The Carry On films

[mycroft]

Nope, it doesn't.

[Ignatius_S]

I'm a big fan of Matron - Sid, Bresslaw, Maynard and Cope attempting a heist to nick contraceptive pills, Hattie and Ken's brilliant chemistry brought to the forefront, Terry Scott excellent as a pervy doctor, Connor doing all his physical stuff... What else could you ask for?

Snap - when I've got a bit more time, I'm going to respond to Famous Mortimer (and a couple of other posters) and was going to mention that it's really my favourite one from the later period and out of the medical ones, believe it's stronger than Carry on Again Doctor. Two bits I particularly like are:

James, Bresslaw and Maynard are planning a job but lose focus and start to argue about bus routes.

Jacques beginning to apologise to Sir Bernard(?) and Williams cuts her off - 'Please Matron, we're all adult people. What you get up to Dr Goode is no concern of mine... no matter how disgusting it is.'

[mycroft]

Jacques beginning to apologise to Sir Bernard(?) and Williams cuts her off - 'Please Matron, we're all adult people. What you get up to Dr Goode is no concern of mine... no matter how disgusting it is.'

I can just hear him delivering that. Brilliant. I'd forgotten that whole subplot of Jacques and Hawtrey being secret fans of a cheesy soap, as well.

I watched Follow That Camel! for the first time recently, and can confirm everyone else's misgivings about it. It's well-filmed, there are a couple of good lines in there, and Bresslaw is great as always, but it just doesn't hang together as well as others. Phil Silvers is obviously a factor, but he does better than I'd been lead to expect from what I'd read. It is probably also the rapiest film of the entire series.

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

James, Bresslaw and Maynard are planning a job but lose focus and start to argue about bus routes.

That's a top scene.Particularly when Sid James seems to have got everyone focussed back onto their daring robbery plan, then, with a  brilliant "hang on a minute" expression on his face says something like 'Hold on; you're both wrong...that bus goes to...' (cannae remember the exact lines, been years since I saw it; that scene *always* used to make me laff, though.)

[imitationleather]

Even Emanuelle?

Yes. I don't see what's wrong with it at all.

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

I can just hear him delivering that. Brilliant. I'd forgotten that whole subplot of Jacques and Hawtrey being secret fans of a cheesy soap, as well.

I watched Follow That Camel! for the first time recently, and can confirm everyone else's misgivings about it. It's well-filmed, there are a couple of good lines in there, and Bresslaw is great as always, but it just doesn't hang together as well as others. Phil Silvers is obviously a factor, but he does better than I'd been lead to expect from what I'd read. It is probably also the rapiest film of the entire series.

"Oooh! What a funny way to punch my ticket! By forcing your engorged penis up my vagina!" (her giggly pronouncements seem to suggest that she's enjoying herself, though, dunno how far you could say those scenes were rapey. See also those scenes with Susan "Suse" George and him out of "Murphy's Mob" and his mate in "Carry On Being Straw Dogs.")

[Natnar]

So what's Carry On Laughing the TV Series like? I noticed that Sainburys were selling the Complete Carry On DVD boxset for £25 the other week that had all the films (apart from Columbus) and all the episodes of the TV show as well.

[Famous Mortimer]

Bloody hell, that's a decent price. Be rude not to for £25.

[Panbaams]

I've always had the thing where, if I'm flicking through the TV channels and a Carry On film's on, I can watch it for a bit and quite enjoy it. But whenever I've made a point of watching one – "Oh, Carry On Screaming (or whatever) starts in ten minutes, that's supposed to be one of the good ones" – it's always a let-down.

Didn't they do fantastic business at the UK box office, at least until the last few? I'm sure I've read that some of the 60s/70s ones took more money than that year's Bond movie.

[Ignatius_S]

So what's Carry On Laughing the TV Series like? I noticed that Sainburys were selling the Complete Carry On DVD boxset for £25 the other week that had all the films (apart from Columbus) and all the episodes of the TV show as well.

I think the only one that I've seen was one of the Christmas specials (which I don't think are included in this box set) and it was dreadful – the over-riding memory was Sid James as a seedy department store Santa enticing Barbara Windsor's schoolgirl to sit on his lap.

Not that long ago, I bought that set at Sainsbury's but haven't gotten round to watching the Carry On Laughing. I don't hold too much hope, but have heard some not too bad things but they're very much in the shadow of the films, lacks key cast members and is quite limited by being restricted to the half-hour (more like 25 minute) format. 

However, it's still a nice bonus and the set doesn't skimp on extras. For instance, there are audio commentaries, trivia, trailers, interviews and on location features. Also, the What's a Carry On? documentary is included.

