Doctor Who Series 13: Goodbye, Mr. Chibs

[Midas]

I agree with this, but does RTD? I vaguely remember him commenting somewhere about how glibly his 'last of the Time Lords' arc is wrapped up by, essentially, Gallifrey ducking out of the way so that the daleks accidentally shoot each other.

Aye, it was in the Toby Hadoke interview.

EDIT: I can also imagine him not being thrilled with the Ecclestone regeneration at the end pretty much implying that the events of Rose take place almost immediately after the Doctor has apparently just exterminated his own race. Unless he just didn't look in the mirror for a few years (possible).

Tbf I think RTD mentioned somewhere that that line was never supposed to imply he had only just regenerated, and all those photos of Eccleston in Clive's shed were supposed to suggest he'd been around for a while already.

[Replies From View]

I vaguely remember RTD and Moffat both taking cheeky shots at each other in the Rose/Day of the Doctor Target novels.

But you always feel that these are "in character" shots - that they admire and respect what the other has done with the show, and are mocking each other in much the same way as we see the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors commenting on each other's appearance in the prelude to Day of the Doctor.  "3D really helps highlight the wrinkles" "yes and it really makes your chin stick out" - or whatever it was.  It's a friendly mocking when RTD and Moffat do it to each other.


Honestly, I can't imagine how RTD can be looking at Chibnall's work, beyond thinking about damage control and course correction.  I don't believe it'll ever be a joking matter that Chibnall has almost brought the show to its knees, because it's too true.  The closest we'll get to friendly banter about it is the remark after series 12 that the 60th anniversary story could be called The 256 Doctors (or whatever it was he said).

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Aye, it was in the Toby Hadoke interview.

Do we have a link for that?

[daf]

Tbf I think RTD mentioned somewhere that that line was never supposed to imply he had only just regenerated, and all those photos of Eccleston in Clive's shed were supposed to suggest he'd been around for a while already.

All of the stories he's recording for Big Finish are set before Rose. They haven't done the Titanic one yet, but it's almost inevitable they'll fill that hole eventually.

[daf]

Gah! Curse this new design - I keep hitting the quote button instead of edit!

[Mister Six]

Tbf I think RTD mentioned somewhere that that line was never supposed to imply he had only just regenerated, and all those photos of Eccleston in Clive's shed were supposed to suggest he'd been around for a while already.

That's bizarre. The Doctor has been aboard the Titanic and got involved in the JFK assassination and whatever else, but has at no point walked past a reflective surface?

I always thought he had those adventurers in the second or so between saying goodbye to Rose and coming back with a cheeky "Did I mention it travels in time?"

[thr0b]

It's believable; the Doctor hasn't ever really paid attention to their appearance. Catching a glimpse of himself while light-heartedly flirting with a new friend, and her randy mother (who draws attention to how he looks) is believable.

[frajer]

It's believable; the Doctor hasn't ever really paid attention to their appearance. Catching a glimpse of himself while light-heartedly flirting with a new friend, and her randy mother (who draws attention to how he looks) is believable.

I love the gag when this is taken to the extreme and Matt Smith's freshly baked Doctor sees Prisoner Zero take on his exact form but hasn't had the chance to look in a mirror yet. "That's rubbish, who's that supposed to be then?"

[JamesTC]

I imagine The Doctor wasn't too bothered about checking out his appearance immediately after committing genocide. Maybe he took a long time to even want to look at himself after committing such an act.

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Even if he didn't do all the Titanic adventures etc before Rose (and instead did them in the gap at the end of the episode), he could have spent months lamenting in the TARDIS about the Time War about what he thought had happened on Gallifrey.

Years, even.  Hating himself, refusing to look at his image in a mirror, trudging around the vast TARDIS interior forming the cold, hard persona we found at the start of series 1.

[Mister Six]

And then he's happy, while alone, to look in a mirror as part of some hilarious onscreen japes?

Nahh.

[Midas]

Do we have a link for that?

