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Star Trek - Voyager

Started by dr_christian_troy, October 05, 2020, 01:52:46 PM

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Wonderful Butternut

EDIT: My brain no work good today.

purlieu

Retrospect. Ehhhh, I get what they were going for here, but it didn't sit particularly comfortably with me. It's clearly intended as a critique on certain aspects of psychology, the unreliability of memory, and impartiality of friendship, but ends up feeling more than a little bit like a victim-blaming story. We get no resolution for Seven at all, despite her feeling remorse for something that wasn't really her fault. What exactly was she remembering? I was hoping for a final climactic scene where there was some explanation, but it just ended without any real justification for the story it told.

Lemming

That's a classic, for all the wrong reasons. "On my world, an accusation alone can ruin you forever!" RIP Falsely-Accused-Man, died in a spectacular display of fireworks, his falsely-accused giblets scattered across Voyager's hull. We shall never forget you or your innoence.

Yeah, as I remember it, the message is hard to read as anything other than "Seven should have just shut up and not brought the case forward". I've seen people say it's more intended as an allegory to things like the fallibility of witness testimony and the 90s satanic panic, but it seems to me to be very clearly about sexual assault.

PlanktonSideburns

Yea fuck that episode, what the fuck

Deanjam

I wrote this on page one of this thread.

Quote from: Deanjam on October 05, 2020, 07:57:08 PM

The worst episode is Retrospect, where Seven is convinced some bloke has taken some of her borg implants without consent. It's a horrible sexual abuse metaphor made worse by the ending (and I'm gonna spoil it because it's awful) where it turns out Seven was wrong and had falsely accused the guy who is now very dead. So don't believe women accusers, they're probably making it up. Definitely hasn't aged well.

Deanjam

Quote from: Lemming on September 13, 2021, 11:25:04 PM

Yeah, as I remember it, the message is hard to read as anything other than "Seven should have just shut up and not brought the case forward". I've seen people say it's more intended as an allegory to things like the fallibility of witness testimony and the 90s satanic panic, but it seems to me to be very clearly about sexual assault.

I saw a defense of it from Brian Fuller where he claimed they'd deliberately made no reference to rape or sexual assault, but I don't know what he thinks the audience makes of a woman repeatedly saying 'HE VIOLATED ME!"

Lemming

Started a proper full-on rewatch of Voyager a couple of weeks ago, as the friend I recently watched Enterprise with was ready to start another series.

Amazed how good the first two seasons are, actually. I'd remembered them being a bit shaky, but for the most part Voyager hit the ground running. I even loved the Beowulf episode, when anything to do with the holodeck normally sends me to sleep. Getting a lot of enjoyment out of episodes that I'd remembered being pretty middling - that one where Harry meets the people who euthanise themselves to travel to the "afterlife", for example, was one I'd remembered as being run-of-the-mill, but it's actually really interesting and well-plotted.

Regrettably, have to stand by the Neelix hate. I'm giving him a chance but holy fuck his whole personality is basically just tormenting Kes, the only thing to soften the blow being that Kes has godlike calmness which prevents her from really being upset by any of it.

purlieu

The Killing Game. Um, ok. Didn't see that one coming. Not convinced there was enough there to justify a two-parter, but it would have been slightly too squeezed into a single 45 minutes. Another of those slightly daft b-movie ideas that Voyager seems to enjoy doing a lot. The Hirogen seemed quite interesting in the past, and at the start of this, but there was a bit too much generic alien baddy marching around being evil going on by the end. Also, even with the expansions, the whole holodeck thing is really beginning to push my suspension of belief at this point, even if the image of them looking down into it from a corridor was pretty cool. Voyager took a fucking battering again, that ship's really going to limp into the Alpha Quadrant at this rate. And another red shirt died, off screen, which by my calculation makes the number of crew about 12 by this point.

purlieu

Vis A Vis. Been off for a couple of months and I return to a dull, seen-it-a-thousand-times-before bit of pap like that. Why do bodysnatchers never have the faintest idea how to act like the person they're meant to be? Oh I know, I'll pretend to be an important bridge officer whose duties I don't understand, on a ship I don't know my way around full of people I know nothing about. What could go wrong there?

