You don't even see him without his helmet until the late Silver Age.
Spoiler alert
The first time has a nice twist that doesn't have the same impact in retrospect, when a silver-haired older man who we've seen for most of the issue finally reveals himself to be guess who.
[close]
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 23, 2022, 11:45:08 AM
Quote from: Magnum Valentino on June 22, 2022, 06:33:58 PMAlex Ross has done a couple of full-length comics and I don't think his style works for storytelling, but it's brilliant for covers, I agree.

I'm after watching X-Men First Class and Fassbender dropping his accent just to talk like he's from the free state for the last twenty minutes or so of the film is still really, really funny.

I'm curious about Ross's new FF book, FULL CIRCLE, due in the summer. I was in the boat that he'd gotten stale for a while in 00s. Too much of his art looking like posed models.

But his recent run of covers on Immortal Hulk and elsewhere have broken through that, while still using that very posed approach on covers where it's actually useful, like on his Ultraman work.

The Full Circle art though has a different colouring approach and looks wonderfully lurid in the preview pages.

Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 26, 2022, 10:56:43 AM
#26: It's still okay to casually say Holocaust.

So El Tigre now has the amulet of Kalcucan or whatever it's called and he shoots off back to the Mayan ruins where he found the first piece. He does this buy using a solar panel thing around him and h- fuck it I had no clue he just got there quicksharp. He realises the power of the amulet is linked to a giant serpent monument in the ruins and it absorbs solar energy, so he recreates the ruins into a town replete with pyramid and roads and new villagers flock to the call of mighty Kulkookan.
  Meanwhile, Jean gets a call from Xavier asking if she can check out some books from the metro library on pre-Colombian americas. Jean wonders why he doesnt telepathically contact her and I wondered too, guess she's out of the loop now, get fucked Marvel Girl! Jeanie is approached by Ted Rogers in the library with his bessie mate Calvin Rankin, i.e THE MIMIC! Remember this cunt? So he eyes her up and even says don't I know you from somewhere but he was mindraped don't forget so he doesn't know. He vows to not stop til he finds out though. Yes!
   Jean gives books to X, X finds out what he needs and off the gang jet to fight Kucoocan. Finally, a bit of interpersonal stuff as Scott senses Jean might like him back and Angel senses Scott likes Jean and it's reciprocated and he is pissed off at this - despite seemingly moving on in the previous issue fucksake - and is snippy with Scott. Constantly giving him dickish one liners and jibes about being a little whiny fuck all the time crying about his optic beam. Okay I made that up but it was cathartic.
   They immediately fall into a stupid trap - set by INDIANS no less - and escape easy. Cyke's eye beam smashes through the hard earth and they surprise them and trap them (questions on this later). So they assault Qukookuns base and Hank and Bobby quickly figure out that they need to ice up the serpents head to stop it absorbing solar energy (is that how physics works?) and get Kukkoocans to expend his energy so they ask Angel to fly around him. They refer to him as a "feathered fuehrer" which I thought was a very odd choice of words considering the Holocaust title.
   Meanwhile, Cyclops sneaks round the back and loads up his full force blast about to hit Culkin in the back, but his sixth sense sees it coming and he ducks, so Angel gets a full blast of Cyke's optic beam. I obviously burst out laughing because fuck me that is really funny. Doesn't matter though because the serpent is iced up and Culkookan is drained, so in one desperate attempt he causes a huge earthquake and accidentally sinks the thing. Silly boy. Hank and Bobby quickly round him up and see Scott tending to Angel and are like wtf? Angel blurts out Scott did it on purpose because they both love Jean! Whoa! Scott thinks to himself if maybe he did subconsciously do it and he walks off caryying Angel in his arms.
  So, basic love triangle stuff but hey we have some actual drama! Whoooo! About Cyke's power though, he constantly cries about how dangerous he and thats why he can never be with Jean blah blah but it seems his full force blast is only enough to knock Angel unconscious. Yet it's also strong enough to leave huge craters in the earth and smash through concrete pavements. Fucking baffling but who cares I suppose. An interesting direction to go would be to say write Cyclops as just using the fear of his power as an excuse as he is afraid of being rejected by Jean or something. I'd find that interesting myself but i know that wont happen.
  Hopefully Jean get's some hot 3-2-1 action with Ted anyway.

Next up: Return of the Mimic fucking YES!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 27, 2022, 12:46:54 PM
27: Remember the Mimic?

