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Star Trek: The Next Generation Rewatch (oh god no)

Started by Lemming, May 11, 2021, 02:05:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mr Trumpet

Dying in the line of duty is fair cop for Valhalla, even if it's just a workplace accident. Jadzia was skiving off to to peek at the orb, so she needed the extra boost of her pals going on that mad mission.

The real Klingon shame is dying of old age or the effects of a sedentary lifestyle. That being the case you'd expect their armies to be full of desperate geriatrics, like Wal-Mart apparently is in the US.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: Mr Trumpet on January 12, 2022, 09:19:10 PMThe real Klingon shame is dying of old age or the effects of a sedentary lifestyle. That being the case you'd expect their armies to be full of desperate geriatrics, like Wal-Mart apparently is in the US.
Isn't there a DS9 episode where a very old Klingon (or Klingons) is desperate to go on one last mission to die in glorious battle?

Wonderful Butternut

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on January 12, 2022, 10:29:58 PMIsn't there a DS9 episode where a very old Klingon (or Klingons) is desperate to go on one last mission to die in glorious battle?

Senile Dahar Master Kor.

Lemming

S05E25 - The Inner Light

An alien probe injects Picard with a lifetime of fictional memories.

- There's a cheap bit of plastic floating in space. A beam emerges from it which gives Picard a mini-seizure and sends him plummeting to the ground.

- The last thing our hero sees before he slips into unconsciousness. Horrific.


- Prickard awakens in a strange bed with a total stranger next to him. Worse, he's wearing a shitty tunic thing. The stranger tells him that this is his home, and that she is his wife.

- He cycles through the usual stuff - saying "computer end program", asking the stranger if she's imprisoned him here, etc. No luck, so he leaves the weird house to check out the surroundings.

- There's a gethering of the stupid tunic club in some kind of town square, where everyone is absolutely fucking buzzing over the planting of a sad-looking sapling. Picard stomps over to the leader and demands to be returned to the Enterprise at once. The leader guy - Batai - attributes Picard's apparent memory loss to THE FEVER. Picard is apparently called Kamin, and his wife is Eline. This horrible town is called Ressik, on the planet Kataan.

- Picard leaves the village and discovers that the surrounding terrain greatly resembles California. He returns to the house that night to snap at Eline. He asks her some questions while eating ELINE'S SPECIAL GRAVY SOUP THING, so that you can hear saliva sloshing about in his mouth with every syllable.

- Eline says that she and Picard were married three years ago (AGE GAP), and that Kamin is an ironmonger who loves playing the flute on account of the fact that Ressik hasn't invented synthesiers or electric guitars or other good instruments.

- When Eline leans over to him, Picard notices that her necklace appears to depict the probe. We cut back to the Enterprise, where ACTING CAPTAIN WILL T RIKER has got things under control.

- Bev says that Picard, who is lying in a heap on the floor, is displaying mad neurotransmitter activity. Data can't block the probe's beam, Worf is forbidden from blasting it to pieces, so they decide to try and run. But the probe follows! It follows them at speed, making any passing ships laugh at them for being bullied by a bit of plastic.

- Back in Picard's dream, he has awful longer hair now. Five years have passed and he still keeps scoping out the stars and trying to find the Enterprise. Eline tries to convince him that being trapped in an adobe village where people cheer over saplings is actually a good thing. She drives the point home by pointing out Picard's lack of romantic success in his former life, which he now has in the form of Pre-Prepared Probe-Granted Wife Eline. She implores him to let go of his past life of nonstop starship adventures (boring) and accept his new life as a man who looks at trees (thrilling).

- There's a drought on, and the sapling has grown despite it because everyone dumps tons of water on it for its symbolic value. Picard's tech know-how allows him to suggest some solutions to the drought. His new mission in life is to build an atmospheric condensor to water crops, which almost as exciting as being a starship captain.

- During a hardcore flute rave that night, Picard apologises to Eline for inflicting five years of daily agonising misery upon her. He's decided to make it up to her by offering to have a child with her, a surefire way to salvage any difficult marriage. Eline is thrilled and Picard begins to construct a nursery, which is a nice consolation prize when you can't travel at warp speeds and explore new worlds anymore.

