Star Trek - Voyager

[Malcy]

It would also be pretty annoying to erase the events of an entire year's worth of episodes, Dallas style. Maybe they could have pulled it off - it's not as though rich character development was a hallmark of the show. But I think it would have irritated audiences.

I suppose they could have used the temporal shielding to stay unaffected by a reset.

[purlieu]

Yeah, although the reset button was pretty much obvious from the start of the story, even then it still slightly felt like a cop out, so to do it after the year would have been horrible.

[Mobbd]

It would also be pretty annoying to erase the events of an entire year's worth of episodes, Dallas style. Maybe they could have pulled it off - it's not as though rich character development was a hallmark of the show. But I think it would have irritated audiences.

Agreed. And resetting after a whole real-time year would have been really annoying, especially in a show whose invisible extra character is momentum.

[Malcy]

I think if syndication wasn't a factor and the ship was immune to any reset then character development may have stayed.

Om another note this week's Lower Decks has a character refer to it as VOY. Similar to the TOS era but without it being an acronym (Those Old Scientists). The Trekcore review stated that

Star Trek: Lower Decks appears to take a definitive stand on the age-old debate about whether Star Trek: Voyager's acronym is VOY or VGR: VOY is now canon!

Age-old debate? I have NEVER seen Voyager referenced as VGR!

[petril]

VGR?

V O Y A G E R.... Voyager 6?

[mothman]

Wait - we made V'GER? GOD DAMN US! GOD DAMN US ALL TO HELL!

[purlieu]

I've only ever seen it written as VOY.

Random Thoughts. Another one of those that feels really generic in the first half but becomes more interesting with some slightly-too-late plot developments. Possibly a touch less thought-provoking in an era where drug decriminalisation is an actual thing, but decent.

Concerning Flight. For all the futuristic elements in Star Trek, there's one thing that always makes me fail to suspend my disbelief: the idea that historical characters can be brought back as holograms. We don't know even remotely enough about Da Vinci as a person to make anything resembling a realistic model of his personality, and yet we're encouraged to believe that this is still 'him'. The idea has always bugged me.
Anyway, that was a very pleasant bit of fluff. Best scene was, typically, the brief interjection of Seven and the Doctor.

[Wonderful Butternut]

Random Thoughts. Another one of those that feels really generic in the first half but becomes more interesting with some slightly-too-late plot developments. Possibly a touch less thought-provoking in an era where drug decriminalisation is an actual thing, but decent.

The crew seemed a bit passive about the aliens using their mind thingy on Torres in this one. Those guys have never encountered a Human or a Klingon before, much less a Human/Klingon hybrid. Wanna be awfully sure they aren't going to turn her into a vegetable.

Also when Tuvok breaks the guy's brain with all the violent thoughts he normally suppresses, there are brief shots from Event Horizon thrown in.

[purlieu]

Also when Tuvok breaks the guy's brain with all the violent thoughts he normally suppresses, there are brief shots from Event Horizon thrown in.

That would explain why those bits were so disturbing!

Mortal Coil. Honestly, I can't even fathom why Neelix is so hated. I really like him. Thought that episode was brilliant and moving. Also bonus points for "You will be assimilated" "Sorry, no time for that now, maybe later" and the fact that not even the Borg could be arsed assimilating the Crap Klingons.

[Lemming]

The original idea involved Wildman rather than Neelix, and was horrifying:

We were going to do this Pet Sematary episode where Ensign Wildman goes on a shuttle mission and dies, and Seven of Nine brings her back to life using Borg technology, except that now she's 'zombie mom.' She's not all there. Wildman's more connected with death than life, and her only link to life is through her daughter. She wants to kill her daughter, though, to bring her back to 'life' so she can share that experience with her. Really a creepy, morbid story! I thought, 'This is going to be so much fun to write. There has been nothing on Star Trek remotely like that, ever.' So we broke the story, and everybody was pretty happy about it.

Mortal Coil is a great episode, but if you watch it with someone, they're guaranteed to let out a mood-breaking cheer when Neelix steps onto the transporter pad to kill himself. As for why he's so hated, I dunno if I'd say I hate him but his treatment of Kes early on always seemed well dodgy to me. Jealously possessive towards a two-year-old, even if she is basically in her 20s due to sci-fi magic. It's worse because Kes is generally so calm and unflappable, so he's just ranting at someone who rarely responds. The highlight of Elite Force is phasering him to death and then blissfully sitting back and accepting the consequences as the security teams beam in to give you a game over.

Then again, while rewatching TNG I'm finding that I actually think Wesley is alright after all, so I get where you're coming from.

