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20 years since them slags smashed into the twin towers...

Started by Butchers Blind, September 10, 2021, 12:32:14 AM

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Zetetic

Quote from: Phoenix Lazarus on September 15, 2021, 05:44:39 PM
Because of course Islamic terrorists are so focused and defined in what effect they want their terrorism to achieve aside of the destruction, death and injury caused.
A bloke who self-radicalises off an internet "comedy" forum, maybe not - although he'll still have discernable motivations.

A plan involving dozens of people, months of organisation, training and funding - I think we can accept that they had some sort of rough aims in mind, even if these were diffuse and alternately very short and very long term.

Buelligan

Quote from: Phoenix Lazarus on September 15, 2021, 05:44:39 PM
Because of course Islamic terrorists are so focused and defined in what effect they want their terrorism to achieve aside of the destruction, death and injury caused.

Being fair though (and rather serious), there was a lad from round here that did a terrorism a few years ago (it's alright, they shot him dead, like a dog) but anyway, I know people who knew him and said for 100% sure, that lad had a drugs thing going on and a problem with his dad but he was not even a teensy bit of an Islamic terrorist.  Just a sad mad lad who lost control for a bit but was, unfortunately for him, brown, so, according to the record, he was a terrorist and we had the President down to say so.

It may be useful, when considering what Islamic terrorists are focused on, to also think about who they are.

Zetetic

9/11 is also notable when it comes to planning because you'd think that at least some of the people involved in planning it had a decent idea that this was something you could only really do once on a few decades (because the response to hijackings and the risk of hijackings would alter so substantially).

Dex Sawash

The answer to the,"why those flights" question was supposed to be they wanted heavy planes with full fuel loads so trans continental ones are usually big and have full tanks. Those tend to be morning or evening flights ,especially if you want to do 6 at once[nb]most of you won't know about #5 and #6[/nb]
Might as well synch them up in the morning.

chveik

Quote from: Phoenix Lazarus on September 15, 2021, 05:44:39 PM
Because of course Islamic terrorists are so focused and defined in what effect they want their terrorism to achieve aside of the destruction, death and injury caused.

well causing death and destruction is the primary goal given the nature of terrorism but when it implies some planning they don't chose their targets randomly (like the Nice truck attack, which happened on the french national day in a quite symbolic location).

idunnosomename

god everybody forgets that and that was so incredibly horrible

Quote from: chveik on September 15, 2021, 06:05:37 PM
well causing death and destruction is the primary goal given the nature of terrorism

But the IRA didn't just kill people for its own sake, but because they wanted to drive British forces out of Ulster and reunite Ireland independently of us.  What are Islamic terrorists equivalent aims?

kngen

Quote from: Phoenix Lazarus on September 15, 2021, 06:22:40 PM
But the IRA didn't just kill people for its own sake, but because they wanted to drive British forces out of Ulster and reunite Ireland independently of us.  What are Islamic terrorists equivalent aims?

From Wikipedia: In bin Laden's November 2002 "Letter to America", he said that al-Qaeda's motives for the attacks included Western support for attacking Muslims in Somalia, supporting Russian atrocities against Muslims in Chechnya, supporting the Indian oppression against Muslims in Kashmir, support for Israel in Lebanon, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, US support of Israel, and sanctions against Iraq.

Probably not the reply The Proclaimers were expecting in response to their 1987 hit.


Buelligan

Quote from: Phoenix Lazarus on September 15, 2021, 06:22:40 PM
But the IRA didn't just kill people for its own sake, but because they wanted to drive British forces out of Ulster and reunite Ireland independently of us.  What are Islamic terrorists equivalent aims?

You may think it's worth considering that these people (the terrorists) don't even have a professional or governing body.  Useless.

Goldentony

will never forget the day after when ordinary people of all backgrounds came to ground zero just to help -


mothman

Quote from: Buelligan on September 15, 2021, 04:24:17 PM
I don't see the point of the WTC though, really.  If it was up to me it'd be -

  • Whitehouse
  • Capitol
  • Pentagon x 2
  • AOB
Whilst I accept personal choices and preferences are bound to come into it, I cannot, for the life of me, see their logic.

