Main Menu

Support CaB

Subscribers don't see this.

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

July 02, 2022, 06:50:17 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Star Trek Picard S2

Started by Malcy, June 16, 2021, 06:50:29 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mobbd

Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on May 07, 2022, 01:39:51 PM
Spoiler alert
I "love" that humanity fixed pollution and Global Warming in the 21st century with magic alien spores, instead of, oh I dunno, learning to take better care of the environment after First Contact.
[close]

That's some midichlorians-level bullshit right there.

kalowski

I'm not a violent man, but everyone involved with this needs to be decapitated.
Spoiler alert
What the FUCK was that scene with Wesley? Really, what was it? Some weird putty Wil Wheaton mumbling out some terrible dialogue.
[close]

Lemming

Spoiler alert
I think it was part of the mad dash to remove absolutely everyone (except Raffi and Seven) from the cast to clear the path for the third season (aka the third desperate attempt).

"Alright, we've gotten Rios to stay behind for love, we've gotten Jurati to go off as a Borg Queen. Shit, what do we do with Soji? Wil Wheaton's looking for work, isn't he? Can we use him somehow? (checks Memory Alpha) He went off with the Traveller? Alright, that works, Soji's a traveller, going off into the cosmos and never to be seen again."
[close]

JamesTC

Soji is still there in the present. As is Englor. But they are both confirmed as not returning. Think it is just Raffi, Seven and robo-Picard as the returning characters.

Mobbd

Leaving Rios in the past is like leaving a surgical sponge in a patient's stomach.

Alberon

It's farcical. Especially as he set out to make a difference once he stayed behind.

Chairman Yang

Hahaha this thread is an amazing read by the way.

Killing off alt-characters in order to rid the show of the actors' main characters is fucking incredible.

Mobbd

Sorry, but can someone please explain to me the timeline ramification of ST:PIC so I don't have to fucking watch it?

From what I understand, Q sent them to an alternate present. (The Confederation badness was not happening in the Prime timeline). Then, they went backwards in time within that alternate timeline to change it (making Picard and his crew the only people we know of to have yet travelled in both time and dimension other than Time Soldier Yor). So any changes they made re: the Borg is only in that alternate timeline to which Q sent them, right? Our Prime timeline is unaltered, yes? TNG-VOY all happened and have not been retconned?

Someone said earlier in the thread that Q didn't send them to an alternate reality but an alternate timeline. But in Star Trek, that's the same thing. We learn from ENT about the historic deviations that led to the creation of the Mirror Universe and in the 2009 film about the historic deviations led to the Kelvin timeline. Another timeline in Trek is another universe.

Alberon

I can't be bothered to trudge through it, but is there an explanation about how the new-Borg fit into the history of the old-Borg? Are there two collectives borging around the galaxy or what?

Lemming

Quote from: Mobbd on May 09, 2022, 03:12:20 PMSorry, but can someone please explain to me the timeline ramification of ST:PIC so I don't have to fucking watch it?

From what I understand, Q sent them to an alternate present. (The Confederation badness was not happening in the Prime timeline). Then, they went backwards in time within that alternate timeline to change it (making Picard and his crew the only people we know of to have yet travelled in both time and dimension other than Time Soldier Yor). So any changes they made re: the Borg is only in that alternate timeline to which Q sent them, right? Our Prime timeline is unaltered, yes? TNG-VOY all happened and have not been retconned?

As best I can understand it:
Picard was called out on a mission aboard Rios' ship because of his knowledge of Borg. The ship was seemingly attacked by a new BORG SUPERQUEEN. Q sent the gang to an altered future (but within the prime universe) in which Seven was the president of the Evil Federation. They went back to 2024 to ensure that a woman called Renee Picard went on a spaceflight, which would save the future. During their batshit nonsense adventure, Rios fell in love and chose to stay behind, and Jurati merged with the Borg Queen to become the Good Queen.

Cut back to the future where Picard realises the BORG SUPERQUEEN must be Jurati, and tells everyone to stand down. The SUPERQUEEN removes its mask to reveal Jurati, and says she's here to help. I'm not sure if there was an explanation as to what she'd been doing for the past few centuries, but apparently, this had no effect on anything, and TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY all played out as normal. Picard was still assimilated in BoBW (hence him still being called out on this mission for his Borg knowledge), and Seven of Nine had all her original Borg implants back (even though she'd already been given them back by Jurati, who had to give her her exact original implants back in order to heal a wound on her torso, for some reason).