- Back on the Enterprise, Ensign Gates is on the bridge! She doesn't have any strong opinions on the captain being in a coma.

- Riker's getting stressed. He decides it's time to interrupt the beam.

- More time has passed within the dream and Picard now gives flute concerts for gathered neighbours as his daughter prances around idylically. He's celebrating the birth of his newborn son. The child will be named BATAI, after the great BATAI (Dead).

- Picard enthuses that he's abandoned his childfree/antinatalist ideologies. As divine punishment for this, he collapses to the ground and shits himself. This is a result of Riker's "CUT OFF THE BEAM" plan. "GET THAT BEAM BACK!" he commands Data as Picard flops around on the ground like a wounded fish.

- He's stabilised, but stuck in the dream. Now his daughter is an adult and he wears stupidly big shirts. He has also physically morphed into Barry Morse.

- AdultDaughter is a scientist now, and she's investigating the drought. She's determined that the climate change affecting the planet is irreverisble. Picard tells her to go out on the town and get some cock instead of worrying about the climate.

- Worf and Riker are absolutely eating shit over that "cut off the beam" plan. Egg on their faces. Luckily, Geordi has recived some data from the probe that suggests it came from the system Kataan, an unhinabited system which was BLOWN APART a thousand years ago by a star going nova.

- In the dream, Picard has become comically old. Batai Jr, now an adult, tells him that he's going to quit school to become a flute musician. Picard gives him the green light because the planet will soon explode so nothing really matters.

- Picard has PROOF of the climate/nova crisis, and is stomping about trying to show people. He's told to go fuck himself and not to spread panic. The government already knew about this, but have decided to hide it since there's nothing that can be done to stop it. There is however, a MASTERPLAN to save something of the planet.

- Eline dies of being incredibly old. And then Picard gets even older, and is now chasing his grandchildren around!

- It's become impossible to go outside for too long without getting ABSOLUTELY FUCKING FRIED. Picard's kids drag him outside to watch the momentous launch of some kind of missile. He's made to wear the Old Person Sunhat.

- When Picard goes outside to see the missile, his daughter tells him he's already seen it. Then Batai (Dead) appears behind him and greets him! He realises that the missile that's about to be launched is the probe which the Enterprise found over a millenia later. Eline revives, looking super young again, and everyone gets together to tell Picard to carry his memories of their society with him back into the present.

- The beam disconnects and Picard awakens from his coma. He's only been unconscious for 25 minutes! Amazing tech, if only they'd put all that effort into stopping the sun exploding rather than creating a mind-shredding probe device.

- Picard's all disoriented and fucked up. The probe contained a box, and inside it is THE FLUTE. Picard plays it sadly.

It's a great concept which goes for big emotional payoffs, so naturally I'm going to piss everyone off by spending the entire review summary talking about how mad the probe makes me. Before I start, let me clarify - I know that the probe doesn't really matter, the story is about the concept of being given the chance to live another life which is polar opposite to the one you already have, to come to value the things you'd considered unappealing before, and what you can learn from such an experience - or at least, that's the theme I take away from it. I think it's a pretty good story in this regard, even if Picard's idyllic agrarian life seems like hell to me.

THAT SAID:

I've never been sure how you're meant to respond to what the Ressikans ended up doing - the episode seems to intend that you sympathise with and approve of their probe plan, but it's an absolutely fucking hideous thing to do to someone, espeically since at the end it just dumps you back right where you were and leaves you to spend another five years trying to readjust. It's not enough to steal your life from you once, they do it twice! Unless the memories are designed to start fading when you awaken, like a dream you can't quite remember. It's a mindblowing violation of bodily autonomy (mental autonomy?). It reminds me of the Voyager episode where there's an obelisk that transmits memories of a holocaust into the minds of passers-by against their will.

