Blair refused Bush offer to keep British troops out of Iraq...

[Ambient Sheep]

...so says a new "impressively sourced" book by the Watergate journalist Bob Woodward, mentioned in this Guardian article:

Tony Blair rejected George Bush's offer of keeping British troops out of Iraq, it emerged yesterday, as the two leaders mounted a united front on the year-long campaign.

The US president welcomed his closest ally to the White House on a day when an impressively sourced book by the Watergate journalist Bob Woodward laid bare damaging revelations of their conduct in the run-up to the war.

In the book, Plan of Attack, Mr Woodward writes that Mr Bush offered Mr Blair the option of keeping British troops out of the war because he was so concerned that the government might fall. Mr Blair rejected the offer.

The book, to be serialised in the Washington Post today, also says that Mr Bush asked the Pentagon to draw up plans for the invasion of Iraq as early as November 2001, keeping it a secret from the CIA and his national security staff.

The disclosures are provocative. Mr Blair will be asked to justify a decision to go to war when he had a chance to keep British troops out of harm's way with no political sanction.

For Mr Bush, who has suffered a steady erosion in his approval ratings, it becomes even more urgent to turn the page on Iraq before it begins to hurt him in the elections in November. An opinion poll released yesterday by the National Annenberg Election Survey found that 56% of Americans now believe the president has no clear plan for resolving the situation in Iraq.

Mind you, I find it difficult to believe that Bush would give a flying one about whether the Blair government fell or not.  Unless they were genuinely worried that the Lib Dems might get in.  Still, they have ways of solving THAT problem, don't they?  Just ask Charles "Does he have a drink problem?" Kennedy...

[Crazy Penis]

I don't think that Bush would be worried which Government was in. He probably would just prefer to keep the good relationship he has with Blair if he could.
We use their Tomahawk missiles, which means that we need their satellite guidance system to be able to launch a missile. Therefore, its as if we need their permission to go to war, and we are probably obliged to help them out when they say too.
If we had taken Bin Laden's offer along with the UN and that had of put us on bad terms with the US it would render us (H)armless.
Bush has 'given us permission' to leave Iraq because of his preference but really it doesn't depend on which government is in as to whether we always join forces with the US because we don't really have a choice.
Of course, the developement of the Eurofighter and Europe's further developement of a satellite guidance system to rival the US GPS hasn't made Bush too happy.
The sources for  most of the information I read about these topics are www.rense.com and www.tetrahedron.org
Think what you may :)

[Pinball]

Well said. Britain's nuclear deterrent is American, so we don't have an independent capability. We depend on US government codes and Lockheed Martin support, from whom Thatcher bought Trident. Incidentally at the time there was debate that the UK should buy British, but "patriotic" Thatcher bought it from Reagan, probably as he blackmailed her to do so by threatening to remove US facilities from the UK. So the UK has moved from a position of partial military dependence on the US in the 1980s to almost complete dependence now. IMO the fact Thatcher bought Trident (for £100 billion I think??) is the only reason she had a "special relationship" with Ray-Gun. There's no special relationship. It's business. And we're America's bitch.

The only way this situation could be changed is if the UK builds its own nuclear deterrent when Trident is upgraded. Expect lots of US lobbying to prevent this happening. The joke is that all of this military nuclear dependence shenanigans is supposed to be secret and is not publically disclosed by "our" government. Similarly, Echelon still does not officially exist, even though ex-CIA director Woolsey has admitted it exists, the Australian Foreign Ministry has done the same, and the European Parliament published a report on Echelon in 1998. Menwith Hill in Yorkshire (which along with GCHQ in Cheltenham is where Echelon is based) is currently having a £1 billion upgrade BTW, paid for by the US government, and building on the TWAT "opportunity".

Good to live in a free society, which is what our troops are dying for in Iraq. Or is it oil?

[Dangermouse]

Similarly, Echelon still does not officially exist, even though ex-CIA director Woolsey has admitted it exists, the Australian Foreign Ministry has done the same, and the European Parliament published a report on Echelon in 1998. Menwith Hill in Yorkshire (which along with GCHQ in Cheltenham is where Echelon is based)

Have you got any further info on Echelon? I'm interested in hearing more about them.

Also I thought GCHQ was near High Wycombe?

[Crazy Penis]

Or is it oil?

I don't think its just oil.
I do remember reading a supposed quote from Bush to Al-Quaeda "You give us your carpet of oil or we'll give you a carpet of bombs" and in June 2001 (I'm doing this from memory so I can't be accurate) they laid out plans to invade Afghanistan on 18/09/2001.
I lost that article before consulting the sources so I won't believe it fully.

I think that Israel has something to do with it, be it that they want to remain the biggest nuclear power in the middle east, or whether it has something to do with the monitoring of worldwide (US in particular) telecommunications being done by an Israeli company. A quote "Don't you worry about America, we have total control over America." has me believing that Israel has something to do with it all.

As for the Lib Dem's, I considered voting for them last time, but didn't. I'll probably not ever vote unless the 'All Night Party' went national.

[Pinball]

Similarly, Echelon still does not officially exist, even though ex-CIA director Woolsey has admitted it exists, the Australian Foreign Ministry has done the same, and the European Parliament published a report on Echelon in 1998. Menwith Hill in Yorkshire (which along with GCHQ in Cheltenham is where Echelon is based)

Have you got any further info on Echelon? I'm interested in hearing more about them.

Also I thought GCHQ was near High Wycombe?

Q&A (BBC): What you need to know about Echelon

Information about GCHQ Cheltenham

[Pinball]

The impressive £337m Cheltenham building that became the home of GCHQ last year is nicknamed "the doughnut".

It was built on a circular design, big enough to house the old Wembley Stadium, including a courtyard large enough to take the Royal Albert Hall.

This is where our fucking taxes are blown.

[Dangermouse]

Cheers Pinball.

[Pinball]

Cheers Pinball.

My pleasure.

"Helping to keep the world realistically paranoid"

[weekender]

"Helping to keep the world realistically paranoid"

AKA helping to scare the idiots into submission.

You can carry on with your paranoid stuff, but I bet you've been paid off by the government...

[Pinball]

hehehe Weekender, you're so witty ;-)

<speaks into watch> "This one knows. Kill him"

[Ambient Sheep]

You can carry on with your paranoid stuff, but I bet you've been paid off by the government...

No, no, no.  Wrong chap.  That's Timmay you're thinking of.

Or *is* it?

[Pinball]

You can carry on with your paranoid stuff, but I bet you've been paid off by the government...

No, no, no.  Wrong chap.  That's Timmay you're thinking of.

Or *is* it?

Yes!!!! Technology no-one has heard of yet, but they have... ;-)

[fanny splendid]

Are you watching 'Enemy of the State'? Pinball

[european son]

Are you watching 'Enemy of the State'? Pinball

he better not be watching it on Digital..... they can "tag"programs the same way they tag books y'know. fact.

[Pinball]

Are you watching 'Enemy of the State'? Pinball

he better not be watching it on Digital..... they can "tag"programs the same way they tag books y'know. fact.

Got the DVD - great film albeit it doesn't go far enough, but then if it were more realistic the protagonists would already be dead...

Sky can only track your viewing habits if the phone line's plugged in tho ;-)

<I'm typing this naked in a Faraday cage>