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March 28, 2024, 08:27:03 AM

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Starmer VIII: Labour will set you free

Started by pancreas, March 16, 2022, 08:54:56 AM

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Video Game Fan 2000

meaning, stories and identity blah blah cultural blah

beat the educated class with belts. what does that mean, eh?

Pink Gregory

Britain has embraced extremism loads of times; the upper classes before the war loved the Nazis.  The politics of the national front have basically been folded into the ruling party, at least its Monday Club fringe.  The Rivers of Blood speech, which was extremely popular with thr british public according to polls, was rebroadcast on the BBC very recently.

Video Game Fan 2000

how is a monarchy not extremism
how is the head of state also being the head of the church not extremism
how is colonialism not extremism
how is heriditary rule not extremism
how is aristocracy having a huge role in lawmaking not extremism
etc

but russia, populism, communism and fascism eh? authenticity and tradition. MEANING

Paul Calf

Plus Cultural Marxist postmodernist scum Crobbins, of course. How such an extreme far left threat could be allowed to continue drawing breath in our renowed bastion of moderation and pragmatism I am unsure.

idunnosomename

Quote from: Pink Gregory on June 02, 2022, 04:38:56 PMBritain has embraced extremism loads of times; the upper classes before the war loved the Nazis.  The politics of the national front have basically been folded into the ruling party, at least its Monday Club fringe.  The Rivers of Blood speech, which was extremely popular with thr british public according to polls, was rebroadcast on the BBC very recently.
but like. Her uncle?

Video Game Fan 2000


Blumf


jamiefairlie

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on June 02, 2022, 04:44:15 PMhow is a monarchy not extremism
how is the head of state also being the head of the church not extremism
how is colonialism not extremism
how is heriditary rule not extremism
how is aristocracy having a huge role in lawmaking not extremism
etc

but russia, populism, communism and fascism eh? authenticity and tradition. MEANING

Extremism is a relative term, compared to the prevailing norm at the time. Where the Overton window is today, none of these are extreme, whereas mainstream political postwar policies such as nationalization, major infrastructure programs, full employment, etc, are extreme now.

Video Game Fan 2000

that post is on the money if you replace the word "relative" with "meaningless" - its just a way to signify badness without having to say what you think is good or express support for any values or ideology at all. I dislike bad things, especially the ones that are -like- really bad. I think extremism is most useful when it describes the lengths actors will go to achieve their ends, but its seldom used that way. It's mostly used now to make spurious distinctions between left and extreme left, Muslim and Muslim extremist, populist and extreme populist, etc.

I've always thought that the "overton window" is a bad concept - too focused on discourse and norms, it really shows the limits of relativism in politics, because its demonstrates how relativistic attitudes are always selective about what is relative and what is not. For example, monarchism is "extremism" in the USA and France, etc. it doesn't really matter how "acceptable" the idea of a monarch is to people in the UK, or what the fucking discourse about monarchy is like, we're stuck with one anyway. The general mode about how beneficial the monarcy is bounces around like a pinball and isn't very consistent across social groups, and yet the monarchy remains a fact independent of all that.

Famous Mortimer

I'm not sure why you think people in the USA and UK having different opinions on the monarchy means the Overton window is an unworkable concept. It just means...it's different in different places?

Video Game Fan 2000

#940
I think the frame of what is considered acceptable discourse doesn't really have that much bearing on what becomes policy. The Overton Window supposedly describes how policy ideas come and go in waves over time, like fashion, and I don't see it. If anything things get more entrenched and certain ideas prove to be perennial even as superficial cultural shifts happen.

Governments do all kinds of things independently of how free or represented the populace feels and thats reflected in the policies of major parties. UK civil service cuts, French retirement reform and US Roe V Wade decision are all massively outside of what is "feasible" in the public's eyes and they're all mainstream policy positions even so. The Overton Window idea also suggests that stuff is "radical" when its outside and normal or acceptable when its inside, and normal ideas are more likely to become policy than radical ideas. Which is fucking nonsense when some people vote for right wing radicals because they're radicals, and others support climate radicals because only radical changes in policy reflect that reality. There's no real slow move from the thinkable to the unthinkable, the unthinkable arrives with a dull thud or it was here all along (like the monarchy)


Zero Gravitas

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on June 02, 2022, 11:25:53 PMUK civil service cuts, French retirement reform and US Roe V Wade decision

It's almost like internal contradictions are powering a constant churning of aspects in and out of predominance...it's really weird.

idunnosomename

Great bit from Sir Queef about how much he loves the queen. When his father (Sir Toolmaker Starmer) and mother (Lady Nurse Starmer) heard he was getting a knightmare of his own, they said they couldnt go because they couldnt leave their great dane alone in their little red wall hamlet outside the M25. So little Kieth said bring the dog to my knightmare! So they did and haha a dog in the palace of Buckingham!!!

The dog then burnt to death in a housefire while Sir Toolmaker was in hospital dying. What a funny story from this brilliant man 👏

Quote from: idunnosomename on June 03, 2022, 12:30:29 PMGreat bit from Sir Queef about how much he loves the queen. When his father (Sir Toolmaker Starmer) and mother (Lady Nurse Starmer) heard he was getting a knightmare of his own, they said they couldnt go because they couldnt leave their great dane alone in their little red wall hamlet outside the M25. So little Kieth said bring the dog to my knightmare! So they did and haha a dog in the palace of Buckingham!!!