Picard meets with Whoopi-Guinan at the end and she teases him by pointing out that, when they met in episode one, she already knew about his upcoming adventure and put an old photograph of herself and Rios on the bar as a clue.

Since Rios was apparently always in the past, and the Jurati SUPERQUEEN always existed, we're presumably dealing with a stable time loop (as I failed to get my head around in the Red Dwarf thread re: Stasis Leak). What exactly the Jurati SUPERQUEEN has actually been doing all this time, why we've never heard anything about her, and why she made no moves to stop the Bad Queen is a mystery, unless she too wanted to preserve the timeline by doing more or less nothing for 400 years.

How this plays out from Guinan's perspective is the biggest mystery. She meets Picard in 2024 with no memory of who he is, then befriends Rios and lives on Earth with him for many years. This ensures the future in which Time's Arrow occurs, meaning that as soon as Renee goes into space, Picard (in the 24th Century) went to the 19th Century, which means Guinan should have the memories now. But she doesn't. Presumably, the memories of Time's Arrow just... pop into her head at some point, fully-formed. Reality changes around her and she just remembers both realities, or something.

Mr Trumpet

I think Lemming has it 100% right. Jurati's Borg splitters stay hidden for 400 years building their cool spaceship, presumably trying not to interfere in the course of history that led to their creation in the first place.

Sherman Krank

Quote from: Mobbd on May 08, 2022, 11:37:53 PMLeaving Rios in the past is like leaving a surgical sponge in a patient's stomach.
Quote from: Alberon on May 08, 2022, 11:40:57 PMIt's farcical. Especially as he set out to make a difference once he stayed behind.
That actually works if the (pre-Nazi) timeline they originally came from was the timeline where Rios stayed behind. So even though Rios' presence in the past would have changed the timeline beyond recognition it's the timeline they regard as history.
Nice Borg Lady staying behind is more problematic what with the Borg being a linked collective. Even if the nice Borg stayed in the Alpha quadrant, when the naughty Borg turned up and started assimilating as soon as they assimilated someone who'd met or even heard about the nice Borg they'd know about them and consider them a far greater threat than a bunch of primitive meat bags.

Quote from: Mobbd on May 09, 2022, 03:12:20 PM...Then, they went backwards in time within that alternate timeline to change it...
That seems to be what those responsible are claiming but it makes no sense. They were sent back in time to three days before the event that changed the timeline to stop it from happening and you can't be within something that doesn't yet exist.
If they'd been sent back to three days after the event to fix it (say they had to build a rudimentary spaceship so they could go and get the magic space dust or whatever the hell it was meant to be) then it would still have been shite but at least made sense.
 
I suspect the writers were watching old DS9 episodes for ideas and have confused an alternate reality/timeline with a parallel universe.
When the DS9 cast wanted a go at being the baddies the writers used a parallel universe so they could piss about as much as they wanted and when they were done whatever happened in the parallel universe stayed in the parallel universe.

After watching Strange New Worlds I now also suspect that Paddy Stewpot has a clause in his contract that gives him script approval and his ego demanded so many rewrites that it fucked everything up.

Malcy

Didn't Guinan have the picture of Rios behind the bar the whole time but Picard just didn't notice it when he was there in episode 1?

Mobbd

Lemming, you're a marvel. Please accept a sincere thank you for taking the time to explain this gobbledygook.

Quote from: Lemming on May 09, 2022, 04:43:10 PMAs best I can understand it:
Picard was called out on a mission aboard Rios' ship because of his knowledge of Borg. The ship was seemingly attacked by a new BORG SUPERQUEEN. Q sent the gang to an altered future (but within the prime universe) in which Seven was the president of the Evil Federation.

Okay, so it was a/the Prime Universe future. Okay. We'll overlook the idea in Star Trek that the future might not necessarily play out in the way that we have glimpsed. I guess Q just knows it's inevitable unless the intervention is made. Urgh. Fine.

Quote from: Lemming on May 09, 2022, 04:43:10 PMThey went back to 2024 to ensure that a woman called Renee Picard went on a spaceflight, which would save the future.

But why that, I wonder? Why so far back? There was nothing that could be done in the present, without going back in time? Bit hard to believe, isn't it?

Quote from: Lemming on May 09, 2022, 04:43:10 PMDuring their batshit nonsense adventure, Rios fell in love and chose to stay behind, and Jurati merged with the Borg Queen to become the Good Queen.