Lemming

Yay, more Voyager (even if we're returning to a shit episode)!

Missed that you'd done The Killing Game, probably would have been better as a one-part episode but I thought the concept was suitably bizarre to make it worthwhile.

purlieu

The Omega Directive. Lots of great stuff there, a threat both enormous and microscopic, ruined slightly by the idea of the Borg having some sort of quasi-religious fascination with a particle.

Johnny Foreigner

Is that the one where 7 of 9 meets God? Rather silly.

Mobbd

Quote from: purlieu on November 17, 2021, 09:16:16 PMThe Omega Directive. Lots of great stuff there, a threat both enormous and microscopic, ruined slightly by the idea of the Borg having some sort of quasi-religious fascination with a particle.

Excellent episode imho. In the upper half anyway.

I like the addition to canon that there might be something even more important than the Prime Directive. The Omega Directive! Nobody ever talks about it. (Though to be fair, nobody ever mentions it in-universe again either. Kinda wish they did.).

EDIT: seems omega molecules were mentioned briefly in the episode "Q2." Barely anything but at least it confirms that it's real beyond one episode.

Malcy

Quote from: Mobbd on November 18, 2021, 10:40:39 AMExcellent episode imho. In the upper half anyway.

I like the addition to canon that there might be something even more important than the Prime Directive. The Omega Directive! Nobody ever talks about it. (Though to be fair, nobody ever mentions it in-universe again either. Kinda wish they did.).

EDIT: seems omega molecules were mentioned briefly in the episode "Q2." Barely anything but at least it confirms that it's real beyond one episode.

Only other place I saw it mentioned was the Armada PC game. It's the basis of the plot of the game.

Mobbd

Quote from: Malcy on November 18, 2021, 10:52:43 AMOnly other place I saw it mentioned was the Armada PC game. It's the basis of the plot of the game.

That's cool.

I wondered on a hunch if the idea came first for gameplay but that they snuck it into Voyager to legitimise the concept before the game's release? Probably not: they're a couple of years apart (episode was '98, game was '01).

The game looks fun, actually. Some good deep cuts in there by the looks of it.

Malcy

Quote from: Mobbd on November 18, 2021, 11:08:58 AMThat's cool.

I wondered on a hunch if the idea came first for gameplay but that they snuck it into Voyager to legitimise the concept before the game's release? Probably not: they're a couple of years apart (episode was '98, game was '01).

The game looks fun, actually. Some good deep cuts in there by the looks of it.

I still regularly play Armada 2. Have done since it came out. All the old Star Trek games are being re-released on GOG. Would be great to play Armada 1 again. Haven't been able to get that one or Bridge Commander to run for years.

purlieu

Unforgettable. Very nice to have an episode that doesn't remotely feel like a retread of past Trek stories, and one that didn't go down the predictable path of 'she turned out to be an alien with a cover story'; it wasn't all that gripping, however.

Living Witness. This, on the other hand, was brilliant. The main cast got the opportunity to play camp bad guy versions of themselves, the overall story was great, the double framing device a nice twist at the end. It could probably have done with an extra few minutes - the ending felt a bit rushed - but definitely a strong episode.

Deanjam

Living Witness is one of Voyagers best. Their version of the evil mirror universe, essentially. Unforgettable is the most ironically named episode of Star Trek ever. Total bore. Like most Chakotay episodes.

purlieu

Demon. I thought the 'silver blood' lot had some potential to explore, but the balance of the episode was really odd and focused on the setup which was fairly dull, meaning the end was completely rushed. TNG could have got an episode out of deciding whether it was ethical to allow them to clone the crew, whereas here everyone is copied in the space of about 20 seconds.

Also like fuck would Star Fleet designate a planet "Demon class".

purlieu

One. Ah, excellent stuff, Seven given a lot to work with there, and some nice development in character for the end. Interested to see how she progresses now that season five is just around the corner.

Lemming

Love Living Witness and One, two of the best of the season.