First thought was, AOC?! Why?! She's awesome!

Who can say why they went for the targets they did? A few years back I walked the full length of the National Mall and back, from the Capitol past the Washington Monument, brief detour to look at the White House, past the WW2 memorial to the Lincoln Memorial, and stopping by the Vietnam Memorial on the way back. It's a hell of a walk! And the sheer symbolism of all those locations... It feels obscene to say so, like playing Fantasy 9/11 Targets, but it does strike me as odd that they didn't go Capitol/WH/Wash & Linc Mems.

Zetetic

None of those really symbolise American power overseas, or in Arabia in particular.

(The closest would be the Vietnam Memorial - but because it represents a sort-of defeat by an ideology that Wahhabists despised also.)

Quote from: mothman on September 15, 2021, 09:11:46 PM
Who can say why they went for the targets they did?
A bunch of people, presumably, even now. (Edit: And all the stuff said by people involved over the last couple of decades, as others have pointed in.)

Replies From View

Quote from: Dex Sawash on September 15, 2021, 06:00:35 PM
The answer to the,"why those flights" question was supposed to be they wanted heavy planes with full fuel loads so trans continental ones are usually big and have full tanks. Those tend to be morning or evening flights ,especially if you want to do 6 at once[nb]most of you won't know about #5 and #6[/nb]
Might as well synch them up in the morning.

still annoying though

The disruption caused by attacking the WTC had a bigger culture effect than going for something with a more symbolic value might have. The before/after shift in attitude to things like security and business travel looms larger in cultural consciousness than the building itself ever did as a symbol. There's also the horror that comes with a civilian target too, especially one that people assumed would be safe.

I think the immediate prevalence and endurance of conspiracy theories speak to how "unthinkable" and "impossible" it seemed. Something that proved literally unbelievable for tens of thousands of people whose ideologies wouldn't permit them to accept it. The stories circulating hours after about being told "don't come to work tomorrow" by Muslim/Jewish/MiB colleagues and acquaintences give a bit of insight to the collective psychology and emotional impact too, I think. Espcecially as those stories are now urban legend fixtures.

An attack on a military target, landmark or government agency probably wouldn't have had that effect.

Replies From View

Quote from: Phoenix Lazarus on September 15, 2021, 06:22:40 PM
But the IRA didn't just kill people for its own sake, but because they wanted to drive British forces out of Ulster and reunite Ireland independently of us.  What are Islamic terrorists equivalent aims?

cause parents to put better gifts in party bags

Zetetic

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on September 15, 2021, 09:16:35 PM
An attack on a military target, landmark or government agency probably wouldn't have had that effect.
And they did attempt to attack those targets as well on the day.


Yeah, and the Pentagon attack doesn't figure nearly as much in peoples awareness as the WTC. I think you'd have to see something as unlikely as the Whitehouse getting hit before it would equal it.

WTC attack changed everything and made people feel unsafe in a way that we're still feeling the effects of. The paranoia (and xenophobia) still persists, and will persist for a few decades more at least. I don't want to make a "ya gotta hand it to them" post but it was a horrifically effective target. Especially if you imagine it vs a purely symbolic target like Mt Rushmore or the Statue of Liberty.

dissolute ocelot

Hitting an office block in a big city scares people who go to tall office blocks in big cities, and plays into people's natural fears about how skyscrapers work and why they don't fall down. A lot of people were worried about going up in skyscrapers and worrying about planes hitting cities in the aftermath of 9/11. Look at what happened in November 2001 when American Airlines Flight 587 crashed in New York after the copilot was a bit heavy on the rudder and it snapped off: everyone thought "Fuck, it's Bin Laden again!" You have to balance that everyday terror with not being seen to be a shit terrorist, like guys who blow up buses.