Cut back to the future where Picard realises the BORG SUPERQUEEN must be Jurati, and tells everyone to stand down. The SUPERQUEEN removes its mask to reveal Jurati, and says she's here to help. I'm not sure if there was an explanation as to what she'd been doing for the past few centuries, but apparently, this had no effect on anything, and TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY all played out as normal. Picard was still assimilated in BoBW (hence him still being called out on this mission for his Borg knowledge), and Seven of Nine had all her original Borg implants back (even though she'd already been given them back by Jurati, who had to give her her exact original implants back in order to heal a wound on her torso, for some reason).

Picard meets with Whoopi-Guinan at the end and she teases him by pointing out that, when they met in episode one, she already knew about his upcoming adventure and put an old photograph of herself and Rios on the bar as a clue.

Since Rios was apparently always in the past, and the Jurati SUPERQUEEN always existed, we're presumably dealing with a stable time loop (as I failed to get my head around in the Red Dwarf thread re: Stasis Leak). What exactly the Jurati SUPERQUEEN has actually been doing all this time, why we've never heard anything about her, and why she made no moves to stop the Bad Queen is a mystery, unless she too wanted to preserve the timeline by doing more or less nothing for 400 years.

How this plays out from Guinan's perspective is the biggest mystery. She meets Picard in 2024 with no memory of who he is, then befriends Rios and lives on Earth with him for many years. This ensures the future in which Time's Arrow occurs, meaning that as soon as Renee goes into space, Picard (in the 24th Century) went to the 19th Century, which means Guinan should have the memories now. But she doesn't. Presumably, the memories of Time's Arrow just... pop into her head at some point, fully-formed. Reality changes around her and she just remembers both realities, or something.

I find myself caring about this stuff very, very little. Do you care as an actual viewer? Christ. None of it matters at all, does it?

Yet I feel like I've been in a brain-kicking machine just trying to understand it. And all for nothing because we're right back to where we were before we even heard about the dark future. Well done, Team Picard. What a waste of time. And what a fucking mess.

Alberon



Lemming

"I've never seen one before, no one has. But I'm guessing it's a plot hole."

"So that thing's spewing shit back into the franchise?"

Quote from: Mobbd on May 09, 2022, 07:14:14 PMI find myself caring about this stuff very, very little. Do you care as an actual viewer? Christ. None of it matters at all, does it?

Correct. However - not even joking when I say this - it was all worth it for the scene in which robo-Picard is run over by Evil Soong in a Tesla. There's quite a few laugh-out-loud moments in the show (Seven and Raffi running towards the ship while knifing Borgified Mercs with Counter-Strike knife sound effects was another side-splitter) but nothing's made me laugh as much as that. Paused and did a frame-by-frame analysis and everything, absolutely savouring it.

JamesTC

Did they remove the Borg from the walls of the house?

I mean, I know they didn't. I just find pondering the question funny.

Lemming

Quote from: JamesTC on May 09, 2022, 11:44:01 PMDid they remove the Borg from the walls of the house?

I mean, I know they didn't. I just find pondering the question funny.

The Borg are still there but everyone who saw them in the intervening centuries took a vow of secrecy that forbade them to ever mention their existence, as Spock and Pike and half the galactic population did with the existence of Michael Burnham and her ship. Picard saw the Borg as a child but, again, took a vow of secrecy. He already knew of the Borg but still acted surprised during "Q Who?" to keep up the charade.

phantom_power

Did it seem they were setting Raffi and Enron up as love interests so she could get back with him when the timeline was restored? And then she just snogs Seven, which came out of nowhere, unless we were meant to take their bickering as flirting?

Chairman Yang

I feel like Raffi and Seven was a thing set up in the final picosecond of series 1?

Does this mean Rafaella finally been allowed a second emotion after Unreasonable Anger?

JamesTC

Raffi and Seven held hands at the end of Season 1. I'm pretty sure that was their only interaction up to that point outside of group scenes.

phantom_power

Oh right, my mistake. Brilliant storytelling then

Malcy

Apparently Wesley was due to be in another Trek show but that was overruled and he went to Picard instead.


https://trekmovie.com/2022/05/09/star-trek-producers-fought-over-which-new-shows-get-to-bring-back-wesley-crusher/

kalowski

Didn't Agnes do loads of things in AI and Android technology? But if she's been Borg queen since 2024 I guess she didn't. Including anything she did in Picard S1.