I really like the premise of Unforgettable, but the finished product is indeed forgettable.

purlieu

Hope and Fear. Excellent Seven and Janeway stuff there, really enjoyed that. Nice to get at least one reference to a past story and some some progress on the journey home, too. Also enjoyed seeing some consequences from past decisions. It's such a shame that Voyager is so episodic because it's got the most obvious potential arc and an episode like that fits in really well. That said, ending a season without a cliffhanger, is that allowed on Star Trek after the first season? Tut tut.

Night. Janeway's given up on the Prime Directive completely by this point, then. Some good character stuff for her and a nice, if somewhat slight, scenario in the second half. A tad disappointed it wasn't purely based around the psychological horror of the void, though. That said, I still don't really understand how the void works, like you cross over the boundary and can suddenly see all the stars that are still light years away? Hmm.

purlieu

Drone. Ah that was brilliant, great to see something new done with the Borg and some great development for Seven. Admittedly it was very bloody obvious what was going to happen and they shouldn't have let him grow in the first place. But yeah, marvellous.

mothman

Having episodes called "One" and "Drone" in close proximity has always felt a bit daft to me. And with "Night" and "Demon" and also I think "Bliss" coming up soon (?), I often forget which is which, what happens in which, etc.

Mr Trumpet

TNG had three episodes titled "A Matter of X" (Time, Perspective, Honour), which I always found disproportionately annoying.

Mobbd

Quote from: mothman on December 03, 2021, 12:29:52 AMI think "Bliss" coming up soon (?)

I'm looking forward to hitting Bliss on this re-watch. I always enjoy that episode but nobody else seems to care for it. Curious to know what you folks think of it.

I like it (among other reasons) for it being a slight peek into what life on Earth could be like for various of our characters. I was always pissed that
Spoiler alert
we didn't get to see Chakotay, Neelix and Seven on Earth in Endgame, how Starfleet brass would respond to these criminals and aliens.
[close]
.

Deanjam

Quote from: Mobbd on December 03, 2021, 11:22:55 AMI'm looking forward to hitting Bliss on this re-watch. I always enjoy that episode but nobody else seems to care for it. Curious to know what you folks think of it.

I enjoy it mostly for William Morgan Sheppard's mad space-Captain Ahab performance. One of the best guest roles in all Star Trek.

Mobbd

Quote from: Deanjam on December 03, 2021, 12:30:22 PMI enjoy it mostly for William Morgan Sheppard's mad space-Captain Ahab performance. One of the best guest roles in all Star Trek.

I think so too! Glad to hear it from someone else. Don't know why this is not a more popular episode. But we'll come to that, I imagine, shortly.

purlieu

Extreme Risk. The mental health stuff seems pretty tame compared to how it'd be handled on TV today, but it was pretty good for the time. The probe plot was pretty dull though.

In the Flesh. I loved the utter wtf of the opening section. Pretty good stuff, pleasingly unpredictable in places, although I could have done without the naff romance stuff, and it seemed to end a bit too quickly.

Once Upon a Time. I kind of wish they had the bravery to kill Sam off there, it would make the emotional journey of the story feel a little more worthwhile, as opposed to the obvious 'she'll be alright in the end anyway' ending. Nice stuff for the most part, but I could have done without all the Flotter stuff.


A couple of general thoughts... the show is finally starting to gel at this point, it definitely feels like the crew all work together and watching it is beginning to feel like I'm really there with them, although Harry is still a bit of an empty shell. Shame it's taken so long for it to get to this point, though.
At what point did Janeway decide she was ok being called ma'am?
The potential romances between Torres and Chakotay, and Janeway and Chakotay, hinted at in earlier episodes have gone absolutely nowhere. Seems a bit odd to have introduced those.
Almost two thirds of the way through the show and they've still only travelled a fraction of the journey. Curious to see how it'll all develop.

Lemming

Quote from: purlieu on December 04, 2021, 10:08:06 PMThe potential romances between Torres and Chakotay

Oh god, I'd forgotten about that. In the hallucinations episode, right?

"I'M THE CHAKOTAY YOU WANT ME TO BE." Awful stuff, Beltran visibly straining to blast through the line as quick as possible. Never comes up again.