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The big CaB Doctor Who (2005) rewatch thread - starts May 30, 2022

Started by Mister Six, May 24, 2022, 03:30:33 AM

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Mister Six


Midas

Quote from: Mister Six on July 01, 2022, 05:08:12 AMThe shrine always baffles me, given that Ianto was the most boring character in an incredibly shit show, but I appreciate the pics anyway. :)

BritishHobo

As I've only ever watched series 1 and 2 in dribs and drabs out of order over the years, I'd never realised before that most of the Torchwood cast were present in series 1, I thought it was just Jack (had forgotten about Gwyneth). Now I'm going to be terrified for the rest of the series that Owen is lurking around a corner, ready to commit his dirty, seedy acts.

daf

Never seen any Torchwood - I've heard there's a bit of effing and jeffing, but do they actually get their cock and balls out?

Endicott

What they do is talk about sexing each other using absolutely excruciating dialog that no real person would ever use. And I always thought the acting was awful, but I guess there's no-one who could say any of those lines convincingly.

H-O-W-L

It's all shit until Children of Earth. Then it's good. Then Miracle Day was utter garbo twattery.

crankshaft

Quote from: daf on July 01, 2022, 05:03:27 PMNever seen any Torchwood - I've heard there's a bit of effing and jeffing, but do they actually get their cock and balls out?

No, but they do manage to have a villain in episode 2 who fucks people to death for their orgasm energy or some shit. Also Owen gets to deliver the line, "have you ever cum so hard you didn't know where you were?". It is an exceedingly cringey show.

If you were ever going to bother with any of it, Children Of Earth is the only series worth watching.

Quote from: H-O-W-L on July 01, 2022, 05:26:46 PMThen Miracle Day was utter garbo twattery.

The giant Earthgina. My god.

daf

Sounds bloody awful!

(Amazed Barowman didn't get his bum out at least once - that's practically all I could picture happening in the show!)

frajer

Quote from: crankshaft on July 01, 2022, 05:29:05 PMNo, but they do manage to have a villain in episode 2 who fucks people to death for their orgasm energy or some shit. Also Owen gets to deliver the line, "have you ever cum so hard you didn't know where you were?". It is an exceedingly cringey show.

Yeah it's hilarious and crap that such an intentionally "adult" show feels like it's written by teenagers who haven't had a sniff yet.

Malcy

I mostly enjoyed the first two series. Children Of Earth is outstanding though.

Miracle day was shite. Knew it probably would have been due to it going to the US but there were some really great US actors in it who were mostly wasted.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: Endicott on July 01, 2022, 05:13:35 PMWhat they do is talk about sexing each other using absolutely excruciating dialog that no real person would ever use. And I always thought the acting was awful, but I guess there's no-one who could say any of those lines convincingly.

Burn Gorman is a good actor, but as you say, even Robert De Niro in his prime would struggle to lend depth to such dreadful writing.

Torchwood/Chibnall also fundamentally misunderstood the entire point of Captain Jack. He's a fun, likeable, twinkly space rogue, not some sort of brooding tortured soul. And even if the writing was any good, which it wasn't, Barrowman doesn't have the range to carry off that sort of thing.

RTD's Children of Earth was good, though. That's all the Torchwood anyone needs.

EDIT: Crankshaft already made that last point. It's true though.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: daf on July 01, 2022, 05:42:33 PMSounds bloody awful!

(Amazed Barowman didn't get his bum out at least once - that's practically all I could picture happening in the show!)

He got his bum out during Children of Earth (that sounds wrong in so many ways). Which rather undermines our claims that Children of Earth is the only Torchwood worth watching, but I can assure you that Barrowman's cheeky bare bum doesn't take centre stage. It is but a fleeting cameo.

Replies From View

Quote from: Mister Six on July 01, 2022, 05:08:12 AMThe shrine always baffles me, given that Owen was the most boring character in an incredibly shit show, but I appreciate the pics anyway. :)

People who like Torchwood love shit things, boring characters, the works.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

It really is baffling, though. Ianto was such a boring character, a total nonentity. He was barely there.

I can sort of understand the shipping that went on with regards to the 13th Doctor and Yaz, because - despite being poorly written characters with zero agency - the 13th Doctor and Yaz were at least played by actors with some self-evident ability. They did what they could under the circumstances. The bloke who played Ianto was just the bloke who played Ianto.

Alberon

I suppose a gay male relationship in SF was still quite rare back then. So it might have been that made it so popular as opposed to the charisma of both characters.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: Alberon on July 01, 2022, 07:44:34 PMI suppose a gay male relationship in SF was still quite rare back then. So it might have been that made it so popular as opposed to the charisma of both characters.

That's true, yes. It's just such a shame that, as per Chibnall's bland presentation of the first female Doctor, it was all so badly written.