I always wondered if Kamin/Eline/etc were real or just characters created by the Ressikans. Plus, how does the probe work - do the memories play out the same for everyone or does it have some kind of holodeck-like AI response that adapts to the behaviour of the "player"?

Other practical questions about the probe - what happens if you die, or intentionally kill yourself in the dream (that would be me after five minutes of listening to the tunic people talk about saplings)? Can you leave the vicinity of Ressika and travel around the planet? What happens if you choose to defy the characters and refuse to take part in any of it, and spend the entire dream attempting to return to your own life - or is the probe manipulating your thoughts in some way? If Eline and the others are real, what happens if the person who the probe attacks is female, and therefore incapable of following the "lets have kids" subplot with Eline? Or I guess maybe Eline is the female player character and in that case Kamin fulfils the Eline role.

Again, I know none of this actually matters for the purposes of the plot, but it's fun to think about.

You know... they also had no idea who'd find the probe. Was there any logic in the way it selected Picard, or did it just fire at any random person on the ship? What if it hit a species like the Horta which didn't resemble the Kataan race in any way? What if it had hit a child in the Enterprise's nursery, forcing a little kid to become an elderly grandma/grandpa before dumping them back in the middle of naptime 25 minutes later? Bastards.

7/10


mothman

Good points, actually. I always just thought this episode was... fine, I guess? But others seem to venerate it and it's often cited as the best TNG ever.

Furthermore, you've reminded me that there was the DS9 episode where O'Brien gets implanted with a lifetime of memories of being in prison. And it fucks him up possibly more than any of the other annual "let's torture Miles" episodes.

I've had dreams that haunted me long after, whether happy or sad. During the loneliest, lowest, bleakest times of mainly single life, I dreamed of being in love and happy; crashing back into my reality was one of the most gut wrenching experiences I can recall. I've had dreams where one of my children or parents died, literally waking crying my eyes out and so distraught I could barely comprehend it hadn't actually happened.

So... yeah. This particular example of getting probed (!) is a dick move. And what does it do? Tell one single person a little bit about the rather uninspiring pastoral life some aliens - and possibly even just one alien family - lived? And to inflict that on just one person who barely survived the experience? What's the point of that?

It does beg the question: how would we want our civilisation to be remembered though? "The Inner Light" suggests we'd send off the memories of one person who liked to look at the stars, play music, and try to get people to care about the environment:
Spoiler alert
Brian May!
[close]

daf

124 | "The Inner Light"



He, Kamin - Through the Space-probe Window

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Highlights :
• Water-Hogging Hope Tree
• Flute-Tooting Baldycoot
• Horny-Handled Hotpot
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Other Bits :
• Memory-Nudging Necklace Nubbin
• The Dead Wife Sketch
• . . . and it was all a dream!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Score :

petril

the probe thing would make sense if it the intent was meant to be ambiguous, and the people who built and send the probe were examined in much detail. but that's maybe another episode entirely. everyone's so resigned and apathetic to their fate they can't be arsed to stop an angry conspiracy militia movement from making a probe and sending it anyway, and that's all the outside universe has to go on

kalowski


Blumf

I like the story overall, but it does not stand up to any scrutiny.

How did this seemingly agrarian society - so primitive they barely figured out air-moisture collection - develop not only warp drive, but full on warp 9+ drive within a lifetime? If they already had warp capability, why didn't they at least set up some colonies somewhere else, if not a full evacuation?

You've also got the top of the range, unstoppable mind rape device. Again, more high tech that was not on show in the life story. Was this village like the planet's equivalent of an Amish community?

They could have probably side stepped the consent issue by just having the probe communicate something like "I have a message from Kataan, do you want to receive it?" Inevitably Picard would say yes and ended up with more than he expected, but would at least have had some sort of consent (a smarter captain might have asked what kind of message)

Wonderful Butternut

Quote from: Lemming on January 16, 2022, 03:41:16 AMI've never been sure how you're meant to respond to what the Ressikans ended up doing - the episode seems to intend that you sympathise with and approve of their probe plan, but it's an absolutely fucking hideous thing to do to someone, espeically since at the end it just dumps you back right where you were and leaves you to spend another five years trying to readjust. It's not enough to steal your life from you once, they do it twice! Unless the memories are designed to start fading when you awaken, like a dream you can't quite remember. It's a mindblowing violation of bodily autonomy (mental autonomy?). It reminds me of the Voyager episode where there's an obelisk that transmits memories of a holocaust into the minds of passers-by against their will.

