Doctor Who Series 13: Goodbye, Mr. Chibs

[mothman]

I really don't remember Orphan 55 being any worse than any of the others. Or those others being any better by comparison. Guess I wasn't paying attention...

[Mister Six]

I disagree with Sheepy in that I think the last couple of episodes of series 12 are substantially worse than the rest (except Orphan 55, which might be the worst nu-Who episode ever - Arachnids in the UK being merely absolute dogshit rather than absolute dogshit that's skin-crawlingly irritating) and agree with Replies that you can read the Wikipedia summary without losing any of the dramatic impact, especially as the climax to the season is just listening to The Master exposit for about five minutes while The Doctor stands rooted to the spot.

But to save you even that, I'm going to type up what I can remember of the season, although admittedly a lot of it has faded away like a bad dream since then. I'm also not convinced that you need to watch the middle of the season at all.

1-2: Spyfall, parts 1 and 2
Nothing of note happens, except that The Master turns up disguised as a spy named O and mentions something about "the lie of the Timeless Child". The Master reveals he's destroyed Gallifrey. Again.

5: Fugitive of the Judoon
The Judoon arrive on Earth, searching for some woman. The Doctor finds the woman, who's a tour guide, and they flee to somewhere the woman has half-recalled memories of. There, she digs up a second TARDIS and uses that technology from back in series 3 to turn into a Time Lord - turns out she is also a Doctor. The Judoon turn out to have been hired by Gallifreyan special ops who don't know Gallifrey has been destroyed, hinting that they (and the Mysterious Doctor) are from The Doctor's past. They have been using Mysterious Doctor to do dodgy black ops stuff. Mysterious Doctor tricks them into killing themselves and runs off. Captain Jack appears to Graham and says to tell The Doctor not to give the Cyberking the special Cyber weapon.

8: The Haunting of Villa Diodati
The Doctor and chums turn up to a "haunted house" during a storm on the night that Mary Shelley tells Percy Bysshe Shelley and Lord Byron the tale of Frankenstein. The haunting turns out to be due to a Cyberman weapon that's distorting spacetime. Also, the ghosts actually exist, although that's just kind of mentioned in passing and has no bearing on the plot, and Mary Shelley never tells the Frankenstein story but that doesn't seem to matter.  The hitherto unseen Cyberking turns up wanting the weapon and The Doctor has to choose between giving him a weapon that could kill billions and Shelley being murdered. Inexplicably she chooses to give the Cyberking the weapon. Don't worry, I'm sure she'll fix everything before anyone gets hurt!

9-10: Ascension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children
The Cyberking has used the weapon to raise a cyber army and kill all but seven human beings in the universe. Or maybe in just this half of the universe, the script is unclear. This does not seem to trouble The Doctor or companions, but that's not a plot point - Chibnall just doesn't seem to understand that it should.

The Doctor and "the fam" join the last few humans as they try to get to some dude called Koh Sharmus, who has a portal that will let them escape the Cyberking. They get to him, some more of them dying along the way, and it turns out the portal leads to - cliffhanger! - a ruined Gallifrey. The Master turns up and kidnaps The Doctor.

"The fam" run around avoiding Cyberman for the second episode, pretty much. The Master kills the Cyberking by shrinking him into a plastic toy, and plans to use the weapon inside him to destroy... stuff. He also traps The Doctor in a paralysis field and exposits for about five minutes: she isn't a normal Time Lord. She was found centuries ago as a little baby at the bottom of s mysterious vortex by a Gallifreyan scientist named... let's say Bob, because I can't remember. Bob discovered that the baby Doctor could regenerate, and did horrible experiments on her to steal her regenerating power. This power was them gifted to the other Gallifreyans, giving them the longevity to discover time travel. The Doctor's memory was wiped and she was raised as a regular Gallifreyan, unaware of her past. Somewhere before Spyfall, The Master found out about this stuff and was so incensed by the discovery that he was part Doctor that he destroyed Gallifrey.

The Doctor is shaken by this, but then gets over it pretty much immediately[nb]Only to relapse and have to get over it immediately all over again in the following New Year's Eve special.[/nb] and escapes the paralysis field.

