The Carry On films

[daf]

Butterworth was one of the few Carry On men Kenneth Williams got on with.

Big Berny Bresslaw too.

Both in 1960s Doctor Who, of course (BB as an 'Ice Warrior' and PB as the magnificent 'Meddling Monk')

[Ignatius_S]

Haha classic!

Oh that's great to hear - that bit in Behind reminiscing with Joan Sims in the Caravan is still probably my favourite bit - I love her too! "(my brother, the count!")

Haha, that's a lovely one.

Speaking of Butterworth, It reminds me of a story that Jim Dale told in his show, Just Jim. During the making of a Carry On, Williams (Jim says he was never close to the other actors mainly as soon as shooting was over, he wanted to get back to his young family, but described Ken as being 'his mate' on the Carry Ons) found him and said 'I don't know what you have done to Peter, but you best avoid him... he's absolutely furious with you.'

Dale had no idea what he had done but followed the advice, particularly when he noticed Butterworth looking at him rather peculiarly.  However, after a day or two, he thought this was getting ridiculous and went to clear the air.

'Look, Peter, I'm not sure what I have done to upset but I'm really sorry...'

'Sorry?" Butterworth looked confused, 'I thought I had upset you!'

'Who told you that?" said Dale, just before penny dropped and both started shouting for Williams.

[Ignatius_S]

Some recent stuff on BBC Radio: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m001pzx0

The other programmes broadcast at same time are no longer available (natch).

[dontpaintyourteeth]

Which Carry On regular has the most deso wiki? It's probably Hawtrey but Williams and Jacques aren't far behind for generally tragic events

[Ignatius_S]

Which Carry On regular has the most deso wiki? It's probably Hawtrey but Williams and Jacques aren't far behind for generally tragic events

Yeah, not sure you should be using Wikipedia as a yardstick.

[Maurice Yeatman]

Butterworth and Hawtrey in happier times

[dontpaintyourteeth]

Yeah, not sure you should be using Wikipedia as a yardstick.

k

[imitationleather]

I'd put my entire savings (£0) on Hawtrey being the most damaged one. Something terrible happened to him and he never felt ready to work through it. Proper British, through and through.

[Armin Meiwes]

Which Carry On regular has the most deso wiki? It's probably Hawtrey but Williams and Jacques aren't far behind for generally tragic events

Oof yeah you're not wrong (from Hawtreys):

"Just nine mourners attended; no friends or family were there."

[Ignatius_S]

k

Wikipedia can't be relied on. The bit in Williams' about his father's death is rather misleading I would say - for instance, a source is cited about one aspect but that same source disputes that claim that Williams didn't get on with his father as per the entry; it makes a very strong argument why this wasn't the case and why the person who claimed this should be viewed with some caution.

I mentioned in another thread about how poor the Harry H Corbett one is - it trots out the tired old cliches, which have been debunked.

[Ignatius_S]

DP.

[jamiefairlie]

Which Carry On regular has the most deso wiki? It's probably Hawtrey but Williams and Jacques aren't far behind for generally tragic events

 Auntie Babs shagging James purely out of exhaustion at fending off his constant attempts

[Maurice Yeatman]

Wikipedia at least seems to go with the least sensational version of Hawtrey's house fire, the cigarette accidentally left burning on the sofa. A lot of media reports said that the rent boy/professional underage sex worker had started the fire deliberately after Hawtrey refused to pay him.
Anyway I guess that story might have accounted for people staying away from the funeral.

[Ignatius_S]

Auntie Babs shagging James purely out of exhaustion at fending off his constant attempts

According to her, a lot was to do that she felt sorry for James and thought it would get it out of his system, which she said was a big mistake as that made things worse.

[Maurice Yeatman]

It wasn't that long ago as a fan of Edmund Crispin's sophisticated and very funny detective novels (the Gervase Fen series), that I found out the author was the composer Bruce Montgomery using a pseudonym.
He wrote the music for some of the Carry Ons. Might put this on at a party if I get the chance:

[Phoenix Lazarus]

With Hawtrey, I believe he found some serious success at an early age, and developed high expectations, then was embittered by finishing up slumming it in low comedy.

[The Bumlord]

With Hawtrey, I believe he found some serious success at an early age, and developed high expectations, then was embittered by finishing up slumming it in low comedy.

He was in a 40s Will Hay film in which he looks not a day over 50.

[lauraxsynthesis]

*Puts on Powell & Pressburger fan hat*

*clears throat*

Hawtrey appeared twice in the P&P classic A Canterbury Tale in 1942.

(Doesn't look young even then the wee fella)

[lauraxsynthesis]

Talbot Rothwell who was in Stalag Luft III with Butterworth during the War (Butterworth was one of the vaulters covering for the escapers during the famous Wooden Horse escape attempt!)

Amazing!