This is all perfectly valid, imo. Picard clearly experiences every fucking minute of that lifetime, presumably at some point eventually convincing himself that the entire 60+ years he lived in the real world was a massive fuck off fever dream, eventually forgetting his real friends, his family, his job until they go "lol surprise! You were really were Captain Picard all the time." and dump him back on the bridge of the Enterprise.

If I'd been Picard I'd have blown that probe to fuck and then got Crusher to lobotomise the memories out of me. Fuck the Ressikans (Kataanians?).

The Culture Bunker

I think at the time my feeling was "what, so Picard is fine to carry on being Captain right away, after having 50 or whatever years living some whole different life?"

It's another one of those instances where he should have been sent back to Earth for extensive observation, therapy and probably re-training.

Though it would have been funny if when he came back round on the Enterprise, he'd basically forgotten who everyone was. "Byker? Grove?"

Lemming

Surprised to see a couple of lukewarm reactions to the episode, I thought I was more or less the only one who filed this episode under "solid but not outstanding". Just about everywhere else on the internet considers it a 10/10 instant classic, bar a couple of threads on TrekBBS.

I think a lot of it comes down to how the viewer reacts to the probe (a thing of bittersweet beauty vs a nonconsensual mental torture device), and how much you relate to Picard's dream life (idyllic, peaceful, meaningful existence vs mind-numbing flute-based misery).

mothman

Quote from: Lemming on January 17, 2022, 06:12:09 PMmind-numbing flute-based misery
Flashback to when James Galway was No. 1 with "Annie's Song" for what felt like forever...

MojoJojo

I think you could interpret it as like a dream - he doesn't have control, and he doesn't experience anymore than we see - or much more anyway. That would solve all the problems of how traumatising it would be.

The way it's directed doesn't give that impression though. And it doesn't solve all the other issues with the probe.

Despite all that, it does work as an episode. TNG does have a lot of mystery episodes that lose a lot after the first viewing, when you're no longer trying to figure out whats going on.

Malcy

Quote from: Lemming on January 17, 2022, 06:12:09 PMSurprised to see a couple of lukewarm reactions to the episode, I thought I was more or less the only one who filed this episode under "solid but not outstanding". Just about everywhere else on the internet considers it a 10/10 instant classic, bar a couple of threads on TrekBBS.

I think a lot of it comes down to how the viewer reacts to the probe (a thing of bittersweet beauty vs a nonconsensual mental torture device), and how much you relate to Picard's dream life (idyllic, peaceful, meaningful existence vs mind-numbing flute-based misery).

I dunno, it's definitely one of my favourite Trek episodes and one I still cry or nearly cry at depending on my state of mind. It's not a go to for a release of emotion like DS9's 'The Visitor' is though but its very much a go to episode when I'm down and just need something a bit lovely for comfort.

I tend not to look to deep into anything. It just ruins it I feel. Take it as it as, enjoy it or not. Trek is very much my comfort blanket as such. Feeling shite? Put on some Trek. Need cheering up? Put on some Trek. Need to vent some emotion? Put on Trek.

It covers it. Any feeling, mood, there is a Trek episode to suit it. I feel people over analyse things these days and it just ruins it for them. Things are what they are, enjoy them for it or don't. Look too much into something and you can remove the enjoyment from it.

Does that make sense to anyone or am I just pissed? And the version released on various soundtracks is lovely. In fact I'm not switching to side B of Chas & Dave until i listen to it.


Also while I'm here can we show a bit of love for the alternate TNG theme music that was never used? I just thought about it and whistled the theme to Lower Decks!


