Star Trek - Voyager

[purlieu]

Yeah, I was expecting it to return for ages until her and Paris seemed to be serious, when I realised it had obviously been forgotten.

[purlieu]

Nothing Human. Ah, wonderful stuff, an excellent truly alien alien, and a really great ethical dilemma. I understand both sides of the issue: in science, the ends should never justify the means, but at the same time, if the knowledge is already there, why not use it? I can't imagine the show's writers never benefitting from any medication that's come from vivisection. But yeah, very good.

Timeless. Fantastic. No point in going into details plot wise, just really great stuff. Season five is really going all out with the headfuck pre-credits sequences, isn't it? Great to see another ten years shaved from the journey time. At this rate they'll get back to the Alpha Quadrant before the red shirt deaths have reduced the crew to absolute basics. Also great to see Harry given a genuinely meaty role for once (and a haircut that really suits him). And Geordi! Shame he was in the opening credits, would have been a great surprise otherwise.

Thirty Days. From ladies' man to eco terrorist, Tom Paris has it all. Really not sure what to make of that. Within the Alpha Quadrant I could maybe understand Janeway's perspective, but so far out from Federation space it seems a bit excessive, especially as there's a real climate change parallel within the scenario. Perhaps in another show it would sit more comfortably, but the lead character effectively saying "I will kill one of the crew to ensure this race wipes itself out through selfish ignorance" doesn't sit right with me.
I should probably mention Captain Proton at some point, but the right moment never seems to arise.

[Lemming]

Nothing Human is brilliant, still can't get over how good the alien design is.

Right on the borderline between being funny and being genuinely cool.

[Wonderful Butternut]

This should really be minor in relation to the moral dilemma in Nothing Human, but I don't like that holo-MenegleMoset basically defends the real Moset's methods. I think it would've been more realistic if holo-Moset was just incapable of answering the accusation, because he was constructed solely from official records, which presumably made no mention of sadistic experimentation on living Bajorans and intentionally infecting them with the virus that he later cured.

Picard would've likely respected Torres' desire to not be treated by holo-Moset, even if it meant her death. Janeway is in a more difficult position because she cannot get a replacement for Torres as she's at the other side of the galaxy, but even if the situations were reversed, I still think Janeway would order the treatment whilst Picard would allow his Chief Engineer to die if that's what they wanted.

Of course there's an argument that since Torres falls unconscious not long after Moset's crimes are revealed, is she's making a sound judgment? Is she even making the judgment she really wants whilst faced with death as an alternative? She's obviously angry after the event, but if she was conscious the whole time and slowly feeling herself fade away, and time for The Doctor to pull an alternative option out of his holo backside was ticking down, she might've said "Ok fuck it I was bluffing. I want to live! Treat me please!"


Timeless is brilliant. Having Geordi instead of Captain Mindless No-name Bureaucrat try to stop future Chakotay and future Kim is an excellent touch.

[purlieu]

Yeah, there haven't been many Voyager episodes that have really made me think too much about the issues, but there seems to be a lot more going on this season.

Infinite Regress. Jeri Ryan is astonishing in this. If you'd told me before that she could be convincing as a Ferengi without any makeup, I wouldn't have believed it. Superb. A great story and some genuinely unsettling bits in the mind meld. Still not 100% sure how she won't be affected by it in the future, but otherwise a fantastic episode.

Counterpoint. That was lots of fun, great chemistry between Janeway and Kashyk.

[Mr Trumpet]

I remember Kate Mulgrew saying Counterpoint was her favourite episode, and I can see why. Very character focused and Janeway gets to play quite a few different beats.

[Mobbd]

I can't believe how good season 5 is shaping up to be. I always had this WRONG memory that the second half of Voyager was a little weak. It ain't.

Counterpoint is superb. Love the business about cloaking Vorik and Tuvok and the refugees; the inspector is a great and complex villain. Love all the cloak-and-dagger outwitting and double-bluffing stuff.

I do wonder when the shark jump happens though; if indeed there is one. Brace for impact! I don't remember Malon-related episodes very fondly but those "Hierarchy" alien episodes with the Doctor were fun from what I recall. But that's the point of re-watches, I guess. To reassess with fresh eyes.

So far it looks like there are 3 main eras of Voyager. Tell me if you don't see it this way. There's S1-3 (pre-Nekrit Expanse with a focus on Kazon, Vidiians, Talaxians, Ocampa), S4-5/6 (post-Nekrit Expanse with a focus on decent Borg stuff, Hyrogen, returns of 8472, and some properly great standalones like Counterpoint and Timeless etc), and from what I can remember but hope to be wrong about, a period of less-good post-Unimatrix Borg Queen stuff, on-the-nose Malon eco-anxiety, and hard watches like the wrestling episode and the terrible drag race episode until the end. Really looking forward to finding out. I hope there are more surprises to come.

[Lemming]

I agree with your model of dividing the show into three eras. The show never jumps the shark for me, though Season 7 is a bit low-energy at times. Although it still has some great episodes like Prophecy, Body and Soul, Lineage, and the Workforce two-parter which I always liked despite the ridiculous concept.  The drag race episode ("Drive", I think?) is a laugh with some decent Tom/B'Elanna stuff, but just reading the words "the wrestling episode" brought back horrible memories, that one's definitely a low point.