[non capisco]

He also wanders past the action for all of twenty seconds talking about the mating habits of oysters in Hitchcock's excellent 30s British film Sabotage. Billed as 'studious youth at the aquarium', looks and sounds exactly the same as he does as a full grown adult in all the Carry Ons.

[Ignatius_S]

With Hawtrey, I believe he found some serious success at an early age, and developed high expectations, then was embittered by finishing up slumming it in low comedy.

I think there's been a tendency to sometimes gild the lily about how much a success Hawtrey had when young. He did start performing young, but his real breakthrough was having a small supporting role as one of the Wild Boys in a very successful production of Peter at the ripe old age of 17. When it was revived five years later, Hawtrey got a role that was still supporting but larger and got him press attention; the play Jiggery Pokery, IIRC. took a few dramatic licenses and conflated this, making the initial role sounding more impressive.

There was steady, but relatively unspectacular work on stage and screen but being cast in Boys Will Be Boys starring Will Hay was significant. Although a small role, Hay was a big comedy star and this film was hit and helped him become a star - so a good project to be attached to and would lead to working in a few more Hay films with meatier roles. With the final one, The Goose Steps Out, a lot of reviewers these days - this was rally seen in a reissue a few years ago - comment that it's a standout performance only second to Hay.

The usual story at this point that Hawtrey overplayed his hand with Hay, demanded more money and bigger roles, which ended their association and this would set a precedence for the future. I've heard this was a source of bitterness for Hawtrey, but view that with caution.

One reason often cited is that Hay didn't want to be share a spotlight - however, at the same time this was happening, Hay was forging an onscreen partnership with Claude Hubert. In any case, Hay would only make one more feature film due ill-health.

After illness kiboshed Hay's film career and two years are he last worked with Hawtrey, Hay starred in a (short-lived) BBC radio show. Hawtrey co-starred so maybe he hadn't burned all his bridges...

By the time of the first Carry On, Hawtrey was one of the stars of The Army Game, a hugely successful ITV sitcom, which Carry On Sergeant exploited massively. Fellow TV cost-stars were William Hartnell and Norman Rossington was hired. The film was a massive success and the rest was history.

The problem for Hawtrey was like a lot of actors, who are popular with the public due to work in successful, ensemble work, interpreting that as they are the star and behaving accordingly; that led to disputes over billing. This coincided with an increasing and dreadful drink problem, which affected his work and increasingly bizarre and unreasonable behaviour, which fewer people would put up with professionally or personally, leading to increasing bitterness and uncharming behaviour.

[Ignatius_S]

He also wanders past the action for all of twenty seconds talking about the mating habits of oysters in Hitchcock's excellent 30s British film Sabotage. Billed as 'studious youth at the aquarium', looks and sounds exactly the same as he does as a full grown adult in all the Carry Ons.

If you contrast that with the Will Hay films, it's different kind of performance and he does pass as younger, I would say.

The Goose Steps Out came out the same year as The Canterbury Tale but the performance that Laura posted is rather different. As I mentioned, with the former, a lot of reviewers point out how good Hawtrey is and is second only to Hay - given, that Peter Ustinov is in that film as well (playing a student, as is Hawtrey) that's saying something. It would be very easy for reviewers to make sneering comments based on what Hawtrey in later life, but it's refreshing to concentrate on the positive.

Hawtrey was a decent radio performer and was still able to work in the field at the end of his career, when he was finding it harder and harder to get other types of work. In happy times, he co-starred with Patricia Hayes in the long-running children show, Norman and Henry Bones, the Boy Detectives. When they took on the roles, Norman was meant to be 16 and Henry, 14 - Hawtrey and Hayes were approximately 29 and 34. There's only one full episode in existence, which the Beeb sometimes broadcasts - Hawtrey was 35 and Hayes 40 when that was recorded and I was flabbergasted when I learned that; I wouldn't have recognised who the performers were and assumed that they were considerably younger at the time.

[daf]

This might be completey wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that one of Hawtrey's quirks was always delivering his lines with his face facing squarely down the barrel of the lens - no matter who he's supposed to be talking to in a scene. Probably a legacy of being on the variety stage and not wanting to be upstaged (or more likely attempting to upstage everyone else!)

[Phoenix Lazarus]

Quote from: wiki
It was claimed that on his deathbed he threw a vase at his nurse who asked for an autograph

To be fair, you couldn't really blame him.

[checkoutgirl]

Carry On films were my first serious obsession and red flag that I had autism.

What's the connection?

[lauraxsynthesis]

Some recent stuff on BBC Radio: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m001pzx0

The other programmes broadcast at same time are no longer available (natch).

Those were terrific! I really ought to check out 4x more often.

The bit where Jim Dale talked about the way the actors worked with each other - taking their turn to be in the spotlight on screen and the others all "giving" and supporting the person the scene was focusing on. Wonderful.

[Phoenix Lazarus]

What's the connection?

It was presumably his obsessiveness that alerted him.

[imitationleather]

As Sleaford Mods would say while covering West End Girls, "YEAH!"