And I think you have seen TNG before Lemming
Spoiler alert
But it does make an appearance again fairly soon but a little too briefly.
[close]

mothman

Quote from: Malcy on January 17, 2022, 08:51:33 PMAnd I think you have seen TNG before Lemming
Spoiler alert
But it does make an appearance again fairly soon but a little too briefly.
[close]
And I'll be looking forward to posting this:
Spoiler alert

(not my image!)
[close]

Malcy

Quote from: mothman on January 17, 2022, 10:49:22 PMAnd I'll be looking forward to posting this:
Spoiler alert

(not my image!)
[close]

Spoiler alert
Love it, thanks. Tough day that turned out well just got an extra bonus!
[close]

mothman

Quote from: Malcy on January 17, 2022, 10:55:03 PM
Spoiler alert
Love it, thanks. Tough day that turned out well just got an extra bonus!
[close]
If you've enjoyed your visit to Mothy Towers, do please take the time to sign our guest book. ;-)

Lemming

#1608
S05E26 - Time's Arrow: Part 1

The discovery of aliens visiting earth in the late 19th century forces the Enterprise crew to investigate, during which Data is inadvertently sent to the past alone.

- EXCITING: Evidence of alien life on Earth during the 19th century has emerged. Because the Enterprise is perpetually close enough to Earth to zoom back, Picard and Data go to look.

- Colt revolver and a watch, oooh, wow. The more interesting evidence is a depicatated android head. It looks a lot like Data except with a slightly cooler hairstyle.

- It's determined  that this is Data's head, and that he's gonna die in the 19th century, and have his head ripped off. Geordi makes the less dramatic discovery that the aliens who visited Earth may have come from a specific system, so the Enterprise flies off to check it out.

- En route, Geordi asks how Data feels about finding his fucked up torn off head. Data is delighted that the discovery suggests that he's not immortal, which would have sucked. Guinan can't wait to get her claws in when she senses a tense conversation happening, so she swoops in to talk to Geordi. But she indicates she knows something more about the aliens-in-Victorian-times situation.

- Troi tries to give Riker a fast-paced corridor-based therapy session. Troi does a Data impression, which is just her own voice. Soon, they arrive at the destination, where they find a weird time thing going on. Data isn't picked for the away team, due to the whole head-torn-off situation.

- Inside a styrofoam cave with no life readings, Troi telepathically picks up like a trillion human lifeforms, all terrified. Where's the light coming from in these caves?! There's like huge spotlights in the background with no clear in-universe source.

- We'll need Data's POSITRONIC DECOMPILER for this one, forcing him down to the planet and inexorably towards his decapitation-riddled fate. After fucking about with a technobabble machine, Data phases out of existence, but can still speak to the crew. In this weird alternate phase mode, he can see a bunch of humanoid aliens with four arms hanging about the place, like Shokans from Mortal Kombat. He also describes an incredible scene of thousands of energy fragments, and you'll just have to take Brent Spiner's narration for it because the effects budget won't let us show it.

- Two of the aliens Data can see create a temporal distortion, after which he vanishes. "Commander Riker, report!" Picard yells after Data loses contact. Look at the way Riker looks around like a petrified meerkat at the first sign of trouble.


- Data has been transported to a 19th-century American street. The locals are like "the fuck's this". A newspaper identifies the year as 1893. He befriends an ill homeless guy.

- A Hotel Staff Guy in the street finally says what we're all thinking - Starfleet uniforms look like STUPID pyjamas.

- With no money, Data's basically fucked, until he hears about a poker game taking place nearby. He rocks up to flex his wicked-sick poker skills. After absolutely wrecking everyone's shit, Data gets money plus a GOOD HAT and SNAZZY VEST. He befriends Hotel Staff Guy by giving him an absolute shitton of money.

- Two people show up, a fancy man and a fancy woman. Fancy woman's handbag contains a RAY-LASER which she zaps ill homeless guy from earlier with! ALIENS!!!

- Back in the future, in the briefing room aboard the Enterprise, everyone comes up with the most absolute fuckbrained takes on what's happening. Geordi sets to work building another technobabble device to let them travel through time themselves and rescue Data.