Absolutely love this show, more and more with every rewatch. I'm on "Concerning Flight" right now, which is a great bit of lighthearted fun. "CATERINA, WE'RE FLYING!"

[Deanjam]

I like the wrestling episode! But then I am a fan of wrestling and cheesy 80s secret fight club action films.

I think the 3 way split is accurate, too. Voyager always gets shit for not progressing the story lines, but there's a clear advance through the Delta quadrant, leaving species behind and finding new recurring aliens. Series 4 & 5 are the best of the series for sure. I think you might have Latent Image coming up? That's one of my favourite episodes. And you were wondering about when to mention Captain Proton? Yeah, you'll have a chance soon.

If there's a shark jump, it's the Irish village episodes. Utter tripe.

[purlieu]

Season five feels like a dramatic upscale in quality for me. There's been a subtle increase in quality before now, but it's suddenly feeling like it's of the same quality as previous two Treks. Almost halfway through the season and I've only given one episode a sub-8/10 rating on imdb. It's disappointing that this is basically where TNG and DS9 were in season three rather than five, but I'm just glad I've finally got to a point where I'm genuinely excited about the next episode, rather than just taking it as it comes.

[Mr Trumpet]

I think season 5 is when Jeri Taylor retired as a producer on the show. She wrote a lot of middling episodes and was head honcho of TNG in its final season, which is generally considered weaker than what came before.

[Mobbd]

Love the love for the wrestling and drag race episodes. Looking forward to seeing them now. But there had better be mankinis.

[purlieu]

I think you might have Latent Image coming up? That's one of my favourite episodes.

Ah yes, just watched this now, really beautiful stuff. Brilliant stuff from Seven and Janeway, and the Doctor was just superb. Genuinely moving. Lost a point for ending very slightly too vaguely, but yeah, loved that.

[Deanjam]

Ah yes, just watched this now, really beautiful stuff. Brilliant stuff from Seven and Janeway, and the Doctor was just superb. Genuinely moving. Lost a point for ending very slightly too vaguely, but yeah, loved that.

Ome thing I like about the ending is the Doctor isn't fixed with technobabble, but is given the chance to work past his trauma in a humanist way. He finds he can deal with it when he gets annoyed at Janeway falling asleep listening to him drone on.

[purlieu]

Oh yes, absolutely, I'm really glad it's his own personality that's able to deal with it. It would totally undermine the whole point of him being treated as an individual if the solution was approaching him as a piece of technology. I just wish there was a slightly stronger moment of his own realisation.

[purlieu]

Bride of Chaotica! Haha oh God I needed that today. Wonderful.

Gravity. I suppose that was quite sweet, but I found it all remarkably unaffecting really.

Bliss. Ah that was a lot of fun. Not a dramatically original idea, but done really well, and on an enjoyably massive scale. Moby Dick meets Psirens, how could you go wrong?

[Deanjam]

Bride of Chaotica! Haha oh God I needed that today. Wonderful.

Some people don't like holodeck episodes, but this and stuff like Our Man Bashir are great fun to me.

[purlieu]

Yes, but some people have no soul.

[mothman]

Gravity! That's another one I lose among the one-word titles glut we get at this point in the show.

[Mobbd]

Gravity is GOOD because, if nothing else, Tuvok's alien friend is none other than Lori Petty. That's freakin' Tank Girl to you.

She just happens to be the woman I'm going to marry is all. *looks to the camera cross-eyed*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Petty

[Deanjam]

You just want her to Free Willy.


(Yes, a free willy joke in 2021. I have no shame)

[Mobbd]

It's funny cos it's true. *hangs head in shame*

[mothman]

They're all lori petty by the time

[purlieu]

The Disease. The result of the disease being death by cliches, right? Fucking hell.
Also, the no sex with aliens thing is a bit rich given that the Enterprise D just spent seven years shagging its way around the galaxy.

[mothman]

*shakes fist* RIKERRR!!!

[purlieu]

Dark Frontier. Well that was like a Voyager movie really. I thought it was mostly really excellent, but there were a couple of quite large niggles: the Federation apparently being aware of the Borg about 20 years before Q Who, and the whole Borg Queen thing, which was a fun novelty in First Contact, but still doesn't really work as a concept for me. But otherwise, really good, with lots of brilliant stuff for Janeway and Seven, once again.

[Malcy]

the Federation apparently being aware of the Borg about 20 years before Q Who

El-Aurians were around for a while, since the launch of the Enterprise-B where several were rescued anyway, it's not unlikely that they would have told stories of the Borg wiping them out, and then there's other stuff but not sure what you have watched of the other shows.

[purlieu]

Aye, I think I recall reading that there are hints of them in Enterprise or something. I suppose it just lessens the impact of Q Who which is one of my favourite episodes.

Course: Oblivion. Oh fucking hell. What an utterly incredible idea totally ruined by some fucking awful B-movie makeup, Kate Mulgrew's drunken ill acting and what might be the most hilariously awful exposition scene I've ever seen in a serious drama series. "Ah, the demon planet. One of our more interesting missions..." Jesus Christ.

The Fight. Oof. No.

[Deanjam]

The Fight. Oof. No.

Chakotay episodes are always very dull. This was a worthy enough idea, and well acted by Beltran, but such a snorefest.

[Mr Trumpet]

I have a soft spot for The Fight. I like stories where they contact beings who are so alien that communication becomes abstracted.