I've also got a feeling that the television play Cor, Blimey! is included but am probably wrong about that as can't see a mention online about it – however, I seem to remember being surprised that it was on there (although there is some logic because the DVD set is by ITV, which produced the play).

Usually, the set is a fair bit more - I think this is the cheapest it's been and wouldn't expect that to change so it's a good buy.

I've always had the thing where, if I'm flicking through the TV channels and a Carry On film's on, I can watch it for a bit and quite enjoy it. But whenever I've made a point of watching one – "Oh, Carry On Screaming (or whatever) starts in ten minutes, that's supposed to be one of the good ones" – it's always a let-down...

One thing that I find interesting about the films is that it's quite common for someone to say that they really like one that's meant to be one of the worst, or not to like one that's generally thought to be the better.

I read a Russ Meyer biography, where he was quoted as saying that his films were basically live-action cartoons, where someone can just watch for ten minutes part-way through and enjoy it. Thinking about what you said, I think quite a lot of the Carry On films were a little like that – which is why  with the clip series work (and indeed, why a lot of silent comedies could be packaged the same way).

....Didn't they do fantastic business at the UK box office, at least until the last few? I'm sure I've read that some of the 60s/70s ones took more money than that year's Bond movie.

Yes, they were incredibly successful. Sargeant, for instance, was (IIRC) the third biggest grossing film that year at the UK box office. I remember reading that Loving, one towards the end, was something like the fourth most popular British film that year.

Also, they did well overseas – Nurse, it's claimed, was shown in American cinemas for well over two years.

[Harry Badger]

Yes, they were incredibly successful. Sargeant, for instance, was (IIRC) the third biggest grossing film that year at the UK box office. I remember reading that Loving, one towards the end, was something like the fourth most popular British film that year.

Also, they did well overseas – Nurse, it's claimed, was shown in American cinemas for well over two years.

One of the notable failures was Convenience, due to the aforementioned anti-union theme which presumably did not appeal to the largely union member Carry On audience.

[ColonelVolestrangler]

So what's Carry On Laughing the TV Series like? I noticed that Sainburys were selling the Complete Carry On DVD boxset for £25 the other week that had all the films (apart from Columbus) and all the episodes of the TV show as well.

In the main, the TV series is pretty dreadful. It makes the films look lavishly budgeted, subtle and underplayed. There are a couple of okay-ish episodes - mainly the three or four with Sid in them - but they miss having Kenneth Williams - or Frankie Howerd substituting for Ken - on board. The most interesting one, 'An Orgy with Bess', is written by Barry Cryer and Disk Vosburgh in the style of a Marx Brothers film (some of the gags re-appeared in Vosburgh's Marx pastiche, 'A Night in the Ukraine'), and though Sid and Hattie don't perform it as such, their characters are written as Groucho and Margaret Dumont.

Those Carry On Christmas specials are a mixed bag. The best is the first one, which has Frankie Howerd guest starring and stealing the show. But as Ignatius_S says, there are some extremely dodgy gags in the later ones, like Santa Sid leching over Barbara Windsor's schoolgirl, or a version of Aladdin with rape gags thrown in.

[shiftwork2]

Anyone who has an interest in Carry On and who hasn't read the Kenneth Williams Diaries should obviously get on and read it.  He did look down on it all slightly but he had a lot of affection for most of the cast (notably not Sid James who he thought was one-note) and they really were a gang who enjoyed making films together.  They kept going back for the fun of it really, as already mentioned they were paid a pittance.

[Natnar]

I think the only one that I've seen was one of the Christmas specials (which I don't think are included in this box set) and it was dreadful – the over-riding memory was Sid James as a seedy department store Santa enticing Barbara Windsor's schoolgirl to sit on his lap.

Not that long ago, I bought that set at Sainsbury's but haven't gotten round to watching the Carry On Laughing. I don't hold too much hope, but have heard some not too bad things but they're very much in the shadow of the films, lacks key cast members and is quite limited by being restricted to the half-hour (more like 25 minute) format. 

However, it's still a nice bonus and the set doesn't skimp on extras. For instance, there are audio commentaries, trivia, trailers, interviews and on location features. Also, the What's a Carry On? documentary is included.

I've also got a feeling that the television play Cor, Blimey! is included but am probably wrong about that as can't see a mention online about it – however, I seem to remember being surprised that it was on there (although there is some logic because the DVD set is by ITV, which produced the play).

Usually, the set is a fair bit more - I think this is the cheapest it's been and wouldn't expect that to change so it's a good buy.

