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March 28, 2024, 10:35:03 PM

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Star Trek Picard S2

Started by Malcy, June 16, 2021, 06:50:29 PM

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JamesTC

Quote from: kalowski on March 25, 2022, 10:39:03 PM
Spoiler alert
Why is Guinan young? She wasn't young in Time's Arrow which is set 200 years before this
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Spoiler alert
I guess she can make herself look younger as well as older. Wouldn't be surprised if that was why they added the line in Episode 1. Really don't see the point in bringing Whoopi back and then recasting her anyway as the explanation would have allowed her to appear in the past looking older as well. Feels a bit disrespectful.

The future that led to the encounter in the past in Time's Arrow hasn't happened, so I suppose that is why Guinan doesn't recognise Picard. Although I can't see a story reason why she needed to not know who Picard was other than padding.

She worked in 10 Forward before she worked in Ten Forward. Amazing that 10 Forward looks so similar 400 years later.
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Mr Trumpet

Whoopi Goldberg was 36(!) when she filmed Time's Arrow. Ito Aghayere is 33.


kalowski

Like I said before it's great and awful at the same time.

JamesTC

Quote from: JamesTC on March 25, 2022, 10:55:34 PM
Spoiler alert
The future that led to the encounter in the past in Time's Arrow hasn't happened, so I suppose that is why Guinan doesn't recognise Picard. Although I can't see a story reason why she needed to not know who Picard was other than padding.

[close]

Scratch that. The Voyage Home still happened in the past, so no reason Time's Arrow shouldn't have too.

grainger

Wait, are they implying that Guinan named Ten Forward on the Enterprise-D? It's called that because it's at the front of Deck 10, not because a civilian came on board and named it after a bar she used to own.

OK, they never said why it was called Ten Forward on screen, so I guess one could argue it isn't canon and can therefore be overriden by something subsequently seen on screen. Not that that stops them anyway, I suppose, and maybe not should it. But it's still shit.

Chairman Yang

I'm just reading along for a laugh and you seem to be implying there's a young Guinan who has a bar called 10 Forward who then serves on the Enterprise in the same bar then returns to Earth in order to meet Picard as an old, different person in a previous episode?

Is that about the size of it?

Sherman Krank

Quote from: JamesTC on March 25, 2022, 10:55:34 PM
Spoiler alert
The future that led to the encounter in the past in Time's Arrow hasn't happened, so I suppose that is why Guinan doesn't recognise Picard. Although I can't see a story reason why she needed to not know who Picard was other than padding.

She worked in 10 Forward before she worked in Ten Forward. Amazing that 10 Forward looks so similar 400 years later.
[close]

Spoiler alert
But the events of Times Arrow have happened as they've gone back to just before the timeline is changed. Unless I'm missing something and the show was already in an alternate timeline before it went all Nazi.
My theory is that Guinan doesn't recognise Picard because this show is being made by useless twats who are rubbish at doing telly.
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Spoiler alert
Why all the spoiler tags? I doubt this dog's egg of a show could be spoiled anymore than it is just by watching it.
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JamesTC

Quote from: Sherman Krank on March 26, 2022, 02:43:27 AMBut the events of Times Arrow have happened as they've gone back to just before the timeline is changed. Unless I'm missing something and the show was already in an alternate timeline before it went all Nazi.

But at the moment, the future is the evil one. They need to fix the timeline to make it the good one. But doing so would also presumably change the past.

Basically, it doesn't work. Even if we assume that Picard/Data didn't go back in time in Time's Arrow due to the evil future, that still doesn't work because of the bloke on the bus with the boombox who got attacked by Spock shouldn't have happened either.

Quote from: Chairman Yang on March 26, 2022, 01:46:10 AMI'm just reading along for a laugh and you seem to be implying there's a young Guinan who has a bar called 10 Forward who then serves on the Enterprise in the same bar then returns to Earth in order to meet Picard as an old, different person in a previous episode?

Is that about the size of it?

Yeah. She also fails to recognise Picard in 2024 despite meeting him in 1893.

Natnar

I'm guessing they'll just explain away the whole Guinan age thing by saying that she can choose to reverse her bodies ageing process since she can also choose to let herself grow old if she likes.

Still not sure what's going on with Q. Will it turn out that all Q's do have a limited lifespan or something?


olliebean

Quote from: Deanjam on March 25, 2022, 02:41:14 PMOccasionally I remember this at random times and just laugh. Do we reckon it was done so that they can just recast the part when Stewart is gone?