BritishHobo

On that note, I've noticed that the Daily Mail's dreaded "gay agenda" hasn't been present yet so far in series 1. In fact the only references we've had have been the jokey he's gay and she's an alien/you're so gay lines. RTD admirably did a lot to normalise references to gay people in New Who, but I wonder if it's something he was a bit wary of doing it in series 1, preferring to wait to see how the revival was received first.

Midas

A lot of accusatory fingers have been pointed at Chibnall for the atrocity that was Torchwood, and while he's undoubtedly a major player in the execution of what can only be described as a crime against humanity, I feel a little bit uncomfortable with ascribing an undeserved burden of guilt upon his conscience, when it's unclear how much of the premise, characters, tone and format had already been established before he took over as showrunner. As much as I admire RTD's writing on the whole, the misjudged juvenility, grotesque characterisation and inescapable naffness that ultimately defined Torchwood is abundant in his script Everything Changes (even the best writer in the world would struggle to develop Owen (for example) into an engaging or likeable character after he had been introduced attempting to date rape someone - as a gag, no less).

This is not to say the legacy of Torchwood isn't stained by the clumsy "Chibnallien touch" that would later soil his scripts when he took over as showrunner for Doctor Who, but some fans misguidedly discuss his work as though it was written in spite of an imagined visionary premise devised by RTD; if only we'd been given a cerebral, adult sci-fi drama, rather than this execration that was defiled from Day One by Chibnall's cold, dead hands. As enticing as this mythology is, I think Chibnall by and large delivered Torchwood as it was originally envisaged, and of course it's a disaster; how could a thirteen episode monster-of-the-week series ever have the tools in its arsenal to satisfactorily explore onscreen the complexities of the adult world through the means of a science fiction story, when everything has to be set within the rigid framework of an episode of Scooby Doo? The later episodes being produced so that they could be re-edited as pre-watershed child-friendly versions only set out to make the programme even more impotent.

Children of Earth works as a piece of pulp-y entertainment not just because it responds to the failings of the original premise but because it re-tools the series into something smarter than a late night indulgence in blood and gore.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

RTD's "gay agenda" wasn't just confined to the Daily Mail, there were loads of utterly awful people moaning about it on Gallifrey Base. I abandoned that forum during Tennant's first series, as it was just so depressing.

I will never understand why a television programme as fundamentally progressive and inclusive as Doctor Who attracts so many reactionary bigots. They're a vocal minority, admittedly, most Doctor Who fans aren't like that. But it's bizarre, those pricks don't understand the ethos of a show they profess to love. 

BritishHobo

Digital Spy and IMDb (both of which I frequented during RTD's tenure) also had their fair share of people unfathomably angry about the "agenda". As you say, it's paradoxically small-minded; why are they watching? You can go a million years into the future and meet mad aliens, but you can't imply that a fictional future astronaut has a same-sex partner.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Loads of fans of 'vintage' TV are like that. Thick little Brexit types who just want everything to be like it never was. You knew where you were with Jon Pertwee, unlike now with all these women, gays and ethnic minorities.

Fuck 'em. Right in the ear.

Mister Six

Quote from: Midas on July 01, 2022, 03:58:37 PMThe shrine always baffles me, given that Ianto was the most boring character in an incredibly shit show, but I appreciate the pics anyway. :)

Oh yeah. Who was Owen again? Burn Gorman? A marginally more interesting character.

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#292
I never felt that Torchwood had potential to be a masterpiece, just a passable spin-off for older viewers really.  And it would have been at least passable under RTD.  However it became clear quite early on that it had a different concept of what "grown-up" meant than I expected, and in my mind this is what sabotaged it.

As much as RTD set the tone of the show with his first episode, there are enough examples of shows changing after their first few episodes as they find their feet, so it's an insufficient defence.  I think the limited palette of the show falls squarely with Chibnall and his choices.

Essentially, to be "more adult", Torchwood should have only asked the question:  "When Mary Whitehouse etc complained about Doctor Who's content, what restrictions came about that then hampered where the show could go?"

It was only ever about the level of violence (things like the Doctor's head being held underwater) or the slightly disturbing nature of some of the ideas / imagery.  Never the amount of overt sexuality that anyone wanted to shoehorn in, or the characters being too interesting or well performed.  You can also tell when a writer is gagging to shove swearing into their show just for the hell of it.

There were plenty of shows out there with the right tone, so it was no mystery - no uncharted waters.  "What could a science fiction show for young adults / teenagers be?"  Oh well clearly to be adult everyone needs to be perpetually skewed with the sexual magnetism virus.  Its unique selling point was that it sat within the world of Doctor Who, so it could be tongue in cheek and it could change genre from episode to episode.  The show with the closest potential that I can think of is Quantum Leap.

Children of Earth is what Torchwood should have been from the start, and there was nothing about RTD's first episode of series 1 that meant it couldn't have been that under a better showrunner / headwriter than Chibnall.