Ah, i was curious how the whole Carry On "feel" translated onto TV. What are the commentaries like?

[Ignatius_S]

Ah, i was curious how the whole Carry On "feel" translated onto TV. What are the commentaries like?

Actually, I've only listened to a bit of one but have been planning to make an concerted effort to listen to the whole lot. All of the films have commentaries and they feature a good range of contributors - obviously, so many of the key cast members had passed away, but they did a decent job at who takes part. However, Windsor might be a notable exception.

[Famous Mortimer]

I've also got a feeling that the television play Cor, Blimey! is included but am probably wrong about that as can't see a mention online about it – however, I seem to remember being surprised that it was on there (although there is some logic because the DVD set is by ITV, which produced the play).

If it's on there, it's not listed on the outside of the box, because I just got off work, went to Sainsbury's and bought it. It does say "Special features include", so it might be there. I'll have a gander in a bit.

[mycroft]

Anyone who has an interest in Carry On and who hasn't read the Kenneth Williams Diaries should obviously get on and read it.  He did look down on it all slightly but he had a lot of affection for most of the cast (notably not Sid James who he thought was one-note) and they really were a gang who enjoyed making films together.  They kept going back for the fun of it really, as already mentioned they were paid a pittance.

Even though his hatred for Sid is now a thing of showbiz legend, I find it interesting that Ken was still always able to compliment him (and others he didn't get on with) at various times. There's one entry, for example, where he mentions spending the day doing scenes (for Cruising, I think) with Sid, and says he was very good. Then there was the one where they spent a day in Sid's caravan while rain had stopped filming, bitching about Hancock.

[Morrison Lard]

I like most of the Carry On franchise, with the obvious notable exceptions.

Some of them lasses;
Sally Geeson, Margaret Nolan, Valerie Leon. Even Alma off Coro..

Cor blimey! Not fuckin arf Syd.

[Harry Badger]

Even though his hatred for Sid is now a thing of showbiz legend, I find it interesting that Ken was still always able to compliment him (and others he didn't get on with) at various times. There's one entry, for example, where he mentions spending the day doing scenes (for Cruising, I think) with Sid, and says he was very good. Then there was the one where they spent a day in Sid's caravan while rain had stopped filming, bitching about Hancock.

Both having been kicked off Hancock for upstaging him, weren't they?

Carry On Jack, one of the weakest and most forgotten in the series resulted in one of the funniest entries in the Diaries:

"All day in the bloody rowing boat, until I was aching all over. Charles Hawtrey was pissed. Breath smelled appallingly. It's a disgrace. Still, one must be charitable"

[Glebe]

"All day in the bloody rowing boat, until I was aching all over. Charles Hawtrey was pissed. Breath smelled appallingly. It's a disgrace. Still, one must be charitable"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc9eqv9fACI

Am I right in assuming Kenneth Williams and Sid James not getting on was mainly down to the former? As far as I'm aware Sid really was a bit of a rough diamond, he liked to drink and gamble and I think he did have an affair with Barbara Windsor (which he was deeply sorry for, reportedly), but he was apparently an incredibly nice guy, prone to kindness and very supportive of fellow actors. Williams was a famously bitchy character... I suppose he was pretty insecure in himself for very reasons. He seemed to be a little ashamed of his working class roots and being gay at that time was obviously no picnic. Not to mention being OCD about germs and the like.

[mycroft]

I think there was just something about Sid in particular that rubbed him up the wrong way - he had nothing but praise for Hattie, Bresslaw, Kenneth Connor and Jim Dale, he loved Babs and he famously asked Joan Sims to marry him twice (only proposals the poor woman ever had).

[Ignatius_S]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc9eqv9fACI

Am I right in assuming Kenneth Williams and Sid James not getting on was mainly down to the former?

Can't watch the clip at the moment, but I would the most compelling reasons – there wasn't just one – were:

• Personality clash, pure and simple.
• Williams felts antipathy towards James over his experience on Hancock's Half Hour (I'm happy to expand upon this but don't want to derail the thread – well not too much anyway).
• James' homophobia – perceived or actual.
• Jealousy over Barbara Windsor – both were exceptionally close to her and I would be surprised that neither resented the other's relationship.

... As far as I'm aware Sid really was a bit of a rough diamond, he liked to drink and gamble and I think he did have an affair with Barbara Windsor (which he was deeply sorry for, reportedly), but he was apparently an incredibly nice guy, prone to kindness and very supportive of fellow actors...