- Guinan's sprinkling cocaine into all kinds of piss-coloured drinks at like 2 AM. She's called Picard to speak with her.

-
QuoteGUINAN: Starfleet captains don't usually accompany away teams.
PICARD: It's general policy.
Weak. Kirk always lead away teams every time (which is probably what got the practice banned).

- Guinan tells Picard to join the away team, and hints that she's waiting in the past to meet him. The scene cuts away, so Picard presumably just thinks "alright" in response to this absolutely peculiar bit of information and strides off towards the transporter room.

- Back in the past, Data's built some crazy shit in his hotel room. Hotel Staff Guy walks in to enthuse about capitalism. Like most Americans, he believes he's an entrepreneurial millionaire-in-waiting.

- In a newspaper, Data sees Guinan, decked out with an absolutely fucking wicked Victorian-era hat.

- Mark Twain is destroying his lungs with big cigars at a party. PAN CAMERA LEFT- Madame Guinan is there in a big dress. The party looks like a gathering of extras from the Karma Chameleon music vid.

- Twain absolutely will not stop going on about the age of the Earth and the time humans first emerged. Guinan has the knowledge to set this nonsense straight but she sits there being typically cryptic instead.

- Data shows up to the party looking for Guinan. He barges past the doorman hoping that Guinan has followed him from the future and will recognise him, but nope, this is past-Guinan, and she's never met him. He mentions meeting her on a starship though and she ditches Twain (thank god) to go outside and grill Data.

- He tells her the whole deal - he's from the Enterprise, they're friends in the 24th century, he's come back here against his will, etc. Guinan believes it since she's already a spcaefaring alien and all that. But TWAIN has EAVESDROPPED.

- Back in the 24th century, Geordi's ready to rock with his TIMEDRIVE and Picard's taken Guinan's advice to join the away team to ensure the integrity of the timeline.

- Geordi's TEMPORAL TECHNOPHASEDRIVE lets everyone see the weird aliens. Troi realises the human life she detected earlier was some kind of echo of dead people who perished in the cave. The aliens are a pack of bastards. Absolutely everyone (except Worf, lol) enters the TIMEGASH to pursue them.

This is fun, especially the scenes with Data in the past. The character works really well when he's separated from the command structure and the safety of the ship, and forced to act independently in a foreign setting.

As with most Star Trek two parters, it does feel padded, but that's just how it goes. At least most of the padding is fun fluff with Data slaying at poker and such.

The mandatory cliffhanger is unintentionally pretty funny - everyone just calmly steps through the time portal, and we already know that their destination is a relatively non-hostile location where Data and past-Guinan are waiting for them. Won't exactly keep the audience on the edge of their seats over the summer, not quite on par with the stakes of "the Enterprise is getting fucked by Borg and Picard has been assimilated".

7/10



Hang on, STATS FANS, because it's soon time to collect mine and daf's ratings for the season! I think season five will boast the highest average ratings so far, but we'll see.

Wonderful Butternut



French Dukat (complete with horrible French pronunciation that Data pisses all over). 10/10

daf

125 | "Time's Arrow Part 1"



One For The Old Heads

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Highlights :
• Data's Antique Cave Noggin
• Guinan's Cocktail Chemistry
• "I am a Frenchman"
• Hotel . . . Brian?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Other Bits :
• Red Hot Poker #7 : Data's Solo Card-Sharp Stinger
• Data's Massive Tips
• Calling it now : Bellboy = Henry Ford!!!
• Mark Twain's Smokey Ear-wigging
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Score :

The Culture Bunker

I enjoyed this episode and the next one a lot on first watching and I've revisited a few times. Favourite bit - when Data lifts up the anvil and suddenly realises he shouldn't be showing off his strength and gives a deadpan "ouch" or suchlike (apologies if that particular scene is in Part II).

