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March 28, 2024, 09:23:23 AM

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Starmer VIII: Labour will set you free

Started by pancreas, March 16, 2022, 08:54:56 AM

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EOLAN

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 18, 2022, 11:02:27 AMhttps://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1526862338292334599 / https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/labour-frontbenchers-told-to-stay-away-from-tiverton-honiton-let-lib-dems-tories-byelection

Interesting, Labour came second in the last two elections but third prior to that, the seat was only invented in 1997. Stepping aside for a party that got 8% 5 years ago.

And during the Cameron v Miliband election; it was UKIP they finished third to as opposed to Lib Dems. So three elections in a row  they have outperformed the Lib Dems.


Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 18, 2022, 11:02:27 AMhttps://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1526862338292334599 / https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/labour-frontbenchers-told-to-stay-away-from-tiverton-honiton-let-lib-dems-tories-byelection

Interesting, Labour came second in the last two elections but third prior to that, the seat was only invented in 1997. Stepping aside for a party that got 8% 5 years ago.


They sure are determined to win over tory voters to Labour, aren't they?

king_tubby

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 18, 2022, 11:02:27 AMhttps://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1526862338292334599 / https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/labour-frontbenchers-told-to-stay-away-from-tiverton-honiton-let-lib-dems-tories-byelection

Interesting, Labour came second in the last two elections but third prior to that, the seat was only invented in 1997. Stepping aside for a party that got 8% 5 years ago.


Managing expectations for when they do badly and/or concentrating on Wakefield as the local CLP won't be much help there now.

Memorex MP3

Right move to not even bother with that seat tbh, unless there's some massive local movement or something. Tories have consistently done 30%+ over Labour there, even in 2017.

king_tubby

You'd have thought they'd send at least one bigwig along for local CLP morale.

But then again, they are skint.

shoulders

Quote from: Memorex MP3 on May 18, 2022, 02:19:11 PMRight move to not even bother with that seat tbh, unless there's some massive local movement or something. Tories have consistently done 30%+ over Labour there, even in 2017.


I don't know what this means. Labour, even this set, are more than capable of funding 2 by elections. They have more chance than a party who have continually finished behind them. Plus local campaigning is about gaining momentum in councillors and building important allies in community groups who seed that impression among their network. It is not about Yvette Cooper walking through a shopping centre. The results of recent years are a platform.

Even so, I'm all for LD/Labour standing aside in constituencies where there's a viable target to take down. This doesn't appear to be one and we are kissing goodbye to years of hard work getting a foothold in the area.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: king_tubby on May 18, 2022, 02:36:04 PMYou'd have thought they'd send at least one bigwig along for local CLP morale.

But then again, they are skint.

They've already stuck two fingers up at them and will probably unable to answer with anything beyond "fuck you, that's why".

Memorex MP3

Quote from: shoulders on May 18, 2022, 03:17:30 PMI don't know what this means. Labour, even this set, are more than capable of funding 2 by elections. They have more chance than a party who have continually finished behind them. Plus local campaigning is about gaining momentum in councillors and building important allies in community groups who seed that impression among their network. It is not about Yvette Cooper walking through a shopping centre. The results of recent years are a platform.

Even so, I'm all for LD/Labour standing aside in constituencies where there's a viable target to take down. This doesn't appear to be one and we are kissing goodbye to years of hard work getting a foothold in the area.
Yes it is, and Labour don't seem to have much of anything in that regard in the area at the moment from what I've seen whereas the Lib Dems do and have done since forever.

Whatever kind of foothold they got in 2017 was pissed away in 2019 and this Labour party isn't gonna regain a bit of it when they're just offering a different flavour of Lib Dem in an area where the Lib Dems already have a strong local presence.

shoulders

That is a reason for them not to stand anywhere though.