[Mobbd]

The original idea involved Wildman rather than Neelix, and was horrifying:
Mortal Coil is a great episode, but if you watch it with someone, they're guaranteed to let out a mood-breaking cheer when Neelix steps onto the transporter pad to kill himself. As for why he's so hated, I dunno if I'd say I hate him but his treatment of Kes early on always seemed well dodgy to me. Jealously possessive towards a two-year-old, even if she is basically in her 20s due to sci-fi magic. It's worse because Kes is generally so calm and unflappable, so he's just ranting at someone who rarely responds. The highlight of Elite Force is phasering him to death and then blissfully sitting back and accepting the consequences as the security teams beam in to give you a game over.

Then again, while rewatching TNG I'm finding that I actually think Wesley is alright after all, so I get where you're coming from.

People make way too much of Kes being "two" and dating Neelix these days. It's not creepy or paedo. She's an alien. She ages differently. At "two," she doesn't look or talk or act like an Earth child. When she's "nine," she's literally geriatric.

I like Neelix. He's a new kind of alien: I don't think we ever saw a tree critter-like alien before him. His jealousy stuff was a bit gross (though he was actually right about Tom trying to muscle in) but he gets over it. He learns! He grows! Unlike almost any other Star Trek: Voyager character.

[purlieu]

Yeah, I don't get the thing about Kes being two either, she only lives to about nine so if we're judging by our standards then every single Ocampa relationship is distasteful. It's totally within Star Trek's ideals that it's never even considered weird, because by Ocampa standards she's an adult, with the awareness and attitudes that go with adulthood. And yeah, Neelix was a bit overbearing at first, but as Mobbd says, he grew and developed. It was certainly no worse than Bashir letching on every woman who set foot on DS9, or basically pestering - bordering on stalking - Dax for the first couple of seasons.

I do really like him, though. He's friendly, optimistic, enthusiastic, caring, generous, openly emotional, and yet also highly skilled and intelligent. He has a general lack of cynicism that is endearing because his self-awareness and scientific and cultural knowhow means he's never mawkishly naive. And yet he seems to be hated as much as, if not more than, Wesley Crusher. I wonder if some of it is a certain attitude that means people are naturally suspicious of anyone who lacks a certain level of cynicism.

That Wildman idea sounds really cool, would have loved to have seen that.

[Mobbd]

Same page, my friend. Also Ethan Phillips is just a great character actor. He brings a lot. (Was delighted to see him in Better Call Saul!)

[Mr Trumpet]

I liked the story (maybe I read it on here actually) that Phillips was rushing across the Paramount lot in full Neelix makeup when he bumped into Robin Williams, who of course launched into a comedy bit about chefs in outer space before telling him he loved the show and the character. I think Neelix gets a lot of shit from fans, so it must have been nice to get that apparently earnest endorsement from someone like Williams.

[Malcy]

I liked the story (maybe I read it on here actually) that Phillips was rushing across the Paramount lot in full Neelix makeup when he bumped into Robin Williams, who of course launched into a comedy bit about chefs in outer space before telling him he loved the show and the character. I think Neelix gets a lot of shit from fans, so it must have been nice to get that apparently earnest endorsement from someone like Williams.

Yeah I posted it a while back. I don't know how vocal people were about their dislike for Neelix when it was airing but Phillips seemed really humbled by that encounter. A lovely memory to have as well.

It was about the third season. They finished my makeup around 7. I was going over to Stage 16 where we shot the cave scenes. I walked down the long alley between the stages. As I turned the corner I could see way up the other end of the alley another person walking towards me. It was just sunrise. We got closer and closer. We're about 10 feet from each other, and I realize it's Robin Williams, who was on the lot doing The Birdcage. He sees me and goes, 'Oh my God, Mr. Neelix!' Then he does this whole routine about what it's like to be a chef in outer space. 'The eggs are floating, the pancakes are getting too big!', a Robin Williams schtick. I had a private performance for like a minute and it was really funny. Then he came up, gave me a big hug, and said, 'I love your character, sir.' Such a sweet, sweet man. I'll never forget that.

[purlieu]

Yeah, that must have been a really wonderful moment for him.

Message in a Bottle. Well that was bloody great. Think that's the first Voyager episode that's gone for the out-and-out comedy format, really funny and with a really lovely final scene. Also enjoyed the little DS9 nods like the uniform and the brief mention of the Dominion war (what a long time ago that seems to me now!)