Yeah, Mimic is back! And we're starting in media res with a fight! Mimic wipes the floor with the gang but he wanders off. Weirdly he can use Xavier's power, so could just mind rape all of them but fuck it fighting is fun. How does Mimic even have his memory and powers back after his last appearance? Well..
  ...sometime earlier, Angel harbours no ill will towards Scott but he is wrecked, he's told his wing ligaments and tendons are still sore and if he doesn't rest he may never fly again, so he's just recuperating. Jean is at sports day on campus and cheering on Ted Rogers. He is really good at running and jumping. I am unsure but I think they're actually going out, and she seems happy so that's nice. Ted mentions his brother Ralph as a source of competitive envy and insecurity ooooh. A random explosion happens in the chemistry building and Cal Rankin staggers out, recognising Jean and remembering everything. Seriously, that's all you're getting.
  Meanwhile, some mad lad The Puppet Master - who looks weirdly like Xavier but wearing a purple dildo suit - is working on his next puppet (using "radioactive clay) and hating the Fantastic Four! His puppet is Xavier, of whom he learnt of through the Mad Thinker in an earlier FF issue and I have no fucking clue what any of this means, but the X-Men are now embedded in the over-arcing Marvel Universe.
  However, Xavier is too strong. Cut to Xavier going "whoa, somebody tried to control my mind, oh well no time to dwell on it now", like a baller. Yet Xavier is nervous and so travels - in his astral form - to Central Europe to recruit our old friends Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, they say "once, our fondest dream to be X-Men but Avengers we are" or something, which doesn't ring very true to be honest. They never liked the X-Men at all, they just hated Magneto.
  Bobby and Hank are double dating with Zelda and Vera again and a bank robbery happens and the guys feel the need to change and stop it. 100% true, my initial thought was hang on just let Spider-Man deal with it, it's NYC and that's his domain. One panel later, Spidey shows up webbing the robbers and Hank n Bobby try to recruit him to the x-men, and he tells them to fuck off pretty quickly. Nobody wants any part of these no marks at all, and who can blame them?
  They then all go to Jean's campus to pick up Jean and try to recruit Johnny Storm but Human Torch is off abroad somewhere so Cal Rankin goes with them instead. Puppet Master just HAPPENS to be scanning metro uni at that moment and makes a Mimic puppet.
  We get a costume change, i.e a red belt over the uniform (jesus christ), and Xavier comes in to announce that Mimic is now leader of the team and I have no idea why. Puppet Master kicks in and we are back where we were. FIGHT!
  The gang fly to Puppet Master's general whereabouts and Cal follows them, and Angel is in tow in his car! Xavier implores him but fuck that he's a hero, "perhaps the most heroic of them all". Funnily enough he says "we used to think he was a frivolous, over indulged son" when in reality I dont remember that aspect of his character or interaction with the team reflecting that at all. It's good they're trying but you can't just retroactively characterise someone can you??
  So anyway, they fight a big clay monster, X-Men and Cal Rankin do the whole "no! you have to fight it!" thing and Angel sneaks up behind Puppet Master and crushes the clay puppet and all is well. Well, except the existential despair that Cal feels at the end of the issue, lamenting that he has no place in society. Ha!

So yeah, any of that potential interpersonal stuff was dashed in the water straight away. We could have gotten a few issues of a Scott and Angel rivalry. Hope Jean just starts shagging Ted fuck it it seems best for her. Bobby and Hank have nothing, absolutely nothing, beyond the comedy duo dynamic, although I swear to god Beast is autistic or aspergic or what. If he refers to a woman as "female" again I'm going to write a letter to Marvel.

One letter rightfully points out that Beast's use of "tete-a-tete" means literally head to head, not heart to heart, as they wrote in the issue. Even if it means it figuratively. So yeah fuck you Roy Thomas!

Another letter thinks Jean shouldn't go to college and date "that creep" Ted Rogers and get all up in her dusty bin.
Clearly some frustrated nerds here but I suppose that is the majority of the audience so fair fucks to them for at least being honest.
One heartwarming letter from a Barbara Chung mentions loving the X-Men as being the only woman in her fencing team made her feel like one of the guys and a true equal. That was quite nice.  Although she is rightfully irritated at how shit a character Jean Grey is. Quite funny how later on Jean will become one of the most powerful things in the universe and have to deal with that power and darkness and be quite interesting whereas now she's just a 60s lady cheering on a man at the track meet.