Blinder Data

there are umpteen things to criticise this current labour party for, but leaving the lib dems a free run at the Tiverton by-election is not one of them. the last two elections Labour were second, but historically and culturally the south west of England is much more comfortable with lib Dem as alternative to Tories and they're finally recovering post-coalition. it's still a massive majority to overcome but the the lib dem by-election machine should see to that. it also means labour get a free run at Wakefield which they should win but don't want to take anything for granted.

it's a useful indicator of how the next GE should shape up. thank God the two main non-Tory parties are being realistic about their prospects.

king_tubby

Quote from: Memorex MP3 on May 18, 2022, 06:08:39 PMPlus local campaigning is about gaining momentum in councillors and building important allies in community groups who seed that impression among their network

Ah yeah, they had local campaigning strategy didn't they? Get rid, mate. Tainted.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Blinder Data on May 18, 2022, 06:28:01 PMthere are umpteen things to criticise this current labour party for, but leaving the lib dems a free run at the Tiverton by-election is not one of them. the last two elections Labour were second, but historically and culturally the south west of England is much more comfortable with lib Dem as alternative to Tories and they're finally recovering post-coalition. it's still a massive majority to overcome but the the lib dem by-election machine should see to that. it also means labour get a free run at Wakefield which they should win but don't want to take anything for granted.

it's a useful indicator of how the next GE should shape up. thank God the two main non-Tory parties are being realistic about their prospects.

This is bollocks from beginning to end.

Mr_Simnock


phantom_power

It is crazy to me that all the aggression in the party comes from the right, from the current purges to the sabotage that happened under Corbyn, whereas he was always accommodating to the right (maybe too much) by having a fairly mixed shadow cabinet. But popular opinion seems to be at the very least that both sides are as bad as each other and more often that the force is coming from the left. Now I know the reasons behind this (right wing media, vested interested etc.) and I know certain factions on the left are more interested in ideological purity more than winning people over with persuasive argument or any sort of compromise, but I am just surprised and saddened sometimes that more people don't see through it

Paul Calf

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on May 19, 2022, 12:03:32 AMThis is bollocks from beginning to end.

The only flaw is the notion that the Lib-Dems represent an alternative to the Tories. It's a pretty important flaw, but it isn't 'bollocks from beginning to end'.

pigamus

I'm not exactly thrilled by the prospect of more Lib Dems but it does make sense. No point splitting the vote.

Paul Calf

It's fine if you want privatisation and surrender to capital to continue while the state is hollowed out by people who lay plaudits on the poor and minority people they're killing with the other hand.

Does absolutely nothing to address the actual problems though.

Paul Calf

The Lib Dems are without any doubt whatsoever the most successful confidence trick ever played in British politics.

Fambo Number Mive

Exactly, and their choice of former Coalition minister Ed Davy over the less right wing Layla Moran shows their members will be happy to go back into coalition with the Tory party when it chooses someone like Ben Wallace or Jeremy Hunt as leader in 2030.

Johnny Yesno

#800
Quote from: Paul Calf on May 19, 2022, 09:11:45 AMThe only flaw is the notion that the Lib-Dems represent an alternative to the Tories. It's a pretty important flaw, but it isn't 'bollocks from beginning to end'.

It really is bollocks from beginning to end.

Quotethere are umpteen things to criticise this current labour party for, but leaving the lib dems a free run at the Tiverton by-election is not one of them.

You've already covered this, I feel.

Quotethe last two elections Labour were second, but historically and culturally the south west of England is much more comfortable with lib Dem as alternative to Tories

That contradicts both itself and the evidence.

Quoteit's still a massive majority to overcome but the the lib dem by-election machine should see to that.

'Should' doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Quoteit also means labour get a free run at Wakefield which they should win but don't want to take anything for granted.

Why does this have anything to do with Wakefield? Are Labour unable to commit the resources to fighting two by-elections at the same time? Also, look what focusing on Wakefield has involved so far: rule-breaking in order to get the preferred Westminster candidate parachuted in. The very definition of taking the electorate for granted.

Quoteit's a useful indicator of how the next GE should shape up.

Imran Khan was convicted of sexually assaulting a teenage boy. A GE could be two years away. In what way will this by-election be a useful indicator?