Anyway, he uses Cyber tech to turn the bodies of the Gallifreyans into Cyber Time Lords with regenerative properties (But aren't they dead? How would regeneration repair the metal parts of their bodies? Don't think about it - Chibnall didn't), but The Doctor gets hold of the shrinky-dink Cyberking and threatens to use him to wipe out all life on Gallifrey after sending "the fam" back to the TARDIS, in a repeat of the Eccleston series minus any kind of emotional impact or companion agency whatsoever.

Just then, Koh Sharmus (remember him?) turns up and offers to sacrifice himself instead. The Doctor goes "Yeah, all right" like the unheroic coward she is, and legs it. The Master and some of his Cybes are heard escaping off-camera. Billions of humans remain slain by the Cyber army, which remains spread out across the galaxy, but Chibnall has forgotten them already.

And aside from a teaser for the New Year's special, which you don't have to bother with, that's it! Hopefully that saved you five hours of wasted life.

[Replies From View]

Also in Spyfall, the Doctor weaponises the Master's ethnicity against him by disengaging the perception filter that protected him against the Nazis.

"Now they'll see the real you!!" she says, and legs it as Nazis swarm into the room.



I'm not joking, but I wish I was.  There's so much more wrong with Chibnall's Who than terrible characterisation, tin-eared dialogue and incoherent plotting.

[Catalogue Trousers]

Yes, because the Master's been using a perception filter to pose as a Nazi officer. The Doctor's comment has nothing to to do with his 'ethnicity'. Jaysus.

I give up. This is now officially the Chibnall haters' club, if it hasn't been for a long time. Even when he does something good, you'll find a way to double-talk it into being crap.

Staying out of this thread for at least a good long while, perhaps permanently. Cheers.

[Replies From View]

Ok, well phone us if he does ever do anything good, and see if you are right.



The Doctor reports the Master as working as a British spy, then on her way out jams his facial perception filter and says "now they'll see the real you" as she leaves him to the fate of the Nazis.  It's clearly not a stretch to say she's weaponising his ethnicity against him - it's how I immediately interpreted it, and at the very best it's ambiguous in a way that is stupid.

[Replies From View]

Seriously I have never heard anything to explain how I'm wrong and Chibnall is actually brilliant - a few people have chipped in with anger every now and then that the consensus doesn't agree with them, but it never progresses into any detailed discussion because nobody wants to expand on what they think is good.  So of course nothing's going to change there, and if all it's doing is annoying you yet you don't want to change it, leaving is certainly the thing to do.  But that doesn't especially make me happy.


If anyone can communicate how brilliant this era of Doctor Who has been and how I am wrong, I would honestly listen.  I know my tantrum about the "Tim Shaw" naming doesn't suggest this but I honestly would.

[Alberon]

Trousers is right, but it is still a poorly judged idea.

Chibnall is capable of 'okay' but nothing of his work sings the way RTD's or Moffat's can. His wiping out of Gallifrey again and going straight back to a simply evil Master was massively ill thought out. The Timeless Child debacle has united a diverse fandom in condemnation in a way I've not seen before.

We might go overboard in our hyperbole but the basic attack on Chibnall is, I think, fair. His inability to present a consistent moral framework for the main character, write interesting dialogue or flesh out even the main characters just drags the show down.

[Ambient Sheep]

I disagree with Sheepy in that I think the last couple of episodes of series 12 are substantially worse than the rest (except Orphan 55, which might be the worst nu-Who episode ever...

Oh God, of course they are!  I never said they were good, just that they were necessary to follow his godawful series arc.

Very few eps are actually passable: Tesla, Fugitive and Villa Deodati might qualify.

[Mister Six]

Very few eps are actually passable: Tesla, Fugitive and Villa Deodati might qualify.

I sort of liked Praexis, even though a couple of the supporting characters are objectively badly written, and there's the usual Chibnall amoral Doctor bullshit (condemning the aliens' entire planet to extinction and not even addressing it).

Also in Spyfall, the Doctor weaponises the Master's ethnicity against him by disengaging the perception filter that protected him against the Nazis.