Now that we've got watchers, I'm assuming they've already filmed the scene with Picard on his deathbed croaking "The moment has been prepared for..."

Sherman Krank

#191
Quote from: JamesTC on March 26, 2022, 07:05:24 AMBut at the moment, the future is the evil one. They need to fix the timeline to make it the good one. But doing so would also presumably change the past.
In the scene in the ruined chateau where the number 15 keeps coming up they say something along the lines of 'Today's the 12th so we've got 3 days to stop Q from doing whatever he's going to do to change the timeline'.
So they're not there to 'fix' something, they're there to stop it from happening and if it hasn't happened yet then they can't be in the evil future timeline because from their current perspective the thing that creates the evil future hasn't happened.

JamesTC

Quote from: Sherman Krank on March 26, 2022, 12:22:26 PMIn the scene in the ruined chateau where the number 15 keeps coming up they say something along the lines of 'Today's the 12th so we've got 3 days to stop Q from doing whatever he's going to do to change the timeline'.
So they're not there to 'fix' something, they're there to stop it from happening and if it hasn't happened yet then they can't be in the evil future because from their current perspective the thing that creates the evil future hasn't yet happened.

But if the past from Time'a Arrow hasn't happened yet then the good future hasn't. But the future that had Kirk and Spock in the past has happened. So it doesn't make sense either way. It all comes about because they were too busy providing a pithy explanation for an accent that they've created a massive gaping continuity error that should have been obvious with one look at Memory Alpha.

If they do not fix the thing then the bad future happens. So until they definitively fix it, presumably it is still the bad future.

Sherman Krank

Imagine taking your car to a local tyre place and asking them to fix a puncture and when the guy says 'Where's the puncture?' you say 'Oh it's not going to happen for 3 days but I want you to fix it now so I don't have to worry about it'.

If they'd arrived just after Q had done the thing then it would have made sense that Guinan didn't know Picard but they arrived just before so it doesn't as the future hasn't been changed yet.


This is what happens when you get SciFi shows written and produced by people like Chabon who don't really like or get SciFi and would much rather be doing their own stuff but having Star Trek on the old CV will open doors so whatever.

JamesTC


Mr Trumpet

Always fun to see nerds get angry about how a conceptionally impossible thing must work

Sherman Krank


Attila

Quote from: olliebean on March 26, 2022, 11:30:35 AMNow that we've got watchers, I'm assuming they've already filmed the scene with Picard on his deathbed croaking "The moment has been prepared for..."

will he turn into Peter Davison?

elliszeroed

At the end of the series Q will turn Picard into a real boy.

Mobbd

Why are they even trying to fix a dark timeline anyway? It's not their own future or a time travel crisis that has affected their present is it? It's an alternate reality to which Q has finger-snapped them, no?

Prime Directive and Temporal Prime Directive aside, why does Team Picard give any kind of shit about what's happening in an alternate universe?

And even if they care for a good reason and then succeed in fixing it, are they going to try and do the same for infinity other universes they don't like the look of?

I am not being factious or trying to nitpick. These are genuine questions. Are they answered on screen?

JamesTC

Quote from: Mr Trumpet on March 26, 2022, 02:49:31 PMAlways fun to see nerds get angry about how a conceptionally impossible thing must work


Sherman Krank

Quote from: Mobbd on March 26, 2022, 07:45:27 PMWhy are they even trying to fix a dark timeline anyway? It's not their own future or a time travel crisis that has affected their present is it? It's an alternate reality to which Q has finger-snapped them, no?

Prime Directive and Temporal Prime Directive aside, why does Team Picard give any kind of shit about what's happening in an alternate universe?

And even if they care for a good reason and then succeed in fixing it, are they going to try and do the same for infinity other universes they don't like the look of?

I am not being factious or trying to nitpick. These are genuine questions. Are they answered on screen?

That would be a parallel universe that has always existed alongside but separate from their universe (like the one they used towards the end of DS9 when the main cast wanted a go at being the baddies to show their range as they were likely and correctly concerned about being typecast).
It appears what Q has done/is going do is change the reality of their universe so that history as they remember it is the same up until 2024 but from then on completely changes.