[mothman]

Quite likely my favourite Voyager episode. It's a shame they felt the need to have any scenes set back on actual Voyager; the Hirogen network thing is a nice bit of foreshadowing, but the comedy scenes with Paris and Kim trying to create a new EMH because how hard can it be are utterly pointless. Knowing how institutionalised and set in their ways the production staff were by this point[nb]OK, I'm being unfair here. Why, they innovated all the time, like letting the Captain Proton holodeck scenes be filmed in black & white - a mere ten years after they had a fit of the vapours at the very idea of doing it for "The Big Goodbye." Black and white - on a COLOUR TV show?! Inconceivable![/nb], I suspect they insisted on a certain amount of the ep featuring other cast members no matter what they were actually doing.

[Mobbd]

It's a favourite for me too, that one. Might be the first Voyager episode to be well and truly 5-star. Funny, intelligent, and just so much fun to visit the A-Quad for a while. Just great. "Romulans?!"

[Mr Trumpet]

I love anything with Romulans, but it's hard to overlook what a massive scumbag Andy Dick is

[purlieu]

Christ, just read his wikipedia page, what a... well, a dick.

Waking Moments. Ah, a b-movie version of Inception. A pleasingly pulpy story that kept threatening to go naff but managed to repeatedly redeem itself. Featured an exceptional use of "resistance is futile".

[Deanjam]

Featured an exceptional use of "resistance is futile".

I'm irrationally triggered by how Ryan pronounces Futile. She's the only borg who does it the American way.

[mothman]

Resistance is feudal. Well, they do have a Queen. Perhaps we need to see some Borg Barons. We notionally saw Borg Freemen after all, Hugh and his posse...

[purlieu]

Yes, it did bother me a bit too. I suppose it could be her human side returning.

Speaking of Seven, we now have seven Trek threads on the front page of Picture Box.

[Mobbd]

Speaking of Seven, we now have seven Trek threads on the front page of Picture Box.

Wehey!

But seriously, we should be ashamed of ourselves.

[purlieu]

I was going to suggest a Star Trek, Doctor Who & Superheroes subforum, but that would kill off about 2/3 of the traffic to Picture Box.

[purlieu]

Hunters. A really lovely character-centric episode that manages to totally avoid the episodic format of the show by referencing the communications network from the previous episode, and building on various individual character elements. Generally really nice to see the crew having moments to just be themselves and consider their own relationships onboard ship and to those in the Alpha Quadrant; Janeway's was obviously very sad, and it was nice to see Tuvok's underlying emotions be allowed to break through, even subtly. The Hirogen feel different to typical Star Trek aliens, which makes their (inevitable) return in the future at least somewhat appealing, in the way the Crap Klingons never were. Yes, very good.

[Mobbd]

I was going to suggest a Star Trek, Doctor Who & Superheroes subforum, but that would kill off about 2/3 of the traffic to Picture Box.

The Nerd Crew
Lower Dorks
The Penalty Box - where tears are permitted

[purlieu]

Prey. The Hirogen are back - again! Can't say I'd want to see them every episode but they're an enjoyably different villain. Some really good drama there, Seven is proving to be excellent, even this early on in her run. Shame Species 8472 are such badly rendered generic CG aliens.

[Wonderful Butternut]

This is "one for the pisses me off" file.

Janeway punishes Seven for beaming the member of Species 8472 onto the Hirogen vessel, mere moments before either Janeway would've had to surrender it anyway or the Hirogen destroy Voyager. Obviously it's barbaric and horrible for the Hirogen to use it as prey, and cut it up for trophies when they eventually kill it, and we should try and protect innocent species from that etc. etc., but Voyager has basically zero chance against the Hirogen here. They can't protect Species 8472 from the Hirogen in this situation, and they can't even escape because the Hirogen knocked out their warp drive. So the entire crew would've likely been killed had they stuck to Janeway's principle on it.

I really wish Seven had pointed that out to Janeway. "Yeah captain, we were dead if I hadn't done that. But by all means, restrict my privileges as punishment."

Seven can be criticised for not helping the crew open a rift to fluidic space before the Hirogen vessels arrived. But even if they had been able to send Species 8472 back to fluidic space before the Hirogen arrived, there's quite a significant chance the Hirogen wouldn't have been too happy with Voyager helping their prey escape and may have wanted replacement prey (ie. Voyager)

[purlieu]

Yeah, I enjoyed the Seven vs. Starfleet thing because Seven was clearly in the right, maybe not at first but ultimately she ended up making the right call and I think it was at least partially obvious to viewers. Some of the best bits of Voyager so far have tread a similar line to DS9 in terms of the general Starfleet attitude being somewhat naive as soon as it comes to things outside the standard Alpha Quadrant familiarity.