Actually it wasn't in the Toby Hadoke interview, it was in this interview with Frank Skinner.

[olliebean]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc28I-BIs7w

In which Chris Chibnall reveals that he thinks Swarm and Azure were historically sworn enemies of the Doctor, and he feels like Division put Azure into her "brutal memory-wipe witness protection" on Earth.

[frajer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc28I-BIs7w

In which Chris Chibnall reveals that he thinks Swarm and Azure were historically sworn enemies of the Doctor, and he feels like Division put Azure into her "brutal memory-wipe witness protection" on Earth.

Bloody hell, I genuinely forgot they kept mentioning they "knew the Doctor of old" like it was going to be important and/or interesting, to the point where rumours abounded they were going to be tied into the Doctor's now unknown species.

Lazy hack bastard.

EDIT: Just watched the whole thing. Even Chibnall sounds bored. And why wouldn't he, recounting such an inconsistent, unengaging sequence of half-baked events that should never have gone beyond the scripting stage.

[olliebean]

Also apart from the Doctor, the Ravagers and Tecteun, no mention is made in that video of any other characters, including Yas and Dan.

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And then he's happy, while alone, to look in a mirror as part of some hilarious onscreen japes?

Nahh.

I'm suggesting he's already taken enough time to himself by that point.  Once he's interacting again with people at the start of series 1, he's as ready as he'll ever be to stop and gurn in a mirror.

It's not necessary to assume that he went straight from his Hurt to Eccleston regeneration into the first minutes of Rose, is all I'm saying.  Nothing confirms he didn't spend three years furiously smashing shit up in the TARDIS, and either happened not to be around any reflective surfaces or chose not to look in any.

[JamesTC]

He might have just had a haircut.

[Mister Six]

I'm suggesting he's already taken enough time to himself by that point.  Once he's interacting again with people at the start of series 1, he's as ready as he'll ever be to stop and gurn in a mirror.

It's not necessary to assume that he went straight from his Hurt to Eccleston regeneration into the first minutes of Rose, is all I'm saying.  Nothing confirms he didn't spend three years furiously smashing shit up in the TARDIS, and either happened not to be around any reflective surfaces or chose not to look in any.

Aye, I suppose.

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He might have just had a haircut.

which one hahahaaaa!!!!!


no but seriously which hair did he have cut snrirrkkk!!!!!

[mothman]

I'm sure he'd have seen his reflection before. He just hadn't been in the mood to joke about his appearance up until then.

That just goes to show how special Rose was. *rolls eyes*

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I'm sure he'd have seen his reflection before. He just hadn't been in the mood to joke about his appearance up until then.

That just goes to show how special Rose was. *rolls eyes*

I admittedly don't remember the scene in minute detail, but I definitely had the impression that he was observing and commenting on a face that he hadn't seen before - RTD's nod to previous incarnations doing the exact same thing in their first episodes.  Unfortunately it struggles to make sense when it's not immediately after a regeneration, and it all feels quite inorganic, as well - rushed and just off somehow.

I can't imagine why he would do that if he had seen his reflection before.  I certainly don't accept that it's because Rose was imprinting on his life already so he was seeing his face afresh.

So you're left with two possibilities:  he's literally fresh from his regeneration from Hurt, which just feels like not enough time after the events of Day of the Doctor, or he's seeing his face for the first time after a unspecified period of self-inflicted isolation or somesuch.


This is what I like about gaps, by the way - there's space to add little details when you're not entirely happy with how things have worked out.  It's the polar opposite of the ethos that brought us the Timeless Child.

[JamesTC]

I'm sure he'd have seen his reflection before. He just hadn't been in the mood to joke about his appearance up until then.

That just goes to show how special Rose was. *rolls eyes*

The thing is that Rose was special but not for the reasons her big fans think. Rose is pretty bog standard in Who. There were companions in Doctor Who up to that point who were smarter, braver, more independent and a hell of a lot more interesting. In many ways she was a backwards step.