Next up: Wail of the Banshee!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on June 27, 2022, 01:17:13 PM
QuoteMeanwhile, some mad lad The Puppet Master - who looks weirdly like Xavier but wearing a purple dildo suit - is working on his next puppet (using "radioactive clay) and hating the Fantastic Four! His puppet is Xavier, of whom he learnt of through the Mad Thinker in an earlier FF issue and I have no fucking clue what any of this means, but the X-Men are now embedded in the over-arcing Marvel Universe.
Puppet Master does look kind of like Xavier, except he's often drawn with wide-open eyes and a big grin to make him look like a puppet himself. The Mad Thinker is your standard-issue mad scientist whose gimmick is predicting the exact second thing are going to happen. Both mainly Fantastic Four villains, as you might expect.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 27, 2022, 01:37:27 PM
Yeah I'm wondering if I've needed to be reading FF or Avengers or something to keep up. Angel made a reference to Hawkeye in the previous issue and had no clue what he was on about.

The Mad Thinker's power is both really shit and really cool.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on June 27, 2022, 01:45:59 PM
You shouldn't do — heavy crossovers only begin in about the late 80s, just figuring that this is a thing from some other book will generally be fine for a long time yet.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 27, 2022, 03:32:12 PM
Issue 28: Mimic Rules

  So we open with a heist from the eponymous Banshee, a dastardly flying mutant who can sort of screech through the air with his sonic power and it pierces people's eardrums putting them into a hypnotic state. He goes to a gallery and nicks a "Gaelic Landscape" which Stan says referring to the Scottish Highlands. Now i'd associate anything Gaelic beyond the language as Irish but there we are i'm probably wrong.
  Meanwhile, the gang are testing Cal Rankin's powers as Xavier has mentally increased the range of them before they dissipate. Cal ignores X's warnings and almost get's himself killed because he gives no fucks. This leads to Cyke getting arsey and one of the best bits of dialogue in this entire run so far:

(https://serving.photos.photobox.com/959053976be59f391fa4b79441b86c1ee51af4feedaaaac29abbfe79853fff251a17ccef.jpg)

  Anyway Mimic has decided to stay with the x-men for the foreseeable to help with the lingering threat that Xavier has sensed for a while, since Puppet Master at least. Banshee heads back to his hideout and he is teamed up with a fat purple lad named Ogre who is working for an organisation called Factor Three, who know about the x-men and plans to kidnap the professor. He needs Banshee to do this. Banshee nips out again for some baccy and is spotted by a half deaf janitor who locks him in but Banshee uses his screech to bust out.
  This news bursts out on the radio as Jean and Ted are having a nice sit down by a tree on campus. Ted is reading a letter from home and is brooding about his brother. Ted somehow knows there is more to this story than a simple robbery, interesting.
  So Banshee and Ogre get in their pod thing and go off to fight the X-men whilst they prepare by putting in ear shields and monitoring Cerebro. It goes apeshit and BAM! Banshee gives them all an earful. Ogre kidnaps the prof but Jean shows up and stops him. They fight but then hilariously Ogre is tripped up by a tied and prone Xavier and he scarpers. He and Banshee have a tiff when they get back and plan a second assault.
  The gang get new and improved ear wax shield things and they manage to capture Banshee thanks to Mimic using Banshee's power and they dump him in a gravity and air free tank with enough oxygen to breathe. Scott goes to fetch some equipment and notices a heavy oaken door that has been locked since they came back from their last holiday. Hmmm...
  Ogre bundles in and tries to kill Banshee but is stopped and then Mimic fucks up Ogre whilst Banshee is freed from his tank by Xavier. Banshee frees himself and reveals he was only working with Ogre due to the headband he put on him that would kill him by remote control, and the fight with Mimic broke that control. So he's not evil but he did steal a priceless painting and some imported tobacco just for the lols. And yeah Mimic saved the day, go Mimic!

   The art looks terrible here by the way, Banshee looks like an actual human chimp and the faces on the X-Men look weird, their chins especially.

Some decent letters, two from women. One saying they like Jean going off to college, one saying they don't. One letter saying how cringe it is that they are called the X-Men despite Jean Grey (which yeah fair enough it's shocking really) being in it and can they call it X-People or something. I think X-Team would have worked but fuck knows.

Next up: The Super Adaptoid (sigh)
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dr Rock on June 27, 2022, 05:29:45 PM
QuoteTed is reading a letter from home and is brooding about his brother. Ted somehow knows there is more to this story than a simple robbery, interesting.

