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Started by bgmnts, September 07, 2021, 02:38:02 PM
Quote from: touchingcloth on September 08, 2021, 10:29:43 PM Too many stories of eligible people receiving their benefits too late, or having to jump through an unnecessary number of hoops at the least.
Quote from: touchingcloth on September 08, 2021, 10:29:43 PMThere are already things which aren't means tested in the UK (I should maybe say England) like bus passes for over 60s, winter fuel allowance, basic child benefit.Means testing isn't cost-free to administer, so I think it makes sense to avoid the burden in certain cases, and I can see why it's easier to run things with a set of universal benefits on one side of the ledger and universal taxes on the other, because the alternative is the costs and inefficiencies of means testing everyone, or at least the costs of random audits on some people, like with self-declared tax. I could probably be persuaded by an argument for not including UBI in taxable income, which is how child benefits work as far as I understand.I think the past decade of Tory-led austerity has put me heavily off means testing. Too many stories of eligible people receiving their benefits too late, or having to jump through an unnecessary number of hoops at the least.
Quote from: Zetetic on September 08, 2021, 10:33:46 PMBut think of the alternative?! Being exploited by a freeloader.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 10:38:51 PMProgressive taxation is a form of means testing.
Quote from: Zetetic on September 08, 2021, 10:32:25 PMOr to be subjected to, far more importantly.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 10:38:51 PMProgressive taxation is a form of means testing. UBI would give a set amount of money to everyone then you would have to means test people to see who would have to return it via taxation.
Quote from: Zetetic on September 08, 2021, 10:45:05 PMThe main problem with means-testing is that while it's a superficially attractive idea on the basis of fairness, it rapidly makes services shit, the experience of trying to access those services even more shit and eventually everyone ends up despising the state as worse than useless.If you're bad off enough to qualify for a service, you now have to expend extra time and energy proving that this is case - time and energy that you don't have because you're scum. When you finally do access the service it's fucking terrible because the only people who can use it are scum - who wants to make services good for scum?If you're well off enough not to qualify for a service, you get to be told that the relationship between you and the state is entirely one-way and that the services that you've paid taxes into for decades aren't for people like you.The former hates the state for making their awful lives even worse - seemingly as a punishment for having a shit life - and the latter hates the state for being a mechanism to distribute funds to a feckless underclass that they're strongly encouraged to other.
Quote from: touchingcloth on September 08, 2021, 10:55:35 PMIn practice, you wouldn't, not nearly for everyone.Anyone on PAYE would (or could) end up having their UBI reflected on their payslips, and their tax would be worked out from there. Anyone filing a self assessment with no PAYE income would do the same, and the taxation system already caters for people who earn some income under PAYE and other income that they self assess. Having UBI as something which is means tested would result in everyone being assessed for it, rather than a relatively small proportion of people, a little like how in the US everyone has to file a tax return. I guess means testing also raises the question of how minors and adolescents are treated. I don't know how things are handled now, but my student loan was means tested based on my parents income. Would you do the same with UBI, and build income inequality into the system from birth?
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 10:56:20 PMIm talking about means testing in the broad sense
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 10:59:40 PMIm just pointing out the problems, I'm not pretending I have the solution. You are doing a form of means testing retrospectively that is all.This is just one of the problems I raised.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 09:00:04 PMYes that is the kind of additional aspects that need to be added that I was alluding to but it still has big problems. So you need aggressive taxation, something that generally doesn't go down well. Giving rich people UBI and then taking it away via taxation, basically just adds another amount of money rich people can claim is being taxed from them.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 09:00:04 PMThis is basically the same as means testing UBI prior to handing it out; and by recouping UBI after by taxation you are essentially making a set of bullshit job.......someone that is having to take back money that didn't need to be given in the first place. I've got a question for you on this; what benefit does giving rich people money you are later going to remove have? are there not potential logistical problems in ensuring the money is returned?
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 09:00:04 PMWhy is this an advantage to the rich? How is this not more expensive than the current system? the cost savings are in a streamlined service that deposit money into accounts; like Uber for social security (non-health related ESA doesn't cost a lot; it never did; there is no grand scale benefit fraud team and there never has been - unemployment benefits amounts to 1% (£2bn) of welfare expenditure).
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 09:00:04 PMWhat it does is sound great for people that just do not want to work, receive a citizens payment and take up hobbies or personal interests; this is not the whole population, it doesn't' fit in with lots of other problems; like the very well known relationship between inactivity, poor mental health and early death.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 09:00:04 PMI'm be interested to know the problems with it; most things have consequences and it is the consideration of these consequences and solutions to them that are interesting
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 08, 2021, 09:00:04 PMYes but you need people to do them; how do you construct a society that on one hand gives out money for people to live comfortable lives, with no stigma of not working and pay people enough to look after people that need that support?
Quote from: Jockice on September 09, 2021, 10:55:58 AMSo I thought: 'oh well, I can get on with my PhD now.' Which never happened.