The WTC towers hit that sweet horror-movie spot of being relatable but still larger than life. If they'd just decided to drive badly or shoot a person a week they might have killed a lot of people over time, but nobody would go, "Gee they drove badly! Let's invade a random Middle East country." Because otherwise George Bush would be nuking every BMW dealership in the country. And of course Bin Laden did want some reprisals, so he couldn't be too subtle.

Zetetic

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on September 15, 2021, 09:24:18 PM
Especially if you imagine it vs a purely symbolic target like Mt Rushmore or the Statue of Liberty.
And I think those examples show the problem with a lot of "symbolic targets" that you might suggest - they only really make sense to Americans and the imagined boogiemen, not the people undertaking the attacks.

mothman

And although the damage to that section of the interior of the Pentagon was considerable, the external impact zone was less impressive, at least not compared to the WTC; but then that gained in impressiveness by collapsing. If the towers hadn't collapsed, the ipa r sites would still be impressive by being so much more visible, looming over Manhattan, a constant reminder. Though to be honest they'd probably have hung ginormous American flags over the scars...

Quote from: Zetetic on September 15, 2021, 09:39:29 PM
And I think those examples show the problem with a lot of "symbolic targets" that you might suggest - they only really make sense to Americans and the imagined boogiemen, not the people undertaking the attacks.

Yeah, and I think if you assume a jingoistic logic and action movie nationalism about "symbolic" targets that represent freedom, democracy, etc it doesn't really think of things from the position of Americans or westerners themselve after the attack.

Thinking - wow, if they hit a symbol of our freedom I'd be SO MAD and just throbbing with patriotic juices is a lot easier or even more comforting than thinking - if they hit a tower block or a transport hub I'd be shitting myself literally every day of my life for a decade after because an invisible precarity has been revealed.

I don't think the USA has successfully reclaimed WTC as a symbol of freedom or defiance. It'll only ever mean the tragic loss of thousands who thought they were totally safe.

idunnosomename

i doubt crashing a plane into mount rushmore would do much since it's granite. you'd probably damage some details and blacken the surface but it could pretty easily be restored. the statue of liberty you'd be better getting a bomb inside really. and yes, neither of them are the sort of things that piss off Wahhabists. Well except that they are idolatrous.

There is the sheer gall of the Port Authority making its new buildings intended for banking tenants the "World" Trade Center that surely pissed the Islamists caught between the US and the Soviets most of all.

Zetetic

Also Mount Rushmore is pretty rubbish already. Don't want to risk improving something by accident.

Quote from: idunnosomename on September 15, 2021, 09:52:42 PM
i doubt crashing a plane into mount rushmore would do much since it's granite. you'd probably damage some details and blacken the surface but it could pretty easily be restored.

Giving you the crucial window of opportunity to airdrop the giant speakers playing Al Jolson songs and then the President has to go on TV and tearfully cancel George 'greatest human being ever' Washington

touchingcloth

The biggest tragedy of 9/11 is that Parkinson never got Bin Laden on to ask about how they went about choosing targets and planning attacks.

idunnosomename

also that Osama couldn't answer to Rod Hull and Emu on the same sofa.

chveik

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on September 15, 2021, 09:46:38 PM
I don't think the USA has successfully reclaimed WTC as a symbol of freedom or defiance.

a trial might have helped, instead of killing osama in that way for "electability' purposes. obviously it was way too late, with people still rotting in guantanamo for the last twenty years.

JaDanketies

Can't believe some of you guys don't think the WTC was a great target tbh.

Some of the appraisals we are doing itt might sound tasteless out of context.

Mr Banlon

Quote from: Buelligan on September 15, 2021, 04:24:17 PM
I don't see the point of the WTC though, really.  If it was up to me it'd be -

  • Whitehouse
  • Capitol
  • Pentagon x 2
  • AOB
Whilst I accept personal choices and preferences are bound to come into it, I cannot, for the life of me, see their logic.
The Alamo
Harvard Yard
Washington Monument
Golden Gate Bridge
Graceland

idunnosomename

Sleeping Beauty's Castle
Hollywood sign
one of those big balls of yarn off the highway
Skywalker Ranch
Detroit
that arch thing in the midwest