'I have four wheels, and I can go far. You fill me with gas. Could I be a car?"
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 27, 2022, 09:26:49 PM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 27, 2022, 03:32:12 PMThe art looks terrible here by the way, Banshee looks like an actual human chimp and the faces on the X-Men look weird, their chins especially.

Banshee is drawn like an anti-Irish caricature. Good thread here on the "simian shelf" https://mobile.twitter.com/ClaremontRun/status/1283368107415941121
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 27, 2022, 09:34:17 PM
Fuck oooooff that's mental! Is he even portrayed as Irish in that first issue? I must have skimmed it too much and missed it. Obviously the actual banshee and the painting are clues but it didn't explicitly state anything.

Still, jesus christ Werner!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: letsgobrian on June 28, 2022, 11:01:05 AM
Quote from: bgmnts on June 27, 2022, 09:34:17 PMFuck oooooff that's mental! Is he even portrayed as Irish in that first issue? I must have skimmed it too much and missed it. Obviously the actual banshee and the painting are clues but it didn't explicitly state anything.

Still, jesus christ Werner!

It was more surprising to see former Generation X mutant Skin show up sporting the simian shelf in an issue of Sabretooth from this year.

As the rest of the comic has its heart in the right place, I'm guessing Leonard Kirk referenced his earliest appearances from before someone presumably had had a word with Chris Bachalo.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
29: The Super Adaptoid (sigh)

  So the gang are skating in the frozen lake and having a right laugh. Rankin is being his usual arsehole self but everyone is having fun. Fittingly, Iceman can't skate on ice. Cyclops does his usual loner "my eyes make me a danger to everyone especially my beloved Jean" act but this time it isn't just an errant thought, stuff actually happens. He wanders off and ruminates and he tells us that he subconsciously lowered the blast that hurt Angel in a previous issue, so he has control over it now somewhat. He takes off his glasses and his beams do not shoot through his eyelids, so progress! However he loses control and legit lashes out in anger, letting out a massive beam that almost causes his death in a mini avalanche or whatever.
   This pours into the Super Adaptoid's lair underground. The Adaptoid seemingly is a robot thing built to destroy captain america and has all the powers of the avengers. To me he just looks like a green captain america with a silly mask and love heart wings but there we are. He leaves his cave as Scott's mini avalanche pours into it and seeks to turn the world into his domain, replete with little robot servants.
   Everyone heads back except for Iceman who wants to practice his skating, but immediately just ices up and has a great time pirouetting and twirling around. He gets accosted by the Adaptoid and freezes him.  Interestingly, these comics seem to always reference my internal thoughts after I have had them. I spent a good few pages really thinking about Iceman and Angel and Beast etc and it is hard to forget they are not humans, these are a different species. You get the sense of this when Angel talks about flying and Iceman is in his ice form. I think this is the natural state and is pleasurable to them. You just assume they are basically us but with cool powers but they are not. Adaptoid immediately highlights my thoughts by thinking "another mortal human with superpowers" in reference to Iceman, and I thought "well is he?".
   Anyway, Iceman tries to warn the crew but they have none of it and head to the danger room to practice. Mimic is an arsehole and starts a fight again, leading to Xavier expelling him from the school.
    Adaptoid then shows up and wrecks the X-Men, taking them out with one of his Hawkeye gas-arrows that he comically throws at them. Mimic then returns and they have a knock-down fight after he tries to submit to Adaptoid's thralldom but then quickly decides against it. They fight blah blah and then Mimic uses Xavier's telepathy to suggest the idea of absorbing his powers, which causes Adaptoid to get some form of weird feedback, because Rankin's powers are artificial I guess? I don't understand why Adaptoid can harness Capt America's powers then because he is just injected with serum isn't he? Fuck knows.
   Anyway, Adaptoid falls into a river and loses his power (but it's not the last you've seen of him!) and Cal Rankin is saved by Angel. Cal then says Mimic is gone for good but Cal is back. Next issue shows Mimic not on the cover so i'm a bit gutted as he had the piece of dialogue in the entire book so far and he adds SOME tension to this otherwise harmonious team.

Next up: Warlock!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: Dayraven on June 30, 2022, 12:05:03 PM
QuoteNext up: Warlock!
The caption should go on to say "Not either of the good Warlocks, though."
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 12:25:54 PM
Quote from: Dayraven on June 30, 2022, 12:05:03 PMThe caption should go on to say "Not either of the good Warlocks, though."