Replies From View

Also, watching Chibnall's Who it quickly became clear what his dead dialogue does to everything around it.  The best ideas in the world wouldn't have saved Torchwood from the fact that all his ciphers read like parodies of what youngish people must sound like to his ears.

RetroRobot

I like the Slitheen 2 parter but then again I was 11 when it aired. But it, and End of the World, was what grabbed me into the reboot after being familiar with the 3rd and 4th Doctors thanks to my mum. Its silly but it definitely worked. Then Dalek cemented it. I love this run and I can admit it's a lot of nostalgia but I think even now series 1 holds up.

The political stuff is great, the humour is... not so great but it worked when I was 11, which is what I imagine RTD was going for?
The Slitheen are a fun concept. Space mobsters that look like ET's pregnant mother. I'm rambling but overall as a 2 parter... 6/10, it's fun.

Sorry for the ramble.

WRT Torchwood, I think there a few solid stories in Season 1 & 2 - Countrycide, Out of Time, Sleeper. No more than a handful, mind.

I remember joking at the time, maybe after the first episode, that Miracle Day would be about 'a giant space clunge'.

Mister Six

RTD's vision for Torchwood might have been as trashy, puerile and adolescent as the show turned out to be (and he was obviously on board with the sex monster, which is just embarrassing), but the problems extend far beyond that - inconsistent characterisation (why would autopsy man Owen be the one that vomits when he sees the mutilated corpse in Countrycide?), unbelievably poor dialogue, dismal plotting, the same bloody prop being used for two different functions etc etc.

Quote from: RetroRobot on July 02, 2022, 05:39:57 PMI like the Slitheen 2 parter but then again I was 11 when it aired. But it, and End of the World, was what grabbed me into the reboot after being familiar with the 3rd and 4th Doctors thanks to my mum. Its silly but it definitely worked. Then Dalek cemented it. I love this run and I can admit it's a lot of nostalgia but I think even now series 1 holds up.

The political stuff is great, the humour is... not so great but it worked when I was 11, which is what I imagine RTD was going for?
The Slitheen are a fun concept. Space mobsters that look like ET's pregnant mother. I'm rambling but overall as a 2 parter... 6/10, it's fun.

Sorry for the ramble.

Ramble away! That's about a quarter the length of some of the shite I come out with on here. The more rambling the merrier, as far as I'm concerned.

Also, space mobsters might be a typo, but if not it's a spot-on description of the Slitheen. Criminal family killing anyone they have to in order to make a dime.

RetroRobot

Quote from: Mister Six on July 02, 2022, 08:30:24 PMRTD's vision for Torchwood might have been as trashy, puerile and adolescent as the show turned out to be (and he was obviously on board with the sex monster, which is just embarrassing), but the problems extend far beyond that - inconsistent characterisation (why would autopsy man Owen be the one that vomits when he sees the mutilated corpse in Countrycide?), unbelievably poor dialogue, dismal plotting, the same bloody prop being used for two different functions etc etc.

Ramble away! That's about a quarter the length of some of the shite I come out with on here. The more rambling the merrier, as far as I'm concerned.

Also, space mobsters might be a typo, but if not it's a spot-on description of the Slitheen. Criminal family killing anyone they have to in order to make a dime.

Mobsters wasn't a typo! They're a crime family right?

H-O-W-L

Time for me to blitz the first half of the season in two nights to catch up. I've rewatched the show repeatedly since airing (because I always have some pish on in my 2nd monitor anyway) so I'll not be too behind. I've already read the whole thread anyway, so I'm up to date in general.

Do love the intro of Rose a lot. How it sells her as a real person, and the relatable banality of her life and all, you know? Not to sound like a cunt, because I am (formerly, now disabled) shopworking chip eating scum myself, but I love that she really is just like... absolutely ground-level working-class.

Later companions dip up and down but when we reach Clara it's just impossible for me to understand or relate to her background because she seems to be from such a higher intellectual/social starting point. Not that I have issues relating to middle/upper class people empathetically, y'know -- but it's harder for me to self-insert as them. Which is important, because Rose is meant to be, in some ways, a self insert for the viewer. Especially with this being the very first season of the revival. I'd argue with myself that maybe this escalation was necessary, I guess, to keep the characters feeling different, but I dunno. I really like how S1 Rose is just 100% fucking real.

Up next is Dalek, innit? That's one of those episodes that really gets Rose proper well, and probably one of S1's best episodes, if not one of the best episodes of the entire revived series -- and I say that as someone that's sick to fucking death of the Daleks and their megakiller nature.

Mister Six

Quote from: RetroRobot on July 02, 2022, 09:13:30 PMMobsters wasn't a typo! They're a crime family right?

Yeah, I just thought it was a typo for "space monsters". Instead it's a solid pun. Fair play!