Quotethank God the two main non-Tory parties are being realistic about their prospects.

Westminster Labour abandoning the local party and its voters, leaving them with the option of voting for the repugnant and distant third Lib Dems or not voting at all. How very realistic and grown-up.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Paul Calf on May 19, 2022, 09:27:58 AMThe Lib Dems are without any doubt whatsoever the most successful confidence trick ever played in British politics.

What, more than blairism which by his own admission relied on a bait and switch on working class voters ('they'll have nowhere else to go'), returned a majority several times and advanced the privatisation and hollowing with its own hands to the point it made the ld's look superficially left-wing by comparison?

Blinder Data

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on May 19, 2022, 09:58:21 AMThat contradicts both itself and the evidence.

Outside the bigger towns and cities, SW England was pretty much the Lib Dems stronghold until 2015. Look it up yourself if you don't believe me.

Quote'Should' doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

They overturned a similarly massive majority in Shropshire (from third place) - they are strong favourites to win it.

QuoteWhy does this have anything to do with Wakefield? Are Labour unable to commit the resources to fighting two by-elections at the same time? Also, look what focusing on Wakefield has involved so far: rule-breaking in order to get the preferred Westminster candidate parachuted in. The very definition of taking the electorate for granted.

Yep, pretty much. They would prefer to expend scant resources on a seat that they are likelier to win.

Exactly how a party chooses a candidate has little influence on whether or not the broader electorate vote for them. A stitch-up can lead to crap candidates but the candidate is what loses votes, not internal selections.

QuoteImran Khan was convicted of sexually assaulting a teenage boy. A GE could be two years away. In what way will this by-election be a useful indicator?

Westminster Labour abandoning the local party and its voters, leaving them with the option of voting for the repugnant and distant third Lib Dems or not voting at all. How very realistic and grown-up.

Labour and Lib Dems, due to low resources and basic arithmetic, are only going for the seats they think they can win. In 2019, the Lib Dems drank the Remain Kool-aid and thought they could end up the biggest party. Labour tried to advance on 2017 gains before making a defensive retreat during the second half of the campaign when they felt the red Wall shifting beneath their feet. Both parties' campaigns and lack of any kind of subtle cooperation meant they lost seats to the Tories. It looks like both parties have learnt their lesson and next GE should be different.

pigamus

It is a bit galling how the Lib Dems are so anonymous and invisible and shit and yet they're guaranteed to do well just by not being the other two.  You wonder what's the point in having policies at all

Paul Calf

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 19, 2022, 10:03:44 AMWhat, more than blairism which by his own admission relied on a bait and switch on working class voters ('they'll have nowhere else to go'), returned a majority several times and advanced the privatisation and hollowing with its own hands to the point it made the ld's look superficially left-wing by comparison?

Oh, yeah. Apart from that :)

I think most people have seen through Blair by now though, whereas a lot of people still seem to think that the Lib Dems would be preferable to the Tories. They wouldn't. They'd protect or accelerate all the things that the Tories are wrecking.

Psybro

Quote from: Blinder Data on May 19, 2022, 01:15:05 PMBoth parties' campaigns and lack of any kind of subtle cooperation meant they lost seats to the Tories. It looks like both parties have learnt their lesson and next GE should be different.

I think it has a lot more to do with their interests now being aligned on a return to the glory days of 2015.


monkfromhavana

A "return" to Blairism???? You mean this isn't what we're living through now in the Labour Party.

Ferris

That people are still wallet-inspector'd by the lib dems is astonishing.

Fair play to them, some people are desperate to be mugged off so you can't blame the lib dems for doing it.

king_tubby

https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1527298449351188481

QuoteEXCL: Hit squads could be sent in to failing Labour council groups, with under-performing local leaders facing the sack under reforms being proposed by Keir Starmer.

Party source: "We aren't a private members club any more we are servants of the people"

QuoteIt is understood that Croydon Borough Council is one of the local authority Labour groups which have been indentified as under-performing by party bosses.

David Evans: KEITH? KIETH? WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS? I WILL BREAK YOU