Of course Picard and co. wouldn't ever exist in the altered timeline as they're around 20 generations on so in 2024 Picard would have somewhere in region of a million great great great etc. grandparents and in order for him to be born all of those million people would have to live pretty much identical lives in both timelines as would half a million of their children, 250,000 of their grandchildren and so on.
But they can easily get around that by using Q and his seemingly infinite abilities as a get out of jail free card (Q stopped them popping out of existence, put them in the new timeline and gave them all high powered jobs so they could go back in time to stop him or something).
They could have also just said Q made Guinan forget Picard (but they didn't).

In fact I doubt there's a single Star Trek plot hole that can't be explained by just saying 'Q dun it mate'.

Malcy

The producers/writers or whoever have sort of stated that Q isn't responsible for the events but is trying to help instead as it is also affecting him somehow like his odd behaviour and loss of powers.


beanheadmcginty

Has there been some sort of secret edict that all sci-fi/comic book things now have to revolve around parallel universes/fixing sacred timelines? They're all at it. At the same time. I think Star Wars is the only one that hasn't succumbed so far. Only a matter of time.


phantom_power

Fixing timelines and stopping ancient prophecies are the most overused tropes in modern sci-fi

SOMK

The 60's (and 70's) to an extant were awash with the notion that technology would lead to collective elevation. 40+ years of flat income growth, the existential disappointment of winning the Cold war (after the post 90's high), Iraq, Obama, Trump. All these things have conspired to break the American liberal brain, there is a subconscious realisation that these ideas don't actually work anymore (so you double down on what is classic bad (such as racism, Russians, or Graham Linehan), and by pointing to it and saying "bad" you know you are "good"), but power is beholden to the idealogical structures that holds it up, social media reenforces this because the very structure of such applications is built of fairly reductive models of human beings, treating them like lever pressing pigeons in a Skinner lab (forgetting that humans are mildly more complicated than pigeons and don't live in highly controlled and constricted lab environments).

This sense of existential hopelessness could be argued to be behind what seems to be permeating a lot of mass culture, an acknowledgment that there is something fundamentally wrong with the present blocks your capacity to imagine a genuine and optimistic future, much like a severe ear ache stops you planning your holiday in Majorca. Capital realism innit?

Timeline fuckery is a great way to reset a franchise when actors grow out of roles or want to move on, it also can help cover up or account for licensing issues (how else will mutants be introduced in the Marvel universe?), which nu-trek has been dogged with. 

phantom_power

There has been talk in the last few episodes that there is hope for the future and always time to change and become better, which gives me a bit of hope that they might be trying to course-correct the darkness, but not much hope

Wonderful Butternut

Quote from: Mobbd on March 26, 2022, 07:45:27 PMWhy are they even trying to fix a dark timeline anyway? It's not their own future or a time travel crisis that has affected their present is it? It's an alternate reality to which Q has finger-snapped them, no?

Prime Directive and Temporal Prime Directive aside, why does Team Picard give any kind of shit about what's happening in an alternate universe?

And even if they care for a good reason and then succeed in fixing it, are they going to try and do the same for infinity other universes they don't like the look of?

I am not being factious or trying to nitpick. These are genuine questions. Are they answered on screen?

The answer is the treatment of Time Travel is inconsistent. Mostly, if there's been a fuck up to the timeline in the past that the heroes are somehow aware of, they have to go back and fix it and restore the 'correct' timeline. City on the Edge, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact, Past Tense etc. etc.

But then occasionally when it suits them, most notably in Abrams Trek, there are parallel universes, so it doesn't matter if an entire fucking planet with 6 billion people on it is wiped out.

Ep 5 down:

Spoiler alert
Up until Picard mentioned that she allegedly found some living spore Io, that was somehow important, my guess was that in actuality, Renee Picard is not supposed to be on the Europa mission and Q is trying to ensure she doesn't go. And the timeline has been fucked up by someone or something else. And Q in 2401 had already experienced Picard foiling him in 2024, and that's why he was so pissy with him.

Also I'm not sure how the Europa mission would be that important. I thought First Contact, which isn't for another 40 years was what really caused humanity to set aside war, hate etc.

Then again I suppose the same could be said of the Bell Riots, so that's a nitpick.

Borg Queen continues to be the best thing about the series. Although why the fuck did they leave her both activated with access to the ship's systems and unsupervised? I can appreciate Jurati probably doesn't want to play chess with the manipulative psycho bitch, but can they not cut her off from the ship's systems or something? She was able to cut her out of the transporter.
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beanheadmcginty

I was really confused because the Irish Romulan woman looks completely different when not done up as an Irish Romulan, so I couldn't work out why Picard knew her.