MojoJojo

Maybe it's because I've listening to a lot of podcasts about 19th century Americans, but it did bother me a bit that Guinan could wonder around in posh clothes as a black woman in 1890s America. I find it a bit tedious when people complain about black actors being cast in Merlin or whatever, but that feels a bit different than the revisionism here, where it's likely Guinan would be lynched within a week for daring to dress nicely. About six years later DS9 has "Far beyond the stars".

Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on January 20, 2022, 10:25:45 AM

French Dukat (complete with horrible French pronunciation that Data pisses all over). 10/10

The episode won an emmy for "Outstanding Individual Achievement in Hairstyling for a Series" - which hairstyle do we reckon that's for?

Overall, I think Mark Twain lets the episode down. Hard to tell if it's the script or the actor, but he fails to lift the scenes he's in, leaving it episode at a sort ok-ish level. It also feels like they were going to go for a cliffhanger about killing Data off, like TBOBW, but rightly chickened out when they realised no one would buy it.

Mr Trumpet

California was one of the more liberal US states in the second half of the 19th century I think. Partly because it had been part of anti-slavery Mexico within living memory. Not a great place for an alien who looks like Guinan to visit, but not nearly as bad as some other states.

Blumf

This two parter never really grabbed me. Just a bit dull. In comparison to TOS's The City on the Edge of Forever, it's nothing.

Lemming

Quote from: MojoJojo on January 20, 2022, 10:48:07 AMMaybe it's because I've listening to a lot of podcasts about 19th century Americans, but it did bother me a bit that Guinan could wonder around in posh clothes as a black woman in 1890s America. I find it a bit tedious when people complain about black actors being cast in Merlin or whatever, but that feels a bit different than the revisionism here, where it's likely Guinan would be lynched within a week for daring to dress nicely. About six years later DS9 has "Far beyond the stars".

That did cross my mind when watching it, but I felt like I'd expose my ignorance of late 19th century America if I tried to comment in any substantial way, so just settled for the remark about how the party resembles the comically revisionist utopianism of the Karma Chameleon video.

Speaking of DS9, that reminded me of Sisko's complaint about the Vic Fontaine program, and Kasidy Yates' response:
QuoteSISKO: You want to know? You really want to know what my problem is? I'll tell you. Las Vegas nineteen sixty two, that's my problem. In nineteen sixty two, black people weren't very welcome there. Oh, sure they could be performers or janitors, but customers? Never.
KASIDY: Maybe that's the way it was in the real Vegas, but that is not the way it is at Vic's. I have never felt uncomfortable there and neither has Jake.
SISKO: But don't you see, that's the lie. In nineteen sixty two, the Civil Rights movement was still in its infancy. It wasn't an easy time for our people and I'm not going to pretend that it was.
KASIDY: Baby, I know that Vic's isn't a totally accurate representation of the way things were, but it isn't meant to be. It shows us the way things could have been. The way they should've been.
SISKO: We cannot ignore the truth about the past.
KASIDY: Going to Vic's isn't going to make us forget who we are or where we came from. What it does is it reminds us that we're no longer bound by any limitations, except the ones we impose on ourselves.
Always resurfaces in my mind whenever there's media that appears to romanticise an awful period of the past, glossing over the reality. Both arguments are pretty convincing but ultimately I think I'm with Sisko. In my FPS games thread over in the tech subforum, I keep complaining about WW2 games that portray the worst and most atrocity-ridden period of humanity's history as a bit of high-spirited knockabout fun, usually with some kind of American nationalist bent.

So the portrayal of 19th-century America, and Guinan's role as a popular and well-to-do socialite, did feel awkward. At best it's what Kasidy Yates suggests, a bit of escapism in defiance of reality and a way to cope with the past by recreating it in the image of our own values, and at worst it's the glorification and whitewashing of America's history in a way that might comfort the (presumably predominantly American) viewership, where we all collectively pretend that someone of Guinan's race and sex wouldn't be getting shat on 24/7 both legally and socially.