I was trying to limit it to the basics needed to get across the arc plot guff.

[mothman]

CT's not wrong, there is an awful lot of Chibnall hate goes on in this thread. But there always was, right from when he was announced as showrunner. And the show has not been good since he took over. It would be nice if the occasional good bits of Thirteen's tenure could be celebrated without someone immediately leaping in and saying that's wrong, or it happened by accident or in spite of Chibnall (or list all sorts of things he dud wrong that negate anything g he did right)...

[Replies From View]

Just go back to this for a second, here's the transcript:

DOCTOR: Sent a message to the Brits telling them how valuable you've been as a double agent, sending Nazi information to the British.
(He lets her go and runs to the lift.)
DOCTOR: Facial perception filter? Very easy to jam. Now they'll see the real you. Good luck.
(She gets into the lift and closes the door, leaving him to face the troopers.)
MASTER: I believe there's been a misunderstanding. Can we talk about this? You've always struck me as such reasonable people.

So the Doctor had already beaten the Master, there.  Why jam his facial perception filter?

And how are you reading "now they'll see the real you"?  He isn't actually a British spy, so it's not that they are seeing a truth there - the Doctor had fabricated that information to get the Master caught.


She doesn't say "now they'll see you weren't what they thought".  It's about the truth of what he is?  Well they're not going to figure out that he's a Time Lord are they, unless the Doctor means they'll discover he can regenerate but I can't understand why she would skip away with joy saying that.



Sorry, beating this one a bit but I'd love to know what immediately came to everyone's mind if it wasn't the Master's ethnicity.  At the very very best there's massive ambiguity, and I'm not a dunce for reaching the conclusion I reached.

[Replies From View]

It would be nice if the occasional good bits of Thirteen's tenure could be celebrated

I missed the list, I think.


I'll admit I was a dick about the Tim Shaw stuff, but that was my mood that day.  And I still don't think it's any good.  Also people have praised the theme tune, which I just hear as a smothered version of one of the Derbyshire ones and not worth hailing as one of the best of all time.  What are the other good bits?

[Mister Six]

The Doctor reports the Master as working as a British spy, then on her way out jams his facial perception filter and says "now they'll see the real you" as she leaves him to the fate of the Nazis.  It's clearly not a stretch to say she's weaponising his ethnicity against him - it's how I immediately interpreted it, and at the very best it's ambiguous in a way that is stupid.

Yeah, there's no other way to read it as far as I can see. The perception filter is disguising something about The Master that would preclude him from being an SS officer. Something visual, clearly, from the use of "perception" and "see". And I don't think there's anything other than his ethnicity that would fit the bill, nor have I read any compelling alternatives.

[Mister Six]

What are the other good bits?

The visualisation of the time vortex, the anamorphic cameras (even if they're rarely used well), the intro sequence visuals, Bradley Walsh, the idea of being a bit more consciously educational (in theory if not practice), Alan Cumming's performance in that one episode, a handful of episodes that were good if not great, casting a female Doctor (Jodie's specific castingis arguable in either direction, I don't want to make a call on that). Erm. That one bit where UNIT got shut down by Trump. Ah. Maybe that's it.

[Thomas]

I agree with Replies and Mister Six. Early in Spyfall (Part 2), this exchange takes place:

DOCTOR: You're not exactly their Aryan archetype.
MASTER: Tiny Teutonic psychic perception filter. Learned it at school. Lets people see what they want to see.

Later, the Doctor - already having outed the Master to the Nazis as a fraud, job done - additionally disables his 'facial perception filter'.

Specifically 'facial'. After the conversation about his 'non-Aryan' appearance (which, as we see in the exchange above, is the reason the Master is using the filter), there's no way to divorce the fact of the Master's ethnicity from the Doctor's decision to expose his face.

[canted_angle_again]

The theme itself isn't great but the visuals of the opening credits are fantastic, much better than Capaldis.

See, there are good things. It's like when people ask me what's good about England, I say 'they have very well engineered plugs'. Just avoid their food, beer and jingoism which they confuse with culture.