But what she represented to The Doctor was a return to adventuring. A return to being The Doctor. In my mind, this is why The Tenth Doctor loved her the way he did. It wasn't for who she was, it was for what she represented.

[mothman]

I'm just trying to find a way that rationalises the disparity, you know? Warming up, a few limbering exercises, like. We'll need to be doing a lot of it in tbh next year or two as the Chibnall Abominations get retconned out of existence.

[Blofelds Cat]

So you're left with two possibilities:  he's literally fresh from his regeneration from Hurt, which just feels like not enough time after the events of Day of the Doctor, or he's seeing his face for the first time after a unspecified period of self-inflicted isolation or somesuch.

When it was written it wouldnt have been The War Dr...it would have been McGann...3rd option could have been amnesia and he had not long regained his memories and was seeing his face for the 1st time again

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When it was written it wouldnt have been The War Dr...it would have been McGann...3rd option could have been amnesia and he had not long regained his memories and was seeing his face for the 1st time again

I refute that RTD would have been thinking of McGann at the time.  On the contrary, he was thinking of a fresh start without baggage.  That's all it was 'when it was written'.  Prior to The Day of the Doctor, the gap between McGann and Eccleston was only a gap, and John Hurt's War Doctor is what that become.

[Blofelds Cat]

That fresh start is not entirely correct...McGann was the 8th Dr and publicity for Nu Who in 2005 explicitly stated Eccles was the 9th...this allowed RTD to have his cake and eat it...he could draw a faint line between the Classic Series but as NuWho progressed cherry pick elements and incorporate them into the new series along with new continuity...after 15 years this has become too unwieldy and top heavy that I firmly believe he will do the same again especially following Chinballs toxic skip fire...whether he will repeat a soft reboot or year zero reinvention is unknown...

I re refute that RTD wrote the 2005 series knowing that there were pre Drs btween 8/9...War Dr was an 11th hour solution to a casting crisis that RTD played no part in...if Eccles was in the 50th as planned then McGann would have been defacto War Dr....

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I re refute that RTD wrote the 2005 series knowing that there were pre Drs btween 8/9...War Dr was an 11th hour solution to a casting crisis that RTD played no part in...if Eccles was in the 50th as planned then McGann would have been defacto War Dr....

I know all that already and I'm perturbed that I am coming across as needing that explaining.  However, Moffat himself said he wasn't comfortable with the idea of McGann being responsible for the ultimate Time War decision, and I think his solution - to have a repressed incarnation of the Doctor who didn't take that name - is far far superior than just bunging in either McGann or Eccleston.


The Day of the Doctor happened and I thought we were all discussing the re-viewing of Rose and series 1 in this light.  Unless you write the 50th anniversary story out of your personal head canon which is perfectly fine too.

[Blofelds Cat]

Agreed...War Dr was a nifty solution to a creative corner they got themselves out of...for a character who rejected the title Doctor in the 50th he was ironically the most Doctorish of the 3

[Mister Six]

I'm just trying to find a way that rationalises the disparity, you know? Warming up, a few limbering exercises, like. We'll need to be doing a lot of it in tbh next year or two as the Chibnall Abominations get retconned out of existence.

I'm not sure that'll happen, to be honest. I could see Gallifrey being restored, but I think the approach to Timeless Child and Flux will just be to ignore it and move along. Make it as clean a break as possible, and don't get bogged down in pre-RTD (phase 2) continuity.

[daf]

My solution would be to open up the watch and find out that the first Doctor was William Hartnell after all. Just make up some bollocks to explain it - The Master, The Valeyard or the Matrix lying - but just get it done.

If it turns out the Doctor is some amnesiac Space-Hitler with blood on their hands . . . well why bother continuing telling stories about that person?

Saying "Oh, that's not who I choose to be NOW" doesn't cut it - you are either "a good man/woman" or not . . and if not, frankly I'd rather be following the adventures of the Meddling Monk, The Rani . . . anyone else - The Doctor is currently soiled!