Lemming

THE GRAND SEASON FIVE SUMMARY

Redemption: Part 2 - me 6/10, daf 5/10
Darmok - me 10/10, daf 9/10
Ensign Ro - me 8/10, daf 5/10
Silicon Avatar - me 4/10, daf 4/10
Disaster - me 10/10, daf 10/10
The Game - me 4/10, daf 7/10
Unification: Part 1 - me 6/10, daf 7/10
Unification: Part 2 - me 4/10, daf 6/10
A Matter of Time - me 6/10, daf 7/10
New Ground - me 8/10, daf 5/10
Hero Worship - me 6/10, daf 5/10
Violations - me 3/10, daf 3/10
The Masterpiece Society - me 2/10, daf 3/10
Conundrum - me 7/10, daf 5/10
Power Play - me 8/10, daf 5/10
Ethics - me 6/10, daf 5/10
The Outcast - me 2/10, daf 8/10
Cause and Effect - me 7/10, daf 9/10
The First Duty - me 4/10, daf 5/10
Cost of Living - me 5/10, daf 6/10
The Perfect Mate - me 3/10, daf 4/10
Imaginary Friend - me 8/10, daf 6/10
I, Borg - me 8/10, daf 9/10
The Next Phase - me 6/10, daf 5/10
The Inner Light - me 7/10, daf 9/10
Time's Arrow: Part 1 - me 7/10, daf 7/10

My average is a cool 6.0, while daf's is 6.11!
For reference, previous averages:
Season 1 average = me 3.5, daf 3.3
Season 2 average = me 4.9, daf 4.7
Season 3 average = me 5.3, daf 5.1
Season 4 average = me 5.7, daf 4.8

Some exciting firsts: this season had my first ever 10/10 (Darmok), and the first ever LEMMING-DAF-CONSENSUS 10/10 (Disaster)! Also the first season to break the 6/10 average barrier for both of us.

According to the ratings, my top episodes were: Darmok and Disaster, both 10s, and then a raft of 8/10s - Power Play, Ensign Ro, New Ground, Imaginary Friend, and I, Borg.

This is the best season yet, according to our ratings, and I think I agree. However, just to shit all over the celebratory mood, one thing I would say is that while the quality of the writing and plots is on an almost objective incline, the show does feel a bit rote at times, lacking the energy and dynamism of seasons two and three especially. But with plots as strong as Darmok, it doesn't really matter.

Blumf

Quote from: MojoJojo on January 20, 2022, 10:48:07 AMMaybe it's because I've listening to a lot of podcasts about 19th century Americans, but it did bother me a bit that Guinan could wonder around in posh clothes as a black woman in 1890s America.

Maybe the Plaçage setup they had in New Orleans could cover it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pla%C3%A7age

Very... uncomfortable concept, but apparently worked well for both parties on occasion, apparently.

daf

Quote from: Lemming on January 20, 2022, 05:47:40 PMMy average is a cool 6.0, while daf's is 6.11!
For reference, previous averages:
Season 1 average = me 3.5, daf 3.3
Season 2 average = me 4.9, daf 4.7
Season 3 average = me 5.3, daf 5.1
Season 4 average = me 5.7, daf 4.8

Some exciting firsts: this season had my first ever 10/10 (Darmok), and the first ever LEMMING-DAF-CONSENSUS 10/10 (Disaster)! Also the first season to break the 6/10 average barrier for both of us.

According to the ratings, my top episodes were: Darmok and Disaster, both 10s, and then a raft of 8/10s - Power Play, Ensign Ro, New Ground, Imaginary Friend, and I, Borg.

Still not sure what happened with my low scores for Season 4 [four 2/10's!] - I think I may have been a bit knackered or in a bad mood or something!

My Series 5 | Top 5 :
1. Disaster
2. I, Borg
3. Cause and Effect
4. The Inner Light
5. Darmok

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

I rewatched both episodes of Time's Arrow in the last few days. It's an episode I felt more fondly about when I was a young child whose favourite character was Data. But now it feels like an excuse for most of the cast except Worf to fuck around in the 19th century. Mark Twain grates after a while. I have questions about the aliens and the resolution but I'll keep them for part two.