[Thomas]

I like Sacha Dhawan even if I think the Master's characterisation and dialogue is wasteful and rubbish. I like his outfit, too, and that he has his people shrinker back.

I liked Alan Cumming, and the crowd playing Percy Shelley's mates.

I liked the Judoon captain being a wimp.

That is my earnest Best Of for the Chibnall Era.

[Kelvin]

Just go back to this for a second, here's the transcript:


So the Doctor had already beaten the Master, there.  Why jam his facial perception filter?

And how are you reading "now they'll see the real you"?  He isn't actually a British spy, so it's not that they are seeing a truth there - the Doctor had fabricated that information to get the Master caught.


She doesn't say "now they'll see you weren't what they thought".  It's about the truth of what he is?  Well they're not going to figure out that he's a Time Lord are they, unless the Doctor means they'll discover he can regenerate but I can't understand why she would skip away with joy saying that.



Sorry, beating this one a bit but I'd love to know what immediately came to everyone's mind if it wasn't the Master's ethnicity.  At the very very best there's massive ambiguity, and I'm not a dunce for reaching the conclusion I reached.

Of course it's about his ethnicity. The stated reason for him wearing a perception filter is because he doesn't look like a typical Nazi Officer. Because he's Asian.

So what other conclusion can you draw when The Doctor removes it, other than she wants the Nazis to see he looks Asian? He wears the filter to hide his ethnicity from racists, so she removes it to reveal that ethnicity.

EDIT: Just read further down the thread and saw Thomas make the same point with the actual quote.

[Alberon]

I quite like the opening titles and theme music.

Chibnall can reach passable level. While there are many problems with his very first episode as showrunner it's not absolutely horrible, but that's him trying his best. The rest of the time his scripts come across as first drafts with obvious big problems. It's either that he can't see it or he doesn't care. Either way it's unforgivable. He's a huge fan so where is the passion?

[Replies From View]

The visualisation of the time vortex, the anamorphic cameras (even if they're rarely used well), the intro sequence visuals, Bradley Walsh, the idea of being a bit more consciously educational (in theory if not practice), Alan Cumming's performance in that one episode, a handful of episodes that were good if not great, casting a female Doctor (Jodie's specific castingis arguable in either direction, I don't want to make a call on that). Erm. That one bit where UNIT got shut down by Trump. Ah. Maybe that's it.

Thing is, I never praise moments like this in isolation.  If the overall tapestry is shite, I'm simply not going to linger on details that are fully overshadowed by everything else.  This isn't exclusive to Chibnall, and making an exception for him would be untruthful.

[Replies From View]

Also there's nothing much more to say about them, is there?  I have seen those examples raised before, now I think of it, and I don't feel they never got sufficiently explored or were just steamrolled with negativity.  They have had their moment in the thread, they're just not good enough to then take flight and become what this thread is about.  You can say "that car is red and I like red" as many times as you like, but repetition doesn't create depth so that discussion ends.


I think we have been fair.  Anyone who actually loves much more than these things about Chibnall's era could enlighten us but they have opted not to in favour of being pissy.

[mothman]

Thing is, I never praise moments like this in isolation.  If the overall tapestry is shite, I'm simply not going to linger on details that are fully overshadowed by everything else.  This isn't exclusive to Chibnall, and making an exception for him would be untruthful.

And that's the problem. Not everyone else operates like that. And where do you draw the line? Or, by the same coin, if you feel the overall tapestry of something isn't shite, do you ignore the bad bits even if they happen in isolation and are overshadowed by everything else? I bet you don't. Why then is it such a problem if others want to laud the bits of the current showrunner's tenure that do work? Because, while I admire your obvious love for the overall show and have a lot of knowledge about it, my God, you do tend to go on a lot about how awful Chibnall is...

[Replies From View]

See; you could be discussing what you like about Chibnall now, but instead we're getting a whine about how unfair it is that you're somehow not allowed to do it.

[Mister Six]

Like Replies, I've repeatedly asked people to wax lyrical about what they love about the Chibnall series - I'm fascinated to know what it is that makes them so enthusiastic about something that I obviously think is dismal - but nobody ever does. Lots of people being negative about the negativity, but nobody seems inclined to be positive instead.