The dog then burnt to death in a housefire while Sir Toolmaker was in hospital dying. What a funny story from this brilliant man 👏

I wonder who got the power pack?!

Paul Calf


Video Game Fan 2000

Quote from: Zero Gravitas on June 03, 2022, 03:29:19 AMIt's almost like internal contradictions are powering a constant churning of aspects in and out of predominance...it's really weird.

the contradictions are the point

overton window idea comes from the liberal age where the dream was that things like radical policy changes had sense and reason behind them that we can understand if we're clever enough. now not only is history back but contingency too


Johnny Yesno

I'm not sure your description of the Overton window is entirely correct, VGF2000.

My understanding is that it concerns whether policies are likely to be accepted by the public and not whether governments choose to implement them at all. Obviously the former has some bearing on the latter but would you say, for example, that the poll tax was inside the Overton window at the time the government attempted to implement it? Or that the decriminalisation of cannabis is currently outside it?

Video Game Fan 2000

the overton window is meant to model how feasibility or how "thinkable" things changes over time, which radical ideas initially seeming unthinkable and then slowly becoming normal policy as public opinion changes. its basically saying that politics follows trends like fashion and we can model these trends by looking at political culture and public opinion

i don't recognise the political world that is meant to describe. It describes some policy changes - poll tax is a good example - but not others - like Blair's initial assault against the NHS or his support of the Iraq war. we live in a world where the unthinkable is implemented and wildly popular political ideas are totally ignored by elected officials. we don't live in a world where discourse dictates norms and regularities that politicians have to follow or perish, or where policy ideas that make people feel unfree or misrepresentated are doomed to die on their arse

its all part of the post-cold war dream that something as contingent and arbitrary as successful/failure of certain policies can be modeled or even predicted with sociology and statistics. then kaboom 9/11 and the subprime crisis


jamiefairlie

The Overton Window (it's useful shorthand) is not predictive, it's descriptive. The point is that it lags what governments and the media push as 'the right thing to do'. The OW gets pushed and pulled by intentional actors seeking to influence public opinion rather than those actors referring to the OW for guidance.

shoulders

The Overton Window simply concerns how 'normality' and 'moderate' opinions are adjusted over time to move certain political ideas out of the scope of mainstream discourse and by doing so create a new normal and a new extreme.

Everything else is an over interpreted version.


jamiefairlie

Quote from: shoulders on June 03, 2022, 04:47:30 PMThe Overton Window simply concerns how 'normality' and 'moderate' opinions are adjusted over time to move certain political ideas out of the scope of mainstream discourse and by doing so create a new normal and a new extreme.

Everything else is an over interpreted version.



Yes. It's a useful tool to also describe how the Tories/UKIP/Blair dragged public acceptance to the right but Labour are terrified to campaign on pulling it back leftwards (from an economic perspective). Tories focus on changing the OW, Labour looks for direction from its current position.

Video Game Fan 2000

as a shorthand its fine, everyone knows what its meant to mean. but my view is that some parts of policy follow opinion/discourse in that way, but other majorly important things don't track to such adjustments

there was some chat about "post-ideological" views of politics in another thread, and the overton window is an artifact of such an attitude. the sort of idea you come to if you're attempting to be indifferent to ideology or left/right division and think of policy as directly expressive of sentiment. ideas are radical based on opinion only, there aren't such things as politic ideas that are radical in themselves.

politics without politics

Martin Van Buren Stan


shoulders

Quote from: Martin Van Buren Stan on June 03, 2022, 05:02:00 PMShe talks so much bollocks at times



Seems like the right area of concern but looking at it through the wrong end of the telescope. Our universities whoring themselves out to world elites for financing while closing down important departments and neglecting to provide spaces for potential British undergraduates is a far bigger concern than that.

Martin Van Buren Stan

Quote from: shoulders on June 03, 2022, 06:42:23 PMSeems like the right area of concern but looking at it through the wrong end of the telescope. Our universities whoring themselves out to world elites for financing while closing down important departments and neglecting to provide spaces for potential British undergraduates is a far bigger concern than that.

They terrrk errr univerrrrsity places!

Paul Calf

Quote from: Martin Van Buren Stan on June 03, 2022, 08:29:53 PMThey terrrk errr univerrrrsity places!

University places are being auctioned off to the highest bidders. This is usually rich Saudi, Indian and Chinese students who have no cap on fees and pay 3-4 times what British students pay for the same course. Working class students and those of limited means get pushed out as usual.

With respect, you can stick your South-Park-AnCap bollocks up your anus.

Martin Van Buren Stan

I was completely joking with that, it just popped into my head and I ran with it. Agree with you both 100%.

thugler

Quote from: Paul Calf on June 03, 2022, 09:12:18 PMUniversity places are being auctioned off to the highest bidders. This is usually rich Saudi, Indian and Chinese students who have no cap on fees and pay 3-4 times what British students pay for the same course. Working class students and those of limited means get pushed out as usual.

With respect, you can stick your South-Park-AnCap bollocks up your anus.

That's because the government forced Universities to become businesses first reliant on generating fees.

Seems like you're twisting it quite a bit to make it seem like she's not said another faintly dim thing. It's not the first time. She is usually left wing but also frequently bad at her job and gaffe prone. I don't feel the need to pretend otherwise.

Blumf

Isn't she talking about taking trained people away from third world countries, not the students.

Could see it being a problem trying to build up your economy if most your high skilled labour is drained away to the West.

Martin Van Buren Stan

I think the "brain drain" theory has been debunked. Can't remember where though.