Yeah he looks really crap to be honest but let's see!
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 12:53:20 PM
Oh and shit! Whatever is behind that giant oaken door is Xavier's 'greatest failure'. So i'm expecting great things for that reveal. I'm expecting it to be a naff robot but i'm praying it is basically the bloke from Robocop who get's drenched in acid and half melts.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 01:39:08 PM
30: Not even the best Warlock in the Beatles

  Straight into it, first page they all get sucked into a void, Jean and Xavier being pulled out by a large hand with Angel close behind. Jean get's hypnotized by this lad Warlock who takes her and Xavier on a flying horseride. Angel managed to escape the void and is flying behind them. Warlock spares Angel because he's a laugh and all that fuck knows.
  Warlock explains that he is Merlin the Wizard of Arthurian legend and he was in a coma for millenia only to wake up and fight Thor. He then feigns another coma and is now residing in a medieval style fortress with goons with modern weapons. His plan is to revert life back to medieval times so he can control the world.
   Xavier pretends to be knackered and pass out and then pulls the other three out of the "negative space" and then big fights happen. Fights happen until Jean breaks out of her spell and they get the Warlock to be mind raped by Xavier.

The End.

Sorry but this was a waste of my time dogshit crap.

Up next: fucking COBALT MAN.
Title: Re: X-Men discussion thread
Post by: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 02:25:39 PM
Issue 31: The fucking Cobalt Man

   Okay so Danger Room sequence and, say it together now, vacation! Well, weekend off but same thing, Xavier needs time off to work on his secret xperiments. Hank and Bobby double date as per, Warren wants to ride off in his Mustang and Scott as always wants to stay in and help the professor. Professor, presumably to sick to death of Cyclops, tells him to deliver Jean some books. Warren gives him a lift and they decide to let Jean choose between them... TODAY!
   Jean is with Ted Rogers and they both meet Ted's brother Ralph, they immediately start getting competitive and get into a pole vaulting contest, leading to Ralph donking his head on a pole like a div. Ralph used to work under Anthony Stark and his experiments involved cobalt! Dun dun duuuuuun!
   Cyclops and Angel arrive and Ralph invites them all to his lab. Angel, being a young handsome incredibly wealthy playboy, immediately fucks off and gets over Jean again, realising there are so many fish in his sea it's laughable.
   Bobby and Hank are doing double dating things and Bernard the Poet puts some moves on Zelda. Angel arrives at a new place called the Monkee's Paw and the teeny boppers are all there bopping away to I'm a Believer. Angel then meets Candy Sothern, his childhood sweetheart and they hit it off and get a drink.
   Cyke, Jean, Ted and Ralph are all hanging out and Ralph shows Ted his Cobalt Man costume, the caveat to wearing it being after two hours it enters critical mass and will turn into a radioactive Cobalt bomb. I've seen and written the word cobalt more times than I will in my life again. So Ralph puts the costume on and because of his earlier knock he goes mental and starts wishing death on Stark and goes on a rampage. He fights and traps Cyke and Jean.
   Cyke reaches out to Xavier who telepathically contacts the gang. Angel arranges a date with Candy Sothern tomorrow morning and she agrees, get in there Warren boy. Hank and Bobby fuck off Zelda and Vera for the umpteenth time and i'm surprised they're still around to be honest.
   Cyke and Jean escape and Ted regains his composure and drives to Stark HQ in a van, with the two secretly in the back, to confront his brother. The other three arrive at the same time and fight happens. Fight happens until Iceman ices up the chest plate and Cyclops blasts it, melting the ice and seeping water through any gaps in the armor, short circuiting it.
   Angel saves Cobalt Man from falling in the river and drowning and Ralph reflects that the Iron Man costume is too much power for some people to handle. Ted hints at the end that he sees through Jeans costume, because fucking OF COURSE he does jesus christ.

Next up: JUGGERNAUT FUCKING YESSSS

Okay so this endeth the first book, 31 issues. It's been a fair old slog. The Stan issues were really silly but had a certain charm about them, they overused the same villains but also introduced some really cool, iconic ones. The interpersonal relationships have taken an absolute age to develop and to be honest only really Cyclops has had a fair whack at character development. Only one of the x gang has had an origin story and I think Iceman had that one issue where he saved the day but I dont know it's a trudge.

I'm hoping the next half get better but not holding my breath. I will say I miss Stan Lee ('kin 'ell) and i'm REALLY looking forward to getting this silver age shite behind me to read some genuinely good comics stories.