Quote from: Jockice on September 09, 2021, 10:55:58 AMI have applied for several (part-time) jobs in the last couple of years and the only interview I've had was for the charity I do voluntary stuff for and I think that was just as a courtesy as they had already decided to give the job to someone else. Which is actually fair enough. She's more qualified for that particular role than I am.
Quote from: Mobbd on September 09, 2021, 11:08:15 AMIf you don't mind me asking, what happened? Could you still do it? Would you want to?I sometimes wrestle with that option too. For me it's a lack of personal motivation because I don't like the increasingly corporate/managerial style of the university at which I'd most likely do it.You're probably being hard on yourself there. I doubt they were just being pointlessly kind. I suspect that, even if there really was a favourite, they valued your skills and wanted to hear the case for them, to see if they trumped the favourite. It sounds to me like you were at least a player (naff term, sorry, but you know what I mean).
Quote from: Mobbd on September 09, 2021, 10:23:03 AMProgressive, not aggressive. And a single individual's annual UBI payment is such a small amount of money by the standards of the rich that they should scarcely be concerned about the "loss." The common good case for it can also be made clear [to the rich]. And if there are still objections from the 1% or the 5%, it doesn't matter so long as the informed majority consents. A minority of people currently object to vaccination but we do it anyway for the common good.
QuoteIt is not the same as means testing at all. See Zetetic's notes about that because they are correct.
QuoteThe advantage to giving to the rich and then taking away has already been explained: that it reduces bureaucratic complexity to a single non-means-tested and potentially automated system (elegant simplicity) and removes the stigma of a "handouts" system seen to benefit only the poor.
QuoteI almost made the mistake of saying that the system of UBI is not supposed to advantage the rich but it actually does!.....The rich should not want to live in a world (a) of suffering and (b) in which a malnourished, over-stressed, bored, unhealthy, uncomprehending, and angry population are providing services for the rich...
QuoteIt allows people to walk away from bad working situations. Your boss who doesn't care about bad working conditions or only cares about the bottom line will no longer be able to hold you hostage. You can walk away and either become part of the hobbyist community you describe but you might also become a self-starter or, simply, look for a better job.It will also economically empower women (and other home-based/non-employed partners) to walk away from bad relationships/marriages to which they are currently economically tied.
QuoteThere is potentially too much to be gained. We should be extremely careful but have courage (not faith).
QuoteResearchers have found that while levels of subjective wellbeing initially rise as free time increases, the trend does not necessarily hold for very high levels of leisure."The sweet spot is a moderate amount of free time," said Dr Marissa Sharif, a co-author of the study from the University of Pennsylvania. "We found that having too much time was associated with lower subjective wellbeing due to a lacking sense of productivity and purpose."
Quote from: jamiefairlie on September 09, 2021, 04:17:49 PMIt's a tricky one that should work from an economic perspective but will probably fail because of human nature. I was brought up a Catholic (the best training to become a strict aetheist) but even at the age of five and being taught the parable of the prodigal son, I was 'hang on, how's that fair?'. Following that up with the one about the guy who turns up at the end of the week and gets paid the same as the mugs who worked all week and you can see that this Jesus guy's a bit off in his thinking.TLDR, fairness seems to be an instinctive concept in primates (monkeys show it too in studies), so that would be a big problem to overcome.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 09, 2021, 04:22:48 PMMight seem like I'm giving you rough ride here but at least you tried to answers some of the problems rather than just going ah so you want people to starve ay! My feelings are pretty radical on this I just don't see UBI as radically advantageous to poor people.
Quote from: Mobbd on September 09, 2021, 05:03:17 PMHaha, well I "tried" to answer your questions based on a lot of reading and experience on my part. I'm sorry my answers didn't ring true to you. Never mind! As you were.
Quote from: touchingcloth on September 09, 2021, 05:23:29 PMSo you just want people to starve?
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 09, 2021, 05:21:46 PMWell they didn't really address anything like assets, and impact of UBI in relation to inequality and the residual workforce doing jobs that are not "bullshit". I'm not being bitchy I'm genuinely interested in what the answers are to these questions are; probably things that would need to be considered for any workable version of UBI to be implemented.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 09, 2021, 05:21:46 PMAs I was trying to highlight all the advantages of UBI; empowerment of women, mobility with work, increase in base rate income for unemployed are achievable without UBI and the associated problems; it was the advantages of UBI beyond what could be done with an improved social security system, apart from the Uberisation element which would have been more interesting to know.
Quote from: Mobbd on September 09, 2021, 06:08:04 PMBut you didn't ask me those questions. If you had, I would have answered. But no more, buddy! You've made me very sleepy. Nighty-night.
QuoteI don't really know what you mean by Uberisation, by the way. If I heard the word in isolation, I'd assume it means the Silicon Valley-inspired disruption or privitisation of what were once public goods or intangibles. But from the context in which you deploy it, I think it means something else.
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