[Alberon]

Despite it all I'm not going to go into the new series expecting to hate it and looking forward to ripping it apart.

Maybe Chibnall has taken criticism onboard. Maybe the one long story format suits him better. Maybe his old mate RTD has been brought onboard early to offer a little help.

It probably won't be better but I won't stop hoping it will be.

[mothman]

See; you could be discussing what you like about Chibnall now, but instead we're getting a whine about how unfair it is that you're somehow not allowed to do it.

Could we keep the bad faith arguments in General Bullshit please? I never said I liked much about the Chibnall era, but there ARE things to like - see Mr6's list earlier (that you blanket waved away as irrelevant). And, nor am I "whining" (another bad faith tactic, seeking to diminish your opponent's position) about anything, nor did I say I wasn't allowed to. All I was doing was commenting on what others have already mentioned - that some posters go to excessive lengths to negate any positive opinions of the show. And it's demonstrably making people not want to post in this thread. And that's a shame. This show means a lot to a lot of people. I'm not saying YOU shouldn't post here. Or that you're wrong about what you post. I just think we should all try to get along and be more considerate.

[Replies From View]

Despite it all I'm not going to go into the new series expecting to hate it and looking forward to ripping it apart.

Maybe Chibnall has taken criticism onboard. Maybe the one long story format suits him better. Maybe his old mate RTD has been brought onboard early to offer a little help.

It probably won't be better but I won't stop hoping it will be.

I've learned that hope can be cruel, and when the odds are so stacked against this turning out okay, I'm not going to get my hopes up because I will only end up being more upset and negative.  Instead, I have detached.

I'm not planning to rip series 13 and the specials apart, let alone "looking forward" to doing that.  I simply won't be watching unless this thread or wider media reveals that Doctor Who is watchable again.  This is because I found the Timeless Child origin too horrible to actively engage with any further.  I didn't watch Revolution of the Daleks and I didn't feel a loss; what I felt instead was less empty than when I bother with a Chibnall episode.

[Midas]

https://youtu.be/mBWwPy0DcMY?t=8

[Replies From View]

Could we keep the bad faith arguments in General Bullshit please? I never said I liked much about the Chibnall era, but there ARE things to like - see Mr6's list earlier (that you blanket waved away as irrelevant). And, nor am I "whining" (another bad faith tactic, seeking to diminish your opponent's position) about anything, nor did I say I wasn't allowed to. All I was doing was commenting on what others have already mentioned - that some posters go to excessive lengths to negate any positive opinions of the show. And it's demonstrably making people not want to post in this thread. And that's a shame. This show means a lot to a lot of people. I'm not saying YOU shouldn't post here. Or that you're wrong about what you post. I just think we should all try to get along and be more considerate.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and if someone says something positive about Chibnall's version of the show that I disagree with, I am also allowed to pick apart those views.  It doesn't define the thread if I choose to do that.  It's just me making a choice and you can ignore it.

I have been quite clear in these last few posts.  The positive moments listed above are simply not enough to become what this thread is about.  People have said they like the theme tune and opening titles for example - okay, great.  Nobody is stopping that conversation going on for several pages if you want to do that yourself, but then what?  Are we then to stop talking until the next positive thing is mentioned 13 weeks later?  Or do you want to keep mentioning the theme tune and opening titles, or are you saying I specifically also need to be positive about them?


I'm just curious as to what you think I should personally be doing since all I am doing in these threads is offering my own truth and everyone is allowed to offer theirs as well.

[Replies From View]

And just to reiterate, regarding "this show means a lot to a lot of people" - the Timeless Child stuff has pushed me away from the show by giving it a shitty origin story that - unless completely erased - could ruin the show for good.  I want to come back to Doctor Who but this isn't a tiny detail for me and it's not going to be washed away by lovely opening titles or a pleasant teal and orange colour grade.


If anyone wants to enlighten me about how the Timeless Child revelations are actually excellent then please go ahead.  If your aim is for us all to get along then it could achieve more than you appreciate.