Malcy

Quote from: kalowski on May 10, 2022, 05:58:50 PMDidn't Agnes do loads of things in AI and Android technology? But if she's been Borg queen since 2024 I guess she didn't. Including anything she did in Picard S1.

She went back to 2024 after doing those things though.

grainger

#476
Quote from: timebug on May 06, 2022, 09:34:44 AMI'll stick my head up over the parapet and say; I enjoyed it....for what it was!
Aside from the virtually pointless Wil Wheaton scene,as a long time fan of most of the franchise, I just took it as a nice sci-fi romp. Okay, the real fans who remember every detail of previous 'Trek's will find fault. But I don't have that sort of eidetic memory, so I just sat back and enjoyed it.

I don't hate Picard (the show) because it doesn't match up with tiny morsels of canon. I dislike the show (well S1, I didn't bother with S2), because they made a cynical, grimdark programme that was the opposite of what ST was about, or at least what made it special for me. This could have been a great show in that unique spirit. Or maybe it couldn't - I don't know which possibility is sadder.

If anyone else enjoyed it, then fine, but I just wanted to point out that there are bigger reasons to not enjoy it than mere nitpicky differences with established canon.

phantom_power

I wouldn't mind it being grimdark if it was well-written but it confuses using long words with intelligent dialogue, out of nowhere shmaltz with emotion and giving someone so bad thing in their past they haven't reconciled with character development.

Mobbd

Quote from: timebug on May 06, 2022, 09:34:44 AMOkay, the real fans who remember every detail of previous 'Trek's will find fault. But I don't have that sort of eidetic memory, so I just sat back and enjoyed it.

Quote from: Mobbd on May 06, 2022, 10:35:10 AMI know supernerds like to nitpick (all part of the fun of watching Star Trek in my opinion but I can see why it annoys a lot of people) but DIS and PIC are so disrespectful to canon that it's a real struggle to see them as compatible at all. No need for an eidetic memory to feel that way imho.

I just chanced upon a good articulation of the "old joys of nitpicking versus New Trek rage" issue at Ex Astris Scientia where there's a cranky FAQ about Disco-"universe" continuity problems:

QuoteSo far in Star Trek, inconsistencies mostly came to pass because of negligence, lacking time or limited budget. Aside from the Klingon metamorphosis between TOS and TMP, almost nothing was ever altered with the explicit idea that it is more than a visual update. For instance, the Klingon K't'inga class in the same movie is essentially a more detailed version of the D7 from TOS, with only slightly changed dimensions. In Discovery, a lot of work and money was invested in a new look that definitely isn't radically different by accident.

I think this is why it hurts a supernerd when casual fans or non-fans say "get over it" or "jesus, they made more of your precious cancelled show, what's wrong with you?" or "Star Trek always got things wrong about its own continuity."

Here's the key thing. It was fun to nitpick continuities once upon a time. What Ex Astris says there explains it. It's because fans could spot minor production clangers, feel clever/attentive for spotting them, and say a good-natured "aha, busted!" to production. It was joyful fan engagement. A back-and-forth between the screen that separates creator and audience (a screen that used to be otherwise almost completely impermeable, pre-Internet and regular mega-conventions).

This is why supernerds get mad about the insane and deliberate aesthetic choices of New Trek. It's because the mistakes aren't minor acts of negligence. They're vandalism; a deliberate ripping apart and/or binning of something held together by multiple Trek production teams and fans for decades simply because "new is cool".

Of course, they could have had "new is cool" legitimately if they only made sequel shows (like, eventually, Prodigy) or official reboots (like JJ) because the worst I can say about those is that they're "aesthetically not for me" and move on. But instead they had to spelunk around in history using prequels and time travel, destabilizing the world they're allegedly trying to expand upon, because the asset they want to strip lies in the past.

Sorry folks. I'm largely enjoying SNW in spite of this sort of thing, which is why I dropped my thoughts into the Picard thread rather than the SNW thread (this and to pick up an old line of conversation that I guess has been on my mind).

Malcy

Completely agree.

A lot of effort has gone into unnecessary and unwanted things. I'm totally baffled at so much in PIC/DSC. Just no need for it. The Okuda's are involved in these shows I'm sure, Nick Meyer too.

I refuse to believe that the Okuda's have just sat and nodded in agreement at the choices.

Apparently the TNG cast have been brought back as they didn't get a proper send-off in Nemesis and they are the series quite a lot.