Can't say that I recall James being apologetic about the affair of Windsor – but if he was, what about all the others? He was a rampant adulterer. As to his attitude to women, although his last wife has strenuously denied that James ever hit her, the claims about domestic violence in the first marriage don't sound out of the realms of imagination– it was a very strained relationship, they only married because he got her pregnant. With the first marriage, if there wasn't any physical violence, then I think anyone would have a hard job trying to prove that there wasn't any mental cruelty or that James was a devoted husband.

...Williams was a famously bitchy character...

As mycroft says, Williams could be generous in praise. The reputation of his bitchiness comes from the diaries and chat show appearances (mainly the first). With the latter, I would argue that he was performing, so it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt and/or seen as classic theoretical bitching (i.e. intending to be amusing and over the top). With the diaries, Williams used these as a confidante – it's very clear from entries that he's sometimes blowing off steam; it's a substitute for speaking to a loved one.

After a bad day, have you ever spoken about someone more harshly about someone that you would have normally and perhaps a little unfairly? If not, you're more of a saint than most people!

Williams was aware that people would read his diaries after his death, but to his credit (in my opinion) he didn't revise them to give a better impression of himself.

... He seemed to be a little ashamed of his working class roots and being gay at that time was obviously no picnic...

Not sure about that and if anything, there was a certain amount of pride. With regards to his homosexuality, there was religious guilt.

...Not to mention being OCD about germs and the like.

One book I've mentioned previously is the biography by Chris Stevens and that he does a good job in countering various claims about Williams. I was swayed by the case for Williams not being anything like as OCD as he's made out to be (e.g. the famous refusal of letting guests use his toilet was a method of getting rid of guests and the rule didn't apply to all). Although I would argue that there firm foundations for such claims, the claims have been overstated and overused to portray Williams as an unhappy weirdo.

[Ignatius_S]

Both having been kicked off Hancock for upstaging him, weren't they?...

Personally, I think there's a strong element of that. Also, I think Robert Ross in a biography about Sid (I haven't read it, incidentally but it's not meant to be that great) suggests that James' film career was something that Hancock grew jealous of.

As well as Williams and James, Graham Stark felt he was treated shabbily by Hancock and I think Galton & Simpson deserved better. Personally, I think there was a common element in all of those relationships, where, when it ended, Hancock avoided confrontation and dealing with people face to face or honestly.

[Blumf]

• Williams felts antipathy towards James over his experience on Hancock's Half Hour (I'm happy to expand upon this but don't want to derail the thread – well not too much anyway).

Please do (don't think I could put in the time/effort to go through all these biogs myself. It's interesting though)

Not sure about that and if anything, there was a certain amount of pride. With regards to his homosexuality, there was religious guilt.

Didn't realise he was particularly religious. Or was it just a hangover from upbringing?

[elnombre]

R.E. his working class roots and upbringing, Kenneth does say in his diaries:

'I didn't like the King's Cross world: it was grimy and dirty. I always envisioned myself in much more romantic and grand surroundings. I never really thought that I belonged to the working-class area at all.'

[mycroft]

Didn't realise he was particularly religious. Or was it just a hangover from upbringing?

I don't know if he was a regular church-goer - he was part of some obscure Protestant sect that got absorbed into the Methodists - but the fact he was quite religious does spring up throughout the diaries. Never seems to bring him any comfort, though.

[Brundle-Fly]

Anyone who has an interest in Carry On and who hasn't read the Kenneth Williams Diaries should obviously get on and read it.  He did look down on it all slightly but he had a lot of affection for most of the cast (notably not Sid James who he thought was one-note) and they really were a gang who enjoyed making films together.  They kept going back for the fun of it really, as already mentioned they were paid a pittance.

According to his diaries, Kenny was fucked off with Cribbins though in Carry On Jack (1963) complaining that he gave him a dead arm. Oh, Bernard.

I once asked my aged parents if they ever went to see a Carry On film at the cinema during the sixties, and my father replied that most people he knew thought the films were low rent, embarrassing crap.  I suppose, it would be like my imaginary children asking what I made of the Police Academy franchise today?

[biggytitbo]

I went to see police academy 6 at the pictures and I would almost certainly have seen carry on girls at the pictures if I was alive at that time. I certainly went to see Carry on Columbus, although that didn't help because it was awful.  But every carry on prior  to
England has something to recommended it IMO.

[Glebe]

Thanks for the info, Ignatius. Anything I know about the Carry On gang is mainly from documentaries and the like.

[kidsick5000]

Always found ...Convenience oddly political. Also wondered if they ditched the betting budgie plot in favour of more union shenanigans.
I can't recall any other of the Carry Ons dropping a plotline so obviously.

Also, was general knowledge so poor in the 60s that everyone accepted that Cleopatra was around at the time of cavemen?